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BradSTL
07-06-05, 19:30
See, here's the funny thing: of all the MMPORGs I've heard of or played, only Reakktor doesn't get this. For example, in Matrix Online, virtually every red-pill has met Niobe, whom they all know from the movies. In the first month or so, a fair number of people met or at least saw Morpheus; when they stopped seeing him, there turned out to be an in-game reason for it, and now everybody is looking for him or at least for his body ... not just because he's a celebrity, not just because some EGM told them to, not just because they got a mission from a mission terminal, but because he's someone they know who was nice to them.

In Anarchy Online, the rebel Council of Truth was dominated by two large NPC-only clans, the Sentinels and the Knights; while your average player clan might have 20 to 100 people in it, those two clans supposedly had thousands, and had been there for many years more, and that's why they sat at the top of the Council of Truth and we didn't. But if you got at all involved in clan politics, within a month or two you were guaranteed to meet at least one of the NPC leaders of those two clans in a political or social setting.

Did you hear about Lord Vader's personal appearance a month or so ago in Star Wars: Galaxies? A group of role-players did an exceptional job of creating a stormtrooper batallion on Tatooine, and ran it with military discipline. This came to the event game masters' attention, so when they'd proven they could keep it up for a while, Sony sent an EGM as Darth Vader to review the troops and give them a morale-boosting speech. It literally made the news, not just in game but in the mainstream press. And even though for the players all there was for them to do was stand there in formation and listen while an EGM rattled off a prepared speech, everybody involved described it as the greatest roleplaying day they'd had in SWG. Sony picked up on this. Have you seen the TV commercials that they just rolled out for SWG? A full half of what the customers shown raving about the game were boasting that you had a chance to actually meet and interact with Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Darth Vader, and so on.

Now, here's my main point, the point that Reakktor's events team just doesn't seem to get. When we created our characters in this game, we didn't sign up with a side, we signed up with a faction. Each of those factions has two NPCs with their own fascinating backstory and distinct personality. Those NPC personalities are an important part of the personality, the feel, of each of the 12 factions. But in all the time since Neocron 1 hit beta, which is what, three years ago now?, one of them has been seen in person by players, once and then never again. (Reza showed up in person once in Plaza One to make a speech before the public execution of some political criminals. Remarkably, I was there.) That's one more appearance than any of the other 23 faction leaders and co-leaders have made.

Yes, there are the 12 job dealers. I spend a hell of a lot of time online, and am the elected representative for my faction, and I haven't seen mine. Ironically, the only one I have seen was for a former-enemy faction. I'm told by GMs that they mostly stopped logging in the job dealers because 3/4 of the players who meet a job dealer ignore them or tell them to go to hell. Some of that is because people don't perceive that taking a job dealer's job will be either fun, or rewarding; I heard a rumor that most of what they're handing out are delivery missions for minor rewards.

But I wonder if the real reason that people are ignoring them is that the job dealers are "nobodies," minor bureaucratic functionaries like the NPC clerk/typists in faction HQ, and beneath us. If a job dealer showed up with a name and rank that made it clear that you will take this brief job, or I can have you snuffed like a candle, or at the very least screw up your faction sympathies? But if you do take the job, you'll be able to brag afterwards that you did a job for the CEO or for a personal friend of the CEO?

Why is this important?

For 50 or more years now, businesses have known that you don't have to pay your people as much, or give them as many perqs or rewards, if you at least once in a while walk up to someone who's done a good job and say, "Good job." People live for this kind of thing. There are some clan leaders who have beat their brains out for their factions. Some of them have actually produced incredible successes for their factions. Yeah, they got paid, a little bit. Yeah, they got to enjoy the benefits of the terrain they captured and held. But what did they get from their bosses? Not even so much as an email. And would that be so much to ask?

Back when, to pick a Terra example because that's what I know best, Freedom Force controlled 41 of the 44 outposts, how long would it have taken for some EGM to log on as Hagen Yager and write an in-game email saying, "Nice job"? If the EGMs were (as I happen to know) concerned that they were doing too nice a job, how hard would it have been to have emailed one small paragraph saying something like, "Don't forget, this is an alliance. We need the other factions on our side, too, so don't squeeze them out altogether. Let them have an outpost or two of their own to defend, if they can." I do know that it would have taken less time and effort than what they did try to do about it, which I won't even bring up because it would piss off so many people it would sidetrack the conversation.

There is an awful lot going wrong with this game that could be fixed, or nipped in the bud, if the art department would quickly knock out 24 recognizable faces for the faction leader and assistant leader NPCs, and if one of the EGMs (or better, someone in charge of actual story development like Snowcrash) spent 30 minutes to take one server a day, picking one of those 24 NPCs and showing up in someone's clan HQ, or apartment, or faction HQ, or outpost underground and delivering a message. They could: Provide teasers for upcoming content without having to script an NPC to stand there and do it for them. Warn people who're wrecking things for the whole faction by being jerks that they do have bosses who are watching them. Encourage players to do things they haven't tried yet. Create a "buzz" of rumors that makes it look as if things are actually happening. Give players something to strive for, a hope that if they do something really successful or really cool they'll actually get to meet and be praised by a VIP.Why doesn't this happen?

Well, one reason is that the art department still isn't prepared for it. All these years, and we still don't have face files in gfx.pak or the gfx directory for the major NPCs in the game world. Some time ago, when an EGM emailed me asking for event suggestions and I made these same points, I was told that the EGMs don't have authority to ask the art department for anything like that. Which is all well and good ... but why hasn't someone who does have that authority figured out that they need it?

The other reason shows up in the poll numbers from a poll I ran yesterday (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=125888). While at least twice as many people actually want feedback from their faction's management, or want to interact with their faction's management, at least 1/4 of the people who responded would do something completely stupid and out of character like shoot at the EGM. This is why EGMs don't show up in public very often, and when they do they have to have their LE chips in; otherwise jerks will come along and try to ruin everybody else's fun just because that's how they get their kicks.

What they need to do about this is to give the EGMs a macro that does three things. First, it should apply the same soul-light and faction sympathy penalties as if they'd actually killed the EGM's NPC. Secondly, it should temporarily ban the character for one hour. Thirdly, it should insta-kill them.

Sure, some of them will whine. "Wah! Wah! Wah! I'm paying for this game, I'm entitled to do whatever I want!" Yeah, but one of the rules of the game is that your actions have consequences. Saying you should be able to shoot at Hagen Yager or Max Trond or one of the Jordan brothers and have the same consequences as if you shot at a shopkeeper or or a runner is like saying you ought to be able to walk naked through Chaos Cave without being attacked by the Creepers, "because I'm paying for the game and that's what I want to do!"

Tratos
07-06-05, 19:58
5 Stars, a round of applause and a rather large Hell Yes, is what this thread gets from me.

The ideas and opinions in this thread if applied would make the game great for those who enjoy the roleplaying side of it one thing more however is that if more and more roleplay type things happened in this game it could effect the 'non roleplayers' and actualy get them into the spirit of things.

I hope we get a response on this from both Chenoa and Arbiter, id like to see their opinions on these suggestions and see if anything can be done.

aKe`cj
07-06-05, 20:31
I disagree partly. In my opinion it isnt too bad to have all the #1 VIPs hidden in the shadows - leaves a lot more room for speculation, rumors - stories ...

You say there aint any VIPs arround - why is that?
Starting with elected Council-Chairpersons ..going all the way up to the very TOP:

Ronald Rodriguez - #2 in the Dome... and some ppl say his influence is about to outscore Yagers power

Henry Dorsett & Jack Red - #2 in Neocron, appointed by Reza himself .. and opposed to Reza we even have prove they exist

JobDealers - again .. their orders come from the top of the cities administrations.....


In my opinion its not VIPs the game is lacking ... the problem is those ppl I mentioned are greeted with disrespect or plasma. Same thing would happen with Reza or Yager or heck else showing up (1st everyone goes to sex them, then rant + shoot them). As long, as the VIPs dont have the possibility to smack ppl big time for disrespecting the ones in power (which is not likely to happen ... imagine the flames/rants of the 1337 kids who claim its unfair as it wasnt a 1on1 duel - GM cheat0rz roflfll!) - the names will not matter. I prefer to have the #2's dissed ...rather than wasteing the important #1 VIPs in the same manner.

:(

CMaster
07-06-05, 20:32
I've seen Job Dealers (well, John Redcloud, with job dealer tag on and Susan Swift on the day she resigned as City governer) around. They havent ever given me a job. But what they HAVE given a clanmate a job (gather some useless junk from pretty awkaward locations and get paid for it.) They also approached a clan member and offered the ENITRE clan a job, which I am not entitled to talk about (IC because it is somewhat scandalous, OOC because I suspect other clans have/will be given same job) that was good fun and challeging, especially as I was the only PPU on again...

However, the point made by Brad stands. While its all very nice sitting down and having a chat (and a bowl of delicous crab soup) with Hery Dorsett, the reality is he is little more than a mouthpiece for Reeza and co. It would be nice to actually here something "direct from Lioon Reeza" well, directly from the man. Prove that he is alive and there. Otherwise well, I really do think that many runners are on the point of revolution against their incompetent leaders - why arent the ally killers dealt with? Wee may only be runners, but we are the muscle of the cities and factions - do they really want to be without us, or have us against them?
Also, as a NEXT loyalist, (I know, all my chars are TT but thats tied to the clan. its also the reason I have not applied for Tangent MoC - it simply isnt MY faction. I'm NExT to the core, even if I end up in the pay of another faction for the moment) I'd love to know what direction Mr Diggers (and indeed Mason) feel we should be pushing. Should we be seeking better relations with the Fallen Angels? Is a more neutral position in the world desirable, or do we need to get closer to City Admin so as to convince them to reiniate the space program? Should we stay out of the Op War scene becuase of the political entaglements which more trouble us than assits us? Or does NEXT right now really need the services of a Lab/Factory/Mine?

[edit]@Ake - as I already described, I wouldnt expect to see the VIPs without bodyguards. Make the GM behind be able to direct them - runners give them hastle, the guards waste them.

aKe`cj
07-06-05, 20:42
[edit]@Ake - as I already described, I wouldnt expect to see the VIPs without bodyguards. Make the GM behind be able to direct them - runners give them hastle, the guards waste them.

My statement remains unchanged.

a) what you propose wont happen ...ever
b) if it was - RR, JR, HD would have the same status as reza (imagine Reza died and one of them ... preferably RR became NCs new leader - now he does the same thing but suddenly its all cool ?!?)


/edit: it's CJ btw :p

BradSTL
07-06-05, 21:16
Here's what Chenoa just said over on my earlier, less productive, angrier rant thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=125840):

Thing is, NC2 really is a lot more based on cities than factions.
We agree that there is room to involve the individual factions a little more though - in fact I've been dealing with this very issue for 2 weeks now (WIP).
I'll see if I can get up a list of all Ceres-Project Members (RP-chars) for you, including their faction-alignment. Hopefully this will make contact ingame easier - especially concerning faction news. Your primary (rp-)contacts are the reporters, followed by the JobDealers and finally the DAL or Govenors (keep in mind, they are more focussed on city proceedings, rather than individual factions).
There is also the option of electing a good faction council - make sure yours is active!
The faction councils and the Ceres-team are to work closely together (I am aware this does not look too good for the DOY-side atm - we are lacking active & comitted faction councils).
As you can see, the current system differs quite a lot from the old FC approach (NC1) - still there are numerous people to talk to. In case of further questions, feel free to ask. The "faction councils" part of that reply enrages me, because I am the Tsunami representative to the Dome Alliance Council. If you ask any Tsunami on the Terra server, they'll tell you that I work damned hard at being the Tsunami representative. And I flatly refuse to take any blame for the lack of a Tsunami storyline, because just as with 9 of the other 11 factions, Reakktor and the EGMs will not give me anything to work with.

Ronald Rodriguez stopped inviting me to Dome Alliance Council meetings two months ago. I only just found out the other day that there even was a meeting in April or May. I'm told that because he won't go to the trouble of issuing a simple email in advance announcing date, time, and place, no more than two people have shown up to the last two meetings, but dammit, that is not we members of the DAC's fault! We're doing our job, Reakktor and it's appointees are the ones falling down on the job.

Secondly, Ronald Rodriguez stopped showing up in game at all at least two weeks ago, and hasn't replied to my emails in at least that long. I damned well can't take my orders from him, or relay our situation to him, if he never shows up, listens, or talks, or writes.

But thirdly, and this is the single biggest problem I have as the Tsunami rep to the DAC, nobody in Tsunami management will give me the slightest clue what the Syndicate's position is on anything that has happened since the Burning of Pepper Park. Are we supposed to be primarily gun-runners now? Or propagandists? Or spies? Or still vice lords? Is the Red Pepper Entertainment Group a bunch of Reza cronies who stole our property, or are they a front for us? Are my bosses aware that all the Inquisitors in the world, even the pro-city ones, are signing up with a Crahn-protected cult called the Temple of Cleaning Flame that tortures prostitutes (including our employees) to death to get information on their customers? Do they want us runners to do anything about this? Are my bosses aware that the biggest problem I have gathering and keeping recruits is that they give our faction almost nothing in incentives compared to what the other factions get? Is there anything coming down the pike that I can promise them, to ask them to wait patiently for, or is it always going to be like this? If I manage to recruit a bunch of PvPers to take and hold Pepper Park sector 3 for any length of time, will we receive even a single "good work" email from management, let alone any actual reward, or are we just wasting our time?

As the Tsunami rep, I can't do my job without some kind of input from Tsunami management, without any evidence that my reports are being listened to, without any evidence that any of our efforts are being noticed. That's not a failing on my part. That's a failing on Reakktor's part. And it's not a Tsunami-specific complaint, for all the we probably among the four worst-off factions: I'll bet the elected faction representatives for CM, DRE, and PP could sing in perfect harmony with me on this.

If only two factions, CityAdmin and Twilight Guardian, are ever going to get any new storyline, and only their senior NPCs are ever going to be seen in public, can we get a line added to the patch notes for patch 135?

- Removed the bug that let players chose factions other than CA and TG. All other characters were moved to their new factions.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be this way. Don't you have anybody on staff or among the EGMs who's ever run a tabletop roleplaying game? Juggling the responses of a dozen or twenty high-level NPCs to the events of the storyline is something every tabletop game master does. The skill set exists, and if you don't have it, I'll bet any amount of money you care to name that we can find you ten or twenty qualified volunteers with GMing experience to help you script the responses of those major NPCs. I'll bet the art department really enjoyed creating Mr. Jones; would it really strain them that much to create another 20 or 30 faces?

Hell-demon
07-06-05, 21:27
If KK cant implement this then you can easily have regular joes who are good roleplayers just create a char with a VIP's name :)

I myself have taken the name Crahn :p

He has indeed returned....

Tidus_Origin
07-06-05, 21:31
( >>> ***** <<<)

In the (just over) 2 years I've been playing NC, I have only seen one EGM-controlled NPC, and that was a glimpse Ronald Rodrieguez (yes, I can't spell his name...meh, close enough :lol: ) giving a speech in Plaza 1 (back in NC1). Since that, I haven't seen hide nor hair of anyone from the storyline with some degree of authority (Faction CEOs, Reza, etc).

IMO, if KK had the time (and the chance) to do this, then they should.


...for example, in Matrix Online, virtually every red-pill has met Niobe, whom they all know from the movies. In the first month or so, a fair number of people met or at least saw Morpheus; when they stopped seeing him, there turned out to be an in-game reason for it, and now everybody is looking for him or at least for his body ... not just because he's a celebrity, not just because some EGM told them to, not just because they got a mission from a mission terminal, but because he's someone they know who was nice to them.

Its amazing the amount of difference a well-known face can make. It was quite cool to see characters from the Matrix movies making an appearance. :D The movies were the primary reason why 90% of the MxO community bought the game in the first place, just as the Warcraft RTS trilogy (obviously not including expansions in that count) was the primary reason for ppl buying WoW.

Its the community that wants this to happen, and yet it's (a small group of) the community's fault it doesn't.

There's a whole truckload of reasons why this will/will not happen....


...at least 1/4 of the people who responded would do something completely stupid and out of character like shoot at the EGM. This is why EGMs don't show up in public very often, and when they do they have to have their LE chips in; otherwise jerks will come along and try to ruin everybody else's fun just because that's how they get their kicks.

...and that's just one of them.

Tratos
07-06-05, 21:35
Some more good points Brad, i for one would love to take up a roll in being apart of a faction even if it was one ive never played or dont see as being a great faction, it would certianly get me into neocron and the history again but now im further from being able to apply as im only 17 (well next month) and the age limit is another 3 years higher now even for roleplaying volunteers it would seem :(

A bit OT: What is the art dep up to atm?

Infinite
07-06-05, 21:48
*shrugs* meeting VIPs won't enhance my/the games PVP :) (which rules)

I guess you have spotted the differnce between NC and some carebear game rather than a problem TBH.

BradSTL
07-06-05, 21:54
If KK cant implement this then you can easily have regular joes who are good roleplayers just create a char with a VIP's name :)

I myself have taken the name Crahn :p

He has indeed returned....
I took a short class in improv theater once, and I was told that the first law of improv theater is that you never contradict your partners on stage. So if my character runs into a character named Crahn, I'm not going to say, "You're not Crahn!" Or I might. But my point is that I will react to your character the same way the real me would respond to someone who claimed to be the resurrected Jesus Christ, or for that matter to someone who claimed to be Thomas Jefferson or the Comte d' Saint-Germaine. I'll probably humor you to your face and make fun of you behind your back, because that's probably what my characters would really do in such a case.

Now, if you succeed in getting the rest of the people playing Crahn Sect to go along, and they elect you the Brotherhood of Crahn representative to the DAC, then my character will have to do some squirming in his seat, eh? Because he's obviously not going to believe it himself, but he'll find himself in a world where a dangerously large number of people do believe it. Real roleplaying could even break out.

That being said, I don't have the stones to free up a character slot and re-level a PPU named Reginald Axom or a female infiltrator PE named Veronique Duchamps. I don't pretend to know enough about what's going on behind the scenes to pull it off; how can I really be the Syndicate's CEO and then be surprised by some change in a patch? Nor could I convincingly defend myself or enforce my orders the way that Reakktor could. And besides, I can't shake the suspicion that if I tried, Reakktor would squish me like a bug.

BradSTL
07-06-05, 21:56
*shrugs* meeting VIPs won't enhance my/the games PVP :) (which rules)

I guess you have spotted the differnce between NC and some carebear game rather than a problem TBH.I don't care how much better this game's PvP is than other games; a subject on which I'm mostly agnostic, as I find something to like about PvP in all of them, and something to hate about PvP in all of them. All I know is that without any kind of reward attached to it, and without any kind of orders to tell me who I should be killing, PvP feels pointless to me. If I just wanted to pointlessly shoot people without motivation and for no particular reward, I'd be playing Halo or Counterstrike.

CMaster
07-06-05, 21:59
*shrugs* meeting VIPs won't enhance my PVP
So all you play the game for is the PvP? Thats (realtivley) fine, but that doesnt mean that it doesn't matter to other people. If I want good FPS PvP, I'll fire up (and I do) UT 2004, or Steam. While I still enjoy fighting other runners in this game, it is far from the be-all and end-all of my NC. So don't say that something shouldnt be done because it doesn't fit into your game experience. It may fit into mine, or someone elses. I'll defend you right to PK anyone you want, and even debte whether you should be able to do so anywhere (after all, it would add a nice edge to trading if you had to trade with enemies somewhere they COULD kill you). So you understand that I may have a desire and a right to engage in some other elemnts of the game, storyside. Maybe I might even want to you know, roleplay. Maybe.

40$Poser
07-06-05, 22:04
it's a nice idea and point, but as goes so many great ideas and concepts that get thrown into the recycle bin of community thoughts and points. If it's not something from reakktor, chances are it won't happen.

(much like the dragged on debate about parashock, why do people still insist on arguing over something that reakktor isn't going to listen to or change?)

Brammers
07-06-05, 22:25
5 stars for saying the truth.

Question: Who plays on Pandore, and how do the GM's there play VIP's?

Opar
07-06-05, 22:25
Couldn't agree more, hard to explain, but it would make the game just so much more rewarding.


5 stars for saying the truth.

Question: Who plays on Pandore, and how do the GM's there play VIP's?


Probably, they got everything over there :P

Infinite
07-06-05, 22:32
So all you play the game for is the PvP? Thats (realtivley) fine, but that doesnt mean that it doesn't matter to other people. If I want good FPS PvP, I'll fire up (and I do) UT 2004, or Steam. While I still enjoy fighting other runners in this game, it is far from the be-all and end-all of my NC. So don't say that something shouldnt be done because it doesn't fit into your game experience. It may fit into mine, or someone elses. I'll defend you right to PK anyone you want, and even debte whether you should be able to do so anywhere (after all, it would add a nice edge to trading if you had to trade with enemies somewhere they COULD kill you). So you understand that I may have a desire and a right to engage in some other elemnts of the game, storyside. Maybe I might even want to you know, roleplay. Maybe.
Yup i totally agree, I'm giving MY opnion.. what am i suppsoed to give. You'd fire up UT2k if you wanted a nice fight? Nah you play UT2k4 for totally different reasons. I play AA and UT2k4 but not n e where near as much as NC as NC has better PVP.

RP is for other games :) Even table top roleplay (which I play a lot in RL) I roleplay but RP isnt for NC IMO :)

Sakletare
07-06-05, 23:31
Get Reakktor to apoint Brad lead storyline GM (and give him a big whip to get the other storyline ppl going). :D

Jesterthegreat
07-06-05, 23:46
So all you play the game for is the PvP? Thats (realtivley) fine, but that doesnt mean that it doesn't matter to other people. If I want good FPS PvP, I'll fire up (and I do) UT 2004, or Steam. While I still enjoy fighting other runners in this game, it is far from the be-all and end-all of my NC. its all i play for 90% of the time. i could just as easily say "if you want to see in character NPC's go play final fantasy 7" (i know you didnt say "play this", you said you play this... but its aimed at people in general)... but i won't... it's pointless to say things like that.
So don't say that something shouldnt be done because it doesn't fit into your game experience. It may fit into mine, or someone elses. I'll defend you right to PK anyone you want, and even debte whether you should be able to do so anywhere (after all, it would add a nice edge to trading if you had to trade with enemies somewhere they COULD kill you). So you understand that I may have a desire and a right to engage in some other elemnts of the game, storyside. Maybe I might even want to you know, roleplay. Maybe.


but i agree here.

this game is neither pure RP nor pure PvP. the sooner everyone on both sides realises this the better.

anyway... CM never had a leader or a govener... and our job dealer has gone too now... so think yourselves lucky guys :p

Selendor
08-06-05, 01:31
Whether right or wrong, possible or a flight of fancy, to even raise the subject in such a thorough and detailed way, makes me want to swear allegiance to Reza and die for the city all over again.

Hell, it takes me back to the beginning of Neocron 1, when we really felt like part of our factions, and roleplay went hand in hand with the fighting and smacktalk. And then the game stood still for 3 years...

5 stars.

TWOK
08-06-05, 01:39
Great thread *****.
But...I can understand Ronald Rodriguez being inactive recently as everytime he does something it ends up with him being threatened and killed :rolleyes:

Xephonas
08-06-05, 02:30
Yup, i've played this game since euro retail and i have never, ever, seen a NPC/GM who is something to do with the story.

Dribble Joy
08-06-05, 03:15
No comment, I still think the thread starter and several other people miss a number of points about this subject.

Cor
08-06-05, 04:42
Awesome!! BradSTL, you really got ahead on your shoulders for this kind of stuff. I like this post and I agree with you and all the other post you have done on this game to help new people to this game. I tip my hat to you. You have my vote BradSTL, for EGM and for setting up the VIP's scripture once the art department get into gear, if it ever happens. ;)

Xeno LARD
08-06-05, 10:46
Amen!
5 stars!

Battal
08-06-05, 16:48
but it would make the game just so much more rewarding.

exactly.
5 star.