View Full Version : Holy Heal Malus
I was thinking about PPUs the other day, watching some PvP - seeing nearly dead and beaten players completely saved by the almight Holy Heal...
In the realm of simplicity, why not just apply the "Foreign Cast Receives a 50% malus" property to Holy Heal?
Isn't that really the problem? I know Dirus has been saying for ages that "it's bugged", whatever that means :p, but wouldn't this malus even the playing field a bit, keeping PPUs safe from harm themselves, but removing the "God Mode: On" flag that basically hits anyone who gets a Holy Heal on them?
KK, you have a test server. Mess around with this! I have a feeling it might really be effective...
Vote n'stuff :p
Holy Heal is the biggest problem as I see it, so Yar!
I was thinking about PPUs the other day, watching some PvP - seeing nearly dead and beaten players completely saved by the almight Holy Heal...
In the realm of simplicity, why not just apply the "Foreign Cast Receives a 50% malus" property to Holy Heal?
Isn't that really the problem? I know Dirus has been saying for ages that "it's bugged", whatever that means :p, but wouldn't this malus even the playing field a bit, keeping PPUs safe from harm themselves, but removing the "God Mode: On" flag that basically hits anyone who gets a Holy Heal on them?
KK, you have a test server. Mess around with this! I have a feeling it might really be effective...
Vote n'stuff :p
I think that 50% is WAY too much of a nerf. But what Dirus was saying about heals being bugged was that they heal your head, chest, and legs sepratly (sp?). So that means that if somone is hiting you over and over in one spot with a heal on you will heal alot less then if they were hiting you all over and damageing all of your body.
@ Tostino: That can't be right. It only takes one Holy Heal and 1.5 seconds to crouch to get most of your HP back. I was under the impression the "bug" was that when you crouched, the Heal was multiplied by 3, healing all 3 body sections at the same time. In which case, it should be a 66% malus, not a 50% :p
But maybe 50% is too much, again, it should be tested.
KK already said, that this is technically impossible.
I would still like to see the Heal get a bit weaker under fire, and i could also imagine this affecting the PPU selfheal.
@ Tostino: That can't be right. It only takes one Holy Heal and 1.5 seconds to crouch to get most of your HP back. I was under the impression the "bug" was that when you crouched, the Heal was multiplied by 3, healing all 3 body sections at the same time. In which case, it should be a 66% malus, not a 50% :p
But maybe 50% is too much, again, it should be tested.
It's eayser to test with a normal Heal. It's not just with Holy Heal that it happens. So if you have somone using a Rav or Healing Light it is almost imposible to kill somone with a Blessed/Holy Heal beacuse their health is going up so much faster then it would if you were using say a Dissy/CS.
KK already said, that this is technically impossible.
What? Giving a malus to foreign casts? Thats what happens with Def and Shelters right? Why not with heals.
As Mehirc says - it has been stated in the past (searched forum a while but no joy) that it wasn't possible to implement a remote malus to heals within the restrictions of the code as it (then) currently stood.
I'm not aware of anything changing in this regard, so presumably it's still true.
I think it's fair to say that the (over)effectiveness of PPU healing capabilities is probably the biggest single issue with the whole class - it certainly needs attention *somehow*.
Another FN Five Star post.
Yar for now. I would love to see PPUs turned into a 'pet' class. So they can do similar things to SC but maybe biological pets. They should keep their holy sd but they should only be self cast
Yar for now. I would love to see PPUs turned into a 'pet' class. So they can do similar things to SC but maybe biological pets. They should keep their holy sd but they should only be self cast
You know ... I had to re-read that two times because I saw `pets` as `pest`.
I'm still not convinced I wasn't right the first time :angel:
pest would be more accurate.
i like fn idea. big HH nerf is nice, if anything 50% isnt enough.
PPUs need fixing, and heals are definately a big part of that. I don't think a big-hammer 50% heal nerf really solves anythig though.
Lifewaster
14-09-05, 02:14
Yes but do it for blessed heals also. Else will have ppus using blessed on foreign casts.
PPU's i think are a complex problem, because on the one hand you wouldn't be able to go against certain mobs without their heals (i'm thinking juggie facility and doy tunnels), but on the other they can make a crap tank invincible against a more skilled tank. so what's the solution that keeps them good for PvM, but not so good for PvP?
well this would require certain mobs to be rebalanced, which i cant believe would be too difficult for kk to just reduce the dmg a mob does...
PPU's i think are a complex problem, because on the one hand you wouldn't be able to go against certain mobs without their heals (i'm thinking juggie facility and doy tunnels), but on the other they can make a crap tank invincible against a more skilled tank. so what's the solution that keeps them good for PvM, but not so good for PvP?
i dislike ppus but er they shoudl make a crap tank invincable against a good tank, what they shoudlnt do it make a good tank invinable against 5 good tanks, thats where the unbalance comes, a 2 on 1 ppu+tank v tank the team should win
tank+tank against ppu+tank should have the same chances at winning but they dont
i would usualy find my self agreeing with u fn but a 50% sledge hammer throws things rite out of whack, id prefer they get the heal loaction error sorted out rather than just hammer a square peg into a round hold n call it a fix
that said im up to test anything, maby it would work well
Asurmen Spec Op
14-09-05, 03:26
PPU's i think are a complex problem, because on the one hand you wouldn't be able to go against certain mobs without their heals (i'm thinking juggie facility and doy tunnels), but on the other they can make a crap tank invincible against a more skilled tank. so what's the solution that keeps them good for PvM, but not so good for PvP?
PVM was changed when PPUs were added, why not....
change it back?
PVM was changed when PPUs were added, why not....
change it back?
cos its probably so deaply inbedded in the coding its become a cancer and u removed it and half the organims shuts down :D
hehe here that ppus UR CANCER :P
Asurmen Spec Op
14-09-05, 03:36
cos its probably so deaply inbedded in the coding its become a cancer and u removed it and half the organims shuts down :D
hehe here that ppus UR CANCER :P
dmg go down...
how fucking hard is that?
*waits for nidd to piss on his parade
PPU's i think are a complex problem, because on the one hand you wouldn't be able to go against certain mobs without their heals (i'm thinking juggie facility and doy tunnels), but on the other they can make a crap tank invincible against a more skilled tank. so what's the solution that keeps them good for PvM, but not so good for PvP?
To quote myself from a different thread recently ....
KK have got 3+ years invested in the ridiculous PPU positive feedback loop dead end.
[boost PPU -> boost Mob -> boost weapons -> boost PPU -> repeat]
It's sprawled out like an invasive cancer to affect every aspect of the game so that nothing except total teardown & rebuild from scratch will ever fix it.
Realistically ... can you ever see that happening with the financing and resources KK have at hand ?
:(The end result of the positive feedback loop is that the gap between capabilities of a PPU'd and non PPU'd character has grown stupidly large.
Instead of offering , say, a decent `edge` in like for like combat situations a PPU these days makes you instantly worth 5 of any non PPU'd character. Your `combat skillz` are pretty much irrelvant.
Doing something with the heal is a pretty quick and dirty fix, and certainly doesn't address all issues but it's about all I think we could realistically hope to have any time soon.
I'm not sure what to do, but I know a ppu can keep even me alive vs. 4x what would normaly kill me. And i know that isn't right, I won't turn down the offer of ppu support but I dont really like it.
'course, im a spy so what its a rare day i get ppu support anyways.
Asurmen Spec Op
14-09-05, 05:16
plus your too cool for ppus
If not 50% malus on Holy Heal then mayby:
1.Holy Heal slef cast only
2. Fix Group spells to lasts same time on all ppl that are close enough to get it and ppu will use Holy Gropu Heal in PvM (mobs can get group shleter and def but they arnt healed by group heal or heal ratio is too small to be a problem), PvP is close combat usually so Holy Group Heal will be kind useless
3. So Blessed Heal for PvP.
Simply, no. Why? Because Dirus was/is working on something, which will bring a big change to the whole healing issue (and has an impact on many other things, too).
Maybe we should give every class an ability to make others "uber", so everyone gets her/his toy to play with ...
Dargeshaad
14-09-05, 07:57
I'd rather just see all holy spells removed, but that's just me
I don't mind the holy heal. Have you ever nib buffed a ppu/apu with a deflector then hammered away with a pain easier/termi. No holy heal is saving them from that, period.
It's the foreign cast shields that fuck up everything and throw it way out of balance. Why? Because they give too much of a defense boost to classes that shouldn't have high defense i.e. apus. What I'm saying is, keep the ability for the apu to get to full health in 5 seconds, however if (s)he stays fighting that other apu/pe/spy/tank for a second too long (s)he's gone.
RogerRamjet
14-09-05, 08:51
Arent Holy Shields the reason they brought in the Holy Antibuff :p
Bugs Gunny
14-09-05, 09:04
Funny, how it takes monks to kill ppu-ed monks.... while all other classes can easily kill each other.
RogerRamjet
14-09-05, 09:35
Funny, how it takes monks to kill ppu-ed monks.... while all other classes can easily kill each other.
Ive killed a pile of APUs who had a PPU with my tank. And spy for that matter.
Dev > you.
Not casting deflector when someones using a Pain Easer > you.
(Althought i too have had a PPU with my tank, but my spy i just suprised em).
Ive killed a pile of APUs who had a PPU with my tank. And spy for that matter.
Dev > you.
Not casting deflector when someones using a Pain Easer > you.
Only works on people who don't know how to spec poison on a monk though :(
You can dev someone with poison resist all day and they'll just laugh at you.
RogerRamjet
14-09-05, 09:37
But he who laughs last laughes the longest.
FWUHAHAHAHAAA.
But he who laughs last laughes the longest.
FWUHAHAHAHAAA.
Yeah.
:wtf:
RogerRamjet
14-09-05, 09:47
Perhaps using Holy Anti Heal might help, but i dont know, seems like a waste.
(PS. Come into another vent channel crunch)
Perhaps using Holy Anti Heal might help, but i dont know, seems like a waste.
U are so damn right...... as holy anti heal needs an apu to cast it, u can just cast hab, which removes the shields,too.... soo
HOLY ANTI HEAL = CRAP
Scanner Darkly
15-09-05, 16:26
Let's remove it completely and just keep holy heal group with extended range :D
Fuck. I just realised how annoying ppus can be. TBH all monks are just completely pointless. APUs for example: can kill a player in about 5 secs and can do so with no need for reticle closing. Where is the fun in that?? 0o. And ppus. It's as if they are made just to fuck up the game for the person who doesn't have one. Just getting primes from a ppu is a big enough advantage in itself. Then there are hybs. The class that I know from experience, can just go around killing ANY lone player apart from ppu monks. Stop trying to make the game look prettier for a day or 2 and do something about it because it doesn't matter how nice it looks if the gameplay is crappy
Dribble Joy
15-09-05, 23:38
All classes should be of equal benefit to a team and none should give said team a distinct advantage. People should be able to play the class they WANT, not the one that is needed to win.
The problem with PPUs is without the proper modifications they will either remain too powerful, or become utterly useless.
As I see it, heals should not be included (as they are) in to the PPU line of abilities for the purposes of balancing..
All heals should do the same healing rate, Ie. all doing the same as a tl3 heal, but with the duration increased (so a HH has a duration of... 90 seconds).
Then the other skills (lvl 3 buffs, DB, foreign shields (which would have to be adjusted so they affect all classes equally, either a stack on self casts or preferrably a % hp increase)) would be those increasing a fighter's capacity.
A heat/haz 3, PC/RC/HC/MC 3, DB and 30% hp boost would easily double the power of a fighting char, but still remain killable.
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