View Full Version : Spell Cast Nerf - KK Explain Yourselves
For the last two patches, we have been treated to a lovely new 'feature', the runcast nerf, or should I say walk-cast nerf, being that if you are not standing still, and have been standing still for 3 seconds while the server catches up, your spell will most likely fail.
Combine with this the Neocron 2-specific lag and chaos at op wars, an increased (at least for me) number of fatals when zoning, and we are rapidly approaching a situation where many players are going to stop playing. KK, may I remind you that OP wars are the only reason a lot of us are still here, for many, they are the 'end game'. And they are in a very bad state. But I digress...Please can you urgently confirm the following:
- What was the intent of this change?
- How much testing of this change did you make on your internal test server?
- Who was it meant to apply to (because at the moment it affects all characters). If it is aimed at monks, why did you not implement any of the other changes (Para...) that the community has suggested?
- Will this change be permanent? (Watch your answer on this one...)
- Can the effect be counteracted by putting more points into certain stats, or is it regardless of skill (again, consider the implications if it is the latter).
- If the effect can be counteracted with skill points, when will you be releasing all characters Int and Psi skills so we may reconfigure our characters to adapt to your change?
- Can you confirm the spell fizzle is NOT related to the switch on of item tracking, and the addmitted performance hit which then ensued?
I am aware that in the latest patch notes this nerf was 'subject to change', but we might not get a patch for weeks, and thus I want to know your intention with this. Please answer as soon as you can, as I can tell you now that NO ONE likes what you have done, people are presuming you will be fixing it very soon...and if you are, great.
Just Tell Us.
Thanks in advance,
Sel
Scanner Darkly
11-07-05, 16:25
While this makes NC even more unpredictable (didn't think that was possible) I think it is a "feature" rather than a feature, if you get my drift. Annoying and counterproductive and hardly a solution to what many perceive as the 'monk problem'.
I'm trying to get answers on this. I can't promise answers to everying but let's see how it goes.
N
All I know is this "nerf" seems to effect the non-monk classes the most - which makes it no nerf at all, just purely retarded. My Spies miscast 75% of the time while my APU and PPU seem to have no problems at all o_O
From a technical point of view, it looks like something is fubar'ed with the player location/update code. If you run, hold crouch, cast spell, uncrouch, you can cast fine. If you run, stop then cast, you will fail. However, yesterday my Spy was at a full stop & crouching, and just randomly failed casting a heal...
Whatever it is, it is THE most annoying 'feature' I've ever seen - maybe that's KK's plan - frustrate the players using monks so much they never want to play them again - but then again, read paragraph one :rolleyes:
Id like to see Hotfix #140 this week with simply "Returned Spell Casting to Patch #135 Settings"
I hope we get an answer soon as ive died a few times becuase of this on my little spy which has made me not so pleased.
p.s. Has Item Tracking been officialy switched on and is it in a state that it fully works and we can recover items and such through support?
I'm trying to get answers on this. I can't promise answers to everying but let's see how it goes.
N
why find an answer when its been there all along ?
News Update 07/04/2005 (ENG) (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=126566)
Content update on Wednesday
The new update will contain a trophy system and two new night clubs for the city of Dome of York.
The trophy system will challenge Neocron 2 players to hunt Neocron's most dangerous creatures and create trophies from the remains of the slain beasts. Only the best and most dedicated hunters will be able to showcase all trophies in their own apartment as proof of their accomplishments.
To enhance the atmosphere in the city of Dome of York, two new night clubs will open their doors. To maximize the experience, they come with new music, dancers, drinks and several new quests.
PvP Server
We have not forgotten about the planned PvP server. We are still working on an optimal solution, that will hopefully please all of our customers.
Runcast
While we had planned to somewhat tone down runcasting, problems with casting while standing have appeared on the retail servers, which of course was not our intention. We are working hard on a fix for this problem.
Images:
Raptor Trophy
Scorpion Trophy
Apartment with trophies
Tiki Tornado
If they haven't changed spells in any other way, then the distance you can run should still be tied in with the damage % you get on the spell. So I figure there isn't anyway of being able to skill your points to get a better "run-casting distance" on your spells.
While yes, it does seem to affect the non-monks the worst. It still does affect them the most. Both my apu and my pe cannot move while casting their HAB or Shelter/Blessed Def. respectively. And of course, everyone loves being a turret ppu.
edit: Would also like to know why they wanted to "tone" it down. Even if it was meant as monk nerf. Surely KK realised that most spies/pes/tank can hardly move while casting some of their spells as it is.
And as everyone has said, noone was complaing about run-casting.
why find an answer when its been there all along ?
That's just an acknowledgement that there's a problem with the change but it doesn't say why the change is being made.
N
heres a hypothetical situation
- Will this change be permanent? (Watch your answer on this one...)
yep
*mass quitting of 90% of teh remaning population lmao
i am guessing that it will eventualy be fixed
heres a hypothetical situation
*mass quitting of 90% of teh remaning population lmao
i am guessing that it will eventualy be fixed
Spot the keyword lol :p
heres a hypothetical situation
- Will this change be permanent? (Watch your answer on this one...)
- yep
*mass quitting of 90% of teh remaning population lmao
which is probably the reason we wont get any answers for that...
There already is an answer to that question - no, the runcast change as it stands won't be permanent.
N
Thanks for the response Nid, I hope we get some answers soon. Naimex, Thanatos posted that update between the last two patches, whatever they tweaked in the last patch made little or no difference...which is why I am asking if they tested it on testserver...(don't expect much response on that one though).
I will be interested to hear the reason, because I've thought about it and I can't fathom what they are trying to achieve with it. If they meant to stop runcasting unless you have very high stats, while retaining walk-casting and still casting, then they have hit so wide of the mark that its laughable, and unless they reprogram how casting works, it affects the classes other than monks worse since their stats are lower for casting!
So unless there is a very good reason for it, I would want it hotfix-removed as soon as possible...
I also propose a standing invite to any GM or KK employee to come along to an op fight on terra and experience the frustration of casting and fatals in live action rather than on the test server.
lol compleatly ruined my fun on me hybreed, im basicaly stuck on me tank now huntin stuf with a chaincraft
Jesterthegreat
11-07-05, 20:48
if something was to our advantage it would get hot fixed.
this pisses off just about all of the customers who, lets face it, are mostly not the happiest of people. yet we havent got a hot fix even after the second patch made little to no difference.
for the love of god. if you dont know whats wrong with it, rollback the code you changed for spells until you work out what you fucked up.
Any form of runcast change is retarded. Its like taking the breaks off of people's cars if they are known to speed. Its not gonna stop them doing what they do, but its going to make them die a hell of a lot more often.
Jesterthegreat
11-07-05, 21:12
Any form of runcast change is retarded. Its like taking the breaks off of people's cars if they are known to speed. Its not gonna stop them doing what they do, but its going to make them die a hell of a lot more often.
ahahaha
fantastic analogy
ahahaha
fantastic analogy
Yeah, I said it on TS once, thought it would go sour, but then I was told to get it on the forum. Was waiting for the perfect time :p
That's just an acknowledgement that there's a problem with the change but it doesn't say why the change is being made.
N
Sorry to press the matter, but if what I posted wasnīt an explanation of why it was being changed, I donīt think I understood just exactly whatīs being referred to here.
Runcast
While we had planned to somewhat tone down runcasting, problems with casting while standing have appeared on the retail servers, which of course was not our intention. We are working hard on a fix for this problem
this is a part of the quote i made in the last post, telling that they had planned to tone down runcasting...
I would say that, THAT was the explanation to why they starting messing with it..
The only thing I can think of that could be "wanted" so to say, is the reason behind why KK/Devs thought it needed downtoning.
It has worked fine for a very very veeeery long time, so I canīt see why it would suddenly become a key issue?
And it does say that they you, are working on fixing it, which should mean that fixing the problem arisen IS a key issue, so I donīt see any information still needed, except that scenario, which I find hard to believe, but might just be the case in the end.
Oh and sorry I write it in this thread, but it is sorta where it belongs, even though it more or less directed at Nidhogg in hope of clarification of what I just wrote in this post according to his comment to my comment to the topic at hand.
Uhm.. yes.
I think people would like to know why runcasting is being toned down though.
N
Jesterthegreat
11-07-05, 23:45
I think people would like to know why runcasting is being toned down though.
N
yeah... its boned cos they nerfed runcasting, we know that.
what we want to know is why they nerffed runcasting.
go down the line "why, well why that? well why that?" til you find what kk was trying to fix / alter with this.
good luck nid ;)
yeah... its boned cos they nerfed runcasting, we know that.
what we want to know is why they nerffed runcasting.
go down the line "why, well why that? well why that?" til you find what kk was trying to fix / alter with this.
good luck nid ;)
Well Iīve never heard anyone complain about runcasting... so I canīt see any logic to it... but I guess they have something planned..
I mean, itīs not like a ppu cares.. ok so Iīm standing still... ouch.. I get hit one more time all the time whilst casting my spell...
They donīt take any damage they canīt outheal anyways, so why bother, only gain with this would be making APUs even more dependant on PPUs..
So, I donīt get it, but since itīs become a key issue, I have to assume someone has complained about it, and if itīs enough to make it a key issue, Iīll have to assume against personal opinion, that in fact it is a problem.
We can always boost it again if it screws up... :rolleyes:
Jesterthegreat
11-07-05, 23:51
Well Iīve never heard anyone complain about runcasting...
which is exactly why we wanna know kk's motivation for the decision :p
which is exactly why we wanna know kk's motivation for the decision :p
*coughs intelligently whilst pointing at the bottom of his post with a fancy red dot laser thingy*
(sighs) We'll see how it goes. Hopefully N's response of 'The Change Won't be Permanant' will not be 'We won't fix it for a few years, but it's not going to be permanant.'
naimex, I don't consider myself a good PPU. Means I have some issues with aiming, timing etc. Anyway, if I run up to someone to rebuff/heal, I _always_ miscast now, not because I misaimed, but because the server still handles me as moving. And, as usually, this becomes most important in "hot" situations, where buffs/heals are needed instantly. I can only extrapolate what it must be like in more laggy situations like OP wars; infact I don't even want to imagine this ...
There are things you can mess with, e.g. the power of the shields, heals and so on. There are things you shouldn't mess with. One is runcasting. It has a strong influence on the PPU spells, which are technically used by everyone bar pure APUs (btw the APU I talked to has no problems with this runcast problem; I assume it comes into play with antibuffs etc. which need some time to cast).
As a sidenote I doubt this runcast bug stands on its own. The servers have an increased lag regarding player updates in overall: Local lists which just don't match the obviously present players, the old issue with lifts, players getting rendered invisible, players standing at some location but being around the next two corners already, players popping out of thin air beside you etc.pp.
When runcasting, try just before you cast the spell to tap the backwards button, and then runcast as you would normally.
That little tap on the backwards button has helped me fix a lot of miscasts, of course I canīt say if it is that that makes it work, but thats what Iīve noticed I do when non mistcasting since the latest patches.
and it wonīt hurt to try.
:)
I think its becoming clear to many people that the spell casting is not related to skill points or whether you are running or walking, merely whether the server thinks you are in one place, hence the backwards step to intercept the server. I would still like to hear KK confirm this though.
There have beens rising issues of Fizzle, Lift bug, Local player not in windows, Players jumping several feet at a time, Door bug.
This can't all be related to a run cast nerf which no one has ever complained about!
Probably down to the server Load due to the item tracking and the fact theres a few more people on :rolleyes:
I would rather be able to move and cast than be able to replace my DS because of no item tracking. The current state ruins OP wars its now a game of chance not skill !! :(
Not only does it affect run-cast but standing still cast. My PPU can stand still and miscast a HH 7 times in a row, and she's not even getting shot at. As for my poor tank, that TL3 heal is a Holy Bitch :D
Not only does it affect run-cast but standing still cast. My PPU can stand still and miscast a HH 7 times in a row, and she's not even getting shot at. As for my poor tank, that TL3 heal is a Holy Bitch :D
^^ I must be the only one, not really affected by it... my spells work fine almost all the time..
- What was the intent of this change?
There has always been a check for the distance moved while casting a spell. If the distance was greater than the defined value, the spell would fail. However, it was recently discovered that the defined value did not work properly, allowing almost all spells to be cast while running. The intent of the recent change was to tone down the distance any character can move while casting a spell. Fast-casting spells should still be casteable on the run, medium while walking, and slow spells only while standing.
- How much testing of this change did you make on your internal test server?
Unfortunately the internal test server can not quite reproduce the environmental conditions (e.g. latency) on the live servers. The change seemed fine on the test server, but clearly isn't (yet) on the live servers. We have developed and tested additional checks that should ensure that the change works as intended in the live servers. This will be added in the next patch.
- Who was it meant to apply to (because at the moment it affects all characters). If it is aimed at monks, why did you not implement any of the other changes (Para...) that the community has suggested?
As indicated in the first reply, this is a general change (or rather bugfix) that affects any psi casts.
- Will this change be permanent? (Watch your answer on this one...)
Not in the current form, but yes, it will probably be permanent once it works as intended.
- Can the effect be counteracted by putting more points into certain stats, or is it regardless of skill (again, consider the implications if it is the latter).
- If the effect can be counteracted with skill points, when will you be releasing all characters Int and Psi skills so we may reconfigure our characters to adapt to your change?
No, it has nothing to do with skill or spell quality values.
- Can you confirm the spell fizzle is NOT related to the switch on of item tracking, and the addmitted performance hit which then ensued?
These are not related.
Thanks Thanatos, i hope the fix of the fix comes soon :) i guess this shows on the discovery of this that you and the other guys at KK have began to sift through the countless lines of code for NC to weed out the bugs both big and small, with this response and others across the forum is it to be taken that item tracking is fully functional and is a option for lost items? as i havnt seen a proper official "THIS WORKS" post.
Thankyou for the full reply :)
A little clarification though, if the chance of failing the cast is not related to skills and points, why did people (previous to this patch) mod and increase their casting skills in order to enable runcasting? I am thinking for example the Private Eye, who balances his psi points to be able to run cast a heal.
Are you saying that this serverside check is overriding those skills?
Cheers,
Sel
There has always been a check for the distance moved while casting a spell. If the distance was greater than the defined value, the spell would fail. However, it was recently discovered that the defined value did not work properly, allowing almost all spells to be cast while running. The intent of the recent change was to tone down the distance any character can move while casting a spell. Fast-casting spells should still be casteable on the run, medium while walking, and slow spells only while standing.
Unfortunately the internal test server can not quite reproduce the environmental conditions (e.g. latency) on the live servers. The change seemed fine on the test server, but clearly isn't (yet) on the live servers. We have developed and tested additional checks that should ensure that the change works as intended in the live servers. This will be added in the next patch.
As indicated in the first reply, this is a general change (or rather bugfix) that affects any psi casts.
Not in the current form, but yes, it will probably be permanent once it works as intended.
No, it has nothing to do with skill or spell quality values.
These are not related.
Ok first I am very glad we got a reply.
But KK i'm sorry to say but you are most likely the worst people I have ever seen at balancing a game! The old spell casting was fine. The spell power was a little high but the casting was fine. And is there any answer to why the server is so laggy (like I see a melee tank about 50-60 ft back from me and swiping at the air and i'm taking damage) This needs a big fix other wise I can see alot of people quiting.
Thanks for the reply Thanatos, I think you put a lot of minds at rest. Keep up the public postings!
Unfortunately the internal test server can not quite reproduce the environmental conditions (e.g. latency) on the live servers. The change seemed fine on the test server, but clearly isn't (yet) on the live servers. We have developed and tested additional checks that should ensure that the change works as intended in the live servers. This will be added in the next patch.
Isn't this a good argument for having the public test server back?
Isn't this a good argument for having the public test server back?
I really wish the TS was back for this sort of thing...
Jesterthegreat
12-07-05, 19:14
There has always been a check for the distance moved while casting a spell. If the distance was greater than the defined value, the spell would fail. However, it was recently discovered that the defined value did not work properly, allowing almost all spells to be cast while running. The intent of the recent change was to tone down the distance any character can move while casting a spell. Fast-casting spells should still be casteable on the run, medium while walking, and slow spells only while standing. when there are countless changes suggested by the community for countless things... why "fix" things that people like as they are? if i have to stand still to cast spells on my PE then thats the final change i will witness as a paying customer. i realise that more people will be relieved by this than saddened... but i'll say it anyway.
Unfortunately the internal test server can not quite reproduce the environmental conditions (e.g. latency) on the live servers. The change seemed fine on the test server, but clearly isn't (yet) on the live servers. We have developed and tested additional checks that should ensure that the change works as intended in the live servers. This will be added in the next patch. how about working on fixing that instead? either by inviting some people, from various nations and with various pings, to test things... or by making it open.
As indicated in the first reply, this is a general change (or rather bugfix) that affects any psi casts. "bugfix"...
Not in the current form, but yes, it will probably be permanent once it works as intended. how do you intend it to work? how well / how far should we be able to move while healing for example?
No, it has nothing to do with skill or spell quality values. would i be wrong in thinking that your skill values effect how well you runcast? meaning it indirectly effects the new nerf?
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