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View Full Version : In-Game Voter Apathy is Entirely Reasonable



BradSTL
15-06-05, 11:13
We had a Dome Alliance Council meeting on Sunday afternoon. Two anti-city Job Dealers chaired the meeting, and they had one item on the agenda: why don't more people care about the Alliance Councils? Why don't more people vote? What did we, as elected reps, think we could do about that?

We spent about two hours brainstorming. We came up with a ton of good ideas. I wish I could release the transcript of that meeting. I don't think that a single idea we came up with was anything that any player in this game would think was unfair to either side, or a bad idea, or something that would negatively affect the game. I think that several of those ideas would set the whole server drooling.

We got word back yesterday: every single suggestion we made was shot down. Every. Single. One.

Let me sum up what we told them, and what I just reminded them via in-game email. What we said was that the Alliance Councils, the elected faction representatives, don't matter to most runners because there isn't any way in which we matter, period. The events team says that it's our responsibility as elected faction reps to come up with our own creative ways to make our elected positions matter. But there is absolutely nothing that you can do as an elected council representative that you can't do as a 0/2 runner with an LE chip. Not one single thing.

The Alliance Council is a place for members of the factions to talk to each other. We have a plethora of those already. We talk to each other on the Alliance chat channel all day long. The Alliance Council is a place to create and recruit for role-playing events. Which is the absolute last thing we need, because anybody with an account on this forum can create and recruit for role-playing events. Other than that, what do we do? We talk for an hour or two a month, and then nothing happens.

What I said was that if you want people to care who's on the Alliance Council for their side, if you want to see actual competition for the posts, if you want to see Alliance Council reps actually matter to the runners, then the position has to come with something, anything, even one thing that players in the game actually want or care about. We do get a faction budget. I can't speak for the other factions, but mine comes to 2500 credits per month. Big whoop di do. You can't get your implants poked back in at Tech Haven for that much.

We asked for the Alliance Council to be a channel for communication down from the "management" NPCs. If we were the first ones to hear even hints about planned changes to the game world or upcoming events, even if it was only by a day or two so we could float rumors, then we'd be seen as having some trivial importance. The answer we got back was, "Good idea! We're going to have more communication from the top-level NPCs on the NeMa and VotR web pages where everybody can read it at once." Can you hear my teeth grinding all the way over where you're sitting? That's the mathematical opposite of what we asked for.

We asked for the Alliance Council to be a channel for communication from the runners to the "management" NPCs. That is to say, we wanted to be able to file in-character reports about what we'd seen in game, and to ask questions about what we'd seen in game, and get email answers back, or get the EGM staff person who chairs the next monthly council meeting to give us in-character answers from them. They didn't even bother to reply to that suggestion. It vanished into thin air, as if the whole time we spent talking about it went to the same limbo as the famous missing 18-1/2 minutes.

We asked if we on the Alliance Council could be given SOME authority to recommend even ONE spawn event per month. We asked that even once per month, we on the Alliance Council could vote to get even a tiny handful of NPCs spawned -- the number I floated was 6. And subject to individual veto from the events team, the spawn event we asked for would happen. Now, I don't think that was too much to ask. Both sides would get this authority. It would only happen once a month. How many times a month do random EGMs spawn hundreds of mobs at a time for no reason other than that they're bored? At least a couple of times a month those spawn events are in deep city sectors like DOY03 or PL2. So if once a month we chose to lead player characters in a raid, well, the example we voted for this time was a blockade of the Tech Haven south entrance in E_07, and asked our superiors to send (spawn) in this example six weeny little Fallen Angels security bots, would that be the end of the world? No, not least of which because they could just as easily respond by, say, asking six Stormbots to accompany them on a raid into DOY sector 01. It would be fun for everybody. It would introduce a note of unpredictability. And it would be a tiny, trivial amount of power in Dome Alliance Council and Neocron Alliance Council hands.

This idea also got shot down. Not just our specific target for a raid, but the whole idea -- I checked.

We were systematically denied any money, any equipment, any NPC manpower, any advanced information, any roleplaying interaction with NPCs, any of even the tiniest things that a player might care about.

And then they wonder why people don't vote? I certainly don't need it explained to me.

As the elected Tsunami representative for the Terra server, I have spent the last four months all over the GMs like ugly on an ape. I have lobbied hard for my faction's interests. I have carefully planned a roleplaying opportunity that requires only trivial assistance from the event team, and I have tried hard to make myself a useful resource for every Tsunami runner and a go-to guy for every other faction who has Tsunami issues. And in that time, I got two absolutely tiny concessions from the GMs. And those tiny concessions got me figuratively hoisted up on shoulders and figuratively paraded on a victory lap of the Dome, because even mattering that much was more than anybody else had ever achieved.

And I doubt that more than 20 people noticed. Oh, if this Sunday at noon Eastern Time's Council-only secret-until-then roleplaying event comes off, and if the EGMs do their part in giving the other side a chance to be heroes, then maybe more people will notice. And I used every tiny scrap of favor I was entitled to, and pushed the envelope of that to its very limits, to pull that much off. I have done everything I can to make my DAC membership matter to the runners. But no more than I have been able to achieve, I don't blame anybody who doesn't care, who isn't impressed, and who sees no reason to pay any attention to their Alliance Council representative, not even to vote for it, let alone run for it.

numb
15-06-05, 11:49
Were you told why this would not be possible?

5150
15-06-05, 11:59
I applaude your efforts Brad, but KK dont [appear to] give a rats ass about anything other than PvP in NC

Whether this is because that seems to be the only thing the majority of the playerbase are interested in, or the the fact that it is the only thing KK are interested in (in other words they realise that NCs rep is never going to draw anything other than PvP players who want an uneven playing field) is up to debate.

numb
15-06-05, 12:04
I applaude your efforts Brad, but KK dont [appear to] give a rats ass about anything other than PvP in NC

Whether this is because that seems to be the only thing the majority of the playerbase are interested in, or the the fact that it is the only thing KK are interested in (in other words they realise that NCs rep is never going to draw anything other than PvP players who want an uneven playing field) is up to debate.

I think this is actually more to do with not having enough time, or not willing to put the work in to make this work rather than KK only caring about PvP. I think that's the wrong attitude to have considering how much PvP has been nerfed since NC began!

PvP and roleplay can work together. Most of the large scale events I played in the early days of saturn involved pvp, killing spawned mobs/guards and roleplay (cant avoid the roleplay part really, considering they were storyline type events!).

MuggleMind
15-06-05, 12:05
Having seen the vote button I had been wondering what use the faction council members served. From what you have posted, it looks like they serve very little purpose!

Don't get me wrong. I have seen your work on the forums, and it is obvious you put a lot of effort in. I suspect that, were I in your faction, I would hear of you even more. Maybe if I listened to the Alliance chat channel I'd hear more too.

Like you said, I think that with a few minor changes, being a council member could be a very desirable thing. The cash incentive? 2.5k? Absolutely pointless. However, it could be argued that more might unbalance the game.

Maybe a councillor could be given cash to spend specifically on events? For example, you receive 100k a month maybe, and can purchase the "services" of different mobs. A grim chaser might cost you 20k to hire, while a launcher cyclops only 5k. You could then (with EGM approval, naturally), lead the defence of a faction (clan?) base or your HQ maybe.

Advanced game knowledge would be another great idea. FOr example, maybe the pro-city council members could be taken on a tour of the zoo? Or Alliance members could see the current state of work with Club Veronique (and of course, ummm... explore a few of the girls? :P). Neither would exactly influence the game itself, but would be talking points maybe.

And maybe a few "ingame" missions could be arranged for players to complete, on behalf of their council leaders? Hackers, as an example, might ned to travel into the enemy's net, and retrieve a transcript from an opposing council meeting (hn hackers have no missions of their own, so this would be a good idea anyway!).

But without any of these benefits, I'll stick to being a "normal" player, and ignoring the council options - they don't seem to add anything to the game, unfortunately.

Sherman - tank (obviously!), City Mercs

CMaster
15-06-05, 12:07
I gathered wehn Henry Dorsett was going around selecting the MoC in the City, that his intention was to use them as the link between runners and the EGM team, bypassing the elected faction reps (you need only look at who most of these are to see why). So, thats probably part of it. By the way, who shot your ideas down? EGM team? Carbonite?

Dribble Joy
15-06-05, 12:42
heh...

:rolleyes:

Bugs Gunny
15-06-05, 12:55
Roleplay and politics are all dead on terra.
Hell, even the storyline is dead.

Original monk
15-06-05, 13:13
(you need only look at who most of these are to see why)

hehe thats what i wanted to say :)

Selendor
15-06-05, 14:53
A sad story indeed. Its my long held opinion that the limitations on the game engine and rule set prevent event gms / player run councils from mattering in the slightest to runners. As I've said before, I pleaded during the run up to Neocron 2's launch that they incorporate more powerful event tools (live safezone switches, temporary outposts, faction kicking to anarchy breed) but none of it has happened, and will ever happen.

You are shouting against a brick wall Brad, as we can see from the current sticky's at the top of this forum, KK are interested in pvp at the moment, although frankly, any kind of change to anything in the game world is good news at the moment, as progress has been so slow in the last 18 months.

Digital-Talios
15-06-05, 15:53
Roleplay and politics are all dead on terra.
Hell, even the storyline is dead.

Roleplay and politics are what keep me playing Neocron. Its a wonder then that I am looking at other potential games to involve myself with.





It seams to me that a great barrier exists between the players and the devleopers in the world of Neocron. It feels like the players shout what they want but it falls on deff ears :(

BradSTL
15-06-05, 19:59
It feels like the players shout what they want but it falls on deff earsAnd you know, I'm sort of used to that. And in many cases, I've learned from the fiasco that was SWG, giving the players what they ask for can wreck a game even faster than ignoring them.

But what really, truly ticks me off about the time I wasted in that meeting is two things. First of all, we didn't pick the topic, they did. And secondly, given that they shot down or ignored literally every single thing we said in that meeting, what exactly were they hoping we would say? What, exactly, was the point?

Numb, you asked who made the decision to shut down everything we asked for? I wouldn't mind knowing that myself. I got my email notification from one of the Job Dealers who chaired the meeting; I'm sorry, but I forget her character name. Both of the EGM reps who were in the meeting with us were very excited about our suggestions. There were one or two that they weren't sure would fly, but overall they were excited by them. Heck, the single most outrageous suggestion, briefly disabling the TH genreps (which is outrageous because I'm assuming it would take a major coding change, like on-the-fly safezone changes), was made by one of the EGM team. We weren't told who said no to all of these suggestions, or what their reasoning was. We were just told no.

So, why exactly were we asked, and who expected to achieve what by having us discuss it for two hours? I really wish I knew.

msdong
15-06-05, 21:08
official content and storyline like wars and raids was never a major part of the international servers.
the german forum had the discussion about voting and the powerless Council a few weeks ago, there where some fine ideas but well. that was only wishfull thinkin'

€: lets see what that advanced mission system from the planfile will bring.

Brammers
15-06-05, 22:00
We got word back yesterday: every single suggestion we made was shot down. Every. Single. One.

:wtf: You are kidding me? (And yes I was there as well at this meeting with Brad)

Edit: Brad send me a PM and tell me whats going on.

Brammers
15-06-05, 23:22
Ok Brad, I've spoke to Colette and read the emails she's sent as well. I'm sorry but I don't see what you are getting at. Maybe the issue of the council is up for debate, but not all the ideas put foward was shot down in flames.

Here's the screenshots for all to read.

BradSTL
15-06-05, 23:44
Ah. I hadn't gotten the second email you displayed yet. After the first one, I sent her an email asking her if they had turned down our target for the first NPC-supported raid, or the whole idea? The answer I got back was, "Yes and yes," which I read as meaning that they had shot down both ideas.

And that first one still looks to me like our request to be part of the conduit for information from NPCs to players was responded to by saying that they were only going to be putting more information on the web pages; I'm glad to see from the second email that either I was wrong or they changed their minds.

ZoVoS
16-06-05, 04:29
NC died when nc 1 became nc2 changing from the nice complex web of fraction relationships to the RED V BLUE we have now, unfortunatly this is a mmo, it needs RP to fule the PVP. otherwise ppl would just get a game like battlefront or dare i say it planetshift,

brad as always all of your idea's are both valid and wanted but ur floggin a dead horse, kk aint role play, kk are pvp =]

that said i have spamed the forms with assisted raids =] i hope we get them, seeing the doy'ies storming the gates of nc at the end of nc with the storm bots going medieval was class =]