View Full Version : The Morality of Allied Player Killing
Digital-Talios
24-05-05, 16:33
Imagine for a minute you just logged on. You decide to do some hunting and get a group and head for a real nice hunting spot. As you and your team mates kill the mobs you see one of your team mates drop to the ground in a fury of hot green plasma. You think it’s a red trying to get his thrill by ambushing unsuspecting players. You turn around and see no one other then a fellow green. In the next few seconds you see your body on the ground.
On both sides and perhaps even more so in the city of Neocron allied “ganking” is at a very high level. Most of those who ally pk in Neocron are often DoY alts. Last night one of these people was on alliance chat. His reasoning for allied pking was that it is too hard or involved to actually get a DoY alt into the city. It seams rather ironic considering nearly every day honorable (if there is such a thing) DoY pker infiltrated the city. Neocron sent its defenders and killed the invaders. This was a fun and honorable “event”.
Allied pking is a very low and degenerated act. It is below nib pking and just about on par with scamming people (ex. stealing rares people ask you to build).
Bugs Gunny
24-05-05, 16:39
It's actualy KK's fault for making people resort to this.
Beyond the pepperpark sectors it's hard to raid neocron.
And the dome well, there's a reason why nobody gr's into the dome hq's and waits off si at the hq gr's.....
That's why most allied pking in the dome is done at crp.
Dribble Joy
24-05-05, 16:43
Low as it may be, it should not be stopped by some ingame mechanics. Actions should have consequences, currently they do not.
yea, since when in RL could you kill 4 people and still not have the cops after you?
Bugs Gunny
24-05-05, 17:01
Well, for instance after having a nuclear holocaust happen, two cities at war, danger and anarchy everywhere.
I'll discuss this with the clan, but i feel that CA is the one that should go after these criminals first, due to our faction's ideals etc.
Digital-Talios
24-05-05, 17:19
NCPD mmmmmm should be a faction in its own right.
Policing the streets against scum and villiany... sounds like good role play.
oh yea Bugs I will be joining you guys shortly. Got about 6 more dex/intell levels to cap...
Well, for instance after having a nuclear holocaust happen, two cities at war, danger and anarchy everywhere.
No, it's not anarchy everywhere. NC is actually run by 'a law' (or it should be (Reza (kk) is doing a bad job as it is right now)). That's why we have copbots. And 'the law' not liking som factions (or some factions not likeing 'the law') is the reason some moved to the Dome. (not 100% on this as I don't know the story on the back of my hand)
In the Dome i would think that the factions should/would handle the crimes themselves (that's what the guards are for, right?).
Jesterthegreat
24-05-05, 17:28
a discussion on the morality of it?
i think we all agree its immoral...
Heavyporker
24-05-05, 17:37
Ally pking is scum-low immoral. Fullstop.
And factions are there for a reason - in the midst of a fallen civilization, people are banding up for survival and strength. This necessitates that there be retribution against one that kills his fellow members.
Even street gangs will hunt down a former gangmember that killed another gangmember.
KK... tighten up this shit.
dont think there are any ally pkers.
if they pk u, they're not allied with u anymore.
if u are, its not their problem tbh.
Jesterthegreat
24-05-05, 17:42
dont think there are any ally pkers.
if they pk u, they're not allied with u anymore.
if u are, its not their problem tbh.
don't be silly... the majority of the players cannot manage to think for themselves... they can't decide who is their friends without an ingame list
Attacking the city as doy is pointless and boring due to constantly being parad, attacking the city as a city character is the next best thing tbh.
Remove para from guards and keep the same damage you will have DOY raiders to kill in the city instead of the current alliedPkers
Dribble Joy
24-05-05, 18:08
Putting the gaurds back to lvl 80, upping the dmg to how it was and then giving runners OP style stat bonuses in their home sectors is what I would do as part of a re-org.
Giving the edge to the defenders, but removing the lameness of para.
Vae Victis
24-05-05, 18:27
yea, since when in RL could you kill 4 people and still not have the cops after you? if u are with 4 ppl in the desert and kill them all u wont have the cops on ur ass... yet
Gulinborsti
24-05-05, 18:33
Ally pking is scum-low immoral. Fullstop.
And factions are there for a reason - in the midst of a fallen civilization, people are banding up for survival and strength. This necessitates that there be retribution against one that kills his fellow members.
Even street gangs will hunt down a former gangmember that killed another gangmember.
KK... tighten up this shit.While ally PKing is stupid and the most annoying thing in NC, I don't want any more regulations implemented by KK. That's the job of the community the to punish those he doesn't follow the basic rules of the society.
Well, if KK would change and use the SL/faction symp system to reduce it, it's welcome, of course.
don't be silly... the majority of the players cannot manage to think for themselves... they can't decide who is their friends without an ingame list
u know the lemmings ?
Heavyporker
24-05-05, 19:06
I agree that making *all* the guards just do pure damage, no para, would be much better.
However, there needs to be a distinct hierarchy of strength. Guards should be 80/80. Copbots need to be 90/90 (they're 120/120 now... kinda dumb). Stormbots should be 120/120, and absolutely feared.
Same thing for in the Dome - faction guards (and we DO need to consider the FA turrets) should be 80/80. DoY Guardians should stay the same level - 110/110.
Their A.I needs to be reworked to be more... perceptive...
Faction HQ gr loitering needs to STOP. NOW.
I would just like to point out.
That I managed to get a newly created character at lvl 0/2 from DoY to TH to NC, and all the way into the safety room at the synch line to Plaza 3, without anyone to heal me.
I was driven from DoY to TH and from TH to NC, walked from NC all the way to PP1 and then into the synch line at P3.
Couldn´t get any further due to the long alley with 2 copbots and 3 CA guards, that shot me down and glued me to the ground.
So, saying that it´s too hard to get a DoY char into NC is BULLSHIT!
enigma_b17
24-05-05, 19:11
bugs, nc is easy to raid for these reasons:
# guards do shit all damage
# Most HQ Gr's are unguarded, as are a good few city grs
# The entrance to neocron isnt guarded by hundreds and hundreds of mobs which can kill you in a couple of seconds.
# o and the guards outside the doy entrance north of j16 still does original damage, ie full damage with no para
as for allied pking.....most of it that i have seen are anti-city people creating pro city chars as they dont want to have to deal with the guards (bugawk!!!).
I tryed raiding neocron I actully got my lowtech PE into plaza 1 using noob stealth but I could only stand in one of 2 places and fight. Its very boring and can only really be done when there aren't many people in the city, if you raid when its busy you will be killed by like 10 people. Who you have never even seen befor lol, the copbots do fucking hurt when you are stuck to the floor with 4 of them pelting you. You can't outheal that shit and the parra needs to go not reduced, it just has to be removed completely that goes for NPC and PC parra shock.
Why can't KK get that in thier heads that parra shock fucking pisses people off :mad: Its not just oh I'm pissed off and annoyed its more like OMFG SMASH MONITOR kind of pissed off. It adds nothing to the game other than pissed off players who then get all nasty and pk noobs and swear alot on trade.
Yeh parashocking guards is bullshit. I mean cops in real life do use tazers but then they arrest you. They don't shoot you with some stun type thing then shoot you with BB guns :rolleyes:
Up the damage & drop the para
don't be silly... the majority of the players cannot manage to think for themselves... they can't decide who is their friends without an ingame list
Nail on the f****n head tbh . . .
Same crap we had while fighitng FF while in Crahn.
Bugs Gunny
24-05-05, 20:37
I have raided both cities.
Before they put instashoot guards next to EVERY doy gr you were able to gr in, run past the guards and go outside the hq's and fight a bit.
Now it's impossible except when you're a stealther spy.
DOY guards hurt you HARD. And they shock you good too.
NC has weak guards, you can gr into practicaly any hq and wait off si. Lots of zonewhoreing places to safezones.
The guards do hardly any dammage, my pistol spy could usualy outheal the dammage and hang around in the medicare building.
I ran my crahn HC tank from pp exit gr to the medicare center solo and died inside the medicare due to pro cities.
Constant para makes it extremely annoying to raid NC.
Just remove the para, put instashoot guards near the NC gr's (except PP sectors). Remove the guards from the PP sectors and give pro city open gr's in the abandoned dome sectors (along with an area where there's pro city allied npc's like the hidden hq's in nc. Call them the NC resitstance HQ's or whatever)
copbots and doy guards should do the same dammage. Stormbots should do the same amount of dammage as the doy units and there needs to be more of them. Tune down the amount of copbots in the city.
That's called ballance.
Only thing that really sucks about an allied player attacking you is the soulight and symps you will lose defending your self. Thats all that needs changing they should be flagged for 15 mins were anyone can kill them with out soulight loss. They should have a red box above there head to show they are flagged and everyone will then see they are hostile
Or better yet anyone killing to many greens gets booted from there faction and becomes KOS with that city and has to join another faction.
Jesterthegreat
24-05-05, 20:54
Only thing that really sucks about an allied player attacking you is the soulight and symps you will lose defending your self. Thats all that needs changing they should be flagged for 15 mins were anyone can kill them with out soulight loss. They should have a red box above there head to show they are flagged and everyone will then see they are hostile
however KK cant manage to keep items in a trade window... let alone do this :p
and btw mods... this is a joke, no bans for trolling plz :rolleyes:
Heavyporker
24-05-05, 20:57
Lil T, I absolutely agree about this.
Frankly, ally attackers should be tagged so no one's penalized for self-defense.
Still, I'm kinda concerned about non-LE'd 0/2s running interference for pkers... Got hit once by that and that was very bad. Didn't lose much from the belt, thankfully.
however KK cant manage to keep items in a trade window... let alone do this :p
and btw mods... this is a joke, no bans for trolling plz :rolleyes: I know you meant that as a joke but it seems pretty true sometimes, Its so simple to fix these problems. Or should I say its easy to find a solution I'm aware it might take some coding which could be difficult but it needs sorting. Some of the ideas put forward by some people are a bad way of doing it, like having implants deactivate with low SL yeah that would be greeeeat!! :rolleyes:
Bugs is right about the imbalance with city forces, I only just noticed this when doing the BT epic, there are far far to many doybots. I would say the doy gaurds do hurt more as well and theres no secret entrance for pro city to wander into doy. Not that it would matter since getting past those bots is next to impossible unless your stealthed or having a PPU rezz you 20 times till you reach it.
Back to the morality of allied killed, which I find nothing immoral about; If this is the way you want to play, then play this way. Its neither low, nor degenerate.
It just needs to be viable in some shape or form.
How about another crazy idea to "counter" ally killing.
Anyone can draw weapons in safezones, however the only people you can shoot are non-le'ed people with negative soulight. Or maybe that's a little rough, so people below -16?
personaly i think we need more guards, keep the nurfed damage but remove the para so ppl can fight back, but alow the guards to shoot the second a dome runner is seen (OR BETTER IDEA, MAKE PPL HAVE THE SAME STATUS A FUKIN SOLECLUSTER, U ATACK ONE OF THEM BITCHES AND UR CHARACTER GETS ICED BY THE GUARDS)
Dr Strange
25-05-05, 10:52
Depending apon the situation, I think ally killing is the lowest thing you can do in any online game.
Now note I said depending apon situation. There are times where say, you and your friends/clan/guild/whatever are at war with others of an allied faction whom are ally killers themselves, and usually others know this as well so it's generally accepted.
But in general, killing an ally is just sad. I've got screen shots of NC2 from people using such excuses as "I want to kill EVERYONE but no faction will let me do that, so I just stuck with this faction" or "we decide who are allies and who aren't" or the ever popular "i dont play by F6"
I'm sorry but all three of those statements are just that, excuses. A way out so you can kill anyone you want, reds and greens alike. These people are the lowest form of scum there is.
And the SICK part is, they get off on it. Not to the point of actually enjoying it on really perverted level, but the fact that they know their pissing you off by ally killing you. They get off on knowing their fucking up your playing by being an ally and just ganking you cause they can. I'm sorry but people that do that shit are some lame, mother, fuckers. People that do shit "just cause" or "its fun to piss people off" are the stupidest fuckers in the world. People that enjoy ruining others gaming experience for their own fun are the saddest guys there are.
What sucks is, we are powerless. 99% of these guys have stored blue prints to insta-fix their soulight (in Neocrons case), they've more than likely got backup weapons in case they do drop theirs, and they really don't care about the negative hits to faction sympathy or anything related. What can we do? kill them in return? defend yourself? sure, then I lose soulight, symp and time wasted fixing that. Sure you can go else where, wait out in your apartment, go hunt somewhere whatever.
But why should we? Why should we be forced to play a specific way just because others are assholes?
You know what I do when I get ally killed? I log out and go play some other game. I don't have time to waste on some guy, who is jonesing for a green to kill, probably in a fit of counter strike like rage, and kills the first ally he see's. And before juggs or someone points out the lame "not true" CS analogy, who are you kidding? These types of people are just like counter strike fanboys, they want their action rapid fast killing anyone and anything they can get their crosshair over. If it moves they'll kill it. You know it, I know it, they know it.
People wanna ally kill, let them. The current system is no punishment for them. 5 minutes of doing tl 150 missions and their back to normal. In the mean time I log out my dead guy, go play GW or WoW or whatever has the least asshats at the moment, and later I'll log back in get a rezz and go back to doing what I was doing.
Mighty Max
25-05-05, 11:02
I find nothing immoral about; If this is the way you want to play, then play this way.
Don't get me wrong, i respect the player that wants to play the game this way. But i honestly think he has to deal with the downside of such a character too.
Someone who plays this way to just annoy others without any context that lets the others react to you and your action, does however not care about the player behind the chars instead to not care about the chars. (you know that silly thing of roles :p )
Anyhow, from what i saw in that direction yet is that those players who play(ed) that game this way are the faster quitter. Wait a bit, you the player who does not only care about himself will be here in a month, the other most likely not.
Fun is not feed by an egocentric view, it is feed by friends/allies.
In this context: Have fun :)
Well just as a heads up to people inside the city: If you see Necris or Khaine, they are the characters I "allied PK" on. I am technically Paradox, so I am an enemy to the city anyway. These two alts of mine will always be red or yellow, and if they are green chances are it won't be for very long. Feel free to kill them when you see them.
My PE won't be red all the time, in fact he will stay green (and fairly high) SL, and will only go into the red for people on my personal KoS list. However, I don't "allied PK" people who aren't around my level, and I don't allied PK outside the city. I don't justify my actions as being right, however when someone says over alliance that there is an allied PKer in XX sector, don't be a 'tard and go there, get owned and then whine. Thats like turning up to CRP and whining you got killed if you are clanned (most unclanned runners are allowed to cave at CRP if they behave nicely, otherwise they get a free trip home).
Now that everyone can expect me to kill them, you can't whine about it. If you don't want to die, just run :p
EDIT: And on the topic of the downside - yes, it needs to be improved. If I die on a red SL player (tends to be after -35 for some reason, lol) then loosing all my kit isn't a big deal. Pixels can be replaced. I can live out of HQs to run ress missions to bump my SL back up again, so its no problem. I think that if you get red SL past -16 (thats like 2 or 3 kills if you have 0 SL, so unless you are caving outside a team, its hard to occur) you shouldn't be allowed (as in GR blocks you) anywhere inside the city (or Dome for that matter) and that would include your primary appartmen. Guards should KoS you on sight, and you should be forced to stay somewhere until your SL increases again. I think someone suggested a Penal Colony, perhaps they should make an island for this. That way the only way to increase your SL would be to hang around, therefore enforcing a time sink on anyone who decides to kill allies.
crp is overfloaded with LE'd and rank 33/33 ppl, last night i got 300K (xp that is) from 1 run, wtf is that about it used to be "THE" place for leveling high level chars and raiding but now, no one, except for an ocasional sniper
i've put together a system to get rid of random allied PKing. its here in the brainport (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=125567) to discuss and vote on it.
Bugs Gunny
25-05-05, 13:07
As long as KK doesn't change the npc protection in the cities there will be people using allied alts to pvp.
Nothing much you can do about it, except make your own allied pker and let things get so out of control KK is forced to do something about it.
Some of the things they do are so irrational. Why the hell make MB a safezone, that was one of the few places left where enemies could gr in and meet for pvp. Right now it's another zonewhorers paradise.
Sticking guards next to the dome hq gr's made it impossible to raid the dome (walking in is not an option with the forrest of doy bots).
NC itself is parashock paradise, but once you're in you can zonewhore till you synchfatal. The whole thing needs a SERIOUS overhaul and then people won't ue allieds to raid anymore.
The time to run missions right now outweighs the parashock etc. Once that's better people will just use their real faction/clan to raid.
The direction this game has gone from nc1 is way too much towards an npc controled appartementdesigners internet comunity.
listen all of u, go get a noobie sole cluster, launch it and atack it, the second u shoot it the gaurds will jump u, (actualy its about 3 hits) if the guards saw every character as a cluster, if any character gets atacked (even nibs aonuying high lvls) the guards would waste em, or para em so bad u can laugh as they crawl around after u, i personaly think all ALLIED runners should get the status of SC's and all enemys runners should just be KOS (ie opening fire on a enemy wont let the guards waste u)
All though I think friendly killing is wrong and should be treated the same way as costipation....
I admit a thought which has occured to me - low risk high fun reward .... sounds a little like this.....
Move my dronner to CM, now I have no friends, and neutral, then treat neutral as enemy ....
Then walk around with no armour, no weapons, no nothing except 2 dronnes and a stealth 1. Since I have no need for anything more ....
I can launch and kill anyone except mercs.... and in the name of role playing too
How ? Role Playing since Red is dead and no reds = no deads ....
Lets look at the world and my role. We have 2 sides in general , pro and anti, these 2 side are killing each other all day, At some stage the pros launched a massive attack on the dome, and thats why its in ruins, the Dome have launched attacks on NC and balsted plaza with some mean shit. Now while all this happens, the corperation supporting the war are getting richer, how the hell do you think Bio tech and Proto pharm are able to have such fancy HQ's. And the Directors have not changed in years, so they got cool jobs too...
While they are pouluting the lands causing the mutations as we see them. Now I have to live in swallow and by aligning my self with the mercs, I can fight the battle employed by the land to prevent anyone represeting this way of desctruction....
Man I may even come back and Play NC now that I have a role to play again
Jesterthegreat
25-05-05, 17:25
theres a CM droner only clan starting up i think
Nice example of this today @ DRE HQ/PP3 zone line, anti ppu and apu + pro apu & mc tank helping them. Lost my 5 slot spy 3 from fre too o_O
Freaky Fryd
26-05-05, 00:40
One solution would be to make everyone choose NC, DOY or CM and that's what all 4 of your characters have to be.
If someone wants to buy a second account just so they can have access to two different sides, meh...not much you can do other than link accounts by name & payment info.
Nice example of this today @ DRE HQ/PP3 zone line, anti ppu and apu + pro apu & mc tank helping them. Lost my 5 slot spy 3 from fre too o_O
Paradox APU and PPU, with some random allied pker MC tank, plus me on my APU. Thought it was priceless that you were shit talking on Alliance, then we found you on the zone line :lol:
Oh well, SL is back up so expect to see me at our next raid :cool:
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