View Full Version : So whats going to be done about stealth?
Stealth is supposed to give a drugflash no? Then why is it possible for every newb PE that cant cut it in pvp to chain it non stop for 5 minutes with a heal on?
I see no problem in stealth being a 1 use infiltration device, and i see no problem in spys using it, as they are ALWAYS weak enough to one resist (usually poison which is the easiest to take advantage of) but every PE that has a little poison specced can just slap on a heal and happily sit right in front of you and outheal anything on them. Barrels and area hit weapons dont work because they can move away from the area too fast and poison is worthless because with their tl10 heal on them they can easily just get to a zoneline and nullify all effects of the poison, its disgraceful that they can just sit there in full view of me or anyone else (DB, poison bubbles, heal bubbles) and not be hit.
I accept that stealth is a part of the game and its here to stay but why let it be exploited so easily? At least make it give a drugflash after starting a second stealth within 10-15 seconds of the first and make stealth nullify any heals on the person at the time of stealth.
No, no and no.
If you cast a heal on yourself before stealthing, you are removing the invisibility part which you use to get away with, and just decrease the chance you will take damage in stealth.
A PEs stealth is all of 8 secs I think, thats nothing in comparison to the bullshit spies can pull off.
Bugs Gunny
28-07-05, 16:57
I die on my pe when i heal at low health and stealth, because they track me and shoot me when i come out of it, and as for poison... it works... Hightech spies have hardly any poison specced and stacked you are also easy to track in stealth.
No, no and no.
If you cast a heal on yourself before stealthing, you are removing the invisibility part which you use to get away with, and just decrease the chance you will take damage in stealth.
A PEs stealth is all of 8 secs I think, thats nothing in comparison to the bullshit spies can pull off.
Agreed. A APU or Tank can so easily kill a stealther if they get poison on them so they can see em in stealth and then use a AOE spell like multi energy bolt (or what ever that blue thing is called) and a tank can use any AOE cannon to kill the PE... I don't see it as that bad unless he is just not even fighting and sealthing constantly.
Morganth: EXACTLY, if i can SEE it, why the hell can't i SHOOT it
Bugs: A PE heal can heal a huge chunk of a PEs stealthbar in 1 stealth and you just repeated what i said already about spys
but i would expect PEs to defend their get out of jail free card
Agreed. A APU or Tank can so easily kill a stealther if they get poison on them so they can see em in stealth and then use a AOE spell like multi energy bolt (or what ever that blue thing is called) and a tank can use any AOE cannon to kill the PE... I don't see it as that bad unless he is just not even fighting and sealthing constantly.
please, i dont have room on my quickbelt to keep that up, i have 2-3 times as many spells as i do quickbelt slots, in the time it takes for me to stop and swich spells (and i do it fast) the stealther is long gone
oh and a PE stealth will just about outheal any AoE affects that can be put on him when you think about how many are gonna hit/miss due to how inaccuate tank AoE is and how buggy monk AoE is
Dribble Joy
28-07-05, 17:04
The problem with stealth doesn't have anything with the length it lasts, the reqs or and after effects.
It is about the initial effects that stealth provides, Ie. the ability for the user, at the touch of a button, to choose to disengage from the fight entirely without risk, to simply dissapear.
I couldn't care less how long it lasted, the stats or whether it causes flash afterwards.
I'm sure most of the forum frequenters know of my 'fix' for stealth.
what is it dribble, i dont read these forums often, chasing 2 little stealthwhoring, netcode abusing allied pker PEs who were pitifully trying to gank me all around neocron this morning has driven me to come here looking for answers
oh and poison isnt an effective solution for killing stealther PEs if anyone wants to suggest that as there is ALWAYS a zoneline near enough for them to get over and their heal keeps them alive easily untill then
Bugs Gunny
28-07-05, 17:07
When stealth was removed from pe's they became almost extinct, you know why? Because spies do it better and they can tradeskill too.
Downside to a spy? Takes a longass time to cap.
Lifewaster
28-07-05, 17:08
Poison is good because its a slightly visible track for 30 seconds , while Fire and heal bubbles dissappear too fast to track a stealther , and DB they will counter with drugs. However the speed of a stealthed PE tends to be too fast for many ppl to successfully track , not to mention that they can probably kill you in 1v1 if you do manage to find them by yourself :p
However PEs do have to drug up to hell to be good , but I agree they do seem super tough when they are in this form.
I dont think they should lose it as it adds fun to game ,but it probably needs tweaking to make them a bit less unkillable.
PEs have tank defence, spy offence, a better heal than BOTH of these classes AND IM NOT EVEN FACTORING IN DAMAGE BOOST YET, their the easiest chars to cap, they can use any combat skill well, they run faster than spys or tanks
WHY do THAT class need stealth?
Funny. My spy dies an awful lot when trying to stealth away. Admittedly thats rather often due to stealth bugs, but nevermind. Maybe if stealth was less buggy, and you werent at the disadavange coming out of stealth (they have their weapons drawn, you have to draw yours) then it would be overpowered. As it is, I can press ifre with my stealth tool drawn and still not stealth. I can drop dead while "stealthed" etc. Moreover, because of this natue of the game, the sniper class simply can't work without stealth. They can't hide, they cant drop people in less than 3 shots, and people at long range teleport consantly. I will agree that decent setup PEs with stealth are nigh on impossible to kill.
Ok if a PE has spy offence then he is
A: using all dex imps and still taking 1 drug to use the best high tech weapons.
B: Taking 2 drugs and not losing that much defence.
C: Taking 3 drugs, losing no defence and having spy offence.
I was specificly talking about PEs, im sure that is implied in my post.
And monks are the buggiest class in the game, but we don't use that as an excuse to justify some monk varients being overpowered do we? We just cope with it.
This whole debate has been done before, and guess what the result was? It was that stealth needed removing from PEs, and it was, and for a time it was good, now KK have given PEs stealth 1 back with no reqs? WHY? Make it a 3-5 second stealth so it can be justified as a 'newb stealth', take it away from PEs, apply one of the countless other great fixes that has been suggested, JUST DO SOMETHING.
Lifewaster
28-07-05, 17:22
And btw, drugflash isnt the answer, cos currently PEs just pk untill they reach druglimit, then go off and kill-self get ressed , whatever etc.
Maybe as a solution , they could create a stealth glove , similar to psi glove , then give stealth tools a req to have glove equipped , same as works with spells, etc.
This would mean a stealthing PE or spy would not have such fast access to his ppu spells anymore and would probably even things up considerable.
Ok if a PE has spy offence then he is
A: using all dex imps and still taking 1 drug to use the best high tech weapons.
B: Taking 2 drugs and not losing that much defence.
C: Taking 3 drugs, losing no defence and having spy offence.
Thats about right, i dont see how that supports the argument that PEs deserve stealth though.
And btw, drugflash isnt the answer, cos currently PEs just pk untill they reach druglimit, then go off and kill-self get ressed , whatever etc.
Maybe as a solution , they could create a stealth glove , similar to psi glove , then give stealth tools a req to have glove equipped , same as works with spells, etc.
This would mean a stealthing PE or spy would not have such fast access to his ppu spells anymore and would probably even things up considerable.
I love that idea, but it is a bit of a sledgehammer, i think the best idea yet was from jester saying that after the first restealth after the initial stealth you take say 3% SI, stackable, and stealthtools are given a NO SI requirement.
However PEs do have to drug up to hell to be good , but I agree they do seem super tough when they are in this form.
I played a no drug PE (lowtech rifle) and a 1 drug PE (hightech pistol), and it was so damn easy to play. You don't need 8 drugs on a PE, only if you lack the skills.
Scanner Darkly
28-07-05, 17:27
I still think there should be a recharge time between stealth uses (say 5-10 secs), which just might stop constant stealth whoring...
I say fix the netcode first and see how much less overpowerd stealth is. Then if it still needs nerfing go from there. As it is if i'm PKing in plaza and I see somone by medi I can shoot em a few times, they see whats going on and take off for a safe zone, I shoot em when i'm chaceing (sp?) him and it's like "wtf he isn't taking any damage" and we just get on the ramp going to CA HQ and his body syncs in to the HQ... Anyone can get away in the city/DoY of they want, not just PEs.
Oh and a 3 drug PE can play for 45 mins to an hour (assuming their using 2 10 min drugs and a 5 min) without drugflash untill they have to dedicate 15 seconds to a relog to get rid of it.
Dargeshaad
28-07-05, 17:29
I always love when pes/spies stealth when I'm on my apu hyb, I usually have a DB on them so they're pretty easy to spot out and take them out with Multilightning bolt....I've lost count on how many I've killed with that. When I'm on my other chars people usually get away from me though when they stealth, since the only counter I have is DB on my PE.
Bottum line I'm not really sure what way it should go, but a tweak wouldn't be out of the way with some of the proposed ideas the community have had previously
I still think there should be a recharge time between stealth uses (say 5-10 secs), which just might stop constant stealth whoring...
Yeah that what i think too, maybe 30 sec would be better.
I say fix the netcode first and see how much less overpowerd stealth is. Then if it still needs nerfing go from there. As it is if i'm PKing in plaza and I see somone by medi I can shoot em a few times, they see whats going on and take off for a safe zone, I shoot em when i'm chaceing (sp?) him and it's like "wtf he isn't taking any damage" and we just get on the ramp going to CA HQ and his body syncs in to the HQ... Anyone can get away in the city/DoY of they want, not just PEs.
How is changing the netcode going to fix stealth?
I still think there should be a recharge time between stealth uses (say 5-10 secs), which just might stop constant stealth whoring...
I wouldn't mind that at all. Even if it was only that 5-10 seconds it would be a big improvment to how it is now with some of the pussys I have seen on PEs.
Edit:If they fix the netcode it will be posible to track stealthers and kill them when they come out of stealth. As it is now I can't see that happening with anything but a Monk beacuse they don't need LoS.
4-5 seconds is too short, its usually around 1-3 seconds to locate the new location of the PE depending on how dense the scenery is in your location and maybe 1-2 seconds to lock a reticle. Theres no chance of doing any significant damage to the PE before he restealths unless your a monk, which is pretty obviously unfair to reticle classes
edit: damn you edited to 5-10 before i posted this, im leaving my post as it is though
and it wont make it any easier, the clipping issues wernt that the person was hard to see, it was that they were hard to hit, stealthers are already impossible to hit so it wouldnt affect them
I had no problem with stealthers before they fucked up the netcode. If I can see the guy when he comes out of stealth and he doesn't warp through walls then he is an easy kill.
No its easy to track stealthers as it is do to the heal bubbles/poison ticks/damageboost, even without those its not too hard to follow them in first person, the problem is that they just sit there happily gaining health while nobody can damage them, please tell me how a PE whos visible for a the whole 2 seconds at good hp from his tl10 heal in stealthmode is an easy kill.
Stealth is supposed to give a drugflash no?Repeated use was supposed to. I managed to get a twinge of drug flash by repeatedley using a Stealth II for around 10 minutes, but that was way back in NC1.
Stealth is not always used for PvP. I use Obliterator for PvM to traverse areas where there are large numbers of things I don't want to engage. Adding SI, insta drug flash, and/or removal of heal effects would be irritating for me, to say the least.
They gain about 130 HP from a whole TL 10 heal. If you get about 3-4 shots off before they fire back then you already did 120 damage...
Morganth: EXACTLY, if i can SEE it, why the hell can't i SHOOT it
Tanks have AoE, Monks have AoE, Spies can counter-stealth, other PEs can DB. Now you can see it and/or shoot it.
You don't need 8 drugs on a PE, only if you lack the skills.
I've played every type of PE possible, and none of them are any harder or easier to play than the other. Taking drugs justs adds a few complications to the matter, but it doesn't make me any worse of a player. If I choose to use a drug setup that gives me a tanks CON setup, I can't see how that makes me any less skilled than any other PE. By your thinking, anyone who relies on PPU buffs in an OP war lacks skills.
Please don't pick on people who have unique setups, just because you lack the skills to understand the concept that maybe people want to be different.
Tanks have AoE, Monks have AoE, Spies can counter-stealth, other PEs can DB. Now you can see it and/or shoot it.
please read the rest of the thread
please read the rest of the thread
We have and I don't see what your still whining about...
please read the rest of the threadYou started a thread wanting to get rid of PE stealth because you can't seem to kill them using AoE...
Are they able to kill you while Stealthed? Are they able to accomplish any objectives other than annoy the piss out of you?
Sure seems like you're just upset because they're pushing your buttons. Ignore them, maybe? If you really wanted to kill them, you'd find a way...
You started a thread wanting to get rid of PE stealth because you can't seem to kill them using AoE...
Are they able to kill you while Stealthed? Are they able to accomplish any objectives other than annoy the piss out of you?
Sure seems like you're just upset because they're pushing your buttons. Ignore them, maybe? If you really wanted to kill them, you'd find a way...
Well said, looks like I have some buttons to push when I get home then, just to get my point accross :lol:
By your thinking, anyone who relies on PPU buffs in an OP war lacks skills.
They do!!! :p
The real skills were when there was no ppu (at the point freezer was nerfed at least anyway ;p) :D
I've played every type of PE possible, and none of them are any harder or easier to play than the other. Taking drugs justs adds a few complications to the matter, but it doesn't make me any worse of a player. If I choose to use a drug setup that gives me a tanks CON setup, I can't see how that makes me any less skilled than any other PE. By your thinking, anyone who relies on PPU buffs in an OP war lacks skills.
Please don't pick on people who have unique setups, just because you lack the skills to understand the concept that maybe people want to be different.
Sorry but he said that a PE had to take much drugs to be good a pvp, and that's not right. So if he need to take a lot of drugs, the other PE does not.
Are they able to kill you while Stealthed? Are they able to accomplish any objectives other than annoy the piss out of you?
Hmmm.... lemme think... stealth + heal = easy heal.
Hmm yeah that's an advantage for stealth whore PE's.
Hmmm.... lemme think... stealth + heal = easy heal.
Hmm yeah that's an advantage for stealth whore PE's.
And I am a PE (most of the time) and I think it's a good idea to have a 10 sec delay on stealth after you come out. I don't think it's right that a PE can just stand there and be the biggest pussy the world has ever seen. If he is a stealth whore he can't kill me though so it doesn't matter.
You started a thread wanting to get rid of PE stealth because you can't seem to kill them using AoE...
Are they able to kill you while Stealthed? Are they able to accomplish any objectives other than annoy the piss out of you?
Sure seems like you're just upset because they're pushing your buttons. Ignore them, maybe? If you really wanted to kill them, you'd find a way...
Have you tried killing them with AoE?
Monk AoE is either Stationary over a small area (barrels) and useless because of the buggy netcode (their not in the same place on their screen as they are on your screen, so the netcode fix WOULD help a LITTLE) and are very easy to evade, or Buggy as fuck direct hit area (multi bolts) which isnt viable in a group fight as it hits friends as well as enemys (if it even hits at all, 1 in 3 shots will just randomly seem to shoot off in a random direction and not hit what you aimed it at) and its hard enough to aim at a character in stealth anyway as they move so fast and aiming those spells is damn tricky.
Tank AoE is a joke vs a stealther also, unless you just aim at the ground and follow them which will slaughter yourself so when they come out of stealth they can shoot you 2x to finish you then you have to stand still crouched for like 3-4 seconds to get a decent aim, by which time they are long gone.
Poison stacks are useless because 99% of the time there is a nice conveniant zoneline to nullify the effects.
All of these methods arn't viable or reliable ways of killing a stealther and any damage dealt out is likely to be outhealed if they have a heal on
And I am a PE (most of the time) and I think it's a good idea to have a 10 sec delay on stealth after you come out. I don't think it's right that a PE can just stand there and be the biggest pussy the world has ever seen. If he is a stealth whore he can't kill me though so it doesn't matter.
what it does mean though is they can keep coming back again and again to try and kill you, failing every time but always gettign a get out of jail free card and another chance, this morning i faught 2 stealwhoring PEs who would i would get to low hp, they would stealth off, come back, get to low hp, stealth off etc, it continued untill i decided i had better things to do and left
bleh...
someone gimme good slasher, i'm lomming to pistols
offering arti rifles in exchange
ty
what it does mean though is they can keep coming back again and again to try and kill you, failing every time but always gettign a get out of jail free card and another chance, this morning i faught 2 stealwhoring PEs who would i would get to low hp, they would stealth off, come back, get to low hp, stealth off etc, it continued untill i decided i had better things to do and left
That is what I mean. They don't have any chance of killing you beacuse if they get below half HP they just stealth off.
I manage to land a load of plasma hits on stealthers using my HC PE, I'm pretty sure they do a reasonable amount of damage (because there is an AOE effect on plasma cannons). I used to play in 3rd person, but I'm always 1st person now because you can see stealthers about 10x better - and I'm under the impression more shots land with standard weapons in general.
but a good pvper can kill me fair and square, just like i'll kill a bad monk, tank or spy fair and square everytime, the problem is that this is a class that allows bad pvpers to get away free everytime, when they should have died, there should be no item that automatically allows bad pvpers to compete with good pvpers, if they lose they should die, accept their gr fee, get their pokes and wait off their SI like the rest of us, not push a button and come back 3 seconds later to repeat the experiance
but a good pvper can kill me fair and square, just like i'll kill a bad monk, tank or spy fair and square everytime, the problem is that this is a class that allows bad pvpers to get away free everytime, when they should have died, there should be no item that automatically allows bad pvpers to compete with good pvpers, if they lose they should die, accept their gr fee, get their pokes and wait off their SI like the rest of us, not push a button and come back 3 seconds later to repeat the experiance
Same as spies then. But there has definately been an increase in PEs since the n00b stealth came about. Opposite thing happened when steath was made Spy only back in NC1, most PEs vanished from the public eye.
i still played a PE when they didnt have stealth (well after i returned to the game in nc1, it was taken out while i wasnt playing) and i did fine
i still played a PE when they didnt have stealth (well after i returned to the game in nc1, it was taken out while i wasnt playing) and i did fine
Same here. In fact, I was a better PE without stealth, and now I only use it to travel when my drugs aren't on.
Asurmen Spec Op
29-07-05, 01:07
I always love when pes/spies stealth when I'm on my apu hyb, I usually have a DB on them so they're pretty easy to spot out and take them out with Multilightning bolt....I've lost count on how many I've killed with that. When I'm on my other chars people usually get away from me though when they stealth, since the only counter I have is DB on my PE.
Bottum line I'm not really sure what way it should go, but a tweak wouldn't be out of the way with some of the proposed ideas the community have had previously
<3 antiboost drugs
and acually, PE population didnt go down in NC1s stealth nerf. I had tens of times more fun without it, I think the game on a whole would be better without stealth.
I don't get it!
"Stealth+Hela=Easy Heal => Stealt whore"
Monks: SD+HHeal=Super Heal => SD Whore??
Spies: Loong Stealth+heal=loong gone => aren't they Stealth Whores too?
If PE's are so godly whay haven't 90% of the monkers switched to PE's?
(or are they on their way)
BTW Spies isn't a true combat class, are they? They're more of a tradskilling class, right?
/one who doesn't get it
i think spy stealth is abused worse because there are a lot less combat spies then combat pe's, at least as far as pvp. so most spies will just stealth away at the first sign of anyone without an LE. spies dont need stealth anymore then a pe does, its useful though, and i like it for escaping from retardedly outnumbered fights especially when im always get para/db first thing 10vs 1 ;)
Wow a PE bashing thread omfg...
Wow a PE bashing thread omfg...
people are just angry because PEs can get away when they 'fight' him with 12 vs 1 and 6 of them being ppus.
but i agree its not right stealth whatsoever, spies shouldnt have it either, not in its current form. but then we should have PPU's in their current form either but we do.
Anyway about PE stealth, it has made me begin to rely on it too much and that has caused me to lose alot of my skill. In the past I never used it even when PE's had access to it because I was lowtech, I did a damn good job at killing the other hightech PE's abusing it.
I still like having stealth, it lets me do opwars and that is the main advantage, in the past without stealth I would be a very much a dead PE as soon as any APU with PPU support targeted me. You might think so would anyone else if the same happed to them at an opwar but thats not the case because the PE is never looked after at an opwar. If they made stealth only work in warzones I'd be in full agreement, spys are a bit different. What would be the point in playing a SPY without stealth ?
spies can be just as strong as a PE .. i actually prefer playing my spy lately because i dont have to pull off pa to buff. i play my spy the same as i play my pe and my spy only has the noob stealth tool.
I don't get it!
"Stealth+Hela=Easy Heal => Stealt whore"
Monks: SD+HHeal=Super Heal => SD Whore??
Spies: Loong Stealth+heal=loong gone => aren't they Stealth Whores too?
If PE's are so godly whay haven't 90% of the monkers switched to PE's?
(or are they on their way)
BTW Spies isn't a true combat class, are they? They're more of a tradskilling class, right?
/one who doesn't get it
1) Take a PE on a OP fight and tell me if you kill so much people as with a monk. Got it ? PE = good vs nonPPUted targets ( O_o )
There is nothing against the PE himself, just against stealth...
Rofl spy is only a tradeskill class you'r right kthxbyelol (I give up, too stupid)
Original monk
29-07-05, 12:41
<3 antiboost drugs
and acually, PE population didnt go down in NC1s stealth nerf. I had tens of times more fun without it, I think the game on a whole would be better without stealth.
i aint gonna talk about PE stealth again, i whined a year or longer to get rid of it, it got removed ... and now its back so :)
tough i dont have problems with it now, in NC1 the stealthwhoring was .. extreme ... now its ok imo ... thing that is extreme atm is the abuse of parashock ... get rid of that spell lol (while in NC1 i discussed endlessly to keep the spell O.O, now i will discuss endlessly to remove it)
but thing i wanted to say asurmen is that in NC1 the PE population was extreme ... correct me ... the stealthwhore population was extreme, heck the entire population on a server was 2 to 3 times what we have now lol
anyway ... as soon as stealth got removed you didnt see any PE's for a while ... except the same people that always played em lilT as a fast and easy example :) ... not alot tough ... most hopped over to another random class ...
with other words: PE population in NC1 collapsed when stealth got removed ... certainly in the beginning
again, i wouldnt remove stealth for PE's here in NC2, i vote to keep it in for PE's and spy's :)
Asurmen Spec Op
29-07-05, 12:43
i aint gonna talk about PE stealth again, i whined a year or longer to get rid of it, it got removed ... and now its back so :)
tough i dont have problems with it now, in NC1 the stealthwhoring was .. extreme ... now its ok imo ... thing that is extreme atm is the abuse of parashock ... get rid of that spell lol (while in NC1 i discussed endlessly to keep the spell O.O, now i will discuss endlessly to remove it)
but thing i wanted to say asurmen is that in NC1 the PE population was extreme ... correct me ... the stealthwhore population was extreme, heck the entire population on a server was 2 to 3 times what we have now lol
anyway ... as soon as stealth got removed you didnt see any PE's for a while ... except the same people that always played em lilT as a fast and easy example :) ... not alot tough ... most hopped over to another random class ...
with other words: PE population in NC1 collapsed when stealth got removed ... certainly in the beginning
again, i wouldnt remove stealth for PE's here in NC2, i vote to keep it in for PE's and spy's :)
I wont deny it, and the sad part is, I used stealth in combat once in NC1, then I lommed to lowtech, it was removed a week later. I wouldnt really miss it if it was gone.
And I wont correct you on the stealthwhoring population, most people who stealth do it at to low of health and die anyway
I only use the stealth to bypass enemies when I dont want a fight (say after I've put my vhc back at ASG at battledome) or when I'm fighting a stealther.
I've had a few allies shoot at me in NC before and generally I just make my way to a faction hq (to avoid SL loss) without stealth, it's not something I keep with me in my quickbelt 100% of the time.
I can see where stealth can be abused in this way, but I dont see it as a problem with PEs, they cant completely cripple you in damage (unless they're better than you) if they are using stealth to avoid your damage. You get 10 seconds to find a better position and heal before they might attempt another strike. If they stealth a lot, you cant kill them, they cant kill you on that aspect it seems balanced.
If they only use it in the worst circumstances (down to 10% health etc), then you do actually stand a good chance in killing them.
I can see stealthers pretty well with my HC PE in 1st person, and up close a lot of my plasma shots land on them even if they do less damage. If the stealther was at 10% health at this point, killing them wouldnt be a problem. If they wacked a heal on at an appropriate time, you should have got your shots in then while they were healing.
no class should have a pvp switch to turn non concentual pvp on and off at will, this is neocron not everquest and as far as im concerned every stealthwhoring PE is a carebear that cant cut it in real pvp
no class should have a pvp switch to turn non concentual pvp on and off at will, this is neocron not everquest and as far as im concerned every stealthwhoring PE is a carebear that cant cut it in real pvp
They can't hit you when they are stealthed, so I don't see why its a problem? When they stealth, do what you can to either protect/heal yourself, or grab some AoE to kill them with. Otherwise, just leave the area or find an alternate route to wherever you are heading.
read the rest of the thread please ive explained all the things youve posted there at least 2 times
They can't hit you when they are stealthed, so I don't see why its a problem? When they stealth, do what you can to either protect/heal yourself, or grab some AoE to kill them with. Otherwise, just leave the area or find an alternate route to wherever you are heading.
Ok, you seems not to understand much : I will explain that ITS TOO EASY to get off from a fight when using stealth.
no class should have a pvp switch to turn non concentual pvp on and off at will, this is neocron not everquest and as far as im concerned every stealthwhoring PE is a carebear that cant cut it in real pvp
That could be said about any class people might view to have an advantage over others - in fact I think it already has/generally is. I agree that 'stealthwhoring' is pretty lame, if they are just shooting you to annoy you (I mean neither of you can win, right?) but it doesnt mean it has to be removed or toned down because not every PE who has stealth plays in this way.
Personally I find para much more frustrating than a PE who wants to use stealth. Para costs loads of money in anti drugs and it's something you cant do much about. Avoiding stealthers isnt exactly impossible.
im for removing para also
..
If you lose a PE that stealths in the wholesome 10secs they have to get away, thats not their fault. 10 secs is next to nothing in terms of escape, and if they have a heal on you can easily follow them. Hope you can understand that.
EDIT:
im for removing para also
Who isn't though? lol
Original monk
29-07-05, 16:14
Personally I find para much more frustrating than a PE who wants to use stealth. Para costs loads of money in anti drugs and it's something you cant do much about. Avoiding stealthers isnt exactly impossible.
hey stay ontopic !
lol yust kidding, youre right, if sumthing needs to be adressed first its getting all the things that "stun" you out of game :)
tough im not afraid to say that stealth saved my life numerous times (when parad lol .. must add i never used antishockdrugs in my life ... heck im starting to use the psidrug on my spy and my fresh PE since NC2, for the rest im clean ... ingame)
morganth from now on i'm just going to ignore every one of your replys that blindly ignores everything thats been posted thus far in this thread
morganth from now on i'm just going to ignore every one of your replys that blindly ignores everything thats been posted thus far in this thread
Ok, but you are whining about complete crap. If its such a problem, why isn't anyone else complaining? I don't see it as a problem inside NC anyway, every player and his brother run around with a PPU, and if you can't kill a PE with a PPU you shouldn't be playing the game.
I play a PE. I have a stealth tool. I don't use it in a combat situation because it makes no difference. If I stealth, even with a heal on, the fight has got to the stage where I can't win, and the stealth is just prolonging the time to my death. If PEs stealth as much as you claim they do, then they won't be able to kill you. I can't see why you don't just leave the zone instead of creating a thread about how someone got the best of you.
*sigh*
how old are you? 11?
you argue like an 11 year old.
i typed out a pretty long post but before i hit reply i realised you would just say the EXACT same things to save your precious stealth (pretty obvious you use it more than you should), so..
*ignores*
*sigh*
how old are you? 11?
you argue like an 11 year old.
i typed out a pretty long post but before i hit reply i realised you would just say the EXACT same things to save your precious stealth (pretty obvious you use it more than you should), so..
*ignores*
I'm not 11, sorry to disappoint you. I don't care about stealth, like I said previously (didn't read it perhaps?) I was a better PE without it. Now I just use it to move around because my presence isn't welcome inside the city. The duration of stealth is long enough for me to be able to drug up if I get attacked and come out of stealth battle ready. Thats its only use for me, unless you happen to know how I play my character better than you.
You are whining about PEs stealth not because it is a problem in general, but because you don't know how to deal with it.
If you lose a PE that stealths in the wholesome 10secs they have to get away, thats not their fault. 10 secs is next to nothing in terms of escape, and if they have a heal on you can easily follow them. Hope you can understand that.
10 sec = getting out of view (wall or something)
+ 10 sec = getting far away (step by step)
+ 10 sec = far far away
etc etc...
you know, stealthwhoring is lame, not only a PE who stalth 1 time in 10 min of fight...
I'm not 11, sorry to disappoint you. I don't care about stealth, like I said previously (didn't read it perhaps?) I was a better PE without it. Now I just use it to move around because my presence isn't welcome inside the city. The duration of stealth is long enough for me to be able to drug up if I get attacked and come out of stealth battle ready. Thats its only use for me, unless you happen to know how I play my character better than you.
You are whining about PEs stealth not because it is a problem in general, but because you don't know how to deal with it.
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1849252&postcount=41
10 sec = getting out of view (wall or something)
+ 10 sec = getting far away (step by step)
+ 10 sec = far far away
etc etc...
you know, stealthwhoring is lame, not only a PE who stalth 1 time in 10 min of fight...
Don't you follow them then? :rolleyes:
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1849252&postcount=41
Never had those problems. My monk always has FA on him, my tank always has a Dev, my PPU doesn't need mentioning, and my PE either DBs or just follows the stealth cloud (its really easy to follow stealthers when you break their legs ;) ).
stealth isnt a big deal, as ive said the only people who want it removed are the ones who run around in groups of 12 that are mostly PPUs and are angry that some lone PE has a way to escape them. there are other times it's used but I think these are most of the people that are so against it.
stealth is one of those things that can be nerfed once we hit PPUs hard
spies dont need stealth anymore then a pe does, its useful though, and i like it for escaping from retardedly outnumbered fights especially when im always get para/db first thing 10vs 1 ;)
Really?
How is it that a spy doesnt need it anymore than a PE? Why do you think this?
My unbuffed un drugged silent hunting spy most certainly needs it to relocate and to survive if i get spotted and hit once or twice i aint running far and i dont do close combat setups with my sh from a distance only when i have my FL out so buffin aint a option less i am close not worth the money loss.
Love gettin the jump aswell comin out of stealth with a slasher in someones back why they dont even realise is just evil
a spy can be just as tough in close combat as a pe, so why would a spy need it more? the only reason is if you go with a non combat setup, and every class could do that....
i can make a sniper tank setup with my rav thats not good in close combat but that doesn't mean we should give tanks stealth.
a spy can be just as tough in close combat as a pe, so why would a spy need it more? the only reason is if you go with a non combat setup, and every class could do that....
i can make a sniper tank setup with my rav thats not good in close combat but that doesn't mean we should give tanks stealth.
Very well said. Just beacuse you don't have a combat setup doesn't mean that spys are not good up close.
actually, the comparision is flawed. Tank sniper can do pretty well in close combat as opposed to spy sniper who die in 3 seconds. Same with monk and PE. You cannot make those chars as much weak as a spy, no matter what you do.
Spy is the weakest class of all, it can be enhanced to almost equal to the rest due to drugs - but its an enhancement, not normal state. Any other class can pop a drug (or 2 or 3) and be better than drugged spy. Thats why you shouldnt take drugs into account, simply as it is.
I would agree with you if spies would have the access to shelter and inq armor without drugs, than yeah, they would be equal then, but not the other way.
And case with stealth is just like with ppus. The easiest solution is to remove them. But it would make lots of players stripped of their chars (sniper would be unplayable class, just as deleted ppu), which is a little uncomfortable. The smartest solution would be to change: both ppus and stealth - i've already seen some pretty good ideas about both ppus and stealth.
But its up to KK unfortunately, which probably means nothing will change in the next 2 years.
first off id consider drugs just as part of a setup as an implant, not using drugs is the same as not using an implant or refusing to use primaries or a deflector... its just part of a setup, part of a game.
a pe could reach a point where they are marginally better then a spy (technically anyway) but at a glance i think thats more the fact it's so easy to cap weapons now for pe's then a fault of the spy. the pe just has more room to improve...
my spy has better then PE resists (including of course near capped xray), capped force/piercing resist, capped slasher, faster then most PE's and 400hp. its pretty well balanced with pe's even now... and i do not use any stealth but the noob one for 'avoiding' retarded fights.
a spy can be just as tough in close combat as a pe, so why would a spy need it more? the only reason is if you go with a non combat setup, and every class could do that....
Perhaps because a spy need to take more drugs ? (mostly)
kthxbyelol
But its up to KK unfortunately, which probably means nothing will change in the next 2 years. CORRECT !
As I see it, the only problem with stealth is chain stealthing, and classes with no means of AoE damage.
A PE will most likely stealth when low on hp, or if he sees more players incomming. If you are a heavy tank or an apu you can simply throw AoE around you and still have a chance to damage the PE.
If you are a PE, Spy or MC Tank you stand no chance, all you can do is to try and follow the cloud best you can.
Sometimes, when things are a bit laggy, the PE will restealth without being seen for more then a split second, and if you are not looking in that direction you will not spot him. This is however not an issue with the stealth itself, but it causes alot of frustration (atleast for me).
I have always conisdered stealth to be a "high end" spy device, meaning it requires alot of INT and DEX. I think stealth should be available for PEs, but only to those that boost DEX and INT alot, and not for every single PE there is.
PEs do need something of their own, and I have always thought that Jet-Packs was the coolest idea ever. This would allow the PE to infiltrate OPs and whatnot, and also gain some distance from the fight if things go bad, but going (almost) invisible for large periods of time is simply not something a PE should be able to do, we have enough defence to not need this, and if you were to specc for stealth you would be giving up some of that defence.
Anyways, just my thoughts.
jetpacks will never be implemented
can you imagine them with neocrons netcode?
Im aware nothing is realisticly going to be done about this or anything else we whine about on the forums but its good to put in my "bit" so here it is
The problem with Pe's stealthing is how its used with there other ablities. Spys have better stealth because they used it to escape danger and relocate to get a better firing position perhaps hide and heal up.
Pe's are using it to laugh in our faces. they use it to a minor relocate while most likely (with their FAR superior psi ablities) heal back to almost full hp while with the way they can chain stealth your pulling your hair out trying to find them as their name keeps poping up on local and as they are so fast and can absorb more dmg than your avrage tank apu or spy due to have shelter etc. in most situations with a PE attacking you. its guna be one of the following outcomes.
1. DIE
2. Run to safty. GR UG or somewhere else they cant follow.
3. Fight them and if by some wonder you can stand up to the kind of dmg they do. (this means you must be a hybrid) they will eventually stealth away
4. their drugs run out and they stealth away.
And i understand their arguement "we only get 8-10 seconds stealth" but this is why it was removed from them in NC 1 in that time due to a PEs speed and superior psi ablities they can either choose to escape or heal to full and if not full just slap another heal on and chain stealth till they are. on other note i think the "newb mission rewards" should somehow be made PROFFESION only. to stop the everyone having them. i.e the Tl 10 heal should be made for newb PPUs and hybrids only.
well thats it ive had my badly spelled rant at the proverbial brick wall that is KK. Feel free to tell me how wrong/stupid/dumb i am , opnions are great eh. Isnt Democracy a bitch !.
Peace and chicken grease fellow FRE users
read the rest of the thread please ive explained all the things youve posted there at least 2 timesAnd you don't seem to get it. Neocron is dynamic. KK changes things quite often. Eventually, someone will adapt and you'll reap the benefit of their "how to kill Stealth PEs" FAQ.
Stealth has many legitimate uses OUTSIDE of PvP. Nerfing it for PvP makes it far less useful for non-PvP purposes. I, for one, have very little desire to wait around 10 seconds or deal with SI when trying to skirt mobs or sneak around inside faction HQs.
People dealt with PE Stealth before and they'll deal with it again. KK apparently weighed the consequences of putting it back in and decided it was for the best. Maybe they'll take it back out if you whine enough, but nerfing it overall would suck.
Stealth has many legitimate uses OUTSIDE of PvP. Nerfing it for PvP makes it far less useful for non-PvP purposes. I, for one, have very little desire to wait around 10 seconds or deal with SI when trying to skirt mobs or sneak around inside faction HQs.
Good point. It is an invaluable tool to play out the 'infiltrator' profession correctly and from what I remember this profession is made available only to spies and PEs. It kind of screws up the profession for a PE if you take away the stealth now.
Bugs Gunny
31-07-05, 09:14
Only reason why most pe's use stealth is if they go in vs multiple targets.
A pe that attacks a person and stealths everytime he gets hit is a dead pe.
Poison and fire make him stand out like a lightbulb.
Damageboost and parashock makes you able to track em too.
And people should learn that YOU can tl3 heal them too so they can be tracked for 15 seconds while their stealth lasts only 10.
I play a combat pe and i get killed 9/10 by the same people at crp. Why? Because they know what they're doing and usualy those guys are alone and without ppu.
I've fought stealthwhoring pe's before, and by that i mean pe's who will shoot once, stealth, reposition, shoot once, stealth. They're no problem as they die easier than a spy without armor or a con setup.
People who bitch about stealth should try playing a stealth character and learn how to kill them by seeing what experienced fighters use on them.
I know that since i started playing a stealther the only thing that still makes me go nuts is an obliterator sniper with medpacks.
i use stealth on my PE for two things; escaping from people who attack me with rediculous numbers (me vs 12 ppl half ppus is just not going to be worth bothering). and when im fighting someone outnumbered (3vs1,4vs1ish) optimally killing one then stealthing to heal/drug to come right back but sometimes more stealthing if they are actually good, but i always return and do die if they know what they are doing, i dont safe zone sync. (but that is another issue that has nothing to do with stealth)
stealth is really only ABUSED by really bad pe's (that stealth so often its just rediculous) and sniper spies or droners with no resists to their name (which you cant exactly blame them for stealthing when someone gets close ;))
there are ways to stop abuse of it, but PPUs/ppus hybrids are a much large problem and often even a cause of stealth abuse.
Dr Strange
31-07-05, 13:10
I definitely say no (to the whole drugflash thing)
Spies and PE's, while not 100% "gimped", are at a disadvantage aganist other classes.
Look at these senarios:
PPU roaming the wastes, runs into a Tank (MC or HC doesn't matter) he can defend himself, easily (as we all know.)
APU roaming, runs into a Tank. While he may be an easy kill for the Tank, he can at least pump out some equal-if-not-more damage to the Tank as well.
Replace Tank with APU, PPU or even a Rigger. Either way the Monk and Tank class are faily balanced with each other in terms of damage output incase of random encounters, or at least I think so.
Now, place a Spy and/or PE in the mix...
Spy roaming, encounters a Tank or APU. Assuming he has the apropriate gear setup, and isn't weak in a resistance that the Tank/APU may be dealing damage in, he has one fighting chance: stick n move. Hit'em and hide. He can't go toe-to-toe with a Tank. You do a capped Tank (all around) and a capped Spy, assuming the Tank knows what he is doing he will crush the Spy with life to spare. Maybe the same with an APU, the battle would be more close to even but more often than not the APU would come out alive.
PE roaming, encounters a Tank or APU. He has a slightly more advantage than a Spy, more health, better armor, better resists. Depending apon setup, I'd say a Spy would cap the higher-end damage weapons and do more damage than a PE. But it's not a matter of pure damage output on the Spy/PE's part it's a matter of living the "encounter". Same thing, stick n move. Stealth when needed and use your speed to your advantage.
Now some say "not all classes are supposed to be equal, some are supposed to be better/stronger (in some areas at least) than others". I would agree. If this was World of Warcraft, I'd agree. We don't have 3.5 million subscribers. We barely have, if I had to guess based on server populations of actual players not payed accounts, less than 1000 people.
The point? If we had that many people, yea there could be some classes stronger than others, the numbers and clans would make up for it (in large scale fights that is). In Neocron, you are playing in a ghost town. Sadly as it is, it's true. So the whole "random encounter" becomes more possible. Even if you have to go to the more "populated" areas like CRP or Battledome or MB, you'll eventually just randomly happen apon an enemy. And chances are it's going to be someone of a different class. So you're left with either being underpowered aganist a random enemy, or on an "even" level.
Stealth gives Spies and PE's, that "even" level.
There are plenty of counters. If they heal while stealthed, you see the bubbles... If they stealth an run away, hit them with AoE if you can. You won't kill them likely but you'll wound them even more and force more healing. Sooner or later their stealth will run out and they'll have to reactivate it. Pay attention at that time you'll have at least 1-2 seconds to tag them with some effect to better give off their position... If they whore the zone lines, leave. I mean if their zoning to avoid dying, you're obviously winning the fight theres no point in wasting your time on someone who won't honorably die.
It's not broke, don't fix it. If you can't find ways to work with the games abilities and inner workings of the meta-game, then quit. Don't ruin it for others.
Scanner Darkly
31-07-05, 13:29
Good post Dr and I mostly agree with your points. However I think PE requirementless-stealth should be removed from the PvPers and replaced with normal stealth 1 whilst stealth 2 and 3 and obliterator should have INT requirements to place it outside the reach of a PE. [at the same time it is a wonderful tool for use when GRing into hostile zones and stealthing while SIed]
My problem lies with lowtech PEs who not only have excellent resists, DB but also a stealth tool that's equal to stealth one without having to spend any TC points to use it...
If this is not to change however, I propose that the newbie stealth be made more "visible" and the duration should perhaps be more random and unpredictable, between say 5-15 seconds (or whatever the current max is).
I love it how people are still whining about stealth given back to PE's, now once upon a time no one was playing spys. Spys were meant to be weak and totaly gimped but the truth is they never were weak :wtf: only the players playing them were weak. But then one day after so much whining about PE's being stealth whore's, the mighty nerf bat fell upon us and this pissed some people off. Alot of the players who had Hightech PE's had there playstyle destroyed, they began looking for an alternative and the spy was the closest.
The same players that once played hightech PE's with stealth began making mostly pistol spys, for the first time ever the spy was being geared for hardcore pvp. Not just tradeskilling or hunting warbots but pure pvp and they worked it out with the skill manager the perfect spy setup. First there was one, then there was three and then people saw just how good pistol spys really were :rolleyes: and so many many people made there own pistol spy.
But you had the players like me who had a lowtech PE, so was not really fussed about losing stealth as they could tackle most PE's that used stealth. But then a few month later I just so happen to bump into one of these enemy pistol spys and so I attacked expecting the spy to fall down dead with less than a clip of libby. But he didn't ... he had resists just as good as mine because like the PE having to drug into hightech pistols. He had druged into fire armour and shelter, I did get his health down however I took a battering and was on the brink of death, What did he do ? Thats right he fucking stealthed just LIKE the PE's once did, he healed then stealthed. He killed me once his stealth wore out, he killed me using a pistol that melted me within seconds and had resists as good as mine.
I thought thats just the bloody same thing people were whining about with PE's ......
Thats the way I see it anyway :rolleyes:
Scanner Darkly
31-07-05, 14:36
Perhaps it is because I spend a lot of time fighting lowtech PEs with staggeringly good resists (I just ran it through neoskiller and came up with a lowtech PE that has 80% in all resists no POR [GD] and over 500 hlt after buffs) that I think they should have to spend tc points to stealth.
But thinking about this again it would mean lowtech PEs would become more or less extinct again if they had to have 85 TC for stealth I. In case that whining comment was aimed at me, I think theres a difference between constructive criticism and moaning/whining/griping whatever you want to call it.
I'm perfectly happy to fight any lowtech PE with stealth or without - just deal with the fact if next time we fight I'll stealth before you can kill me...
I love it how people are still whining about stealth given back to PE's, now once upon a time no one was playing spys. Spys were meant to be weak and totaly gimped but the truth is they never were weak :wtf: only the players playing them were weak. But then one day after so much whining about PE's being stealth whore's, the mighty nerf bat fell upon us and this pissed some people off. Alot of the players who had Hightech PE's had there playstyle destroyed, they began looking for an alternative and the spy was the closest.
The same players that once played hightech PE's with stealth began making mostly pistol spys, for the first time ever the spy was being geared for hardcore pvp. Not just tradeskilling or hunting warbots but pure pvp and they worked it out with the skill manager the perfect spy setup. First there was one, then there was three and then people saw just how good pistol spys really were :rolleyes: and so many many people made there own pistol spy.
But you had the players like me who had a lowtech PE, so was not really fussed about losing stealth as they could tackle most PE's that used stealth. But then a few month later I just so happen to bump into one of these enemy pistol spys and so I attacked expecting the spy to fall down dead with less than a clip of libby. But he didn't ... he had resists just as good as mine because like the PE having to drug into hightech pistols. He had druged into fire armour and shelter, I did get his health down however I took a battering and was on the brink of death, What did he do ? Thats right he fucking stealthed just LIKE the PE's once did, he healed then stealthed. He killed me once his stealth wore out, he killed me using a pistol that melted me within seconds and had resists as good as mine.
I thought thats just the bloody same thing people were whining about with PE's ......
Thats the way I see it anyway :rolleyes:
Took the words right out of my mouth. Except I was a nib HT PE, and I never rolled a spy. I just played on, and put up with the fact that some skinny git with a swirly could kill me over a period of 10 mins just by stealthing. And apparently, that was ok. But now, if I stealth even once on my PE (usually when my drugs aren't on), I am a dirty dirty whore that should be incinerated :rolleyes:
I fought a pistol spy today and I swear I must have put like 12 bursts into him, he had better resist than some of the god damn tanks I fight. A spy using slasher, spys are no where near weak, so if they can stealth then so can the PE's its only fair. All I'm saying is, if PE's lose stealth then so should the spys because the spys only real weakness is posion and maybe 20 - 35 less hitpoints.
/edit
I could not give a crap what they do with stealth but what ever they do to it, it has to affect both PE and SPY because spys are just as bad when it comes to stealth whoring.
I just ran it through neoskiller and came up with a lowtech PE that has 80% in all resists no POR [GD] and over 500 hlt after buffs
If your looking at resists as a percentage in a skill manage then you have no idea about how to balance resist + hitpoints correctly. Over 500 hitpoints after buffs is going to leave your total armour resists below 100 points. The highest I could get my PE without drugging is 125 in each resist with 440 ish hitpoints, which is what I currently have, yes there could be better but it would be much. If I druged for BR 3 and lowered my resist to 119 total fire/ener/xray I could get 470 maybe 480 hitpoints, if you are getting over 500 hitpoints on a self buffed PE you did something wrong o_O
The Lowtech PE's you are fighting have played as one for a very long time and know exactly how to play there characters.
Lifewaster
01-08-05, 15:19
There are plenty of counters. If they heal while stealthed, you see the bubbles... If they stealth an run away, hit them with AoE if you can. You won't kill them likely but you'll wound them even more and force more healing. Sooner or later their stealth will run out and they'll have to reactivate it. Pay attention at that time you'll have at least 1-2 seconds to tag them with some effect to better give off their position... .
This really doesnt seem to work out vs PEs however, vs Spies it does cos spies move slower.
But PEs are just too fast , and usually within the 10 seconds they are out of local range and out of sight, even if they do pop back on local, they are stealthed again before you can do a 360 degree turn to try to locate them visually , and this is if there doesnt happen to be any obstacles for them to hide behind.
I have fought tons of mr jones PEs recently in crp, and most of the counters do not work, poison is removed by a drug, DB is removed by a drug, Para is removed by a drug, fire disappears too fast.
The only counter that has any chance of letting you follow them is heal bubbles , and even tl3 heal , stacked with their use of medkits while stealthed , is usually more then enough for them to outheal whatever damage you are capable of inflicting.
Adding the fact that they only classes capable of outhealing hits from an exe/slasher are already gimped in dmg , its almost impossible to find a char that can effectively take down a mr jones pe , barring multi lightning hybrids.
If stealth is to stay with its current visibility, and these counters are supposed to be usable, then I'd suggest that all inventory items be disabled while stealthed, ie: no using anti-drugs or medkits while stealthed.
Then the counters would indeed work.
Lucid Dream
01-08-05, 15:40
So whats going to be done about stealth?
Hopefully, nothing.
You know....spies are almost useless in MC5 if not totally...I like having spies shine outside of that, most important, area of performance. Spies need some awesome ability.
Bugs Gunny
01-08-05, 15:44
Lifewaster, i think i'm one of those mr jones pes at crp you mentioned.
There are a few people in the dome that know exactly how to take out a stealthing pe. And they didn't need any ppu support for it either.
I'm not going to list all the ways to kill a stealther. Ask around for some tips, but if it's so damn hard, then how come there's pe's that are able to track and kill other pe's so easy?
When a hybrid monk dies 9/10 fights, there's nothing wrong with the other class, there's something wrong with the person playing that hybrid. HINT: you can use a spell that hits a stealther WHILE he's in stealth.
And btw, combat spies are actualy FASTER than pe's, plus they usualy get up to stealth III too. More time to pop antidrugs etc.
Original monk
01-08-05, 15:46
Hopefully, nothing.
very enjoyable seeing that avater back here ! seeing youre (flash)movie again brings up nice memory's and at the same time pitty situations
have fun !
Lifewaster
01-08-05, 16:13
I'm not going to list all the ways to kill a stealther. Ask around for some tips, but if it's so damn hard, then how come there's pe's that are able to track and kill other pe's so easy?
I think I covered that already when I said theres few classes that can 1v1 a Jones PE , barring multi lightning hybrids. ?
It goes without saying jones PEs can 1v1 each other , thats kinda obvious I would have thought since both can use stealth so its possible to get a drop on the PE instead of letting him stealth instantly you appear on his local before you get a visual /shrug.
Its all about the damage you can inflict vs the damage you can absorb/avoid.
APU hybs dont seem to inflict enough to drop the pe before the slasher/exe drops them ......unless they are prior buffed with Psi combat 3.
Same with tanks , same with apus. I am falling over dead tanks/apus in crp these days whenever theres a single jones pe in the zone.
Blessed hybs using multi energy bolt can bardly outdamage a medkit, let alone a tl 10/medkit combo. The only time I kill PEs with this spell , is when they think they have me killed which sometimes happens when I heal myself before their tl 3 hits and they then think I've been tl3 -ed .....and leave it too late to stealth , at which point you get 1 or 2 hits before they are clear of the area.
So yep theres one template that can kill them....... a multi-lightning hybrid, which I find to be the cheesiest template in the game and would really like to avoid rolling to.
HINT: you can use a spell that hits a stealther WHILE he's in stealth.
I think the multi-lightning hybrid I mentioned covers this... ?
edit:
Actually I'm working on another template that might also work , I'll let you know the results in a few days :p
Bugs Gunny
01-08-05, 16:54
Funny, as some the people that get me every damn time are:
Solo ravager using HC tank, who pulls out dev on occasions.
Apu hybrid on selfbuffs.
Unbuffed apu monk.
Ppu hybrid.
I think the fact that a few people decided to turn up the crp raids a notch (12 hour straight raidings etc) has a few dome people concerned.
I know it's not fun to have your leveling session interupted 5 times because you have to log a combat alt or ppu to rez. (Been crahn i know all about crp etc).
We used to fight till we all got tracked and killed, however we now find it much more amusing to go in, kill a bunch of people, watch the ppu army being mobilised and then ....... log off for a while to go read on doy alliance how frustrated people get in their search.....
It goes without saying jones PEs can 1v1 each other , thats kinda obvious
If you think it's self-evident that a mr jones pe can track and kill another one, then how come all those doy pe's out there don't? There would be no need for the ppus etc, just send in 5 pe's to kill the 4-5 other pe's.
Scanner Darkly
01-08-05, 21:07
I fought a pistol spy today and I swear I must have put like 12 bursts into him, he had better resist than some of the god damn tanks I fight. A spy using slasher, spys are no where near weak, so if they can stealth then so can the PE's its only fair. All I'm saying is, if PE's lose stealth then so should the spys because the spys only real weakness is posion and maybe 20 - 35 less hitpoints.
/edit
I could not give a crap what they do with stealth but what ever they do to it, it has to affect both PE and SPY because spys are just as bad when it comes to stealth whoring.
If your looking at resists as a percentage in a skill manage then you have no idea about how to balance resist + hitpoints correctly. Over 500 hitpoints after buffs is going to leave your total armour resists below 100 points. The highest I could get my PE without drugging is 125 in each resist with 440 ish hitpoints, which is what I currently have, yes there could be better but it would be much. If I druged for BR 3 and lowered my resist to 119 total fire/ener/xray I could get 470 maybe 480 hitpoints, if you are getting over 500 hitpoints on a self buffed PE you did something wrong o_O
The Lowtech PE's you are fighting have played as one for a very long time and know exactly how to play there characters.
So basically you're calling me an idiot/nib. OKay let me spell it out for you. I dont skill POR (I use green dragon) - you do.
FIR: 51 resist + 78 armour
ENR: 72 resist + 60 armour
XRR: 78 resist + 46 armour (implants)
HLT after buffs/drugs: 501
plenty of speed, although ATH is not exatly high it is easily made up for by AGI
If I fight monks/tanks with devs all I need to do is STEALTH pop GREEN DRAGON - now HLT is 356 and POR IS CAPPED....
BUFFS: spy melee heat 1 shelter blessed deflector (ofc)
This setup uses 2 drugs however, as I have no problem using drugs on any char to take full advantage of a class (BEAST NS).
IMPS: MOVEON PPR SF ZERK 3 S CYBER 4 EXP REFLEX 4 EXP HEART 2 (not FH2)
You use a TL70 odd rifle - you have no right to moan about the fairly shitty damage it does (i know only 10% or so less than a PE) - I can almost outheal it with DB off, as can anyone...
@ Gunny: sorry I think you give yourself too much credit - we find your "raids" entertaining. Anyway leveling in CRP is usually pretty pointless, its full of LE newbs and such etc...
Keep on coming, every raid provides much amusement and hilarity, no matter who lives/dies.
a spy can be just as tough in close combat as a pe, so why would a spy need it more? the only reason is if you go with a non combat setup, and every class could do that....
i can make a sniper tank setup with my rav thats not good in close combat but that doesn't mean we should give tanks stealth.
Explain in more detail please, how is it the weakest character in the game is just as tough as a PE?? A PE is tougher than a Spy period, just look at the difference in CON points for example + their ability to use Shelter. Spies can use Shelter but they must use drugs. If you compare both classes using drugs a PE is still tougher!!
The only advantage a Spy has that they can do more damage! They are balanced purely on this note, PE's take more damage, and Spies deal more damage but cant take as much damage as a PE!!
Disturbed21
02-08-05, 00:11
I still think there should be a recharge time between stealth uses (say 5-10 secs), which just might stop constant stealth whoring...
^^ Most viable/best solution.
I was against PEs stealthing a long time ago, since they got it back I have killed more PEs than ever b4 :lol: Definetly let them keep it :angel:
^^ Most viable/best solution.No, it's not. It would be better for KK to remove Stealth from PEs than alter its function in any way.
Don't think solely about PvP. Take into account its operationl outside PvP. Right now, Stealth has a built-in delay between restealths of about two seconds (raise hand, wait a second, fire). That's more than enough to make me watch Obliterator's countdown bar while in transit.
Disturbed21
02-08-05, 03:06
No, it's not. It would be better for KK to remove Stealth from PEs than alter its function in any way.
That's your opinion. I see nothing wrong with PEs having stealth...
Don't think solely about PvP. Take into account its operationl outside PvP. Right now, Stealth has a built-in delay between restealths of about two seconds (raise hand, wait a second, fire). That's more than enough to make me watch Obliterator's countdown bar while in transit.
Sorry but this is a PvP game and things like stealth should be balanced for PvP.
If your only argument is having problems finding a spot to reactivate an Oblit when PvMing....
on my spy, i never really ahd trouble running away.
with fall dmg, at cycrow spy sniping is crazy to get away from now.
also fire is god when u are stealthed, its a beacon saying f**k me up.
You use a TL70 odd rifle - you have no right to moan about the fairly shitty damage it does (i know only 10% or so less than a PE) - I can almost outheal it with DB off, as can anyone...
Would you like to try that one ingame ?
I was not moaning about its damage output, I was telling people to get a clue when they are saying spys need stealth because they have shit resist. Btw if you want to spec 500 plus body health which is like 30 more than my own PE and have shit runspeed with no posion resist then thats your choice. But don't think 356 hitpoints with capped posion is going to save you from the dev which does mostly fire damage and eats through low health setups especialy slow PE's.
Bugs Gunny
02-08-05, 10:43
Little T, you have absolutely no clue......
When i popped a green dragon on my spy in a duel at cycrow, i went down to 198 health, yet i used medpacks and a tl3 heal and almost outhealed the dev. I stood there in front of the near dead tank, punching him in the face fully stacked.
And the tsunami rifle does GOED dammage. I compared it on a mob PE:53 TR:50
Little T, you have absolutely no clue......
When i popped a green dragon on my spy in a duel at cycrow, i went down to 198 health, yet i used medpacks and a tl3 heal and almost outhealed the dev. I stood there in front of the near dead tank, punching him in the face fully stacked.
And the tsunami rifle does GOED dammage. I compared it on a mob PE:53 TR:50
Almost is not good enough, let me explain I have enough posion to do the same BUT on my setup I have 473 hitpoints that means I live longer than you. You got that ? :rolleyes: and thats with out having to fuck about with drugs etc and at least if there another damage deal such as APU I don't die in 3 hits from his HL.
There normaly is more than one person shooting you.. and just wtf are you going to do when the tank whips out his CS or worse Rav ?
Bugs Gunny
02-08-05, 11:06
If he whips out his cs i don't care, it'll do low dammage anyway.
Hell most apus are dead before they realise their poisonstacks don't work.
Rav, ok that'll do me in, but then i still have a chance due to high runspeed or just repositioning and sniping him.
And if there's an apu and a tank... there's not many people standing a chance in a two on one anyway
If you are so confident in your setup, then how come you never venture past the mb zoneline?
If you are so confident in your setup, then how come you never venture past the mb zoneline?
I do I was in plaza 1 and 2 today and yesterday I was also at CRP killing TG's the other day. I was also in pepper park yesterday with a spy 2 pe's and apu on me and they wondered why I stealthed alot and ran to safezone, omg sorry for being a zonewhore how dare me I should just let everyone gank me and loot my red sl belt o_O
A year hence and people are still bitching about PEs and stealth.
Asurmen Spec Op
02-08-05, 12:32
A year hence and people are still bitching about PEs and stealth.
Things never change do they?
Nope. Although with Para still here I'm going to have to bitch about that.
So I'm just a filthy hypocrite.
Jesterthegreat
02-08-05, 13:36
such a long thread...
1. no one should have stealth as it stands. it needs altering. a "charge time" would be a good solution... but that makes it useless for tradeskillers who use it soley for escape. but then... isn't using it for escape as much abusing an espionage tool as using it for combat?
2. spies havent been "weak" for so very long. fight spyware. fight kitsunex. fight any really good spy... they know how to spec a spy. a spy can have PE defences, barring poison (50-60 points makes a debatable difference), and about 100 health. thats with 2 drugs, the same 2 as my PE takes.
The only advantage a Spy has that they can do more damage!
My PE does the same damage as a Spy, and thats without DB.
Bugs Gunny
02-08-05, 15:56
A spy gets close to pe defenses, yet he can also poke tl115 AND hack 115 if he wants, while fully capping his slasher AND run faster than a pe. Also with this setup he can use stealth III.
A comparable pe would take the same drugs, yet he won't fully cap his slasher and he can't hack. He does however get more defense from his shelter and has about 50 more health.
Reason to play a pe: Caps in a few days
Reason to play a spy: Pokes himself and hack the belts of his kill.
A spy gets close to pe defenses, yet he can also poke tl115 AND hack 115 if he wants, while fully capping his slasher AND run faster than a pe. Also with this setup he can use stealth III.
A comparable pe would take the same drugs, yet he won't fully cap his slasher and he can't hack. He does however get more defense from his shelter and has about 50 more health.
Reason to play a pe: Caps in a few days
Reason to play a spy: Pokes himself and hack the belts of his kill.
That's also one of the problems today as i see it.
The PE today is nothing but a mini version of the spy, if you don't mind using
drugs to optimize your setup, there is really not much reason to play a PE
anymore, other then heavy/melee setups and lowtech non-druging PEs.
The spy can, as you mention, cap his weapons, poke himself, hack belts or OPs
and also have great runspeed together with stealth III if shit hits the fan.
While the spy will use drugs to boost his defense, and almost reach PE defense,
the PE will use drugs to boost his offence, and almost reach spy offence.
About stealth, I still see it as a spy only tool, one that needs tweaking preventing
chain-stealth with zero delay. I would much rather see PEs get some kind of
PE only tool instead to make them more attractive as a class.
A Pe only tool seems like a good idea...any good ideas for one?
Bugs Gunny
02-08-05, 16:47
Xcuse me but the only realy viable non drug pe setups are HC pe with speedgat and a lowtech pe.
Melee pe's andmost HC pe's drugwhore just as bad, sometimes worse.
As for a specific PE tool: Give PEs bicycles. NO TC req and just 5 veh. PE only. That'll make the class a lot more atractive to play.
A Pe only tool seems like a good idea...any good ideas for one?
Jet-packs you say, why that would be cool...
Bugs Gunny
02-08-05, 16:51
Jet packs would rock cuz then we could impact into the ceiling, invisible objects and blow up against the sides of mountains or on the invisible extensions of trees :-)
Xcuse me but the only realy viable non drug pe setups are HC pe with speedgat and a lowtech pe.
Melee pe's andmost HC pe's drugwhore just as bad, sometimes worse.
Yeah, what I meant was that PEs can go melee/hc while spys cannot, didn't say
they weren't drugwhores.
As for a specific PE tool: Give PEs bicycles. NO TC req and just 5 veh. PE only. That'll make the class a lot more atractive to play.
Yes, and make it not require to be spawned, it could be a folded bike in your backpack.
But that would be overpowred, so make it move slower that the PEs runspeed,
and also have a flat-tire every 2 minutes, for the sake of balance.
(edit)
Jet packs would rock cuz then we could impact into the ceiling, invisible objects and blow up against the sides of mountains or on the invisible extensions of trees :-)
Working as intended.
Bugs Gunny
02-08-05, 16:56
Ooooh nice :-)
I also want it to make the same squeeky noises the rhino makes.
You know like the pedals and chains desperately need some oil.
Ooooh nice :-)
I also want it to make the same squeeky noises the rhino makes.
You know like the pedals and chains desperately need some oil.
Im thinking:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/Rusty_Schwinn.JPEG
Im thinking:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/Rusty_Schwinn.JPEG
:lol: The bike would surely fit with the post apocalyptic feel ;) Look toasted
BloodLetting
02-08-05, 17:28
ouch no seat...
O well I gues many get it in the butt often :lol:
Jesterthegreat
02-08-05, 19:08
Xcuse me but the only realy viable non drug pe setups are HC pe with speedgat and a lowtech pe.
Melee pe's andmost HC pe's drugwhore just as bad, sometimes worse.
As for a specific PE tool: Give PEs bicycles. NO TC req and just 5 veh. PE only. That'll make the class a lot more atractive to play.
i could alter my PE setup to use no drugs... i would lose the poison, but its debatable how much difference 50 or 60 poison makes anyway.
i would also look like a scuba diver... which is why i never did it :p
Original monk
02-08-05, 22:01
i had a bike like that and i had it locked with a big fatass lock !
they stole em :/
i think they wanted the lock and yust took the rest with em :/
this is no joke btw, onlything that worked was the light o.O
Scanner Darkly
03-08-05, 02:13
As for a specific PE tool: Give PEs bicycles. NO TC req and just 5 veh. PE only. That'll make the class a lot more atractive to play.
I want your babies
Jesterthegreat
03-08-05, 02:35
i had a bike like that and i had it locked with a big fatass lock !
they stole em :/
i think they wanted the lock and yust took the rest with em :/
this is no joke btw, onlything that worked was the light o.O
fuckin PE's...
give em a gun that shoots super heated plasma and no ones bikes are safe!
Lifewaster
04-08-05, 17:29
Maybe a Freq/Runcast factor change to the tools would be the best fix.
TL 10 could receive the same freq as an anti-dmg boost @ 11/min
Stealth 1 the same as holy anti dmg-boost @ 22/min
Stealth 2 the same as Shelter @ 42/min
Stealth 3 the same as Heal @ 52/min
Oblib the same as APU stuff @105 min
Spies would then be pretty unchanged, PEs would have to carry a droppable Stealth 1 or 2 , and/or stealth sooner then they currently do if they want to escape....or spec/drug for a stealth 3 if they really want to keep the current immunity.
Jesterthegreat
04-08-05, 17:42
PE's are no more of a problem than spies... and you can cast a heal, wait about a second, then put it away and it works. lets be honest... less than a second is as close to instant as it gets.
these changes wouldnt effect stealth whoring spies, but would stealth whoring PE's.
both need to be addressed as both have the same effect.
wtf is this why do people always bash the PE's for stealth whoring and not spys...
Jesterthegreat
04-08-05, 17:52
wtf is this why do people always bash the PE's for stealth whoring and not spys...
both are as bad as each other.
Lifewaster
04-08-05, 18:33
PE's are no more of a problem than spies... and you can cast a heal, wait about a second, then put it away and it works. lets be honest... less than a second is as close to instant as it gets.
these changes wouldnt effect stealth whoring spies, but would stealth whoring PE's.
both need to be addressed as both have the same effect.
I spose the real prob ppl find with stealth pes is their healing which means they are back rdy to kill you after the 10 secs, while a stealthing spy is almost guaranteed not to reappear for a minute or so, so the 10 seconds is often a benefit to PEs cos they get an aoto destealth without having to use a stealth-break drug. And the types of chars who are capable of forcing the PE to stealth are usually attack based, and weak defense wise , meaning they themselves are usually half dead from the PE by the time they force a stealth.
From experience anyway , if you force a Spy to stealth , that means hes been beaten and is running off to hide , you can afford to persue him pretty recklessly without much counter threat.
But if you force a PE to stealth , and you want to chase him down, it usually involves you neglecting to heal, refresh s/d etc, all in a vain attempt to keep on his trail ....... then when he pops out , hes fully healed and you are about to die. However if you do pause to rebuff, reheal s/d etc , then you have lost the trail.
So its a lose/lose situation for most classes vs a beaten PE a lot of the time , you can either risk everything to try and finish him off, and likely die yourself instead , or you can pause to rebuff etc, and face the fact that you are never gonna kill this pe.
If you wanna throw in the factor of belt drop zones , and factor that his stealth tool is undroppable, his weapon is in slot one, the single item of value he might drop is a pa, then compare that to your own items risk, vs reward , then 9 times out of 10 , most non-stealth classes will have to settle with letting a beaten PE escape.
This is why the issue is such with PEs and not with spies.
Jesterthegreat
04-08-05, 19:40
a spy heals slower, but thats the only valid point in that long post.
i know spies who have multiple tools in their belts, a 10 sec and a 30 sec for example.
theres a spy version of the noob stealth which is no drop if thats what they want to use... but since stealth is store bought dropping it is no problem at all. i would rather drop a stealth than a piece of inq armour with the item dist in NC2.
Lifewaster
04-08-05, 20:25
a spy heals slower, but thats the only valid point in that long post.
i know spies who have multiple tools in their belts, a 10 sec and a 30 sec for example.
theres a spy version of the noob stealth which is no drop if thats what they want to use... but since stealth is store bought dropping it is no problem at all. i would rather drop a stealth than a piece of inq armour with the item dist in NC2.
Well, tbh Im pretty sure you would rather stealth than drop anything :p
But yes the healing power is the prob , but the belt drop is valid also.
I'm sure the APU chasing the beaten PE would rather drop a piece of inq armor then drop his Fire apoc after the beaten PE comes out of stealth with full hp and kills him, but as a non-stealth class he doesnt really get that option.
Lifewaster
04-08-05, 23:09
A comparable pe would take the same drugs, yet he won't fully cap his slasher and he can't hack.
Thats strange, I've personally seen Combat PEs manage to inflitrate CRP caves , suprise and kill entire teams of unprepared lvling players (poison resist armor on etc) and still have time to hack 3 or 4 valuable belts before turning back on their portable LEs to escape . Not that they had anything of their own to risk dropping of course in any event, thanks to good old slot 1 and mr jones.
So either these pes are exploiting somehow to be able to fight and magically be able to hack also , or that claim is just plain wrong , and Mr Jones needs to take a good look at what damage he is doing to the game.
Bugs Gunny
04-08-05, 23:43
LOL that was just one PE btw :-)
And i DON'T cap my artifact healing light, far from it. Nor do i cap the slasher on my pe.
I have realy realy low psi use for which i drug to compensate, i'm running on 4 drugs, 5 when i'm about to hack a belt. I use a tl3 heal, because i get 28/min freq on a 5 slot tl10.....
Seriously... when one pe drops two hybrids, two apus and a tank.... do you realy think the problem is the pe's setup?
Lifewaster, i would kill you on my spy the same amount of times, on a hc pe probably faster with the pierce of the speedgat. Stop trying to blame the fact you die on your setup or "the pes". You are just simply the worst hybrid i've ever come across. You don't heal, you keep casting db even though i use drugs to take it off. And on top of that you use the wrong attackspells.
You wanna know how to kill a pe without the help of a ppu EVERY time you see him? Go talk to for instance mememenow from FF. He gets me 90% of the time we meet. And he's usualy alone, unbuffed... on his apu.....
You sir, picked the most overpowered class possible, the ppu or blessed hybrid. You die on it more than a no inq specced spy and you keep complaining about getting killed. If you think pe's are that awesome. Make one, cap it in three days and i'll duel you as many times as you want.
Jesterthegreat
04-08-05, 23:53
Well, tbh Im pretty sure you would rather stealth than drop anything :p
But yes the healing power is the prob , but the belt drop is valid also.
I'm sure the APU chasing the beaten PE would rather drop a piece of inq armor then drop his Fire apoc after the beaten PE comes out of stealth with full hp and kills him, but as a non-stealth class he doesnt really get that option.
i may have been disliked for "ally killing".
i may have been disliked for "killing people who are leveling".
but the only time i would stealth in a fight was if i was already fighting 3+ people, on my own, and a PPU turns up to help them.
so you have shown what you are "sure" of (your own words there...) holds no truth.
would i rather srop something easily replacable? yes. would i rather be a stealth whore, using an escape button cos i dont think i will win? no.
Original monk
05-08-05, 00:31
fuckin PE's...
give em a gun that shoots super heated plasma and no ones bikes are safe!
i knew PE's got sumthing to do with it again, they should lock em all behind bars :( NERF !
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 00:59
LOL that was just one PE btw :-)
Seriously... when one pe drops two hybrids, two apus and a tank.... do you realy think the problem is the pe's setup?
Personal attacks and childish gloating aside , I think you have indeed (indadvertently I guess) spelled out right there exactly what is wrong with PEs having stealth in its current form.
However I suspect you would prefer to just dm the second hybrid, both the apus, and the tank, and let them each know how much they suck and how easily they could have each killed you if they had been an overpowered multi-lightning hybrid .
So anyway, if you can tear youself away from your ego for a sec and back to the question, you claimed that Combat PEs cant hack ? But now your saying they can actually hack quite fine? Is one of those a lie or am I misunderstanding something ?
Jesterthegreat
05-08-05, 01:54
Personal attacks and childish gloating aside , I think you have indeed (indadvertently I guess) spelled out right there exactly what is wrong with PEs having stealth in its current form.
However I suspect you would prefer to just dm the second hybrid, both the apus, and the tank, and let them each know how much they suck and how easily they could have each killed you if they had been an overpowered multi-lightning hybrid .
So anyway, if you can tear youself away from your ego for a sec and back to the question, you claimed that Combat PEs cant hack ? But now your saying they can actually hack quite fine? Is one of those a lie or am I misunderstanding something ?
its not a problem with PE's. its a problem with stealth. whats stopping a spy doing the same thing? about 60 less poison resist and 50 or so less health?
Asurmen Spec Op
05-08-05, 01:58
its not a problem with PE's. its a problem with stealth. whats stopping a spy doing the same thing? about 60 less poison resist and 50 or so less health?
exactly, a spy is capable of the same and more, due to longer stealths. Plus they acually cap their weapons
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 03:31
its not a problem with PE's. its a problem with stealth. whats stopping a spy doing the same thing? about 60 less poison resist and 50 or so less health?
Maybe thats true, and its entirely down to the ease of lvling that has generally produced more PEs as throwaway griefing alts in the current climate.
However I think the PE's con is providing them a lot more options in durability and con setups, everyone passes this off as just 60 poison , when in fact its just as likely to be zero poison , with a green dragon, and stealth to zoneline as backup , then gaining and 60 more points versus the weapons that can actually kill stealthers , ie: fire and energy.
I've seen PEs running around CRP , in and out of the gogo room, with 12 or more runners trying to kill them, popping in and out of stealth , never taking enough damage to drop under half hlt , while Spies attempting the same feat are almost always dead within a few seconds of attempting such dramatics.
And need we mention, stealther spies dont have DB ? Without DB a spy would not have the damage to drop even one runner from a team in CRP Caves before being killed or forced to stealth , let alone 4 or 5 as the Pe is capable of.
I spose the real prob ppl find with stealth pes is their healing which means they are back rdy to kill you after the 10 secs, while a stealthing spy is almost guaranteed not to reappear for a minute or so, so the 10 seconds is often a benefit to PEs cos they get an aoto destealth without having to use a stealth-break drug. And the types of chars who are capable of forcing the PE to stealth are usually attack based, and weak defense wise , meaning they themselves are usually half dead from the PE by the time they force a stealth.
From experience anyway , if you force a Spy to stealth , that means hes been beaten and is running off to hide , you can afford to persue him pretty recklessly without much counter threat.
But if you force a PE to stealth , and you want to chase him down, it usually involves you neglecting to heal, refresh s/d etc, all in a vain attempt to keep on his trail ....... then when he pops out , hes fully healed and you are about to die. However if you do pause to rebuff, reheal s/d etc , then you have lost the trail.
So its a lose/lose situation for most classes vs a beaten PE a lot of the time , you can either risk everything to try and finish him off, and likely die yourself instead , or you can pause to rebuff etc, and face the fact that you are never gonna kill this pe.
If you wanna throw in the factor of belt drop zones , and factor that his stealth tool is undroppable, his weapon is in slot one, the single item of value he might drop is a pa, then compare that to your own items risk, vs reward , then 9 times out of 10 , most non-stealth classes will have to settle with letting a beaten PE escape.
This is why the issue is such with PEs and not with spies.
SPY would heal just as fast as a PE they also cap heal but ok..
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 05:40
SPY would heal just as fast as a PE they also cap heal but ok..
The point I was making is that when a team splits up and runs off to finish off a beaten spy , they will either kill him or he will escape........however when this happens vs a beaten Pe , you can expect them to simply get themselves killed one by one .
The point is that someone who has just lost a fight and used stealth to run away, should not be capable 10 seconds later of suddenly killing those ppl he ran away from.
And this does not happen with spies...... only with pes
Asurmen Spec Op
05-08-05, 06:21
The point I was making is that when a team splits up and runs off to finish off a beaten spy , they will either kill him or he will escape........however when this happens vs a beaten Pe , you can expect them to simply get themselves killed one by one .
The point is that someone who has just lost a fight and used stealth to run away, should not be capable 10 seconds later of suddenly killing those ppl he ran away from.
And this does not happen with spies...... only with pes
Ive seen it happen a number of times just most the really good spies are gone
Bugs Gunny
05-08-05, 09:43
Lifewaster i'm so sick of your whining.
One... Make a skillmanager setup for a pe that uses a healing light, hacks, gets the same runspeed as a spy and uses 4 drugs all the time.... Then tell me how it is better than a spy? I have LESS psi use than my pistol spy.
I get the same resists as my spy and 40 more health. I can't use a tl10 heal (tl3 does more for me).
Two... I don't use damageboost in crp raids. I didn't damageboost anyone in that runin with you and your team inside the cave. why??? i need the space in qb to cary antidrugs and my psipool and freq on the db is not that awesome.
Three... I'll come on my pistol spy and show you that he does exactly the same, runs faster and he'll even escape easier due to a stealth III.
I'll even let you in on a secret. PE resists 195/195/120/120/120/0
Spy resists 200+/196/114/120/133/0.
Four... I'm NOT griefing you. I'm an ENEMY runner, raiding a known ENEMY leveling area. I attack people of equal or close to equal rank and i'm ALWAYS outnumbered.
So, when i come raid crp on my spy tonight you'll probably start a whole thread on how spies are overpowered versus the ppu hybrid.
The name is sleezy gonzales he'll be there from around 10pm (edited for jester) brussels time.
Jesterthegreat
05-08-05, 10:38
Lifewaster i'm so sick of your whining.
One... Make a skillmanager setup for a pe that uses a healing light, hacks, gets the same runspeed as a spy and uses 4 drugs all the time.... Then tell me how it is better than a spy? I have LESS psi use than my pistol spy.
I get the same resists as my spy and 40 more health. I can't use a tl10 heal (tl3 does more for me).
Two... I don't use damageboost in crp raids. I didn't damageboost anyone in that runin with you and your team inside the cave. why??? i need the space in qb to cary antidrugs and my psipool and freq on the db is not that awesome.
Three... I'll come on my pistol spy and show you that he does exactly the same, runs faster and he'll even escape easier due to a stealth III.
I'll even let you in on a secret. PE resists 195/195/120/120/120/0
Spy resists 200+/196/114/120/133/0.
Four... I'm NOT griefing you. I'm an ENEMY runner, raiding a known ENEMY leveling area. I attack people of equal or close to equal rank and i'm ALWAYS outnumbered.
So, when i come raid crp on my spy tonight you'll probably start a whole thread on how spies are overpowered versus the ppu hybrid.
The name is sleezy gonzales he'll be there from around 22pm brussels time.
well said... except the 22pm thing :p
either 22:00 or 10pm surely?
people are stuck in the past. the fantasy that a spy is weak. it hasn't been true for so very long.
Asurmen Spec Op
05-08-05, 11:01
well said... except the 22pm thing :p
either 22:00 or 10pm surely?
people are stuck in the past. the fantasy that a spy is weak. it hasn't been true for so very long.
Damnit jester, stop it. Your ruining their fantasy that a PE is super overpowered and that it should be nerfed, no one could be that good it must be their class.
Lifewaster, Ive seen you fight, fought along side you, and against you. Im sorry to say it, but you really need better spells setup and skill, its just the truth.
Stop whining because you suck, and GTFO
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 17:00
I'll even let you in on a secret. PE resists 195/195/120/120/120/0
Hmm , very nice of you to reveal this little secret , Im assuming the 0 is poison resist correct ?
So can we now assume that every time a PE joins a stealth thread and defends his portable LE by saying the "only difference between him and a spy is 60 poison" is just a con attempt yes?
Jesterthegreat
05-08-05, 17:04
Hmm , very nice of you to reveal this little secret , Im assuming the 0 is poison resist correct ?
So can we now assume that every time a PE joins a stealth thread and defends his portable LE by saying the "only difference between him and a spy is 60 poison" is just a con attempt yes?
*sigh* its not hard to understand...
it's not a PE portable LE... its a portable LE period.
class doesnt make a difference.
PE's abuse it. spies abuse it.
quit whining cos a PE killed you.
stealth should be changed... not PE's and not spies. maybe there are issues with PE's (some think DB should be higher) and spies (some think shelter should be lower), but these are unrelated to the problem with stealth
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 17:53
/shrug
If you want to claim I whine when I die thats fine, however I have never once even bothered to reply to his childish DMs in game. And have even made a point of ignoring Buggs attempts to derail my PPU-hyb spells thread with his same antics there.
All I have done in this thread, Is provided feedback on the several aspects of conflict vs Pe stealth.
I have simply pointed out that Attack based chars who can beat a PE in the first round of fighting, lack the defense to survive a "second-wind" return of a stealthed PE they have just beaten , if you wish to childishly claim that thats just my fault for sucking thats fine. But pls explain to me why I see it happen to multiple Apus, tanks , spys who run off to chase down beaten pes in crp. Or do they all just suck also ?
I have also pointed out how hybrids (barring the overpowered Multi-lightning blessed hybrid which is a special case deserving of its own nerf) cannot effectively pursue a beaten PE either due to the need to waste time repairing the damage/shields they have lost during the fight.
I have learned from experience that there is no point trying to finish off a beaten Pe with such a char because it is more likely to lead to you own death. If you want to simply tell me I suck for not healing because I instead tried to prevent you escape thats fine also.
.
.
.
I have made these points quite clearly , despite childish attempts by a certain Pe to shout them down with claims that every literally single person in the game who dies to a PE simply does so because I suck. Its honestly quite amusing to get a dm from a PE in Crp saying "lolz I just killed 6 different ppl at CRP, its all your fault because you suck , rofl" when I was in the UG all the time /boggle
Anyway , if thats how you wish to behave , thats fine , just remember thats exactly how the pre-nerf hybrids used to behave also . Back in the days before they had to change their sigs to read :
"I got the hybrids nerfed cos I was so good at one, and everyone else sucked so bad"
Jesterthegreat
05-08-05, 18:19
/shrug
If you want to claim I whine when I die thats fine, however I have never once even bothered to reply to his childish DMs in game. And have even made a point of ignoring Buggs attempts to derail my PPU-hyb spells thread with his same antics there. whenever i fought bugs i never got any immature or offensive DM's from him. but ok.
All I have done in this thread, Is provided feedback on the several aspects of conflict vs Pe stealth. thats the thing... you are complaining about PE stealth, when its stealth in general thats the issue
I have simply pointed out that Attack based chars who can beat a PE in the first round of fighting, lack the defense to survive a "second-wind" return of a stealthed PE they have just beaten , if you wish to childishly claim that thats just my fault for sucking thats fine. But pls explain to me why I see it happen to multiple Apus, tanks , spys who run off to chase down beaten pes in crp. Or do they all just suck also ? if theres a pe who you cannot beat on fair terms... he is better than you. i know APU's who are damned good solo. i remember dueling thanatos APU alot... and i lost a fair few times to him.
I have also pointed out how hybrids (barring the overpowered Multi-lightning blessed hybrid which is a special case deserving of its own nerf) cannot effectively pursue a beaten PE either due to the need to waste time repairing the damage/shields they have lost during the fight. PE's rely on s/d as much as monks do. there are various AoE spells available for a hyb. however... once again... this is a stealth issue, not a PE issue.
I have learned from experience that there is no point trying to finish off a beaten Pe with such a char because it is more likely to lead to you own death. If you want to simply tell me I suck for not healing because I instead tried to prevent you escape thats fine also. i havent said you suck once... i dont know what you're low self esteem is about. anyway... following someone you think can fight back, without healing and without re s/ding is stupid. it would be stupid if a pe did it to a spy, it would be stupid if a blessed hyb did it to a pe... the idea of following someone in a severley weakoned state is stupid.
I have made these points quite clearly , despite childish attempts by a certain Pe to shout them down with claims that every literally single person in the game who dies to a PE simply does so because I suck. Its honestly quite amusing to get a dm from a PE in Crp saying "lolz I just killed 6 different ppl at CRP, its all your fault because you suck , rofl" when I was in the UG all the time /boggle your "clear" points are aimed at the wrong thing. you have showed alot of the issues with stealth, and as stealth issues i agree with them. however they are issues with anyone with the ability to stealth.
Anyway , if thats how you wish to behave , thats fine , just remember thats exactly how the pre-nerf hybrids used to behave also . Back in the days before they had to change their sigs to read : you know what? when i see a PE facing an army of 10 good people... and never getting below half health, i will fully support a "nerf PE's" movement. ok?
right now i see how stealth effects the game, and how ppu's affect the game. ppu's and stealth are 2 things that i think need addressing for that very reason. note: i have a 90 base psi ppu and 2 PE's with stealth. despite that i feel stealth and ppu's need looking at.
"I got the hybrids nerfed cos I was so good at one, and everyone else sucked so bad"
that was just a rather large ego'd fellow
Wow just lol wtf is this ...
Mind I do agree stealth needs looking at but if they nerf the stealth then they must also nerf it for both classes spy and PE. There are alot more PE's now and some of them are getting good at playing them and what happens ... People cry on the forums. Well fuck me I'm not happy that a monk can get same resists as my PE less hitpoints and use blessed deflector, shelter, and DB with a Holylighting thats does the same as a capped one when used with DB. I'm not happy about getting Parra shocked constantly and having to spend over 100k in anti stuns, I may aswell whine about the blessed hybrids using posion stacks on me till I die because there so fucking hard to kill.
:rolleyes:
Bugs Gunny
05-08-05, 19:08
So revealing my constitution setup is a con attempt now?
*sigh*
I've given you tips in dm, i've given you tips in your posts about spells.
When i say you suck, it's because you do not play your class like you should. You don't defend the attackers near you, you concentrate on trying your too low tl offensive spells on me and even forget to heal yourself.
Also your quote is a "tad" far off, take out of context and clearly shows a high level of frustration.
If you are so annoyed about being killed at crp, there's a lot of other sectors where you can go level in peace.
If you ever decide to make an "overpowered" pe, ask me and i'll give you tips on a setup so we can duel in a "fair" fight.
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 20:03
So revealing my constitution setup is a con attempt now?
No , but revealing that combat PEs spec zero poison in order to magnify their overall survivability is exposing as a con the claims by fellow PEs that the only difference between them and spies is 60 poison resist points.
And , boasting again about a combat PE killing 2 hybrids 2 apus and a tank with the help of Mr jones, and then hacking all their belts , before Mr jones kindly lets him escape retaliation , is also revealing as a con your own claim made earlier in this thread that combat PEs cant hack.
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 20:17
Wow just lol wtf is this ...
Mind I do agree stealth needs looking at but if they nerf the stealth then they must also nerf it for both classes spy and PE. There are alot more PE's now and some of them are getting good at playing them and what happens ... People cry on the forums. Well fuck me I'm not happy that a monk can get same resists as my PE less hitpoints and use blessed deflector, shelter, and DB with a Holylighting thats does the same as a capped one when used with DB. I'm not happy about getting Parra shocked constantly and having to spend over 100k in anti stuns, I may aswell whine about the blessed hybrids using posion stacks on me till I die because there so fucking hard to kill.
:rolleyes:
Lil T, this would not have turned out like this if Buggs could have just kept his ego to himself and concetrated on the relevant points made, instead of trying to just shoot valid points down by insults.
Seriously, I make valid points about underpowered attack spells not having the ability to drop a stealther before he escape, and his response is basically "you suck for trying to use them sucky spells"
Its not like I dont know they suck, In fact my point was all about how much they suck. My point was that in order to have attack spells that "dont suck" you lose too much defense , unless you are an overpowered blessed.
My point was also that the attack classes who do have the damage, dont have the defense to stand up to the second-wind PE , so when they split up different ways trying to find him they each end up dead one by one....and his response again is basically that I suck for not being able to run 5 different ways at once and heal and shield 5 different ppl in 5 different locations at the same time ? /shrug
And my point was also that if you wish to solo persue a beaten PE without losing the trail before he reheals, you dont have time to reheal reshield effectively otherwise you have lost the trail. And again his response is that I suck for not stopping to reheal and reshield and let him escape.
/shrug
Bugs Gunny
05-08-05, 20:19
I'm gonna stop replying. Just get a skillmanager and try making a HT pe that uses damageboost, tl10 heal has runspeed, gets good stats on his weapon and the godlike con setup you talk about. You CAN'T.
A hacking HT pe is a PSI GIMPED one.
And if anything should be nerfed it's the godlike hybrids. (the ones that know how to play them) I've gone in against a good one with two inq stup spies and he killed all three of us.
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 20:24
And if anything should be nerfed it's the godlike hybrids.
Well I can agree with you on this.
Right a PE's main role as a small arms user is too harrass the enemy, your team splitting up is exactly what the PE is about same goes for spy infact. A PE beleave it or not will have a very hard time dealing with more than one target, provided those targets have got any sort of skill... Splitting up and ending up dead is just what the raider wants because he knows he does not have a chance when faced with 3 - 4 people. What your basicly saying is PE's should not be able to escape your gank sqaud and thats its ok for spys to stealth whore around.
Jesterthegreat
05-08-05, 20:30
Lil T, this would not have turned out like this if Buggs could have just kept his ego to himself and concetrated on the relevant points made, instead of trying to just shoot valid points down by insults.
Seriously, I make valid points about underpowered attack spells not having the ability to drop a stealther before he escape, and his response is basically "you suck for trying to use them sucky spells"
Its not like I dont know they suck, In fact my point was all about how much they suck. My point was that in order to have attack spells that "dont suck" you lose too much defense , unless you are an overpowered blessed.
My point was also that the attack classes who do have the damage, dont have the defense to stand up to the second-wind PE , so when they split up different ways trying to find him they each end up dead one by one....and his response again is basically that I suck for not being able to run 5 different ways at once and heal and shield 5 different ppl in 5 different locations at the same time ? /shrug
And my point was also that if you wish to solo persue a beaten PE without losing the trail before he reheals, you dont have time to reheal reshield effectively otherwise you have lost the trail. And again his response is that I suck for not stopping to reheal and reshield and let him escape.
/shrug
ok... lets do a quick comparison.
what TL spell are you casting in him mr. hybrid man?
are you suprised it does less damage than his tl 113 weapon?
and (regarding an earlier post, and to a lesser extent this one) if you think current PE's are overpowered like HH / HS / HD / HL hybs used to be... you are beyond all forms of help.
you died to a PE? a group of people hunting died to a PE? well thats unfotunate.
there isnt a single class in the game that hasn't kkilled me at least once.
however you are a hybrid. i try not to bitch about the current hybs. they are too powerful, but its not as game breaking as other issues.
a blessed hyb has better defences than a PE and similar offence.
i bet i could lose to a 0/2 melee spy if i put my mind to it... it wouldnt make melee spies overpowered... it would mean i tried to die / made alot of stupid mistakes.
stealth needs to be fixed full stop. if it is altered, then taken away from PE's... i can live with that. the important thing is it stops being an instant LE button for everyone who uses it.
you wanna debate PE's? join the "should PE's have access to high level rares" or the "should PE's have access to DB" contriversies.
maybe PE's dont need stealth. however they need it no less than spies. its a universal issues.. regardless of which class killed you recently.
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 21:06
ok... lets do a quick comparison.
what TL spell are you casting in him mr. hybrid man?
Well , heres what I have tested since returning to NC few weeks ago, and basically lomming every day.
(1)Holy PPU/74 apu hyb with poke and hack. Nrg halo + holy ppu defense.
Main issues were cast freq on the holy ppu stuff due to low psi use , it was kinda embarassing to have a PE watch you start to cast Holy heal at pitiful freq, then laugh and cast a nib heal so much faster that you basically forught the entire fight with tl3 heal+ holy heal sanctum
(2)Standard APU hyb with just poke
This was pretty a fun char , can solo vs mobs very well, and good at op wars or in teams with ppu support. Solo vs stealthers it could win vs Spies when you got the drop on them in time to get off 3 FAs before they stealthed. Vs Pes it generally couldnt due to their improved shelter abilities.
(3)Standard Blessed hyb with just poke
Bit too overpowered for my taste, Psi attack 2 etc ,Holy Firelance,Toxic Halo , along with Blessed Ppu stuff. However to really win duels it had to rely on multi lightning bolt spam which tbh is just too cheesy for me.
(4) Semi-Holy PPU/90 Apu with just poke
Using APU 90 nrg lance , and PPU pa switch for lvl 3 buffs , its attack is very weak and the tl 28 psi attack 1 seemed to do more dmg then the holy nrg lance.
Which lead to the current setup below (almost the same as the first cept for tweaks to Psi setup/Imps and the much improved Freq on holy stuff):
(5) Holy PPU/74 Apu with poke.
Using tl 28 Psi attack and tl 19 firelance, its a fun setup with the ability to add Ppu Pa when you want to function as an amost pure PPU role. Cant really kill anyone solo, but can inflict some damage and at least make the opponent use up his anti db drugs while hes breaking your armor so the financial costs work out about the same on both sides during a standoff. It can possibly even kill a PE provided he sticks around and lets your TL 93 soulcluster whack at him. Worst thing is the 98 combat rank which screws up lvling , but hes almost capped int already so not that much of an issue, unless WOc psi ever gets introduced.
Hes still waiting on some more Apu spells to test out however but I doubt he will ever be in the overpowered hyb class, nor do I want him there.
(He is however I regret slightly overpowered vs solo tanks unless they attempt to run before they have lost half health ,which needs looking at and could likely be fixed by removal of Para from the game.)
Jesterthegreat
05-08-05, 21:34
Well , heres what I have tested since returning to NC few weeks ago, and basically lomming every day.
(1)Holy PPU/74 apu hyb with poke and hack. Nrg halo + holy ppu defense.
Main issues were cast freq on the holy ppu stuff due to low psi use , it was kinda embarassing to have a PE watch you start to cast Holy heal at pitiful freq, then laugh and cast a nib heal so much faster that you basically forught the entire fight with tl3 heal+ holy heal sanctum
(2)Standard APU hyb with just poke
This was pretty a fun char , can solo vs mobs very well, and good at op wars or in teams with ppu support. Solo vs stealthers it could win vs Spies when you got the drop on them in time to get off 3 FAs before they stealthed. Vs Pes it generally couldnt due to their improved shelter abilities.
(3)Standard Blessed hyb with just poke
Bit too overpowered for my taste, Psi attack 2 etc ,Holy Firelance,Toxic Halo , along with Blessed Ppu stuff. However to really win duels it had to rely on multi lightning bolt spam which tbh is just too cheesy for me.
(4) Semi-Holy PPU/90 Apu with just poke
Using APU 90 nrg lance , and PPU pa switch for lvl 3 buffs , its attack is very weak and the tl 28 psi attack 1 seemed to do more dmg then the holy nrg lance.
Which lead to the current setup below (almost the same as the first cept for tweaks to Psi setup/Imps and the much improved Freq on holy stuff):
(5) Holy PPU/74 Apu with poke.
Using tl 28 Psi attack and tl 19 firelance, its a fun setup with the ability to add Ppu Pa when you want to function as an amost pure PPU role. Cant really kill anyone solo, but can inflict some damage and at least make the opponent use up his anti db drugs while hes breaking your armor so the financial costs work out about the same on both sides during a standoff. It can possibly even kill a PE provided he sticks around and lets your TL 93 soulcluster whack at him. Worst thing is the 98 combat rank which screws up lvling , but hes almost capped int already so not that much of an issue, unless WOc psi ever gets introduced.
Hes still waiting on some more Apu spells to test out however but I doubt he will ever be in the overpowered hyb class, nor do I want him there.
(He is however I regret slightly overpowered vs solo tanks unless they attempt to run before they have lost half health ,which needs looking at and could likely be fixed by removal of Para from the game.)
the highest offensive spell you use is tl28... and you dont do damage comparable to a tl 113 pistol? :rolleyes:
tell ya what... try Holy Lightning Bolt. seemed fun, and did damage.
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 21:40
the highest offensive spell you use is tl28... and you dont do damage comparable to a tl 113 pistol? :rolleyes:
tell ya what... try Holy Lightning Bolt. seemed fun, and did damage.
I'm actually waiting on one of those to be built atm to test it properly, in fact I did actually ask specifically about that spell in my PPU-hyb thread , but unfortunately buggs decided to derail that thread on me in the same way as here :(
Bugs Gunny
05-08-05, 21:57
Did a quick run at crp. 3v1 (two capped spies and an apu. slasher hl and holy lighting). 3dead.
Spies are overpowered?
Lifewaster
05-08-05, 22:05
Did a quick run at crp. 3v1 (two capped spies and an apu. slasher hl and holy lighting). 3dead.
Spies are overpowered?
Grats, want cookie ?
Asurmen Spec Op
05-08-05, 22:57
Ok, Since Im not going to waste my time having a good reply
Its not PE life its Stealth
Honestly if you want to BULLSHIT around the point I will make you a few setups as an idea, A spy can do it BETTER then a PE. PEs stealth is 10 seconds, how about an obliterator!?
This Argument is worth then 10year olds going for porn ffs
Lifewaster
Since everyone is having a bash at you about you lack of offensive etc, if your a blessed hybrid which I assume your are by the spells you use. Against PE's try healing and alot your heal will keep you alive a PE will do nothing to you or should not as long as you heal. Use posion attacks they stack and they take a while but after a while you get over 10 stacks on a PE or spy they are fucked no ammount of posion resist will save them. Even if they stealth they will die if there not within a zoneline, try it you will see ^^ posion fucks my PE and I have 60 posion. If a monk uses posion I run away and never come back, well most of the time.
Ok, Since Im not going to waste my time having a good reply
Its not PE life its Stealth
Honestly if you want to BULLSHIT around the point I will make you a few setups as an idea, A spy can do it BETTER then a PE. PEs stealth is 10 seconds, how about an obliterator!?
This Argument is worth then 10year olds going for porn ffs
Exactly I know if I could be bothered to lvl a pistol spy to cap I would destroy people with that slasher and have good resist. It would be great having a stealth that lets me go AFK and make a cup of coffie but I simply can't be bothered to cap my pistol spy.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 01:45
Well, so far the Truesight Hybrid is turning out to be a success versus Spies at least if not versus PEs.
In fact , only a short time ago, a pro Spy attempted to mimic the PEs antics of running around 12+ players at Crp , the usualy routine, in and out of gogo room, destealth, pop a Db on someone , restealth , run around a bit more ,soaking up the few hits taken with the superior PE con and healing, destealth , kill the DBed target, restealth , repeat etc , etc.
Only, somehow it didnt work , somehow the Spy was taking much more damage then the PE used to , somehow the spy wasnt able to Db, for some strange reason the spy didnt even manage to kill one runner , nor did he even survive more then 30 seconds in total.
In fact the spy died, on very his first circuit , running out of the gogo room at very low hlt he restealthed , only to be caught and killed , by the ppu's truesight which he claims doesnt work, and the ppus tl 28 attack spell which he claims does no damage...
And yes , the spy was buggs.....
Draw your own conclusions.
Bugs Gunny
06-08-05, 02:02
You forgot to mention how many other people were there shooting me and how low your health was :-)
But true... you had tss, i was db'ed and had at least 5 people shooting me.
Congratulations.. you got me, no need to change your setup :-)
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 02:11
You forgot to mention how many other people were there shooting me and how low your health was :-)
Oh yes sorry, I forgot to mention that , normally the PEs come and do this solo vs 12+ , but in this case the Spy actually had the help of 2 or 3 more Pro runners during the start of the fight, to give him an even greater chance of mimicing the PEs endeavours.
So ya , Stealth Spies , Stealth Pes ....totally different in the whole overpowered/underpowered debate regarding stealth use.
meh all this whining about pe's when all the good ones quit :/
Its like ally pk'n, people dont realise they were born :D
Asurmen Spec Op
06-08-05, 03:45
Ok life, I need to ask you, How do you think that PEs outclass spys?
Runspeed? fuck you must be joking I can make a Spy who caps a Slasher whos faster then my PE with about the same resists, I take 3total drugs and I am higher then most PEs.Any Person going into the same situiation as bugs would die, a PE would go just as fast DBed and not able to stealth.
And almost every class can attack Stealthers, I have tested and judge does do some dmg to stealther, it may not be much but I can fry legs in about 5-6 hits. Tanks well. AOE go booom. APUs just laugh at you. Hybrids will kill stealthers nice and fast. I think the FL does damage to stealthers.
They are as much of a portable LE as a fucking ppu.
Bugs Gunny
06-08-05, 04:09
So this encounter proved what exactly?
That a damageboosted spy being shot by 5 people while he keeps attacking a ppu hybrid with TSS, taking him down to half health before he dies has a con setup worse than a pe?
You sir, have NO idea whatsoever about setups for spies or pes, nor hybrids for that matter.
All you do is complain about getting killed and me being a "griefer" because i play this game as it should be played.
Nobody told you to remove your le and go level at the most popular raiding spot.
You also seem to take things a tad personal, which is the main reason why everyone likes to kill you first. Nothing beats dropping someone that gets mad.
Now that's my final word on this, as it's a thread about pes and stealth and not our personal differences :D
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 04:33
So this encounter proved what exactly?
That a damageboosted spy being shot by 5 people while he keeps attacking a ppu hybrid with TSS, taking him down to half health before he dies has a con setup worse than a pe?
Yes, thats exactly what it does it does, I've seen good Pes such as Cassad perform exactly what your spy failed to do , in fact he managed to kill several ppl before leaving unscathed, and he actually had 12 ppl after him, not just 5, and it also highlights how much weaker a capped spys attack actually is vs ppl who have not been DBed .
ps:
Maybe you can also let the ppl know how the same spy attempted to infilitate the caves afterwards, and died twice versus a mid lvl melee tank.
Before finally giving up the spy and logging onto a Jones PE to go in and successfully kill them and hack their belts.
Asurmen Spec Op
06-08-05, 04:43
I've seen good Pes such as Cassad perform exactly what your spy failed to do
Ah yes Casaad, hes pretty good, however Ive forced him to run off solo a few times. I saw you "fighting" him.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 04:51
Ah yes Casaad, hes pretty good, however Ive forced him to run off solo a few times. I saw you "fighting" him.
Ye hes pretty cool, its always fun when he comes to pk , hes sporting about it and he comes for the fights, not just to grief lvlers in the cave, and if he kills you , you dont get insulting dms right away afterwards. We always try to give him a res if we ever do manage to kill him which is rare I admit.
Too bad hes busy getting woc atm though.
Asurmen Spec Op
06-08-05, 04:53
Too bad hes busy getting woc atm though.
Ill beat his ass to it <.<
Bugs Gunny
06-08-05, 04:56
Only because i told you where to level :-)
You silly pe, leveling in a rhino till woc........You would have gotten STR woc before you got DEX.
What are you at right now btw? So i can tell casaad that he needs to hurry.
Asurmen Spec Op
06-08-05, 05:19
Only because i told you where to level :-)
You silly pe, leveling in a rhino till woc........You would have gotten STR woc before you got DEX.
What are you at right now btw? So i can tell casaad that he needs to hurry.
Stop it damnit let me atleast get something special <.<
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 11:25
By the way , all you PE/Skillmanager users .
Skillmanager resist figures mean jack. There is no comparision between the durability of a PE and that of a Spy , despite whatever skillmanager says.
Resists have been bugged in this game since day 1 , there are so many different factors involved :
Lag
Amount of different runners hitting
Weapon types of runners hitting
Ammo mods of those weapons
Current Con Lvl
Current Implant resist score
Current Skill resist score
Current Armor resist score
Current lvl of Shelter
Current lvl of Deflector
Your Total HP score
Your current hp score
Damage boost
Getting good resists on your setup involves time and testing in the field, sometimes its better with a few less points in a resist skill , or a few more HP points , or a different resist implant setup, or a different armor setup ...and this applies differently to every different dmg type you encounter.
Damage boost also has a huge effect , often throwing setups totally awry due to its effect on these resist scores.
Overall Current con lvl plays a big role in the "Optimal threshold" of how much is better in armor or in skill , higher con lvl allows far more leeway against imbalances that would otherwise lead to huge damage.
The hardest class to optimise resists for is the spy due to lowest con , next hardest is Monk....a Spy will never have the durability of a PE despite the best efforts of skillmanager to claim it thus.
Monks rely on shelter and deflector to cover for major imbalances in their setups , and very few Apus have anything close to an optimal setup while unsheltered, in fact if they did that would throw out the window what was a good setup for when sheltered.
Its very , very easy to get good resists on a PE , not so with a Spy.
If you still dont believe it, then take your skillmanager created Spy, and PE , whom you "think" have the same resists . Get them to stand still in front of 5-6 random attackers , then watch as the Spy dies three times faster.
Then do it again with DB on them, and see how the Spy now dies four or five times faster due to the effect of DB on resists.
[edit]
One analogy of the effect of DB would be that it reduces Con lvl and resist lvls by 30. So a Dbed Tank becomes a 70 con setup , a DBed PE becomes a 40 con setup, a Dbed Monk becomes a 20-30 con setup and a Dbed spy becomes a 20 con setup. ....with the damage and optimal resists threshhold suddenly dropping to that lvl, the overall effect is that Spies are extremely vulnerable while Dbed , Monks drop to Spy lvl not so vulnerable, PEs drop to monk lvl still pretty invulnerable as long as resists are setup ok, and tanks drop to PE lvl.
In fact optimal resists seem to occur at about 40+ con lvl , which means that both Tanks and PEs still manage to maintain optimals even after DB , and the tanks own con advantage over the PE is really only useful to pump into Athletics , whilst the PE dex advantage for agility nullifies this in any case.
By the way , all you PE/Skillmanager users .
Skillmanager resist figures mean jack. There is no comparision between the durability of a PE and that of a Spy , despite whatever skillmanager says.
Resists have been bugged in this game since day 1 , there are so many different factors involved :
Lag
Amount of different runners hitting
Weapon types of runners hitting
Ammo mods of those weapons
Current Con Lvl
Current Implant resist score
Current Armor resist score
Current lvl of Shelter
Current lvl of Deflector
Your Total HP score
Your current hp score
Damage boost
Getting good resists on your setup involves time and testing in the field, sometimes its better with a few less points in a resist skill , or a few more HP points , or a different resist implant setup, or a different armor setup ...and this applies differently to every different dmg type you encounter.
Damage boost also has a huge effect , often throwing setups totally awry due to its effect on these resist scores.
Overall Current con lvl plays a big role in the "Optimal threshold" of how much is better in armor or in skill , higher con lvl allows far more leeway against imbalances that would otherwise lead to huge damage.
The hardest class to optimise resists for is the spy due to lowest con , next hardest is Monk....a Spy will never have the durability of a PE despite the best efforts of skillmanager to claim it thus.
Monks rely on shelter and deflector to cover for major imbalances in their setups , and very few Apus have anything close to an optimal setup while unsheltered, in fact if they did that would throw out the window what was a good setup for when sheltered.
Its very , very easy to get good resists on a PE , not so with a Spy.
If you still dont believe it, then take your skillmanager created Spy, and PE , whom you "think" have the same resists . Get them to stand still in front of 5-6 random attackers , then watch as the Spy dies three times faster.
Then do it again with DB on them, and see how the Spy now dies four or five times faster due to the effect of DB on resists.
[edit]
One analogy of the effect of DB would be that it reduces Con lvl and resist lvls by 30. So a Dbed Tank becomes a 70 con setup , a DBed PE becomes a 40 con setup, a Dbed Monk becomes a 20-30 con setup and a Dbed spy becomes a 20 con setup. ....with the damage and optimal resists threshhold suddenly dropping to that lvl, the overall effect is that Spies are extremely vulnerable while Dbed , Monks drop to Spy lvl not so vulnerable, PEs drop to monk lvl still pretty invulnerable as long as resists are setup ok, and tanks drop to PE lvl.
I never look at the skill manager when working with resists, I do that stuff natural resist x 0.9 + armour etc. Testing in the field is slow but can get you a good setup, however once you know how it all works testing in the field looks like a simple guessing game. Thats all it is a guessing game, I don't do guessing I work my resists and body health to max with balance, balance meaning damage taken and ammount of hitpoints I have. Its not about how much damage you take its about how many hits of the same damage you will take befor you end up dead and that is based on hitpoints +resist.
Resists are not bugged the only resist that was bugged was resist force which made libby and other force based weapons overpowered. Mind I maybe wrong about the resist force thing but there was alot of people saying it was bugged ! Again resists are not bugged, it is you that is bugged and failing to see how it all works and it is you that sucks not us thank you..
oh please, this is becoming boring really...
slasher PE is overpowered because if i kill a slasher PE it means i'm fucking uber...
oh please, this is becoming boring really...
slasher PE is overpowered because if i kill a slasher PE it means i'm fucking uber...
No you are wrong slasher PE can be beaten using anti damage boost pills and DBing him at the same time, yes he will do damage and lots but he is easly beaten. Why ? because his run speed sucks his PSI sucks and he takes so many drugs oh and his resist must suck too, I can't see much difference from the slasher PE and the slasher spy. Only thing is the PE version can damage boost but thats easy to combat, PE's don't have the insane mana or cast freqence as the PPU. Also a spy can stealth for much much longer with the same defence but faster run speed and less gimpage.
No you are wrong slasher PE can be beaten using anti damage boost pills and DBing him at the same time, yes he will do damage and lots but he is easly beaten. Why ? because his run speed sucks his PSI sucks and he takes so many drugs oh and his resist must suck too, I can't see much difference from the slasher PE and the slasher spy. Only thing is the PE version can damage boost but thats easy to combat, PE's don't have the insane mana or cast freqence as the PPU. Also a spy can stealth for much much longer with the same defence but faster run speed and less gimpage.
bah it was ironic Lil T, i play slasher spy atm so i usually (ehm, usually ;) ) kill slasher PEs without much problems, hence my statement.
/edit/
end if anything is overpowered here its a slasher itself... at least when compared to equal tl rifles.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 12:22
I never look at the skill manager when working with resists, I do that stuff natural resist x 0.9 + armour etc. Testing in the field is slow but can get you a good setup, however once you know how it all works testing in the field looks like a simple guessing game. Thats all it is a guessing game, I don't do guessing I work my resists and body health to max with balance, balance meaning damage taken and ammount of hitpoints I have. Its not about how much damage you take its about how many hits of the same damage you will take befor you end up dead and that is based on hitpoints +resist.
Like I said, thats easy to do on a Pe since all your resist skills (bar poison) are 50+ anyway
However , introduce DB and other classes who thought they had the same resists are suddenly screwed.
For example:
PE and Spy vs Energy/Xray weapons
Lets say PE has 70 skill and 90 armor , overall 150 resist , con factor 70
Lets say Spy has 0 skill and 150 armor , overall 150 resist , con factor 40
They both take hits, on skillmanager they have the same resist, but the con factor of 40 means the Spy takes more damage.
Now add Damage boost effects :
PE now has 40 skill , 50 armor , overall 90 resist , con factor 50
Spy now has -30 skill , 120 armor , overall 90 resist ,con factor 10
They both take hits again , on skillmanager they still have the same resist , but this time the con factor of 10 , and the -30 skill , now means the Spy now is taking hugely more damage.
This is also why Dbed monks can at times receive such huge damage from HL despite the monks huge energy armors. In order to prevent this, a Monk needs at least 30+ Resist energy skill , and/ot a heat resist buff.
..
..
..
Anyway, test it yourself as I said if you still dont believe that a Spy will die far faster then a PE.
Asurmen Spec Op
06-08-05, 12:22
bah it was ironic Lil T, i play slasher spy atm so i usually (ehm, usually ;) ) kill slasher PEs without much problems, hence my statement.
/edit/
end if anything is overpowered here its a slasher itself... at least when compared to equal tl rifles.
I still have a personal preference of the exec.
and btw sarcasm doesnt go on the forum to well, I have learned this the hard way
edit:
Skill > stats
Original monk
06-08-05, 12:26
lol
you win some you loose some :)
bah it was ironic Lil T, i play slasher spy atm so i usually (ehm, usually ;) ) kill slasher PEs without much problems, hence my statement.
Slasher PE is good but its not overpowered, remeber the PE can do alot but not as good as the pure classes. You want to murder people with the slasher .. and you will. Use a pistol spy you don't need drugs to use the weapon and will cap it easy, if you don't your an idoit. The only thing that I can see on the slasher PE setup that could be looked at is damage boost. But as I said damage boost is easly combated, just carry at least 12 - 15 anti DB drugs, if you take them constantly most PE's won't bother DBing you.
bah it was ironic Lil T, i play slasher spy atm so i usually (ehm, usually ;) ) kill slasher PEs without much problems, hence my statement.
/edit/
end if anything is overpowered here its a slasher itself... at least when compared to equal tl rifles.
oh sorry thought then ugh .... :(
end if anything is overpowered here its a slasher itself... at least when compared to equal tl rifles.
erggg i think Healing light is not a bug/lag free weapon, and the damages of this weapon are not normal :rolleyes:
erggg i think Healing light is not a bug/lag free weapon, and the damages of this weapon are not normal :rolleyes:
Aye HL does more dmg than higher tl rifles, true. And its bugged as well.
however
Slasher does more dmg than any other weapon in this game (aside Holy lightning maybe, dunno) and has its own bugs too.
erggg i think Healing light is not a bug/lag free weapon, and the damages of this weapon are not normal :rolleyes:
Healing light is nasty but so is its TL, I dueled a HL spy yesterday and lost the fight but only just, it was a close fight. It was overpowered but now its just right its does more damage than slasher I think which is right and balanced
Slasher does more dmg than any other weapon in this game (aside Holy lightning maybe, dunno) and has its own bugs too.
errr no.
tested on the same tank, same armor :
Healing lights >>> dead in 8 shots
Slasher >>> dead in 11 shots
(a funny thing : Judge >>> dead in 25 shots :lol: )
but i agree with you : Laser weapons are bugged as hell. (that's why i only use plasma :D )
errr no.
tested on the same tank, same armor :
Healing lights >>> dead in 8 shots
Slasher >>> dead in 11 shots
(a funny thing : Judge >>> dead in 25 shots :lol: )
but i agree with you : Laser weapons are bugged as hell. (that's why i only use plasma :D )
well, if its 8 shots vs 11 shots then uhm :lol: with slasher frequency its like 5 seconds vs 2 seconds with slasher :p
errr no.
tested on the same tank, same armor :
Healing lights >>> dead in 8 shots
Slasher >>> dead in 11 shots
(a funny thing : Judge >>> dead in 25 shots :lol: )
but i agree with you : Laser weapons are bugged as hell. (that's why i only use plasma :D )
But slasher's freq if far higher than HeLi...
What needs fixing about all laserbeams is the laggy damage (its just plain stupid) and the fact that the beam doesnt show up at range.
well, if its 8 shots vs 11 shots then uhm :lol: with slasher frequency its like 5 seconds vs 2 seconds with slasher :p
Yeah ok, but you need more aim with slasher than with HL. If you shoot with the caped frequency (let your finger on the "click" from the mouse :D ) you will probably miss shots. Healing L frequency is just perfect for a normal player to re-aim after one shot. so you can't miss.
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 12:53
life... you really are showing your ignorance in every post.
note the lack of people agreeing and jumpping in saying (with a straight face) "yeah PEs are overpowered".
maybe you have no idea how to set up a PE (as you think its so amazingly easy to hack all belts and cap a slasher... while having "overpowered" resists) or a spy (as you seem to think they have stupidly low resists and need stealth to survive)... but that doesnt mean shit.
you know what? i was a shitty APU. i sucked at it. i'm a fairly shitty PPU too.
however my PE was listed by multiple people as "best pistol PE" in the last PvP rating thread i saw... my PE won the first (and only) of those ranked tornis that kayne arranged.
does this mean monks are underpowered since i sucked using them but did alot better with PE's?
Yeah ok, but you need more aim with slasher than with HL. If you shoot with the caped frequency (let your finger on the "click" from the mouse :D ) you will probably miss shots. Healing L frequency is just perfect for a normal player to re-aim after one shot. so you can't miss.
hehehe, if u really believe that we have to meet for a duel again :) you'll see the difference between HL and slasher. Of course, it may be just a personal preference of some kind, but i find slasher ALOT easier to aim than any rifle i ever used (and i used all obviously).
Rifles are great for a ranged combat, but no match for slasher in close combat (dargshead if u read this thread, shut up, you dont count :lol: )
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 12:58
alot of its play style.
i have never been able to aim properly with any of the automatic pistols... one of the main reasons i prefered a wyatt to a lib when low tech.
hehehe, if u really believe that we have to meet for a duel again :) you'll see the difference between HL and slasher. Of course, it may be just a personal preference of some kind, but i find slasher ALOT easier to aim than any rifle i ever used (and i used all obviously).
maybe i find rifles so easy to aim because i was only HC tank for now :rolleyes:
I always compare a rifle spy / PE to a HC tank...and take the bonus / malus from a PE with HL and a tank. Thats maybe the reason why i think that healing light is a bit overpowered. But i have to test healing light, i only tested first love (wich is easy to aim, to me)
alot of its play style.
i have never been able to aim properly with any of the automatic pistols... one of the main reasons i prefered a wyatt to a lib when low tech.
So you would be better with a Healing L, due to the re-aim thing.
Ok now my "whine" is over i go play with my plasma toys. :rolleyes:
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 13:08
So you would be better with a Healing L, due to the re-aim thing.
Ok now my "whine" is over i go play with my plasma toys. :rolleyes:
i prefer my judge.
always meant to try a HL but never bothered.
that said i have a fully capped rifle PE with an SA in his head which is setup for a tsu rifle atm... if i felt the urge to play again i would prolly lom him to HL.
Dargeshaad
06-08-05, 13:15
i prefer my judge.
always meant to try a HL but never bothered.
that said i have a fully capped rifle PE with an SA in his head which is setup for a tsu rifle atm... if i felt the urge to play again i would prolly lom him to HL.
Why in the world would you want a SA in the head of a TSU rifle PE? 8|
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 13:22
Why in the world would you want a SA in the head of a TSU rifle PE? 8|
cos i had one... and i couldnt be bothered to lom him :p
think i used it instead of an SF. theres better chips to use than sa + sf in low tech... i didnt do it totally wrong :p
:edit: out of my pistol PE (has an SA), PPU (has a DS) nib melee PE and low tech rifle PE... it was more use in the LT PE :p
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 13:25
life... you really are showing your ignorance in every post.
note the lack of people agreeing and jumpping in saying (with a straight face) "yeah PEs are overpowered".
maybe you have no idea how to set up a PE (as you think its so amazingly easy to hack all belts and cap a slasher... while having "overpowered" resists) or a spy (as you seem to think they have stupidly low resists and need stealth to survive)... but that doesnt mean shit.
Lack of ppl agreeing? Do you mean the PE flamers?
You think I'm bothered by random PEs popping in here to each tell me how much I suck and how skillful they each are?
Doesnt bother me in the slightest tbh, I can just continue to spell out the differences between Spies and Pes every time , its NP to me. (all you are achieving with these flames, is simply dragging out the thread even more and probably highlighting the problem to KK even moreso btw,,,,)
The bottom line is PEs dont need stealth in their current form, due to the differences between their and spys Con , their and spies shelter , their and spies DB or lack thereof..
Casaad has proved this , Buggs has proved it on his Pe, then inadvertently proved just how weak his spy was when he tried to do the exact same as Casaad with his spy instead.
Claims that PEs cant hack have been disproved , claims that PEs con only gives 60 more poison have been disproved. I can go on and on as long as it takes everytime , dont presume that flames or lack of agreement will have any effect.
I have talked to many "Real" spies (ie: not spies who have PE alts) inside the game , and they all agree with me also even if they are not being vocal here.
.
.
.
But hey, if yall want to ignore the points made, and assume that your PEs superior durability is purely down to your own skill , and some irrelevant figures from skillmanager, rather then the FACT that you have 20 more lvls of Con then a spy has thats fine.
Like I have said over and over, take your Uber Spy setup, place him standing alongside an Uber PE setup , get 6 various damage type runners to shoot them each down , and you will see for yourself.
Then do it again with Db on them, and see how the difference is even more pronounced. Spies do indeed rely on skill to survive , while PEs get a lot more leeway thanks to Con.
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 13:37
ok... everyone agree's with you... they just dont want to admit it here :rolleyes:
if PE's are overpowered... where are the numeruos complaints such as the "nerf monks" threads?
as for stealth... PE's dont need it. nor do spies.
most of the good people from all classes have left. the ones that havent tend to have melted into the monk armies instead of playing their good chars.
as far as PE's go... the PE that i consider one of the best still playing... plays a monk every time i see him. he is also who i would consider the best spy playing...
since the majority of spies in the game rely on stealth rather than seting themselves up well... its hardly suprising the spies would want to keep stealth for them alone.
if we suggested making all weapons as strong as a holy lightning... i bet the first people to complain would be monks. (i'm not saying this would be a good idea at all... it would kill balance... just using it as an example).
heres how it really is:
advantages of a PE over a spy -
more health
more poison (you said yourself dont trust the numbers. how much difference do you think a little poison resist makes?)
DB
higher damage% on shelter
blessed def
advantages of a spy over a PE -
can hack without gimping
can poke without gimping
can use longer stealths
can cap weapons easier
dont look like scuba divers when using high tl weapons (:P)
now... you may dispute these facts... hell you may agree with them and point out theres more combat boni for a PE. either way... cap a PE (everyone knows anyone can cap a PE in 3 days... right? :rolleyes:) and fight a good spy.
unfortunatly the only 2 i can think of right now are spyware and kitsunex. and i dont know how in practise either are at playing spies.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 13:45
either way... cap a PE (everyone knows anyone can cap a PE in 3 days... right? :rolleyes:) and fight a good spy.
.
I've a better idea, how about you do like I suggested several times already, get your "good " spy , and yourself , then meet me and 5 other runners at crp sometime.
Then both of you stand still, and we will see how long it takes the 6 ppl to kill the spy, then how long it takes to kill you, and compare the differences.
Then we will res you both and do the same with DB on you.. and compare those differences.
Come and prove me wrong and I'll be quite happy to let this thread die.
ps: btw if you doubt my ability to withstand flames, or think this thread is bad, check out the PvP karma thread in the lineage2 boards sometime, I went to 28+ pages there with 8 different ppl flaming me until they each got themselves banned for abuse one by one :p
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 13:53
I've a better idea, how about you do like I suggested several times already, get your "good " spy , and yourself , then meet me and 5 other runners at crp sometime.
Then both of you stand still, and we will see how long it takes the 6 ppl to kill the spy, then how long it takes to kill you, and compare the differences.
Then we will res you both and do the same with DB on you.. and compare those differences.
Come and prove me wrong and I'll be quite happy to let this thread die.
if we do the same thing with a PE and a hyb or a PE and a PPU withh that prove anything?
will you admit that simple defence is one of many things that matters?
a spy has less health... i can tell you right now that he will die quicker (unless its an xray modded non-locational weapon... then i'm not sure who would die first... it would be close).
however i spy has more dex points to spread between rifle, tc and agility. a spy has (whether some people agree or not... i speak from my experiance and my tests) a smaller hit box. a spy is quicker and caps his weapon.
that and the fact that one of the main points of your whining is stealth... and you totally factor it out of this.
how about you do the same test on a PE spamming stealth and a spy spamming stealth? you will get more hits off on the PE as he appears more often. does this make spies overpowered?
simple defence is one factor in the PvPability of a class. and i have said spies get less health... so its a pointless test.
"i think this class is overpowered in combat compared to this other class"
"then how about testing it in a combat situation"
"no no no... lets test it in a totally unrealistic situation where you only test one small area of the classes.... that will prove it!"
:rolleyes:
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:01
how about you do the same test on a PE spamming stealth and a spy spamming stealth? you will get more hits off on the PE as he appears more often. does this make spies overpowered?
Hmm Jester, I really dont know if you just fail to understand the arguement at all .. /shrug
If you did go with a PE spamming stealth, and a Spy spamming stealth , you will see the Pe popping out of stealth, Dbing ppl, restealthing, popping back out , dropping the Dbed person, restealth, repeat. Sure we get more hits on the PE , but still not nearly enough to drop him, and nearly never won the race .....
However in the case of the Spy , none of the 6 runners are in anyway near as much danger of being dropped.
This is one of the points I have been making during the course of this debate. The PEs con allows him to absorb these small periods of damage, and his Db allows him to deal significant damage back during those moments.
A stealthing spy is on the defensive in these situations, a stealthing Pe is not , he is still just as offense capable as always.
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 14:11
ok... believe what you want... think PE's are more overpowered than anything we have ever seen...
i notice everyone else has got bored of disagreeing... sometimes a sarcastic "yes... thats right" is the best way to finish a discussion.
i take it all back. spies suck, pe's are overpowered... the cap all weapons and hack all belts.
spies cant spec resists at all and spy only stealths are bugged and you take 5x normal damage while in stealth.
oh and all PE's cheat.
done.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:15
will you admit that simple defence is one of many things that matters?
Simple Con defense is the single most important thing that matters in fact in these situations. With 5+ runners shooting at you, no amount of skill or dodging is going to save you, the only thing that matters then will be your con and your resists/armor setup ......as bugs in fact found out himself on his spy only last night.
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 14:17
Simple Con defense is the single most important thing that matters in fact in these situations. With 5+ runners shooting at you, no amount of skill or dodging is going to save you , the only thing that matters will be your con and your resists/armor setup ......as bugs in fact found out himself on his spy only last night.
as i said... you show more ignorance with each post.
"simple con defence" is not the most important thing at all.
know what?
my PE had lower resists all around than most. funny how he was suggested by multiple people as best pistol PE.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:19
my PE had lower resists all around than most. funny how he was suggested by multiple people as best pistol PE.
And as I said, skillmanager resist scores mean jack. I could care less how many ppl think you are great at dodging and aiming, whats relevent is the fact that you take far less damage then a Spy.
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 14:23
and real resist scores?
basically you are telling me a number you made up in your head makes PE's better.
go find a good spy yourself to test it.
oh and heres the PvP thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=125535) and heres my setup (http://forum.neocron.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9229)
feel free to ignore the resists and look at how much i specced and what armour i use and make up your own number.
oh and heres a setup i made in about 5 mins for a spy (http://forum.neocron.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6800)
note... its a 5 min setup, i'm sure there are much better ones.
:edit: the spy one was made a long time ago so unfortunatly the resists werent able to show in numbers :p
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:27
and real resist scores?
basically you are telling me a number you made up in your head makes PE's better.
go find a good spy yourself to test it.
oh and heres the PvP thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=125535) and heres my setup (http://forum.neocron.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9229)
feel free to ignore the resists and look at how much i specced and what armour i use and make up your own number.
oh and heres a setup i made in about 5 mins for a spy (http://forum.neocron.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6800)
note... its a 5 min setup, i'm sure there are much better ones.
Im seriously not interested in how good you or others think you are at dodging and aiming, anytime you want to properly compare PE and Spy resists vs a mob of stealth hunters, come like I said to Crp with also a Spy and we can show you to your own eyes just how much faster the Spy drops under sustained fire compared to the PE.
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 14:32
Im seriously not interested in how good you or others think you are , anytime you want to properly compare PE and Spy resists vs a mob of stealth hunters,
come like I said to Crp with also a Spy and we cqn show you just how much faster the Spy drops under sustained fire compared to the PE.
thats not comparing anything.
thats like standing an APU next to a spy and shooting them both. if the APU dies quicker he is not underpowered.
you wanna test it? do it in a combat situation. that will be a real test.
oh and i never said i was good.
anytime you want to properly compare a PE and a spy... find one of each that wants to duel.
revengers eye vs spyware for example.
or carpe diem vs kitsunex.
:edit: in fact... i like this approach.
by your logic of con defences being the single most important thing... that would make APU's the most underpowered class in the game?
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:35
you wanna test it? do it in a combat situation. that will be a real test.
.
Nonsense , you are trying to totally evade the point by cloaking the issue with factors of dodge skill and stealth use.
The point is that PEs con is far superior to Spy con , the point is that evasion and dodging abilities aside, the Spy dies much faster then the PE.
I still dont get how you are failing to understand this.
life... you really are showing your ignorance in every post.
note the lack of people agreeing and jumpping in saying (with a straight face) "yeah PEs are overpowered".
maybe you have no idea how to set up a PE (as you think its so amazingly easy to hack all belts and cap a slasher... while having "overpowered" resists) or a spy (as you seem to think they have stupidly low resists and need stealth to survive)... but that doesnt mean shit.
you know what? i was a shitty APU. i sucked at it. i'm a fairly shitty PPU too.
however my PE was listed by multiple people as "best pistol PE" in the last PvP rating thread i saw... my PE won the first (and only) of those ranked tornis that kayne arranged.
does this mean monks are underpowered since i sucked using them but did alot better with PE's?
My apu not capped wearing posion belt and missing her boots still fried a capped tank at CRP *shrugs*
:lol:
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 14:39
by your logic of con defences being the single most important thing... that would make APU's the most underpowered class in the game?
please answer this.
and tell the spy and PE to use stealth in the duel. then you see their defences, and their offenses, and their stealths.
nonsense is saying "this class has an advantage in this one thing... so they are overpowered!!111oneoneoneoneoneoneone"
tell ya what.
get a PPU. get him self buffed and self healed, but leave him DB'd.
get a PE to spam his unmodded wyatt earp at him.
the PPU will eventually die.
does this make a PE better than a ppu? simply by that one fact? no it doesnt. its a totally unrealistic situation. just as a spy or pe standing perfectly still and being hit with every shot.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:41
by your logic of con defences being the single most important thing... that would make APU's the most underpowered class in the game?
Exactly , barring un-stealthed Spys , and speaking durability wise with multiple attackers concentrating fire, an unbuffed APU is indeed likely to die faster than anyone else bar spies.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:45
nonsense is saying "this class has an advantage in this one thing... so they are overpowered!!111oneoneoneoneoneoneone"
No jester, whats nonsense is somebody claiming that a Spys resists are just as good as a PEs , then refusing to do the most straightforward test possible to prove/disprove that claim.
......And instead trying to insist that the test should be adjusted to allow dodge skill/stealth use/offense capabilities/anti-drugs, etc, etc
Bugs Gunny
06-08-05, 14:47
Lifewaster.... Quick question.
Have you ever leveled up and played a compat spy and a combat pe?
Did you ever realy look into these classes?
I mean if you know so much about setups and resist and shelters etc... Then , and i don't mean ANYTHING by this, how come your hybrid setup is one of the worst on the server?
Btw, you didn't prove anything when my spy died to that mob of people.
If you had paid a little bit of attention you would have noticed i was going for you alone, not trying to run at low haelth, not pulling a stealthtool.
Can you say BAAANZAAAAAIIII BOOOONDAAAAAGEEEEEE ? :D
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 14:48
No jester, whats nonsense is somebody claiming that a Spys resists are just as good as a PEs , then refusing to do the most straightforward test possible to prove/disprove that claim.
......And instead trying to insist that the test should be adjusted to allow dodge skill/stealth use/offense capabilities/anti-drugs, etc, etc
nonsense is posting things like that when i have said spies have less health and no poison resist.
a test to test soley the defences (of which i have stated multiple times a PE has the advantage) doesnt prove anything about which class is "overpowered".
you seem to live in a little bubble where the onjly thing that matters in this game is your con setup... all else means nothing. its simply wrong.
:edit:
Exactly , barring un-stealthed Spys , and speaking durability wise with multiple attackers concentrating fire, an unbuffed APU is indeed likely to die faster than anyone else bar spies.
you didnt answer the question.
do you think APU's are "underpowered" due to their lack of defence... despite their extreme offense?
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:55
Btw, you didn't prove anything when my spy died to that mob of people.
If you had paid a little bit of attention you would have noticed i was going for you alone, not trying to run at low haelth, not pulling a stealthtool.
Can you say BAAANZAAAAAIIII BOOOONDAAAAAGEEEEEE ? :D
Hmm, well thats a pretty careless and reckless way to fight for someone who doesnt "take things personally" doncha think?
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 14:57
Hmm, well thats a pretty careless and reckless way to fight for someone who doesnt "take things personally" doncha think?
in a zone where all you lose is a few k for genrepping and a tip for a poker, assuming a clannie doesnt poke?
hardly reckless...
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 14:59
nonsense is posting things like that when i have said spies have less health and no poison resist.
Jester its been pointed out several times already that the current "Uber PE" setup involves zero poison resist thanks to stealth,zonelines,and green dragons. Pls stop trying to fob us off with this old routine.
do you think APU's are "underpowered" due to their lack of defence... despite their extreme offense?
Of course not, the discussion is about the ability to absorb damage while also attacking versus multiple enemies , which the PE can do, but the Spy cannot.
awkward silence
06-08-05, 15:01
Honestly Lifewaster it seems you have no clue on how to play a pe and a spy, or how tough or not they are.
Try them. Those ppl who survive solo at crp are just good or use cheats, either way it has nothing to do with the pe being overpowered.
The way i test a char is so that i make a setup up at the skillmanager and then test it by pvping or having someone shoot me. In my experience the only non correct thing you get from the skillmanager is perhaps the def shelt figures (cant be off much but i notice something iffy there)
The skillmanager figured are not jack while they might not be perfect. Atleast they seem way better than your feel off opinions.
Sorry if i offended you in any way but try a spy or a pe. Youll die non stop before you LEARN how to play them. If you learn to play a PE and be good it takes months of practice and even then some still suck. But i think a well practised spy kicks almost anything. I used to be in the same clan with Dave Insurgent and Zyccy the Beast. Those guys could be chased by 12 ppl at the most and they could kill a few while running around. Zyccy also had a pe called rebel with a cause who practically taught my PE how to fight. Awk had pretty much the same setup since we tested our chars for ours at most and he still pwned me atleast 70% percent of the time. Was it because he was cheating? I doubt it. Was it because his char was overpowered? Doubt that too. He was just better than me. Plain and simple.
Last time i saw him he killed 2 ppus and 3 fighters on his spy or hyb, allthough 1 ppu might have been afk. He spared me for old thymes i guess. Some people are just good at pvp and some arent. I consider myself to be an excellent PE at times but i still have trouble with some people.
Only one way to change it... PRACTICE.
PRACTICE = Go to crp or whatever and die over and over again. As you see the gr more often you should be seeing it less or atleast steadily increasing the amout of people you nail before you get nailed = PRACTICE
Forum monkeying dont help!
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 15:09
Honestly Lifewaster it seems you have no clue on how to play a pe and a spy, or how tough or not they are.
Try them. Those ppl who survive solo at crp are just good or use cheats, either way it has nothing to do with the pe being overpowered.
The way i test a char is so that i make a setup up at the skillmanager and then test it by pvping or having someone shoot me. In my experience the only non correct thing you get from the skillmanager is perhaps the def shelt figures (cant be off much but i notice something iffy there)
The skillmanager figured are not jack while they might not be perfect. Atleast they seem way better than your feel off opinions.
Sorry if i offended you in any way but try a spy or a pe. Youll die non stop before you LEARN how to play them. If you learn to play a PE and be good it takes months of practice and even then some still suck. But i think a well practised spy kicks almost anything. I used to be in the same clan with Dave Insurgent and Zyccy the Beast. Those guys could be chased by 12 ppl at the most and they could kill a few while running around. Zyccy also had a pe called rebel with a cause who practically taught my PE how to fight. Awk had pretty much the same setup since we tested our chars for ours at most and he still pwned me atleast 70% percent of the time. Was it because he was cheating? I doubt it. Was it because his char was overpowered? Doubt that too. He was just better than me. Plain and simple.
Last time i saw him he killed 2 ppus and 3 fighters on his spy or hyb, allthough 1 ppu might have been afk. He spared me for old thymes i guess. Some people are just good at pvp and some arent. I consider myself to be an excellent PE at times but i still have trouble with some people.
Only one way to change it... PRACTICE.
PRACTICE = Go to crp or whatever and die over and over again. As you see the gr more often you should be seeing it less or atleast steadily increasing the amout of people you nail before you get nailed = PRACTICE
Forum monkeying dont help!
couldn't agree more.
i could sit here and complain about any and every WoW class having advantages... but i dont play those classes (or the game for that matter) so my opinion is ill informed.
to put it bluntly you have showed throughout this thread that you have no clue at all about either PE's or spies... and if you, as a blessed hyb, get beaten by a pe then you have little clue about them either.
now i dont want to sound elitist... if you suck then fair enough. however dont try to base balance on the bad players of each class.
:edit: some PE setups include 0 poison, others do not. as i shown in the thread and setup i linked to... i was considered a good PE, and i had poison resist.
con setups aren't all the same.
The only cheat is to have a : good aim + good moves + good cons setup + good weapon YOU LIKE (but there still some... bugs) + fight logic + amusement. >>> check it in a mixer and you got a good fighter.
That was my littletip lifewaster kthxbyelol
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 15:14
... Then , and i don't mean ANYTHING by this, how come your hybrid setup is one of the worst on the server?
/shrug Bugs, I have a setup that I like ........I like to be able to help ppl if they need pokes or resses , I like to be able to PPU ppl for cave teams if they are stuck for a PPU , despite the fact that my 98 combat rank gets me no exp and no money for the effort.
I like being able to buff ppl, and assist ppl in hunting down or fighting off raiders in CRP.
Despite what you may think about wanting to lvling in peace, I spend most of my time in fact hanging around crp waiting for raiders to come , or hanging around Th poking ppl. I have a sporting nature with almost everyone I fight despite whatever happened between us, in fact I even returned a 5 slot holy shelter to a enemy PPU we caught while raiding Doy FA sector, despite that I only have a 3 slot myself.If you think I am bothered by a lost spell in caves that you hacked Im not.
Maybe a Truesight Hybrid setup doesnt suit many ppl but it suits me and I have fun.
Contrary to what you guys may think, I dont want PEs nerfed , I just want the stealth changed so that when they are forced to stealth , they need to continue escaping not be back 10 seconds later....maybe increasing the timer to 20 seconds would actually help, since its not like a PE cant already run half way across CRP with just a 10 sec stealth anyway.
Also if you check the "New role for PEs" thread, you will see me asking for PEs to personally get a major boost to Foreign shields in order in order to make them more viable at op fights and in team PvP.
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 15:17
I just want the stealth changed so that when they are forced to stealth , they need to continue escaping not be back 10 seconds later....
and as long as this is a stealth fix i couldnt agree more. no one should have an instant LE switch. if it took 10 seconds after clicking before it took effect... it =could still be used for spying, for espionage (more so by spies of course as they have longer stealths) but couldnt be spammed mid combat by any class.
once again. i agree theres a problem. but its with stealth as a whole.
awkward silence
06-08-05, 15:27
/shrug Bugs, I have a setup that I like ........I like to be able to help ppl if they need pokes or resses , I like to be able to PPU ppl for cave teams if they are stuck for a PPU , despite the fact that my 98 combat rank gets me no exp and no money for the effort.
I like being able to buff ppl, and assist ppl in hunting down or fighting off raiders in CRP.
Despite what you may think about wanting to lvling in peace, I spend most of my time in fact hanging around crp waiting for raiders to come , or hanging around Th poking ppl. I have a sporting nature with almost everyone I fight despite whatever happened between us, in fact I even returned a 5 slot holy shelter to a enemy PPU we caught while raiding Doy FA sector, despite that I only have a 3 slot myself.If you think I am bothered by a lost spell in caves that you hacked Im not.
Maybe my setup doesnt suit many ppl but it suits me and I have fun.
Contrary to what you guys may think, I dont want PEs nerfed , I just want the stealth changed so that when they are forced to stealth , they need to continue escaping not be back 10 seconds later....maybe increasing the timer to 20 seconds would actually help, since its not like a PE cant already run half way across CRP with just a 10 sec stealth anyway.
Also if you check the "New role for PEs" thread, you will see me asking for PEs to personally get a major boost to Foreign shields in order in order to make them more viable at op fights and in team PvP.
If you increase the n00b stealth to 20 sec i would see it as a boost to pe's. I rarely run aweay and stealth in a fair fight (unless i didnt intent to fight in the first place). I usually see myself stealthing from APU/PPU or just PPU x2 plus fighter group. Thus before you take away my only temporary monk-o-cron relief button, change monks then discuss about stealth.
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 15:34
I rarely run aweay and stealth in a fair fight (unless i didnt intent to fight in the first place).
See thats another issue , yall claim you only use stealth when a fight becomes "unfair" , but also there is the "didnt intent to fight" aspect of things.
Multiple factors can cause the "didnt intent to fight" syndrome , maybe your primes are down, maybe s/d is running , maybe you dont have the right spells in your quickbelt, maybe your wearing the wrong armor, maybe you have lag..etc,etc
What about the non-stealth classes who dont have this luxery ? And are in fact most likely to be attacked by a stealther at those very times.....why do you think the new PVP server is going to be almost entirely populated by Spys and PEs alone ?
awkward silence
06-08-05, 15:42
See thats another issue , yall claim you only use stealth when a fight becomes "unfair" , but also there is the "didnt intent to fight" aspect of things.
Multiple factors can cause the "didnt intent to fight" syndrome , maybe your primes are down, maybe s/d is running , maybe you dont have the right spells in your quickbelt, maybe your wearing the wrong armor, maybe you have lag..etc,etc
What about the non-stealth classes who dont have this luxery ? And are in fact most likely to be attacked by a stealther at those very times.....why do you think the new PVP server is going to be almost entirely populated by Spys and PEs alone ?
True for your first question.
As for the second... spies and PE's are the only classes fun without a buttplug... trust me youll see hybs in the pvp server too (they kinda plug themselves in the butt dont they :p)
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 15:53
True for your first question.
As for the second... spies and PE's are the only classes fun without a buttplug... trust me youll see hybs in the pvp server too (they kinda plug themselves in the butt dont they :p)
Maybe, but those hybrids need a lot of high slotted spells in order to survive so I doubt they will be able to keep those for long with no safezones. Most common char there by far will be a PE or Spy using an epic rifle, and a Jones stealth tool, both undroppable.
I agree Spys and PEs seem a lot of fun , and maybe other simple fixes to the pe can remove the pe stealth issue in any case. But most likely will be a change in stealth since more ppl are in favor of that , ie: PEs who wanna be able to kill stealther Spies, and Spies who wanna kill PEs :p
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 15:55
Maybe, but those hybrids need a lot of high slotted spells in order to survive so I doubt they will be able to keep those for long with no safezones. Most common char there by far will be a PE or Spy using an epic rifle, and a Jones stealth tool, both undroppable.
I agree Spys and PEs seem a lot of fun , and maybe other simple fixes to the pe can remove the pe stealth issue in any case. But most likely will be a change in stealth since more ppl are in favor of that , ie: PEs who wanna be able to kill stealther Spies, and Spies who wanna kill PEs :p
its an instant LE regardless of class... and no matter how "underpowered" you may think spies are... do they deserve an instant LE button?
Lifewaster
06-08-05, 16:03
its an instant LE regardless of class... and no matter how "underpowered" you may think spies are... do they deserve an instant LE button?
Hard to say , we have honestly been over the same points multiple times by now. I really havent yet encountered Spies who can wreak the same havoc as PEs.
However other classes might feel its the case . And a tanks or APUs opinion would probably be that no one should have the current form of stealth.
see it sux because we have these [ edited ] that run around and shoot ppl and then when they started gettin fucked the just use their lil stealth magic and run away...as when I fight on poop...even tho he is like i think 85 dex or some shit when I run in and start to fight unless sumthin is fucked up like i have drugflash or need to put a shelter on or sumthin I neva stealth through the whole fight even up until my death if thats how the fight turns out....i RARELY eva stealth out of a fight and go heal up because i think that is more shameful then diein tbh...hell im soo used to fightin on otha chars witout stealth tools half the time I even forget I have one and just think I have two hacktools in my qb until I actually look at the damn thing and remember..."ooo shit I forgot I even had this...but like i said itas the [ edited ] that hve to go around and ruin it for us wit their shoot three times and stealth away [ edited ]
and as long as this is a stealth fix i couldnt agree more. no one should have an instant LE switch. if it took 10 seconds after clicking before it took effect... it =could still be used for spying, for espionage (more so by spies of course as they have longer stealths) but couldnt be spammed mid combat by any class.
once again. i agree theres a problem. but its with stealth as a whole.
Agreed
Dargeshaad
06-08-05, 16:42
...unless sumthin is fucked up like i have drugflash or need to put a shelter on or sumthin I neva stealth through the whole fight even up until my death if thats how the fight turns out....
Everyone will always have some kind of excuse for stealthing, why should one be better than the other you might want to ask?
Jesterthegreat
06-08-05, 16:45
Hard to say , we have honestly been over the same points multiple times by now. I really havent yet encountered Spies who can wreak the same havoc as PEs.
However other classes might feel its the case . And a tanks or APUs opinion would probably be that no one should have the current form of stealth.
regardless of if you think spies are at a disadvantage for a second... should they have an instant LE switch?
APU's have little defence. would you be happy if they could disappear at the click of a button?
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