View Full Version : A Proposal - Please Read
Whew its been a intresting couple of months patchs wise and infomation wise.
But issues have flared up again and hot debate has lead to pure flames, so I have a little proposal to runners and to KK. There are a few basic stages but it doesn't require anything particularly specialy on either kk or the runners part.
First stage is nomination of respected community leaders to form a council of as yet undetermined size, There is nothing particularly special about this council except the members of the council become officially recognised by both KK and Runners as Respected Community leaders that make up a good respresntation of the community of NC.
Second stage of this would require something on KK's part inorder to help things along but we could go else if the help wasn't provided. To set up a sub forum on the NC forums to cover the issue that the council will be address which is stage three.
Third stage over a period of a couple of months idea's, suggestion, improvements, area's of concern are brought up in the forum and are actively and positively discussed. Without intervention by any KK staff unless ask for by the council this will only be in the case of things like flaming and trolling and simple moderation of the forums.
Fourth Stage at the end of the discussion period the council takes the contents of the fourm to condenses it down into a report of what the community feel it wants and how the game should change and be. This is then posted on the forum for a final review for a week or so before it is taken down and any final changes are made.
Final Stage the report is presented to KK Staff mainly the Dev team and posted on the main forums for ongoing discussion. This would be seen as a suggestion and guide as to what the community expects from the game.
If the right people are selected for the council I can see good things coming from this especially as we're near to releases of other games that fit into the same niche as neocron. I think the game needs to start taking attention of what people want to see if its going to survive.
Personally I would like to see Peopl such as Cmaster, Heavyporker, FN and Bugs Gunny in the council as these are already well known established members of the community.
So what your suggesting is basicly Nidhogg and Theme Weeks?
Nop that was KK, this is completely runner controled until the final report is handed over this is about the community telling KK what it wants, not KK telling the community NO to everything that crops up on the forum It would be about making realistic well thought out proposals that would be hard to argue against. And this is not theme weeks in anyform cus nothing would be done ingame before the reports finished
Nop that was KK, this is completely runner controled until the final report is handed over this is about the community telling KK what it wants, not KK telling the community NO to everything that crops up on the forum It would be about making realistic well thought out proposals that would be hard to argue against. And this is not theme weeks in anyform cus nothing would be done ingame before the reports finished
And why would you need anyone's permission but your own to create a council of you and fellow players to determine what you want?
Didn't at any point say we needed permission from anyone but we would like KK onboard as the end result is for them.
Didn't at any point say we needed permission from anyone but we would like KK onboard as the end result is for them.
True. There would be little point in putting the effort in, if KK was not going to bother looking at the end results. I suspect KK is monitoring the posts and taking notice but unfortunatly, they are always not telling us that they are taking notice.
I'd disagree if things are done more formaly than just pure monitoring of forum posts I would feel that KK would perhaps have to take more notice of it than just simple looking at posts and making decisions for the community based on a few peoples whines. This would be something that alot of work would go into making researching the communities view so that it does represent the majority of the community but is a guide for KK.
Dribble Joy
11-08-05, 01:16
A completely player run report on what is wanted in the game is just never going to work.
Look at the threads here on the forum, look at how divided the community is on virtually every subject.
Bringing together a list of things that have general, widespread consensus will produce something so bland and devoid of anything that it won't contain anything KK doesn't allready want to do.
Good luck I suppose....
Fair points joy, but that what the council is there for to filter stuff and condense it down into a acurate report even it is bland and what kk whats least its telling them there on the right track and removes any insecurities they have about putting stuff in.
A Divided community often provides the most inuative solutions to problems. Even if there are nay sayers whats the harm in trying, thats the problem these days people have got into the rut of we're not going to be listened to so why bother, so don't really contribute to the game. If we go ahead get everything down at least people can go we told you want we wanted, when NC hits the wall cus it will if somethings not done soon it will.
Jesterthegreat
11-08-05, 01:39
anyone on the coucil will still act (at least partially) for themselves. they will highlight what they think are key issues more than what they think shouldnt be changed.
an idea that has been suggested many times... prolly by myself too... but as dj said it would be unlikely to work.
i would rather we convinsed nid to give us more updates on things.
like in the big para thread back in jan (iirc) where he said he would bring up the concern about para in the next meeting but couldnt promise results. being told that he brought it up and kk said this would be more use than a bunch of semi official players arguing about whats more important.
1) This wouldn't be about giving the players updates on whats going on
2) Nid can still only tell us what KK whats him to tell us
3) If your so sure it won't work why are you been anti about it.
Least im actively trying to do something that isn't dependant on KK and isn't sitting around and whineing about stuff, and as for people acting in their own intrest on the council well yes that happens with any human being that is why it is a council so not a single person makes decisions.
Jesterthegreat
11-08-05, 08:18
afaik my opinion that it won't work has just as much place on the forum as your opinion it does work.
if you really want to do it then why would me not thinking it will work stop you? do you want every single player to agree with it? the community doesnt agree about a single thing.
anyone on the coucil will still act (at least partially) for themselves. they will highlight what they think are key issues more than what they think shouldnt be changed.
This is why i'm against it.
Dr Strange
11-08-05, 10:05
speaking of theme weeks, whatever happened to them?..
Yeash what a bunch of negative freaks your obviously not intrested in trying to help kk and keep the game alive be it on your heads then when a good game with so much potential goes to the wall.
Edit:
This post is now to be ignored due to returning faith in the community of neocron
I'd be more than happy to work with a small focus group to help determine the thoughts and mood of the wider community. It's something you need to organise yourselves though and I can't make any promises to them, just as I can't to any of you generally. Also, don't expect it to be a walk in the park running such a group - it'll be difficult and frustrating at times, but hopefully rewarding.
I think it's a good idea.
N
Yeash what a bunch of negative freaks your obviously not intrested in trying to help kk and keep the game alive be it on your heads then when a good game with so much potential goes to the wall.
Easy...that attitude isn't going to help your proposal. This thread is only 9 hours old, and only about 4 people have replied. You still got the peeps from Europe who are only gettting up.
I've made my point, and so have others. There are problems to overcome. One said is the community never agrees on anything, and people will represent their own interests, so lets take each major point in turn.
1. The community never agrees on anything - of course it doesn't! It would be the role of the council to represent all arguments, including the minority voices.
2. People will represent their own interests - I think in real life proper council you would declare an interest. I also note that you have proposed 3 people from the pro-city (NC) side. (Correct me if I am wrong) What about the DoY side and the Mercs? And when either sides disagree, see point one above.
It would be the role of the council to represent all arguments, including the minority voices.
Keep this proposal alive, I am backing it.
Edit: I see Nidhogg has replied with a stong positve response. :)
Brammer you know as well as me that most good threads or made or broke within the first few hours. Though nid's post has given me new faith that this game isn't beyond redemption and thanks for the support nid.
As to your points brammer
1) It was the intention from the start for the council to help stop smaller issues getting swamped out by constant high flux issues like para at the moment.
2) As I pointed out earlier the council would of a yet undetermined size, The people I mentioned would be basicly the people I would nominate to be on the council not those wouldn't be confirmed until more members of the community voted for/nominated them and those 4 that I mentioned would only be a small portion of the council I want to bring everyone we can onboard for this, Both German and International Player Communities so idea's and solutions that each community might have for problems could be shared.
Sounds like a good idea to me Toxen, if you need my help gimme a shout
Just to clarify, id support such a thing just though it was going to be version 2 of what i said in my first post in the thread.
Hopefully once you get it sorted it get some stuff the community wants :)
Nid V2 -shudders- :p
How many times you edited that post now?! :confused:
Fair enough Toxen. As for getting the German community involved good idea. (If a little tricky to work)
Nice idea in theory.
Too many opinions in this community I think to make it work.
Your right though some form of document to gather ideas would be great!
I look around the forum a fair bit and there are really useful suggestions scattered amongst posts, even just comments in unrelated posts.
These completely valid and often enlightening ideas are obscured by the Clan v clan banter, the power posters and the overiding BAN monks, Para issues.
Good luck ;)
How many times you edited that post now?! :confused:
Fair enough Toxen. As for getting the German community involved good idea. (If a little tricky to work)
First one was edited only once that was to add FN to the list cus i forgot first time i posted it :P
BloodLetting
11-08-05, 16:13
Can I RP a council members personal gaurd?
Im backing it!
I think it's a good idea. And this council would be the communitys version of Nid, as Nid is kk's (main) voice out to this part of it.
How will this council handle the different servers? Same q's won't rise in the pvp-server as in either of the 4-slot servers nor in the 1-slot server.
I do hope that something like this won't keep the devs from reading theese forums. :)
Well, I'd be happy to help out. I'd also like to see some people reasonably into the opwar scene involved too, like selensil, maybe Morganth (flamy as he is, doesnt mean he can't make good observations), etc.
Dribble Joy
11-08-05, 20:00
I'd be part of this, but given the nature of most of my posting I doubt you want me.
RogerRamjet
11-08-05, 20:05
I wouldnt mind giving it a go tbh, but people who are well known and have obvious influences might be good choices.
Hmm, i dont think a hand full of "well known established members of the community" cant represent the whole community.
as we know from the "PPU Fix", the "GRvsVHC" or "PvPvsTrader" threads there are so many ideas and opinions on one toppic that a few ppl cant sum them up without ignoring a big part of the community.
i would like to see more KK initiated Threads like the PPU Fix threads on various toppics that they want input.
Dribble Joy
11-08-05, 20:11
The problem that in any discussion, I will in all likelyness argue my point of view, PPUs, para, etc. Though I generally argue them because I believe they are right for NC, not just me, they are still my PoVs and what I want. So even someone who is completely honourable (in theory, not saying me), will be unable to work with the others in the group.
Jesterthegreat
11-08-05, 20:12
The problem that in any discussion, I will in all likelyness argue my point of view, PPUs, para, etc. Though I generally argue them because I believe they are right for NC, not just me, they are still my PoVs and what I want. So even someone who is completely honourable (in theory, not saying me), will be unable to work with the others in the group.
everyone would... but at least you are honest about it.
Dribble Joy
11-08-05, 20:24
Example:
I want the main stat bonus/malus removed from PEPA, as part of a larger effort to pry appart spies and PEs. It just so happens that I have 100 dex without my PEPA of course, other than loosing a very slight amount of freq, I am not really at a disadvantage.
I also want PEs to loose DB in PvP, but of course the fact that I rarely if ever use it myself doesn't help my arguement.
Jesterthegreat
11-08-05, 20:32
personally i agree with PE PA, however i disagree with DB.
what i would prefer (though it seems drastic and would need testing) if if PE's couldnt use rares... but used DB to get up to equal damage of other classes... but have better solo defences than all but PPUs.
of course anti DB drugs mean it wouldnt work... but its something that i think could work with some changes to the game.
either way i wasn't suggested for the council and i wouldnt want to be on itif i was suggested. i'd rather discuss what i feel are issues and give my opinion rather than giving a "community" opinion.
Dribble Joy
11-08-05, 21:02
i'd rather discuss what i feel are issues and give my opinion rather than giving a "community" opinion.
Heh, the wonders of a coalition government :p.
Rightio firstio I never said that this would be easy just easy implement the structure underneath. By deafult everyone is part of the group that can nominate people and propose idea's. The council is there to filter out the discussions and form ideas and proposal into the final document. Their suggestions are just the same as everyone elses and will have to be discussed so its quite possible that a council members suggestion could never even make it to the final document. The councils job is also to guide discussion and stop people going off on unrealistic idea's and then act as a representative of the communities desires for the game and in the communities best intrests, Im not saything that the council will simply tell KK what everyone wants right out. But help shape the communities wants into a reasonable package for KK to look at.
Uggh im trying to think of a good analogy this ones probably not the best but here goes.
The community of neocron is like an orchestra, each intrument (player) has its own unqiue tune and sound(Points of view). Alone each instrument against the others produces a chaotic mess and any coherance is lost and nothing is gained from it. Now the council is the conductor to the orchestra guiding and leader making sure that things are played in time and bring order to the piece.
It is the councils job to sort through bickering pick out valid points and reduce them to raw idea's see wether they are appropriate offer possible overlooked alternatives and basicly lay everything on the table that could be done and take the sum of the dicussion as a final suggestion.
i'd rather discuss what i feel are issues and give my opinion rather than giving a "community" opinion.
Tbh alone your opinion is lost to the wind of other opinions and flames you are only one man trying to change the world you can bring up issues that you feel are important and bring them for dicussion and voice your opinions in this process they then become part of the communities opinion. If they are good valid and supported by everyone else they will make it to the final document because you will have the backing of others but there will always a difference of opinion thats what makes this process tick out of difference new solutions are spawned that might not have been conceived.
No one will ever get exactly what they want in NC who ever thinks that is dillusional, but we can help nudge KK in the right direct to what makes the game closest to what the majority of people want. For example If I said outside of the council discussion that I wanted Stealth removed completly from game, I'd most likely just get ignored flamed probably but inside the council community discussions people could question why I suggested this I would have to provide valid reasons then it would be discussed further to see if theres any weight in my arguments and if there is its taken to voting etc and if the majority and we're talking true majority here we'ed carry out extensive research into what people felt about this it would be passed.
KK just need to balance out what the people want, the remove parra threads for example, some want it gone and some want it to stay. There is alot they could do to help ease the frustration of parra shock instead of removing or nerfing it, they could make anti shock drugs stack in belts and remove the turn speed nerf it causes.
Example:
I want the main stat bonus/malus removed from PEPA, as part of a larger effort to pry appart spies and PEs. It just so happens that I have 100 dex without my PEPA of course, other than loosing a very slight amount of freq, I am not really at a disadvantage.
I also want PEs to loose DB in PvP, but of course the fact that I rarely if ever use it myself doesn't help my arguement.
I disagree with removing DB from PE's as it is easy to counter damage blocker ftw, unlike parra shock DB does not stop you from moving. I almost always carry anti damage boost pills and when I'm 1 vs 1 with another PE all my free slots are filled with them. I will always DB someone and while I do this I take a battering because I'm hardly moving around.
Dribble Joy
11-08-05, 21:42
Half way fixes can cause as much annoyance as full fixes, for both sides.
You want a JCB, or you ok with just your spade?
Jesterthegreat
11-08-05, 21:46
KK just need to balance out what the people want, the remove parra threads for example, some want it gone and some want it to stay. There is alot they could do to help ease the frustration of parra shock instead of removing or nerfing it, they could make anti shock drugs stack in belts and remove the turn speed nerf it causes.
I disagree with removing DB from PE's as it is easy to counter damage blocker ftw, unlike parra shock DB does not stop you from moving. I almost always carry anti damage boost pills and when I'm 1 vs 1 with another PE all my free slots are filled with them. I will always DB someone and while I do this I take a battering because I'm hardly moving around.
indeed. a good tank can half kill a PE by the time he has cast his DB.
Well I would say that DB needs higher mana cost :) because it can be spammed to easly and same with bloody parra :mad:
Dribble Joy
11-08-05, 21:57
My point about DB was that it makes PEs overpowered (given that PEs are reasonably balanced without it) in a no PPU situation.
If you then try to balance PEs to include DB, all well and good untill another player on the PE's side turns up, the benefit of DB on the PE is lost as the other players are also therefore gaining from it's affect. So you could either make it a self cast spell, or just not bother (too much hassle frankly), fix PPUs and include it in their arsenal of team boosting skills that will affect everyone equally.
Anyway, back on topic.... it'll never work...
Oi People stop hijacking my thread back on topic and Lil T thats the whole point of this thing to help KK realise what the community wants stuff like the para is always in too much flux for KK to make an accurate decision on things like para, council would sort out things like this and give people chances to object before the final document draft.
Shenyu Reza
11-08-05, 23:34
Change monks, not remove them :rolleyes: .
And you want nerf PE... strange, I'm not surprise... :rolleyes:
Pe tank and spies are good how they are
edit: sorry PE is my favorite class, i play them since 3 years and i know it's not THE problem of the balancing... (sorry my english too :p )
Yeash oi on topic please this is not acutaly discussion of the issues ingame this is discussion about forming the council. Nid you know what to do if people keep it up
Dribble Joy
12-08-05, 14:32
And you want nerf PE... strange, I'm not surprise... :rolleyes:
If they need 'nerfing' then yes, if anything needs a 'nerf' then I will say it does.
I am far from a monk lover, but as my sig says, monks don't need to be removed, they need a change.
If you didn't know anyway, I am also a PE of 3 years (nearly, NC1 retail start), that will not however stop me from wanting any part of them that is broken being fixed.
Asurmen Spec Op
12-08-05, 14:43
If they need 'nerfing' then yes, if anything needs a 'nerf' then I will say it does.
I am far from a monk lover, but as my sig says, monks don't need to be removed, they need a change.
If you didn't know anyway, I am also a PE of 3 years (nearly, NC1 retail start), that will not however stop me from wanting any part of them that is broken being fixed.
Yeah, DJ is the forum boyscout, he does whats right and I get drunk
Rightio, by the fact that everyones now chatting about DB and PE's in what was sposed to be about a council, I assume that the council idea now has unanimous support and will begin implementing it nid, if they continue on about stuff not pertaining to the forming of a council please close the thread.
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