View Full Version : Question to the anti-PPU crowd.
Paper Dragon
27-10-05, 20:24
Have you ever considered countering them with a skilled Droner instead of asking for the entire PPU system to be nerfed?
u cant kill a tank if he's getting ppu support as a drohner.
if the apu gets support he'll kill your raptor within 2, 3 seconds (if he has any place to hide to get healed up, like crp)
a spy pr pe can stealth away if the ppu cant outheal the raptor.
droner is not the answer to the ppu problem
Paper Dragon
27-10-05, 20:29
u cant kill a tank if he's getting ppu support as a drohner.
the ppu will outheal the raptor easily.
only shitty ppus can be killed by a droner
If the PPU/Tank is getting support, then why expect to win in the first place?
That's my point. PPUs are often the reason behind complaints when it comes to group PvP, so why not use Drones in a support role? Or is it just a case of clamouring for the ability to bring down a PPU without any outside assistance?
what about this :
droner + healing light spy vs. tank + ppu ? uuuuhhhh guess what ?
dude, the droner is a way to kill nib ppus, or players with a crappy ppu supporting them...
nothing else ...
every skilled ppu will laugh at drones.
Paper Dragon
27-10-05, 20:33
what about this :
droner + healing light spy vs. tank + ppu ? uuuuhhhh guess what ?
dude, the droner is a way to kill nib ppus, or players with a crappy ppu supporting them...
nothing else ...
every skilled ppu will laugh at drones.
If the PPU is skilled, then doesn't he deserve to win in the first place? Especially if he has a GeneTank as his pet?
what about if the droner and the rifle spy are more skilled ? hey,its useless to talk about skill as a long as a ppu is involved ...
Paper Dragon
27-10-05, 20:38
what about if the droner and the rifle spy are more skilled ? hey,its useless to talk about skill as a long as a ppu is involved ...
Why would the Rifle Spy be letting the Tank get close in the first place if he was "more skilled"?
becoz of the ppu :rolleyes:
he destroys all the skill of his enemies ...
what about if the droner and the rifle spy are more skilled ? hey,its useless to talk about skill as a long as a ppu is involved ...
well i horribly suck at ppu
droner + ppu vs ppu + tank would seem like a fair fight.
nope, coz the ppu will outheal the raptor dmg.
the raptor will drop without dealing that much dmg.
and the drone cant heal itself, otherwise there wont be enuff ammo left to hurt the tank :rolleyes:
Kame, have u ever tried it out ? yes ? i doubt it ...
i did. and i know what i'm talking about :rolleyes:
hey paper dragon, what about bm/plaza ppu fights ?
Bugs Gunny
27-10-05, 21:26
Because when 5 skilled fighters go against a good apu-ppu team they all die.
Parashock and holy heal are the reason ppus deserve to be nerfed.
well, as fun as having an army of droners 2x the army of ppus to fight them would be...wed all have to be droners....
i really dont know how exactly ppus are overpowered and how they arent...all i know is with one i can actually kill someone all the time :lol: and without its about 50/50
ok fine, 30/70
Have you ever considered countering them with a skilled Droner instead of asking for the entire PPU system to be nerfed?
A well skilled PPU can outheal a Raptor. A bad one will fall.
I'm not asking for the entire PPU system to be nerfed. It needs a little balancing in a few areas. One of them is para, the effect it has is way too strong.
Scanner Darkly
27-10-05, 22:19
Whatever you do don't use a Mosquito!*
* this works pretty well if you want to stop a ppu healing...
Asurmen Spec Op
27-10-05, 22:44
Have you ever considered that they get alot more bonus from 1 ppu then 2 of any other class?
fuck, 3 of most if they are good
Dribble Joy
27-10-05, 23:54
The answer to one classes issues should not be the singular necessity of the use of another.
NEEDING a droner to combat PPUs is plain daft.
PvP is far to centralised, people should be able to play the class they want without fear of viability, not the class they need to.
KK already said that there was a problem with PPUs. Too bad they fired him/he quit
wow the most retarded ppu thread yet :D
Paper Dragon
28-10-05, 02:47
wow the most retarded ppu thread yet :D
Yes, asking people to think instead of immediatly asking for a nerf is a terrible, terrible thing.
a bad ppu can be brought down by anything
a good ppu can be brought down by an apu...
a medium ppu can be brought down by a pe or tank or apu...
Lots of ways to kill PPUs..
The problem isnīt the PPUs, the problems are all the people attacking you whilst youīre killing the PPUs...
Sure..
If you kill the PPU first, they need another PPU to keep the team alive/rezz the first ppu or they will just drop dead.
But if you kill all the other chars first, the PPU will either be forced to run for his life, or try to resurrect.. and we all know how much damage a resurrecting ppu takes if he doesnīt have a ppu supporting him whilst heīs rezzing...
The correct answer is : A lot.
And if you canīt do a lot of damage to a resurrecting ppu... then maybe you should consider that you are bad at PvP.
Lifewaster
28-10-05, 03:04
Because when 5 skilled fighters go against a good apu-ppu team they all die.
Parashock and holy heal are the reason ppus deserve to be nerfed.
I wonder how hard it would be for KK to simply try a fix of implementing the 50% foreign cast malus onto every single ppu module.
Then holy heal and holy para would be half strength...
Wouldnt satisfy most, but would sure be a help......
Asurmen Spec Op
28-10-05, 04:43
Itd satisfy me
I wonder how hard it would be for KK to simply try a fix of implementing the 50% foreign cast malus onto every single ppu module.
Then holy heal and holy para would be half strength...
Wouldnt satisfy most, but would sure be a help......
Then when would para ever be at full strength?
OMG make it so if you miscast para (as in you cast it but literally miss), you para yourself, like you would for a heal or a shield, except it's para. And it's at 100% effectiveness on yourself, but 50% on foreign targets. Then remove the anti-para spell. AHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. HAHAHAHAHHAHA. HAHA. HAH. HA. A. .
Lifewaster
28-10-05, 06:08
Then when would para ever be at full strength?
OMG make it so if you miscast para (as in you cast it but literally miss), you para yourself, like you would for a heal or a shield
That would be quite nice, even better if they did that to all psi modules....90% of the casulties at op wars would be from monks HLing themselves.
Quite a lovely way to end monkocron.
A well skilled PPU can outheal a Raptor. A bad one will fall.
tbh, a skilled ppu should be able to outheal more ...
uPs ppus were able to outheal 2 raptors, one of our best outhealed 3.
Bugs Gunny
28-10-05, 08:01
Now that would indeed be hilarious :-)
Instead of tellung us how to counter PPUs or talking about new stuff or readding spirit mods or whatever why not just nerf the ppus? At least para. Removes the skill. And thats what NC is about.
Fuck PPUs. Fuck para. ;)
> The problem isnīt the PPUs, the problems are all the people attacking you whilst youīre killing the PPUs...
Come on.
The reason one cannot successfully kill the PPU is because the PPU is being supported by the other classes. Should we nerf the other classes because they are supporting the PPU?
However, I'd still like to see para removed because it takes the fun out of the game.
john irons
28-10-05, 15:11
I work for parashock
So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies.
Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.
But trust me.... You don't.
I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you dont know what you are talking about.
This is how bad info gets passed around.
If you dont know about the topic....Dont make yourself sound like you do.
Cuz some Farkers belive anything they hear
:eek:
Bugs Gunny
28-10-05, 15:18
As far as i'm concerned i no longer think there's a point in complaining about ppus.
It's VERY obvious someone high up at KK or some devs have an undying love for ppuwhoring and their oh so inventive parashock spell, that they'd rather die than please the people who pay their wages.
The only people who want parashock to remain are the ones playing an apu-ppu team 24/7, and even those people have a strong anti parashock camp.
Are classes ballanced? Pretty much
Do ppus fuck this ballance up completely? Yes
Do wizards belong in a scifi game? Not realy
Is someone at KK going to do something about it? Hell no
I work for parashock
So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies.
Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.
But trust me.... You don't.
I say most of the people here do know what they are talking about.
However your post lacks argument in you have not pointed out what people have post that is incorrect. So for the viewers at home, care to enlighten us?
Edit: @ Bugs - The monks are very skilled users of PSI, not wizards, caused by the end of the world and the radiation that mutated the human race. Who knows, what would happen to us if this happened in real life.
Paper Dragon
28-10-05, 15:31
Do wizards belong in a scifi game? Not realy
It's psionics, not magic.
Psi-Monk = Psionic Monk.
Bugs Gunny
28-10-05, 15:41
Let me tell you exactly why KK decided to put monks into the game:
Because there is a very large sword and sorcery market out there which they tried to tap into.
This game has been moncocron for years now, all the way back to the last year of nc1.
Nothing much has changed, with the exception that they made hybrids viable again.
Seriously, someone at KK is realy waiting for dungeons and dragons online to come out so he can play what he realy wanted to have.
Mutations caused them to be psionics?
I can do poisonbarrels when i've had a lot of beans for lunch, but i'm still a long ways mutating from pulling lightning from the sky.....
Dribble Joy
28-10-05, 17:03
Don't get started on the whole sci-fi vs fantasy thing.
I hate para as much as the next man or woman..
But come to think of it, with a good puppy by your side, you can either get healed out of the damage youre taking from being glued to the ground, or if youre lucky, the puppy has some good mind trick to make glue disappear..
So, if you have weapons or armorparts glued together, use Holy Antiparalyse, brought to you by...
CRAHN!!! THE SECOND COMING IS NEAR!!!
Lifewaster
29-10-05, 00:12
But come to think of it, with a good puppy by your side, you can either get healed out of the damage youre taking from being glued to the ground...
...Its odd, but in a way the old NC1 combat was maybe better because this was indeed the case then.
But not nowadays , even the best puppy can do little to save you when he suddenly hears "Im DB! , Im HAB!, Im Para! , need heal!, need S/D! , need Anti para!"
Lets imagine the puppy somehow has light speed- reaction time in first locating the runner in distress, then targeting him...this is giving the benefit of 2 or 3 attacker HLs that would normally have hit before most mortal puppys have achieved this much. Now the puppy has to choose , does he cast S ? or D ? or Heal ? or anti-DB ? or anti-para ? Bearing in mind the game-limited frequency on these spells , its going to take at least 1-2 seconds before he can land a single one of these necessary spells.
So for mortal puppies, we are talking at least 2-3 seconds of HL spam on a frozen, DBed , antibuffed runner...before either a heal or a Shelter lands.
Lets say the puppy chooses Shelter first , thats a further second of HL spam on a DBed / Sheltered runner, equivalent perhaps to one extra unsheltered HL in total. ..... so how many total HLs was that? Id say at least 6 or 7 total unsheltered/DBed HLs in damage taken ... chances of runner survival? Zero for spy/pe , 20% for tank, 10% for apu .......
If the puppy chooses Heal first, the chances are even lower, and yet with the increased usage of nib Shelters these days, heal first is perhaps the better option sadly...
Choosing anti-para first is usually totally suicidal...
In fact, the occasions when runners do survive its usually more due to clipping bug issues saving them then anything else...
I dunno how it can really be made any more obvious to KK .. but DB/HAb and Para are all provided by ....... an APU/PPU combo
RogerRamjet
29-10-05, 01:43
Let me tell you exactly why KK decided to put monks into the game:
Because there is a very large sword and sorcery market out there which they tried to tap into.
This game has been moncocron for years now, all the way back to the last year of nc1.
Nothing much has changed, with the exception that they made hybrids viable again.
Seriously, someone at KK is realy waiting for dungeons and dragons online to come out so he can play what he realy wanted to have.
Mutations caused them to be psionics?
I can do poisonbarrels when i've had a lot of beans for lunch, but i'm still a long ways mutating from pulling lightning from the sky.....
You cant argue why KK put monks ingame. In NC1, they werent a problem (on Uranus atleast). The reason theyre moaned about now, is not so much the game mechanics, as the people who play them.
a bad ppu can be brought down by anything
a good ppu can be brought down by an apu...
a medium ppu can be brought down by a pe or tank or apu...
A good apu won't be taken down by a single apu.
Even if it is apart of some large fight over some op.
I work for parashock
So I am really getting a kick out of most of these replies.
Some of you guys are very good at making it sound like you know what you are talking about.
But trust me.... You don't.
I think you just want to make yourself sound smart, when in reality you dont know what you are talking about.
I'm going out on a limb here and saying I know alot more about parashock and monks in general then you do.
@ Paper Dragon, as an apu/ppu team we've killed five droners/raptors at one time. I have no idea about how "skillful" the droners were, but I was nearly able to sit there and outheal most of the damage (I was on the apu). And I was easily able to kill the drones before they killed me.
So IMO, even droners aren't a viable way to combat ppus (and they shouldn't be, as in, the only viable way like DJ has said).
And the standard, remove parashock and foreign shields.
"I work for parashock" that reads funny to me for some reason.
@Lifewaster :
I donīt think itīs as bad as you describe it, yes, it takes a few seconds for a ppu to react, but the ppu should react the second the antibuff can be seen, then you start finding the target of it, so the ppu is 1 step ahead of your description, but still, takes a few secs to get ready.
And from there it goes:
First priority: Heal
Second priority: Shelter
Third priority: Deflector
if extra time: Anti DB else Heal
if even more time: Anti Para else Heal
Fifth priority: Heal again.
Anti Db and anti para are spells you only do if you have time to spare.
@Sultana:
Antibuff
rare spell
rare spell
rare spell
Antibuff
rare spell
rare spell
rare spell
Antibuff
etc.
maybe even anti heal too..
Would be my guess to how they do it.
Donīt really play APU, but Iīve seen some good PPUs die from just 1 apu.
Donīt really play APU, but Iīve seen some good PPUs die from just 1 apu.
Don't call them good ppu then... :rolleyes:
RogerRamjet
29-10-05, 11:46
The ones that drop to a single APU usually call themselves a good PPU :rolleyes:
Antibuff
rare spell
rare spell
rare spell
Antibuff
rare spell
rare spell
rare spell
Antibuff
etc.
maybe even anti heal too..
Would be my guess to how they do it.
Donīt really play APU, but Iīve seen some good PPUs die from just 1 apu.
In thoery that would work but in reality no. I have alot of mana for most APU's yet HAB takes out half of it, even if as soon as u cast u take a booster.. it wont regenerate ur psi energy in time, u could lay down a few HL's and still wont have recovered enough to get a second HAB. Way i see it is HAB is a support role which cripples the APU on seeing it through long enough to get kill. A APU should call out to his allies that he/she is about to HAB and who he/she is going to HAB. That way APU can get a few HL's down but the rest of the team also hit the ppu with everything they got. Also handy a pe to n00b shelter,cause as soon HAB is seen ppu should have thier shelter ready to cast so its 'off' > 'on', heal, laughing ppu. Get n00b shelter in there usally gets the kill.
Don't call them good ppu then... :rolleyes:
i second that.
even a decent ppu cant be killed by a single apu.
if a PPU can survive for 7 minutes, with 5 people hitting almost all the time earlier, but then in the end of the fight, die from just 1 apu attacking.
In my opinion a PPU that can survive that long with 5 attackers, is a good PPU..
The APU in this case is obviously just a lot better.
Being able to survive against multiple attackers doesn't make you a "good" ppu. I could probably stand still and take it from about 5 attackers (without an apu) and nearly (if not actually) outheal any damage they do.
Dieing to just one apu (especially when you have no one to support) doesn't say much about how good you are either.
Antibuff
rare spell
rare spell
rare spell
Antibuff
rare spell
rare spell
rare spell
Antibuff
etc.
Shelter
Heal
Deflector
wait...
Shelter
Heal
Defector
wait...
etc.
In my opinion a PPU that can survive that long with 5 attackers, is a good PPU..
erm no, thats a load of crap. PPU'n is about keeping others alive as well you know. You dont know a ppu's abilities until have been ppu'd by him. Not what you see from the other side or whether he once ran around with 90879078908 people attacking him and still gr'd out.
erm no, thats a load of crap. PPU'n is about keeping others alive as well you know. You dont know a ppu's abilities until have been ppu'd by him. Not what you see from the other side or whether he once ran around with 90879078908 people attacking him and still gr'd out.
Are you finished being childish now?
Do you really think I was referring to a situation where the PPU was left to himself?
I donīt remember mentioning that he gr'd out, cuz he didnīt.
What I said was that there was 5 people attacking the PPU at the same time, and he managed to stay alive, of course I didnīt mention what happened to the other dudes that were alive. But yes they died, but that wasnīt the PPUs fault.. The buffs and heal were just outdamaged.
Was a good PPU, but he still fell dead from 1 apu in the end.
So Iīll repeat myself... The apu was simply just better.
Don't call them good ppu then...
i second that.
even a decent ppu cant be killed by a single apu.
So TRUE!
FFS What PPU gets killed by a lone APU?? If thats you then delete the char tbh.
I have toyed with two APU's and not even broken a sweat :cool: lol, even when they were workin one HAB, other HL. Played for a while tbh not just to get to the REP!
Though that dam executioner does some damage to me tbh :D not overwhelming just enough to be wary.
as it is anyone on a PPU should _not_ die to a single opponent unless their tardish or fatal or just plain fuck up and know they did.
The overall problem is the big balance seesaw
Its looked at from 3-4 directions
PvM, all pvm is now balanced for a team with 1+ PPUs when it comes to higher end mobs, hell sometimes a team has to be 50% PPU to clear a heavy mob area
the main place it fucks up tho is in pvp combat, you have fights without PPUs that are fun and balanced, a tank vs a PE is a good fight without PEs involved
but if you have a tank + PPU vs a PE + PPU then its fucked, cause both have capped defences, but the tank has better damage output. This is where it goes even further down the shitter, why ? Because of the defence that a PPU can add, this means that youll rarely see a solo APU, because they have shit defence but awesome damage output, pair that APU with a PPU and you have awesome defence and awesome damage output. and the balance goes wonky from there
Now ive got no real grumble or issue with a PPU being able to give others great defence, however its the fact they are godlike themselves as their spells are stronger on themselves than on others
nearly all other games that have the same kind of role, be it a priest, medic or whatever, all seem to have taken, imo, a better stance on them, by making them the 'support' class, instead of the 'required' class as it is in neocron
The healers in other games are for the majority, weak themselves, but support the team and have the teams protection in return. I think that NC's direction with PPU monks should be the same direction as that
in reply to the original post of just bring a skilled droner, yes it can work, if there is only a PPU, if there is a damage dealer, they WILL kill your drone before you can kill them unless their shite. or you will get found while pissing around tickling the PPU. The whole statement just smells like 'Bring a APU they have antibuff!!111'... joy, monks to fight monks...
Bugs, 'wizards' are in NC because there were in RP games like shadowrun, wich a lot of NC is based off of.
Like it or not this is where NC is from and we'd loose a lot from not having em,
imagine ur so loved PE being only able to heal from medkits...cmon man !
NOW to all haters
we need psi and we need a pure psi class.
and no a 'skilled' ppu doesnt die from a single attaker, even a capped apu.
PERIOD
only time when a ppu is in dange is if he gets nibsheltered, wich are provided by a working and efficient apu/ppu team (or PEs even, apu/pe teams are viable)
being a good team is basically 3 aspects:communication, strategy, and aim.
and a good apu has to be aware of a couple things, and SHOULD know a couple things... such as knowing when he gets HAB so he can call new sd in advance.
on a personnal note i been playing NC for one year and i just started out in the apu/ppu world. I LOVE IT
tbh u dont need a lot of skills to be the apu, i give most of the credit to my ppu...
i dont think the 'balance' i somewhat fucked by apu/ppu , u only need to get ur own apu/ppu to counter... its simple.
i would seem that PEs were designed to be a SOLO class, while the tanks have somewhat designed to be PPUd, and are a way more viable op war class then PEs.
agreed, if u are a P2 only fighter u will cry when decent apu/ppu team comes to kick ur ass for whatever reason. if its the case, u suck anyways cuz u only do P2 fights hahahahah
they only 'weird' thing as i pointed out in in previous posts is that Para is a PPU spell, it should be on the apu to either HAB/PARA, and the limited mana that apus have would somewhat balance it
for instance itl take about 8 more secs before you ccould stack a HAB/damage over para
or you need to work with 2 apu/ppu teams
and as apu, id rather have my ppu do the para thing tbh,
basically apus are meant to deal damage not change the status of one char.
anti heal/buff are already enough for me as an apu.
i say leave the game as it is para isnt a big deal, HOLLA PARA SPAMMER BEEEOTCHES
In my opinion a PPU that can survive that long with 5 attackers, is a good PPU..
dude, the first time i logged on a ppu i godmoded vs 2 apus, 2 tanks (hc and melee), slasher pe, spirit sh spy and a ppu.
after 10 - 15 minutes i left coz i went out of psi boosters.
godmoding means nothing.
if u can keep 4, 5 ppl alive vs the same amount of dmgbdealers + ppus i'd call you a good ppu.
not just because u can survive on your own (while all your dmg-dealers died).
The only good ppu is a dead ppu.
ps. I agree healing others takes skill compared to just themselves. The good ppus are always the ones that keep their team alive not the ones that get to stand around after their teams dead.
that was rather obvious.
it takes skill because you have to aim. but thats only half the job.
if ur apu cant tell hes getting debuffed theres no use in being a good ppu.
hes still going to die.
dude, the first time i logged on a ppu i godmoded vs 2 apus, 2 tanks (hc and melee), slasher pe, spirit sh spy and a ppu.
after 10 - 15 minutes i left coz i went out of psi boosters.
godmoding means nothing.
Im sorry, even if what you say is true, that's not you being good, that's them
sucking huge monkey ass. If 2 apus, 2 tanks, a slasher pe AND a spirit sh spy
cant kill a lone ppu, then maybe, just maybe, it doesnt have alot to do with the
ppu in the first place.
u see ? godmoding means nothing.
ur good if u can do the same on a PE, and top it with doing damage.
and to answer the question, countering ppu with skilled droner, hmm nah, never considered it.
the best option yet is still another apu/ppu. a solo droner cant take it.
its almost mathematical.
u see ? godmoding means nothing.
Yes but that has nothing to do with godmodding...What I mean is this, say you
were on a PE instead of ppu, and that same crowd tried to kill you on your pe,
and you ran around in circles, and they couldnt hit.
After 15 mins of running around in cicrles they still haven't hit you once, is the
PE class/running in circles overpowered then? Or godmodding? No, they simply
suck bigtime.
Now, I'm sure you were hit plenty there on your ppu, but, no matter how good
of a ppu, the combination of 2 apus AND spirit sh spy with any skill to their
name should be able to take you down. If you are very very good it might
take them a while, but you would go down eventually.
And besides those 2 apus & spirit sh spy you also had a PE & 2 tanks on your
ass and they still couldnt kill you...
That to me only proves one thing, there is not much wrong with ppu's, it's the
lack of skill on the other part thats misssing. How ppu's affect others is a totaly
different discussion incase anybody thinks i'm reffering to that.
yeah i agree virtual, a lot of ppl complaining about ppu are prolly ppl that met a very coordonated apu/ppu team, got they ass kicked, and since no one listen to their rants on tradeNC or OOC, they came on the forums to post their disgust, when in fact they just sucked and the team was better.
After 15 mins of running around in cicrles they still haven't hit you once, is the
PE class/running in circles overpowered then? Or godmodding? No, they simply
suck bigtime.
it was in front of crp.
there are no boxes or anything like that to run around.
maybe a tree, but i didnt use it.
just ran throught the players ...
but thats what i was talking about.
if theres a ppu who can godmode as hell it doesnt mean he's good.
i still remember a clan with 6 dmg dealers and 6 ppu attacking our apu/ppu/hc tank combo.
all their dmg dealer died within a few minutes, but we were not able to kill the ppus.
does it mean they're good ? no, it means they're crap.
worthless.
for what the hell do u need a ppu who can keep himself alive, but none else ?
Well a ppu does need to be able to take care of himself aswell, but a ppu that
can't keep anybody else besides himself alive is no good, true. It's also known
as the "pete syndrome", something most pluto players should know :)
@ Kame
If you enjoy playing the ppu/apu team so much, then you are playing the wrong game. Most people play Neocron for the PvP. Fighting with just apus and ppus removes alot of that skill. i.e. Holy Heal/S/D/Primes. And now the apu becomes not only the best damage dealer, but on par with the best defences. And of course holy para which has somehow survived to this day.
i dont think the 'balance' i somewhat fucked by apu/ppu , u only need to get ur own apu/ppu to counter... its simple.
No, it's stupid.
agreed, if u are a P2 only fighter u will cry when decent apu/ppu team comes to kick ur ass for whatever reason. if its the case, u suck anyways cuz u only do P2 fights hahahahah
hahaha...?
ppu + insert class here vs. insert solo class here.
I wonder who's going to win.
Do you know why people bitch about ppus? Because the second they come into play, their chances of winning hit basically zero.
Bottom line is, ppus wreck the otherwise decent balance between classes in the game. They do it because they give other classes huge defensive bonuses that they shouldn't have, period. (i.e. apus).
Remove foreign sheilds and parashock and the pvp in the game will be one step closer to being balanced.
Asurmen Spec Op
01-11-05, 06:10
Well Kame, from my tests, your wrong, P2 fighters dont cry, we leave or kill you.
If you suck, we kill
if not, we leave and find a real fight.
tbh, remove all ppu spells tl 55 (normal rezz?) and higher -.- ...
@ Kame
If you enjoy playing the ppu/apu team so much, then you are playing the wrong game. Most people play Neocron for the PvP. Fighting with just apus and ppus removes alot of that skill. i.e. Holy Heal/S/D/Primes. And now the apu becomes not only the best damage dealer, but on par with the best defences.
So apu/ppu isnt PvP ? if i get your point right its cheapshot ?
I dont really think i should justify myself but i will.
I joined neocron 1 yr ago.
I made a PE, un LEd from 0/2, played it, capped it.
I made a tank, no LE, played it, capped it.
I made a spy, no LE, played it, capped it.
Now i made a monk not too long ago, an APU monk, i play it, and i plan on capping it.
Am i playing the wrong game because i play a certain class ?
i.e. : CS players that sni9pes with AWP / BF1942 players using ... planes ??
Sultana i dont really wanna argue with you but...
ur mathemathic of ppu+combat class vs combat class is made on the
(1+1) vs(1) scheme. how you figure you got a point ?
(on the other hand i DO KNOW that it could be arguable to say that 2PEs could kill ppu+fighter but well, i needed to make a point)
I dont think i play the wrong game, i knew from the get go that when apu/ppu rolls in if im on my own im basically dead.
It is a lot why i decided to make that class last on my account.
Fighting with just apus and ppus removes alot of that skill.
And on the skill note, is 2 ppl working as 1, NOT SKILL ?
And when apu/ppu face apu/ppu in OP, do you imply by that comment that
they have NO skils, just becaus of SD heal ?
Everyone is given the same chance. Its up to them to decide what they do of it.
Bozz-Von Mel
01-11-05, 16:06
ur mathemathic of ppu+combat class vs combat class is made on the
(1+1) vs(1) scheme. how you figure you got a point ?
(on the other hand i DO KNOW that it could be arguable to say that 2PEs could kill ppu+fighter but well, i needed to make a point)
Everyone is given the same chance. Its up to them to decide what they do of it.
Taking pieces of your post here. It seems that if people want balance then the players need to introduce the variables themselves to balance the equation.
Ex: PPU on each side ?
If you don't have one get one.
I hate monks anyway, but its fun to make people mad.
Mechanicus
01-11-05, 16:23
ppu monks are the only class i really find fun anymore
apus are AB, HL, HL, HL, HL, HL, ask for heal, AB, HL, HL, HL, HL
tanks are TL3HEAL(yourself or them), HOLD TRIGGER, KEEP HOLDING TRIGGER
PEs are TL10HEAL, HOLD TRIGGER, TL10HEAL, KEEP HOLDING TRIGGER
spys are like PEs but throw in a few extra drugs and a few more months to cap
ppus are the only class with a little varieation
A ppu is the last class ill make.
I really thinks it takes more skill to be PPU in pvp (pvm is irelevant, if u cant ppu decently for pvm ... )
It is overall harder to save ppl then to have em die.( for me )
ppu monks are the only class i really find fun anymore
apus are AB, HL, HL, HL, HL, HL, ask for heal, AB, HL, HL, HL, HL
tanks are TL3HEAL(yourself or them), HOLD TRIGGER, KEEP HOLDING TRIGGER
PEs are TL10HEAL, HOLD TRIGGER, TL10HEAL, KEEP HOLDING TRIGGER
spys are like PEs but throw in a few extra drugs and a few more months to cap
ppus are the only class with a little varieation
ok where to start:
APUS: Where the fuck do u get all the mana to do that, my apu has alot but a AB would take away half of it, might just sqeeze four HL's (considering no miscasts) the heal u shouldnt need to ask for it should just be there but you will have to wait the time it takes to boost ur mana from 0 to over 200 odd before u can get the HAB off again.. even if whilst casting u are chomping boosters u wont have enough to get a decent volly of HL's again for quite a while. so ur AB HL HL HL HL HL AB HL HL HL blah blah dont work (well does but over alot longer period of time then u think)
TANKS: tbh tl 3 heal doesn't do that much unless n00b healing them. But to hold ur trigger down is plain silly, u wont hit most shots.. and they will fuck u when u reload.
PES: i agree with that except the hold triggar part again, i think of PE's like Cats. Both have 9 lives as it is just fire heal fire heal fire heal. They are due to this champs on the streets (solo).
SPYS: Depends on type of combat spy way i see it there two: Long Duration and Short Duration (and im not nesscary talking about rifle or pistol).
---Long Duration usally keep their distance and who are hunting enemies for long durations of time, can fight with short notice and usally the peeps who OP fight.
---Short Duration are usally what i refer to as dueling chars. They are the peeps who set themselves up to duel in NF or FN's pumped up to the eye balls with drugs, but can only fight til drug flash comes on.
PPUS: agreed.
anyway these only my opinions and maybe not be the opinion of others.
Mechanicus
02-11-05, 00:13
i can do that on my apu, i have capped psi pool (more psi you have the faster it regens) and i basically make sure i have a booster working on me 100% of the time, yeah occassionally you gotta pause but barely any time at all
by hold down trigger i basically mean keep shooting, so yeah make sure you got the reticale over them before you fire
So apu/ppu isnt PvP ? if i get your point right its cheapshot ?
Most people will agree that monk fighting isn't anywhere near in class of reticle weapons. You don't have to keep a lock, which makes it easier to aim and you can simply hit them using reflex.
For ppus this is understandable as their support role means they have to be constantly switching targets for heals etc. Though for apus they are just like any other class.
Not to mention bugs will come in and say something about this being a "post-modern" "cyberpunk" mmorpg.
Sultana i dont really wanna argue with you but...
ur mathemathic of ppu+combat class vs combat class is made on the
(1+1) vs(1) scheme. how you figure you got a point ?
Say we have 1 Tank vs. 2 Pes, the Tank still has a decent enough chance on winning.
Or 1 Pe vs. 2 Tanks, the PE still has a decent enough chance of winning.
When you bring ppu's into this it completely fucks over the balance. Yes they should give an advantage. Probably more then what another tank would bring. (i.e. Tank + ppu, instead of tank + tank). But not to the extent in what the bring now.
And on the skill note, is 2 ppl working as 1, NOT SKILL ?
And when apu/ppu face apu/ppu in OP, do you imply by that comment that
they have NO skils, just becaus of SD heal ?
Parashock removes skill.
When you have a ppu + whatever against a lone target, it removes skill. Why? Because the holy heal/s/d means you no longer have to try to defeat whoever the lone person is, and parashock just makes it even worse.
If there wasn't a ppu involved, and it was a simple 2 vs 1, both members of the team ganging up on the lone fighter still have a "fight" so to speak, it isn't just simply parashock, db, attack, attack, attack... dead solo person.
And the lone person still actually has a chance of winning instead of his/her entire damage output just being absorbed by the holy s/d/heal.
And once again, the "bring ppus to counter ppus" argument is just stupid.
Why ?
its like saying a PE that uses DB vs a PE that doesnt uses DB is 'unbalanced'
very not tought of, like comment.
heres the point :
you have 1 way of countering para, without PPU, and 2 if u have a PPU.
so bringing a PPU that can anti para to counter another PPU team is stupid ?
that last comment was the stupidest thing i saw u post there sultana.
CMON !!!!
OPEN UR FUCKING EYES !! :eek:
i still love you tho :D
so bringing a PPU that can anti para to counter another PPU team is stupid ?
and then you bring another ppu on the other side because they don't manage to heal the team and then another ppu to the other side and then another and another and.... argh.... stop ppuing, its easy :(
its like saying a PE that uses DB vs a PE that doesnt uses DB is 'unbalanced'
1.) the pe without dmgb still got the chance to win, skill still does matter
2.) antidmgdrugs :rolleyes:
heres one for you :
when i was lvling my hc tank i went to mb
i had no armor, str 72 plasma cannon.
i met a fullcapped cs tank. i killed him without any problems, just becoz he wasnt able to hit me.
deserves a tank like him to kill me just becoz another class can cast 2, 3 spells on him ?
ofc :rolleyes: ...
well i dont know, and it doesnt matter much .
a lot of times i suck at aiming on monk but manage to do ok because im good at eating a lot of drugs, and a lot of boosters. nevertheless i still have a good time.
player para isnt a big issue for me, the guard's is, on the other hand, cuz taking drugs to counter it is just a waste of money. for those i rely on my ppu.
now how do you smart guys counter ppu ?
with a 'skilled' droner ?
theres only so much paras a ppu can cast without depleting his whole mana pool.
now how do you smart guys counter ppu ?
Simple leave and ask on ooc if anyone want to go nf or cancel my account. ;)
i suck at aiming on monk
nice one :lol:
now how do you smart guys counter ppu ?
Get another ppu. :(
Actualy there are alot of ways.... but they all need more then one person per ppu.
And mostly its another MONK :wtf:
so bringing a PPU that can anti para to counter another PPU team is stupid ?
that last comment was the stupidest thing i saw u post there sultana.
Think about it a little.
And if you can't, you shouldn't need ppus to counter ppus. Ppus are a required to PvP, they shouldn't be.
Asurmen Spec Op
03-11-05, 06:12
Think about it a little.
And if you can't, you shouldn't need ppus to counter ppus. Ppus are a required to PvP, they shouldn't be.
This statement is unfortunatly True HOWEVER.
We can do something about it.
Just
Stop
Using
Them.
Really its not hard, people(not really you sultana, just quoting you) piss moan and whine about PPUs but use them all the time, you cant whine about them when you use them yourself
Ofcorse I know of some TG and some pro clans who could not FATHOM loosing their buttplugs, if we all stop using it, they might get a clue
Bugs Gunny
03-11-05, 09:36
Hunt them down, kill em and sell their 5 slot spells to yo's.
On my mars pe whenever i encounter a ppu or someone with a ppu, i go for him only. They all deserve to die, got 4 on my list already. :p
You're assuming the majority of nc wants a fair fight asurmen, but instead its the exact opposite.
I think most ppl simply get a ppu buttplug cause they're expecting everyone else does the same. Weird shit. :wtf:
RogerRamjet
03-11-05, 10:41
You're assuming the majority of nc wants a fair fight asurmen, but instead its the exact opposite.
The majority of NC in this day and age wants to win. People seem to have forgotten its just a game and will do anything to get one over on another runner. Its almost like some of them get a huge erection at the prospect of seeing a runners dead corpse (not in the Assman way though).
Now wheres my pistol tank...
Bugs Gunny
03-11-05, 11:03
I don't mind losing a fight.
Hell, losing most fights all thru nc1 and the starting months of nc2 made me realise i needed to practice more.
Besides, the main reason to pvp is the adrenalin rush during the fight and the awesome shittalk afterwards :-)
I don't mind losing a fight.
Hell, losing most fights all thru nc1 and the starting months of nc2 made me realise i needed to practice more.
Besides, the main reason to pvp is the adrenalin rush during the fight and the awesome shittalk afterwards :-)
im starting to appreciate shittalk more than the adrenaline rush lol. aww god what I have become lol
Bugs Gunny
03-11-05, 12:27
aww god what I have become lol
Remember when i was the most hardcore anti pker on the forums?
I sometimes too think "what have i become?" :-)
Jini, u still on point my friend, remember when u pawned my pe for like 20 times in NF ??? :lol:
but on the fun note i had a v good fight yesterday w someone 1v1 and then he DM me and said...
GF :eek:
OMG
wow i didnt think that could even happen again in NC
BTW Jini why did you leave Pheonix ?
cuz they were doing .... nothing ? :D
JINI !!!!!!! U MADE ME !!!!! AAAAAARGH !!!!!
BTW Jini why did you leave Pheonix ?
cuz they were doing .... nothing ? :D
Jini left Phoenix for his own reasons, which can choose to talk about or not.
As for Phoenix, we are busy...
...That is all. :D
Dribble Joy
03-11-05, 16:40
:rolleyes:
RogerRamjet
03-11-05, 16:43
What clan you in Kame?
Left trauma last week (such a bad name + leaders went MIA)
and made E.N.4C.E.R. this week. Cityadmin clan.
all the happy OP runners from trauma came along including ppl we were going at OP with (NC'S elite)
i personnaly couldnt deal with 'old' trauma guys that havnt logged in. in like 1 month coming in and trying to tell me what to do. they can have trauma.
i hope they choke with it. RAAS especially.
we fought for ceres mine for about 2 hrs last saturday(still under Trauma banner), and will probably go OP this weekend, too.
ig name kame ? :confused:
[ edited ]
I'm not bothering to reply your attempts to troll this thread, since this thread is about PPU's.
vashtyphoon78
03-11-05, 16:58
E.N.4.C.E.R 4tw tbfh :D
yes, Vent name Kame also.
DM VegaH if interested hes Leader. we have 50-50 french english ppl
Dont ask me how we can work it out we actually do, and i thinks its nice.
i just have to repeat everything twice (1xfrench, 1xeng) :D
Stay on topic please.
-L-
Bugs Gunny
03-11-05, 17:47
Did you guys know that frozen spinach, when heated, frozen and reheated can be lethal?
But anyway i think ppus should all be killed, their belts hacked and then scorned on trade.
If ppus get nerfed, as in made blessed with apu-ppu malus reinstated they can take away the pe stealth and make the spy stealth dex 115 req.
Then we'll have a ballanced game, where all charactertypes show up at opwars. Maybe add a touch of flavor by giving tradeskillers a tl135 req resurectiontool, which will bring more vehicles to opwars.
Only thing that would be a tad too lethal would be raptor using droners, so maybe make the armor on them a lot less.
ppu monks are the only class i really find fun anymore
apus are AB, HL, HL, HL, HL, HL, ask for heal, AB, HL, HL, HL, HL
tanks are TL3HEAL(yourself or them), HOLD TRIGGER, KEEP HOLDING TRIGGER
PEs are TL10HEAL, HOLD TRIGGER, TL10HEAL, KEEP HOLDING TRIGGER
spys are like PEs but throw in a few extra drugs and a few more months to cap
ppus are the only class with a little varieation
Play APU hybrid.
It's like APU + PE, but with less damage than an APU and less defense than a PE. It's fun.
If you aren't DBing as a PE, you probably won't be doing any damage though.
Spy is like: tl3 heal, hold trigger, stealth. Come back a min later and repeat. Then you get drug flash and stealth again and hide while med kitting.
If you aren't DBing as a PE, you probably won't be doing any damage though.
thats how my fight vs jester went...
we've been fighting for like 12 mins, his pe vs my apu hyb :p ...
Lifewaster
06-11-05, 05:01
I would just suggest to everyone who plays APU/PPU routinely to think a bit more about what the game will become as eventually more and more ppl start to follow the "bring your own apu/ppu to counter my apu/ppu" line of thinking.
Because honestly , combat is a lot more entertaining when there is variety.
.........
Currently, there is still some variety, but only because ppl are playing non-monks out of loyalty etc.
A successful apu/ppu does require some skill , namely for the initial holy para cast and the timing of nib-shelter to coincide with HAB , but really thats all there is to it, its not a very difficult skill to learn and eventually EVERYONE will be able to do it pretty much as effectively as anyone else. This is all there is to winning anymore.
APU/PPU vs APU/PPU Combat is basically thus:
PPU selects enemy APU target and begins his routine of casting Para/DB/nib shelter in constant succession , thats a total cast time of about 6 sec.
APU upon seeing para cast begin , begins casting HAB ....total cast time about 3 sec.
This leaves a window of about 3 seconds between when the HAB lands and when the nib shelter lands.
With a tiny bit of practice , the APUs can then adjust their timing to delay a second or so before they begin their HAB , and fine tune the routine to decrease the window size. Eventually getting it down to split seconds .
Eventually , it will just boil down to whoever lands para first. Monk team A vs Monk team B , charging at each other , PPUs in the lead in order to close to para range vs enemy the APU before the enemy PPU closes range to para the friendly APU. First PPU to get there wins the fight for his team...........pretty much sums it all up.
In fact you could just give each of the ppus a one hit kill weapon and let then run at each other to fire it , with the first to hit winning the fight for pretty much the same challenge.
.........And even still, this level of skill is only required to beat enemy apu/ppu combos , vs anything else there isnt even a need to nib shelter .
So this is the future of neocron. As eventually more and more players give up bothering to play non-monks , and increase the monk population more, or give up bothering entirely and decrease the non-monk population more.
Its all so simple sadly.
So I would suggest think very carefully about if you really, really want everyone in the game to "bring their own apu/ppu"
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