View Full Version : An attempt at balance
Perhaps if we brought back the spirit ammo as a mod for all weapons, the "ppu problem" will be balanced... what do you think?
Nope, the whole ppu thing needs a rework, not just a simple "add spirit mods/ammo" fix.
the PPU is the problem why should everyone else have to adjust for them.
i have an idea to fix FRE's, make the client auto relaunch when it crashes!
1 spirit ammo for each lowtch weapon class.
So all the classes can do something against ppu's.
But the best thing to do is to remove monks.
would be simpler and better to rework the ppus instead of making them useless
For Silent Hunter and a special raredrone
Asurmen Spec Op
02-10-05, 00:45
No, PPUs should be fixed, adding things to defeat imblanaced things fucks things up
I happen to remember the threads about the pre nerd hybrids, and how we should fix them, now its going the same way with PPU's, watch, we will probably lose the class completely, or have them not even viable.
I happen to remember the threads about the pre nerd hybrids, and how we should fix them, now its going the same way with PPU's, watch, we will probably lose the class completely, or have them not even viable.
Poor them. :angel:
I happen to remember the threads about the pre nerd hybrids, and how we should fix them, now its going the same way with PPU's, watch, we will probably lose the class completely, or have them not even viable.
What does it matter anyway, KK "balanced" them in the end.
Hell look at blessed hybrids now, and this is the "not even viable" hybrid, I think there was a reason to nerfing hybrids.
edit: also at adding spirit mods to every weapon. Spirit modded slasher/cs... yeah, good luck to everyone that isn't a tank.
Vae Victis
02-10-05, 02:10
1 spirit ammo for each lowtch weapon class.
So all the classes can do something against ppu's.
But the best thing to do is to remove monks.yeah n1.. spirit ammo on terminator or PE or TSU rifle...
wow why dont make ppus /set kill_self at once?
I like that shiz :)
Lifewaster
02-10-05, 02:19
The PPU solution as I see it , is to rework PPUs so that 1 ppu per team is just as viable as a 1-1 PPU-fighter ration.
How to do this I dont know.But thats ideally how things should be , if you go to an op fight, you should need 1 healer per team , and not be at a huge disadvantage vs a team with 4 healers and 4 fighters.
If you could limit the PPU advantage to simply defensiveness , then the side with extra fighters and less ppus has an even chance vs the team with extra ppus and less fighters.
The main prob is probably the devastating offensive+defensive ability that surplus PPUs can give a team in the form of para and db alongside dedicated single target healing.
Another prob is the targeting system for healing in this game, and the inability to even see effectively where your team members are during a melee , let alone target them with heals, which makes non-dedicated healing much more difficult.
Both of these issues are what mainly lend to the current situation where 1 ppu per tank/apu is almost the ideal ratio to have these days.
######
Strangely enough, dumbing down the ppus job could actually be the best solution to the issue, such as providing a team effect anti-db/anti-para spell, or even team heal spells.
With a team heal in place , one ppu per team would be just as good as 4 or 5 , every member of the team would effectively be getting healed just as effectively as if he was fighting with a personal ppu , so the surplus PPUs would garner little advantage apart from para and db , which again could be countered by the presence of a single enemy ppu with team cure spells.
So what would op fights be like then ? Well ppl would certainly live longer on both sides , all you would need to have a fair fighting chance is a single ppu per team.
Might actually be very fun, ppl tend to enjoy fights regardless of who wins, as long as they get a fighting chance.... which is kinda what we have been aiming for when we decided to avoid using para at ops.
(We did already have some such fights with odd numbers such as 3 ppu+6 fighter vs 1 ppu+4 fighter , and it did seem to be a lot more fun and longer lasting since the weaker team was capable of keeping itself alive mostly and had enough firepower to drop specific targets when it co-ordinated its 4 fighters....if that had been a standard paraspam fight instead it would have ended in moments )
So the solution may not need to be reducing the defensiveness provided by a single ppu, but rather to reduce the defensiveness/offensiveness added by having multiple ppus.
Asurmen Spec Op
02-10-05, 03:26
Dancing Kirby!
spiritmod only on some kind of WoC 3 Weapon... this would be a really cool item.. and not 2 many PEs would run around with it
[PiN]Fluffy
02-10-05, 04:03
Spirit Mod Should be Delivered From a Weapon such as the SH or Seomthing with a Very Low Frequency... If not it would be Devastating and Insanely overpowered....
Dribble Joy
02-10-05, 04:24
spiritmod only on some kind of WoC 3 Weapon... this would be a really cool item.. and not 2 many PEs would run around with it
Yeah, because we really need to make WoC a lvling/PvP necessity.
On topic, spirit mods were a bad solution, trying to fix the wrong thing. Not to mention totally unbalacned and gave only two out of the eight subclasses the power it afforded.
In a similar vien as others here, we need to adress the core problem with PPUs, not just try to treat the symptoms of their issues.
bring it back but only on liberator and only for me
Fluffy']Spirit Mod Should be Delivered From a Weapon such as the SH or Seomthing with a Very Low Frequency... If not it would be Devastating and Insanely overpowered....
pfff... you say that because you can't live with out your ppu....
The PPU solution as I see it , is to rework PPUs so that 1 ppu per team is just as viable as a 1-1 PPU-fighter ration.
How to do this I dont know.But thats ideally how things should be , if you go to an op fight, you should need 1 healer per team , and not be at a huge disadvantage vs a team with 4 healers and 4 fighters.
If you could limit the PPU advantage to simply defensiveness , then the side with extra fighters and less ppus has an even chance vs the team with extra ppus and less fighters.
The main prob is probably the devastating offensive+defensive ability that surplus PPUs can give a team in the form of para and db alongside dedicated single target healing.
Another prob is the targeting system for healing in this game, and the inability to even see effectively where your team members are during a melee , let alone target them with heals, which makes non-dedicated healing much more difficult.
Both of these issues are what mainly lend to the current situation where 1 ppu per tank/apu is almost the ideal ratio to have these days.
######
Strangely enough, dumbing down the ppus job could actually be the best solution to the issue, such as providing a team effect anti-db/anti-para spell, or even team heal spells.
With a team heal in place , one ppu per team would be just as good as 4 or 5 , every member of the team would effectively be getting healed just as effectively as if he was fighting with a personal ppu , so the surplus PPUs would garner little advantage apart from para and db , which again could be countered by the presence of a single enemy ppu with team cure spells.
So what would op fights be like then ? Well ppl would certainly live longer on both sides , all you would need to have a fair fighting chance is a single ppu per team.
Might actually be very fun, ppl tend to enjoy fights regardless of who wins, as long as they get a fighting chance.... which is kinda what we have been aiming for when we decided to avoid using para at ops.
(We did already have some such fights with odd numbers such as 3 ppu+6 fighter vs 1 ppu+4 fighter , and it did seem to be a lot more fun and longer lasting since the weaker team was capable of keeping itself alive mostly and had enough firepower to drop specific targets when it co-ordinated its 4 fighters....if that had been a standard paraspam fight instead it would have ended in moments )
So the solution may not need to be reducing the defensiveness provided by a single ppu, but rather to reduce the defensiveness/offensiveness added by having multiple ppus.
wise words... and nerv foreign cast sd & fix heal... job done..
Someone actually tell me just what spirit mods did, so I can say why they are a bad idea.
I agree with lifewaster to some extent that we should try and reduce the need for PPU spam in fights. However I also feel that one of the majoor ues is the critical importnace of psi in this game. PEs are never going to be ballanced in big fights as long as defense is more to do with Psi than it is Str and Con.
I know its crazy but how about giving APUs the ability to use PPU spells up to blessed level (everything up to but not including holy) lowering there damage a tad as they have there own defense and simply removing everything to do with the PPU monk above holy level including PA, so the worst we can have are blessed hybrids?
Sledgehammer yes, effective maybe.
RogerRamjet
02-10-05, 13:15
Someone actually tell me just what spirit mods did, so I can say why they are a bad idea.
I agree with lifewaster to some extent that we should try and reduce the need for PPU spam in fights. However I also feel that one of the majoor ues is the critical importnace of psi in this game. PEs are never going to be ballanced in big fights as long as defense is more to do with Psi than it is Str and Con.
The spirit mod was like an ammo mod which let you use spirit ammo. When you hit someone with it it removed their shelter. At first you could mod all sniper rifles with it but they changed it to SH only (especialy after some tank on Uranus specced to use the lazar rifle modded with it :D)
Anyway, it was the frigging sex at OP wars and general runner hunting.
Spirit mod, to healing light = dead PPUs/APUs/Tanks/PEs/Spies :D
(Anyway, do bring it back, i have 2 silent hunters modded with it :D)
make spirit mod for neptune only and it should only work against holy buffs and then we will see how many people want a ppu shoved up there ass
[PiN]Fluffy
02-10-05, 15:43
make spirit mod for neptune only and it should only work against holy buffs and then we will see how many people want a ppu shoved up there ass
THat would be Great for the PvP server IMO.... A++++ Idea ^^.
pfff... you say that because you can't live with out your ppu....
Um I rarely ever have a PPU with me unless im OP fighting. SO i dont know where you got your Info From. And if you guys who come gank at Cycrow are all pissed that APU PPU teams come After you, get over it... That is the most populated zone in the game and people are not gonna log over to different characters just because you want a good fight...
Fluffy']And if you guys who come gank at Cycrow are all pissed that APU PPU teams come After you, get over it... That is the most populated zone in the game and people are not gonna log over to different characters just because you want a good fight...
two problems with that.., only place in the game where you can ever find any fight, and those same people would take those same chars anywhere they went to fight.
What does it matter anyway, KK "balanced" them in the end.
Hell look at blessed hybrids now, and this is the "not even viable" hybrid, I think there was a reason to nerfing hybrids.
edit: also at adding spirit mods to every weapon. Spirit modded slasher/cs... yeah, good luck to everyone that isn't a tank.
blessed hybrids aren't viable? um... keep thinking that. :rolleyes:
But anyway... spirit mods don't only destroy PPUs and apu+ppu teams, they destroy PEs and Spies completely. In fact, only Tanks would survive really. That's kind of.. dumb. They could make it so a spirit bullet would just hit a target as if they didn't have deflector on but not remove it.
Asurmen Spec Op
02-10-05, 20:51
I like the idea of them removing all holy buffs on neptune only
and allow it for all weapons tbpfh
What about if they removed reticle lock on all weapons and gave each weapon class a weapon that didn't require line-of-sight? Wouldn't that even up the odds against PPUs?
Asurmen Spec Op
03-10-05, 02:27
What about if they removed reticle lock on all weapons and gave each weapon class a weapon that didn't require line-of-sight? Wouldn't that even up the odds against PPUs?
That'd just make us all skilless monks
blessed hybrids aren't viable? um... keep thinking that. :rolleyes:
I was commenting on:
I happen to remember the threads about the pre nerd hybrids, and how we should fix them, now its going the same way with PPU's, watch, we will probably lose the class completely, or have them not even viable.
Since balance is about equal grounds and footing ... being able to fight equally, by giving a class the ability to kill another with ease does not equal balance .....
Its like saying make oly lighning a holy flower spell .....
How funny would that be ... a capped PPU, goes into aggiecellars .... some noob shoots him with his tl 9 spirit modded nail gun and aggies kill him ..... would be funny ......
Fix the problem, enough of trying to work around the issue. The problem is so bad that the solution would take months to work on with a dedicated team ..... IE reduce the effect of PPU spells = some guns would have to be re-balanced = some mobs to be re-balanced. PPU's are direclty responable for MC5 doy tunnels and 120/120 caves .... no PPU's and no one will be able to leagllly do them (Well almost no one)
Nope, No Spirit mods, Fix the PPU so no one moans don't remove him or invent another way to kill him as a fix :rolleyes:
I'd rather fix the PPU instead of adding another thing to fight him.
THough i'd like to see em again, maybe a decent amount this time and no clans who get tons for free. o_O
RogerRamjet
04-10-05, 10:07
Fluffy']Um I rarely ever have a PPU with me unless im OP fighting. SO i dont know where you got your Info From. And if you guys who come gank at Cycrow are all pissed that APU PPU teams come After you, get over it... That is the most populated zone in the game and people are not gonna log over to different characters just because you want a good fight...
Can i just ask, do people sit in Cycrow UG on PPUs waiting for something to happen? o_O
Can i just ask, do people sit in Cycrow UG on PPUs waiting for something to happen? o_O
Yeah, macroing int until there's another lone enemy outside waiting to get glued to the ground. o_O
Dribble Joy
04-10-05, 10:15
If PPUs are ever fixed, vehicles will become more and more important, yet there is little in the way to combat them unless you are in other one or are a HC user. Maybe the spirit mod could come back as an anti tank round?
If PPUs are ever fixed, vehicles will become more and more important, yet there is little in the way to combat them unless you are in other one or are a HC user. Maybe the spirit mod could come back as an anti tank round?
Or let spirit ammunition do a new type of damage (psi?), that isn't affected by sd instead of removing sd?
Dribble Joy
04-10-05, 10:36
Going on the experience of spirit mods back in NC1, I'd rather not :p.
Bugs Gunny
04-10-05, 10:42
There is a way to fix ppus.
-remove parashock (from all classes)
-remove all holy spells from ppu line
-reintroduce apu-ppu malus when both are specced. (will fix the blessed hybrids)
I'm using my ppu more, paraspamming and being a total ppu ass.
Maybe it will make more people complain about the class.
I'm using my ppu more, paraspamming and being a total ppu ass.
Maybe it will make more people complain about the class.
I'm glad your doing your part.
:lol:
There is a way to fix ppus.
-remove parashock (from all classes)
-remove all holy spells from ppu line
-reintroduce apu-ppu malus when both are specced. (will fix the blessed hybrids)
I'm using my ppu more, paraspamming and being a total ppu ass.
Maybe it will make more people complain about the class.
I agree with 2 items there -
Kill Para (Don't care much for it as I use anti para drugs, but still get rid of it)
Balance Hybrids - the APU PPU counter was a good way......
Killing Holy spells for PPU means that the PPU deserves some offence then. You remove his strength from his own arsenal ... its like removing all rares from pvp (Ok Neptune does that already).
You and I both know PPU's have their place, and in the game state for PVM it is a requirement to have a PPU....
Whens the last time a team of 8 guys with no PPU did MC5..... I have never seen it and this is the amazzing thing .....
A team of 2 (PPU + Other) can do MC5 a team of 8 (No PPU) can not do it as quickly and possible not at all... DOY Tunnels the same ... although here you need a larger team ....
Remove holy spells and fix the PVM balance. Or address the Issue... the impact PPU's have on PVP.
I don't think the holy spells should be removed.
It's just the heals that fuck over balance. Blessed and holy heal both need to be toned down, once that's done, it should be ok, even with holy s/d still around.
And remove para ffs. Worst spell ever. No one should need it. And if it's not getting removed, at least give us stackable, not-drugflashing anti drugs.
Dargeshaad
04-10-05, 12:20
Killing Holy spells for PPU means that the PPU deserves some offence then.
The points they used in PPU to cap the holy spells can now be used in APU....problem solved
-remove parashock (from all classes)
And until parashock gets removed, make antiparashock drugs available at any medicare/biochem for 1nc and remove the drugflash associated with using them (so they're now like a spell).
And until parashock gets removed, make antiparashock drugs available at any medicare/biochem for 1nc and remove the drugflash associated with using them (so they're now like a spell).
Or like stam/psi boosters.
Durandal|AI
04-10-05, 13:26
voted for no
make them more easier to kill and even more will appear.
Seraphin[69]
04-10-05, 13:31
I want a heavy weapon for tank spirit modded with WOC ! (because ppu+apu vs ppu+tank is way too boring)
']I want a heavy weapon for tank spirit modded with WOC ! (because ppu+apu vs ppu+tank is way too boring)
Eh, antibuff + tl 25 shelter = dead tank
or
DB + tl 3 heal = dead apu.
But yes I agree with you, ppu + <insert class that isn't a ppu here> is boring.
Dribble Joy
04-10-05, 14:15
']I want a heavy weapon for tank spirit modded with WOC ! (because ppu+apu vs ppu+tank is way too boring)
Yay for WoC necessity for PvP viability!!!
Lucid Dream
05-10-05, 04:02
I vote give me back my damn spirit ammo.
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