View Full Version : CityCom Mission Discussion Thread
Ok as many of you know, the Research missions are being changed to require the TL of the mission item in the players base Research skill. There are a few reasons for this.
1) The missions were originally designed to improve the ability for players to level purely by doing their desired tradeskill. Not as a free way for people to level without needing to do anywork themselves. (Macro's aside since thats another issue completely)
2) In their current form any player is able to buy completed blueprints in bulk to be handed in making it extremely easy to bypass the downsides of losing mass amounts of SL or FS. Effectivly making the whole FS/SL system even less effective then it was at any point before. If you want to raise your FS with another faction so that you can switch factions, then you're just going to have to gain the needed FS on your own. The Faction leaders don't take lightly to people buying their way into their factions. They want proof that you're going to be dedicated enough to help the faction with whatever they require.
3) The main reason for the matching TL & Natural skill requirements is to stop people from just swapping implants, being buffed by a PPU, then walking up and handing in the blueprints with little or no actual Research skill spec'd. These measures are being taken to help eliminate exploiting the system, I will not allow players to bypass this by using yet another loophole hence the need for natural skill.
Research is being the first to be changed. The other Tradeskill missions will follow suit in the near future.
Reguarding non-tradeskill characters, and their ability to level all skills effectivly, the kill missions will be revamped at some point as well. Doing mass amounts of Aggie missions as a capped char to regain mass amounts of FS/SL will be less attractive when theyre revamped, as their FS/SL gains will be reduced to go along with their most likely lowering of difficulty.
I'm sure many of you will agree with me, that a Launcher Cyclopse is not exactly a "Very Hard" mob to kill when you look at the level a player can effective kill them with ease at. If anything a level 50 mob is "Normal" at best. A Warbot Titan is closer to "Hard/Very Hard" then a Cyclopse is.
The xp, cash, and FS/SL rewards for the missions will be adjusted to better suit the changes when they are finalised. Also, the targets required by each faction will be updated. i.e. CityAdmin requiring Terror Leapers to be killed when there is not a Terror Leaper within 6 zones of the gates of Neocron is a little off.
On a side note, the issues with losing FS/SL from hitting a player once tho while relavent to the FS/SL system as a whole is an entirely different issue and therefore should not be viewed as a factor in the FS/SL rewards from the missions as an argument for having them stay high, or easy to obtain. Those issues will be dealt with at a later time.
I suppose the changes are positive all things considered. I think missions shouldnt increase SL at all when its negative, it should have to raise slowly on its own (slower depending on how low it is, to the point of REALLY slow) but raise no matter how low.
Lupus, have my children.
Please?
(That means I agree and should not be regarded as spam :p )
I do like this suggestion as it makes the missions only attractive to pure trade skillers as people without the 150 res are more then likley to be able to go kill things by them selves to raise the skill.
I hope the mission selection process on the city coms are to be completely redone aswell, as trying to sift through combat, delivery and trade skill missions 3 at a time is very annoying when it doesnt go right ;) :p especialy when you get some not found :p
With City Admins extra hard missions being changed mean we'll get some higher level mobs in the swamps at the same time? *cough*
I stilll think that the requiremens on tradeskill missions should be relaxed a little though. My CST PE certainly doesnt ahve 150 CST base, yet has completed and handed in several 150 missions - maybe make them need 120 skill base. as has been said elsewheree, I can imainge people implant swapping and using a PPU to hand in TL50 missions - especially when the recycing mission that are around at the moment are so availble. Oh, and Warbot missions? THAT would be great.
Lovely! Been waiting for this.
My CST PE certainly doesnt ahve 150 CST base
To get a base of 150 you'd need 75 of that skill - don't PEs have an INT cap of 60? As a PE, they're always shafted never getting the highest level of anything - I guess these missions will be another on that list. The highest Tradeskilling mission any PE will be able to do is 120, and that's if they're capped.
i knew there was something else but im not sure the community would agree.
When missions are re-done with levels and different mobs and money and XP and things, could the money be upped a fair bit and then remove thats right remove cash rewards from killing mobs? as i feel this really naffs the economy, well is one of the naffing factors as then money would be a bit harder to come by as youd have to do missions to get it and people caving for XP or hunting for rares wouldnt get a shead load of cash for doing so.
That would be nice, also for the people caving, perhaps run missions from NPCs at camps outside of caves to kill the relevant boss mob down there for a cash reward.
Bugs Gunny
25-07-05, 20:54
150 base is nuts.... my hybrid tradeskiller has 135 base.
Do you guys realy want there to be no pokers left at th?
Plus not only is that one poker less, it'll be a shitty constructor too.
Besides, NO pker will implant etc to do those small missions, by the time he's got his sl back up with those he'll be old and neocron will be long gone and forgotten.
B:Base reserch skill
PR: probable lvl needed to achive base reserch (estimate)
Int:modified int
inorder to accept the mission the following should be checked
TL150 B:130 PR:62 Int:70
TL140 B:125 PR:57 Int:60
TL130 B:120 PR:52 Int:65
TL120 B:110 PR:42 Int:50
TL110 B:105 PR:37 Int:45
TL100 B:100 PR:32 Int:40
TL90 B:90 PR:26 Int:30
TL80 B:80 PR:21 Int:25
TL70 B:70 PR:17 Int:20
TL60 B:60 PR:14 Int:00
TL50 B:50 PR:10 Int:00
TL40 B:40 PR:8 Int:00
TL30 B:30 PR:6 Int:00
Thats just my 2 cent worth ^_^, numbers may have to be shifted around a little to i duno, maby alow a pe to take a 150 if every point is in reserch or sumin, if u get me
Rogue Arson
25-07-05, 21:03
Perfect fix for the 150 cubes being used en masse Lupus. I like it.
Swapping imps, you gotta be joking, one if your set up for combat which most people loosing sl are, The are not going to even have the base setup which would allow them to reach 150 with imps, gloves, and buff's even on a PE, to have the base setup that would allow only 150 ress skill, you'd only be able to pop in adv nervs 2, TH cpu and Resser Glove this would not give you enough free points to add to combat skills such as weplore or psi use.
Tanks make that statement even more ridiculous even if u put everything in int in res buffed up and popped in a TH cpu you'd only reach 92 res.
Monks and Spy yuh this is gonna be possible but it would nerf most setups leaving a Tonne of combat ressers, and would reduce the number of csters, pokers and hackers in game.
For this to even be tolerable the entire mission system in citycom needs to be burnt to the ground and rebuilt from the ground up something more like FoM's system. The current system is basicly a joke.
Gonna reduce the gains from combat missions aswell.... may as well pull the mission system completely.
I look forward to the patch that implements been rerolled within a few hours of its implementation and wasting what is probably months of coding gone to waste. The development page needs to go up so the community can have feedback on things before they go into hard coding otherwise this is going to happen time after time.
Richard Blade
25-07-05, 21:55
I'm sure many of you will agree with me, that a Launcher Cyclopse is not exactly a "Very Hard" mob to kill when you look at the level a player can effective kill them with ease at. If anything a level 50 mob is "Normal" at best. A Warbot Titan is closer to "Hard/Very Hard" then a Cyclopse is.
The only thoughts I currently have are with this statement.
I sometimes considered the difficulty of certain missions to be higher or lower due to the availability of the given mob for the kill. Also, what other mobs will the player have to kill? Giant Sewer Rats are surrounded by nail gun bums and other rats that aggro instantly. That's a hard mission for a lowbie.
Not to give it my prefered ranking, just as a statement for example.
I also understand about teams, and possibly not taking that mission until slightly higher level.
My point being, some of those high level very hard missions are easy, and some of the easy are very hard due to location and frequency of the mobs.
Edit: So, I guess what I'm wondering is if you were going to take that into consideration when the missions get revamped?
ramble rubble rubble
RB
Well it would be looking like that there is going back to the way it should be about specializing and thats a plus, then were going to have more pure trade skillers again, and with regard to loosing hackers and pokers, it will not affect those at all, olny really affects the hybrid cst/ressers.
Great idea Lupus. Thumbs up.
I stilll think that the requiremens on tradeskill missions should be relaxed a little though. My CST PE certainly doesnt ahve 150 CST base, yet has completed and handed in several 150 missions - maybe make them need 120 skill base. as has been said elsewheree, I can imainge people implant swapping and using a PPU to hand in TL50 missions - especially when the recycing mission that are around at the moment are so availble. Oh, and Warbot missions? THAT would be great.
But a PE is easy to cap, where as the resser spy will be a lot lot harder to cap intel and dex through tradeskilling
I like the concept, and the tripple wammy you are trying to fix by doing this.
A little worried about the missions becoming too hard if you get rid of the aggie missions. You will have to make sure 5 x Mob will actually be attainable in a reasonable amount of time.
And re-doing the combat missions for all factions by geography? That is a HUGE job, and I would be very pessimistic that the KK patch machine could get it right without 2 or 3 attempts. Because you will start to find that the mobs just aren't anywhere near to Neocron city for hard missions - and that would mean dealing with the mob distribution of the whole world!
But good luck to you if you are going to try it.
I stilll think that the requiremens on tradeskill missions should be relaxed a little though. My CST PE certainly doesnt ahve 150 CST base, yet has completed and handed in several 150 missions - maybe make them need 120 skill base.
PE's are ment to be less qualified in areas such as this. Their main strength is DEX not INT. Whats the point in even having a Spy class if the PE's is able to do every single thing a Spy can. People who play PE's have got to accept the fact they can't have everything at an equal level as those classes who are geared towards it. Face it, You can only reach 60% of what a Spy or a Monk can reach Intelligence wise naturally. 80% of what a Spy can reach DEX wise ect.
Swapping imps, you gotta be joking, one if your set up for combat which most people loosing sl are, The are not going to even have the base setup which would allow them to reach 150 with imps, gloves, and buff's even on a PE, to have the base setup that would allow only 150 ress skill, you'd only be able to pop in adv nervs 2, TH cpu and Resser Glove this would not give you enough free points to add to combat skills such as weplore or psi use.
Tanks make that statement even more ridiculous even if u put everything in int in res buffed up and popped in a TH cpu you'd only reach 92 res.
Gonna reduce the gains from combat missions aswell.... may as well pull the mission system completely.
On the swapping imp's subject, PE's shouldnt be able to do the 150's anyway so they're neither here nor there. If I did drop the Base for the TL150 missions to say 120, that gives you an extra 150 points to place else where. It's all about balance, Pistol users would be even less hit by these changes then those who use rifles or PSI would be. So to be far to all, the restriction stands. These are tradeskill missions, not I'm a Combat character I just want to buy my FS/SL and XP missions. If your a Combat/Tradeskill hybrid, then you made your choice, the top is for those who specialise, the kill missions will be revamped, until then you're just going ot have to deal with it.
Tanks have no business doing INT Based Tradeskill missions. period.
I did not say I was going to reduce the gains from combat missions. I said that the Aggies don't really qualify as "Hard" Theyre a lvl 35 mob in a world where the highest is 127. Being only 27% up the level scale, they can hardly be called "Hard" Others will take their place in that spot, but those will most likely be closer to 70+
I sometimes considered the difficulty of certain missions to be higher or lower due to the availability of the given mob for the kill. Also, what other mobs will the player have to kill? Giant Sewer Rats are surrounded by nail gun bums and other rats that aggro instantly. That's a hard mission for a lowbie.
Hence why I was giving the examples of what was wrong with the current missions. They don't fit where the mobs are, or how difficult they actually are to kill. Eventually they will be revamped and moved around to better suit both whats in and around the factions location, what level the mobs are, how easy they are to actually kill ect.
150 base is nuts.... my hybrid tradeskiller has 135 base.
Do you guys realy want there to be no pokers left at th?
I have an idea for this, which I'll post soon™
You missundersttod me Lupus - I am saying I have a character who is quite capable of completeing TL150 missions, but you are saying won't be allowed to hand them in. I'm saying this is stupid, and will apply to levelling tradeskillers, hybrid tradeskillers, etc.
You also missunderstood Toxen - he was saying why implant swapping wasnt worth worrying about.
3) The main reason for the matching TL & Natural skill requirements is to stop people from just swapping implants, being buffed by a PPU, then walking up and handing in the blueprints with little or no actual Research skill spec'd. These measures are being taken to help eliminate exploiting the system, I will not allow players to bypass this by using yet another loophole hence the need for natural skill.
While I agree that something has to be done to stop people leveling to /20 in 30 mins, and for fast ways to raise SL/FS.
I think it's been said many times, that very few tradeskillers have 150 base research. My capped researcher has 135 base RES and a total of 195 RES (Implants and glove, no buffs)
It may be ok for multi slot servers where people can afford to have a dedicated 100% pure tradeskiller, but for the 2 slot or 1 slot servers having a dedicated 100% pure tradeskiller is not an option.
Also to get to 150 base research needs at least INT 75 for a Spy. A PE's Natural INT cap is 60 - meaning they can only get about 135 base research. (May be a little lower as I don't know how many starting points a PE get's in INT) So once again the PE's "Jack of all tades" title will be nerfed again!
Then there is the pure hacknet hackers - how are they going to level PSI, considering they can't do any combat outside hacknet?
My solutions.
1. Lower the requirements of TL150 to TL130.
2. Make it so the mission checks the player has 150 RES with implants to do the mission and 130 base skill as well, which looks like what ZoVos as posted.
Also what about the recycle missions? Are they up for a re-write as well?
While I agree that something has to be done to stop people leveling to /20 in 30 mins, and for fast ways to raise SL/FS.
I think it's been said many times, that very few tradeskillers have 150 base research. My capped researcher has 135 base RES and a total of 195 RES (Implants and glove, no buffs)
It may be ok for multi slot servers where people can afford to have a dedicated 100% pure tradeskiller, but for the 2 slot or 1 slot servers having a dedicated 100% pure tradeskiller is not an option.
Also to get to 150 base research needs at least INT 75 for a Spy. A PE's Natural INT cap is 60 - meaning they can only get about 135 base research. (May be a little lower as I don't know how many starting points a PE get's in INT) So once again the PE's "Jack of all tades" title will be nerfed again!
Then there is the pure hacknet hackers - how are they going to level PSI, considering they can't do any combat outside hacknet?
My solutions.
1. Lower the requirements of TL150 to TL130.
2. Make it so the mission checks the player has 150 RES with implants to do the mission and 130 base skill as well, which looks like what ZoVos as posted.
Also what about the recycle missions? Are they up for a re-write as well?
The full saying is "Jack of all trades, master of none".
HackNet will get its own missions that will be done inside HackNet.
As for the rest, One I have it all written out, I'll post my RP explination and solutions to the common issues people have with the changes. This will be posted most likely late tonight, as I have a few things to do before I can finish it.
Recycle missions have been planned to tie-in with the new Research and Construction missions since day 1. They do unfortunately require the current missions to be in a more finalised stated however, so they will be next onteh list after the RES & CST are hammered out.
ima go run the 400 my noob pe has atm before this change happens :P
omg think.. noob chars i make will have to level now :( this change sucks...
Militaryman
26-07-05, 02:08
I would love when you finally put the HN missions in, what I would like more is some boosted programs that make going pure hacker worth the trouble, especially since implants aren't useable inside HN.
Other then that, few other changes, have them listed in brainport if anyone is interested.
Well the phrase treadmill is certainly gonna crop up alot more.
Recycle missions have been planned to tie-in with the new Research and Construction missions since day 1. They do unfortunately require the current missions to be in a more finalised stated however, so they will be next onteh list after the RES & CST are hammered out.
No offence lupus... but when the words planned and feature come up in neocron it like saying these may be in game in a few years but not until after the damage has been done by them not been their. We all rember they "planned" DoY as a free expansion a few months after NC1's launch, They "planned" to add mechs, They "planned" to have playershops. Simply do not impliment the new research missions until everything else to support it is in place.
Not Dissing you Lupus, but isn't that a bit...Late?
If you're going to add better combat missions (Warbots, Launchers, etc) would you please do something about putting more CityComms out there in the wastes? It's incredibly aggravating to have to pass through six zones to complete a mission (Mil Base Center, Mil Base stairway, J_01 and back), and that's if you want to be glued to an existing location.
Where there's a GG, there should be a CityComm, minimum.
Not Dissing you Lupus, but isn't that a bit...Late?
Nothing is too late people can't see into the future, thier sorting out a fault in the mission system one which lets players with bad SL fix it in 10 mins.
i talking about like the terror leapers on CA mission system...
how about the lower mobs like aggie stay in hard but if u wana take on a low mob like a aggie at a hard mission the number you have to kill sumbsantialy increases
arnt there city coms in mine undergrounds or im i just imagining it?
Not Dissing you Lupus, but isn't that a bit...Late?
I'd rather not being doing it at all, I should be spending this time working on finishing up the Phoenix CPU so it can be released next patch, however people are abusing the system massively so unfortunately balance is taking precidence over content yet again.
PE's are ment to be less qualified in areas such as this. Their main strength is DEX not INT. Whats the point in even having a Spy class if the PE's is able to do every single thing a Spy can. People who play PE's have got to accept the fact they can't have everything at an equal level as those classes who are geared towards it. Face it, You can only reach 60% of what a Spy or a Monk can reach Intelligence wise naturally. 80% of what a Spy can reach DEX wise ect.
Ye but to be fair PE's deserve to beable to do the Res mission IF they invest EVERYTHING into it, a pe should beable to to everything, just not as good as a specialist, for instance if they want to do the 150's they need to invest EVERY point in res, liek i said my numbers need t be ajusted slightly, and same for reserch same for anything, they should beable to do what the other classes can do but work much harder to do it,
i want the option to be open, but not to be taken by the majority, i realise u take off 10 levels and it enables a person to invest an extra 50 points in one of the other skills
just concerning the top 3 very hard missions (gimmi a sex ill get neo skiller to check) ill get the actual numbers now
-=EDIT=-
okie dokie, neoskiller says a pe can cap natural reserch at 126, duno if this is rite, cant realy be bothered to look it up
how about a base of 120 for ALL 3 of the top tl 150 140 an 130 missions BUT to accept the 150 you need modified of 160. thats to ACCEPT the mission
so like this
TL 150 Base skill of 120 reserch Modified skill of 175
(this requiers pe's to nurf inplants and get a ppu buff, only having 10 points free to spend in other int based activities, and requieres a techhaven cpu)
TL 140 Base skill of 120 reserch Modified skill of 155
(all reserch implants not including tech haven, and a self buff of construct 1, and no points to spend in anything else)
TL 130 Base skill of 120 reserch Modified skill of 140
(every points spent no advanced nurves)
a base of 120 means PE's are only free to spec 30 points in other skills and the modified skills requier them to use
EDIT 2
this also enables a spy to start doing the missions with a reserch glove and a spine at lvl 80, meaning they are high end missions
Ye but to be fair PE's deserve to beable to do the Res mission IF they invest EVERYTHING into it, a pe should beable to to everything, just not as good as a specialist,
Hence the new system, TL150 is the top. limiting PE's to at most TL120 missions is allowing them to go 80% of the way to the top, even tho they cap at 60% of what a spy can reach.
I'd rather not being doing it at all, I should be spending this time working on finishing up the Phoenix CPU so it can be released next patch, however people are abusing the system massively so unfortunately balance is taking precidence over content yet again.
Would it takes so long to do the both for the next patch :confused:
arnt there city coms in mine undergrounds or im i just imagining it?Doesn't really help when the map's owned by anti-city, does it?
Hence the new system, TL150 is the top. limiting PE's to at most TL120 missions is allowing them to go 80% of the way to the top, even tho they cap at 60% of what a spy can reach.
read my edit, its seems fair to give them the opertunity, even if it means total nuffage, (im thinking that this would possibly best for things like a 1/s slot server where people want there pe to beable to do anything, just pop enough loms and they can make a shed load of money reserching [taking the missions stackin the blueprints then doing them in a lab or sumin])
Doesn't really help when the map's owned by anti-city, does it?
ahh ye good point, :P
EDIT -=-
because i dont wish to double post ill edit this in :P maby move it to a new post if sumbody posts
there needs to be random terminals scatteres around the wasteland, 1 - 2 per sector wireless uplink terminals, this enables you to put a much larger variety of mobs to kill
While I whole-heartedly agree with the idea of preventing every Tom Dick & Harry from buying TL150 RES missions to get their SL back easily after a PKing spree, I am upset that my hybrid Tradeskiller (8/64 Melee Spy, who can research and manufacture rares with 108% - 118% stats) will NEVER be able to do a TL150 CST or RES mission.
Feels like I am being punished for other peoples faults.
This "solution" is a heavy-handed over-reaction, in my opinion. The characters you are allegedly targeting (running in these missions to get SL) are predominantly COMBAT characters with ZERO RES. If you made the requirements 2/3 the level of the mission (minimum base 100 points in RES for a TL150 RES mission) it would surely solve the problem.
I dont believe a combat Monk, PE, Tank, or Rifle Spy could simply "swap a few implants and get a buff" to have 150 RES or CST points without LoMing(The maximum RES points from IMPs + glove = 60, +20 for a buff = 80). A Pistol Spy or Droner could possibly circumvent this, but most seem to have HCK (to gank allied belts).
Therefore these combat characters would have to have 100 RES to do a mission.
How about trying to hit this tack with a tack hammer first, save the sledge hammer for if that doesn't work?
couldnt res missions just lose the SL bonus? a researcher running them probably doesnt care about that...
Ok, I'll make a list of my points and I'll try and answer a few outstanding questions. I was originally going to RP this, but I got writers block about halfway through. So I'm not going to bother with that. Well, I'll paste one exerpt from it anyway..
GenTanks: We r wanting to be doing Tradeskill Missions too!
*Pure Spy Tradeskiller hands the GenTank three boxes with different shaped holes in them, then hands him 3 objects the same shape as those holes*
Pure Spy Tradeskiller: Place each of these objects in the correct box and we'll discuss what missions you'll be able to do.
*GenTank sets out to prove he can do it.*
*3hrs later when the meeting ends and everyone leaves, the GenTank was last seen still trying to hammer the first piece into the wrong box with a baseball bat*
Anyway, back to business..
1) The current limitation to the System is TL150 without creating a new line of tools that would only ever be used for missions.
2) PE's can only reach 60% of what a Spy or a Monk can reach naturally INT wise. I won't budge on this position, being able to reach TL120 is still pushing your character to 80% of the system. You have absolutely no need for a TL150 mission. The only thing this is going to change is your ability to do "missions" it will not effect anything you do outside of missions. You can still research items above TL120.
3) These missions were designed to help pure tradeskillers only, they were not created with anyone else in mind.
4) There needs to be a limit to what Hybrid tradeskillers, and PE's can reach in order to reward those who specialise in one single tradeskill above all others.
5) I'm well aware that many people are a mix of Research/Construction or another combination. These players will be dealt with at a later date. I have 2 different Ideas I'm playing with in regards to them.
6) The main people who will be effected by these changes are a) the allied killers who use the current system as a get out of jail free card, b) those with alts who just want to pay to level their new characters.
7) Before these mission were in place there was no use for a tool over TL122, you people got along just fine without them then, I'm sure you'll do just fine without them now. Unless you fall under 6a or 6b, in which case if your 6a I have no sympathy for you at all, you'll have to deal with the consequences of your actions. Exploiting this loophole stops here. Even with these changes the current system will be alot better then the old system we had in NC1 where sometimes the item you needed was only available in Hostile cities.
8) Combat capable characters will be dealt with on their own. I am against bandaid fixes of one weakness in the game, by crippling another. I'd rather concentrate on one system, finish it, then concentrate on the other, instead of bandaiding the one till the other is fixed, then going back and finishing the first.
9) When reviewing this system, I may have found a side effect of another that directly effects the issue with hitting a player by accident and being hit with a FS/SL hit after they run off and get themselves killed. In other words, I'm well aware of the other issues with the game, and I'm always on the look out for the reason behind it.
10) additions of citycoms around the world for the combat missions will be discussed when they are being dealt with, for now leave them out of this discussion.
11) By making the system into a more specialised setup, and creating new ones for other branches such as hybrids adds to the varity of the game, instead of having everyone just doing the same thing.
Bugs Gunny
26-07-05, 09:50
Let's hope the hybrid tradeskiller missions are not on the list right behind the player shops or we'll not be seeing those soon :D
Anyway, i'm sick of the continuous push from KK to specialize, there's only ONE bloody reason to specialze and that's so you need more accounts to do everything, and KK gets more cash from it.
I refuse to specialize completely so now TH has one poker less, and someone with a bit more research.
My Spideysense is tingling. The policy of attacking one thing at a time then getting around to things like combat characters, citycom locations at a later date is all very good and well, but your goals don't always match up with KK Dev's delivery times, and I am a little worried that it could be a long time until the system is working fully (Is the weapon balancing project complete?)
Of course, as someone who's never macro'd, had negative soulight, or levelled off tl150 missions, this change won't affect me too bad. The only effect on players like me is making it harder to change faction by removing the aggie missions.
Either way, change is good for a mmorpg. Good luck with your changes.
lupus, what will be the benefits of pure traders? say, when i got a pure researcher-spy research base170 (int-base95)... these 20+ research will 'finally' speed my research time up or these researchs or are these lost points?
currently i only see a bit of success-gambling on beeing a 240-250 (imps+op, no buffage) researcher with ~10-20% fail on doubling the TL150 cubes of my sample. i're a bit disappointed atm with the TL150 missions also, but the costs are high even with the op-bought ress-gel + time. (well thats a question of time, that makes it very unattractive for me to be a researcher at all...)
(hope u'll get my point at it... basically i would like to know about the pro-sides of being a pure researcher + dealing with your idea's of changing the system)
Bugs Gunny
26-07-05, 12:19
There's no plussides. Nobody's looking for a pure researcher as a tradeskiller, except researching mc5 parts.
Now somebody that can repair 160, research, implant and cst good stuff is a wanted tradeskiller. That is not too boring either as you'll be getting cash from everyone that visits TH. In times when business is slow you do the research missions.
Now when the implant is taken out, that's a MAJOR loss in cash there. During opwartime you can make real good cash being a tl115 poker in TH.
I'll say it again - I understand perfectly the concept and am happy to see people not abusing these missions that way, but I don't understand why a character who can complete TL X missions themselves can't hand them in...
There's no plussides. Nobody's looking for a pure researcher as a tradeskiller, except researching mc5 parts.
Now somebody that can repair 160, research, implant and cst good stuff is a wanted tradeskiller. That is not too boring either as you'll be getting cash from everyone that visits TH. In times when business is slow you do the research missions.
Now when the implant is taken out, that's a MAJOR loss in cash there. During opwartime you can make real good cash being a tl115 poker in TH.
I agree. The only reason I have a separate CSTer and RESer is because it means I can have their inventories organised differently depending on what they are doing. Apart from that, I could easily make one of them a hybrid and free up another character slot. I think being a hybrid would be more fun as well, seeing as you don't have to relog to do something (unless you've got your own barterer of course), and it makes you a one-stop shop in TH.
And I am glad that the number of pokers is pretty stable in TH, and that people are willing to log a poking alt if there are a few people about requesting pokes. Means I don't need to piss around in my inventory so that I can poke tl115 for free :p
well, i dont have a pure researcher atm. my trader is ress/cst/rep/rec. i're only using fabs+mines+gloves for my scheduled work and since 2months i're only doing only jobs for my own chars (well, i researchs like 10techs for a clany), didnt touched a rare to build, but made some 5slot EPRs, APPs, heals, defs and 'll do TPCs next. i're excited about what and where lupus changes will hit me. for all other traders... be prepared.
If you want to raise your FS with another faction so that you can switch factions, then you're just going to have to gain the needed FS on your own. The Faction leaders don't take lightly to people buying their way into their factions. They want proof that you're going to be dedicated enough to help the faction with whatever they require.
Generally all the cubes being sold are the TL150 ones, requiring 62 faction sympathy for the mission. I've changed factions once since I joined nc2 and the only way to do it was sewer rat (10 symp) then aggressor missions (38 symp). Suppose I could have done the recycle missions too (where you can buy your way into the faction with any chems dealer).
I do like the changes though, I really hope there is a decent XP raise on the harder mob missions, some skills are just really painful to raise with the current XP offerings on missions.
Whilst this will remove the ability of allied killers to abuse the system which is a more than welcome development. It will cause issues to tradeskillers. I know you have touched on this but hear me out.
I have a hybrid Cst/Res/Rep used to be all res but lommed a bit, I still do the missions whilst waiting for business.
If its 150 Base skill would I lom to Pure RES?
NO why would I? The Missions offer little cash reward after taking into account time and gel they also offer little in XP once you get to the higher levels.
Will I stand around in TH for ages waiting around for customers once the change comes in? Probably not as I'll have nothing to do to fill the time.
Better to grab my arti Phos libby and head to the caves for better, quicker XP and cash. Yes my aim is shit but it works :p
Should you Increase the XP whilst making this change it might be worthwhile lomming to pure tradeskill but for player purpose I can res all things and get better XP from caves so why bother?
May aswell just remove the TL150 Cubes altogether, Lupus you need to make it more attractive to go PURE or you'll probably find no one does those missions.
i agree with FN... have my babies,
however, as Riddle said, there is no attraction to going pure (lets say for a single slot server here) ... espically when you cant defend yourself or go and assist in an OP battle (gliders atm Suck balls - weapons/bugs... and everything bar the Rhino is crap (due to open cockpit/vunerability of the driver)... but then who wants to be a driver and watch an op battle unfold while all you do is move forward and then move back)
Most tradeskillers are VHC specced too, how about making changes to vehicles so that tradeskillers can make an impact as well but using a seperate skill (yes like BF 2's tank system)... and would the improved specialisation speed up the research time?
other than that, its a great fix, how will ppl with red soullight/bad SF be treated inside certian HQ's i havent seen any punishment yet either
Richard Blade
26-07-05, 14:54
Hence why I was giving the examples of what was wrong with the current missions. They don't fit where the mobs are, or how difficult they actually are to kill. Eventually they will be revamped and moved around to better suit both whats in and around the factions location, what level the mobs are, how easy they are to actually kill ect.
Sweet.
I knew you would understand me.
Regards,
RB
If you're going to add better combat missions (Warbots, Launchers, etc) would you please do something about putting more CityComms out there in the wastes? It's incredibly aggravating to have to pass through six zones to complete a mission (Mil Base Center, Mil Base stairway, J_01 and back), and that's if you want to be glued to an existing location.
Where there's a GG, there should be a CityComm, minimum.
I second this Idea, anyone to third it. There is a severe shortage of citycom's yet there are gogo's in completely random places in the wastes.
I'd rather not being doing it at all, I should be spending this time working on finishing up the Phoenix CPU so it can be released next patch, however people are abusing the system massively so unfortunately balance is taking precidence over content yet again.
We were seeing screenies of phoenix long before the ally ganking became a major problem now its died down and isn't of real priority to most people.
I second this Idea, anyone to third it. There is a severe shortage of citycom's yet there are gogo's in completely random places in the wastes.
Third'd. There are a number of small buildings dotted around the world that could do with some form of citycom (although I know for a fact that the server doesn't check your faction to see what to display, hence why a pro-city on a DoY terminal views the DoY stuff and vice versa). Maybe have only the global channels available if you could access the ingame forum from it, to "prevent spies accessing the internal workings of the cities".
We were seeing screenies of phoenix long before the ally ganking became a major problem now its died down and isn't of real priority to most people.
The engine couldn't handle the size and number of moving parts of the Phoenix CPU at first, now that it can, work on fine tuning it has started since I can now actually spawn it ingame to run tests on. Working things out on paper is all good in theory, but without actual tests you run into problems.
(Is the weapon balancing project complete?)
Of course, as someone who's never macro'd, had negative soulight, or levelled off tl150 missions, this change won't affect me too bad. The only effect on players like me is making it harder to change faction by removing the aggie missions.
On the subject of the weapons balancing, read my point above where I stated I do not like to bandaid a system as a temp fix just to have to do it all over again when the real issues are fixed. Right now theyre exactly the same as they have been for ages, so there isnt a real need to mess with it yet. They can wait till they're ready to be done properly
Aggies are not being changed right away, I said eventually when the combat missions are looked at, aggies will most likely be dropped into a lower difficulty range.
Lupus would a system where money was only obtainable from doing missions (i.e. no cash reward for single mob kills except selling the loot they drop) be considered by KK? as imo this would balance the economy quite a bit and make the 20mil money cap some what harder to achieve.
Lupus would a system where money was only obtainable from doing missions (i.e. no cash reward for single mob kills except selling the loot they drop) be considered by KK? as imo this would balance the economy quite a bit and make the 20mil money cap some what harder to achieve.
I think by doing that it would be hard for noob players to get any money at all, becouse of the prices at the shops would be to high for new player, you would have to change that as welll.\
Seal
Richard Blade
26-07-05, 19:28
Lupus would a system where money was only obtainable from doing missions (i.e. no cash reward for single mob kills except selling the loot they drop) be considered by KK? as imo this would balance the economy quite a bit and make the 20mil money cap some what harder to achieve.
How about LE'd characters getting paid for kills but non-LE's don't.
RP reason: Neocron administration believes that LE'd people are still law abiding. When MC5 implants the LE, City Admin still believes that everything went well. So, anti can earn money as well.
If you pull the LE, you are no longer in the approved list and won't get paid except through missions.
:) How's that?
That would fix the low level runners finding it hard to afford things flaw with my suggestion deffinetly :D
How about LE'd characters getting paid for kills but non-LE's don't.
RP reason: Neocron administration believes that LE'd people are still law abiding. When MC5 implants the LE, City Admin still believes that everything went well. So, anti can earn money as well.
If you pull the LE, you are no longer in the approved list and won't get paid except through missions.
:) How's that?
Well the thing is hunting takes time and more time to make any money and xp, and the amount you get from mobs is lvl based. ie: a 75/62 based rifle spy dosnt get any thing from mobs that are his combat rank and lower so u have to hunt high lvl mobs.
And as for the economie in NC it has gotten lots better since the 20 mill nc cap, the more rare the product/item the more it costs. which it should be that way. Unless i missed somthing ascew in regards to rediculus prices on anything let me know, i think the economie right now is good.
Seal
A simple question: How are PPUs supposed to change their faction? (Any answer containing the phrase "LoM" is no solution to me.)
A simple question: How are PPUs supposed to change their faction? (Any answer containing the phrase "LoM" is no solution to me.)
Well, the way I do it is to grab a fighter that will either gain faction symp, and GR kill the opposite city (pay someone or whatever). If the PPU slices them to half health with a knife (doesn't take that long once then other person has 99% SI), the fighter finishes them off.
[PiN]Fluffy
26-07-05, 19:45
When will this Change take affect? ;)
A simple question: How are PPUs supposed to change their faction? (Any answer containing the phrase "LoM" is no solution to me.)
Delivery Missions :P
Fluffy']When will this Change take affect? ;) When he has finished it...
Well, the way I do it is to grab a fighter that will either gain faction symp, and GR kill the opposite city (pay someone or whatever). If the PPU slices them to half health with a knife (doesn't take that long once then other person has 99% SI), the fighter finishes them off.And how do I do it without messing up the other symps? :p
Delivery Missions :PI suspected something like this :rolleyes:
Anyway, a pistol spy with 100 research base can still do serious ally killing and get the FS up fast enough, even melee tanks which have put their INT into research (69 base?) can still do TL 60 missions (afterall they don't need to research them, do they?). So for those who really want to mess with allies there are still enough loopholes open.
Secondly it nails you even further down into the faction you are currently in, making this already "static" relationship-template called faction system even more static. Problem here is, it conflicts with the overall priority in player relationships, which means that personal relationships outweight any artifical relationships created by the game.
As a result I think the players should be given tools into their hands to allow them for more freedom in their choice whom they fight and whom not (clan war system anyone?). Furthermore I sometime get the impression some players get bored at fighting the same people over and over, too.
PS: Faction change via GR killing is possible, but (1) I heard rumors about some at KK not liking it and (2) once you did this it will be hard to break out of this cycle again. But then, as soon as you kill enemy runners in non-war-zones, this GR killing is probably a relatively fast way to reach the goal.
Lupus would a system where money was only obtainable from doing missions (i.e. no cash reward for single mob kills except selling the loot they drop) be considered by KK? as imo this would balance the economy quite a bit and make the 20mil money cap some what harder to achieve.
i woudl suport this totaly, on teh condition that missions kills get more money than they currently do, maby double the total that you get of killing the mobs currently, and if there wernt only kill 5 of a mob but also kill 10-20
I was thinking about ppu missions - couldn't you have a 'protection' mission, whereby the game spawns an npc (like a copbot) that you have to protect while he kills superior foes. By healing him and damage boosting the mobs he can kill his quota and you pass your mission.
I was thinking about ppu missions - couldn't you have a 'protection' mission, whereby the game spawns an npc (like a copbot) that you have to protect while he kills superior foes. By healing him and damage boosting the mobs he can kill his quota and you pass your mission.
i was thinking using SC's to take out special enemys only SC's can atack... this would have some in game reason or another. like modules and weaponfire left traces that could be traced back to the perpitrator.
or maby have to heal them slevs through a very dangerous place that the mobs are invincable and destroy/retrive data at the end, keeping the heal running and avoiding antibuff mobs would be a fun test
Research is being the first to be changed. The other Tradeskill missions will follow suit in the near future.
Reguarding non-tradeskill characters, and their ability to level all skills effectivly, the kill missions will be revamped at some point as well.
Taken as a whole, the plan seems good. But why does the implementation have to start by limiting options and then "at some point" the improvements will be introduced? Why not start with the improvements?
Heavyporker
26-07-05, 23:06
(lo all. Dear Crahn, I got to say, I love public libraries)
Lupus - finally! I absolutely love the first post. Simply agree that tradeskill missions need work. Wish you all possible success in this endeavor.
Fluffy']When will this Change take affect? ;)
If all goes well, it'll be changed with the next patch.
Taken as a whole, the plan seems good. But why does the implementation have to start by limiting options and then "at some point" the improvements will be introduced? Why not start with the improvements?
One of the main reasons for the change is that its being exploited by some people, exploits take first priority over anything else. Otherwise they'd both be added at the same time.
as they should... patch the problems first... its more important ppl cant exploit than ppl havin a easy time.
Wow i was expecting more along the lines of "No ETA at the moment but pretty soon" however "Next patch if it works" is alot better, nice work Lupus :)
ArthurDent2k
27-07-05, 00:58
Nice one,my Trader will love it :)
Though Frac-Change's gonna be harder than it is now but well...you're not supposed to change fraks on a daily base for Epics so I can't really complain about that :angel:
Wow i was expecting more along the lines of "No ETA at the moment but pretty soon" however "Next patch if it works" is alot better, nice work Lupus :)
Scripts are done, they just need to be tested to make sure each and every mission still works.
That's a lot of posting for one day, lupus. Thanks :)
Asurmen Spec Op
27-07-05, 02:38
Looks awsome Lupus, cant wait
The policy of making fixing exploits first... is majorly flaw by the simple fact that neocron has a list of exploits as long as my arm commonly known and this list changes with every patch, If you seriously put all exploits at the top of the priority list, we wouldn't see anything else but fix patchs for the best part of a year. The fact that your adding the new ress missions without the rest of the mission infastructure is way more of a bandaid fix than implementing temporary measures then releasing everything in one go. Theres obviously a mixed view over this shouldn't it be at least put to a poll even if its just to get the opinion of the people in a more statstical view
i know it's been stated that citycoms for combat missions is an issue not too urgent at the moment, however i should just like to say this in case it has not been considered. there should be an abundance of citycoms inside hacknet also when the combat missions are implemented. with pure hackers having a rather slow runspeed it would be unrealistic to expect them to continuously travel from their faction hq to NC Travel 9, for example, after each mission completion. at present, getting there from your faction hq can take upto half an hour. given that a tradeskiller can finish a TL150 mission and start the next mission in a period of 3-5 minutes it would be imbalanced and unfair.
additionally, hacknet missions should give extra xp to strength and psi over int, dex, and con as these two stats are the hardest thing to raise for a pure hackneter - especially strength as it's cap is 40.
The policy of making fixing exploits first... is majorly flaw by the simple fact that neocron has a list of exploits as long as my arm commonly known and this list changes with every patch, If you seriously put all exploits at the top of the priority list, we wouldn't see anything else but fix patchs for the best part of a year. The fact that your adding the new ress missions without the rest of the mission infastructure is way more of a bandaid fix than implementing temporary measures then releasing everything in one go. Theres obviously a mixed view over this shouldn't it be at least put to a poll even if its just to get the opinion of the people in a more statstical view
Fixing expolits first is not a flaw. I take it youre talking about game wide exploits in general, in which case I'm not working game wide, I'm focusing on one set part of the game, and it's major exploits are getting taken care of before anything else is done with it. Also, if you have a list of exploits as long as your arm, why have I not seen an e-mail from you about anything exploit related in the exploits@neocron.com queue that i can remember? In the past 3months I have not seen one single e-mail on any exploits at all. Also, what new RES missions are being put ingame?
i know it's been stated that citycoms for combat missions is an issue not too urgent at the moment, however i should just like to say this in case it has not been considered. there should be an abundance of citycoms inside hacknet also when the combat missions are implemented. with pure hackers having a rather slow runspeed it would be unrealistic to expect them to continuously travel from their faction hq to NC Travel 9, for example, after each mission completion. at present, getting there from your faction hq can take upto half an hour. given that a tradeskiller can finish a TL150 mission and start the next mission in a period of 3-5 minutes it would be imbalanced and unfair.
additionally, hacknet missions should give extra xp to strength and psi over int, dex, and con as these two stats are the hardest thing to raise for a pure hackneter - especially strength as it's cap is 40.
A citycom wouldnt really fit inside hacknet, since hacknet is basically the feed that CityCom gets its info from. iirc, the plan is to have NPC's inside the various Faction HQ's that give out various missions for inside hacknet. These I believe were being done by Snowcrash, tho I don't think they are his current project since he's also working on other things at the same time, he's the one who did the newbie missions.
Also, I'm going ot have to say you idea for gaining more STR & PSI xp from missions then INT, DEX & CON is not possible. Currently its only possible to specify how much XP to give, and not in what stats to give it.
theres already citycoms inside the faction DNS..isnt there
theres already citycoms inside the faction DNS..isnt there
There could be, I know there wasnt at first, since then I've mainly concentrated on the npcs in hacknet. So if they were added, then its news to me.
i just logged in and looked. yes there is Citycoms in the faction dns's, they look like the outpost hacknet switch but are citycoms.
Also, I'm going ot have to say you idea for gaining more STR & PSI xp from missions then INT, DEX & CON is not possible. Currently its only possible to specify how much XP to give, and not in what stats to give it.
Check the Newbie quests, IIRC they give XP to only one of the main stats of the player, not all the players stats.
Bugs Gunny
27-07-05, 10:38
Lupus, you're slipping.
First the citycoms who've been in the hacknet DNS for months.
Now this .... You should have spent more time playing NC instead of leveling up a rank 44 dude in WOW :-)
Dargeshaad
27-07-05, 10:39
Check the Newbie quests, IIRC they give XP to only one of the main stats of the player, not all the players stats.
That's a bug....errr "feature" :lol:
Bugs Gunny
27-07-05, 10:42
As in : Someone wrote it in there, then didn't take notes and now they don't remember how exactly they did it? :-)
Excellent Lupus, just excellent!
Bugs Gunny
27-07-05, 12:24
It has condemned the citymercs to either pacifism or a life of correcting sl by running mob killing mission in the wastelands.
I feel bad for them, they are going to be the most shafted faction in the game, seconded by Tsunami.
Hmm, sounds like the Mercs need a CM-Terminal out at the Bunker in J01. It's like a citycom, or a RN terminal, except you have to be a City Mercs to use it.
Aye forgot about Merc's for someones thats sposed to be the solution to almost all your problems, with an attitude of go anywhere kill anyone their sure gonna put in a tight situation by this little change
Fixing expolits first is not a flaw. I take it youre talking about game wide exploits in general, in which case I'm not working game wide, I'm focusing on one set part of the game, and it's major exploits are getting taken care of before anything else is done with it. Also, if you have a list of exploits as long as your arm, why have I not seen an e-mail from you about anything exploit related in the exploits@neocron.com queue that i can remember? In the past 3months I have not seen one single e-mail on any exploits at all. Also, what new RES missions are being put ingame?
If i could prove that these exploit were taking place the exploits mail inbox would be choka full of reports but the fact remains that alot of these exploits are extremely hard to prove even with screenies and fraps running. You would litterally need a GM to follow someone once it was reported, for them to catch people at it. As theres not that level of GM staff, it won't happen so unless an exploit is drastically hurting the game, and has majorly visible inpacts, people for the majority will ignore them. So while you tackle perhaps a couple of exploits, several more will just go unnoticed and unaddressed.
Hmm no ones touch the post in a while thats strange anyway to prove the point this evening I caught a guy exploiting.
Edited - Discussing exploits. -Lupus
But the point is any evidence I could have gathered on him is purely circumstancial.
Hmm no ones touch the post in a while thats strange anyway to prove the point this evening I caught a guy exploiting.
Thats when you report it ingame. If you suspect someone of macro'ing then send in a ticket on it. Hopefully a GM will recieve it in time to take action. Plasmastorm caught someone doing something like this lastnight, and it's been noted in their account record.
btw, next time PM me with info like that.
How can you prove someone in macroing though? According to helpdesk your previous XP values aren't stored, so you can't look for a trend in increases, so unless the server timestamps and logs everytime someone hits the "Start" button, I doubt it can be tracked.
If I leave my resser AFK overnight doing nothing, would I be accused of macroing just because I don't respond to anyone and I am obviously a researcher?
Bugs Gunny
28-07-05, 12:05
Or even better, how do you report someone that's hiding INSIDE the outer walls of MB, or on top of the ceiling inside?
All you get is a screenshot of wall with someone in local, unless you get in there yourself.
And by the time a gm shows up they have left.
I've seen a Tank with PPU, yes.. god knows why he would need one in there, do this after pronouncing their pvpskills at the mb genrep.
Dargeshaad
28-07-05, 12:09
Or even better, how do you report someone that's hiding INSIDE the outer walls of MB, or on top of the ceiling inside?
All you get is a screenshot of wall with someone in local, unless you get in there yourself.
And by the time a gm shows up they have left.
I've seen a Tank with PPU, yes.. god knows why he would need one in there, do this after pronouncing their pvpskills at the mb genrep.
Couldn't the person in question just argue that it was most likely just because he was warping? I mean with the shitty netcode right now it's not really unlikely :lol:
Bugs Gunny
28-07-05, 12:14
Lol
"We've both warped straight into the walls at the exact same spot where we had a clear line of sight on whoever came outside and we just had to drop a few enemies."
"Then after about 5 minutes of standing there, all of a sudden we found our way out of the wall and we went back inside feeling realy good about ourselves."
How bout consider in one of patches , make lom pills stackable?
im pretty sure it was written before but ill try it anywas. Im loming since yesterday 7pm my spy. And im not even half way to the end. How bout make lom pills stackable. What i mean here is make those pills gives you exactly same synaptic time as they woudl when taken one by one. In this way i coudl just eat 60 loms overnight and all will be fine. Just an idea
How bout consider in one of patches , make lom pills stackable?
im pretty sure it was written before but ill try it anywas. Im loming since yesterday 7pm my spy. And im not even half way to the end. How bout make lom pills stackable. What i mean here is make those pills gives you exactly same synaptic time as they woudl when taken one by one. In this way i coudl just eat 60 loms overnight and all will be fine. Just an idea
Doubt that would happen unfortunately, thats basically macroing which KK don't like.
I had to read that post twice.
He means stackable as in the SI stacks. So you take 10 LOM's at once expect not to move for 1 hour, but at least you can watch a episode of SG1 without getting up every 6 mins.
that would certainly be more popular with the players, but somehow I don't see kk changing loms to work like that.
I had to read that post twice.
He means stackable as in the SI stacks. So you take 10 LOM's at once expect not to move for 1 hour, but at least you can watch a episode of SG1 without getting up every 6 mins.
Same thing. Going AFK to counter the time penalty of altering your setup is not what KK want to achieve, regardless of whether you macro it or if the SI stacks.
Aye the official word with loms is that their for fine tuning setups rather than completely changing it. Though with some of the changes been implement at the moment a temporary of freeing all you int points so you can change to match the current missions changes easily would be good.
And lupus as for sending in a ticket to catch them out, by a GM dropping in.. no offence but I had to laugh at this. The gm team is a brilliant one especially on Terra Hoder's been doing an insane ammount of work he deserves some sort of bonus, reward etc. buy anyway back on point theres simply not enough of the GM's at peak times the average ticket que is 3-5, thats at least the best part of an hour unless some major bug has occured and everyones reporting it. A an even simpler way to avoid getting caught is to do it justing non peak times, when no gm's are around.. for example I have put a ticket first thing before I went to bed it was first in the que, yet 12 hours later it was still first and wasn't responded to until 45 minutes later.
long live terra's herbalis plant killer ^^
long live terra's herbalis plant killer ^^
Now i find that rather intresting that you knew what was going on even though you weren't there. And lupus has already edited the post.
I was listening to alliance(and help) chat last night. :rolleyes:
:) Yuh did kinda announce his position
I just had this image of you guys stripping him naked and everytime you rezz him he'll pop up and start shooting again as if nothing has happened... :lol:
I just had this image of you guys stripping him naked and everytime you rezz him he'll pop up and start shooting again as if nothing has happened... :lol:
Well at least till his gun drops.....
I don't want to cheat or exploit, I'm loving this game. I don't want to get booted or have my chars wiped or anything like that...But what 'is' an exploit please.
I was thinking of taking my combat chaincraft to a plant today - I didn't know this was an exploit (Please confirm - Is it or isn't it?). It is a MoB in the gameworld after all.
I don't want to cheat or exploit, I'm loving this game. I don't want to get booted or have my chars wiped or anything like that...But what 'is' an exploit please.
I was thinking of taking my combat chaincraft to a plant today - I didn't know this was an exploit (Please confirm - Is it or isn't it?). It is a MoB in the gameworld after all.
An exploit is a method that uses a flaw in the game to your advantage. Basically.
The discuessed incident was an exploit not becauseof the mob he was killing, but because he was essentailly "macroing" the hunting.
Bugs Gunny
28-07-05, 15:19
For instance:
Inviting the best pvper on the server for a duel after shittalking on ooc for hours, then not showing up to die and logging in 3 hours later saying that you couldn't log in because of the bad client software :D
Hey, it's exploiting too if you aply it to that rule.
Ahh, I see. TY CM. So I am OK to do this then :)
Back on topic:
I see the points raised here about base versus imped/buffed but I don't understand.
If you guys had your way then you would like 150 missions to be available to those with 150 Research (for instance) skill imped. If you were a PPU and self buffed another 15 or so and went to a lab - would you really still try a 150 with 200 (ish) RES skill? I know I wouldn't, I can't afford the lube waste.
Even with Lupus' 150 Base - If you only just got 150 its still risky with 150 base + nerves, glove, TH, Hawk, etc + Fac and Buff isn't it?
Asurmen Spec Op
28-07-05, 15:31
Back on topic:
I see the points raised here about base versus imped/buffed but I don't understand.
If you guys had your way then you would like 150 missions to be available to those with 150 Research (for instance) skill imped. If you were a PPU and self buffed another 15 or so and went to a lab - would you really still try a 150 with 200 (ish) RES skill? I know I wouldn't, I can't afford the lube waste.
Even with Lupus' 150 Base - If you only just got 150 its still risky with 150 base + nerves, glove, TH, Hawk, etc + Fac and Buff isn't it?
with 150 base youll have more then enough to easily do them, my resser has 140-150base iirc
Bugs Gunny
28-07-05, 15:39
You don't get it, some of us veterans have hybrid tradeskillers, for instance you can perfectly make a 150cst 195res tradeksiller that doesn't need buffs nor outposts to do it. This guy will do 150 missions fine, yet won't be allowed to run them anymore as his base research rank is only 135 or so.
Asurmen Spec Op
28-07-05, 15:41
You don't get it, some of us veterans have hybrid tradeskillers, for instance you can perfectly make a 150cst 195res tradeksiller that doesn't need buffs nor outposts to do it. This guy will do 150 missions fine, yet won't be allowed to run them anymore as his base research rank is only 135 or so.
What are you implying :(
Bugs Gunny
28-07-05, 15:49
I didn't imply anything and it wasn't directed at you lol.
I should have said, people with experience in tuning a tradeskiller setup.
Everyone knows that having a hybrid tradeskiller frees up a slot to make another char, yet everyone who'se done this must now lom to compensate and get that 150 natural research in.
Asurmen Spec Op
28-07-05, 15:51
I didn't imply anything and it wasn't directed at you lol.
I should have said, people with experience in tuning a tradeskiller setup.
Everyone knows that having a hybrid tradeskiller frees up a slot to make another char, yet everyone who'se done this must now lom to compensate and get that 150 natural research in.
but as lupus said, its really to help people who go 100% into the stat, hybrids can still do 120 missions
so unless the server timestamps and logs everytime someone hits the "Start" button, I doubt it can be tracked.
And why not store that? Disk is cheap.
Dargeshaad
28-07-05, 17:12
And why not store that? Disk is cheap.
I'm pretty sure the database is under enough preasure already
Dribble Joy
28-07-05, 17:13
They could apply item tracking to res mission BPs, ID them when they are created (or did I miss the point).
And why not store that? Disk is cheap.
They don't save your previous XP values, I doubt they will bother with something like this. Your stats could reset to those of a 0/2 n00bs and KK wouldn't do anything about it.
Anyway talking of exploiters why doesn't KK operate a name and shame policy. Tbh i think it fair if someones exploiting we're told about .
This mainly conserns how the citycoms function on missions, but here goes....
Something have to be done about the random mission selection screen. I've played this game since betas and not a single bug has been more annoying than this crap. At worst you actually have to spend more time clicking "Next" than doing the mission itself. And if you get "lucky" (Like 1 out of 10...20), the mission selection is bugged so that certain missions never appear until you exit the whole console and try again. We have queues and bureacracy in real life, we don't need virtual un-emplyment. I don't know why it works like it works now, perhaps it's anti-macro measure, perhaps it's just worst UI design I've ever seen, I don't know. But it has to be changed, as soon as possible. When I go a console, I need to be able to pick the mission I want immediately, not after three minutes of random crap.
Just design it again so that all selected level missions are visible at once and directly selectable. If macros are conserned problem, just randomize the order, it should help to a certain degree.
I'm pretty sure the database is under enough preasure already
So?
Logging is fundamentally different from database operations since it has two important properties. It's always appending, never modification and it can be done asynchronously, since there are no relations between log entries (or in worst case - log entries only depend on previous log entries). In other words - it's so cheap you won't even notice (if you have a dedicated disk for it of course).
And I just don't see how the database can be under high pressure. If the server population is 400 people at peak times and all those 400 people generate 10 transactions per second, it's 4000 transactions per second. It's a trivial load for modern hardware, unless the database is badly designed... oh, I see, never mind.
...unless the database is badly designed... oh, I see, never mind.
Take a step back and consider two things.
One: Who told you that logging was adding load to the server? Not us.
Two: Try and resist the temptation to slag off something you a) know nothing about and b) isn't even causing anyone any problems. I know it's hard, but you can do it.
N
I really like the idea of redesigning missions , better xp from doing missions and better rewards woudl be nice. Same with Epic missions , i mean cmon completed epic gives you like 4000xp? How bout make epic missions better way to cap sub skills like psi for spys etc etc.
This threads starting to go all over the place so lets pick the ends and bring it back together.
What we know.
* Res missions, most likely from next patch, will require base res skill equal to the TL of the mission to hand them in. stopping them been used as cash cows and soulight recovery cubes for ally gankers.
* CST/REC Mission Will follow.
* Combat missions will be adjusted to better match their definition ie Terror Leapers would be hard. These will also reflect mobs further away from the base city with increasing difficulty.
* Non of this is going to be altered unless theres a sudden mass cancelation of accounts by people.
What we want.
* The new requirement to be changed so that it includes buffs, imps, drugs and other bonus's
* Citycom mission system redesigned so the mission selection is far easier and straight forward (This is of PRIORITY and should be implemented before the mission alterations. I think people would be willing to put up with the current state of play for a couple of extra months, for the ground work to be put in before the new missions are dumped on us in another incomplete attempt to cover up holes in the game).
Now I have a couple of things to say here. Anyone thats smart and even has the basic knowledge of how business customer relation works should know these cliché phrases. "The Customer is always right." I know thats so cheesy but its something that the Dev's should listen to. If the majority of the community said we all wanted god mode and be able to warp anywhere at will, you should give it to us. Simply because we're the major contributing funds of your paypackets. In the end even though the game and its rights are technically owned by KK and associates, the game belongs to the consumer, if the consumer is not satisfied and decides to go elsewhere the kid modding the mainstream FPS becomes more successful in an instant.
This threads starting to go all over the place so lets pick the ends and bring it back together.
What we know.
* Res missions, most likely from next patch, will require base res skill equal to the TL of the mission to hand them in. stopping them been used as cash cows and soulight recovery cubes for ally gankers.
* CST/REC Mission Will follow.
* Combat missions will be adjusted to better match their definition ie Terror Leapers would be hard. These will also reflect mobs further away from the base city with increasing difficulty.
* Non of this is going to be altered unless theres a sudden mass cancelation of accounts by people.
What we want.
* The new requirement to be changed so that it includes buffs, imps, drugs and other bonus's
* Citycom mission system redesigned so the mission selection is far easier and straight forward (This is of PRIORITY and should be implemented before the mission alterations. I think people would be willing to put up with the current state of play for a couple of extra months, for the ground work to be put in before the new missions are dumped on us in another incomplete attempt to cover up holes in the game).
Now I have a couple of things to say here. Anyone thats smart and even has the basic knowledge of how business customer relation works should know these cliché phrases. "The Customer is always right." I know thats so cheesy but its something that the Dev's should listen to. If the majority of the community said we all wanted god mode and be able to warp anywhere at will, you should give it to us. Simply because we're the major contributing funds of your paypackets. In the end even though the game and its rights are technically owned by KK and associates, the game belongs to the consumer, if the consumer is not satisfied and decides to go elsewhere the kid modding the mainstream FPS becomes more successful in an instant.
You won't get Imp, Buff & Drug bonuses applied, if anything I may consider dropping the requirement a little lower, to say 10 less then it's TL. I'm doing more then just stopping an exploit here, I'm also seperating the Hybrids from the Pures. These missions are being set with PE's & Hybrids in mind.. Meaning, they can't reach the top. If you want to be at the top of the tradeskill arena, use a class that suits that skill set and or specialise in that skill above all others.
CityCom's are not something I myself can do anything about. I've passed on my own wish for them to be seperated in the past however. So you're wish for them to be seperated better, mirrors my own personal one as well.
You can't say that people don't want God Mode, I'm sure everyone wants God Mode, they just know they'll never get it. No company in their right mind would give all their players God Mode & Warp abilities, no matter how much it was asked for. With those two abilities there would be no point in the entire combat system, or vehicles, or GR's, or the Agiliity/Athletetics bonuses on movement speed, or the armor, or the resists system, or the health code, ect.. All you'd basically be left with is a graphical IRC channel, with point, click & insta kill mobs tossed around. How many people do you think would pay for something like that?
Asurmen Spec Op
29-07-05, 06:42
[ edited ]
It could
It could
well considering most of the server just runs about whoring their ppu i dont see how much would change
"The Customer is always right."
The customer is most likely wrong. The customer bases his decisions on instant gratification and lack of understanding of how things work. Not only that, but the customer usually has wishes that are internally inconsistent ("I want to be able to win the game in one click and I want it to have enough content for 3 years of playing and everything has to be fun") and in direct conflict with the wishes of other customers. The customer also doesn't want to pay anything and have all the features implemented as soon as possible, but without bugs. The customer doesn't understand the trade-offs and usually spends 15 seconds to design a solution to a problem and thinks it's a great solution while the business might spend even a year to make it work.
The phrase "the customer is always right" has caused more damage in the world than almost any other phrase. Because people actually believe it. If you study business, you'll see that those who really believe that phrase are dead or dying. The successful business has a healthy contempt for their customers (like the president of the company I work for who constantly repeats that our customer are idiots) while paying lip service to that phrase (to make the idiots feel good).
Asurmen Spec Op
29-07-05, 08:28
[ edited ]
We do a fine job on our own
You can't say that people don't want God Mode, I'm sure everyone wants God Mode, they just know they'll never get it. No company in their right mind would give all their players God Mode & Warp abilities, no matter how much it was asked for. With those two abilities there would be no point in the entire combat system, or vehicles, or GR's, or the Agiliity/Athletetics bonuses on movement speed, or the armor, or the resists system, or the health code, ect.. All you'd basically be left with is a graphical IRC channel, with point, click & insta kill mobs tossed around. How many people do you think would pay for something like that?
You took that a little to literally, the point was to emphasize the point that if theres a mass demand for a feature in the game that it should be persued at a higher priority than the rest of the features with the exception of fatal flaws in the design (that does not include exploits such as res missions and nerfing trader hybrid, and while we're on that point why don't you do something about blessed hybrids and ppu's there damaging the game more than trader hybrids at the moment).
The trick is anticipating what users want before they want it. Which you are sorely doing at the moment. Infact I rarely see business - customer relations with NC, (neocronicle, votr don't count) unless someone on the forums direct attacks an issue and brings it to the point of near flaming. Bring back the plan files was good but theres still something lacking. Sometimes it feels like the dev's rarely address the customers concerns unless they simply come to tell us "no we're not doing that or changing that, so go away". All credit to Nid he does a most excellent PR job and has probably saved a multitude of customers from canceling their accounts. But the point is more dicussion between consumers and dev's needs to take place including irc dev chats most people wouldn't be so antsy if they new what was comings and had status reports on it regularly, and can point out flaws earlier on rather than having to wait to patch day reading the patch notes then going finding half a dozen things new that aren't in the patch notes and then seeing alot of stuff get changed back next patch.
And if everybody and I mean everybody wanted a glorified irc channel with point and click kills heck what ever makes them happy but then that would be the total extreme of the idea it is a matter of balance a balance between the businesses goals to make money and to provide a product to the customer. Sometimes I feel that KK's too intrested in money than keeping a satisfied customer the best example of this is the attempted asian release. Resources were drawn away from your existing loyal consumer base where they were sorely needed to attempt to crack into a veteran market in the end ultimately going to waste. Im gonna anoy hegdemon again with this but "Its ten times as hard to gain a new customer than it is to keep an existing one"
You took that a little to literally, the point was to emphasize the point that if theres a mass demand for a feature in the game that it should be persued at a higher priority than the rest of the features with the exception of fatal flaws in the design (that does not include exploits such as res missions and nerfing trader hybrid, and while we're on that point why don't you do something about blessed hybrids and ppu's there damaging the game more than trader hybrids at the moment).
Any exploit that has the potential to ultimately disrupt the enjoyment of the game by others, such as ally killers for one who exploit a mission system to negate the effects of the FS/SL system should be considered a fatal flaw, the hybrid tradeskiller part is just hitting two birds with one stone, I'm already working on the isssue, I may as well make the other changes at the same time instead of going back and doing exactly what I'm doing now yet again.
As for combat balance in general, I've posted about that topic numerous times already.
Edit: This will be my last response on this issue, this thread is about the Research missions themselves, not about how we should be, or shouldnt be fixing something else instead. If you have anything to discuss that realtes to the changes themselves then fine. This thread has been taken off topic enough. I've posted the reasons for the changes, and have said I'll consider lowering the requirement to slightly less then equal to the items TL. I'm still open to more suggestions provided theres a good enough reason behind it.
Any exploit that has the potential to ultimately disrupt the enjoyment of the game by others, such as ally killers for one who exploit a mission system to negate the effects of the FS/SL system should be considered a fatal flaw, the hybrid tradeskiller part is just hitting two birds with one stone, I'm already working on the isssue, I may as well make the other changes at the same time instead of going back and doing exactly what I'm doing now yet again.
As for combat balance in general, I've posted about that topic numerous times already.
Hopefully the SL fix is next them? I don't want to lose a huge amount of soulight for defending myself, and then not be able to get it up quickly because I can't run RES missions. I could spend ~30 mins recovering to positive SL from doing Aggy/Launcher missions, then someone could come along with minutes of that and rinse repeat.
Hopefully the SL fix is next them? I don't want to lose a huge amount of soulight for defending myself, and then not be able to get it up quickly because I can't run RES missions. I could spend ~30 mins recovering to positive SL from doing Aggy/Launcher missions, then someone could come along with minutes of that and rinse repeat.
We found an issue related to the 15% free damage before recieving an FS/SL hit that seems to have been causing any damage at all to exceed this limit. Hopefully with the next patch the 15% limit will be working correctly once again. i.e. punching someone once will not cause you to be hit if they decide to run off and have a guard kill them.
We found an issue related to the 15% free damage before recieving an FS/SL hit that seems to have been causing any damage at all to exceed this limit. Hopefully with the next patch the 15% limit will be working correctly once again. i.e. punching someone once will not cause you to be hit if they decide to run off and have a guard kill them.
Out of interest, since runners unlike mobs have the ability to heal: What happens if i damage someone 30%, he heals up, runs away and gets killed by someone else? Do i still get a FS/SL hit?
A bit more information how that calculation works would be appreciated.
Out of interest, since runners unlike mobs have the ability to heal: What happens if i damage someone 30%, he heals up, runs away and gets killed by someone else? Do i still get a FS/SL hit?
A bit more information how that calculation works would be appreciated.
Heh mobs heal constantly just not as fast :).
Until lupus responds I would assume your still gonna get that hit. (Always assume worst case senario) The moral of this story is zone and zone often and if you can do that make sure you in a team with everyone around you.
Lupus can I toss something onto table with sl issues.
1) Could team sizes been increased to accomodate larger teams for events and the like. Couple of major SL hits were taken by some people when we ran that doy base out of oz 3.
2) Could clan mates be automatically treated as team mates ie you kill one or hit one and then they accidently go down you don't get a SL hit. and perhaps extend this to member of clans that are officially allied (via some new clan admin citycom function that requires both leaders or high rankers to accept it to stop abuse). Think it would make more sense rather than just having SL safety limited to 10 people at a time. Kinda diminutive to the we're all one big city alliance etc.
I was going to post something about teams and such a few days ago, imo teams should stay as they are but have a proper team leader who is shown at the top of the RPOS F10 window with a little leader badge next to them and there should be a button for that team leader to kick people from the team, id hope a button could be added for this since i just found out on monday there is a kick from team function, lol
Then teams should be able to form a squad (like the WoW systems equivalent of groups and raids) which would be ideal for events and even just for a whole clan to be teamed up during op wars.
i just found out on monday there is a kick from team function, lol
There is? Tell me HOW.
There is? Tell me HOW.
On the back of the Neocron 1 map it says to add people to a team you type
/+t playername
And to kick you type:
/-t playername
Havnt tried it yet so i dont know if its the origianl team starter who can only do it, but i imagine thats the case.
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