View Full Version : How I think stealth should work
The stealth we have now is being abused, a good setup pistol spy can easily take down anyone he wishes to and vanish if he feels slightly threatened. This aggravates people as the spy can easily slip around a corner cast heal re-stealth and come bouncing back at almost full health. I think that stealth should last alot longer than it does now, so it can be used to infiltrate deep into enemy territory.
The way I think it should work is
If you are at full health/hitpoints you get no synaptic impairment for using it but if you are at 80% or lower than your total body health. You would get a small amount of SI each time you use it while having 80% or lower then total hitpoints.
This would stop people using it to jump in and out of a fight but still allow them to get away from trouble and most importantly to gather Intel on the enemy. Stealth duration should be increased making it possible for infiltrators to enter enemy city's undetected and once there able to take people out.
I also think PE's should then get access to even the highest stealth tools if they can fit it into there setups.
just an idea like
bah, stealth shouldnt be used to escape, well not when in a fight,
should take 10 seconds to activate a stlealth then last ages or until u take a stealth block,
then u can use it to get in, but not make a hasty escape,
or you can double fire your stealth tool for a cost of masive drug flash or si or health drain, which will immidiatly stealth you (and simultaniously debuff you)
*sniffs the air* Smells like stealth whoring.
Don't worry I actually like the idea of tacking on a little Si to stealthing while injured, nuthing severe something along the lines of what you get from a drone blowing up mid flight at the moment.
Reintroducing stealth to the PE's even if its one basic 10 second newbies stealth is gonna drag back up the whole PE's Spy stealth debate and that was ended with a class req for stealth tools limiting them to spy's... so why now have a stealth tool for PE's even if a newbie one it could be explained away as been just within the PE's technical capability role play wise but... personally that doesn't work for me so suggestions.
make the newbie stealth tool spy only like the rest of them return that state back to what it was before the newbie content hit. So that leaves us to deal with PE's. A new item perhaps,
Well my idea is a new low level holocamo suit basicly take a PA model for PE's change the req's and values so its for a newbie char and retexture it using some value of transparency.. not full transparency but enough to make it hard to visually pick out but the PE is still targetable like normal.. this would be sort of a fake stealth camo, it fits nicely into a PE infiltrator role as a recon strike unit that is intended for infiltration and combat unlike a spy based infiltrator that is more roleplayed into the character of infilrator for information gathering and black ops. This could be done quickly and cleanly, ... what would need to be done, a new database item entry.. turn all the PE stealth tools to milky rens or simply overwrite the existing entry. Apart from that the art dept would need to come up with a texture thats hard to visually distinguish against most backgrounds due to the semi translucent nature of the material you could probably get away with a single square of texture and using that repeatedly to cover the entire PA. Though I don't know how you'd deal with the currently external weapon mount points on the body models.
thats another thing stealth = le switch, why a stealth tool cant just alter a players gammer so there compleatly invisable but totaly targatable ill never know, it would make it sooooo much more fair, let them shoot while invisable then but if they do get a 3% SI hit and un stealth em, be nice to whack it on run somwhere like up a slope shoot then restealth, each getting a slight hit, and if u dont realise sumbody has a 100% target on u, thats ur own fault, should keep moving, mind u it should make ur target box smaller, apu one click aim is the win and its totaly unfair if in luck he spots the stealthed spy and fires,
One thing to say to that, you can't shoot what you can see.
ye but u can, if ur standing there and i can see you BUT UR STANDING THERE, how come i cant spin around with my pob hacking everything in (or not in as the case may be) sight and eventualy id hit u, blood would spill, and id follow the blood trail hitting u :P
or hel spint on the spot with a speed gat and ud hit sumbody unles they decide to lay on the floor,
the stealth tool dont shift ppl out of reality so it sucks i have to mal/moonie/doom shoot my self (the floor) to hit em
Too many haters...
Leave it down.
Spies should be able to escape and gather intel on their enemies-----that's the DEFINITION of a spy! Their shitty CON is gimpage enough. Let the spies stealth whore, wtf else are they gonna do!?
Gah!
I had just posted somthing in another thread but I might as well post it here too.
I just had a idea to sorta stop it, How about when you go in to stealth all of psi spells just freeze up and their timers don't move untill you are out of stealth. So that means if you heal then use a stealth right after when you come out of stealth your heal will still be full on time.
What do you guys think about that? It wouldnt stop people from stealth whoreing but it would reduce the advantage of stealthing in combat for your health to go up.
bah, stealth shouldnt be used to escape, well not when in a fight,
(and simultaniously debuff you)
unfortuanatly stealth isnt that difficult, get an apu spell on him link fire or poison, watch for foot prints..
as far as running away goes, thats the way i use stealth and no one has ever had a problem.
no good spy uses like shelter buffs, becasue when they stealth and get hit it flares up
i like SI idea. id be happy with that implemented =) tostino's idea is an improvement but would just mean the person runs away and zones as opposed to continues fighting a few seconds later.
Spies should be able to escape and gather intel on their enemies-----that's the DEFINITION of a spy! Their shitty CON is gimpage enough. Let the spies stealth whore, wtf else are they gonna do!?problem there is, they aren't actually weak.. not to mention this idea would not effect using stealth to gather information.
My idea was to combat the PE's and Spys that just use stealth as a heal. I know alot of them do that and they are almost un-beatable because you cant targer them and they heal very quickly. I don't like the SI idea very much though.
thinking about it more.. SI doesn't really solve the whole problem, even with SI you can still stealth and escape away, just not continue to fight right away... stealthing in combat to heal is annoying and makes fights endless but you get the same thing as while they are stealthed you can heal as well..
anything can fix the problem of using it in combat to heal (heal pausing, small SI on destealth, lose all buffs when you hit stealth)
i can't help, gentlemen, but this thread *is* about whining. things you can't have but someone else has, eh? so, why don't you make a spy as your mainchar? because of the disadvantages of that class, i suppose. now think of a neocron of tomorrow, where everyone has the same weapons, skills, tools... how would you call this? counterstrike? maybe. boring? absolutely.
think back to the time when there was no stealth tool. did you see any spies in battles? no. today, with stealth existing, do you find spies the mainstay of neocron's warfaring? no. so, what's wrong?
thats another thing stealth = le switch
Stealth is not an LE switch. Stealthed players can still be hurt using AoE - which means anyone except rifleman can hurt stealthed players. What about this: Stop relying purely on one weapon to be able to take down everyone.
Stealthed players can also be easily tracked if you damage boost them or use a DoT spell such as poison or fire. AFAIK stealthed players are also still affected by area spells such as damage boost sanctum. You can also look out for shelter / deflector effects for spotting a stealthed player. Alternatively, most payers can also just follow the cloumn of smoke.
You complain that stealthing spies have no skills. I put it to you that it is actually those who the spies go up against that have no skills.
Athon Solo
tbh the stealth doesnt really bother me much....i mean if u hate it so much reroll and make a stealth spy or pe and get a stealth tool and u wont hate it as much either....and even tho I say this like I have one myself I really don't I have ballsis who is a melee pe but frankly my melee PE could prolly be taken down from a 0/2 nib as i completely suck at him...so now I dont use the stealth tool
quite a paradox but her. has a point. Every stealth hater should just make a stealthing char and try to combat with him for awhile to see how "easy" it is.
Problem with stealthing PEs could be solved by Tostino's idea.
SI idea is too radical imo as it would render one totally defensless for a certain amount of time. Cooldown switch is better for this - but only if set up properly.
Its just too easy to destroy the whole class (spies, that is) by making stealth uneffective for certain professions (eg non inq armor snipers).
Just increase the distance at which you can see the cloudy blue smoke...thing so that Spies can't run, hide and heal then come back. They can run, but it would be harder to hide and if they really were under threat then they can just GR out.
EDIT: Or rather make the distance you can see the cloudy blue smoke thing dependant on the stealth tool level...
Just make stealth last alot longer.
I means if you want to just stealth away heal and then pop back your gonna have to use stealth breakers and that means drug flash!
Also if your getting hit while stealthed (which isn't hard for most chars to do) you don't have the luxury of stealth wearing off soon so you can just cast as quick heal and restealth. You'd have to drug to get out of the stealth to heal then stealth again. In most both those cases in most combat situations the spy would end up dead, pe might not though...
edit: Maybe the Obliterator should last indefinately. You press once to activate and press a second time to decloak. Would allow people to use it for its intended purpose and might make more people try to use it.
Firstly, lets leave it in game for a while and see how it pans out. Just because the PE class now has a tool to make it competitive with other classes shouldn't mean it is nerfed immediately - I repeat as I always have that if the PE was fine without stealth then more people would play as one...
Secondly, it seems that people are not so much annoyed that PE's have a get-out clause from combat (although 10 secs isn't much), rather, people don't like the fact that a PE can heal fast in that time and come straight back. So yes, if it becomes a problem in Neocron then they can try the synaptic idea, or as others have said, make the stealth last a long time.
Another way to do this would be to have a 5 minute timer on the stealth tool, so that you can only use it once every 5 minutes. This would give any character time to heal to full health if facing one who would normally run away all the time because of weaker resists.
But don't put this out of context, there are all sorts of other balancing issues (PPUS....) that could be done first. You cannot escape from the fact the PE is marginalised in Neocron and has no good reason to be played, especially at the end game (Op wars, MC5, Hacknet, Ceres Caves).
Firstly consider what the purpose of stealth is, it does has many uses after all. The main problem runners have here is they get fustrated because they cannot choose when they start or end the fight!
If you add S.I. to stealthing, you will not get rid of the problems: once stealthed you can get to a safe spot and recover from the S.I. there so it solves nothing.
Another thing I dont know if many of you have considered is everyones best friend - lag. When stealth starts wearing out - you can be stealthed and lag tells everyone else you're unstealthed, so u cannot do a thing except use medkits/drugs, while being shot! Also it doesnt always activate 1st time!
Yet another thing is what most of you DO know is to get a stealthed spy: look for the footsteps, use plama weapons or AoE weapons, keep close so you see the blue haze till they un-stealth, use damage boost or parashock as soon as you can.
If you read the description of stealth is alters your blood, so I sugguest that to stealth you shud be wearing no armour at all or it damages your HP's everytime you use it.
i think stealth is fine, no one has ever had a huge problem with it in the past, people just have to develop methods to take stealthers down. Alot of the time people bitch becuase they dont know how to properly track a stealther. And with fall dmg in the game chances arwe a spy could fall and break his legs and go no where.
Dribble Joy
05-05-05, 16:27
Spies should be able to escape and gather intel on their enemies-----that's the DEFINITION of a spy!
Yes, doesn't mean that spies do that or stealth does that.
Their shitty CON is gimpage enough. Let the spies stealth whore, wtf else are they gonna do!?
Gah!
Anyone who knows anythign knows that spy defence is not poor.
Stealth is not an LE switch. Stealthed players can still be hurt using AoE - which means anyone except rifleman can hurt stealthed players. What about this: Stop relying purely on one weapon to be able to take down everyone.
It is not an entirely literal meaning. It is the effective effect that stealth has.
AoE is completely useless against a stealther that knows what to do.
Unaimed AoE weapons do less dmg, they can be dodged, barrels are even more useless and pistol AoE is pathetic.
You complain that stealthing spies have no skills. I put it to you that it is actually those who the spies go up against that have no skills.
And I put it to you that you don't realise what stealth does. Or are too stuborn to admit it.
People cannot use any skills if their opponent can suddenly decide when they don't like continuing a fight, and being able to do so with little or no risk. Stealth's immidiate effects are the real issue, it acts too fast and it cannot be countered effectively. It's users should not be able to have the choice to simply leave a fight when they want.
A simple delay between fireing and it's effects would make things a lot more bareable, while still giving it the recon/espionage abilities. It is not an escape tool, it's an avoidance tool, and those are very different things.
Saying stealth is fine and 'omg, learn to play teh game!!1! roffle' is just like saying the same thing about PPUs.
Spy defense is relatively poor expecially compared to a PE (without drugs that is). Unless your talking about having to use atleast 2 drugs to be combat effective.
A well setup PE doesn't even need drugs to use and cap for eg. his Judge now thats a weapon thats 20 Lvl's higher than a PE's DEX cap yet its easy for a PE to use it and have very good resist's!
Now for a Spy to be competitive he has to Drug to get +5 PSI to use a shelter just to be competitive and if he really wants decent fire resist he has to use a MOVEON, Strength Booster 2 and a STR drug.
Just like you said you don't want to judge a PE offense by his ability to use Damage Boost then don't judge a Spies defense by him needed to take 2 Drugs and use 2 STR implants.
Simple solution is make stealth last much longer, it can be more of a hinderence than a saviour if the person or people fighting you know what they're doing.
A simple delay between fireing and it's effects would make things a lot more bareable, while still giving it the recon/espionage abilities. It is not an escape tool, it's an avoidance tool, and those are very different things.
There already is a delay in that you have to select it again and then activate it, with lag that can be serveral seconds and if your a spy trying to get away in those few seconds you could have just lost over half your health or died! :(
Saying stealth is fine and 'omg, learn to play teh game!!1! roffle' is just like saying the same thing about PPUs.
We all know PPU's are overpowered, Blessed and Holy Heal needs nerfing and mob damage with it to compensate.
Stealth is fine ands it easy to kill them.
SORT OUT PARA FIRST ITS ONLY TAKING FUCKING THREE YEARS.
Then worry about other things TBH.
Netphreak I will agree with you on somthing, A un druged spy blows ass. But KK have the game balanced very well so a 2 drug PE can use Slasher/exe and have 120-125 in fire energy and xray and 35 poison. A 2 drug spy can get 120-128 in fire and energy and 180+ in xray and use slasher and exe. I see that as being very fair. The PE gets a little more HP but lower xray.
Netphreak I will agree with you on somthing, A un druged spy blows ass. But KK have the game balanced very well so a 2 drug PE can use Slasher/exe and have 120-125 in fire energy and xray and 35 poison. A 2 drug spy can get 120-128 in fire and energy and 180+ in xray and use slasher and exe. I see that as being very fair. The PE gets a little more HP but lower xray.
wasnt there a no inq, no shelt pistol spy in nf the other day who was doing pretty good ;) think he beat you once or twice :angel:
yeah spies arent weak with 2 drugs whatsoever. and if your comparing to a PE, most PE's use at least 2 drugs anyway...
wasnt there a no inq, no shelt pistol spy in nf the other day who was doing pretty good ;) think he beat you once or twice :angel:
yeah spies arent weak with 2 drugs whatsoever. and if your comparing to a PE, most PE's use at least 2 drugs anyway...
who was it? if Dark avengance has been nfing on my chars and not wining again im gona get pissed...
And I almost never use drugs on my PE unless it is needed for the gun that im gona use.
i think it was you there your spy was definetly winning so i dont think it was claw ;) the spy... i cant think of name but i didnt know him, he had just come back
i think it was you there your spy was definetly winning so i dont think it was claw ;) the spy... i cant think of name but i didnt know him, he had just come back
Was it the day I was trying to fraps alot and my comp keped crashing?
i think thats a GREAT idea lil stealth can still be used to escape but NOT to *stealth whore* meaning shoot heal stealth shoot heal stealth etc very good idea
when in stealth movement speed should be decreased IMO. would be a good way of balanceing because people who use it to heal could still be hit with AOE quite easily as they wouldnt be able to run out of the effect.
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