Make foreign buffs team only ?

[Lifewaster]

I wonder if this might reduce ppu influence in fights. If a random ppu wanders upon 2 players dueling, he wont be able to heal/buff the combatants.

Likewise in a monk-fest op war , many of the runners will end up not teamed with several of the multiple ppus thus those extra ppus will be less effective.

However, this would also eliminate nib buffing , which is the main method of killing ppus, but considering the most powerful form of nibbing is done by apu/ppu combos (hab+nib S) these days , then maybe thats not a bad thing either...

The main effect I think would be that surplus ppus would find themselves a lot less effective compared to a surplus fighter. (and if we eventually add a parashock nerf , then they would become almost redundent able to do nothing but heal themselves)

edit : Note, if you chose to make heal team only then heal group would heal only team mambers...

[LiL T]

It won't change anything so I voted keep things as they are .

[jini]

Sounds a bit complicated lifewaster.
First of all we need to address the problem in order to find a solution and the problem is huge atn lol. Where to start? Holy heal? para? parabarel? apu/ppu? melee para? netlags?
For me, a solution would be to completely eliminate ppus that unballance everything freeing skill points. Then introduce some better protection for apus, readjust their weapons a bit to match others and eliminate para guns.

On the other hand as we are now we have a lot of variation or we are being able to at least, provided we dont exagerate. But we do, and end result is what we experience today.

A more effective solution might have been to introduce some pararemoving guns, rifles pistols or canons. Or fix those damn anti drugs. They cost a fortune, you take 2-3 and you get flashed!!! Simplest solution of all: antifreeze drugs drugflashfree with 3 uses. However note here how hard and mana expensive and time consuming it is to cast holy para and how easy it would be to just eat a no effects pill that cancels this effect.

Some ideas:
1. Introduce a new set of ppu psi spells (low level) for para removal, give it to spies/pes and fix antipara drugs drugflash (1 use per drug).
2. Lower frequency of the melee shocker. This is a disgrace as it is.
3. Lower crahn shelter requirements for spy usage w/o drugs, the spy is the ONLY char left that needs drugs this should be reworked.
4. Give poison pistol/rifle or ammo mods

[john irons]

not gonna hapen

[Scanner Darkly]

Interesting, but the only effect I can see option 2 and 3 having is making PPUs more immortal and their appendages stronger...

[LiL T]

This idea is not going to help the problem at all, what it will do is cause people to bring yet MORE PPU monks to make smaller teams of fighters with there own PPU ...

[commerzgandalf]

dont like that idea
buffing is possible to everyone
shitbuffing would disapper jeah
but ist kinda wicked buffs only for team

[jini]

Interesting, but the only effect I can see option 2 and 3 having is making PPUs more immortal and their appendages stronger...
how come?

[Lifewaster]

Interesting, but the only effect I can see option 2 and 3 having is making PPUs more immortal and their appendages stronger...


Well thats valid , but tbh, the only immortal ppus are the ones with overspecced runspeed which coupled with lag and clipping issues, allows them to avoid most Habs and nibs. A simple change such as seperate runspeed caps per class to force lower runspeed onto monks could fix that.

Slower moving monks could then be killable without nibs.

[LiL T]

Well thats valid , but tbh, the only immortal ppus are the ones with overspecced runspeed which coupled with lag and clipping issues, allows them to avoid most Habs and nibs. A simple change such as seperate runspeed caps per class to force lower runspeed onto monks could fix that.

Slower moving monks could then be killable without nibs.

There runspeed is fine but the netcode is not, the main problem I see is the defence of the PPU is too strong, every other game I played the healer class must be protected. In this game the healer class is very hard to kill and makes other people very hard to kill, I'd much like to see PPU's having to stay 50 meters back from the fight. There self defence should be weaker than the defence they provide there fighters, maybe they could stealth using a PPU spell version. Just incase someone from the enemy team gets too close, this or nerf them to fuck but something has to be done to PPU's .

[Lifewaster]

TThere self defence should be weaker than the defence they provide there fighters, maybe they could stealth using a PPU spell version. Just incase someone from the enemy team gets too close, this or nerf them to fuck but something has to be done to PPU's .


Well to fix that , I would remove heal sanctum totally, and put the 50% malus onto self cast s/d also ... that would make ppus a lot more killable in thelselves.

[Zeninja]

This game is already owned by insane (not to say "wannabe skinheads") clans in total isolation, or at least people using voice softs and always fighting in teams with the same partners, knowing each other themselves perfectly well. Do you really think they're not going to adapt and take advantage of what you suggest ?

All you get bringing such modification to the game, is the perfect opposite of what you think : more and more monk teams in OPs, no place for people who's not part of the last new leet uber clan, casual/solo gamers overwhelmed once again.

Keep things as they are thanks.

[Kame]

maybe just make holy spells harder to cap, or maybe just holy ppu spells

make it so a moveon ppu cant cap a holy shelt. that hed need 4 psi imps.

just maybe...

[Koshinn]

Remove all shields and heals above blessed (keep in long buffs). Nerf blessed shields a bit too. then make para cast at 105/min so PPUs can possibly survive something.

[Zeninja]

There runspeed is fine but the netcode is not
Imho monks runspeed should be DRASTICALLY lowered, for dozen of reasons including roleplay and pvp balance. Come on some monks out here are running like Ben Johnson without even taking one single drug, this is just fucking ridiculous.

Didn't you ask yourself for tank's runspeed to get "unerfed" ? I'm not for a change on tanks, but I must say nerfing monk's runspeed would be an alternative step in that way.

[MrChumble]

If they did make S/D/H team-cast only I'd give serious consideration to returning to Neocron. It wasn't my only bugbear with the game, but it was high on the list.

The Poll doesn't seem to support the change, but it's worth remembering that people who get pissed off and leave are less inclined to vote :lol:

[james_finn]

tbh the reason most people have voted to keep it the same is that they believe that the only way that they can kill the PPU's is to noob buff them. That imho is the problem, people think the only way to take down the PPU is the noob buff, and its killing the game! I personally am for the tone down the PvP percentage on the spells!

But I am all for forcing team only for S/D but I dont agree with making H's team only!

Delphi

[jini]

We have heard enough ideas about this and los have already been writen. It's about time to see some fixes. KK should do those fixes. Maybe by taking small steps to see the sideffects but they got to start it somehow.

And another thing: its really very disapointing to see ppus refusing to use para and the majority to use it. Lifewater and those that dont use para, please go back using it full speed. In fact USE only this spell. At least this way we got an oportunity to indicate the source of the problem

[Lifewaster]

Yep there have been tons and tons of monk fixes suggested, maybe something will change in 2.1 , I dunno.

I think maybe the prob that there hasnt been major monk fixes yet is that everyone by now has a monk alt . If a ppu needs killing , ppl just log their apu/ppu alts etc.

Its like the no-para thing, KK arent gonna change stuff unless ppl start behaving as if they want it the game . If KK see a ton of anti-monk threads, then next day those same ppl are running about on apu/ppu alts doing the exact thing they were complaining about , then it doesnt help the argument much.

Heres more stuff that could be done today and monks would still be more then viable:

Monk runspeed cut in half
APU dmg cut to 576
PPU dmg cut to 400
APU freq cut to 92
PARA mana cost doubled and freq cut in half
HAB freq cut in half
All spell range cut to 56



And even better idea: If we cant bring ourselves to fix monks, then lets just change all the reticle weapons into copbot form, with beams down from the sky and no aiming or line of sight needed....might get a few more non monks at an op fights then...

[Scanner Darkly]

how come?

Point 2 and 3: If you get antibuffed as a PPU, you can't get foreign sheltered/deflectored under these rules.

Point 3: removes any newb healing.

final result makes PPUs stronger since the best way to kill a PPU is to get a foreign shelter on them - and this option is removed with these changes.

[Zeninja]

Again, I really dislike the team idea you suggested first. But :



Heres more stuff that could be done today and monks would still be more then viable:

Monk runspeed cut in half
APU dmg cut to 576
PPU dmg cut to 400
APU freq cut to 92
PARA mana cost doubled and freq cut in half
HAB freq cut in half
All spell range cut to 56
Sounds really great to me (though I love my monk), except for the HAB freq which I like the way it is now. Now this is all about finding the right values depending on factors that only devs have knowledge of.

I think the main thing to keep in mind if any changes has to be done, is that the way monks are played now shouldn't be fundamentally reworked (e.g : reticle). I used to appreciate Dirus attempt to fix it, but the weakness of his suggestions was probably this U-turn on the way people would have had to play their monks : imo tweaking the dmg/freq/range is the only reliable solution that would satisfy the most without having to wrong a lot. Not to mention unexpected repercussions on game balance by removing spells, adding a reticle, restricting single/foreign capabilities etc.

One more thing : don't forget the PVM balance before suggesting anything. Loads of features still have to be added, loads of bugs to be fixed, I would hate all of those postponed due to any heavy rework needed on whole mobs (which would sold out into another abandon of "fixing the ppu pblm" anyway, I'm afraid to say)

[Lifewaster]

final result makes PPUs stronger since the best way to kill a PPU is to get a foreign shelter on them - and this option is removed with these changes.


Theres obviously something drastically wrong with monks if the only viable way to kill ppus is nib-sheltering.

And the problem with the current "balance" of using nib shelter , is that ultimately apu+ppu combos become even more powerful vs any other group of runners.

APU+PPU vs PPU+tank+pe+spy ...... what happens ? it basically comes down to whether the apu+ppu combo can nib Shelter and kill the opposing ppu , if they do they win.....

Taking away nib Shelter may make single ppus harder to kill , but it would also make the apu/ppu combo a lot less deadly in general which would allow for the other fighter classes to play more then a bystander role in these cases.

[Zeninja]

Two questions :

- Is there any equivalent of the Defl/Shelter in another videogame/rpg that may allow us making some comparison to look into that nib buff problem again ?

- Why not bringing back those *** *** *** spirit mods ?