View Full Version : Are APU Hybrids overpowered in PvP?
APU hybrids vary a lot, from nearly capping HL and only using TL 3 heal to using energy beam and almost, but probably not quite, reaching rez. Holy nrg halo / psi attack 2 and blessed shelter / blessed deflector / blessed heal are blessed hybrids (obviously), not APU hybrids. I'm defining APU hybrid as a hybrid monk that has a noticable bias towards APU and does not have blessed heal.
From the ones you've seen, do you think they're overpowered? This only concerns PvP, not PvE. Consider them both with and without a ppu. Compare them with combat classes such as APUs, Blessed hybrids, PPU hybrids, all tanks, mc/pc/rc PEs (with stealth) and rc/pc/droning spies (specced for combat, that means around 2 drugs, maybe more unless they drone).
I think when people shout " f***ing overpowered hybrid " they're saying it from past experiences when hybrids had holy lightning and holy paralysis, not currently. I'm also thinking player skill has to do with it as well, but.. I don't know, that's why I'm making a poll.
Please post why you vote yes or no, thanks!
Oh and try to be subjective, don't vote no because you have an apu hybrid or yes because you were just destroyed by one. :)
Theyre on the edge of being overpowered.
Its a PE with no aiming involved.
And a nearly freq 500ish dmg HL with a freq capped DB definately is a nasty thing.
Fix monk aiming, that would balance them automaticly. o_O
But i havent played mine in ages, hes stuck with red sl and half of his stuff got lost. :(
Monks dont fill it in this game. It was an eror to create monks...
For example : Neocron is just too laggy, when a monk shoot on you, you get 2 - 3 HL even if you arent sighted by the apu (on your screen)...
/set delete_monks 1
Sorry for flamming.
As a side comment... psi attack 2 should NEVER do the dmg it does on a rhino.
And yes APU biased hyb need some attention.
As someone already said... monks dont fit in this game. I agree but at the same time i doubt KK will ever remove em and honestly if they would we wouldnt survive the exodus. For pvp i think EVETHING is balanced but the apu hyb, ppu, perhaps the ppu hyb too AND the apu/ppu buttplug phenomena.
I believe apus on their own are a bit weak alltough they do the best dmg and have no aim at all which makes em amazing for pvm.
I believe apus on their own are a bit weak alltough they do the best dmg and have no aim at all which makes em amazing for pvm.In a op war it would force em to hide behind the dmg soaking tanks.... which aint to bad, just pvm would need a massive re adjust coz everything is ppu a tised in the mob world now, mc5 with ppu would suck hard as would most caves etc
Original monk
25-06-05, 14:40
no koshinn there not :)
depends on teh monk, and if they manage to get a db off, if they get a db off andd can dodge well then the enemy is as good as dead,
No but blessed one's are :mad:
Anti-Buff > db. Which is kinda dumb. A HL Hybrid can anti-buff and use nib stuff before they can get anything off because they have perfect timing, unless the hybrid sucks balls. :p
Anti-Buff > db. Which is kinda dumb. A HL Hybrid can anti-buff and use nib stuff before they can get anything off because they have perfect timing, unless the hybrid sucks balls. :pOnly need anti buff for ppu buffed fights or other hybs, blessed defense and a hl will beat most things pvp unless the hyb sucks even a pe dancin around gonna have a hard time takin down blessed defenses when hes gonna be soaking up dboosted attacks
exactly, antibuff is only needed in a bias 1v2 fight with a ppu or agains another hybreed, and the ocational PE
Mechanicus
25-06-05, 16:03
i never really found hybs a problem unless they get the jump on me with DB and 1-2 heavy hitter spells before i can even fight back
db+lib tears through any hyb pretty fast
i never really found hybs a problem unless they get the jump on me with DB and 1-2 heavy hitter spells before i can even fight back
db+lib tears through any hyb pretty fast
ya but ur totaly fuked if they carry anti damage in there belts *points at self* hehehe
Mechanicus
25-06-05, 17:48
nah not really, its still damn nice damage without if you can hit consistently and you'll get a few rounds in before the db is removed so you've already fucked their legs and your gonna hit them everytime easily
nah not really, its still damn nice damage without if you can hit consistently and you'll get a few rounds in before the db is removed so you've already fucked their legs and your gonna hit them everytime easily
ull be realy fuked since my hybreed has para barrel lmao its soo funny to watch a pe run into it
Mechanicus
25-06-05, 19:05
you'll be dead by the time that thing finishes casting, and para barrel is too weak to have any significant effect anyway, any parashock below holy para doesnt really do a lot of good other than making it harder for someone to run away, aiming/evading isnt that damaged (and they add a 'jump' effect to other people, you will seem to skip a few feet now and then, screwing your aiming up)
well, i've seen hybrids outhealing my slasher...
depends on the skill, but i think they are overpowered.
trust me a parashock barrel is rather efective, ppl underestimate it, its the difference between hitting my hybreed and missing
para barrel is good,
used to use it for zonelines when a big crew zoned together everyone would be near enough stuck then it was easy pickings for my 1 apu partner lol
Mechanicus
25-06-05, 20:20
trust me a parashock barrel is rather efective, ppl underestimate it, its the difference between hitting my hybreed and missing
monks should never miss anyway
para barrel is good,
used to use it for zonelines when a big crew zoned together everyone would be near enough stuck then it was easy pickings for my 1 apu partner lol
OMG, you play Pump!!! You must be the only person I've met that plays PIU! Did you see that Nike commercial with the white guy using Nike shoes beating the Chinese guy? Wow, last time I played was OBG I think.... Mr. Larpus ftw!
Anyway, back on topic... HL hybrid with blessed defenses? wtf?
Anyway, back on topic... HL hybrid with blessed defenses? wtf?
That is people just being stupid ;).
Let me think about that.. it might be possible with pa switching but it'd be seriously gimped.
You can do holy holy wiht pa switching.
Anise Jordan
26-06-05, 01:15
You can do holy holy wiht pa switching.
holy holy means what?
I don't think it's possible to do a holy lightning / holy shelter & level 3 buffs with PA switching. I just tried and with ds / psi core / apu pa3 and ppu pa3 there isn't enough points to get both HL and and holy shelter.
Mechanicus
26-06-05, 01:28
still a holy lightning/blessed defence or nrg beam/holy defence hyb would be nasty
still, their fucked when their buffs run or their anti buffed
still a holy lightning/blessed defence or nrg beam/holy defence hyb would be nasty
still, their fucked when their buffs run or their anti buffed
Yep, they'd have to switch PAs and while they are they'd be standing still. And while using holy lightning they could use tl3/tl10 heal.. not blessed.
one i dont like is holy heal, holy def, holy shelt, lvl3 buffs, db (sanc), psi attack 2 (overpowered a lot for tl52)... pa switch for buffs, holy heal works without pa
i like a 2 hybreed combo both buffing psi atack 2/3 on each other, ahhh so devistating in combat, 2 ppl act as a 2 man apu ppu team =] hilarious to watch i can tells u
one i dont like is holy heal, holy def, holy shelt, lvl3 buffs, db (sanc), psi attack 2 (overpowered a lot for tl52)... pa switch for buffs, holy heal works without pa
Those are PPU biased hybrids, not APU. I don't like those either.
in the hands of a good player, and with a perfectly personal playstyle setup any person can be immortallike with a given character, however a lot of people dont have this.
and therefore my vote stands at maybe/depends, since the person has to know exactly how his or her setup should be to correspond with his or her playstyle on that given character to be strong with it, and thereby become immortallike, and is therefore character dependant on the player in question, on the class in question, with the perfectly personalized playstyle setup for the player in question, not to mention the question of lag, synchzones and opponent, since the opponent could have an even better for the player personalized playstyle setup.
Which can ultimately be answered with 42.
(in the base 13 nummeric system)
in the hands of a good player, and with a perfectly personal playstyle setup any person can be immortallike with a given character, however a lot of people dont have this.
Oh yeah ? Hyb IS immortel anyway, PE IS immortal if using stealth, Spy is immortal if using stealth a lot, and tanks ?
Sure a good player will be always good with a given character, but some characters alows you to almost never die, and make sucky players being "immortal".
i give a shit about crappy ppl stealthing away ...
dont forget crappy ppl killing u because of the ppu :rolleyes: .
thats the worst thing tbh.
Oh yeah ? Hyb IS immortel anyway, PE IS immortal if using stealth, Spy is immortal if using stealth a lot, and tanks ?
Sure a good player will be always good with a given character, but some characters alows you to almost never die, and make sucky players being "immortal".
I have seen tanks pull down socalled immortal hybrids.
tank with cs vs hybrid that survived everyone else in a fight.
them 2 lasted 10 minutes against eachother.
Then the monk ran out of psi boosters and died.
cant remember who the 2 persons playing was.
It was seriously insane to watch.. most of them hit every shot, but took close to no damage at all.
It was clear that if the monk hadnt run out of boosters, they could have kept fighting for a long time more.
and there was no noob buffing involved for those thinking that.
Ok, shoot all your CS bullets on a hybrid, that you noob-healed first and tell me how much HP he lose... (im talking about a good skilled ppu-hybrid)
He lose almost NOTHING, even with a noob heal. Can you imagine with HIS holly heal ?
i'v beaten down apu-hybrid, ppu hybrid, but a good skilled contoled by a good player ppu-hybrid CANNOT lose a fight against an HC tank.
Your example is not good because you talk about an experience that you saw one day, but i tell you, good ppu-hyb cannot lose 1vs1 (it can be long, but they cant lose)
You're off topic, we're discussing APU hybrids, not PPU hybrids! PPU hybrids are ENTIRELY different than APU or blessed (50/50) hybrids.
Speedball - you're saying many classes can become immortal, such as stealthing PEs/Spies and PPUs. That's true, but just because they know how to stay alive doesn't mean they can do anything else. I've seen PPUs that you cannot noob buff, you cannot noob heal, you cannot kill. But they can't keep a single person alive if their life depended on it. Actually I'm not sure about that since they seem to stay alive. x.x Same with stealthing PEs/Spies. Yes you can't kill them, but they can't kill you either.
i like a 2 hybreed combo both buffing psi atack 2/3 on each other, ahhh so devistating in combat, 2 ppl act as a 2 man apu ppu team =] hilarious to watch i can tells u I said that..thas the only way u can do holy/holy. PSI 3 and u can get as much apu as a apu based hybrid but with holy/lvl 3 buffs when pa swapping.
i'v beaten down apu-hybrid, ppu hybrid, but a good skilled contoled by a good player ppu-hybrid CANNOT lose a fight against an HC tank.
Your example is not good because you talk about an experience that you saw one day, but i tell you, good ppu-hyb cannot lose 1vs1 (it can be long, but they cant lose)
I think your taking this to and passed the extreme.
I said that..thas the only way u can do holy/holy. PSI 3 and u can get as much apu as a apu based hybrid but with holy/lvl 3 buffs when pa swapping.
I think your taking this to and passed the extreme.
PPU hybs can lose. I've beaten them with a 1 drug PE using executioner. Well I didn't usually kill them, but I did "win" by chasing them off on my old PE.
Ok, shoot all your CS bullets on a hybrid, that you noob-healed first and tell me how much HP he lose... (im talking about a good skilled ppu-hybrid)
He lose almost NOTHING, even with a noob heal. Can you imagine with HIS holly heal ?
i'v beaten down apu-hybrid, ppu hybrid, but a good skilled contoled by a good player ppu-hybrid CANNOT lose a fight against an HC tank.
Your example is not good because you talk about an experience that you saw one day, but i tell you, good ppu-hyb cannot lose 1vs1 (it can be long, but they cant lose)
you didnt read a word i wrote did you?
He lost none other fight, not even the 2v1...
but this tank, took him down. they both lasted till the end of the monks psi boost supply.
he was immortal to everyone else than this tank.
because the tank had a more personalized playstyle setup than the monk.
none of them really took any damage at all.
and even a fully resistant ppu monk that has no more psi to shield himself with take about 12-34 dmg from a full 4 hit cs burst.
the shields can be broken through.. the only problem there really is with monks is the heal. you have to hit a lot of shots to keep the heal at bay.
now go read what i wrote again, and come back when you comprehend it.
cuz youre just saying that what i said couldnt happen.. but i assure you, it did.
No tank is outhealing a db + psi attack 2.
If the tank won, it means the blesed hybrid wasn't hitting enough.
No tank is outhealing a db + psi attack 2.
If the tank won, it means the blesed hybrid wasn't hitting enough.
True.. a tank can't even outheal psi attack 2 without db. I've killed tanks using psi attack 2 right out of the GR. It's not that I have uber defense (I don't, I drop faster than some spies), it's not that I do uber damage... I have holy lightning. It's that the tanks just can't hit me. Same thing happened in that hybrid vs tank fight. Although I wonder.. if a tank is DBd and the hybrid is healing then they both attack eachother (damage test, standing still, close, etc.) who would drop first?
PPU hybs can lose. I've beaten them with a 1 drug PE using executioner. Well I didn't usually kill them, but I did "win" by chasing them off on my old PE.
When did i say it was good?
If it was half good U'd see ppl doing it.
When did i say it was good?
If it was half good U'd see ppl doing it.
What is this "it" you're talking about?
cuz youre just saying that what i said couldnt happen.. but i assure you, it did.
No.
You have to read too ;)
If the 2 players are playing the same (they are both very good players) the hybrid cannot die, if good skilled. (Out healing shit)
No tank is outhealing a db + psi attack 2.
If the tank won, it means the blesed hybrid wasn't hitting enough.
Yeah
That was i ment, thanks :p
Does Damage Boost only affect energy/xray/fire damage or does it affect all damage including poison, pierce and force?
all damages. Even para damage :lol:
Dargeshaad
28-06-05, 14:38
I'd say yea APU hybs are overpowered in PvP, I have yet to die in a 1vs1 on mine (even against other apu hybs/blessed hybs) and I can 95% of the times walk victorious from a 2vs1 granted no PPU. Hell I've even killed groups of 5+ at crp (only because there wern't any APUs/PPUs)
Mr Friendly
28-06-05, 19:23
Theyre on the edge of being overpowered.
Its a PE with no aiming involved.
And a nearly freq 500ish dmg HL with a freq capped DB definately is a nasty thing.
Fix monk aiming, that would balance them automaticly. o_O
But i havent played mine in ages, hes stuck with red sl and half of his stuff got lost. :(
this is all true, but in the end, i always say no b/c its harder than any other class to play. & they cant stealth. :rolleyes:
Does Damage Boost only affect energy/xray/fire damage or does it affect all damage including poison, pierce and force?
no, nothing increases or decreases poison dmg besides resists. fyi: shelt & def doesnt help it either.
Db affects all types of dmg, except poison. same with shelt & def
heh a lot of new people here... only names i recognize is naimex (and a few others) =p
but if u think hybs are bad now u shoulda seen year 2000 hybs... man those were the days... now its suprizingly easy to kill one (if u know how)... i know ive seen good tanks and pes and even spies kill other hybrids (ele/div/eled/prom/zone to name a few) which is why i dunt think naimex's story isnt far off. In fact, a major draw back to any hyb is the psi booster... run out and ur screwed >_< but ofcourse hybs have a ton of other weaknesses... not really hard to kill one...
example: immobilize + shoot... havent played for a long time but afairk leg shots still pwn like no tomorrow. just have good aim and ur set. take out they're legs and really u can own anyone. healing wont matter if you cant take out ur enemy (unless the new playerbase is that bad... =p) but back in teh day people would kill ppus for fun (yes same powers as now but killed a lot by people who knew how to do it)...
again nothing is impossible. you just need to think more (and as some people like to say on these boards "get some skillz n00bz")
this is all true, but in the end, i always say no b/c its harder than any other class to play.:rolleyes:Bullshit.
For example wheres the difference between a PE and a hybrid? They both rely on buffs/s/d/db. Though the PE has to actually aim. o_O
Bullshit.
For example wheres the difference between a PE and a hybrid? They both rely on buffs/s/d/db. Though the PE has to actually aim. o_O
PEs have 5 second invincibility, hybrids don't. And don't talk about PEs having to aim, hybrids do too. After the first second or two of the fight their aiming becomes the same.
afaik a pe cant outheal a cs, speedgat, rav, lib, pob and alot of other rares, ppu hyb can.
and their aiming does not become the same ... monks dont need to aim, thats why so many wannabes playing monks, its so easy to rule with it.
afaik a pe cant outheal a cs, speedgat, rav, lib, pob and alot of other rares, ppu hyb can.
and their aiming does not become the same ... monks dont need to aim, thats why so many wannabes playing monks, its so easy to rule with it.
We aren't talking about PPU hybs, we're talking about APU hybs. Read topic!
And it does become the same, I play both a PE and an APU hyb frequently.
i did, some ppl were talking about ppu hybs as well, read thread.
but i dont care, lets talk about 18 dmg from a xbow to an apu hybrid with selfbuffs...
thats better ?
and just because it becomes the same to u it doesnt mean that it is a fact.
tell me, why do so many ppl log their apu if they lost a fight with any aim char like pe ?
i did, some ppl were talking about ppu hybs as well, read thread.
but i dont care, lets talk about 18 dmg from a xbow to an apu hybrid with selfbuffs...
thats better ?
and just because it becomes the same to u it doesnt mean that it is a fact.
tell me, why do so many ppl log their apu if they lost a fight with any aim char like pe ?
The discussion of pes vs hybrids was on APU hybrids. 18 damage from a crossbow to an apu hybrid with self buffs? I think spies would take just as much, if not less. Is that fair? Why would you use an energy weapon against monks in the first place?
Comparing damage with a lowtech rifle PE with good resists, I found that I take about the same amount of hits. I take less damage because I have less total health, but we die in about the same number of bursts from numerous weapons, give or take 1-2.
People log their APU if they lose a fight with a PE because they want to grab a PPU. APUs become much stronger with a PPU while a PE becomes only marginally stronger. APU is all about frontload damage. It's also a much easier class to play. With a PE you have to watch stamina, psi, health, buffs, heals, ammo AND your target. You have to know what all of that is like or you'll die fairly quickly. As an APU you worry about your target, your psi and psi boosters. That's half the work load. Do you kind of care about stamina and health? Yes, but you shouldn't run out of stamina much if at all and you don't have to worry about your health because you can't do anything about it. APUs let people focus more because it is an easier class to play, but I don't believe they play an APU because of the aiming.
If you're good at aiming, a PE with a Judge or a Monk with HL is basically the same.
The discussion of pes vs hybrids was on APU hybrids. 18 damage from a crossbow to an apu hybrid with self buffs? I think spies would take just as much, if not less. Is that fair? Why would you use an energy weapon against monks in the first place?
afaik xbow does nrg/xray/piercing.
but what else do u want to use ? lib ? it does crappy dmg, nothing compared to HL.
Comparing damage with a lowtech rifle PE with good resists, I found that I take about the same amount of hits. I take less damage because I have less total health, but we die in about the same number of bursts from numerous weapons, give or take 1-2.
maybe, but there is still a lil difference : aim. aim. aim.
and dont say again there is no difference between pe aiming and monk clicking.
People log their APU if they lose a fight with a PE because they want to grab a PPU.
some ppl.
APUs become much stronger with a PPU while a PE becomes only marginally stronger. APU is all about frontload damage. It's also a much easier class to play. With a PE you have to watch stamina, psi, health, buffs, heals, ammo AND your target. You have to know what all of that is like or you'll die fairly quickly. As an APU you worry about your target, your psi and psi boosters. That's half the work load. Do you kind of care about stamina and health? Yes, but you shouldn't run out of stamina much if at all and you don't have to worry about your health because you can't do anything about it. APUs let people focus more because it is an easier class to play, but I don't believe they play an APU because of the aiming.
apu is so fucking easy to play. and if i say "play" i mean its to easy to kill ppl with this char and that is, because u dont even need to aim, click, click, click, thats it.
If you're good at aiming, a PE with a Judge or a Monk with HL is basically the same.
u have absolutly no clue what u are talking about.
PE does not the same damage as an apu with HL. PE cannot change uber energy / poison / fire damage in one sec.
Pistols bullets dont reach someone if he goes throught walls, HL does it.
Pistols dont break legs in 2 - 3 shots. HL does it.
Shenyu Reza
29-06-05, 12:24
Not for me and never
afaik xbow does nrg/xray/piercing
Lots of Xray, a bit of force, a TINY bit of energy.
because u dont even need to aim, click, click, click, thats it.
Tired of hearing this BS. Monks need LESS aim, not none. They need the same amount of aiming as in any normal FPS - and you can't tell me that you cant see the difference in peoples aim there. Yes, its easier than the gun-wiedling classes. No, its not no aim.
Lots of Xray, a bit of force, a TINY bit of energy.
Tired of hearing this BS. Monks need LESS aim, not none. They need the same amount of aiming as in any normal FPS - and you can't tell me that you cant see the difference in peoples aim there. Yes, its easier than the gun-wiedling classes. No, its not no aim.
TBH, it is slightly less aim than your typical FPS, considering in a shooter you are aiming at the body and not a big invisible box surrounding it. I think people's point is you dont have to be very good at aiming to manage it (dont need to hold aim and have a large area in which you can click on).
apu is so fucking easy to play. and if i say "play" i mean its to easy to kill ppl with this char and that is, because u dont even need to aim, click, click, click, thats it.
Yes apu is easy to play, I've said as much. But you do need to aim. If you think you don't need to aim.. well.. you're just wrong. I'm not sure how you can think that if you've played a monk for any serious amount of time against good people.
u have absolutly no clue what u are talking about.
I think I know what I'm talking about, but I don't know, I don't hit 100% of my shots like you're implying APUs do.
TBH, it is slightly less aim than your typical FPS, considering in a shooter you are aiming at the body and not a big invisible box surrounding it. I think people's point is you dont have to be very good at aiming to manage it (dont need to hold aim and have a large area in which you can click on). I was just gonna say that lol
Yeah try playing Quake III that takes some skill ^^
I took down a capped tank with my young APU using a non capped 0 slot HL, I saw him at CRP I had no buffs on was wearing a posion belt from cave runs. I had no boots on due to some one looting my belt, I saw this tank and thought lets play ^^ I knew I was not a PE and would have to kill him fast as possible. In the end we both killed each other but I hit him every single shot it was so much easyer to run around the target spamming HL monks can stfu it don't take anywhere near as much skill as aiming a damn gun. when I'm capped I think I will kill anyone 1 vs 1 except another monk who has instant aim like me
/edit
Back to topic of APU hybs, I think the only thing I find overpowered about that class is when they cast the DB santum, because with that up you can't DB them your self. They have very good resist with that blessed deflector having around 400% damage on it but vs some one with say higher damage than my lowtech PE I think there ok. Its just the DB santum they cast that stops me from DBing them and getting extra damage on them
Original monk
29-06-05, 18:44
Monks need LESS aim, not none. They need the same amount of aiming as in any normal FPS - and you can't tell me that you cant see the difference in peoples aim there. Yes, its easier than the gun-wiedling classes. No, its not no aim.
hehe
eric cryton telling that monks need no aim so its easy ... cmaster saying that its "easier" then using rifles/pistols/whatever
... to be honest to be honest there both atleast as easy lol
playing violin, performing an 18 hour brainoperation, raising a child so he/she becomes a grown up polite kid .., splitting atoms, learning chinese for example ... thats hard ... aiming with a pe, a spy, a tank or a monk is pisseasy :D
i understand what you guys are saying tough :) ... nonmonk classes have to wait till there reticule closes/is targetted in ... and monks dont ... speedadvantage and it aint cool if you loose a lock ... monkspells fizzling again ffcourse but thats another case :)
i didnt want it any other way tbh ... monks with reticules ? lol common ... nonmonks witouth reticules ? sounds boring :) .. tough its also true some weapons have it easy :) rav and hl for example, raypistols/rifles are quite fast also (good old blacksun) :)
another (mindless) post made by yours truelly, numbed behind the computer, right after work right before some days vacation with a euh lets say cigarette still in the ashtray !
cheers !
dont mind me if i repeat things :D ... i wasnt quiete paying attention and yust interfered right after i read the one post cmaster made ... the usual annoying interference witouth thinking thus ! atleast im honest today, no decent smiley to express this, nidhogg or KK !! can there be smiley's added ? lots of em to express ourselves !! :D
hehe
eric cryton telling that monks need no aim so its easy ... cmaster saying that its "easier" then using rifles/pistols/whatever
... to be honest to be honest there both atleast as easy lol
playing violin, performing an 18 hour brainoperation, raising a child so he/she becomes a grown up polite kid .., splitting atoms, learning chinese for example ... thats hard ... aiming with a pe, a spy, a tank or a monk is pisseasy :D
i understand what you guys are saying tough :) ... nonmonk classes have to wait till there reticule closes/is targetted in ... and monks dont ... speedadvantage and it aint cool if you loose a lock ... monkspells fizzling again ffcourse but thats another case :)
i didnt want it any other way tbh ... monks with reticules ? lol common ... nonmonks witouth reticules ? sounds boring :) .. tough its also true some weapons have it easy :) rav and hl for example, raypistols/rifles are quite fast also (good old blacksun) :)
another (mindless) post made by yours truelly, numbed behind the computer, right after work right before some days vacation with a euh lets say cigarette still in the ashtray !
cheers ! No no just no
I fight alot and my crosshair can be fully locked and I still miss guns etc MISS from time to time but spells never miss once sucessfully cast. If your getting miss casts then get more PSI use ?
I can't see how you monks think its so hard to aim that thing that annihilate's anything you put your little red or what ever colour you have set over it o_O
Jesterthegreat
29-06-05, 18:56
No no just no
I fight alot and my crosshair can be fully locked and I still miss guns etc MISS from time to time but spells never miss once sucessfully cast. If your getting miss casts then get more PSI use ?
thats another thing... maybe if spells missed as much as a fully locked PE or lib does... or a fully locked lib / PE hit as much as a spell we would have less monkocron.
as it is monks currently can:
1. do the most damage
2. take the least damage
3. balance both and be the best solo class
4. they require much less aim
5. as long as they have any kind of skill they will not fizzle / miss more than about 3 times per fight
in fact... what does a non-monk do better than a monk? (nothing specific)
long range? debatable due to the shitty netcode
hacknet. wow.
tradeskilling to an extent (lower dex than spies)
thats all i can think of. as i said... nothing specific so i havent said "they cant use a CS very well" or anything like that... just got right down to it.
so. essentially all we need is armies of monks... with a few spies for hacknet / tradeskilling / sniping (weapon type doesnt matter... sniping as in long range combat)
Back to topic of APU hybs, I think the only thing I find overpowered about that class is when they cast the DB santum, because with that up you can't DB them your self. They have very good resist with that blessed deflector having around 400% damage on it but vs some one with say higher damage than my lowtech PE I think there ok. Its just the DB santum they cast that stops me from DBing them and getting extra damage on them
Yeah you can. For example, if I cast DB Sanc (as I often do), it damage boosts everyone in the area (for significantly less than a normal DB mind you) except me. So if you cast DB on me, I'll take more damage than everyone else. You cannot, however, db their teammates. That's mostly why I use it, to protect my side from enemy DBs and to DB them, but it's only really useful if we have less numbers and/or they have a PPU and we don't. I also use it when it's just me, since it DBs everyone but me. ^.^
Yeah you can. For example, if I cast DB Sanc (as I often do), it damage boosts everyone in the area (for significantly less than a normal DB mind you) except me. So if you cast DB on me, I'll take more damage than everyone else. You cannot, however, db their teammates. That's mostly why I use it, to protect my side from enemy DBs and to DB them, but it's only really useful if we have less numbers and/or they have a PPU and we don't. I also use it when it's just me, since it DBs everyone but me. ^.^
Well I did not know that so did not bother casting it ^^ I thought the psi manipulation thing you get on your self acted like the deflector sactum which cancels out deflector buffs. Which is another thing I used once to kill PPU's ^^ but stopped when I found it also canceled out my own buffs which resulted in my death :lol:
But yes why play a monk ?
Erm well with one you can nuke people and get PE like defence so why not play one, I don't really like monks due to being in that stat it would be boring for me. I could be apu hybrid and kill so many people and there PPU's that try to rezz there team mates but it would get a bit boring for me.
Original monk
29-06-05, 19:14
No no just no
I fight alot and my crosshair can be fully locked and I still miss guns etc MISS from time to time but spells never miss once sucessfully cast. If your getting miss casts then get more PSI use ?
8| not so fast lil :D i was still editing previous part lol
but youre right lil T, they always do hit and other weapons tend to miss alot, like FL/CS blubs & missed paineaserhits for example
and yeah ! the fizzling encounters much less (due to buggy/laggy stuff mostly ... certainly with the gayaglove most monks in general sure have enough psiuse :) ) then the misses of some nonspell weapons .. with my previous examples as extremes lol .. ffcourse im missing alot like libs etc but i gotta make a phonecall soon so i cant make it too long :)
anyways ... what should i say against these hard facts ? that there are classes that require more skill to play then others ? or that there are classes that are chosen by skillless people to compensate for there lack of it ? all i can say is that if you like playing a class, whatever one ... and you play it alot ... then you become good in it ... beeing it a PE, a monk, a tank or a spy :) to smoothly generalise it :D
apart from our conversation, some general questions that passed my hazy mind :)
what is the basic question ? are you (anyone actually .. the reader) more skilled by playing with a nonmonk char ? or are you less skilled playing with monks ? or more skilled by killing someone with a nonspell weapon ? preferably if its a monk who uses a click and point weapon ? where in between is a melleetank ? wich char is better then others ? is that the basic question ? is a apumonk who has low defenses but also click and point skilled when he/she makes a kill ? is an apu/pputeam skilled when they killed another apu/pputeam ? when i killed an apu with my full pierce paineaser am i skilled then ? when an apu kills 2 people .. a tank and a spy tough with a HL, powerfull click and point spell ! is he/she skilled then ?
never mind me, im clearly not in a state of debate, enjoy im off to make my phonecall :)
what is the basic question ? are you (anyone actually .. the reader) more skilled by playing with a nonmonk char ? or are you less skilled playing with monks ? or more skilled by killing someone with a nonspell weapon ? preferably if its a monk who uses a click and point weapon ? where in between is a melleetank ? wich char is better then others ? is that the basic question ? is a apumonk who has low defenses but also click and point skilled when he/she makes a kill ? is an apu/pputeam skilled when they killed another apu/pputeam ? when i killed an apu with my full pierce paineaser am i skilled then ? when an apu kills 2 people .. a tank and a spy tough with a HL, powerfull click and point spell ! is he/she skilled then ?
I dont know. No. No. No. Maybe. Even more cheap than APUs. Melee tanks. No. Depends on the situation. Relatively, yes. Depends. Yes.
:p
Well my experence with APU's is you just got to run at your target and nuke them which I found not that hard to do, if they give you any problems you just dart about like a lunitic casting the whole time. That something other classes can't do because of having to get a good lock befor you hit, if you think APU is hard to aim then I hate to see you play as a tank spy or PE. As a PE using a libby I can't just dart about shooting at people I have to crouch from time to time to get the damn thing to lock so my shots hit people. The whole time doing that I'm more or less stood still and become an easy target for monks. As I said sometimes I have full lock and aim and when the fight is going fast I can't hit jack shit and have to stop to get my aim back but with a monk as long as you have there name tag your hitting them !
Well my experence with APU's is you just got to run at your target and nuke them which I found not that hard to do, if they give you any problems you just dart about like a lunitic casting the whole time.
Yep. APUs have the advantage of excellent frontload damage. PEs have it too with db... at least if they don't drug it off.
That something other classes can't do because of having to get a good lock befor you hit, if you think APU is hard to aim then I hate to see you play as a tank spy or PE. As a PE using a libby I can't just dart about shooting at people I have to crouch from time to time to get the damn thing to lock so my shots hit people. The whole time doing that I'm more or less stood still and become an easy target for monks. As I said sometimes I have full lock and aim and when the fight is going fast I can't hit jack shit and have to stop to get my aim back but with a monk as long as you have there name tag your hitting them !
I can do that with a rifle PE... I play just the same as my hybrid. I don't have trouble with lock at all on my PE except in crowded areas or long range.
Original monk
29-06-05, 19:50
koshinn lol dont answer the questions ! :D
(yust read the other post also and must say i do the same .. play my lowtech paineaser PE yust the same as a hybrid, feels abit like my old TARppu :D but this one does "real" damage lol)
lil T, when i see you doing these things on youre PE at MB (where i drop by often on mine :) ), i must say you pull it of yust nicely :) even versus them evil apu's :)
Yes apu is easy to play, I've said as much. But you do need to aim. If you think you don't need to aim.. well.. you're just wrong. I'm not sure how you can think that if you've played a monk for any serious amount of time against good people.
omg, this lil bit of aiming u need to play an apu doesnt count as a really aiming :rolleyes: ...
and no, i'm not wrong ;)
I think I know what I'm talking about, but I don't know, I don't hit 100% of my shots like you're implying APUs do.
did i ever said that ? no. dont use any eristical tactics if u dont know how to do it.
Yep. APUs have the advantage of excellent frontload damage. PEs have it too with db... at least if they don't drug it off.
I can do that with a rifle PE... I play just the same as my hybrid. I don't have trouble with lock at all on my PE except in crowded areas or long range.
Yes thats the thing I liked about being rifle and the damage but so slow.....
omg, this lil bit of aiming u need to play an apu doesnt count as a really aiming :rolleyes: ...
and no, i'm not wrong ;)
did i ever said that ? no. dont use any eristical tactics if u dont know how to do it.
So basically you're saying you don't have to aim with an APU in any significant ammount. Therefore shouldn't you be hitting 90% + of your shots, if aiming is almost non-existant? :rolleyes:
if i got good frames i do.
well, depends on my enemy, if he's way better than me, sure i lose.
koshinn lol dont answer the questions ! :D
(yust read the other post also and must say i do the same .. play my lowtech paineaser PE yust the same as a hybrid, feels abit like my old TARppu :D but this one does "real" damage lol)
lil T, when i see you doing these things on youre PE at MB (where i drop by often on mine :) ), i must say you pull it of yust nicely :) even versus them evil apu's :)
I do ok at MB considering I can't aim in that crappy small space yet apu's or melee don't have that problem....
Dribble Joy
29-06-05, 20:24
Havn't read any of the thread, can't be arsed.
Regarding the Thread title question:
Yes and no.
They are probably too strong as a solo char, 'overpowered', no.
The real problem is blessed H/S hybrids.
Mr Friendly
29-06-05, 20:36
Bullshit.
For example wheres the difference between a PE and a hybrid? They both rely on buffs/s/d/db. Though the PE has to actually aim. o_O
PEs dont have to rely on DB, a hyb does. PEs reach their full potential if they DO use the db though. 1/2 the PEs i see around dont even use DB rarely
afaik a pe cant outheal a cs, speedgat, rav, lib, pob and alot of other rares, ppu hyb can.
and their aiming does not become the same ... monks dont need to aim, thats why so many wannabes playing monks, its so easy to rule with it.
honestly i wont bother, hes just another monk flamer.
Jesterthegreat
29-06-05, 20:48
honestly i wont bother, hes just another monk flamer.
is "monk flamer" worse than a "monk fanboi"?
honestly i wont bother, hes just another monk flamer.
not monk flamer.
ppu flamer. or hater.
and tbh, i give a shit about what u thinking about me :p
oh btw, thought u wanted to ignore me ..
thats what u wrote me in a pm, besides to some other stupid shit :lol:
Original monk
29-06-05, 20:54
is "monk flamer" worse than a "monk fanboi"?
good question wich i cant answer, i know every extreme is bad tough :) if you dont eat food you will die eventually and if you eat to much you will also die eventually :)
edit: says a monkfreak lol
Jesterthegreat
29-06-05, 21:06
good question wich i cant answer, i know every extreme is bad tough :) if you dont eat food you will die eventually and if you eat to much you will also die eventually :)
if you eat the perfect amount you will die eventually too though.
hahahahaha look at the poll :lol:
Jesterthegreat
29-06-05, 21:14
i'd say they arent overpowered btw. almost dropped a DB sanc / HL hyb at MB yesterday... but he clipped and zoned too much :p
judge PE > APU hyb
oh and my other PE did the same...
Tsunami rifle PE > APU hyb
Original monk
29-06-05, 21:19
if you eat the perfect amount you will die eventually too though.
lol they all end up the same place yeah :p in my own case, very generaly speaking again, i noticed that being, wanting even desiring and also having to much or to less of the good will slide me downhill pretty fast tough :p
huray for balance ! :D (i feel like dribble joy speaking about balance and all)
enjoy ! whatever youre doing tonight :)
Jesterthegreat
29-06-05, 21:21
enjoy ! whatever youre doing tonight :)
the top quote in my sig.
i'd say they arent overpowered btw. almost dropped a DB sanc / HL hyb at MB yesterday... but he clipped and zoned too much :p
judge PE > APU hyb
oh and my other PE did the same...
Tsunami rifle PE > APU hyb
dude, i've beaten apu hybs on my apu with psi attack when i was impaired ...
would have been an interesting fight if u would have fought zodds apu hyb :)
i'd say they arent overpowered btw. almost dropped a DB sanc / HL hyb at MB yesterday... but he clipped and zoned too much :p
judge PE > APU hyb
oh and my other PE did the same...
Tsunami rifle PE > APU hyb
I think that was me you were talking about... if it was me that you were talking about, it wasn't just you that was attacking me. It was also Little Terror using a piercing earp (ow ow ow ow). You also got the drop on me with both of your characters because I didn't expect a CM to attack me... So I got DB'd and dropped to 2/3 before I knew what was going on. Then your alt was NEXT, an allied faction. I definately didn't expect that. So yes, you almost dropped me 2v1 using piercing weapons and when I didn't expect anything. :p
But I agree, apu hybs aren't overpowered!!
I lie, I think they are overpowered solo, but overall they aren't really.
Jesterthegreat
29-06-05, 21:39
I think that was me you were talking about... if it was me that you were talking about, it wasn't just you that was attacking me. It was also Little Terror using a piercing earp (ow ow ow ow). You also got the drop on me with both of your characters because I didn't expect a CM to attack me... So I got DB'd and dropped to 2/3 before I knew what was going on. Then your alt was NEXT, an allied faction. I definately didn't expect that. So yes, you almost dropped me 2v1 using piercing weapons and when I didn't expect anything. :p
But I agree, apu hybs aren't overpowered!!
I lie, I think they are overpowered solo, but overall they aren't really.
yeah lil t joined in.
i've never been clanned with him and fought him loads... but sometimes we just see a target and go for it side by side... its odd :p
but he wasnt there the whole time and i know that i dropped you to at least half with my judge solo :p not being ready is no excuse when campping a zoneline :p
Dribble Joy
29-06-05, 21:47
If they had kept the apu/ppu skill effects at the previous 5%, I think they would be quite balanced, however I think that for the defence that they do get (shelter is a massive advantage), the loss of attack power is not enough.
It's not a huge amount too much, but still probably too much.
but he wasnt there the whole time and i know that i dropped you to at least half with my judge solo :p not being ready is no excuse when campping a zoneline :p
Yeah it is when it has to do with factions. :p I just ran by you and ignored you. When I fight allied/neutrals I don't really want to win, I try to take them down low and force them to zone.. I like my SL.
Yeah it is when it has to do with factions. :p I just ran by you and ignored you. When I fight allied/neutrals I don't really want to win, I try to take them down low and force them to zone.. I like my SL.
SL don't matter its faction symps that matter and killing one or 2 merc's don't really effect them that much, apart from CM's hating you and TG loving you for it ^^
SL don't matter its faction symps that matter and killing one or 2 merc's don't really effect them that much, apart from CM's hating you and TG loving you for it ^^
Hm... never thought of it that way. But gaining SL is just a pain, I'd rather not do boring missions if I don't have to.
it takes like 5 min to get out of -32 which i do quite often.. just run a few tl150 bp missions...
PS. stop defending monks. they are obviously a no skill class you can't deny it.
PS. stop defending monks. they are obviously a no skill class you can't deny it.
<3 <3 <3 eprodigy <3 <3 <3
Mr Friendly
30-06-05, 06:19
not monk flamer.
ppu flamer. or hater.
and tbh, i give a shit about what u thinking about me :p
oh btw, thought u wanted to ignore me ..
thats what u wrote me in a pm, besides to some other stupid shit :lol:
u are on ignore, doesnt matter to see what bla bla u said in a thread im posting on. & no i dont expect u to care what i think of u, thats why i didnt bother posting in reply to your discussion :rolleyes:
PS. stop defending monks. they are obviously a no skill class you can't deny it.
Monks are not that good man... I can't aim for shit on a monk but I can hit nearly every shit with a CS/speed gat and guns like that...
hasnt your mother told you not to shoot your shit...
it takes like 5 min to get out of -32 which i do quite often.. just run a few tl150 bp missions...
PS. stop defending monks. they are obviously a no skill class you can't deny it.
I can deny it as much as I want.
Are they overpowered? Yes. Do they take no skill to play? No.
Monks are not that good man... I can't aim for shit on a monk but I can hit nearly every shit with a CS/speed gat and guns like that...
See I'm not the only one!!!11!11!!!one. Yes that's a palindrome.
it takes like 5 min to get out of -32 which i do quite often.. just run a few tl150 bp missions...
PS. stop defending monks. they are obviously a no skill class you can't deny it.
I think tl150 res missions are an exploit and should be fixed. It's lame that anyone can do them for extremely easy money and faction symp and SL. They could fix by making the item pool really really big, like 40 different items possible. And cancelling missions makes you lose faction symp. That'd be better I think.
Yes I can deny that monks are a "no skill class". I seriously doubt you've played one. To me, playing an APU hybrid is about maximizing potential. After playing a PE for a long time, I made an APU hybrid so I could self buff faster (yes, noticably faster) and be useful in op fights. :p
I think tl150 res missions are an exploit and should be fixed. It's lame that anyone can do them for extremely easy money and faction symp and SL. They could fix by making the item pool really really big, like 40 different items possible. And cancelling missions makes you lose faction symp. That'd be better I think.
Now is when you should shut up :p... I love my TL 150 res missions on my PE and would cry if they went away.
Now is when you should shut up :p... I love my TL 150 res missions on my PE and would cry if they went away.
It's like the old APC thingy in NC1 that allowed people to make millions... It'd be interesting to do but I don't think it should be allowed to continue.
It's like the old APC thingy in NC1 that allowed people to make millions... It'd be interesting to do but I don't think it should be allowed to continue.
I don't care about cash though... All I want is the SL/symp raising ^^.
I don't care about cash though... All I want is the SL/symp raising ^^.
What's the point of having a penalty if the penalty goes away in 5 min?
What's the point of having a penalty if the penalty goes away in 5 min?
It is not "that" fast to get from -32 to + symp. And it still takes time to make the missions so oh well.
in a perfect "world" it wouldnt be possible but NC to me is nothing more then login run around shoot everyone. the way the game is designed leaves me no other real choice (that would provide any entertainment) then that so its not my fault. and yeah i can run enough for -32 in about 5 min with good luck on the citycom :P
in a perfect "world" it wouldnt be possible but NC to me is nothing more then login run around shoot everyone. the way the game is designed leaves me no other real choice (that would provide any entertainment) then that so its not my fault. and yeah i can run enough for -32 in about 5 min with good luck on the citycom :P
in a perfect "world" monks wouldn't exist, but NC is different.
Im really wondering how do results of this poll came up like this. The simple answer to this question is that at this moment hybrids are really VERY overpowered. I dont understand why theres a 50% people that says otherwise, however I will try to backup my opinion without giving details.
APU hybrid's defences:
Better than, or equal to a PE when using bl. def.
Needs no drugs
Less runspeed, but loss of aiming reticle compensates
better or equal, but a lot faster DB than a PE
caps TL10 heal
APU hybrid's offences:
Ability to use a nearcapped energy beam makes a hybrid incredibly powerfull, especiallly if they use a db. Their damage doesnt affect their speed like that of a spy or a pe. I would easily say that they attack as hard as a tank or a spy does...
So what you get is a (really very fun character to play) character that can play 2 roles:
as a apu hybrid it can be a self sustained character with no need for drugs ever!!
in op wars as an apu it can shine, as it can use a HL or all the weaponry each apu can use, with the help of a ppu and psi3, and yes still no drugs.
As a spy, I would sacrifice my stealth tool and the fun that comes with it for no flash drugs that make you important in op wars. I think its about time kk needs to reconsider how drugs work, because its a given fact that spies and pes do use them a lot. What you get here are 2 classes that dont need drugs: tanks & monks, and 2 classes that needs them: pes and spies. (before flaming starts, low tech pe, cannot be compared to a spy or hitech pe due to less offensive power)
With all this, I'm saying: DO NOT NERF the hybrid it makes for a very fun and entertaining character, change how drugs work and remove the fun out of players characters. Its a given fact that spies and PEs do drug, especially spies, so, lets make the game fun for them as well
Im really wondering how do results of this poll came up like this. The simple answer to this question is that at this moment hybrids are really VERY overpowered. I dont understand why theres a 50% people that says otherwise, however I will try to backup my opinion without giving details.
APU hybrid's defences:
Better than, or equal to a PE when using bl. def.
Needs no drugs
Less runspeed, but loss of aiming reticle compensates
better or equal, but a lot faster DB than a PE
caps TL10 heal
APU hybrid's offences:
Ability to use a nearcapped energy beam makes a hybrid incredibly powerfull, especiallly if they use a db. Their damage doesnt affect their speed like that of a spy or a pe. I would easily say that they attack as hard as a tank or a spy does...
So what you get is a (really very fun character to play) character that can play 2 roles:
as a apu hybrid it can be a self sustained character with no need for drugs ever!!
in op wars as an apu it can shine, as it can use a HL or all the weaponry each apu can use, with the help of a ppu and psi3, and yes still no drugs.
As a spy, I would sacrifice my stealth tool and the fun that comes with it for no flash drugs that make you important in op wars. I think its about time kk needs to reconsider how drugs work, because its a given fact that spies and pes do use them a lot. What you get here are 2 classes that dont need drugs: tanks & monks, and 2 classes that needs them: pes and spies. (before flaming starts, low tech pe, cannot be compared to a spy or hitech pe due to less offensive power)
With all this, I'm saying: DO NOT NERF the hybrid it makes for a very fun and entertaining character, change how drugs work and remove the fun out of players characters. Its a given fact that spies and PEs do drug, especially spies, so, lets make the game fun for them as well
Well hm.. APU hybrids really can't drug, even if the wanted to. There isn't any drugs that make them better unlike PEs and Spies. I've seen Spies, using drugs, with more defense than a tank and normal spy offence (Healing Light). Spies have hte potential to be excellent tradeskillers, gods of hacknet, excellent hit and run fighters and even stand up fighters using drugs. PEs do similar, but with less drugs and not as good tradeskilling or hacking. Tanks... fight without drugs but they can't really do anything else. Same with APU hybrids I think.
Now looking at your points, I don't think APU hybrids are very overpowered. They're about equal to a PE in defense. They need no drugs because drugs don't really help them. Less runspeed but loss of reticle? Those two things aren't comparable at all. Loss of runspeed, yes, hybrids run slower. Loss of reticle is an advantage, but comparing two highly skilled people it's almost negligible. Pistol PEs, full combat (as APU hybrids pretty much HAVE to be full combat) can nearly cap DB too. Same with TL10 Heal. Offense... A half capped holy lightning does more damage than a fully capped energy beam. Amd that is about the damage of a tank. Now, tanks have about the defense of a PE but without using shelter. Basically an APU hybrid has the defense and offense of a tank, but plays differently.
I believe any class fully specced for combat should be able to do well in PvP, but in the system where some classes cannot do anything but combat, they should have an advantage. In NC's case, it has to do with drugs. When a PE or Spy goes full combat, they have to drug to be equal to an APU hybrid or a tank (I'm not discussing APUs or PPUs or other hybrids as they need fixing) because if they wanted, they could pick up a trade skill easilly. They can probably tradeskill AND pvp, and many do. My APU hybrid needs all int points into psu and nearly all dex into agil, not enough extra dex to do anything but light vhc use (next quad).
Ok, I'm not sure if that was clear as it's getting late here. If you don't understand the point of Spies and PEs drugging to be as good in combat as tanks and apu hybrids, I'll try to reexplain it in other words.
Well hm.. APU hybrids really can't drug, even if the wanted to. There isn't any drugs that make them better unlike PEs and Spies.Using beast with a moveon lets you wear half the antigamma bones. Huge xray boost.
Using beast with a moveon lets you wear half the antigamma bones. Huge xray boost.
An apu hybrid with a moveon in is gimped.
There is no term like less overpowered or more overpowered. Theres only "overpowered" period. The apu hybrid, has long past PE defences. The PE pales in comparison to an apu hybrid. For those that dont believe this, we can arrange for a demo. The solely better unit that has better defences is indeed the ppu. And im talking about hybrids that rely on their own powers.
So, like you say we have a unit that has the best defenses, and tank offence = overpowered.
Now add to this the fact that PEs& Spies needs drugs to come close, which is a gimp by definition and you see my point about drugs. If we want the spy to stay in TH and poke the allmighty warriors, then we can leave things as they are. PEs are long shafted anyway.
And btw, If you want to make a combat spy you can forget about tradeskilling at all, except pokes ot hack
An apu hybrid with a moveon in is gimped.
Your opinion.
O_o
YaY getting ganked on spy by a lvl 55 hybrid apu at a gr because he can sd -.- ( dont drug yet ) and im 80/61 -.- yay he dms and says nooob -.-
Well hm.. APU hybrids really can't drug, even if the wanted to.
no ? what about ... redflash ? paratemol forte ? beast ?
Mr Friendly
01-07-05, 16:13
An apu hybrid with a moveon in is gimped.
u should know better sekh, i taught u both the moveon & ppr setup ;)
There is no term like less overpowered or more overpowered. Theres only "overpowered" period.
Yes there is, there's overpowered relative to other things. Is an APU hybrid overpowered? The poll is leaning towards no. I think we can all assume PPU hybrids are overpowered. Now if you assume APU hybrids are overpowered, they are in less of a need of a nerf than a PPU hybrid, and are therefore less overpowered. (I used the word 'overpowered" 5 times in that paragraph not including this sentence. 6 I guess.)
The apu hybrid, has long past PE defences. The PE pales in comparison to an apu hybrid. For those that dont believe this, we can arrange for a demo.
I think (I'm not sure and can't check) that I said the term APU hybrid covers a big range. Slightly more APU doesn't cut it as an APU hybrid, that'd be more blessed. And without blessed buffs (that is, blessed shelter, holy deflector and blessed heal) APU hybrids get around the same defense as a lowtech PE, more in energy, less in pierce/force. I'd like to see your APU hybrid that has so much more defense than a PE, maybe I could learn something from it.
The solely better unit that has better defences is indeed the ppu. And im talking about hybrids that rely on their own powers.
Blessed hybrids don't have better defense than an APU hybrid? I'm confused now. PPU hyrbids?
So, like you say we have a unit that has the best defenses, and tank offence = overpowered.
Well no, I didn't say that. I said APU hybrids have PE like defense and tank like offense, except that tanks have PE like defense, so they're basically a tank with a few gimmicks (no good parashock, replace with antishield).
And btw, If you want to make a combat spy you can forget about tradeskilling at all, except pokes ot hack
That's how it should be. (Forgive the break in continuity with my quoting of his post, but there is a reason...)
Now add to this the fact that PEs& Spies needs drugs to come close, which is a gimp by definition and you see my point about drugs. If we want the spy to stay in TH and poke the allmighty warriors, then we can leave things as they are. PEs are long shafted anyway.
I see your point, but you didn't see mine. Here, let me refer to my earlier post, then re-explain it in more detail using examples. I knew I didn't word it right or something. x.x
I believe any class fully specced for combat should be able to do well in PvP, but in the system where some classes cannot do anything but combat, they should have an advantage. In NC's case, it has to do with drugs. When a PE or Spy goes full combat, they have to drug to be equal to an APU hybrid or a tank (I'm not discussing APUs or PPUs or other hybrids as they need fixing) because if they wanted, they could pick up a trade skill easilly. They can probably tradeskill AND pvp, and many do. My APU hybrid needs all int points into psu and nearly all dex into agil, not enough extra dex to do anything but light vhc use (next quad).
Ok, I'm not sure if that was clear as it's getting late here. If you don't understand the point of Spies and PEs drugging to be as good in combat as tanks and apu hybrids, I'll try to reexplain it in other words.
Take hypothetical class A, hypothetical class B and hypothetical class C.
Class A can, if he so wishes, spec enough int points to become the best tradeskiller, doing two or more tradeskills at thier maximum level, not just at some mediocre level. Class B can likewise use up all the int points available to tradeskill, but it will only be a single tradeskill at maximum level, not two or three like class A can do. Class C cannot gain a tradeskill at the maximum level, even if it too uses all int points into a single tradeskill.
So we have A, B and C in order of best tradeskiller to worst. You may think A is overpowered as a class from just this information... but...
In terms of combat, Class C is by far the best, with level 5 offense and level 5 defense solo, and level 6 offense and level 8 defense in a team. Class B on the other hand has level 4 offense but level 5 defense solo and level 5 offense and level 6 defense in a team. Sounds bad doesn't it? Class A has level 5 offense but level 2 defense solo, level 6 offense and level 4 defense in a team. These numbers are a bit arbitrary but hang with me. It may seem that class C is overpowered in the combat respect and you wouldn't be far from wrong.
So now we have an interesting class mixup, A, B and C in order of best to worst tradeskiller and C, B, A in order of best to worst combat class. It's kind of fair. Now NC2 (and NC1) are PvP games, no one wants to play a class that can ONLY tradeskill well, so you'll inevitablty have players from class A and class B wanting to spec full combat. Unfortunately their int bonus doesn't help much in the combat regard compared to class C's other stats. In order to bridge the gap they have to drug to fight at the level of class C... class A drugging the most and B a bit less.
Here's the key point: If they all specced combat, we have a rougly equal class balance in all respects, except that A and B have to use drugs because they have the option of doing a tradeskill while C does not. How would it be fair if class A and class B could do combat as well as C or instead do tradeskills, whatever they wanted, while class C was forced into a combat role? Yes they can all be equal in the end, but there are some disadvantages in combat for choosing a class that has the option of tradeskilling.
Now do you understand why PEs and Spies need to drug? I'm sure you've all gotten it by now, but A B and C aren't entirely hypothetical. :p I was missing class M, because they don't really fit in with all of this.
Edit: adding a reply here so I don't double post.
no ? what about ... redflash ? paratemol forte ? beast ?
Redflash helps runspeed, but that should be negligible as diminishing returns definately plays a role at the speed monks (without PA) run at. Paratemol Forte is just hp, hardly worth the chance of a drugflash and the.. 3k nc? Beast adds strength. Strength gives one gamma bone, 2 with a moveon. It might almost be worth it.. almost.. not really no. Spies and PEs drug to get full armor sets, new weapons, new spells and new implants not previously available. An APU hybrid gains nothing like that from drugs. Now if Kamis were in the game still, a certain Black Dragon drug would be very nice... :o
Ouch!! next time try to limit your answers....
ok one more time:
1. Apu hybrids ARE overpowered. The polls result is mistaken.
2. I never said OR assumed that ppu hybrids ARE overpowered, and since we are in this, tell me what is your defintition of "overpowered class", because i have shown you mine
3. I WAS talking about Apu hybrids that cap a beam or near cap a HL, and yes you can learn a lot from NC in general, not just hybrids.
for all the rest i cant follow your train of thought... sorry
i think apu hybs are overpowered there just not unkillable like ppu hybs and theres less of them so no one pays as much attention
Jesterthegreat
01-07-05, 19:58
Ouch!! next time try to limit your answers....
ok one more time:
1. Apu hybrids ARE overpowered. The polls result is mistaken.
2. I never said OR assumed that ppu hybrids ARE overpowered, and since we are in this, tell me what is your defintition of "overpowered class", because i have shown you mine
3. I WAS talking about Apu hybrids that cap a beam or near cap a HL, and yes you can learn a lot from NC in general, not just hybrids.
for all the rest i cant follow your train of thought... sorry
i gotta disagree. APU hyb's arent all that. they take less damage than an APU... but lose some damage and mana pool.
i prefer fighting an APU hyb to any other monk
i gotta disagree. APU hyb's arent all that. they take less damage than an APU... but lose some damage and mana pool.
i prefer fighting an APU hyb to any other monk jest, you prefer fighting an apu hybrid (with shelter/bl deflector and HL and capped TL10 heal) than an apu?? whats easier to drop? an apu with HolyLight or a PE with HolyLighting?
An apu hybrid with PE lvl resists (including force/pierce) and wearing a poison belt is overpowered. Add to that TL10 heal/dmg boost/capped energy beam....get serious...get reticule :p
Jesterthegreat
01-07-05, 20:11
jest, you prefer fighting an apu hybrid (with shelter/bl deflector and HL and capped TL10 heal) than an apu?? whats easier to drop? an apu with HolyLight or a PE with HolyLighting?
they do less damage.
if i fight an APU hyb i find it easier than an APU. maybe its cos they keep stopping, panicing, and trying to heal.
tl 10 heal is good... but doesnt outheal a judge or a wyatt. an APU has nothing to fall back on... an APU goes for death or glory. an APU hyb tries to survive :p
GIVE SPIES/PES DRUGS WITHOUT DRUGFLASH EFFECTS :D
or reqless shelter reqless shelter reqless shelter
i think apu hybs are overpowered there just not unkillable like ppu hybs and theres less of them so no one pays as much attention
I agree, lol. There aren't too many APU hybrids around so not many people have seen them in action, for better or for worse. Btw I agree that they're overpowered, but not as much as ppu hybs.
Ouch!! next time try to limit your answers....
ok one more time:
1. Apu hybrids ARE overpowered. The polls result is mistaken.
2. I never said OR assumed that ppu hybrids ARE overpowered, and since we are in this, tell me what is your defintition of "overpowered class", because i have shown you mine
3. I WAS talking about Apu hybrids that cap a beam or near cap a HL, and yes you can learn a lot from NC in general, not just hybrids.
for all the rest i cant follow your train of thought... sorry
1. Need proof for your assertment. The poll result shows the opinions of 70 or so people, and with some deviation you can safely say it's about 50/50 on what people think. I did include an option for unsure/depends/maybe so you shouldn't see random uninformed guesses.
2. I assume we all speak (or read/comprehend) the english language as this is the english community talk. Overpowered is defined as "To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm." It is not just to be better than, but to be so much better that other people (classes in this case) cannot do anything about it. A PPU hybrid is overpowered because you really can't stop it without A LOT of time and hard work, while it can kill you decently fast.
3. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here, your distinguishing between APU and PPU hybrids, so I can't quite clarify, sorry.
Now about following my train of thought... I'll make it super simple now, one sentence instead of a page: A class that can only fight should be superior in combat to a class that fights and tradeskills unless that class makes sacrifices, in this case drugs.
2. I assume we all speak (or read/comprehend) the english language as this is the english community talk. Overpowered is defined as "To affect so strongly as to make helpless or ineffective; overwhelm." It is not just to be better than, but to be so much better that other people (classes in this case) cannot do anything about it. A PPU hybrid is overpowered because you really can't stop it without A LOT of time and hard work, while it can kill you decently fast. so, by your definition and because you cant stop them they are overpowered??? This is what I call with my limited english overpower:
Its an imballance of offence/defenses. Theres a ballance in this game. If you can get ppu defences and apu offence at same character this is overpower.
3. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to here, your distinguishing between APU and PPU hybrids, so I can't quite clarify, sorry. can a ppu hyb cap a beam? or HL?
Now about following my train of thought... I'll make it super simple now, one sentence instead of a page: A class that can only fight should be superior in combat to a class that fights and tradeskills unless that class makes sacrifices, in this case drugs. So, by defintition a spy or a pe can never be a pure warrior.
Well I'm a paying customer and I want my spy to be able to fight as equal to a tank/monk.
so, by your definition and because you cant stop them they are overpowered??? This is what I call with my limited english overpower:
Its an imballance of offence/defenses. Theres a ballance in this game. If you can get ppu defences and apu offence at same character this is overpower.
that would be overpowered, wouldn't it? Luckily no class can get that. So by your definition, nothing is overpowered in this game unless you add in a PPU.
can a ppu hyb cap a beam? or HL?
Nope. Neither can an APU hybrid with PE level defenses without PA switching AND a PPU.
So, by defintition a spy or a pe can never be a pure warrior.
Well I'm a paying customer and I want my spy to be able to fight as equal to a tank/monk.
NO! I didn't say that. I NEVER said that. In all three posts of the exact same thing I never said that.
i actually sorta prefer fighting a apu hyb a little as well.. fighting an apu is always a very fast fight win or lose but a apu hyb is more like fighting a balanced (even though its not) opponent with a bit of breathing room. apu hybs also fight with ppus less whereas seeing a lone apu is rare...
Mr Friendly
02-07-05, 04:03
i gotta disagree. APU hyb's arent all that. they take less damage than an APU... but lose some damage and mana pool.
i prefer fighting an APU hyb to any other monk
very true
& if i could guess, everyone that has voted yes to this poll either:
#1: dies alot to an apu hyb
#2: has never beaten an apu hybird
#3: doesnt like monks in general & votes yes just cuz it's against monks *cough* eprodigy
#4:has never even played as a apu hyb
apu hybs also fight with ppus
ive never seen a single apu hyb with a ppu...
ive seen a ppu hyb with one though...@_@
Well I'm a paying customer and I want my spy to be able to fight as equal to a tank/monk.
if u can snipe good, u can own pretty much neone if there's no ppu around.
ive never seen a single apu hyb with a ppu...
ive seen a ppu hyb with one though...@_@
That really depends where your at.
Though the apu and blessed hybrids are more self sufficent then the pure apu, needing only really a heal and primes (psi 3 :rolleyes: )
I've pvped quite abit on my ppu with both types of hybrids and it can work very well. Like 2 blessed hybrids with a ppu frees the ppu up to do whatever they wish (*cough* parashock, and more importantly antipara). Also the fact that your attacker can damage boost is a huge bonus.
Last night we went to cycrow with a blessed and apu hybrid (and me on a ppu) and it worked fairly well, even if pigman kept dieing O_o
very true
& if i could guess, everyone that has voted yes to this poll either:
#1: dies alot to an apu hyb
#2: has never beaten an apu hybird
#3: doesnt like monks in general & votes yes just cuz it's against monks *cough* eprodigy
#4:has never even played as a apu hyb
ive never seen a single apu hyb with a ppu...
ive seen a ppu hyb with one though...@_@
if u can snipe good, u can own pretty much neone if there's no ppu around. Well you are guessing wrong at least for me.
As things are now the hybrid, especially the apu hybrid, is THE most fun character to play. and as this game is about fun, it's about time kk do something so that other classes find there lost fun.
There are ppl tha voted yes because, like I do they understand that when a character can have better than PE defences, and better or equal to spy/tank offence then this character IS overpowered compared to the above classes. Or if you have better (a lot) than spy defences, same offence power and a DB on top of the cake, well what can we say? you are overpowred. I cant put it more simply than that...
And I dont/cant want to snipe. I want to duel. What if i was a slasher spy? What sort of argument was that?
Redflash helps runspeed, but that should be negligible as diminishing returns definately plays a role at the speed monks (without PA) run at. Paratemol Forte is just hp, hardly worth the chance of a drugflash and the.. 3k nc? Beast adds strength. Strength gives one gamma bone, 2 with a moveon. It might almost be worth it.. almost.. not really no. Spies and PEs drug to get full armor sets, new weapons, new spells and new implants not previously available. An APU hybrid gains nothing like that from drugs. Now if Kamis were in the game still, a certain Black Dragon drug would be very nice... :o
redflash helps big time, if u dont have all points in agl, same with beast, it adds massive speed.
and paratemol reduces the hp loss because of the beast.
if i could guess, everyone that has voted yes to this poll either:
#1: dies alot to an apu hyb
#2: has never beaten an apu hybird
#3: doesnt like monks in general & votes yes just cuz it's against monks *cough* eprodigy
#4:has never even played as a apu hyb
i dont like them (and monks in general mostly) because its lets people (cough you?) without skill be good. i beat them all the time and i just find it sad because they SHOULD be winning especially since i suck but at least i dont hide behind a class that lets me win. id stay the worst pe tank or spy in the game forever before id go so low as to play a monk... its not even as much being overpowered as just being pathetic
Dargeshaad
02-07-05, 09:01
& if i could guess, everyone that has voted yes to this poll either:
#1: dies alot to an apu hyb
#2: has never beaten an apu hybird
#3: doesnt like monks in general & votes yes just cuz it's against monks *cough* eprodigy
#4:has never even played as a apu hyb
I voted yes because I actually do play an apu hyb from time to time and know from personal experience how overpowered they are
Mr Friendly
02-07-05, 21:54
i dont like them (and monks in general mostly) because its lets people (cough you?) without skill be good. i beat them all the time and i just find it sad because they SHOULD be winning especially since i suck but at least i dont hide behind a class that lets me win. id stay the worst pe tank or spy in the game forever before id go so low as to play a monk... its not even as much being overpowered as just being pathetic
so b/c some kiddies who wanna play the "overpowered" (when its not) & they suck at it, u kill em, u assume all apu hybs are that bad? =) plzz ive taken on 3 low tech PEs at once, never zoned, never ran, all 3 died, 1 almost reached the zone. all 3 were P.I.M.P. :angel:
I voted yes because I actually do play an apu hyb from time to time and know from personal experience how overpowered they are
so b/c alotta ppl arent better than u makes the char type ur using overpowered?...dun think of it that way. the best pvPer in the game could play any class & be called overpowered. see what im sayin?
Jesterthegreat
02-07-05, 22:03
blessed hyb? yes.
APU hyb? no.
oh and can someone who isnt an edit away from their final ban reply to the post above mine plz... if you need inspiration as to what to say DM me
Mr Friendly
02-07-05, 23:29
oh and can someone who isnt an edit away from their final ban reply to the post above mine plz... if you need inspiration as to what to say DM me
dont even try to turn this thread into a flame war jester, i dont care what ur grudge is with me, just drop it.
if you wish to DM me about it ill explain my opinion
if u cant explain ur own opinion without flaming another's, then dont post at all.
"If you have nothing nice to say, then dont say anything at all" ;) :angel:
Jesterthegreat
02-07-05, 23:35
dont even try to turn this thread into a flame war jester, i dont care what ur grudge is with me, just drop it.
afaik i never even met you ingame. however my post was at least party on topic :p
if you wish to DM me about it ill explain my opinion
Lifewaster
03-07-05, 00:41
Well I recently lommed my ppu into ppu-hybrid and he really sucked.(Was using holy ppu stuff+psi attack1/energy halo) Granted he was gimped in freq cos of having poke and hack , but overall couldnt come near cap in damage or freq of his holy stuff...so in all his duels with pes he was casting holy heal at half the speed the pe was noob healing him with pretty much no chance to do anything as every time he started casting a heal, the pe promptly noob healed with a faster cast.......If I had the money at time to get slotted blessed ppu spells, then go for psi attack 2 etc, he might have been viable capping freq on blessed ppu stuff etc..
So now I have lommed to APU hybrid and it is a lot more fun but I dont feel overpowered thus far. Maybe If I lom the hack/poke to cap freqs it would be a lot stronger but the damage on an nrg beam (constructed to 120%) is about 460% ......this is with zero ppw and just enough PPU(84) to cap damage on the tl 10 heal.
I suspect there may be confusion when ppl meet an APU hybrid , leading to miss-amuptions about its power. For example if he has been prior buffed with lvl 3 from a PPU hes going to be way stronger with psi combat 3 etc.. and also, its very easy to think you are being hit with HL/Fire APoc when in fact your only being hit with nrg beam/flame avalanche ...etc
Self buffed in an op fight my defence is pretty crap , just slightly better then an unbuffed apu you may be able to take that one extra hit while running away and slowly reheal yourself back afterwards etc. What actually saves you a lot of the time is the fact that ppl mistake you for a ppu-sheltered APU and waste time trying to anti-buff you etc instead of just finishing you off :p
i dont see how apu hybs arent overpowered ? ive not actually done the math but id guess they can hit pe defenses/shelter, no aiming needed and even an uncapped HL is pretty powerful...
Jesterthegreat
03-07-05, 01:51
Zero ppw
ZERO PPW?!
Mr Friendly
03-07-05, 01:58
i dont see how apu hybs arent overpowered ? ive not actually done the math but id guess they can hit pe defenses/shelter, no aiming needed and even an uncapped HL is pretty powerful...
ive been an apu hyb since about 2 years ago so ill explain the details of the HL hyb.
first off, e beam hybs = suck. mine as well be using the hly enr halo.
So, using the HL & getting PE defences, ppu up to around 76+ able to use heat1/haz1/basic3 & blessed def. I myself had hacking but still have more than enough psi use so everything had cap freq cept for he hl & antishield. with no pa & apu coming to around 140ish, the % on a capped HL is around 430%. Even up to 155 apu, only about 470%. shelt high 400s, 500+ if u know what ur doing, & blessed def gettin around 400%. DB slightly lower than the shelt so again high 400s, 500+ if u know what ur doing. on a DBd target the HL with these %s, is i'd say on avg about 10 dmg less per hit than a capped HL. freq being at around 90-101ish.
i Tested one day in cycrow on a noob apu i was lvling for a mate. i barely had 170 apu so i was gettin around 520% on this HL. dmg to a tank with 40ish enr in armor & 114enr in con the dmg ranged from 25-75.
The main reason apu hybs arent overpowered is b/c of the crap % on the HL. they HAVE to have the DB on someone or they're hitting at the strength of a /40 noob. so in other words, use anti-DB, & u just cut the hyb's attack in 1/2. gives u good space to be able to kill him, cuz he then has to switch back to DB, cast on u, then back to spell, once he notices its gone. meanwhile a ppu hyb it doesnt matter much cuz of his defences. he can afford to throw a heal on himself, dodge around a bit & throw DB back on u. AND i know everyone has had these fights just not alot of em, usually fights during the night: a clan is attacking your OP, but they dont have a ppu. neither does your team. the attacking clan has a ppu hyb, whom never dies, whom can also rezz. the apu hyb on the other hand, gives buffs nobody else wants cuz of foriegn cast & cant rezz, & dies much quicker than a ppu hyb. like you say eprodigy which i agree also, ppu's screw up pvp. the best way to test fights, classes or a type being "overpowered" is when there's no ppu on either side. like the example i just gave.
____________________________________________________________
the only time an apu hyb is overpowered would be at an OP battle, being given psi3, cuz he now has a DB to cast freely & an HL with about 560%, doing massive ammounts to a DBd person. but newayz, thats ppus, screw em.
i think an apu hyb should be able to use haz1etc/lvl1s/blesseddef/shelter (better then PE with so much PSU), hit resists same or higher then PE with work, and taking off PA for buffs have 160+ apu. an arti HL with 160 apu does not hit like a /40 not to mention no aiming. use DB (or stick a couple more ppu for DB sanc so they cant counter/nowaste time) and its well past overpowered from what i can see.
Mr Friendly
03-07-05, 02:40
i think an apu hyb should be able to use haz1etc/lvl1s/blesseddef/shelter (better then PE with so much PSU), hit resists same or higher then PE with work, and taking off PA for buffs have 160+ apu. an arti HL with 160 apu does not hit like a /40 not to mention no aiming. use DB (or stick a couple more ppu for DB sanc so they cant counter/nowaste time) and its well past overpowered from what i can see.
thought u might say that, most of the guys who dont know about hybrids try the PA hyb setup, & with that u can only afford about 68ppu for blessed def, only about 70 ppw & the rest in apu, giving u around 160-162etc. yes that setup hits a lil better than a capped HL when DB is on the person, but cuz of having to wear PA, during a fight they're forced to use their shelt & & blessed def with only 68.
for sumthin shocking, take off the PA on that HL PA hyb & bam, ur lookin at the no PA HL hyb =p.
but newayz, the reason beingthe PA hyb is weaker cuz of having low %s on ppu spells with PA on, being forced to use them in a fight. which also means when longs run heat1/haz1/basic3, it cant be reapplied without taking off PA. & with an apu Hyb, the main resist buff is extremely important. without it ur just an apu with slightly less attack & slightly better defence & most likely a great loss of health.
i think an apu hyb should be able to use haz1etc/lvl1s/blesseddef/shelter (better then PE with so much PSU), hit resists same or higher then PE with work, and taking off PA for buffs have 160+ apu. an arti HL with 160 apu does not hit like a /40 not to mention no aiming. use DB (or stick a couple more ppu for DB sanc so they cant counter/nowaste time) and its well past overpowered from what i can see.
Ok I'm hoping you've actually tried playing as a hybrid at some time.
They are not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. Any old vets can tell you what it was like when your hybrid monk had only 2 points in PPW 116 PPU (i think) the rest in APU and all INT in PSI Use.
Now that was an overpowered hybrid. Holy Paralysis, Damage Boost followed by Holy Lightning all with good freq...
An APU biased hybrid is simply not overpowered in comparison.
Even with Blessed Deflector they can't stick pierce damage. A good PE with decent resists using pain easer or liberator can take down a APU biased hybrid especially if they can get a damage boost on them first.
Blessed/PPU Hybrids are a problem which could be easily solved by nerfing Blessed Heal 'slightly'.
Fair enough theres always the aiming issue to sort out but quite often a hybrid's main issues/problems stem for miscast's (usually for the new casting animation in nc2) or running out of psi energy.
I'm off to bed to sober up talk till ya all later.
thought u might say that, most of the guys who dont know about hybrids try the PA hyb setup, & with that u can only afford about 68ppu for blessed def, only about 70 ppw & the rest in apu, giving u around 160-162etc. yes that setup hits a lil better than a capped HL when DB is on the person, but cuz of having to wear PA, during a fight they're forced to use their shelt & & blessed def with only 68.
for sumthin shocking, take off the PA on that HL PA hyb & bam, ur lookin at the no PA HL hyb =p.
but newayz, the reason beingthe PA hyb is weaker cuz of having low %s on ppu spells with PA on, being forced to use them in a fight. which also means when longs run heat1/haz1/basic3, it cant be reapplied without taking off PA. & with an apu Hyb, the main resist buff is extremely important. without it ur just an apu with slightly less attack & slightly better defence & most likely a great loss of health.
so?? you would just not wear the PA so you can be slightly less overpowered? in that case its good the pa.. also i would take off pa for shelt/db cast as well. i may not have played a monk hyb much but i pull off pa on my pe's for deflector/buffs its well doable................. with better then PE defenses, tell me that uncapped HL doesnt outdamage any comparable PE usable weapon (especially with a DB/dbsanc), not to mention the.. no skill required to hit people with it... but id guess thats the reason you defend it...
They are not overpowered by any stretch of the imaginationapu hybrids are overpowered compared to other classes but not compared to the REALLY overpowered things like ppu hybs (and (people w/) ppus). so if there was only monks, then they would be only slightly too powerful. but in reality there shouldnt be monks at all.
Mr Friendly
03-07-05, 06:57
so?? you would just not wear the PA so you can be slightly less overpowered? in that case its good the pa.. also i would take off pa for shelt/db cast as well. i may not have played a monk hyb much but i pull off pa on my pe's for deflector/buffs its well doable................. with better then PE defenses, tell me that uncapped HL doesnt outdamage any comparable PE usable weapon (especially with a DB/dbsanc), not to mention the.. no skill required to hit people with it... but id guess thats the reason you defend it...
aight u just got busted, uve either never played as a hyb. dont post here lol :lol:
"no skill" u say, id put down $10,000 ud lose 10/10 fights against any known pvper using we'll say, sekh's apu hyb. :angel:
ive been an apu hyb since about 2 years ago so ill explain the details of the HL hyb.
first off, e beam hybs = suck. mine as well be using the hly enr halo.
So, using the HL & getting PE defences, ppu up to around 76+ able to use heat1/haz1/basic3 & blessed def. I myself had hacking but still have more than enough psi use so everything had cap freq cept for he hl & antishield. with no pa & apu coming to around 140ish, the % on a capped HL is around 430%. Even up to 155 apu, only about 470%. shelt high 400s, 500+ if u know what ur doing, & blessed def gettin around 400%. DB slightly lower than the shelt so again high 400s, 500+ if u know what ur doing. on a DBd target the HL with these %s, is i'd say on avg about 10 dmg less per hit than a capped HL. freq being at around 90-101ish. So, what we have here if we follow your numbers which are reality, is a PE or better in defences with a 400ish+ HL. DB way better than PEs, TL10 heals capped sanctums capped, actually ALL psi spell way better.
How does such a HL can be compared to a we/pe/libby? or CS/HL/whatever? Why does the above combination is not overpowered to PEs/spies? And what is more a spy can never reach poison resists the way a hybrid does, or am I mistaken?
Therefore, better defences, better offence, no drugs = overpower... I think
aight u just got busted, uve either never played as a hyb. dont post here lol :lol:
"no skill" u say, id put down $10,000 ud lose 10/10 fights against any known pvper using we'll say, sekh's apu hyb. :angel:
If i lost to a an apu hyb it wouldnt mean hes better he just plays an overpowered no skill needed class. anyone can own. and i love when people lose arguements so they have to resort to personal attacks...
Therefore, better defences, better offence, no drugs = overpower... I thinkexactly......
Lifewaster
03-07-05, 08:26
If i lost to a an apu hyb it wouldnt mean hes better he just plays an overpowered no skill needed class. anyone can own. and i love when people lose arguements so they have to resort to personal attacks...
I think he was talking about you being the one using the apu hybrid setup for the 10 fights.... /shrug
Jesterthegreat
03-07-05, 09:44
If i lost to a an apu hyb it wouldnt mean hes better he just plays an overpowered no skill needed class. anyone can own. and i love when people lose arguements so they have to resort to personal attacks...
always does with certain posters... he's one of the few people who says "longs" not primes so i am now wondering if he's one of the few people i have duelled against that say that... would explain why he's so twisted and bitter towards me ;)
:edit: oh and btw gimme a full capped monk with all the points free and ill make him into an APU hyb and fight whoever ya like friendly.
I have said this before and I want to say it again:
Hybrids atm are the most fun and well balanced character in neocron (even though overpowered when compared to other classes). They can make the game enjoyable to those that play them, they are Very versatile. It is about time I think that we make the game equally enjoyable for PEs/Spies. Hybrid monks can show the way. Imo i think drugflash for a spy or pe should become a think of the past. Under NO circumstance should we nerf the hybrids!
Jesterthegreat
03-07-05, 12:59
ive never had more fun on another char than on my PE. and theres no class i havent played.
However jester, a PE does little in an op war, or in a tunnel where there's need for powerfull aoe, while its very easy to transform a apu hyb in a apu for op wars... thats why im saying, they are fun to play ...
Jesterthegreat
03-07-05, 14:59
Average Joe has been to many many op wars in the time that i actually cared about taking ops.
i got at least as many kills on my PE as my APU.
:edit: but then my monk was well uncapped :p
However jester, a PE does little in an op war, Only people who act like they do nothing do little in a op war, i took my pe to op wars plenty, i am a all in fighter, ppu dosent need to worry about me and i dont need to rely on them, less they wanna chuck me a heal ere n there.
and tank a cron needs to make a return monks weakness to piercin needs upping i reckon, give them a weakness to think about, them wer days when op wars had more tanks than most other classes.... get them freezer cannons out!!!!
Average Joe has been to many many op wars in the time that i actually cared about taking ops.
i got at least as many kills on my PE as my APU.
:edit: but then my monk was well uncapped :p
Hey Jester, wanna duel again sometime? Last time we did, you were using a Tsunami rifle (8+ months ago) on average joe in the NF deck with a castle. Last time you fought my hybrid was in MB with a few distractions on my part.. :( You've duelled my PE very recently though. :p
You're one of the few people that gives me trouble (on my PE or my hybrid), so I think it'd be fun. :)
apu hybrids are overpowered compared to other classes but not compared to the REALLY overpowered things like ppu hybs (and (people w/) ppus). so if there was only monks, then they would be only slightly too powerful. but in reality there shouldnt be monks at all.
Eprodigy just hates all monks and thinks they're all overpowered, probably due to the aiming system. His sig also makes it obvious. It's kinda hard to argue against someone that thinks APU hybrids are overpowered because they're a monk. But I do agree on some points, like PPUs and PPU hybs. x.x Those can go die.
Dargeshaad
03-07-05, 17:17
You're one of the few people that gives me trouble (on my PE or my hybrid), so I think it'd be fun. :)
who are your chars ingame?
who are your chars ingame?
Well Sekhmet (terra) would be one. :)
Dargeshaad
03-07-05, 18:18
Well Sekhmet (terra) would be one. :)
never seen you....other chars? and on mars/merc?
Jesterthegreat
03-07-05, 18:30
at somepoint... DL's taking up all my bandwidth atm.
Well Sekhmet (terra) would be one. :)
see? plays an apu hyb. bias alert
see? plays an apu hyb. bias alert
I admitted my bias, I don't defend it. That's why I made this poll and voted "unsure". :p
Mr Friendly
03-07-05, 20:59
So, what we have here if we follow your numbers which are reality, is a PE or better in defences with a 400ish+ HL. DB way better than PEs, TL10 heals capped sanctums capped, actually ALL psi spell way better.
How does such a HL can be compared to a we/pe/libby? or CS/HL/whatever? Why does the above combination is not overpowered to PEs/spies? And what is more a spy can never reach poison resists the way a hybrid does, or am I mistaken?
Therefore, better defences, better offence, no drugs = overpower... I think
apu hybs have better defences than a PE in spell wise yes, but not by alot at all. PEs have much better xray, force, piercing, poison resist than an apu hyb. & a lil better in fire if the apu hyb invested in xray or atl, hlt por, etc. which balances them out in defences.
If i lost to a an apu hyb it wouldnt mean hes better he just plays an overpowered no skill needed class. anyone can own. and i love when people lose arguements so they have to resort to personal attacks...
u misread my post, i said ud lose 10/10 fights to any known pvper playing AS an apu hyb, & i said as sekh's apu hyb...cuz i gaurantee uve never played as one :angel:
apu hybs have better defences than a PE in spell wise yes, but not by alot at all. PEs have much better xray, force, piercing, poison resist than an apu hyb. & a lil better in fire if the apu hyb invested in xray or atl, hlt por, etc. which balances them out in defences. Your PE and Your hybrid maybe...
apu hybs have better defences than a PE in spell wise yes, but not by alot at all. PEs have much better xray, force, piercing, poison resist than an apu hyb. & a lil better in fire if the apu hyb invested in xray or atl, hlt por, etc. which balances them out in defences.
u misread my post, i said ud lose 10/10 fights to any known pvper playing AS an apu hyb, & i said as sekh's apu hyb...cuz i gaurantee uve never played as one :angel:
give me a capped apu hybrid i could beat a lot of people, i never said they were impossible to beat just more powerful then other classes. with an apu hybrid/monk in general you can be equal to another player that has a LOT more skill then you I didn't say skill didn't help its just not required.
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 03:12
Your PE and Your hybrid maybe...
actually no, i dont have a PE, im comparing based on LiLTerror's PE's con & my hybrids con & %s he & I both have on blessed def & shelt.
give me a capped apu hybrid i could beat a lot of people, i never said they were impossible to beat just more powerful then other classes. with an apu hybrid/monk in general you can be equal to another player that has a LOT more skill then you I didn't say skill didn't help its just not required.
they require "no skill" u keep saying, YET uve never played as an apu hyb, uve played a ppu hyb a little bit and you hate monks in general.....lol honestly, dont post here. ;)
today i was playing halo and it really reminded me of NC, idiots who whore the rocket launcher are sort of like monk players.. they only do good because they are using a cheap weapon and i just laugh when they have the highest score at the end.
actually no, i dont have a PE, im comparing based on LiLTerror's PE's con & my hybrids con & %s he & I both have on blessed def & shelt.
So, you are comparing to a low tech pe that can get the best defences as far as a pe can get, which also takes drugs as far as I know, for haz. So I can imagine this pe has better for/pie (by little) but your hyb has by definition better Energy(again by little) and better poison without the need to drug.
but if resists are somewhat equal, what about guns power? personally I would prefer a HL than a WE/lib/TSrifle.
what about drugs? LILt will get drugflash sooner or later will you?
What about reticles? If you fight in a war lilt's pistol/rifle will lose aim if more ppl get in his way and then he needs to wait for reticle to close again. You dont get this.
today i was playing halo and it really reminded me of NC, idiots who whore the rocket launcher are sort of like monk players.. they only do good because they are using a cheap weapon and i just laugh when they have the highest score at the end.
Or maybe they're doing good because they're the best player in the game and they decided to play seriously, using the best weapon they can find to maximize their potential.
How about this analogy...
Today I was watching a History Channel show about the F-14 fighter and it reminded me of NC, idiots who whore superior technology are sort of like monk players.. they only do good because they are using a cheap fighter and i just laugh when they have the most kills at the end.
... just ignore that U.S. Navy F-14 pilots are among the best pilots in the world. :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that all rocket launcher users are the best players in the game and I'm not saying that all monks are the best players in the game, but assuming that they're winning ONLY because of the tools they choose is ignorant.
So, you are comparing to a low tech pe that can get the best defences as far as a pe can get, which also takes drugs as far as I know, for haz. So I can imagine this pe has better for/pie (by little) but your hyb has by definition better Energy(again by little) and better poison without the need to drug.
Not really, PEs have better poison without drugging.
but if resists are somewhat equal, what about guns power? personally I would prefer a HL than a WE/lib/TSrifle.
what about drugs? LILt will get drugflash sooner or later will you?
I'd prefer HL too, but those piercing guns wreak havoc against monks.
You don't need drugs to make a PE good.
Not really, PEs have better poison without drugging.
I'd prefer HL too, but those piercing guns wreak havoc against monks.
You don't need drugs to make a PE good. how? lol by magic? :D
Tell me, I would reallly like to know. I might as well get back to PE, you never know...
Jesterthegreat
04-07-05, 07:46
i dont have a PE
uve never played as an apu hyb -snip- lol honestly, dont post here. ;)
someone needs to take their own advice...
he cant post cos he isnt an APU hyb, but you carry on posting despite not being a PE...
I'm not saying that all rocket launcher users are the best players in the game and I'm not saying that all monks are the best players in the game, but assuming that they're winning ONLY because of the tools they choose is ignorant.
..valid point i suppose but there shouldnt be any particular class, weapon, or item that allows the possibility of someone performing better then they should, in comparison to people using the other (items weapons classes) if I know what i mean..
how? lol by magic? :D
Tell me, I would reallly like to know. I might as well get back to PE, you never know...
Viper King armor? More con points? Filter heart? Just think about it, it isn't that hard.
..valid point i suppose but there shouldnt be any particular class, weapon, or item that allows the possibility of someone performing better then they should, in comparison to people using the other (items weapons classes) if I know what i mean..
Yep, in an ideal world where KK had enough money and manpower to worry about class balance everything would be better. But they don't, they have to worry about more pressing matters such as fixing bugs and keeping the game alive.
You don't need drugs to make a PE good.a lowtech pe but then you dont get near the damage a HL hyb would. even a drugged high tech pe can almost hit the resists but still not the dmg output... (minus the better s/d/db)..
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 07:55
someone needs to take their own advice...
he cant post cos he isnt an APU hyb, but you carry on posting despite not being a PE...
quite possibly cuz this thread isnt about a pe, but... *GASP* an apu hyb ... :rolleyes:
a lowtech pe but then you dont get near the damage a HL hyb would. even a drugged high tech pe can almost hit the resists but still not the dmg output... (minus the better s/d/db)..
PEs can stealth now, monks cant. PEs can reload quick if they want, monks get screwed if they dont hit a booster in time. (shelt 25 enr, blessed def, 31 enr, HL, 35enr) guessing
& if its an apu hyb who wears PA, hes not as fast as the PE.
So, you are comparing to a low tech pe that can get the best defences as far as a pe can get, which also takes drugs as far as I know, for haz. So I can imagine this pe has better for/pie (by little) but your hyb has by definition better Energy(again by little) and better poison without the need to drug.
but if resists are somewhat equal, what about guns power? personally I would prefer a HL than a WE/lib/TSrifle.
what about drugs? LILt will get drugflash sooner or later will you?
What about reticles? If you fight in a war lilt's pistol/rifle will lose aim if more ppl get in his way and then he needs to wait for reticle to close again. You dont get this.
well its not exactly easy to compare. my apu hyb doesnt drug for nething, lil T only drugs to put on haz, nothing else. He uses a wep that has a clip of 40 rounds 8 bursts, his reload time is about 1.5 secs & he's back to 8 more bursts. meanwhile an apu if down to no energy will be screwed seeing as how the boosters arent fast enough, his cast time constantly would be cut down to about 1 cast every 2.5 secs or so. yes monks dont have a recticle but when u see ur mana near zero & ur miscasting, ..thats a BIG prob. after a miscast its like a delay, u have to wait about a sec before u can cast again. that & our range isnt far.
im not saying apu hybs are weaker than any class, im saying they're equal to any class & not overpowered. like Sekh said with that analogy, they may be a cheap, but some of the best in the game/world use them.
for an example we'll go back to old skool hybs, think, if all of the great known hybs didnt exist, would the hybs have been nerfed?...
cc, cylon, hinch, etc
all because a select few are great at playing a hyb & win nearly every fight they're in, doesnt mean the entire class needs to get nerfed.
another example: a sniper one-shot-kill in an FPS, out of range of neone, will usually kill at least 2-5 ppl before he's even found or killed. cheap. any noob can be good with em. but when ur at him up close? all he has is a knife & pistol >: ) ::::: every char type has its pros & cons, its strong points & its weaknessess.
_____________________
& now that i think of it....why is an apu hyb being compared to a PE in the first place all cuz it has the defences of a PE?.....tanks dont have buffs nor the defences of a PE cuz of the no s/d, etc. but their offence (1/2 of which is force, a monk's weakness) is much stronger. put any apu hyb up against a tank & PE, the tank has a better chance of killing em. apu hybs dont have healing power a ppu hyb has, a tank can shread an apu hyb. especially a basic apu, an apu taking from 75-95 dmg per burst the apu needs to deal 7-8 HLs to the tank to kill, tank needing to do 4-5 to kill. against an apu hyb, about 8-10ish depending on ur resists, same with a capped HL. meanwhile the hyb HAS to keep DB on u & i know plenty of tanks who have 2 antishocks, 2 antiDBs in the belt. cutting the offence in 1/2.
etc
Jesterthegreat
04-07-05, 07:56
Viper King armor? More con points? Filter heart? Just think about it, it isn't that hard. you still get better resists while drugging regardless. haz1 is br2 with added points... theres no way you couldnt get more from it.
Yeah, drugging always helps but it isn't required.
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 08:32
you still get better resists while drugging regardless. haz1 is br2 with added points... theres no way you couldnt get more from it.
ive had many PEs lose to me in my time b/c of them having to reapply the drug from their inventory & reaply the haz1. PEs should realize a simple stop to open inventory & pop a drug when u have a good fighter aginst u who keeps his/her aim & eye on u, can easily rip u a new coin slot in the few secs ur standing still.
Jesterthegreat
04-07-05, 08:37
ive had many PEs lose to me in my time b/c of them having to reapply the drug from their inventory & reaply the haz1. PEs should realize a simple stop to open inventory & pop a drug when u have a good fighter aginst u who keeps his/her aim & eye on u, can easily rip u a new coin slot in the few secs ur standing still.
only a moron times their drugs to run out mid fight...
hell even when i do it in NF (if i dont die after many fights) i still win sometimes :p
plus if you're worried about it you can leave the mouse over your drug. tab, right click, left click, tab. done.
also its entirely possible to have both... use it normally but leave br2 in your QB for emergency buffage.
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 08:40
only a moron times their drugs to run out mid fight...
hell even when i do it in NF (if i dont die after many fights) i still win sometimes :p
plus if you're worried about it you can leave the mouse over your drug. tab, right click, left click, tab. done.
also its entirely possible to have both... use it normally but leave br2 in your QB for emergency buffage.
u cant time when someone's going to jump u...
well its not exactly easy to compare. my apu hyb doesnt drug for nething, lil T only drugs to put on haz, nothing else. He uses a wep that has a clip of 40 rounds 8 bursts, his reload time is about 1.5 secs & he's back to 8 more bursts. meanwhile an apu if down to no energy will be screwed seeing as how the boosters arent fast enough, his cast time constantly would be cut down to about 1 cast every 2.5 secs or so. yes monks dont have a recticle but when u see ur mana near zero & ur miscasting, ..thats a BIG prob. after a miscast its like a delay, u have to wait about a sec before u can cast again. that & our range isnt far.
im not saying apu hybs are weaker than any class, im saying they're equal to any class & not overpowered. like Sekh said with that analogy, they may be a cheap, but some of the best in the game/world use them. IT's yr responsibilty to maintain high mana, as is LIlt 's responsibity to maintain high stamina for the weapons he uses. This no argument. However as you admit lilt takes a drug that might lead to drugflash, which will kill him in the ehat of the battle no matter what... So we do agree here that something needs to be done for lilt in case of drugs ok?
& now that i think of it....why is an apu hyb being compared to a PE in the first place all cuz it has the defences of a PE?.....tanks dont have buffs nor the defences of a PE cuz of the no s/d, etc. but their offence (1/2 of which is force, a monk's weakness) is much stronger. put any apu hyb up against a tank & PE, the tank has a better chance of killing em. apu hybs dont have healing power a ppu hyb has, a tank can shread an apu hyb. especially a basic apu, an apu taking from 75-95 dmg per burst the apu needs to deal 7-8 HLs to the tank to kill, tank needing to do 4-5 to kill. against an apu hyb, about 8-10ish depending on ur resists, same with a capped HL. meanwhile the hyb HAS to keep DB on u & i know plenty of tanks who have 2 antishocks, 2 antiDBs in the belt. cutting the offence in 1/2.
etc Since when Force is a monk's weakness???
If we leave skill out since its dependant on players abilities, then the hyb is the Theoretical winner, whichever way you look at it. You dont have an apu here, you have a pe with better spells and HL. the tank needs to hit some 10-12 times to kill it. now add to this a db and the tank dies in 7-8 HL. Add a TL10 heal.... bye bye tanky...
u cant time when someone's going to jump u...
You can.. if you're omniscient.
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 08:48
You can.. if you're omniscient.
ah yes lol
LIlt 's responsibity to maintain high stamina
stam boosters = insta refill
psi mana boosters = take time.
the tank needs to hit some 10-12 times to kill it. now add to this a db and the tank dies in 7-8 HL. Add a TL10 heal.... bye bye tanky...
& a tank needs how many CS bursts to kill an apu hyb?...exactly. & tank has what? anti-DB drugs yesss
Jesterthegreat
04-07-05, 08:48
u cant time when someone's going to jump u...
ok. if you played a PE you may be drugged 24/7... but i should tell you thats a stupid thing to do.
if jumpped hit that LE button (nib stealth), go round the corner, drug, buff, kill.
better yet put a drug or 2 in your QB. problem solved. i currently have 2 slots for medikits on my PE which could be used for drugs if i'm not planning on a fight.
Yeah, drugging always helps but it isn't required. Anyway, you have started a post in which you werent sure about apu hybrids being overpowered or not. We present you arguments that indicate this and you, as stubborn dont accept the truth. Show us ONE just ONE pe or spy that is not taking drugs and I will show 100 monks.
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 08:54
Anyway, you have started a post in which you werent sure about apu hybrids being overpowered or not. We present you arguments that indicate this and you, as stubborn dont accept the truth. Show us ONE just ONE pe or spy that is not taking drugs and I will show 100 monks.
u realise PEs & Spies drugging is the new fad to be "leet" right?....
psi mana boosters = take time. ooo i love this guys. you really love to argue dont you? its the essence of your life isnt it?
So you take psi boosters when mana is@ 2/3 or even less, depending on yr ability to aim. problem solved
& a tank needs how many CS bursts to kill an apu hyb?...exactly. & tank has what? anti-DB drugs yesss the tank has limited antis, and the tank doesnt have tl10 heal and we are again back in skill. leave skill out. define a procedure to follow to show ofences/defenses
nothing of what mr friendlys said (or at least what i can translate from whatever language he's speaking ...) has done anything to "prove" they aren't overpowered. its a fact monks need some serious changes.... ALL types of monks just some less then others. personally i think there shouldnt be two types of hybrids possible just one in the middle and it should be balanced similarly to a PE. the two ends, PPU/APU need work as well.. apu needs a reticle and ppu needs a nerf
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 09:17
ooo i love this guys. you really love to argue dont you? its the essence of your life isnt it?
So you take psi boosters when mana is@ 2/3 or even less, depending on yr ability to aim. problem solved
the tank has limited antis, and the tank doesnt have tl10 heal and we are again back in skill. leave skill out. define a procedure to follow to show ofences/defenses
well i cant let u keep misleading ppl now can i? stam boosters are far better than any psi booster, u could wait till ur down to 1 stam, & bing, back to full. also taking into consideration how much more rapidly psi mana depletes than stamina...think
nothing of what mr friendlys said (or at least what i can translate from whatever language he's speaking ...) has done anything to "prove" they aren't overpowered. its a fact monks need some serious changes.... ALL types of monks just some less then others. personally i think there shouldnt be two types of hybrids possible just one in the middle and it should be balanced similarly to a PE. the two ends, PPU/APU need work as well.. apu needs a reticle and ppu needs a nerf
re-read the posts then o_O :rolleyes:
re-write the posts :rolleyes:
things to remember to add for when you do:
- a point
- english
:lol: well im sorry you dont understand. Guess a smaller dictionary i should use? :angel:
re-read the posts then o_O :rolleyes:
re-write the posts :rolleyes:
things to remember to add for when you do:
- a point
- english
well i cant let u keep misleading ppl now can i? stam boosters are far better than any psi booster, u could wait till ur down to 1 stam, & bing, back to full. also taking into consideration how much more rapidly psi mana depletes than stamina...think
re-read the posts then o_O :rolleyes:
:lol: well im sorry you dont understand. Guess a smaller dictionary i should use? :angel: So now, its the psi boosters that you dont like? ask them to make like stamina boosters. I wonder what will come next... monk auto aim lock, so you wont misscast :D:D
........u realise PEs & Spies drugging is the new fad to be "leet" right?....
what's that supposed to mean?
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 09:44
So now, its the psi boosters that you dont like? ask them to make like stamina boosters. I wonder what will come next... monk auto aim lock, so you wont misscast :D:D
........u realise PEs & Spies drugging is the new fad to be "leet" right?....
what's that supposed to mean?
:rolleyes: :lol:
So now, its the psi boosters that you dont like? ask them to make like stamina boosters. I wonder what will come next... monk auto aim lock, so you wont misscast
i said i wanted em instant?.....just showin how stam boosters are better than psi boosters, meaning the PEs thing to have to keep their stam up is lovely bs compared to what any monk in general has to do while keeping their mana up.
:rolleyes: :lol:
i said i wanted em instant?.....just showin how stam boosters are better than psi boosters, meaning the PEs thing to have to keep their stam up is lovely bs compared to what any monk in general has to do while keeping their mana up. keeping a monk's mana high must be one of the most difficult things in nc2...
Anyway, you have started a post in which you werent sure about apu hybrids being overpowered or not. We present you arguments that indicate this and you, as stubborn dont accept the truth. Show us ONE just ONE pe or spy that is not taking drugs and I will show 100 monks.
Me, my PE doesnt take drugs. I know a bunch of others too.
And about being stubborn... the points most of you bring up are bad points, they're simply wrong. Some are good, but most, the ones I argue against, is just misinformed 2nd hand information that's exagerated and used as an argument.
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 11:25
keeping a monk's mana high must be one of the most difficult things in nc2...
i give up, cant reason with kids like this, all urs sekh
keeping a monk's mana high must be one of the most difficult things in nc2...
It's not difficult, but it is a losing battle. Eventually you'll run out of psi if you're firing at full speed with HL and almost constantly taking psi boosters. No matter how "good" or "bad" you are, your psi will run out. You'll either be forced to stop firing because lack of psi or you'll voluntarilly do it earlier so you have some in reserve just in case... but it's inevitable that you'll run out of psi.
Jesterthegreat
04-07-05, 13:32
u realise PEs & Spies drugging is the new fad to be "leet" right?....
this is a "fad"? ok... get a non drug spy (your own or a friends) to fight a drugging spy of the same skill.
jini and the others bring up valid points, to which you reply "no, you're wrong".
monks are inbalanced. monks do almost everything in the game better than any other class. whether you choose to admit it or not.
Lifewaster
04-07-05, 14:13
Just a thought, but how about just removing the psi-combat buffs from the game ?
As someone said earlier, the only time apu-hyb is really overpowered is when they get ppu buffed then basically become a capped apu with a damage boost...
i give you a no vote and i'm not going to explain it either just tell you its a no vote because i know better than you basically :)
APU hybs are quite powerfull and easly the best solo class in the game but I'd much prefer to fight one than fight a APU/PPU team. APU hybs are very close to what I think monks should have been, with a little tweaking I think it would fix the monk problem.
Spells effectiveness should be dertermined by range, not too close and not to far, kind of like an optimal range. You see if they only had to be as close as possible to do max damage then that would be stupid, its to easy to keep close to your target in this game. That would only make them more powerfull especialy when we have parrashock, I only brought this up when I saw Lupus had said something about spells doing damage based on range.
APU hybs are quite powerfull and easly the best solo class in the game but I'd much prefer to fight one than fight a APU/PPU team. APU hybs are very close to what I think monks should have been, with a little tweaking I think it would fix the monk problem.
I agree 100%. Give APU hybs a 20 sec rez (yes 20 seconds) and we can do away with PPUs!
Spells effectiveness should be dertermined by range, not too close and not to far, kind of like an optimal range. You see if they only had to be as close as possible to do max damage then that would be stupid, its to easy to keep close to your target in this game. That would only make them more powerfull especialy when we have parrashock, I only brought this up when I saw Lupus had said something about spells doing damage based on range.
That would be fine if being next to someone makes a spell do the same damage it does now (not quite the max damage of HL's random damage, maybe like 2/3 of the max random), and it goes down linearly until max range. It wouldn't make monks more powerful at all and it would definately deal with the HL sniping problem.
i give you a no vote and i'm not going to explain it either just tell you its a no vote because i know better than you basically :)
well, u have to vote for "no, they are not".
otherwise it'd be a selfown.
Mr Friendly
04-07-05, 20:24
Just a thought, but how about just removing the psi-combat buffs from the game ?
As someone said earlier, the only time apu-hyb is really overpowered is when they get ppu buffed then basically become a capped apu with a damage boost...
its the apu hyb wearing PA, with psi up to about 178 apu putting the HL % up to about 580% while still being able to DB etc.
i give you a no vote and i'm not going to explain it either just tell you its a no vote because i know better than you basically
i need to start usin this strategy >_<
I agree 100%. Give APU hybs a 20 sec rez (yes 20 seconds) and we can do away with PPUs!
its a great way to fix everything....but we both know the monk fix is waaaay in the back of the line of things-to-do =/
either that or for a smaller nerf, make s/d selfcast only
its a great way to fix everything....but we both know the monk fix is waaaay in the back of the line of things-to-do =/
either that or for a smaller nerf, make s/d selfcast only
making s/d selfcast only would make fights super short I think, unless PPUs are removed in which case it wouldn't really matter then.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 19:34
making s/d selfcast only would make fights super short I think, unless PPUs are removed in which case it wouldn't really matter then.
watch 2 good, skilled PE's fight.
then say that again honestly.
a fight without holy para, without a capped DB... not only is it fun but its long too. someone who just spams their gun may think they can make it quick, but the guy healing and dodging will last longer...
making s/d selfcast only would make fights super short I think, unless PPUs are removed in which case it wouldn't really matter then.
no one who played back in the ppu-less time would talk shit like that.
and tbh, if theres no hh, hs, hd anymore, there is no need for those superstrong rare weapons. u just need rare weapons to damage ppl with ppu support.
no one who played back in the ppu-less time would talk shit like that.basically what he said lol
Every op war i remember back then even in hybrid days was bags of fun and it was always worth going for a fight even freezer wars was funny while it lasted lol
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 19:47
in fact watch me and eric duel...
we dueled for 4 SD's (8 mins?) in one fight once ;)
i dont see that as short :D
i remember the good old fights on jupiter, no ppus, pe's, monks, spies, tanks, no rares, no stealth, but hours of fighting and amazing fun ...
jest, i had to redrug the 10 mins drugs during the fight :p
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 19:55
lord... did we redrug too?
my mind is melted i swear. i'm 20 and my memory has disappeared.
i was using hl, so i had to redrug ...
really hurts if u stand still for like 2, 3 seconds in a 1 on 1 :D
PEs vs PEs doesn't count, they're a low damage high defense class. :p I'm talking about op wars in which people focus fire. Should've noted that. x.x I'm leaving a lot out of my posts lately.. x.x. I was talking about group fights in which PPUs would make a difference, not 1v1 in which PPUs don't really exist.
no one who played back in the ppu-less time would talk shit like that.
Why does everyone make assumptions and play the "I'm a vet therefore I'm right, noob" card?
and tbh, if theres no hh, hs, hd anymore, there is no need for those superstrong rare weapons. u just need rare weapons to damage ppl with ppu support. Ok you have two PEs fight with Tangent Auto Pistols... have fun. Rare weapons should still stay in so 1v1 fights end at some point.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 20:45
PEs vs PEs doesn't count, they're a low damage high defense class. :p I'm talking about op wars in which people focus fire. Should've noted that. x.x I'm leaving a lot out of my posts lately.. x.x. I was talking about group fights in which PPUs would make a difference, not 1v1 in which PPUs don't really exist. average joe op warred with NC's Elite loads. and i did it self buffed half the time (saves hassle for everyone else). i got many kills at op wars ;)
Why does everyone make assumptions and play the "I'm a vet therefore I'm right, noob" card? what he's saying is that there was a time when ppu's werent like this, and when a pure ppu was a rare sight. in those days fights werent particularly shorter than now, just different (more fun for a start)
Ok you have two PEs fight with Tangent Auto Pistols... have fun. Rare weapons should still stay in so 1v1 fights end at some point.
slutsumi with a TPC. killed capped tanks while he couldn use PA yet. in duels.
rares arent needed... but they are a nice boost.
PEs vs PEs doesn't count, they're a low damage high defense class.
sure, slasher+dmgb is low dmg ... judge + dmgb is low dmg ... hl/fl + dmgb is low dmg ...
:p I'm talking about op wars in which people focus fire. Should've noted that. x.x I'm leaving a lot out of my posts lately.. x.x. I was talking about group fights in which PPUs would make a difference, not 1v1 in which PPUs don't really exist.
... and ? i was talking about op-fights too...
if u dont have a ppu who can outheal all the dmg u'd have to take care of ur char, monks should stay back, tanks and pe's would have to be the first line, etc etc ... ever heard of strategy ?
Why does everyone make assumptions and play the "I'm a vet therefore I'm right, noob" card?
it was just a proof for u being wrong.
everyone who says, fights without ppus would be too short has no clue. coz the past showed that fights without ppus being involved can last for hours ...
Ok you have two PEs fight with Tangent Auto Pistols... have fun. Rare weapons should still stay in so 1v1 fights end at some point.
tbh, i was talking about tangent pulselaser, tangent plasma wave / tangent plasma cannon, gatlin rifles, energy beam etc ...
do u know why they had to invent the rare weapons ? and when they did that ?
$tormbringer
05-07-05, 20:53
[...]do u know why they had to invent the rare weapons ? and when they did that ?
I know it.
And it wasn't when you think it was.
but i know why they had to bring them ingame.
sure, slasher+dmgb is low dmg ... judge + dmgb is low dmg ... hl/fl + dmgb is low dmg ...
Yeah mostly. CS+db is a lot better than judge+db.
... and ? i was talking about op-fights too...
if u dont have a ppu who can outheal all the dmg u'd have to take care of ur char, monks should stay back, tanks and pe's would have to be the first line, etc etc ... ever heard of strategy ?
Strategies like that don't work in NC. With the run speed, clippping plane, and how long it takes to kill any char (more than 3 seconds... a long time compared to normal FPSs), the enemy can be inside your lines before you barely get a couple of shots. Standing in ranks like Pre-ww1 era battles doesn't work. Fights are close range, not long range.
it was just a proof for u being wrong.
everyone who says, fights without ppus would be too short has no clue. coz the past showed that fights without ppus being involved can last for hours ...
You don't know me, you don't know how long I've played and you made a wrong assumption. Your proof is faulty. Now if you consider an op fight in which the defending side dies, grs to a nearby op, gets repoked and fights again, that's not a single fight. You're just wiping them out and fighting them again. Even fights WITH PPUs don't last "hours".
tbh, i was talking about tangent pulselaser, tangent plasma wave / tangent plasma cannon, gatlin rifles, energy beam etc ...
Ah, lowtech weapons aren't viable. Thanks for notifying me.
do u know why they had to invent the rare weapons ? and when they did that ? Honestly, no. But rare weapons were in the game when NC1 hit retail. Do you honestly know why rare weapons were put into the game? I would guess that rare weapons were put into the game as high-end content. I think the answer you were searching for was so that rare weapons could defeat ppus.
Jesterthegreat
05-07-05, 21:01
Yeah mostly. CS+db is a lot better than judge+db.
find me a tank who can DB, or a PE who uses a CS (outside of pandore)
Yeah mostly. CS+db is a lot better than judge+db.
so pe is a low dmg class ... :rolleyes: ?
Strategies like that don't work in NC. With the run speed, clippping plane, and how long it takes to kill any char (more than 3 seconds... a long time compared to normal FPSs), the enemy can be inside your lines before you barely get a couple of shots. Standing in ranks like Pre-ww1 era battles doesn't work. Fights are close range, not long range.
those strategies did work in the (ppuless) past.
ofc they dont work anymore.
You don't know me, you don't know how long I've played and you made a wrong assumption. Your proof is faulty. Now if you consider an op fight in which the defending side dies, grs to a nearby op, gets repoked and fights again, that's not a single fight. You're just wiping them out and fighting them again. Even fights WITH PPUs don't last "hours".
looks like u never tooked part of op-fights without ppus and even not op-fight with ppus ...
Ah, lowtech weapons aren't viable. Thanks for notifying me.
lowtechweapons ? like gatlins ?
Honestly, no. But rare weapons were in the game when NC1 hit retail. Do you honestly know why rare weapons were put into the game? I would guess that rare weapons were put into the game as high-end content. I think the answer you were searching for was so that rare weapons could defeat ppus.
there is no need for rare weapons if there would be no ppu. but u need rare weapons to kill ppus or runner with ppu support.
fights without ppus and without rare weapons would last a long time i think. well, i know it.
$tormbringer
05-07-05, 21:12
but i know why they had to bring them ingame.
No, you don't.
Rare weapons weren't added to counter "The PPU", because of the simple reason that rare weapons were added before the patch that brought forth the apocal...err..."The PPU".
Btw. if you haven't noticed by now, it's not $torm writing.
so pe is a low dmg class ... :rolleyes: ?
yes
those strategies did work in the (ppuless) past.
ofc they dont work anymore.
What server did you play on?
On pluto people tried it, and got slaughtered. There's too many problems with long range weapons, clipping plane and defense to make a strategy like that work.
looks like u never tooked part of op-fights without ppus and even not op-fight with ppus ...
no, it looks like the op fights we participate in are very different. Please stop with the personal attacks, it doesn't get the debate anywhere.
there is no need for rare weapons if there would be no ppu. but u need rare weapons to kill ppus or runner with ppu support.
fights without ppus and without rare weapons would last a long time i think. well, i know it.
That's true but that's not the point. The point of rare weapons is high-end content. If you don't have rare weapons, pve would be useless after capping.. besides WoC.
i know its phobos .
but u cant deny the facts.
the only reason for keeping the rare weapons is that u cant damage ppus or by ppu supported ppl without them.
i know its phobos .
but u cant deny the facts.
the only reason for keeping the rare weapons is that u cant damage ppus or by ppu supported ppl without them.
It's for end-game content. Without rare weapons we'd have a game where you spend 2 weeks to cap (give or take a week or two.. :p) then PvP for the rest of your time. That's not really an MMORPG, it's just a big FPS. NC is NC because it has aspects of both RPGs and FPSs, it's not entirely one or the other. If you take out rare weapons, might as well take out tradeskilling... make all storebought weapons the best quality...
yes
slasher + dmgb is one of the strongest weapon in the game. its more powerfull then healing light, fl, cs, rav, lib, judge, speedgat etc etc ... only apu weapons are stronger i think.
What server did you play on?
On pluto people tried it, and got slaughtered. There's too many problems with long range weapons, clipping plane and defense to make a strategy like that work.
uranus and jupiter.
no, it looks like the op fights we participate in are very different. Please stop with the personal attacks, it doesn't get the debate anywhere.
dont think there is a big difference between the op-fights u take part of and i take part of.
u'r just denying the facts tbh.
That's true but that's not the point. The point of rare weapons is high-end content. If you don't have rare weapons, pve would be useless after capping.. besides WoC.
pve is useless after a few days, when u got ur chars capped with full equipment.
$tormbringer
05-07-05, 21:24
i know its phobos .
but u cant deny the facts.
the only reason for keeping the rare weapons is that u cant damage ppus or by ppu supported ppl without them.
I never said rare weapons weren't boosted, because of the PPU.
I said they weren't added because of the PPU.
Anyway, you should stop it.
This discussion is leading nowhere just like the bajillion before, you don't even play this pos game, so why even bother?
i dont play this game ? 2 of 3 accs are active, last time i logged in was ... 3 hours ago.
dont think there is a big difference between the op-fights u take part of and i take part of.
u'r just denying the facts tbh.
There obviously is a big difference or we wouldn't have such big differences in our experience. Why would I be denying the facts?
The point of me ignoring DB is that once a target is DB'd, the PE isn't the only one attacking them, there is probably allies around that have weapons like a CS or Holy Lightning or something that make better use out of damage boost. 1v1, druggie PEs are one of the best classes in the game (classes being the 4 classes and variants in setups).
Mr Friendly
05-07-05, 22:38
i know its phobos .
but u cant deny the facts.
the only reason for keeping the rare weapons is that u cant damage ppus or by ppu supported ppl without them.
& so by taking away the rares the apu haves with there being no ppus, apus become the weakest chars in the game having to use a fire & enr beam. a non druggie spy could waste em.
(there's a reason for the apu having such a strong wep)
but imho, the HL needs to be toned back down a lil bit.
of which without rare weps, apu hybs would then be overpowered, tanks trying to kill em with a speed gat or TL87 plasma cannon lol.
In order to make a decision that will cause a change, you have to be able to visualize the results & possiblities. Put that in ur pipe & smoke it. (take it & learn from it)
$tormbringer
05-07-05, 22:40
i dont play this game ? 2 of 3 accs are active, last time i logged in was ... 3 hours ago.
This ends this conversation, in closing I'd like to say:
You are a retard for still playing AND paying for this pos.
tbh, i dont really care what a nib thinks about meh. talking big is all u are and u were up to.
mr.friendly, still trying to ignore me :lol: ?
I have playd this silly game for nearly 3 years and every now and then this discustion pops upp.
Inn NC 1 there were few owerpowered apu hybrids with kamy cips and they were overpowered cause they cauld runcast HL with good enaugh resist to kill any class before geting killed ( we tested it inn NF and we let the apu hitt 50% and the other class 100% hitt and still the dam apu won , even agaisnt meele tanks and druged upp spys and tanks with devourers) so KK removed these silly kamy chips insted of changing them..
But since NC1 I havent meet any overpowered apu based hybrids, so I dont thing either apu hybrids or apu's are overpowered atm. And since I have newer played a monk I dont know how the aiming works on em. but other thing I have noticed are tanks and Pe's and spy's with totaly screewed upp aiming, e.r. hitting less then 20 % ( cauld be players with bad computers or shitty ping or somehting)
and even if some class is overpowered it doesnt mean we stop playing NC, we rather sit down and find a way to kill the overpowered ones cause there is alvays a way. and I also find this discustion funny cause I tought people inn this game didnt duel anymore, or at least that is my experience, what people do these days is if they loose they bring friends ( wich I thing is pretty logical
if we dont have honour)
grats,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Zyccy the beast ......... Rebel with a cause ,,,
of which without rare weps, apu hybs would then be overpowered, tanks trying to kill em with a speed gat or TL87 plasma cannon lol.
Nothing can outheal a speedgat ;)
Mr Friendly
06-07-05, 08:24
tbh, i dont really care what a nib thinks about meh. talking big is all u are and u were up to.
mr.friendly, still trying to ignore me :lol: ?
actually i run defragment & adaware +spybot nightly & delete all cookies & temp internet files online & offline. so when i come back here usually, cuz of the deletion the forum doesnt auto log me in, so unfortunately yes i have to see ur meaningless im a baddass posts ;) btw none of what i said had a thing to do with what i think of u :wtf: just correcting u on some things u said earlier, though i was a bit late from other ppl's posts
Nothing can outheal a speedgat ;)
with a TL10 heal & a blessed def, GL to ya ;)
I don't think APU hybrids are overpowered in PvP personally (if they don't have a PSI3 on them, otherwise they are just APUs that can nib buff), because they've either got not enough PPU to make a differnce on their S/D, or not enough APU to really hurt.
PEs vs PEs doesn't count, they're a low damage high defense class.
Thats why my Slasher PE, when fully buffed and drugged up, can take equal damage to a tank (just with lower overall health), and deal out the same damage as a Spy (and thats when I don't use DB). I'd say that was high defense high damage personally, seeing as the only thing I have difficulty killing is a Blessed Hybrid (provided I am having a good day with aiming :p ). But what would I know, I only play a PE as my main character :rolleyes:
I don't think APU hybrids are overpowered in PvP personally (if they don't have a PSI3 on them, otherwise they are just APUs that can nib buff), because they've either got not enough PPU to make a differnce on their S/D, or not enough APU to really hurt.
Thats why my Slasher PE, when fully buffed and drugged up, can take equal damage to a tank (just with lower overall health), and deal out the same damage as a Spy (and thats when I don't use DB). I'd say that was high defense high damage personally, seeing as the only thing I have difficulty killing is a Blessed Hybrid (provided I am having a good day with aiming :p ). But what would I know, I only play a PE as my main character :rolleyes: Yes, but you said it, you need drugs.
And what do you do when you face a melee tank using PoB?
Dargeshaad
06-07-05, 10:23
Take out his legs?
Take out his legs? good luck with that...
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 13:12
I don't think APU hybrids are overpowered in PvP personally (if they don't have a PSI3 on them, otherwise they are just APUs that can nib buff), because they've either got not enough PPU to make a differnce on their S/D, or not enough APU to really hurt.
Thats why my Slasher PE, when fully buffed and drugged up, can take equal damage to a tank (just with lower overall health), and deal out the same damage as a Spy (and thats when I don't use DB). I'd say that was high defense high damage personally, seeing as the only thing I have difficulty killing is a Blessed Hybrid (provided I am having a good day with aiming :p ). But what would I know, I only play a PE as my main character :rolleyes:
completely agree on both points.
:edit: jini - smurfis is the only melee tank i have fought and been unable to beat. there are people i havent beaten (that i have fought) but i think smurfis was the only melee tank.
you just have to learn to move differently and (as said) destroy his legs.
Original monk
06-07-05, 13:23
the onlytime i ever killed smurfis (and met in a combatsituation) was on he's melleetank, i got away with 30 hp so it was a close call tough, about 2 of he's pobwacks i think, fight wasnt fair cause he had another tank backing em up ... the other one was peanuts tough :)
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 13:30
melee tanks are fine (barring their shockers of course).
i got poison specced... dev's / melee are no worse than any other weapon.
i remember leveling joe as a rifle PE in gab mine and PAIN (i think) came to hunt me down. i dropped some sniper a few mins ago (tsu rifle > healing light in the right hands). so darkh comes along. by now theres a second guy leveling with me so it wasnt exactly fair...
he runs over and blasts me with a CS. i almost die... but we get him.
he comes back again and i'm stacked to the gills from a dev, and losing almost no health. that time i took satisfaction from turning around and dropping him ;)
think it was the third time he returned that he dropped us both (with ppu support mind).
this isnt a flame or anything, since then i have fought alongside darkh many many times. just to prove a point. poison ain't all that.
Mechanicus
06-07-05, 13:43
devils grace tears people apart
and melee shocker is reasonable, especially when you take into account the effect of crappy netcode on melee
Jesterthegreat
06-07-05, 13:46
devils grace tears people apart
and melee shocker is reasonable, especially when you take into account the effect of crappy netcode on melee
DG blows goats.
PoB is vastly better unless the target has no resists. at all.
Mechanicus
06-07-05, 13:54
i find DG works damn well against tanks and well specced Pes in terms of poison
Original monk
06-07-05, 13:58
i find DG works damn well against tanks and well specced Pes in terms of poison
youre not that DGtank from yesterdayevening around 9 at MB are ya ? :D
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