View Full Version : So whats going to be done about the aweful netcode?
It truely is disgraceful, yesterday i was trying to guide a new player i got to start the game from the aggys in p2, to the plaza ammo shop, to the crytons techtools for some implants and back to the aggys, a 2 minute job? More like 15-20 due to the fucking aweful netcode, so many times this would happen:
Me: [looks around and on local, player nowhere to be seen]
Me: I've lost you
Him: I'm right next to you
Me: Ah i see you
Me: [runs over to him]
Him: Where are you going thats back where we came from?
Him: [Disapears and reapears where i was previously standing]
Me: [Runs back over to him]
Him Wtf how did you run through that wall?
It wasnt even funny, it must have happed 3,4 maybe 5 time on that short trip, one time he was in the top of the up gravlift and i was waiting for him at the bottom, and he said "What are we waiting for?" i said "For you to come down the gravlift, use the other side to go down" then he said "Oh i know, i'm right next to you"
its almost impossible to fight on a reticle character anywhere but in a big open field because players keep moving through walls, floating in the air, getting stuck INSIDE walls, disapearing and reapearing elsewhere, and people ask why so many people play monks? I was a LONG time PE and Tank player (nc1 retail to a month or 2 ago) but recently ive started playing monks full time just because its just MORE FUN with the aweful situation the necode is currently in.
PLEASE tell me something is going to be done about this.
Heh, best is when Lightning starts fallin out the sky onto your health. "Huh, what?" "Wahhh?" "ooow" dies. While on the floor dead you look around see nothing, then an APU teleports in right next to you. Or when on top of the hill at CRP onmy rifle spy, I dint I can't stop people coming after me because as soon as they start climbing, they dissapear into the mountain, and often shoot at me from underground.... Of course, the same things happen to other people when I attack themtoo. And there is just as you say the ridiculousness of trying to follow people, or the crazy fact that when someone gets close to an edge on their computer, they contiunally fall up and down in on your screen. THis is why I think people saying Neocron has "great PvP" is bullshit. I don't enjoy fighting where who wins is more down to who's client is more or less fucked than the others. I'm not sure anything can be done though - NCs netcode IS that way.
Dargeshaad
28-07-05, 17:13
NCs netcode IS that way.
That's not saying it couldn't be improved ;)
It was never this bad before, the pvp IS great, but this netcode is taking away from it, it was never this bad in nc1, why is it this bad now?
another example is when someone clips through a wall their hair/gun stays stuck on the wall while the rest of them passes through
It does seem worse lately dunno why not a programmer myself.
Used to be only the lift bug from Nc1 but i have seen an increase in this bug across a distance. Runners in the sky, runners going through walls, runners gliding across a floor even when dead......i could go on but you all know :rolleyes:
Me waits for a Fix but me waits for me Grave also o_O
It was never this bad before, the pvp IS great, but this netcode is taking away from it, it was never this bad in nc1, why is it this bad now?
another example is when someone clips through a wall their hair/gun stays stuck on the wall while the rest of them passes through
Yeah, netcode is killing it. Practically dead people are getting away because they slide through an object I can't aim through (like a wall).
[BTW Arien, are you male or female? lol. I was gonne put "He's right you know" as my reply, but I don't know whether thats right :lol: ]
Yeah, that used to REALLY annoy me. Without a doubt NC's netcode can be vastly improved. Hell, if somebody can get a virtual world, objects, meshes, and textures to stream directly to your computer, then I'm sure that NC's netcode can be improved to the point of playing it like a single player game.
Also, here's some praise since the last few patches have introduced plenty of bug fixes. KK, grats, your finally getting the hang of things!
oh i'm a guy but i recently started playing my only girl char thats been a girl since NC1 (i dunno why i just like the idea of girl pismonks more than guy psimonks) fulltime so i named my forum account after that character (so people know who i am)
i dunno ryen i started getting a lot less fatals but since last patch i get em about 25% of the times i zone and sometimes just get em randomly midfight for no apparent reason
I would like to draw your attention to a thread I made in November, just after Neocron 2 launched:
'Instant Death - Netcode?' (http://neocron2.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=119263&page=1&pp=15)
I brought it up then, and all I can say is that in the last month or so its got a notch worse. My theory currently considers two things:
1) Item Tracking is on
2) There is a 10% increase in populations since June.
If you want to be pessimistic you might think that since we knew about it at the start of Neocron 2, nothing is going to change on this ever. If you want to be optimistic, you can take a comment Lupus made in a similar thread where he said they were aware of the problem.
I never played a pistol char before in NC1, but me and a mate both made pistol spies when we got NC2. I thought it might just be neofrag at fault, havent noticed this with cannons, but for pistols it was a real problem when we were playing.
I'm chasing my mate shooting him in the back while he appears to be running away. All this time my health is dropping. After the fight he says to him it seemed like he was chasing me. That made duelling in Neofrag at least seem like completely impossible with an uzi type pistol. I didnt bother with it again after that.
I don't really care about the lag right now. More importantly it seems that when the servers lag as they have been, login/sync bugs are vastly reduced.
I brought it up then, and all I can say is that in the last month or so its got a notch worse. My theory currently considers two things:
1) Item Tracking is on
2) There is a 10% increase in populations since June.
If this is the price we have to pay for item tracking then id rather see item tracking gone and the game actually be playable again.
If this is the price we have to pay for item tracking then id rather see item tracking gone and the game actually be playable again.
Nid said that Item Tracking didn't have anything to do with the lag.
Edit: I do agree with you though, if I could have item tracking OR servers that didn't lag like this I would have servers that didn't lag. But I don't think we should have to chose one or the other.
I don't seem to have much in the way of lag issues. I see myself in a timely fashion when watching one character from another (two PCs, separate DSL lines). I haven't seen myself go through any walls yet and I was running research missions in BD HQ for quite a while on Friday overnight, with my standing-still main at the intersection of the FSM hall and the bed hall.
One of my DSL lines is with Verizon. It has occasional issues with logging in a character (from client start-up, not flipping chars) - the whole permasync thing with no money/items. I expect this as it's around 20 hops from my local Verizon router to the gameserver (63.140.29.50). The other DSL line, a Speakeasy line, is all of 11 hops from the gameserver, and that's including my local router. It goes from Speakeasy to Level 3 in New York, then to Level 3 in Germany.
The worst problems I've experienced are the NPCs that fade in and out, even when I'm in zone. On more than one occasion while running BD missions, the FSM that I needed to deliver BPs to would "dissappear" and only reappear after I waited for a few seconds.
I haven't seen anyone walk through walls lately, in TH, MB, and NC.
I don't seem to have much in the way of lag issues. I see myself in a timely fashion when watching one character from another (two PCs, separate DSL lines). I haven't seen myself go through any walls yet and I was running research missions in BD HQ for quite a while on Friday overnight, with my standing-still main at the intersection of the FSM hall and the bed hall.
One of my DSL lines is with Verizon. It has occasional issues with logging in a character (from client start-up, not flipping chars) - the whole permasync thing with no money/items. I expect this as it's around 20 hops from my local Verizon router to the gameserver (63.140.29.50). The other DSL line, a Speakeasy line, is all of 11 hops from the gameserver, and that's including my local router. It goes from Speakeasy to Level 3 in New York, then to Level 3 in Germany.
The worst problems I've experienced are the NPCs that fade in and out, even when I'm in zone. On more than one occasion while running BD missions, the FSM that I needed to deliver BPs to would "dissappear" and only reappear after I waited for a few seconds.
I haven't seen anyone walk through walls lately, in TH, MB, and NC.
Well your the only one that I heard of that doesn't see people runing through walls...
Well your the only one that I heard of that doesn't see people runing through walls...Ph34R M'/ L3! :-)
I don't seem to have much in the way of lag issues. I see myself in a timely fashion when watching one character from another (two PCs, separate DSL lines). I haven't seen myself go through any walls yet and I was running research missions in BD HQ for quite a while on Friday overnight, with my standing-still main at the intersection of the FSM hall and the bed hall.
One of my DSL lines is with Verizon. It has occasional issues with logging in a character (from client start-up, not flipping chars) - the whole permasync thing with no money/items. I expect this as it's around 20 hops from my local Verizon router to the gameserver (63.140.29.50). The other DSL line, a Speakeasy line, is all of 11 hops from the gameserver, and that's including my local router. It goes from Speakeasy to Level 3 in New York, then to Level 3 in Germany.
The worst problems I've experienced are the NPCs that fade in and out, even when I'm in zone. On more than one occasion while running BD missions, the FSM that I needed to deliver BPs to would "dissappear" and only reappear after I waited for a few seconds.
I haven't seen anyone walk through walls lately, in TH, MB, and NC.
I get a 40 - 60 ping constant ...
How can you not see these problems, or don't you pvp much ?
Scanner Darkly
31-07-05, 04:01
Obviously the more people / zone the more chance of someone lagging, be it due to their connection or to server having to handle so many people.
Two people in a HQ hardly constitutes as a good test of "lag"...
I get a 40 - 60 ping constant ...I have a consistent 100 to 120ms ping.
How can you not see these problems, or don't you pvp much?I don't PvP at all, but I do transit zones with sizeable numbers of people (for NC) on a regular basis (TH, Mil Base, Aggies). The last time I saw major walking in the sky problems was in Plaza 1, back when people tried to use Plaza 1. I chalked that up to the gravlift problem.
In TH, I haven't seen anyone drift down from the ceiling, through walls, or through doors. Maybe it's only a problem when the server has to deal with gunfire?
No its because when you have to hit someone during PVP, who is totaly ripping you bits with his slasher, yet you can't hit them because they ran around the corner. Causing them to pass through the wall on your screen but on their screen their walking backwards still shooting you as they slip around the wall. Thats when you notice it, not fighting mobs, not running through plaza 1 or tradeskilling in your appy.
I have a consistent 100 to 120ms ping.I don't PvP at all, but I do transit zones with sizeable numbers of people (for NC) on a regular basis (TH, Mil Base, Aggies). The last time I saw major walking in the sky problems was in Plaza 1, back when people tried to use Plaza 1. I chalked that up to the gravlift problem.
In TH, I haven't seen anyone drift down from the ceiling, through walls, or through doors. Maybe it's only a problem when the server has to deal with gunfire?
Nah I think you are just the luckeyst person ever...
Btw this has nothing to do with connection or ping to the server, its going to be more about the way the server comunitcates with the players connected. At least that is what I beleave since I get a very good ping to most of europe due to living in the UK
Btw this has nothing to do with connection or ping to the server, its going to be more about the way the server comunitcates with the players connected. At least that is what I beleave since I get a very good ping to most of europe due to living in the UK
Yeah. My ping is 40-50 most the time, and I get it. Its because the rate at which the client gets an update on player positions from the server isn't high enough. Thats why players/droners teleport around, because the server tells you their position, but leaves out the go-between. So client-side, it looks like people are teleporting because thats how often the server updates the client with everyone's positions.
I agree, its not a lag issue to do with people's connections. Its the coding and response rate of the server. And it was definitely better in Neocron 1. I thought I remember reading that they turned it down in Neocron 2 to prevent other problems, but I can't remember where I read it.
[TgR]KILLER
31-07-05, 12:27
Had fun yesterday to we went rhino hunting for a few hours.. fun thing is you kill a mob i park my rhino above it so the gunner can loot.. and he can't reach it.. every time again. half the times i have to park my rhino so far from the mob that there could fit another rhino in between and then he can finally access it lol.
KILLER']Had fun yesterday to we went rhino hunting for a few hours.. fun thing is you kill a mob i park my rhino above it so the gunner can loot.. and he can't reach it.. every time again. half the times i have to park my rhino so far from the mob that there could fit another rhino in between and then he can finally access it lol.
Yeah I get that a lot. Or you kill a mob, and it slides somewhere else to where you killed it O_o
But has anyone had an FRE yet :wtf: I'm not joking I have yet to fatal since playing again for 2 whole days being the weekend 2 x 8 hours 16 hours total no FRE wierd...
Scanner Darkly
31-07-05, 14:03
I'm no internet genius, but is there any way that the netcode can be optimised to benefit from the greater bandwidth offered by broadband?
Also would it be possible to allow a similar tayloring of the connection speed / client and server update rate that is offered by CS / Quake and Unreal (of course these servers work differently and with smaller numbers of clients) - could a dev answer this one please?
We don't want to impose a broadband limit. Net congestion can crank your bandwidth right down at the best of times and the system has to be able to cope with that. As to your other point, the Neocron comms engine has to cope with all the issues of an FPS and much more, which is why the netcode isn't as bad as you would believe; it just has a lot more to do.
For example, syncing into a zone isn't just a case of moving you to the server hosting the zone and then showing you the other people against a background map you have installed on your client. We also have to download a bunch of dynamic objects (everything from NPCs all the way up to complete buildings) that are not permanent parts of the zone. Remember, GMs can do all kinds of things to the world while the game is running and the netcode has to be able to communicate that to you effectively.
N
W the netcode has to be able to communicate that to you effectively.
Which is onces ever few seconds, which isn't enough. If you want to solve the clipping problem, increase the server-to-client refresh rate, then at least people will only glide through the corner of a wall, rather than cruising through the entire thing.
There's no single server to client refresh rate. Different things are refreshed at different times and improving one will degrade another.
N
There's no single server to client refresh rate. Different things are refreshed at different times and improving one will degrade another.
N
Well that sucks. So what can we expect first, player shops or more efficient netcode? :rolleyes:
Well Nid I hear you about the netcode not being as bad as we think, and I also hear you that the item tracking is not what is causing this insane lag. So what is causing it?
Well Nid I hear you about the netcode not being as bad as we think, and I also hear you that the item tracking is not what is causing this insane lag. So what is causing it?
The way i see it, it is the netcode but Nid is saying that its pretty much the best that can be done without upping the overall information which has to be sent which could cut out customers with lower speed connection.
I may be barking up the completly wrong tree however.
There's no single server to client refresh rate. Different things are refreshed at different times and improving one will degrade another.
N
While I'm not expecting us to be playing counterstrike all of a sudden, I am wondering why it seems to many that the clipping and delays we are experiencing are:
1 - Worse than in Neocron 1
2 - Worse in the last 2 months
Cheers
I'm looking into it. There are many in the German community thinking the same thing.
N
I'm looking into it. There are many in the German community thinking the same thing.
N
If KK comes up with someone that monitors information being sent to and from the servers (in its encrypted form of course :rolleyes: ), and provides some sort of logging so that patterns in how the netcode causes clipping occurs, I would definately run it if it meant an improvement in the way the netcode operates.
Bugs Gunny
01-08-05, 12:16
Perfect example of the laggy netcode lately:
Before: Get 1-2 FA's stacked on your ass before the apu is even visible.
Now: Get 4-5 stacked before he shows up as being visible on screen.
Before: Go ins stealth with raptor shooting you, get hit one more burst.
Now: Get hit for 2-3 more bursts and die.
IF you have two comps, try logging into two different accounts and have one char run left and then right once on once comp and see what happens on the other. It didn't used to take that long for the char to move on the other screen. I've noticed a distinct difference while soloing the rhino too. Turn on one screen and the other one takes too long to react.
Before: Run up to door and right-click it just before I hit it. Door opens.
Now: Run up to door and right-click it just after I hit it. "You can't reach that"
I dont post much. Actually i dont post at all 8| But the increase in laggyness started when the mob spawn increased in allmost all sectors. Could this be causing it? More load on those sectors, which is causing other sectors to compensate?
I dont post much. Actually i dont post at all 8| But the increase in laggyness started when the mob spawn increased in allmost all sectors. Could this be causing it? More load on those sectors, which is causing other sectors to compensate?
If it was that i'd hope the servers would be able to handle that as there cant be that high a percentage of the game world zones active all at once with the populations at the moment.
Droning is so fun nowadays:
- I launch my drone and fly to an enemy apu
- I start hitting the apu a few times then fly the drone over a wall
- The drone gets hit repeatedly until it dies by HL's while the APU is on the other side of the wall.
The fubar'ed netcode is the main reason why I don't play as much as I did before. Best example was at CRP, I was attacking an enemy apu, and when he started attacking the drone I flew it as high and far as I could. When I had drone way above the Cycrow genrep with apu being a tiny dot barely visible on my screen he still kept hitting me.
This is a big issue. I don't want new content or nifty features until netcode and all the annoying little bugs we've gotten used to is improved.
BloodLetting
02-08-05, 17:01
I had posted this a while ago I believe it was called "do Chars lag or what?"
I noticed it as soon as I returned from my 8 month holiday :lol:
Its awful trying to run as a group now. :mad:
Any news on this then Niddy?
Nothing definite yet. I know for a fact that item tracking hasn't been on for much of the last two months so we can safely discount that. I may know more tomorrow and will post whatever I find out. This hasn't been forgotten though.
N
Hang on, so Item Tracking isnt actualy a garenteed service yet?
Before: Run up to door and right-click it just before I hit it. Door opens.
Now: Run up to door and right-click it just after I hit it. "You can't reach that"
I get this all the time :( Mighty frustrating.
Bugs, I've done the two PC test on my 3mb down/512kb up cable connection.
- With both connected, I run the first character across a room up to the second on the first character's screen. To him, he's standing next to the second character.
- About 5-10 seconds later, I see the first character approaching the second character on the second character's screen. 5 to 10 seconds is long enough for an APU or a Raptor to kill 3 people.
Very close to quitting until you guys can sort it out. If you can't then that could be the end for me. Op wars are descending to clairvoyancy tests where you are always 5 seconds behind everything that is happening. I am dying all the time on all characters, and while I'm not great, I am better than that. You shoot your weapon, turn around, and then you are instantly dead on the ground.
Not to mention that since Sunday evening all the good old zero soulight logins, citycom lag, new emails (x16 at once), fatals are up by a ton.
The majority of problems we are experiencing are new to Neocron 2, these are not original problems. I'm bitterly disappointed with the way things are going. I've been playing for nearly 3 years straight and the game stability is worse.
The game for me is nearing unplayable, its an insult to players who give everything at these fights to be let down by the game.
Nidhogg, you have been in op wars with me in the past, I ask you to come and watch some op wars on terra, and if possible bring other KK to see the state of things.
Very close to quitting until you guys can sort it out. If you can't then that could be the end for me. Op wars are descending to clairvoyancy tests where you are always 5 seconds behind everything that is happening. I am dying all the time on all characters, and while I'm not great, I am better than that. You shoot your weapon, turn around, and then you are instantly dead on the ground.
Not to mention that since Sunday evening all the good old zero soulight logins, citycom lag, new emails (x16 at once), fatals are up by a ton.
The majority of problems we are experiencing are new to Neocron 2, these are not original problems. I'm bitterly disappointed with the way things are going. I've been playing for nearly 3 years straight and the game stability is worse.
The game for me is nearing unplayable, its an insult to players who give everything at these fights to be let down by the game.
Nidhogg, you have been in op wars with me in the past, I ask you to come and watch some op wars on terra, and if possible bring other KK to see the state of things.
Agree 100%!
I find the gameplay almost impossible of late and if its got anything to do with item tracking them dump it!
I'd rather lose some items now and then than face the futile attempt to PvP a ghost!
Asurmen Spec Op
04-08-05, 00:46
Agree 100%!
I find the gameplay almost impossible of late and if its got anything to do with item tracking them dump it!
I'd rather lose some items now and then than face the futile attempt to PvP a ghost!
its already been said its NOT item tracking
And your saying youd rather not have item tracking now..
but if you lost a full appartment BP library a DS, SA, 5 slot CS, 5 slot HL etc etc etc in a database crash which wiped appartments like what happened on Uranus a fair few times in NC1 and on Terra iirc in the first 3 months, youd be eating your words.
Ok, I've calmed down a bit now. Meant what I said though.
I'd like to clarify this 'delay' a little. It was worse than Neocron 1 from day one. I believe this is because of a client update rate change and other major changes like hardware.
Now while it was annoying, it was bearable, because you could just about recover from being insta-hit by loads of damage you don't see. However, since 4 weeks ago (the run of patches) there has been a further shift, with even worse delays. Now we know that at that point they made a hidden change to runcasting (supposedly fixing a bug, but in effect making it impossible). I am thinking whether this code change (and its still not really fixed because you 'hiccup' spells instead) or other stealth tweaks were responsible.
Either that or you are looking at a decrease in response from your server clustering. But I am not an expert on these things, that is what we pay KK to do. I for one would rather roll back to that prior state than have things as they are now. Is it possible you can try rolling back your QA server patch by patch and testing response times? Or is your server cluster not really emulating what we see on the live setup?
Or is your server cluster not really emulating what we see on the live setup?
I was thinking that for quite some time, but when they said that they didn't see that implants didn't pop when they tested the patch that kinda made up my mind.
Selendor Describes exactly what I am experiencing as well. Me too, with 3 yrs nonstop presence, I demand these must be solved. For the first time I say that Im thinking of leaving neocron for a game i still wait to be released. If it was released I would have gone already. Im having so many problems that it's really pointless to describe, or send support tickets. My only hope is that these are being looked out.
And btw, this is no solution how psi runcasting works. We are all looking like spastics
[PiN]Fluffy
04-08-05, 06:12
Yup SOmething is wrong with that Delay BS or w/e. Im completely comp stupid. But i do know i got killed today on my spy by an APU who i didnt see till i was on the ground and he was hacking my belt...
PLZ KK. Do something ANYTHING! lol
take it for granted that there following you, they usualy are :rolleyes:
there always seem to have been problems with this, although it does seem a bit sevier
Bugs Gunny
04-08-05, 11:49
Yeah it's unplayable for people fighting apus and people playing a melee tank.
The apus come out of nowhere right as you die from either stacks or HL, and melee tanks.... well they're fucked to say the least.
Its hard to hit the monks, hell I mean its hard to hit anyone atm within built up areas such as plaza 2. But because my character is lagging on there screens, the APU's are getting free hits on me. I was chasing some tank from the MB bunker, it looked like he just stopped I kept shooting him, he then started running again and warped forward to where the ASG is miles from me. So yeah this is a piss take fix it plz ..
It's under investigation. Server load hasn't increased sufficiently to cause these issues but we're looking at all the possibilities. I'll update you when I have more news.
N
i know you said you update us but could we have an update on this issue soon? or do you know when we will have an answer?
Even if you can just clarify whats not causing the issues (that you guys no about) its something.
another example:
i raided CRP about a week ago (been on holiday so ive not had a chance to post this up yet) and im standing inside at *, i spot an enemy apu outside at x:
............x.............
..........|...|..........
..........|...|..........
..........|...|..........
______|...|_______
|...........*.............|
|..........................|
|..........................|
|________________|
i run to the right to put a heal on as i'd just finished with the last apu, this is where the characters appeared on my screen:
............|.............
..........|\/.|..........
..........| x |..........
..........|...|..........
______|...|_______
|...............--->*...|
|..........................|
|..........................|
|________________|
the apu hit me with 7-8 HLs before i even saw him come round the corner on my screen, this happened 2 times within 10 minutes (though first time i was still on ok hp and it turned out to be a friend so after i shot him up a bit we stopped fighting and second time i just sat out the damage then dropped the apu before he saw it coming so its netcode:0 anticity:0 me:1)
Yup, happens to everyone, thats why this thread was made :rolleyes:
I have tested with my buddy on a LAN with are comps right beside eachother. When some1 runs forward or moves , on other peoples screen there movement is delayed ( by alot ) thats why people go around corners and get abunch of hits on you before you even see there character. Also i have noticed people falling thru mountains while pvping so you cant target them , which also sucks. :mad:
PvP is a joke at the moment, fighting around the city is a joke, fighting around ops the same. People play this game for PvP and at them moment it is absurd what we are having to put up with. Sort it out soon or kiss goodbye to a lot of people.
Im sure u are working on some new useless pos feature or weapon that u have not tested, that will be wiped, deleted, put back in, deleted, nerfed etc or some campaign which is pointless conisidering anyone trying the game out will piss themselves at its current state. Thats if they can login of course :mad:
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