View Full Version : Plaza sector 5 and other mysteries
When I was first learning my way around Neocron City, and especially when I was learning my way around the Plaza, I kept constantly feeling lost, even after I'd memorized which exits went to where. Eventually, I figured out the source of my discomfort: the geometry is just plain wrong in places.
You've seen maps, from me and others, of the Outzone and of the Dome of York. There are subtle errors of scale and of shape that make it impossible to fit the pieces of the maps together and have them work. In each case there were places where some part of one map just didn't fit into the space allocated for it on the adjoining map.
Well, the Plaza is worse. See the attached map, which was made by fitting together the pieces of Plaza 1-4, Via Rosso 1-3, and Pepper Park 1-3, changing scale only when necessary to make the matching shapes fit. If you leave the west exit from Plaza sector 1 and travel in as straight a line west as possible, you end up in sector 3 before exiting the Plaza. If you exit the north end of the Plaza, admittedly facing west, you immediately end up in Plaza sector 3. This is the single biggest map continuity error I've found in all of Neocron. In fact, in Neocron City, it's the only really huge one.
There are some other little problems. If you look at the gap on the map between the two entrances to the Plaza hovercab station, you realize that the ramps violate space and time; the gap between them on the above-ground map is huge. Via Rosso sector 2 is subtly wrong; the southwestern part doesn't come down nearly far enough, and the sector isn't nearly wide enough to span the exits from sectors 1 and 3. And if you fit the pieces together, there really isn't room for ProtoPharm HQ and ProtoPharm Labs between VR2 and PP2.
But even by comparison to those, the gap between where you exit Plaza sector 1 and enter sector 3 is huge. What's more, when I look at the northwestern corner of that minimap, it shows the grayed-out outline of the next sector, and it doesn't fit the shape of Plaza 3. What's more, if you look at the similarly grayed out, unreachable north part of Plaza 2, it does sort of fit with the grayed out northwest part of Plaza 1. Which leads me to think that somewhere, on some designer's drawing table or on a napkin somewhere or in somebody's sketchpad, from when they were assigning the various maps to be designed, there was supposed to be a Plaza sector 5 between 1 and 3, and it never got done.
Anybody got a better explanation? :D
imho the funniest map discontinuity in nc is in doy, when you would leave cc at 2nd floor to get the the other storage 8. once you see its gate, dont move into but around, so youll recognize storage 8 with all its rooms is truly just a few yards in depth. seen from outside.
i really like eschers paintings.
well the map is a little borked for the origonal design isnt it, i veugly remember the ofline demmo looking different or is that just me
Dunno, the outzone ones are good where North moves around as you go between zones..
Scanner Darkly
25-06-05, 02:33
I heard plaza 5 was haunted by Soul Sucking Ghosts...
na man thats tsunami sindicates hq (sp?)
i remember on teh test server during NC1, i was talkin to Lupus, about a "secret" sector connected to plaza 1. It was over by where the fat lady sold drugs ontop of some ledge by teh edge of the sector(if anyone remembers where that was), and when u walked near it, it said entering plaza sector in the middle of the screen like it normally did. but thats about all i know
Who cares, theres rarely n e 1 to kill in the 4 plazas we have now :)
I think you're right Brad, but I doubt if it will get fixed... :(
Quite odd in NC1 where you went into the corner of P1 where the A&W superstore is now and you got the "Now Entering Neocron DNS" message, lol
imho the funniest map discontinuity in nc is in doy, when you would leave cc at 2nd floor to get the the other storage 8. once you see its gate, dont move into but around, so youll recognize storage 8 with all its rooms is truly just a few yards in depth. seen from outside.
i really like eschers paintings.Actually, don't even get me started on the way that the hunting areas in the Dome don't even vaguely fit the maps. The abandoned sidestreet maps are the size of a whole Dome sector, or very nearly, and they're packed in any old which way with not a care in the world for whether or not that would fit there, or whether it would have a clear view to the sky if it did. And in sector 7, we've got a "sewer" that drops 3 stories into the ground. The catch? It's set into an overhead catwalk.
But no, the mystery of Plaza sector 5 fascinates me, because unlike the upside down map (OZ3) or any of the other oddities that come from raw sloppiness, Plaza 5 seems to me to have obviously been done more or less on purpose, and they just hoped nobody would notice. (I also strongly suspect, from other clues, that there was once going to be an Outzone sector 10 with its own subway station.)
No, I wouldn't expect it to be fixed, not at this point; by the time beta 4 ended it was too late to add a whole new city sector. I just thought that other people might be amused, and that a few people who, like me, use half-conscious dead reckoning to find their way around might find it useful to know that it's not their imagination, somebody else noticed it to.
(I also strongly suspect, from other clues, that there was once going to be an Outzone sector 10 with its own subway station.)
watching those map irregularities is very entertaining. and its a fascinating thought that there are more sectors in the code base than we know of. hidden before our open eyes. great!
there are many many maps in nc we will never get to visit, places that exist in the minds of kk that they never let us see =]
One of the open secrets of Neocron City, going all the way back to day one of NC1 beta 4, is that sometimes you get lucky and get a subway hovercab with a broken door. If you're very unlucky, you get one with a door that's jammed shut, and you have to reset_position to get out of it. But if you're very lucky, you get one that's jammed open.
What's lucky about that is that you can then jump out of the subway car between stations. Most of us old timers have done it, and more than once. If you walk the whole length of the subway track, you eventually come up against two things.
First of all, there's the surface section, which everybody knows is there. If you jump up there from the track surface (which is pretty easy to do), you can explore quite a bit of it. If you do, it becomes completely obvious that this was designed as more than decoration to be driven by. For one thing, it goes back a lot farther in both directions than you can see from the track. For another, there's an obvious spot where the map editors have put improvised boards or boxes up (I forget which) to block the exit to another sector.
Secondly, there's a "branch line," a place where the track branches a short distance and then dead ends. I don't think they put it there for purely decorative reasons, because back when I had its location memorized (and you could look around while in a subway car, grrr) I've never managed to see it from inside the car.
So my suspicion is that once upon a time, the plan was for there to be at least one more Outzone sector, and I don't mean OZ7, and that branch subway line was going to lead there somehow.
james_finn
26-06-05, 11:08
I remember doing that in the old days lol. I would also like to add to this thread an area in neocron which is almost never used, and actually is a very atmospheric area. The sewers in the outzone are brilliant, a totally unused area and have some fairly good low/mid levels mobs within them. But some of the texturing in there is amazing, one bit that sticks to mind is the waterfall. I would suggest anyone to go and find it ;)
But yes there used to be a pretend zone line in plaza 1 which would say zoning into Neocron DNS, and personally I would like to see KK finish these areas and expand the outzone, because if this world was "evolving" then surely the hovercab system would still be being built!
Delphi
Ahh yes the surface zone, with its many bodies littering the place if i recall and i think i remeber a RN Station look a like is around there somewhere, i always thought that dead end area should be expanded or even have a smuggler camp down there ;)
Personally i'd love the subway system to be abandonded or atleast make it possible to walk along the tracks and dodge the hovercabs as then just fill the nooks and crannys of that place with some cool stuff :)
You all bring up some good memories. :)
I remember looking with a few people for the mysterious Big Green Ball (yes Green, not Yellow) somewhere out there... We looked in OZ Storage areas, and all kinds of obscure areas of NC where little people actually go. All because of a few tips from old members, who were likely just leading people on...
Still, things like this make the game exciting in certain respects. :D
there's an obvious spot where the map editors have put improvised boards or boxes up (I forget which) to block the exit to another sector.
Secondly, there's a "branch line," a place where the track branches a short distance and then dead ends. I don't think they put it there for purely decorative reasons, because back when I had its location memorized (and you could look around while in a subway car, grrr) I've never managed to see it from inside the car.
So my suspicion is that once upon a time, the plan was for there to be at least one more Outzone sector, and I don't mean OZ7, and that branch subway line was going to lead there somehow.
Now that could explain something.
Here's another piece of the jigsaw that never was: Most of us recognise the newbie quest locations as being copied and pasted from other zones. People have told me that the smugglers cave was the old offline demo map. Anyway, look in the Reactor Room (Plaza 1) and stand near the exit. You will see a message on screen saying, "ENTERING NEW DISTRICT: HOVERCAB SYSTEM". Could the reactor room map be the zone that was meant to be through the boxes that Brad mentioned? Or the zone down those dead end tunnels? The reactor room map also has a Tech Haven feel about it. Was there an intention once upon a time to extend the subway to Tech Haven? After all, TH is underground so a subway link would make perfect sense.
Could this also be an answer to the newbie problem of getting to TH? It has already been suggested that newbies have TH GR on their starter GR list.
Just an idea...
Would any devs care to share these little secrets with us? I'd love to know about areas that were planned but never came about. Dark Metal springs to mind. I know there are no plans to open it, and it was a throwback to development days, but we would love to hear the story. What was it meant to be?
I also strongly suspect, from other clues, that there was once going to be an Outzone sector 10 with its own subway station.
Oooh, now there's a thought... outzone 10.... would that be the place that would be accessed down that mystery tunnel in OZ5 behind the derelict church?
I think the Hovercab system was the old name of the subway zone in the demo which is now the smugglers cave although im not sure...
EDIT: Theres alot of holes in the outzone which once lead somewhere....now they dont, i wish OZ7 was fixed :( i mean while people are working on stability someone could fix the clipping problems or the mappers could rebuild the zone.
... The sewers in the outzone are brilliant, a totally unused area and have some fairly good low/mid levels mobs within them. But some of the texturing in there is amazing, one bit that sticks to mind is the waterfall. I would suggest anyone to go and find it ... The problem with the Mainsewer, the reason that nobody ever sees it, or the Storage areas, or 3/4 of the Outzone, is that once Reakktor put in the Abandoned Cellars ... well, at that point, of the 21 Neocron City surface area zones with their associated sub-surface hunting areas, all but one became completely superfluous. They had to spread out quest NPCs to some of those zones and make people go see them, because now there is almost exactly nothing that can be found anywhere in Neocron City that can't be found in Plaza sector 2.
The exceptions, the too-infrequent hurlers/butchees in 4 places and the launcher cyclopes in 2 of those, are sufficiently distant and infrequently spawning that there's no point in them being there, any more, either. The handful of us who like having a world to explore have a hard time recruiting anybody else to care, because you only need three zones in the whole game: Plaza sector 2, Wastelands sector J_01, and Canyon sector F_12.
Once upon a time before there were abandoned cellars and abandoned basements and abandoned rooms, there was a designed-in progression within the city, which was there to encourage higher level characters not to hang around where the lower level characters were leveling. Once you were done with the mobs in the level 2 sewers under the level 1 sewers, you had to leave the Plaza or Via Rosso and go to the "bad neighborhood" of Pepper Park to find the level 3 to 5 sewers, and once you outgrew those you either had to go to the "abandoned" neighborhood of the Industrial Area to find the level 6 and 7 sewers or head out into the Wastelands.
Also once upon a time, long before there was a Dome of York, the red vs blue split of the game was going to be carebear versus ganker. Yes, we had our own factions, but the faction politics were so interwoven and complicated so as to make it (deliberately?) impossible to organize any actual large-scale combat involving more than 2 factions. Does anybody here remember the early interviews explaining how soul light was originally going to work?
Originally, once you got to -32 soul light, you were going to be deeply screwed. As soon as you got to the point where the Copbots open fire on you on sight, you were going to lose your apartment and everything in the cabinets. At that point, the Primary Apartment in Navray would lead you to a Sleazy Outzone apartment in Outzone sector 1. Scattered throughout the 9 sectors of the Outzone there were vendors providing almost all of the same items that you could find in Neocron City. They were deliberately made less consistent in their stock and more hidden because they didn't want to reward people for having to live in the Outzone.
Further, once you got to -32 soul light, the only way you could get your soul light back to -31 where it would start recovering on its own was going to be by finding someone with even worse soul light than yours and killing them. So I'm pretty sure that when they were first designing the game, they assumed that all of the red-SL people would act like more-or-less one faction except when killing each other for fun (since they could no longer do missions, because there are no faction HQs or CityComs in the Outzone), raiding the inner city whenever they could get past the Copbots and killing carebears regardless of faction, because they no longer had much to lose. In the meantime, the carebears could more quickly recover from friendly fire incidents (SL between -1 and -31) by going out into the Outzone and killing gankers.
But since it was going to be possible to end up with really bad SL starting at a very low level, since originally there were cash and XP incentives to yank your LE chip out before you even left your apartment for the first time, that meant that every hunting area from the Plaza through Pepper Park had to have a matching surface map or sub-surface hunting area somewhere in the Outzone. And that's why the Outzone pretty much duplicates the inner city, only it's more confusing and only one sector has subway access.
What's lucky about that is that you can then jump out of the subway car between stations.
I jumped out at plaza end, and hid were the cabs U-Turn, wearing APU armour casting rez whenever someone came past, they were like "wtf?!?!?!?"
This was a while ago when i could wear APU and cast Rez
ah the good old days... :(
The one along the subway route I believe was supposed to be the "Rooftops" I'm assuming they originally wanted an area where people could fight in the same place as the Hovercabs went by.. kinda like a side stage type thing, tho with zone issues I'm sure that wouldn't exactly be possible to do :/
Dark Metal/Regants gets kicked up every now and then but usually gets shelved again.
Another idea that kicks up every now and then is to rework the sewer's and abandoned rooms, basically link them all so you can travel the city via the sewers and such. I.E. getting to the NCPD HQ in Via Rosso from the outzone/industrial sectors by going down into abandoned rooms and sewer sections. Something like this would probably make it easier for Anti's to raid NC, atleast until they got to where they were going.. Main thing here is how big the project would be to actually get it ingame, plus theres the issue of whether or not to have the newbie sewers linked into these ones or not.
Just like any idea that can be thought up in any game, something gets designed with an idea in mind, that doesn't turn out to be feasible, so never gets further then whats already been completed.
The one along the subway route I believe was supposed to be the "Rooftops" I'm assuming they originally wanted an area where people could fight in the same place as the Hovercabs went by.. kinda like a side stage type thing, tho with zone issues I'm sure that wouldn't exactly be possible to do ...Right, right, now I remember. It wasn't going to have its own subway station. Originally they were planning on having that sector be entered from some other Outzone sector. The subway cars passing underneath were going to be protected by invisible walls. But now that my memory is coming back, they never got the invisible walls to work right (and AOE would obviously have been a problem), so they just blocked it off.
Anyway, look in the Reactor Room (Plaza 1) and stand near the exit. You will see a message on screen saying, "ENTERING NEW DISTRICT: HOVERCAB SYSTEM". Could the reactor room map be the zone that was meant to be through the boxes that Brad mentioned? Or the zone down those dead end tunnels? The reactor room map also has a Tech Haven feel about it. Was there an intention once upon a time to extend the subway to Tech Haven? After all, TH is underground so a subway link would make perfect sense.I hadn't noticed it still said that, but the reason it says entering hovercab system is that the last stage of the original demo involved exiting from the service tunnels up onto the Plaza 1 subway station. They had the Plaza 2 ramp blocked off, and you had to run up the ramps to Plaza 1 (they had the Pussy Club where ConCenter now is) and help the Copbots fight their way past a Twilight Guardian raid in front of Yo's.
As for the Tech Haven subway line, I don't remember anything being said about one back then, but then it occurred to me that when NC1 beta4 first went live, there were "Easy" CityAdmin delivery missions that involved having to deliver packages to Tech Haven. Maybe there was supposed to be a beginner-friendly way to get there?
but then it occurred to me that when NC1 beta4 first went live, there were "Easy" CityAdmin delivery missions that involved having to deliver packages to Tech Haven. Maybe there was supposed to be a beginner-friendly way to get there?
Heh i remember this .. i made one of this missions @ 5/5 or smt like that ... was great fun until fall dmg killed me when i was 100 meters from TH ... i was so scared when i saw hoverbot, i started runing back and i fall hehehe :lol:
dark_reaper
27-06-05, 22:11
I think having an abandoned subway system that runs under Neocron will be cool. The main entrance will begin in the Ozone, and have a few holes in The HQ's and the city that leads to it.
Asurmen Spec Op
27-06-05, 22:16
I think having an abandoned subway system that runs under Neocron will be cool. The main entrance will begin in the Ozone, and have a few holes in The HQ's and the city that leads to it. how about they make it so you can walk in the subway and its down one of those side tunnels?(I fell out of a subway car once and explored the place)
It would be great if they connected all of those underground zones and even added new ones, really fleshed out the "sewers". What I mean is, you can start from the various "secret" entrances and outzone entraces. From those you can go underground into the various storage areas, and main sewer network. All these are interconnected as a massive maze, but more or less leading under Neocron. The only sewers that likely should not be connected to this is the newbie sewers, leave that off the main system, but possibly have all of those interconnected.
I remember back before, was in 1998 or 1999? Anyways, I kept imagining Neocron almost like how it is, but with massive networks of sewers with aggressors all over, people actually setting up bases down there or sorts. ;) Not only would this introduce more ways to infiltrate Neocron, but it would also increase exposure to these zones, especially if monsters and points of interest were added.
i think they should add a big mob at the end of the main sewer sectors for noobs, sort of like what the apparition used to be in the early days, no person was brave or foolish enough to go in
open final door, big fat aggressor owns noobs in the face
wtf?!?!
i think they should add a big mob at the end of the main sewer sectors for noobs, sort of like what the apparition used to be in the early days, no person was brave or foolish enough to go in
open final door, big fat aggressor owns noobs in the face
wtf?!?!
This reminds me back when the HEW Burner (Raygun cannon) was pretty much top of the line for heavy weapons, only one of them. Back when people had all kinds of guns, not just heavy or pistols or rifles, but a good mix of many, because there weren't so many. I remember back then, in the pp sewers there was a particular sewer that had many poisonous spiders, the queen was in such a back room, she spawned the next in line, they spawned the next in line and so on until they pretty much filled the sewer. A nice mix of other monsters in the sewers too.
It was a lot of fun getting your m8s together and driving the spiders back, we weren't too high of a level, and guns weren't as powerful back then, but man it made for some good fun.
This reminds me back when the HEW Burner (Raygun cannon) was pretty much top of the line for heavy weapons, only one of them. Back when people had all kinds of guns, not just heavy or pistols or rifles, but a good mix of many, because there weren't so many. I remember back then, in the pp sewers there was a particular sewer that had many poisonous spiders, the queen was in such a back room, she spawned the next in line, they spawned the next in line and so on until they pretty much filled the sewer. A nice mix of other monsters in the sewers too.
It was a lot of fun getting your m8s together and driving the spiders back, we weren't too high of a level, and guns weren't as powerful back then, but man it made for some good fun.
was this when spider coccoons were still in game?
the spawns in the sewers can get a little crazy. I want to know if anyone else is still here from when I was about level /30 and doom harbingers spawned in storage 8. me and some other noobs where there just leveling away and suddenly a mutant with a rocket launcher spawned. we didnt recognise this mob and just thought it was one that didnt spawn often. needless to say, we were quickly pwned. we all ganged together to take him down, and we did it! Hazzah!
Opened the next big door.... and 2 more were stood there.
We Ran
We ran our asses off.
One of my favourite experiences in game.
i remember that in b4 all rotten boxes surronding grave entrance were lookin like rotten boxes but were acting like outpost hack consoles .... there was 12-14 boxes .. i go there hack all then relog then hack ... dunno if they were linked with any OP but for me being newbie it was great INT lvl place :wtf:
I want to know if anyone else is still here from when I was about level /30 and doom harbingers spawned in storage 8. me and some other noobs where there just leveling away and suddenly a mutant with a rocket launcher spawned. we didnt recognise this mob and just thought it was one that didnt spawn often. needless to say, we were quickly pwned. we all ganged together to take him down, and we did it! Hazzah!Opened the next big door.... and 2 more were stood there.We Ran. We ran our asses off. One of my favourite experiences in game.
sure, and you could meet those guys in OZ 5 as well.
there was even a warbot titan at the end of one of the storage areas once upon a time, what fun.
Bring back plasma Warbots for the Outzone @_@
...or Regant Mutants.
It's about time we saw those things again.
Be more of a use for Regant's Legacy too.
...or Regant Mutants.
Those with plasmas and laserblades ??
Those with plasmas and laserblades ??
Yup, those little darlings ;)
When your team has gotten a little too powerful for launcher cyclops at MB (and who really enjoys running around the bunker chasing after the single clops spawn before the other 10 people gank it before you?) then heading off to Regant's Legacy would be a blast. Super xp for all (the regant commander is 70/70) and when they spawned in the zones around regant back in NC1, there were no shortage of them either. God, imagine low to mid level vehicle combatants all parked on the road - excellent xp.
What would make the trip worthwhile would be facilities like a gogo nearby and an NPC who gives you a mission to kill 30 regant soldiers or something for loadsa cash.
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