View Full Version : What would you do?
Ok, here are facts:
SXR's 'peak' hours are between 10pm and 2am EST. We're a combination of late-night US/Canada players and Early UK/European players. Every clan has peak hours and those are ours. So from the hours of 8pm to 10pm, as people are logging in, after their getting home from their jobs, after having dinner with their families, or whatever - we're scouting OPs. Like every other clan in Neocron, we actually want fights at OPs.
Tonight, here is the Outpost INFO:
http://www.synergyxr.net/images/fn/aug03/outposts.jpg
So our possible targets are:
http://www.synergyxr.net/images/fn/aug03/ff.jpg
http://www.synergyxr.net/images/fn/aug03/paradox.jpg
http://www.synergyxr.net/images/fn/aug03/r2k.jpg
Those are our choices during our active clan hours. Even if we wanted to turn on CityMercs:
http://www.synergyxr.net/images/fn/aug03/FLR.jpg
So night after night, these are what our options in OP Warring are. So our small teams, tonight consisting of this:
http://www.synergyxr.net/images/fn/aug03/team.jpg
Picked the clan with the most people. Pro-City had no Labs so we went for Chester. At first, the usual OOC banter, calling us those lovely NC-buzz words, ensued.
More Facts:
- Most big clans, on this 4-slot server, have alts. When a clan displays X number of people online, 99.9% of the time there are a few people on their Voice Comms who are on non-clanned Alts.
- Nobody knows if any of the people in a clan, listed as online, are AFK except for that person and their clanmates if they've been nice enough to notify their clan.
I had a conversation tonight with Xenomorph about this entire subjuct. We are not out to take OPs when nobody from a clan is online, if were were going to do that, we'd take them all. Not one OP and wait there for a fight, be it more people from the opposing clan logging on, the opposing clan calling over Alliance, etc.
SXR's peak hours are not Terra's peak hours, that's obvious. But where does that leave us and the other 100 people who are on Terra during it's 'off-peak' hours? To never OP fight? To get new jobs and rearrange our lives for a game? To move to a different timezone? I don't think so. The real problem, the bottom line, is this:
Neocron does not have a high enough population to support 24/7 OP Fighting.
So how do the people in the game, who pay for their accounts just like everyone else, get to enjoy any OP-based PvP? I don't know what the answer is to that, aside from the populations having a low of 200. But as I see it at the moment, every clan in the game right now is oriented towards their clan and only their clan.
Tonight, evidently two [opposing clan members] were able to respond and one was AFK. Had [opposing clan] called on Alliance and gotten 2-3 more fighters, the fight would've been even. I totally commend [the two tanks and spy] for coming out - we even rezzed them after the fact. We're not out for grief, nor to n**** or z***.
The exact same is true to us from our perception - we lose OPs when our clan is not at peak. There should be no problem with Pro-City, as a whole, responding to Anti-City when attacking an OP. And if it's the only way the ~100 players who are online during Terra's "off-peak" hours is to resort to Alliance vs Alliance, what's wrong with that?
We're tired of sitting on the sidelines, watching the clans who are just as active as us, just at different times, make all the rules and own all the OPs. I've been talking with many other people in-game, who surprisingly are in the same position.
So I ask, what's wrong with making the game more Alliance vs Alliance based, when it come to Outposts? Isn't that what NC2 was more geared towards?
*sigh* I hope I'm not coming across as flaming anyone here, I don't mean to be. The entire 'argument' is a total battle of perception, really. Our enemies claim the attacks are n**** hacks. When our primary active players get around to logging, it looks like the same thing to us. Timezones, activity, limited ways to know your enemy's status - they all contribute to everyone screaming at eachother and pointing fingers about the exact same thing. Every clan considers themselves in the right and their enemies in the wrong.
Fewer clans with a restriction of the # of OPs they can own? Maybe if more than 5/6 clans owned OPs more battles would happen? Then again, maybe not, I really don't know. I'm just wondering, when and how will it this animosity end? And when will "allowable" 24/7 OP Warring begin? At the moment, OOC erupts in flames if any OP activity happens in Terra's "off-peak" hours, and let's face it, Terra won't be averaging 60% highs and 20% lows any time soon :(
Edit: Nid - I'll edit any images or text needed to keep this open, I would really like some constructive communication about what the future should hold, not flames about the past.
[PiN]Fluffy
03-08-05, 08:33
East Coast Represent! lol. yes i feel ya man. We need more people. But sadly if think Neocron ever got up to 500 people on at once opfights would probably consist of 50+ people in a zone all the time. LOL could u imagine the really big opfights? 70+ people in 1 zone maybe? LOL neocron would melt down IMO.
Teh killa Fluffeh
Fluffy Spy? You were the only one in your clan online from around 9pm-10pm EST - we thought about taking a hack down at an FF OP to see your reaction - to see if more clan members would've logged. But I hope this illustrates it wouldn't have been an action to spite your clan, or piss you off - it's just a group of people looking for a fight.
We've raided DoY during our active hours, that's the most pointless thing, ever. We've raided CRP, that's fun until PPUs show up. What's left? I'm sure you wouldv'e been pissed had we done a hack *sigh*
The best solution I can think of FN is to turn off OOC - I am never offended by insults that I don't hear ;)
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me!"
With current population problems, I see no problem with KK making OPs more "allianced-based" in the sense that when pro-city hacks a layer from anti-city, a message is played across anti-city alliance chat, which then allows people of that alliance to GR into the UG without synap.
Then, when those 45 people that are all on anti-city, who are all in different clans, but all bored just the same see that Simmons is being hacked, they can all GR in and try to work together "for the good of the alliance" to hold onto it.
This also removes the "oh my god you ninja-hacked our OP", because you can't say the attackers are ninja-hacking if the entire alliance has a CHANCE to all show up at once. You can't really say the attackers zerged if they have a chance of being completely outnumbered once they start the hack and the entire other side knows they're doing it. The best part though, is that you can't claim either of these, because you can't just look at a number of people online in a clan anymore and expect it to either be a turkey shoot or a suicide run. You have to be prepared for the worst. There's no more, "Well, let's take this one, because we know they can't fight back with the amount of people they have online." And the defenders can't say, "Well guys, ____ is attacking us and they have 15 players online, so we can't fight em - we only have 5 people." How do they know they could only have 5 when 25 people from their own "side" could have GRed in, ready to help them fight to keep it. Ergh, that was really confusing, I hope someone got my point.
OP wars are where the real PvP is at. Why deny anyone the right to participate in it, especially if they feel up for it?
Even with the potential grief issues involved in teamkilling, it'd still beat the living hell out of our current system, I think. I know for a fact that if this went into effect, I'd be on a lot more, eager to help other factions on my side who are in need of help because they lack in support.
Definitely needs to be brought to KK's attention, FN. Great post, as usual. ;)
Five stars for increased PvP and fun at OP wars from me. http://forum.neocron.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
[PiN]Fluffy
03-08-05, 09:33
Well me and My Crazy Ass "Finish Gimp" buddy who doesnt sleep :p went to raid chester screamed on OOC for about 10 minutes and none showed up. That dissapoints me... Especially considering the 1st time we went i crashed when u zoned up and died and did not even get a chnace to fight. lol. I NEED MY REVENGE!
op fights were never really fun for me.
but i have the same problems even if i play on supposed "peak times". Yes terra has 18-22% there usually, still, besides OP battles everything is empty, i just log on patrol 2/3 of the wastelands, checking all possible hot spots, finally ending up in NF or just loggin off.
there isnt enough population in NC2, and it doesnt really matter if its peak time or not.
Dr Strange
03-08-05, 09:51
I definitely agree and understand
My personal hours are around 6pm through 5-6am. Not all of that is devoted to Neocron solely, generally 8pm-Midnight is usually saved for PvP in other MMO's.
I on a personal level, won't reset my schedule simply to suit Neocron. I've done it before in the past and it was boring as hell. There were a few more people online during the day, but the "day" being like 11 am in the morning when it's like 6pm in Europe (based off of France's timezone). And even then it's only a few hours of "peak time" for the server, so by the time it's like 3 or 4pm EST, most people are logging off, and I'm personally left with the rest of the afternoon/evening to do whatever...
Which leads to my schedule as is. I mean if the pop is only gonna be peaked for a few hours, I'd rather just go with the normal "low" pop, during the time period I choose.
The PvP in NC itself doesn't support the game's pop numbers. I only play Dome characters, and the Dome is a ghost town. The only time you have a remote chance of seeing someone, is to go to the faction HQ's of the larger clans, usually just TG and Crahn. Even then it's an off chance of running into a player who's probably tradeskilling or doing ress/cst missions...
As for lvling and hunting, there are tons of great spots but everyone just congregates in the same place(s) so if you have even the remotely slightest urge to level with another human player, better make sure your spots of hunting are Chaos Caves, CRP, Military Base..
Obviously, an active clan helps most of these issues out. But then you're in FN's boat of having to sort your schedule not only with the clans, but with the servers at the same time. And that's if you want OP war pvp, assuming your schedule, the clans schedule and the servers peak time is in alignment with the opposing clan having enough members online...
I don't mind grinding through PvE to get to PvP or hunting rare parts for days on end to build what I need, what I do mind is doing it in a virtual world that is virtually empty.
Remember when you found something rare or a rare part for the first time? And you were like "holy shit, I found a rare part!" Yea, I get that feeling now whenever I see a live, human player, in the Dome, and the Wastelands.
Original monk
03-08-05, 10:02
op fights were never really fun for me.
i found OPfighting enjoyable early NC1 :) we didnt had no rares, ppu's where nonexistant ... maybe a few hybrids yeah but not comparable to what we have now ...
but mainly tanks, spys and PE's :)
600 people online ... no shit with hacking, HN came in a few years later .. yust a layer maybe 3 and kabaam you where in the middle of a smallscale war :)
extremely enjoyable ... 20 tanks on a mountain ... 20 tanks downstairs and tadaa ... all shooting with there huw burner RC275 at eachother, a few had a plasmacannon or plasmawave .. maybe even the TL 84 gatlingcannon WHOA :D ... libbyshots everywhere the occasional spy sniping with a laserrifle ... fun fun !
[PiN]Fluffy
03-08-05, 10:04
[ edited for spam ]
Original monk
03-08-05, 10:07
Fluffy']Btw for you noobz QFT=
thanx for the explenation, i dont speak the leetspeak :)
Asurmen Spec Op
03-08-05, 10:41
Just ignore the pissing and moaning on OOC, or just take pleasure in it.
QFE is better btw
Bugs Gunny
03-08-05, 11:06
Yeah original, that's the REAL opfighting.
A lot more fun than the paraspamming monkfest it has turned into.
Original monk
03-08-05, 11:41
tough when you got para-ed in the days you where fucked lol ... totally UNable to turn around or move, freeze was real freeze back then :)
tough the time i was talking about noone knew alot about neocron, everyone had to find out by emselves what did what ... there was no decent manual hehe ... and there where no loms so you couldnt alter the mistakes you made in youre setup: pure resist psi anyone ? :P
but the monkthing wasnt a problem, monks where rare and pures didnt exist :)
also the OPhacking was loads more fun ... 1 hack in the beginning and you had an OP i think lol (if i remember right) ... later changed to 3 hacks :) but even with the 3 hacks you had people going round OP's hacking one layer everytime yust to make the clan go nuts (ROFL: carniflex :P)
<O>wnage days :)
tough when you got para-ed in the days you where fucked lol ... totally UNable to turn around or move, freeze was real freeze back then :)
Those were they days when everyone was carrying two weapons; one main weapon and one freezer. Whoever got their freezer in first won, partly because the one that got zapped started to move everything expensive from their QB to their inventory.
Lifewaster
03-08-05, 11:55
My opinion, while big op fights with balanced numbers are fun, small scale ones can be just as much fun.
I dont see why you guys should be put off by ooc. However the big problem I think is the inability to hack back without 4 hackers online. As the customary OP scene is to lose an OP then have the actual fight to get it back..
What I mean is , I spend hours of off peak time hanging about crp looking for fights, sometimes I see a msg on DOY alliance asking for help versus a so-called-ninja , When I arrive at the fight , theres usually 4 or 5 random DOY runners also turned up, along with 1 or 2 members of the defending clan.
So the numbers are there for a fight , but 9 times out of 10 , the ops already been lost , and the defending clan simply says "we dont have hackers atm, we will just ninja it back later"
So theres one solution that can be easily made by players themselves. If you want a fight for an op, simply hack layer 1 , then wait 15 minutes before you attempt the further layers. This way you are giving time to them to allow ppl to come and help defend .
So when the ooc bitching starts , you can simply say "we gave you 15 mins to bring any DOY runners there"
Course the easiest solution for KK, is to put a 15 minute timer between first hack and other hacks anyway.........
Those were they days when everyone was carrying two weapons; one main weapon and one freezer. Whoever got their freezer in first won, partly because the one that got zapped started to move everything expensive from their QB to their inventory.
lol i remember dragging my cs out my belt a few times, still got my 5 slot longer lasting extra freeze freezer cannon
*wipes a tear* them wer the days lol Tankacron!!! :p
Yeah you guys have a problem there. KK haven't released Neocron 2 properly in US so the timezone you play in isn't as populated as it was with Neocron 1. What you need is an Anti-City clan of your timezone's players to fight. Back in the day the mega-clans had enough players from all timezones to have 24 hour op defence and it was a lot of fun (and flames!)
Your alternative is as Lifewaster says, to wait after 15 minutes before taking the 2nd layer, or shout on OOC that you are going to attack.
Your ops weren't taken back during the peak European hours last night so I think DoY know that you are a different timezone and didn't take them all back.
Original monk
03-08-05, 12:51
Those were they days when everyone was carrying two weapons; one main weapon and one freezer. Whoever got their freezer in first won, partly because the one that got zapped started to move everything expensive from their QB to their inventory.
lol yeah ! i allready forgot everyone carried freezers in those days :P funny fights .. 2 snails attacking eachother :D
Bugs Gunny
03-08-05, 13:05
KK should make an automated message spanning all channels.
Once an op's first layer gets hacked they should have this go on:
"All runners from (insert clan here), relog to your clanned MONKS now !!!!!!"
Picked the clan with the most people. Pro-City had no Labs so we went for Chester. At first, the usual OOC banter, calling us those lovely NC-buzz words, ensued.
:-)
Just relog to a doy alt and spam a bit on their alliance chat:
"All <insert clan to be attacked here> members please relog your fighting alts"
KK do seem to want to steer the game towards a city vs city style of fighting, so it makes perfect sense to treat every pro-city op as being owned by the entire population of NC, and vice-versa for those anti-city types(they get full bonuses and can gr in without symp). The only problem I see is, where would the city mercs fit into that kind of system.
RogerRamjet
03-08-05, 13:30
Quite frankly ive gotten sick of OP fights in NC2. Over time the factor of winning has shifted from skill and coordination to simple weight of numbers. The last fun outpost fight i had was when Blood/NC Elite defended Soliko from DarK, FF and Paradox (and im sure people who fought on either side will agree it was alot of fun) which was about 2 months ago, and even before that i enjoyed the smaller fights between The One and BRTF at Chester and OPs around there.
The OP scene doesnt interest me anymore, especially with each side whining over ninja hacks then doing it themselves when they have the opportunity.
I think when my account eventually gets re-activated (goddam C2P :rolleyes: ) I think ill start role-playing.
Jesterthegreat
03-08-05, 13:32
DM someone thats online from one of the clan. tell them you want a fight, or (if you're feeling aggressive) you are going to take an op or two.
see if they log more on.
some clans are sporting enough to actually want good fights more than ops. i have had this with R2K... have had them hack one of our ops, then stop because they realised we were fighting another clan. had them rez us all after we lost an op and had a chat... then left and agreed not to attack the op for a bit.
otherwise you could always DM a ranked member of an allied clan. the other pro city clans must be in a similar situation... you could arrange a practice op war, or even arrange a "legal" real op war... now a clan war, but a fight for that single op's ownership.
RogerRamjet
03-08-05, 13:37
I like R2K. <3 Spiro.
Scanner Darkly
03-08-05, 13:54
I will make a hopefully coherent post once Ive had some sleep...
Bugs Gunny
03-08-05, 13:57
I think when my account eventually gets re-activated (goddam C2P :rolleyes: ) I think ill start role-playing.
I'm in :-)
Is it realistic to expect any in game changes to come into effect to help alleviate this problem? NO.
Do clan's truly want to just own ops? probably not.
The ownership of the OP is awarded to the victor of the fight, if there is no one to fight then its just a winning trophy with no competition. How boring and tbh pointless.
The whole Ninja thing is just out of hand, we need to get more people to OP fights in order to get the PvP we all want. The suggestion of using alliance members to bolster numbers is a valid one. Just ignore the bloody OOC because if they had 15 and you 16 they would still cry the numbers bullshit.
Personally I think in amongst the op wars currently going on we need to organise MASS Op wars Red vs Blue style. Chars, bombers, vechs make it a battle to remember and with forward planning could have a good turnout.
Would be good to have reinforcements turn up as different time zones log on.
As to your problem FN, afraid everyone in the same boat and then even when there seems to be loads of a clan on citycom half maybe AFK etc.
:-)
Just relog to a doy alt and spam a bit on their alliance chat:
"All <insert clan to be attacked here> members please relog your fighting alts"
A) I have no DoY Alts
B) No way on Earth I'm going that far out of my way for my *enemy*.
DM someone thats online from one of the clan. tell them you want a fight, or (if you're feeling aggressive) you are going to take an op or two.
see if they log more on.
We used to do that. And honestly, it gets tiresome. DMing, asking, getting turned down "we don't have enough people" - DMing would've have made a difference last night as you can see by the numbers. And I have yet to meet a clan besides Spirit of 2676 in NC1 that is willing to reciprocate such an action.
Also, then where is the element of surprise? Xeno claimed yesterday that there will always be a Paradox by Hack 3 to check numbers, otherwise they're not coming. I will never assume that every one of their members is close enough to a GR to be there immediately.
Here's the problem with waiting for hacks for a fight - The hacks go 1, maybe a break here to test the water and see if there are fighters, then 2, 3, and HackNet. They have to happen as fast as possible for us because usually, Hacks 1, 2, and 3 go fine and then the opposing clan only sends hackers in HackNet and we can never get 4. Yet they never send a ground force - So hacking and waiting for Fighters only gives our enemy the chance to get into HackNet and screw us anyway.
The OP gets hacked and we wait for a retaliation at the OP. Waiting before hack 4 ends will just screw us in HackNet and I'm not willing to stand around and let that happen. I 100% agreed on the Hack 1 and Wait idea before the HackNet hacks.
I'm in :-)
RP for the win :)
Jesterthegreat
03-08-05, 19:11
A) I have no DoY Alts
B) No way on Earth I'm going that far out of my way for my *enemy*.
We used to do that. And honestly, it gets tiresome. DMing, asking, getting turned down "we don't have enough people" - DMing would've have made a difference last night as you can see by the numbers. And I have yet to meet a clan besides Spirit of 2676 in NC1 that is willing to reciprocate such an action.
Also, then where is the element of surprise? Xeno claimed yesterday that there will always be a Paradox by Hack 3 to check numbers, otherwise they're not coming. I will never assume that every one of their members is close enough to a GR to be there immediately.
Here's the problem with waiting for hacks for a fight - The hacks go 1, maybe a break here to test the water and see if there are fighters, then 2, 3, and HackNet. They have to happen as fast as possible for us because usually, Hacks 1, 2, and 3 go fine and then the opposing clan only sends hackers in HackNet and we can never get 4. Yet they never send a ground force - So hacking and waiting for Fighters only gives our enemy the chance to get into HackNet and screw us anyway.
The OP gets hacked and we wait for a retaliation at the OP. Waiting before hack 4 ends will just screw us in HackNet and I'm not willing to stand around and let that happen. I 100% agreed on the Hack 1 and Wait idea before the HackNet hacks.
R2K used to play fair when i op warred. i fought them for god knows how long on Uranus and really didnt get on with them... but when it came down to it i found they are generally good guys.
an enemy who doesnt take it personally is the best kind of enemy.
we're seeing a couple of issue's here mainly the standard whineing about ninjaing and zerging... this will never change mainly cus as FN pointed out timezones play a major part in this. As for the 15minute first hack lockdown it's a good idea it would certainly slow down rampages across the map but how many teams would wait around 15 minutes especially if its a smaller force... perhaps a 5 minutes but this would need to be readdressed depending on population... you could I suppose tie the time limit to the size of the clan owning... ie the bigger the clan the shorter the lockdown cus logically their more likely to have more availiable defenders I'd have to sit down and work out some formula for it though.
The other issue is that we're still basicly operating on the same opwar system from nc1 excluding the HN aspect.. which was based around the fact that not all city factions we're allied or neutral and the same for anticity factions. Best example of this is probably PP and TG the one city faction that was on neutral terms with TG in NC1 which their not now.... faction relations are more city block style... a 3 sided war. Pro, Anti and CM. So as a temporary measure and im sure this could be implemented in less than a days work so It so be addressed as a top priority if people like it. Would be to lock op settings for GR to Freindly Only.... same with the Turret settings to give bonuses to freindly factions (though this may have some issues with those factions that are neutral would like to see neutral be under the freindly only umbrella) This makes the ops more city controled rather than faction controled and would probably do away with any infighting over ops. This could be temporary measure either until the population increases enough to go back to the old style system or people decide that city alliance settings are the way forward with ops and the idea of faction owned ops is phased out for them been controled either by pro, anti or cm and associated control settings.
lock op settings for GR to Freindly Only.... same with the Turret settings to give bonuses to freindly factions.
If I'm understanding that right then you are forgetting the spectre of allied pk. The only reason clans close ops tighter than GR Friendly is when they get allied runners going into the UG and killing during op wars.
You will see no solution to this problem in the short/medium term from KK, I am sure of that. The only solution must be a player initiative.
Jesterthegreat
04-08-05, 17:46
If I'm understanding that right then you are forgetting the spectre of allied pk. The only reason clans close ops tighter than GR Friendly is when they get allied runners going into the UG and killing during op wars.
You will see no solution to this problem in the short/medium term from KK, I am sure of that. The only solution must be a player initiative.
who are the ally killers these days?
er... faction wise as theres no naming allowed on the forums (or PM me)
Its not been a problem for a while, at least not for me, but I am thinking that if you were to take this suggestion and implement it then people would soon realise that they could do it and the defending clan could do nothing about it (unlike today where you can close the op quickly).
No im not forgetting the spectre on ally pking. But tbh this is gonna happen either way. Out of warzone ally pking is been dealt with *points at citycom mission discussion* as for UG gankers If your hanging around a UG that long you deserve to be ganked cus your coming in without SI. And a no point did i mention changing the UG settings... GR settings can be manipulated independantly so that only the clan has access to the UG while the other settings above are discussed are implemented. Tbh opwars are too focused around spamming the UG forcing other defenders to come through the main GR but without SI would change tactics and freshen things a little.
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