View Full Version : the 'medieval wizards' argument is dumb
Mechanicus
05-07-05, 13:00
psychics have been part of post apocalypic settings for longer than neocron
i havnt played fallout but did a search on a walkthrough for it, searched the word 'psychic', yep they were in there
Yess, but they had "psionic" abilities, not D&D style wizard powers like T-Bolt and Fire-Wall and so on. THey were disticntly psionic, wherea ours are just wizards with a differnt name.
the 'medieval wizards' argument is dumb
No, not really. Cause that's what they are.
I still like them being ingame, though they are overpowered in their current state.
btw, Remove Para :rolleyes:
Bugs said it best (see my sig)
Dribble Joy
05-07-05, 13:26
What is the difference between an assassin using a plasma rifle or one using a poisoned dart, from a tree or from atop a neon sign.
The argument is largely irrelevant, they are the same, only the setting changes.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 13:27
Yess, but they had "psionic" abilities, not D&D style wizard powers like T-Bolt and Fire-Wall and so on. THey were disticntly psionic, wherea ours are just wizards with a differnt name.
exactly. dressing it up in a suitable name doesnt make it right.
Dr Strange
05-07-05, 13:44
think we can get an Crahn NPC named Merlin?
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 13:45
think we can get an Crahn NPC named Merlin?
can we rename the "god" Crahn to Merlin?
Dr Strange
05-07-05, 13:49
What is the difference between an assassin using a plasma rifle or one using a poisoned dart, from a tree or from atop a neon sign.
The argument is largely irrelevant, they are the same, only the setting changes.
Say it with me, "genre"
How many cyberpunk games have some tribal guy hanging in trees shooting poisonous blow dart at someone? Granted Shadowrun had some things that were a stretch even for "cyberpunk" but you didn't see the above.
You're right, they are the same, but the game is not. I mean one of the larger points various KK staff makes is Neocron isn't like "other MMO's with elves" and such right? Yet, there are all powerful monks who have powers damn near exactly the same as a wizard, right down to some of the names. You shouldn't be picky and choosey if you're gonna borrow from a genre, do it entirely, or not at all.
Dribble Joy
05-07-05, 14:41
Setting/genre, same thing in the end, people can call them what they want, or believe that they are different, but the essence of what they are, what roles they fulfil and how they fit into the scene is the same.
Tend to agree with DJ on this - any effects the monks cause - such as fires etc - is all down to them using psionics - not artsy fartsy wizardry.
Fireball etc - yes it's a fireball... it doesn't say MAGIC fireball does it? It just says fireball... cos... it's a ball... of fire... created by psionic energy... ro summat. Whats "magical" about that?
no thats just pirokenisis, a valid and recognised form of kenisis (if there is such as think as valid and recognised lol)
parashock should be chnaged to muscle spasm =] funny watch ppl tiwtch as they are running at u
no thats just pirokenisis, a valid and recognised form of kenisis (if there is such as think as valid and recognised lol)
parashock should be chnaged to muscle spasm =] funny watch ppl tiwtch as they are running at u
A name is irrelevant - As long as the premise is that they are psionic attacks.
I could throw a pen at you and call it fire ball - it would still be a pen.
I can throw a psionic shock at you - it would still be a psionic shock, even if you called it a moose.
God damnit kk what the fuck nerf moose!
RogerRamjet
05-07-05, 18:53
From what ive gathered, its not "magic" at all. The story of the monks starts when they lived underground and developed a bond with "Gaya" which lets them manipulate the elements and such. Its more like The Force than magic.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 19:16
From what ive gathered, its not "magic" at all. The story of the monks starts when they lived underground and developed a bond with "Gaya" which lets them manipulate the elements and such. Its more like The Force than magic.
we've all heard it.
living in a cave caused them to learn how to bring down lightning which they had never seen out of a sky which they had never seen.
in fact in the history where they kill a guy in an instant kind of shows how stupid the situation now is.
I agree. Monks should do this:
When one of the warriors hits one of the cave dwellers on the head just for fun his companions witness how the warrior is raised about nine feet into the air by invisible hands, just before he explodes from inside out.
:angel:
Monks should be able to push, pull, and move (grip) like force powers and make people explode from the inside out for fun. So instead of medieval wizards we'll have jedi without lightsabers.
Someone said something about psionics in fallout... there isn't psionics in fallout. There's extreme luck (seriously extreme) that makes it look like psionics... but that's about it. There's... plasma weapons, gauss weapons, robots, powered armor, mutants, super mutants, miniguns, and Garden of Eden Creation Kits, but no magic/psionics. Well there's a prophecy and such but that doesn't count as anything. Oh, there's aliens in fallout too! But no space exploration.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 19:33
I agree. Monks should do this: thats the stupid difference a ppu currently makes in combat. thats the point.
Monks should be able to push, pull, and move (grip) like force powers and make people explode from the inside out for fun. So instead of medieval wizards we'll have jedi without lightsabers. interesting idea... i imagine it would not be easy to code into a game that hasn't been designed with that in mind though.
Someone said something about psionics in fallout... there isn't psionics in fallout. There's extreme luck (seriously extreme) that makes it look like psionics... but that's about it. There's... plasma weapons, gauss weapons, robots, powered armor, mutants, super mutants, miniguns, and Garden of Eden Creation Kits, but no magic/psionics. Well there's a prophecy and such but that doesn't count as anything. Oh, there's aliens in fallout too! But no space exploration.
yeah i couldnt think of a single "magic / psionics" in fallout or fallout 2 (havent played tactics... played the demo and its just not the same)
thats the stupid difference a ppu currently makes in combat. thats the point.
wait wait what? ppus? I don't think I was talking about ppus, I thought we were talking about magic vs psionics? :confused:
interesting idea... i imagine it would not be easy to code into a game that hasn't been designed with that in mind though.
it'd be easy. here's what you could do... make an attack that pushes a LOT (force movement like bullet weapons and para bolt do). Then make one that does the same, but negative push. Make it so if they're pushed/pulled into an object, they take damage based on how hard they were pushed (hardness determined by level of spell and how far they were flung, being closer to the point of origin means more damage). Then throw in force lightning because if the Emperor and Tom Cruise ( http://waxy.org/random/video/Tom_Cruise_Kills_Oprah.mov ) can do it, why not psi monks?
yeah i couldnt think of a single "magic / psionics" in fallout or fallout 2 (havent played tactics... played the demo and its just not the same)
A lot of people didn't like tactics but I did. The combat system is 100x better than fallout 2. Ever start a fight in new reno in fallout2? omg... 3 hrs later it's your turn. In tactics it's realtime and works perfectly I think. The story is a side story from the main thing in fo1 and fo2, taking place between them and away from the west coast of america, in kansas and chicago I think. Anyway it's worth playing, it has similar humor to fo1 and fo2 with more funny and random encounters.
I actually haven't played fo1, but someone told me about it and you find out enough about fo1 in fo2.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 19:52
wait wait what? ppus? I don't think I was talking about ppus, I thought we were talking about magic vs psionics? :confused:
actually you said "monks should do this" which is not a comparison between magic and psionics...
it'd be easy. here's what you could do... make an attack that pushes a LOT (force movement like bullet weapons and para bolt do). Then make one that does the same, but negative push. Make it so if they're pushed/pulled into an object, they take damage based on how hard they were pushed (hardness determined by level of spell and how far they were flung, being closer to the point of origin means more damage). Then throw in force lightning because if the Emperor and Tom Cruise ( http://waxy.org/random/video/Tom_Cruise_Kills_Oprah.mov ) can do it, why not psi monks? kk cant even make jumpping in combat visable. look at drones and the netcode. at how 90% of the time they are shooting through a wall on your screen. hell even mobs shoot through walls. i really doubt push / pull is feasable. this isnt flaming... its fact. i havent seen anyone talk about this ever... so theres a small chance kk didnt know. so nid, when you read this, pass on the message: the netcode destroys jumpping in combat. thanks.
A lot of people didn't like tactics but I did. The combat system is 100x better than fallout 2. Ever start a fight in new reno in fallout2? omg... 3 hrs later it's your turn. In tactics it's realtime and works perfectly I think. The story is a side story from the main thing in fo1 and fo2, taking place between them and away from the west coast of america, in kansas and chicago I think. Anyway it's worth playing, it has similar humor to fo1 and fo2 with more funny and random encounters.
I actually haven't played fo1, but someone told me about it and you find out enough about fo1 in fo2.
the demo blew. i may try the game at some point.
oh and fo2 > fo1 by a long way. fo1 was good... but if you compare it to fo2 its not even the same league.
actually you said "monks should do this" which is not a comparison between magic and psionics... Well monks should do that instead what they do now... as in psionics instead of magic. :p Sorry I left out a lot of words that I probably shouldn't have as this isn't really a discussion, it's a forum post.
kk cant even make jumpping in combat visable. look at drones and the netcode. at how 90% of the time they are shooting through a wall on your screen. hell even mobs shoot through walls. i really doubt push / pull is feasable. this isnt flaming... its fact
Well it works now it's not a matter of making something new it's a matter of modifying existing spells to amplify certain aspects and remove others. Pushing already exists in game, it would not be hard to make it work as a push/pull spell.
the demo blew. i may try the game at some point.
never played the demo. On a side note, FoT uses R. Lee Ermy as a voice actor, therefore it has to be awesome.
oh and fo2 > fo1 by a long way. fo1 was good... but if you compare it to fo2 its not even the same league. That's what people tell me.
oh and fo2 > fo1 by a long way. fo1 was good... but if you compare it to fo2 its not even the same league.
General opinion and the vast majority of the fallout community disagrees with you
fallout 2 showed us all that less is more.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 20:42
General opinion and the vast majority of the fallout community disagrees with you
fallout 2 showed us all that less is more.
if you say so. the fact that Koshinn has heard the same thing from others disagrees with you though.
if you say so. the fact that Koshinn has heard the same thing from others disagrees with you though.
It's possible my friends and you happen to be in the minority however. I dunno, I have no desire to play fo1 though.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 21:06
It's possible my friends and you happen to be in the minority however. I dunno, I have no desire to play fo1 though.
yeah. it sure is.
you can pretty much take anything i say as opinion unless i say it's a fact.
cos thats what it is. i saw what i think.
$tormbringer
05-07-05, 21:06
1.) Anyone who says Fallout had anything like psionics should get lobotomized with a rusty spoon.
And NO, the guys at the end of Fallout 1, just before the Master weren't psionics, they were lunatics.
2.) Tactics was fun, not as much as FO 1 or FO2, but still fun.
3.) It's neither FO1 > FO2, nor is it FO1 < FO2, it's rather FO1 = FO2.
Both had there good parts.
2.) Tactics was fun, not as much as FO 1 or FO2, but still fun.
3.) It's neither FO1 > FO2, nor is it FO1 < FO2, it's rather FO1 = FO2.
Both had there good parts.
Tactics was a different genre of game than Fo1 or Fo2... it was more of a tactical squad-based game with rpg elements than an rpg with combat (like fo1/2). It looks similar but it's completely different. If you enjoy rpgs more than tactical combat games you won't like FoT as much as Fo1/2, but if you enjoy both genres a lot then FoT is definately worth playing.
ya, dats wat i'm sayin, shit been along before neocron.
ROFL ... now you guys get started on REALISM again?
Realism in Neocron ... what game are you playing? Not Neocron for sure.
...concerning the medieval argument: you go back to your forrest with them bow & arrows... simply changing the setting or the way you lable it (plasma gun etc..) does not make it anything else. :rolleyes:
Neocron is not post-apocalyptic .. its more or a futuristic/fantasy setting no matter how it's getting marketed. Twilight War is a good example for a more pa like setting.
This entire remove-monks whine by a few ppl is funny tho'
Please add the following to your remove list:
-remove Faction Crahn Sect + NPCs
-remove Crahn Catheadral Map
-remove PP3 Church, Oz 9 Map
-remove Acolytes, Preachers, Arachnids, Insane Monks, Swamp Mages, SCs
-remove plenty player-skins and models
-remove 50+ armor parts, implants, items etc.
-remove psi-skill jones missions + locations, remove advisors
-remove the entire background-story
-remove parts of the hud
-remove 170+ weapons, sprites, fx...
I'm sure I missed some stuff.. but never the less.. this should keep KK busy for the next 1-2 years ... great idea!
If you're unhappy with the balancing say so and stop ranting. If you're serious about this "monks dont fit the scenario -> remove them" and balancing is NOT what drives you.. this is the wrong game. They are a major part of the scenario and fit well into it.
mechanicus just posted his little hybrid setup on the forum i saw.. theres his reason for being against fixing monks...
some of the people who like monks the way they are, just enjoy playing them or actually think they are fine. but id say a majority know they are overpowered and thats why they play them, so they can do better in PVP since they can't on other classes... its just the truth....
theres a lot more reasons that NC is just a pos right now anyway, its reeallly reallly not worth playign at all atm, and monks are definetly up there on the list of reasons why.
Mechanicus
06-07-05, 00:14
lol i posted that hyb setup too see if its viable because im clueless about monks, ive never played a combat monk, ever, i fancied trying one out after hearing all the fuss, all that ive ever done monkwise is i have a ppu with around 80 base psi that leveled while i was babysitting clanmates in a cave or would take out PvEing with clanmates when i still enjoyed doing that stuff and hadnt seen everything yet because nobody else had a ppu at the time
im a long time PE and tank player
God damn you guys need to find somthing elce to whine about!
yeah exactly whenever its something you disagree with its whining
you admit they are overpowered and still defend them?
There is NO way a good anything can kill a hybrid solo if the hybrid is good.
I had a hyb for a few months and it was so powerful that it got boring killing people
Fianly some one that can see its unbalenced. God seeing how many ppl think its fine that apus can kill some one like that makes me sick.
Almost all of us want the need for ppu's lessend
Damn, so many people [think] that ppus are not over powerd o_O.
This is not about being able to kill ppus, it's about being able to kill the people they are supporting.
the whining thing and your avatar is just like the personal attacks thing, people cant stand anyone have differing opinions so they insult them..i think i will 'whine' all i like..
(i bet i can search for every one of the monk supporters here and find them posting how monks are not balanced. but im too lazy to do more then one. STOP DEFENDING MONKS)
Yes I do not like the role PPU's play but I don't think they should be removed. I have made many sugestions to make monks alot more balanced. But I don't hijack every thread on the forum's with my "anti monk!!".
I agree. Monks should do this:
:angel:
Monks should be able to push, pull, and move (grip) like force powers and make people explode from the inside out for fun. So instead of medieval wizards we'll have jedi without lightsabers.
Someone said something about psionics in fallout... there isn't psionics in fallout. There's extreme luck (seriously extreme) that makes it look like psionics... but that's about it. There's... plasma weapons, gauss weapons, robots, powered armor, mutants, super mutants, miniguns, and Garden of Eden Creation Kits, but no magic/psionics. Well there's a prophecy and such but that doesn't count as anything. Oh, there's aliens in fallout too! But no space exploration.
THERE IS A MUTANT IN THE MARIPOSA MILITARY BASE WHO SAYS HE IS A WIZARD AND SPAWNS CREATURES....MAGIC!!!!!!
Anyone who didnt know that is an insult to a fallout fan. Darnit fallout has no magic you say...bah.
But agree...remove monks please
Gotterdammerung
06-07-05, 06:59
I want to be a pirate
Dr Strange
06-07-05, 07:08
I want to be a pirate
Johnny Depp pirate or Dennis Hoffman pirate?
THERE IS A MUTANT IN THE MARIPOSA MILITARY BASE WHO SAYS HE IS A WIZARD AND SPAWNS CREATURES....MAGIC!!!!!!
Anyone who didnt know that is an insult to a fallout fan. Darnit fallout has no magic you say...bah.
Just because he says he's a wizard doesn't mean he is. Do you think David Blaine really walks up walls magically?
Here's what I did in fo2:
1. Kill tribesman with a spear (not fists).
2. Go to redding pick up an SMG.... or was it klamath?
3. Go to San Francisco (took a while.. it isn't easy, trust me... I saved every 3 squares on the world map) to get the Brotherhood of Steel quest to go to Navarro
4. Go to Navarro and get PA, Plasma weapons and like 5 levels for doing almost nothing
5. Explore the rest of the game (except the mb)
6. Go on tanker to oil rig to win the game.
Dr Strange
06-07-05, 07:17
Just because he says he's a wizard doesn't mean he is. Do you think David Blaine really walks up walls magically?
Chris Rock explains David Blaine the best..
"Are we so desperate we fall for a trickless magician? What's his latest trick, 'Im gonna sit in this box for a month and not eat' shit that aint no trick thats called living in the ghetto. Pull a rabbit out of a hat, saw a lady in half, but don't try this bullshit on us!"
quoted as best I could remember
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 07:48
I want to be a pirate
keep it on topic ffs...
Asurmen Spec Op
06-07-05, 08:36
I want to be a pirate Be a medival wizard pirate! You can cast holy lightning and parashock then plunder them
(i bet i can search for every one of the monk supporters here and find them posting how monks are not balanced. but im too lazy to do more then one. STOP DEFENDING MONKS)
Try it on me.
ok... not as easy guessing since you play a ppu
I remember in NC1 you could raid MB/TG and the people you were fighting would only bring a PPU if you had one. Its almost as if people preferred fighter characters then, than they do now. I'd remember raiding MB and getting a completely unbuffed APU and a Spy come after me, whereas now you just get [insert class with gun] and a PPU.thats sorta anti ppu ... although its wrong, you get [insert apu with holy lightning] and a ppu. but it does imply you admitting fights are more fun without ppus...
but i love stuff like this
If you don't like monks, don't play the gameits the same as if you dont like FRE's dont play the game... something obviously bugged but KK cant/wont ever fix. but i dont see people complaining when someone whines about FRE's...
Original monk
06-07-05, 10:19
some of the people who like monks the way they are, just enjoy playing them or actually think they are fine. but id say a majority know they are overpowered and thats why they play them, so they can do better in PVP since they can't on other classes... its just the truth....
and if you remove monks they (them bandwagoners youre talking about) will yump on the next class they found overpowerd whereafter you gonna keep whining till they remove the next class you find overpowerd ? droners ? melleetanks ? ravagertanks ? healinglightspy's or PE's ? dunno
for a few months i have a lowtech paineaserPE now and i must say there pisseasy to play, easy to level and cheap to get gear for ... i killed atleast as many people with it as on any hybrid or apu i have (i yust love frying monks with my full pierce paineaser, stealthing behind there backs and suprising em, fun fun) ... also i died atleast the same amount as i have on my monks :P so i dont know why people keep telling that PE's are so hard to play or need skill to play lol ... cause they need to wait 1 millisec before there reticule locks o.O mwookay :rolleyes:
edit: i yust see my PE as a hybridmonk with decent resists/armour and a pain easer, i like em yeah :)
Asurmen Spec Op
06-07-05, 12:06
and if you remove monks they (them bandwagoners youre talking about) will yump on the next class they found overpowerd whereafter you gonna keep whining till they remove the next class you find overpowerd ? droners ? melleetanks ? ravagertanks ? healinglightspy's or PE's ? dunno
for a few months i have a lowtech paineaserPE now and i must say there pisseasy to play, easy to level and cheap to get gear for ... i killed atleast as many people with it as on any hybrid or apu i have (i yust love frying monks with my full pierce paineaser, stealthing behind there backs and suprising em, fun fun) ... also i died atleast the same amount as i have on my monks :P so i dont know why people keep telling that PE's are so hard to play or need skill to play lol ... cause they need to wait 1 millisec before there reticule locks o.O mwookay :rolleyes:
edit: i yust see my PE as a hybridmonk with decent resists/armour and a pain easer, i like em yeah :) nerf apu tanks
Mechanicus
06-07-05, 12:06
then on top of the PE has stealth SHIT REMOVE PES DEFINATELY OVERPOWERED
Bitchy whiney nerds at Everques, bitchy whiney nerds at Neocron, only thing that changes is the game.
Come on, you are hanging on straws here, try something better than "monks should be removed because they are just like mages" fucking remove weapons and put guys fight with harsh words that is something that has not been done before in a MMOG. So what if they are like mages? Big fucking deal, Guns are just like bows and arrows, they shoot projectiles, only difference is that they are more compact and the projectiles are propelled by gas instead of piece of string.
I'm glad there are monks in this game makes variation to the guy #1 with big gun versus guy #2 with big gun, go play CS if you want to play against same opponent day in day out.
But granted, at current Monks are very much in between, taking an example from other MMOGs like WoW, Priests, they are a healer class but they can fight, and in fact shadow priests are THE best PvP class if you know how to play it, compared to pure PPU monk in NC, he can't do anything other than Para and shoot with some kind of gun that he can barely use. Mages in WoW, they destroy things in the blink of an eye, but let that mofo come close to you and you are more than dead, you are vaporized, compared to pure APU monk in NC, they can do insane amounts of damage but not only that but they have more armor than jesus, with very minimal gimp you can get yourself some very handy healing tricks.
If reakktor just took monks and either a) made them just to be a support class or b) made APU and PPU monks two separate classes so they could more accurately specify what they can use and what they can not or c) just take ALL high tier spells away (holy) and make them a hybrid (my favorite)
I have spoken
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 13:23
then on top of the PE has stealth SHIT REMOVE PES DEFINATELY OVERPOWERED
i wont disagree there... but remove it (or rework it) as a whole. its pretty much an LE switch for PE's and spies.
oh look... i play both a ppu and a PE and i can admit that both stealth and monks need sorting.
:edit: @ mag find me one single class which sways the course of the entire battle as much as a ppu, and is also as high defence as a ppu.
in any game.
cos i've played lots of games and havent even come close.
Mechanicus
06-07-05, 13:29
the stealth fix would be easy, just make it so people in stealth mode can still be targeted and hit by weapons but it uses an invisible reticle and doesnt have a targetbox (like when you target a greenman or null npc)
ofc this is a situation where monks really would destroy the balance as they would be able to hit stealthers too easily, so just dont let em hit stealthers at all :)
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 13:32
the stealth fix would be easy, just make it so people in stealth mode can still be targeted and hit by weapons but it uses an invisible reticle and doesnt have a targetbox (like when you target a greenman or null npc)
ofc this is a situation where monks really would destroy the balance as they would be able to hit stealthers too easily, so just dont let em hit stealthers at all :)
just another reason to give monks a reticle tbh...
but no. thats not an idea i would go for anyway, as it doesnt really solve the issue.
stealth should have a warm up time. pull it out, click it, in 5 secs it activates. would mean it could still be used for recon... could still be used to sneak spies into an op... but coulnt be spammed mid fight.
:edit: @ mag find me one single class which sways the course of the entire battle as much as a ppu, and is also as high defence as a ppu.
in any game.
cos i've played lots of games and havent even come close.
I can't point you out a class, and that is why I said "But granted, at current Monks are very much in between" as in very much not well rounded with the rest of the game, those WoW examples were there to give insight how these kind of things have been overcome in other games.
But I'm very sure that when a good paladin/shaman or priest enters a battle in WoW it can very well turn the tide of the whole battle, or a good commander comes to the outpost war in Planetside he can turn the tide. Ofcourse these two examples were made assuming that the two sides are evenly matched, since not even in neocron if the match is something like 50 defenders and 10 or 20 attackers one single PPU at the attackers side can't turn the tide.
Just be reasonable and stop trying to find excuses to diss the monk, try to actually make good case on how to improve something, trying to offer a biased view does not do any good to anyone and I believe that is why many of KK staff don't read/comment to these kinds of posts, people just talk bullshit for the sake of talking bullshit it is in the human nature.
Mechanicus
06-07-05, 13:36
um, same applies to my fix, all yours will do is make em give up fighting and pull the stealthtool to get away 5 seconds sooner and a crappy pe might die to a gank now and then
my fix keeps it as a tactical tool and its just as good as ever for sneaking but it makes it risky as you can be hit (not easily, no visible reticle, no visible targetbox, almost invisible) but you cant hit back or heal, so the PEs that just slap on a heal and stealth wouldnt be able to do that anymore as they would be too visible
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 13:43
Just be reasonable and stop trying to find excuses to diss the monk, try to actually make good case on how to improve something, trying to offer a biased view does not do any good to anyone and I believe that is why many of KK staff don't read/comment to these kinds of posts, people just talk bullshit for the sake of talking bullshit it is in the human nature.
you mean "excuses" like how they totally inbalance the game?
like the only thing that they are outperformed in is hacknet, sniping and tradeskilling? (by sniping a mean long range... i'm well aware they arent good with HC weapons, i am speaking broadly)
like how 1 PPU and 1 APU can kill 4 tanks with ease?
FN offered very good, very well thought out suggestions. i dont agree with parts of it but theres alot of damn good suggestions in there.
:edit: @ above add a combat to stealth for everyone. make flashlights make them more visable. RP wise the light is refracted into a blue cloud, so more light would equal more blueness, so it makes sense. means flashlights, or flashlight modded weapons have a use.
another option would be to make stealth cause SI (much like a drone destroyed) and make it only usable with 0% SI. would mean that though you could use it to escape once... it would only be once (SI starts when tool de-activates so it doesnt run while stealthed)
Mechanicus
06-07-05, 14:07
or they could just make each 2 stealths = the drugflash from 1 short drug, and not allow them to stealth whine drugflashed
so they get one tactical use and as soon as they start chaining it their either gonna have to get somewhere safe fast or get pokes
Yeah well first of all, the approach is way wrong, most of you are offering KK a solution that they can not make, remove monks, what is up with that? Hell if you made me a solution to remove a center piece to be removed from my game design, I'd remove you.
And yes, I think PPUs are way overpowered in any combo, but then again I do not think APU is no where near overpowered, since I have killed a slew of them alone, so the obvious problem being that the support PPUs give to the remaining classes tip the balance to the PPU teams favor, ok so here we can see that obviously the formula that KK created for the Monk spells (normal, blessed, holy and rare) is flawed, but even then it is flawed on the PPUs side, I have several times recommended that KK allow hybrids by the cost of their spell efficiency, since becoming a valid class to play in solo and support in team, since many say that playing APU solo is very frustrating since he can die just like that, and on the other hand you CAN'T play PPU as solo since you can't hurt anything.
Ok, after this kind of scenario we can see that we have a problem remaining, once again one class is above all in terms of useability, he can fill all the spots, as in damage maker and support person, then we get to the WoW Priest solution, a sacrifice to make for your combat ability, since I'm a shadow priest, I have spent all my talent points in shadow talens, making me not so good healer/buffer compared to a priest with talents spent on healing/buffing, so like back in the days of NS beta 4 we had the exotic psi use skill, which was a great idea badly realized, using same kind of approach we could put in s third psi use skill "tree" where we put things like para and rez and so on, so they had to decide if they wanted to "venture" to that useful exotic psi use tree they'd have to sacrifice either attack or passice psi use, it was a valid workaround, it just missed it's potential.
Now you might ask, how my solution is different from current status, or the monk back in beta 4, why can't he still go with the apu or ppu tree solely. Well when we remove the holy spells, there is no point in using all your points in apu or ppu tree, the points should go just as far that if you want, you can get two of these skill trees full (again with the cost of the third tree AND things like psi pool), if further balancing is needed then KK could do a workaround to put skill in INT where the monk should spend points to increase his psi pool regen ratio, rate of fire or the range of his spells, all valid offerings.
just have to add this: Jester your idea is great, but I don't really see how it has anything to do with monks since they are the ones we are talking about. There are too many questions raised by the idea of eveyone having stealth, but as it works against monks, it works against everyone else too, so it can cause a grief in un-needed places like balancing of the remaining classes.
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 19:14
Yeah well first of all, the approach is way wrong, most of you are offering KK a solution that they can not make, remove monks, what is up with that? Hell if you made me a solution to remove a center piece to be removed from my game design, I'd remove you.
And yes, I think PPUs are way overpowered in any combo, but then again I do not think APU is no where near overpowered, since I have killed a slew of them alone, so the obvious problem being that the support PPUs give to the remaining classes tip the balance to the PPU teams favor, ok so here we can see that obviously the formula that KK created for the Monk spells (normal, blessed, holy and rare) is flawed, but even then it is flawed on the PPUs side, I have several times recommended that KK allow hybrids by the cost of their spell efficiency, since becoming a valid class to play in solo and support in team, since many say that playing APU solo is very frustrating since he can die just like that, and on the other hand you CAN'T play PPU as solo since you can't hurt anything.
Ok, after this kind of scenario we can see that we have a problem remaining, once again one class is above all in terms of useability, he can fill all the spots, as in damage maker and support person, then we get to the WoW Priest solution, a sacrifice to make for your combat ability, since I'm a shadow priest, I have spent all my talent points in shadow talens, making me not so good healer/buffer compared to a priest with talents spent on healing/buffing, so like back in the days of NS beta 4 we had the exotic psi use skill, which was a great idea badly realized, using same kind of approach we could put in s third psi use skill "tree" where we put things like para and rez and so on, so they had to decide if they wanted to "venture" to that useful exotic psi use tree they'd have to sacrifice either attack or passice psi use, it was a valid workaround, it just missed it's potential.
Now you might ask, how my solution is different from current status, or the monk back in beta 4, why can't he still go with the apu or ppu tree solely. Well when we remove the holy spells, there is no point in using all your points in apu or ppu tree, the points should go just as far that if you want, you can get two of these skill trees full (again with the cost of the third tree AND things like psi pool), if further balancing is needed then KK could do a workaround to put skill in INT where the monk should spend points to increase his psi pool regen ratio, rate of fire or the range of his spells, all valid offerings.
just have to add this: Jester your idea is great, but I don't really see how it has anything to do with monks since they are the ones we are talking about. There are too many questions raised by the idea of eveyone having stealth, but as it works against monks, it works against everyone else too, so it can cause a grief in un-needed places like balancing of the remaining classes.
i've thought about the idea of bringing exotic psi use back for a while... it could be a good way to balance it.
if you split the PPU skills into 2 seperate "trees". shelter in one, deflecter in another for example. this would mean that PPU's would in fact be hyb's of the 2 PPU skills. it would also mean that the current hybs would have to choose to try to be all 3, or sacrifise something.
of course this wouldnt solve my main complaint about monks... which is the importance, and the effect of PPU's. so it would have to go hand in hand with something else.
effectively tyhis would make everyone a hybrid of sorts... but a ppu hyb would effectively be what we now call a PPU. if the APU skill tree was made harder to cap, this would mean an APU would have to go pure to get APU like damage... or he could become a shelter or deflector hybrid.
heals are a grey issue though... maybe have heals in both PPU and the 3rd skill (exotic unless we wanna rename it). or maybe put it in the deflector skill tree (whichever that is) so a hyb couldnt have a heal and a shelter.
:edit: @ mag find me one single class which sways the course of the entire battle as much as a ppu, and is also as high defence as a ppu.
in any game.
cos i've played lots of games and havent even come close.
<- not mag but...
Paladins in WoW if they're specced for healing instead of doing damage. Best healers in the game, best survivability in the game. They have two 12 second invulnerabilities, on 5 min and 3 min timers and two abilities on 1 min timers that put someone out of the fight for 6 seconds each. They also are tied for the best natural survivability in the game (as in just standing there not using any skills/spells).
Kind of like PPU + APU, Rogue + Paladin team can take out 5 people without a healer easilly. Even if they have a healer, the rogue can take out their healer super quick.
Now PPUs are the only real healer in NC so they have a huge advantage over anything else that can heal while a Paladin is only marginally better at healing than other classes, but their survivability is awesome. They aren't godly, they have an offense so their best defense in the game isn't as overwhelming as a PPU's. But that means in a 2v2 when the paladin team kills the first enemy, they can actually both fight the 2nd one.
Mechanicus
06-07-05, 19:18
jester wouldnt that fuck over PEs?
well, i suppose not too badly if the heal was in the shelter half, as a PE gets good force/piercing without a deflector
but if it wasnt in the deflector side it would fuck over tanks...
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 19:29
t'is just a rough idea :p
i'm sure it has many more flaws than that one... which is why i havent made threads campaigning about it... i was just showing that i have thought about the issue and am not screaming "remove monks". i dont want the removed, i want them balanced.
:edit: @ kosh that is nothing like the level of defence (for more than 24 secs at least :p) or effect of a para spamming ppu.
t'is just a rough idea :p
i'm sure it has many more flaws than that one... which is why i havent made threads campaigning about it... i was just showing that i have thought about the issue and am not screaming "remove monks". i dont want the removed, i want them balanced.
:edit: @ kosh that is nothing like the level of defence (for more than 24 secs at least :p) or effect of a para spamming ppu.
Well it is when a rogue can kill any other healer in the game (besides a druid in bear form, which can't heal anymore) in about 7 seconds. And Paladins can contribute to damage while PPUs can only do so in an indirect way, DB is far less of a damage contribution than an Arcanite Reaper Paladin with SoCommand.
and if you remove monks they (them bandwagoners youre talking about) will yump on the next class they found overpowerd whereafter you gonna keep whining till they remove the next class you find overpowerd ? droners ? melleetanks ? ravagertanks ? healinglightspy's or PE's ? dunno
cause they need to wait 1 millisec before there reticule locks o.O mwookay :rolleyes:
edit: i yust see my PE as a hybridmonk with decent resists/armour and a pain easer, i like em yeah :)
so you admit monks are a bandwagon? droners/melee are not easy to play well, and they aren't overpowered...
and if you dont mind the reticle lock, why not give APU's the same thing
PE isnt a hybrid, a PE is very killable, a hybrid isnt (ppu hyb) and id guess psiattack2+db isnt far off from a PE? (not tested!!).
Original monk
06-07-05, 22:10
so you admit monks are a bandwagon? droners/melee are not easy to play well, and they aren't overpowered...
and if you dont mind the reticle lock, why not give APU's the same thing
PE isnt a hybrid, a PE is very killable, a hybrid isnt (ppu hyb) and id guess psiattack2+db isnt far off from a PE? (not tested!!).
ONOZ im busted :) yust kidding i was yust explaining sumthing in youre own language eprodigy :)
but tbh i find em all as easy to play lol, the word skill is heavily overused in this game and certainly on these forums hehe
reticule lock i dont find a problem nope, not on my tank, pe and spy's but i wouldnt like it on an apu ... or any monk ... dunno why it yust doesnt feel right lol, after all these years monks suddenly have a reticule lol, the tought by itself makes me shiver :) guess this makes me skillless LOOL tough im sure lotsa people think the same so ...
indeed ppuhybrids are stronger then PE's tough they cant complain, been playing my pe lately and i must say there pretty tough :) also vs ppuhybrids with there psiattack 2 (PEs have tons of resist force lol, mine does anyhow)
i know cause i was fighting a lowtech paineaser/terminatorPE on my ppuhybrid and it took about 45 minutes lol, we yust couldnt hurt eachother enough :) it was a very enjoyable fight tough, spreaded over industrial 1 and 2 :P
ONOZ im busted :) yust kidding i was yust explaining sumthing in youre own language eprodigy :)
but tbh i find em all as easy to play lol, the word skill is heavily overused in this game and certainly on these forums hehe
reticule lock i dont find a problem nope, not on my tank, pe and spy's but i wouldnt like it on an apu ... or any monk ... dunno why it yust doesnt feel right lol, after all these years monks suddenly have a reticule lol, the tought by itself makes me shiver :) guess this makes me skillless LOOL tough im sure lotsa people think the same so ...
indeed ppuhybrids are stronger then PE's tough they cant complain, been playing my pe lately and i must say there pretty tough :) also vs ppuhybrids with there psiattack 2 (PEs have tons of resist force lol, mine does anyhow)
i know cause i was fighting a lowtech paineaser/terminatorPE on my ppuhybrid and it took about 45 minutes lol, we yust couldnt hurt eachother enough :) it was a very enjoyable fight tough, spreaded over industrial 1 and 2 :P
yeah but the pe can die, you cant.. whip out the poison beam or whatever it is
Jester learsn very quickly, I like your idea of putting ppu skills on two different trees, but maybe we should go with defensive and supportive trees, defensive tree being ofcourse shelters and deflectors and para (oh god, why just not remove, you see the benefit after I'm done with this post) while supportive would have all the skill boosts and most important of all, heals and rez, now if you are a hybrid gank monk, you'll def go with apu tree and the defensive tree since they are the most useful for that kind of job (now you see why para is not so needed anymore) and if you are a supportive monk like PPU monk right now is supposed to be, you go with support and apu skill trees, this allows you to support other classes and not gimp you out of leveling, since leveling a PPU monk is the most bitchy thing in the universe this would solve that problem too.
Now, nothing doesn't stop you from going with defensive and supportive trees at the same time, but this makes you all that more useless to yourself, you are pure supporting charater then and have no means of defending yourself other than pistol or something like that (para is removed since support monks don't need it anymore, they have apu skills), when we have three trees we ensure the effectiveness of monks and we won't need spells that do millions of points damage, since they can handle themselfs, they are no longer fragile casters, they are more well rounded class there with the other classes, no longer making huge impact on op wars (tho they still do make impact on it, since they ARE healers and buffers, but without the super heals and para they are no longer that dangerous).
I don't like splitting up shelter and deflector.. that'd screw over druggie spies and PEs more than PPUs I think, depending on how the TLs are done.
I don't like splitting up shelter and deflector.. that'd screw over druggie spies and PEs more than PPUs I think, depending on how the TLs are done.
With my plan even the spies and pes would benefit, altho it is a tough decision, will you go with support with heals and all, or will you go with defence with shelt and def, but the good thing is that when you have less stuff in these trees you could bet better shelts and defs or heals and buffs.
With my plan even the spies and pes would benefit, altho it is a tough decision, will you go with support with heals and all, or will you go with defence with shelt and def, but the good thing is that when you have less stuff in these trees you could bet better shelts and defs or heals and buffs.
Here's the thing... it's a buff to tanks, which doesn't need to happen.
Here's the thing... it's a buff to tanks, which doesn't need to happen.
I don't know what the fuck you just said, but it was beautiful man, touched me by the heart.
Jesterthegreat
07-07-05, 13:17
thing is i think the psi abilities of other classes are fairly balanced... so maybe have 3 lines, but low stuff is easy to cap.
this would mean that non-monks are neither boosted nor nerfed, but would also mean that an APU / SD monk could use a TL 10 heal.
Heavyporker
09-07-05, 09:25
Alright, to stay on topic :
FFS - PSI Monks aren't re-clothed Wizards, fuck you very much.
If we must re-name the psi modules to conform to the psionics mileu, so be it. Heal = Mental Regeneration, Shelter = Psisonic Deflection, Basic Resist Buff = Psionic Consitution, etc etc.
But, dear Crahn, let this frigging whine die. Psi Monks are Psionics, Period.
Anyways, as to the line of thought that recent posts have taken, I do rather like the idea of splitting up the Psionic Branches further for more balance. Defense, Support, De-Buff, Damage. Sounds very decent to me.
Jesterthegreat
09-07-05, 14:16
Alright, to stay on topic :
FFS - PSI Monks aren't re-clothed Wizards, fuck you very much.
If we must re-name the psi modules to conform to the psionics mileu, so be it. Heal = Mental Regeneration, Shelter = Psisonic Deflection, Basic Resist Buff = Psionic Consitution, etc etc.
But, dear Crahn, let this frigging whine die. Psi Monks are Psionics, Period.
Anyways, as to the line of thought that recent posts have taken, I do rather like the idea of splitting up the Psionic Branches further for more balance. Defense, Support, De-Buff, Damage. Sounds very decent to me.
you're sig is 100pix and 1 line of text.
this is a breach of the forum rules.
before you complain about others opinions, be sure you conform to the rules.
:edit: what an unclear post...
point being theres no problem with discussing opinion here, its allowed whether you agree or not. however breaking rules is not, so stop being so damned hypocrytical
Heavy, please change your sig to comply with the rules. Jester, will you please stop trolling people about their sigs? If you see a sig you don't like just report their post. Thanks.
N
Its not the names, heavy. Its the abilities themselves. I mean, Holy Lightning - classic thunderbolt. Fire Brarel? just like a burn are, etc etc. From psioninc monks I expect TK and TP, not magical energy and fire.
Jesterthegreat
09-07-05, 15:05
Jester, will you please stop trolling people about their sigs? If you see a sig you don't like just report their post. Thanks.
N
:edit: forget it
If it's psisonic (mind) why do they use their hands (usually assosiated with casting spells?)...
Jesterthegreat
09-07-05, 21:08
If it's psisonic (mind) why do they use their hands (usually assosiated with casting spells?)...
leave them to try and justify it.
spies justify stealth, ppu's justify para, carebears justify safezones, KK justify the state of the game :p
Mechanicus
09-07-05, 22:18
haha thats so easy to 'justify'
its because their using their psi gauntlets which were built to help channel their psi energy in a more controlled manner
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