View Full Version : Does either city have an unfair advantage after patch 131?
The changes that came with patch 131 (Old Canyon revamp, subway revamp, various internal-security changes throughout the cities) have people on both sides complaining that the game is now unfair to their side. So I set out to analyze the differences, point by point.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
In equipment other than psi (where it would be massively out of character for the Dome not to have an advantage), the Dome of York has a significant advantage in items that can be blueprinted and copied, but this is offset by the fact that Neocron City has a huge advantage in things that can't.
In security, the Dome of York is harder for the enemy to get to, but much easier to move around in once you get there than it is in Neocron City.
For hunting, the City starts out a lot easier but the Dome finishes a little easier.
Overall, this seems to me to be pretty fair. Now, point-by-point:
EQUIPMENT
When I list a weapon type below, what I mean are "the level 2 and 3 weapons." After all, the entry-level weapons of these types and the rare weapons are available everywhere.
NC Smugglers Only: PE PA, SMGs, 9mm pistols.
DOY Smugglers/Vendors Only: Inq armor, laser pistols, raygun and freezer cannons, fusion weapons, psi spells, gliders.
Vendor Advantage: DOY, but barely. The Inquisition armor is the one that really ticks people off. Pistol users are about even; the city has the only good low tech pistols, but the Dome has the only access to the best high tech pistols. I can see why the mid-level raygun cannon thing matters, but does anybody actually use mid-level fusion or freezer weapons? Yes, it sucks to be a psi monk in Neocron City. It's supposed to suck to be a psi monk in Neocron City. They're an oppressed minority and their equipment vendors have been outlawed by the current regime. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that any of this section matters, though, because these are all blueprintable items; once each side sells one of each at Tech Haven, the blueprints can be bought from players on either side.
NC FSMs Only: All level 3 implants except psi and spines, level 3&4 spy PA, experimental hearts, and all but 2 of the ground combat vehicles, none of which can be blueprinted. Also two pistols that can be blueprinted.
DOY FSMs Only: Level 3 psi implants, level 3&4 monk and PE PA, experimental bones, hover aircraft, and super-resist drugs, none of which can be blueprinted. Also the +5 drugs, which can be blueprinted and cloned and everybody has huge stacks of them.
FSM Advantage: NC by a wide margin. When it comes to non-blueprintable items, the Dome's advantage in psi implants is far, far offset by the fact that the implants the other 3/4 of the population needs are only sold in Neocron.
SECURITY AND SAFETY
Wastelands near NC: Roughly a dozen lone STORMbots in clearly marked, easily avoided locations in the middle of zones.
Wastelands near DOY: Many hundreds of DOY bots, including at least four large clusters in unmarked locations at zone boundaries.
Wastelands Advantage: DOY, clearly.
NC Entrances: One insanely heavily guarded, with layers of Stormbots halfway out into the zone. One only usuable by people with low or negative soul light. Three completely unguarded, except by the other side.
DOY Entrances: Three, each one guarded by two lone guards that are easily run past and a couple of guards inside who can only get one shot off at most before you reach safety.
Entrances Advantage: None. Both are pretty insecure, by design.
NC HQs: BT, CA, DRE, NEXT, and PP HQ genreps unguarded. (But the CA one is a near thing; one wrong step or even a crowd at the genrep and you're toast.) TT guarded.
DOY HQs: TS guards have no line of sight to genrep. CS, BD, FA and TG guarded.
HQ Advantage: DOY, clearly.
NC Internal Security: Cops everywhere, you can't fart anywhere in any of the 9 main city zones without wrinkling the nose of a Copbot or faction guard. All zone lines guarded. 3 of the enemy factions have guarded areas they can retreat to, but one's in a ridiculously out-of-the-way area where nobody is affected.
DOY Internal Security: Except at the zone lines and faction HQ entrances, almost non-existant. Admittedly, though, there are no enemy mini-HQs in the Dome.
Internal Security Advantage: NC, by a wide margin.
HUNTING AREAS
NC Low-Level: About 60, with a much wider variety of maps and mobs than the Dome, and the Hovercab subway to help you get between them.
DOY Low-Level: About 30, with only about 6 maps, and they don't include about a third of the Quickjob mobs.
NC High-Level: It's easier for the City to get to the Point Red and Sherman Bay undergrounds, and maybe a couple of others. Outdoors, the Y Replicants are practically next door.
DOY High-Level: It's easier for the Dome to get to the Graves, El Farid underground, and the old DOY tunnels. In particular, getting to all of those the Graves involves sneaking past a fair number of DOY Scout bots. Outdoors, the Dome is a lot closer to Warbots and a little closer to the Grims.
Hunting Areas Advantage: Neocron City huge at the low levels, Dome of York small but significant at the upper levels. Note that the Swamp Caves and Crystal Caves are wide open. Easy access to the Outdoor (Chaos) Caves and the Gaia Mines is determined by who controls Tezla and Cycrow. On Terra server, both of those outposts have been in Dome hands pretty consistently, but that's not Reakktor's fault.
Fair points on all except the high level hunting areas for Pro City. The Old Anti HQ's within NC are full of high level mobs, which give loads of XP :D
Heavyporker
30-04-05, 21:42
except you're slaughtered even before you can open the door in these abandoned HQs...
Dribble Joy
30-04-05, 22:06
The whole faction item distribution system needs a rework.
except you're slaughtered even before you can open the door in these abandoned HQs...
I'm not sure I see how? I admit, I've only been in each one once. But ...
Abandoned Tsunami HQ: When you first cross the zone line, there's an inner door that's still closed. I don't remember any of the level 100 beggars being outside it? This gives you a place to buff up and form team before you go in. Granted, once you go in, you're in a ridiculously small free-fire zone. I could easily imagine it taking two PPUs per combat player to keep people alive. But zoning in should be as safe as houses?
Abandoned Black Dragon HQ: I didn't go very far into this one, but it should have the same advantage as the one above plus one more: lots of twisty little passages mean that you shouldn't have to fight more than one or two at a time. One tank with a raygun cannon or a fusion cannon and one PPU should be able to clear it out in no time?
Abandoned Crahn Cathedral: Has anyone actually made it all the way to the back room of this barbecue pit?
The downside to hunting in either of these places, which is why I didn't think of it, is that the loot really really sucks, or so I'm told. (Now, if those gatlin rifles the beggars drop were TL90 and sometimes near-artifact quality, like Judgement Day Launchers are, that'd be a horse of a different color.) But now that you mention it, what hunting area in the Dome has level 100 mobs in it?
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention one unrelated point. How much of the complaining about DoY bots would go away if the damned things didn't camp the zone boundaries?
Turns the cooker to gas mark 4.
Im gettin tired of battling over these idea a direct catergorical statement from the Dev's on how they think the game is balanced is needed.
Smugglers/Vendors
DoY Barely.... ummm no I don't think so soley by the fact of Monk Items it puts the balance squarely in the favour of DoY allowing to easily create the only healer class in the game which op wars and high level hunting relys upon. And apu's can be extremely deadly to unbuffed spys, tanks and pe's combine them with PPU's and you have one of the most deadliest killing teams in the game, If you've ever spent time observing opwars, you'll notice that it can often descend into monk wars with the majority of other classes dead. And by the size of the list you made for this saying it barely favours DoY is frankly purely biased as you play DoY
FSM's
Admitedly NC has the level 3 chips and eyes implants but a majority of these are stepping stones on the way to high level implants in the case of the eyes, ok you got us there that swings a little in our favour, then again now to the best of my knowledge DoY is the only one with access to Experimental and Xray Bones which kinda balances that out and the PSI level 3 chips kinda balance out the other chips slightly.
All in all FSM's down the line though on the PVP side its sqewed in DoY favour now by Monks and Xray Bones. and 3/4 of the poulation thats a figure u've just plucked from the air who says that 3/4 of the population of NC2 aren't monks.
Wastelands advantage: Don't think anyone could really argue against the fact that DoY has the advantage there.
Entrances: By the lone fact that NC has unguarded entrance with internal guards hostile to City even if u can run past the guards at DoY its a matter of principle. And btw you need to visit the jail house more often the guards aren't triggered by soul light anymore as its the Secret Tusnami Entrance.
HQ's: Majorly in favour of DoY, and btw TT though it appears guarded you can gr in out of range of the guards an happily run around the HQ aslong as you observe the 3 second rule. once you have the GR. so DoY guarded NC not
Internal Security: Copbots everywhere but placed hap-hazardly producing gaps in security, DoY guards are place methodically and far better.
Its a Toss up really but most certainly not in great favour of NC Copbots tend to be weaker with only the para making them deadly certainly far more sewers and leveling spots for people to sewer hop working their way in to NC then DoY.
Hunting area's: Low level yuh this is pritty much in favour of NC at the moment because the low leveling zones were built into NC in NC1 when newbie runners weren't expect to leave the city until they got some levels under their belt, this issue has to be addressed for DoY newbies.
High level hunting area's: Im not really going to argue over this because I've said it all before so has porker, cmaster and bugs,
Just read what i posted before. http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?p=1801404#post1801404
With the canyon now under TG control Tezla Cycrow easier to hold by Anti City.
The old HQ's in the City TS and CS hq's are pritty much instakill on the zoneline BD you can perhaps get away with it but its kinda close quarters
Oh and Anti City has 7 lvl 3 PA's compared to 2 lvl 3 PA's held by city and 2 lvl 3 held by CM's
edit: In fact thinking about that look what happend with the Tank lvl 3 PA when we came to NC2... its almost like someone went awww Poor TG can't easily get a lvl 3 Tank PA cus there hostile to CM lets give em the old white tank lvl 3 PA rather than having to make them work for it. which has been a CM item since it made it ingame.
Abandoned Tsunami HQ: When you first cross the zone line, there's an inner door that's still closed. I don't remember any of the level 100 beggars being outside it? This gives you a place to buff up and form team before you go in. Granted, once you go in, you're in a ridiculously small free-fire zone. I could easily imagine it taking two PPUs per combat player to keep people alive. But zoning in should be as safe as houses?
this ones a good spot, its not as hard as that... i went in a team of like 4 with one ppu and a pistol spy, melee tank, and hc tank. we did fine. its best to just stay at the entrance and not go in far(or usually even through the doors at all), they respawn very fast and also in emergencies you can sync. on if the team happened to all die the ppu could wait for the beggers to go back into their room to rezz.
You seriously need to get out more.
Toxen, if you have a problem with the fact that Crahn Sect took all the good psi monk equipment with them when they were thrown out of the city, take it up with the Reza administration. Newsflash: Yakarma was a front for the Crahn Sect, we knew that more than 2 years ago. They're gone now, kaput, finished. There is no way there could be level 2 and level 3 psi spells in Neocron City now without completely breaking continuity.
It sounds like what your real problem there comes down to is that in your opinion, and others, there is no substitute for the APU+PPU 2-man team. Well, maybe that's the problem right there? (Although there is. A well-hidden 2-man rigger team of Raptor+Mosquito could pwn almost any APU+PPU team.)
OK, a few points. One - I don't think anti-city versus pro-city FSM comparisons has any validtiy. A NEXT runner has no more access to biotech FSM items than a Black Dragon runner has. And "you can just buy the BPable itesm BPs". Uh-huh. Thats lovely, in theory, but in NEVER WORKS. When I first played this game, cash was always tight, so I always tried to buy BPs of weapons first, then the weapon iteself. I got the BP once. So to me the unpable stuff is more important, especially as there is always a good trade in FSM specialists.
Regarding entrances, sa Toxen says, easily avoidable guards, while not a major obstacle, doesnt compare equally with an entrance initally protected by no guards, followed later by guards friendly to the invaders... Also, OZ station is a cakewalk. I've seen 0/2s run through unscathed.
Low Level hunting areas - the situation with these in DoY raeally needs to be addressed or so I gather.
Anti-city (with the exception of CS) is also vandal proof - this is defintaley a non-trivial advantage, especially for vandal-camping droners.
One issue against anti-city you didn't raise - TG can't by Duranium. Still, at least their allies can.
I'd also suggest that to make up for the fact that anti-cities can no longer use the subway, that main-sewers be extended to have entrances in Plaza and Via Rosso - although most raiders use the unguardeed HQ GRs anyway.
Pro-city no longer has easy access to an anti-gamma vendor - the one that used to be in Ind A has been moved to the OZ Jail - if you are good and a reasonable level, you can get to him...
Via Rosso 3 smuggler - I believe he has some weapons (plasma waves?) not availble to anti-city.
And mosquitos? Those things anti-heal is pathetic. A nice 5 second-timer to when my heal is about to run? Thanks, I'll just time my next heal right then.
Those abanded HQs (TS especially) are good for tanks. Not so hot for monks though - again the monk-o-cron problem makes the monk-freindly (El farid and Chaos) caves more valued.
The canyon change has particularly annoyed a few-pro cities (like myself) that used it as an access point to the east side of the map and catlock bay caves (CRP are suicide). Guess that just means that we have to take back Forter/Grant/Ceres though.
The point is though, there are no so many items anti-city only (or anti-city+CM in a few cases) that having an antii-city shopper starts to look vital. Its not a huge swing, imo but its a substantial one. Patch 131 certainly felt to a lot of people I talk to like the "shaft pro-city" patch, even if it does sound like our new epic is best.
Vae Victis
01-05-05, 03:08
You seriously need to get out more. amen brotha!
Richard Blade
01-05-05, 03:30
Toxen, if you have a problem with the fact that Crahn Sect took all the good psi monk equipment with them when they were thrown out of the city, take it up with the Reza administration. Newsflash: Yakarma was a front for the Crahn Sect, we knew that more than 2 years ago. They're gone now, kaput, finished. There is no way there could be level 2 and level 3 psi spells in Neocron City now without completely breaking continuity.
It sounds like what your real problem there comes down to is that in your opinion, and others, there is no substitute for the APU+PPU 2-man team. Well, maybe that's the problem right there? (Although there is. A well-hidden 2-man rigger team of Raptor+Mosquito could pwn almost any APU+PPU team.)
Roleplay continuity is one thing, but getting item distribution to be even would make the game stay playable. No international release noob is going to like playing pro-city.
I checked out the pro-city vender, he's gone. Unless they moved the vendors and didn't tell anyone where, the anti-drugs got removed from NC. This wrecks PvP pretty bad.
I don't recall, does anyone know if those same drugs are available in or near to the dome?
I concede that Crahn sect would have taken their goodies with them and it would wreck aspects of the story line if they were "obviously" sold in stores.
But I think they could come up with a "roleplay" reason to have a supply in NC somewhere. Afterall, the Crahn church is still packed full of badass bald guys. Maybe the spells could be filtered out of there by a smuggler or two.
Wouldn't they want to supply their psi monk brothers?
But, the rest of the item distribution is bullshit.
Regards,
RB
Obsidian X
01-05-05, 04:14
You could always say a contingent of outcasted Crahn monks decided to defect to Neocron city, and at least sell some goddamn level 2 spells. I hate the way Anti have a monopoly on everything PSI related. Pro-city monopolises Lv 3 imps, if that, we don't control much else. The fate of all monks lies inside the dome though. :rolleyes:
Toxen, if you have a problem with the fact that Crahn Sect took all the good psi monk equipment with them when they were thrown out of the city, take it up with the Reza administration. Newsflash: Yakarma was a front for the Crahn Sect, we knew that more than 2 years ago. They're gone now, kaput, finished. There is no way there could be level 2 and level 3 psi spells in Neocron City now without completely breaking continuity.
It sounds like what your real problem there comes down to is that in your opinion, and others, there is no substitute for the APU+PPU 2-man team. Well, maybe that's the problem right there? (Although there is. A well-hidden 2-man rigger team of Raptor+Mosquito could pwn almost any APU+PPU team.)
Ok then Brad playing into your idea of continuity why are there still psi level 1 smugglers around if they can get spells surely they can get level 2 psi items... and further more lets look at it the other way
Anti Gamma bones made by biotech then why are they freely available in doy same for normal and advanced bones and level 1-2 implants heck even armour and weapons are made using TANGENT weapon and armour parts, and Drugs are made from PP's medical substances and Implants are made from Biotech Implant parts... so unless TT, PP and BT are actively shipping huge quantities of these parts from NC to DoY no one in doy should have access to them.
Hey I've got an idea we could take this idea turn it into a patch and call it the shaft DoY-Patch see who starts whineing then.
edit: And oh yes I would quite welcome another monk nerf (Ummm lets see 3000 Apu to use the newbie energy bolt) Brad only problem is now any monk nerf actually pushs monks away from NC and Further into ease of play in DoY
Bugs Gunny
02-05-05, 10:00
Brad,
If you want to make roleplay the reason behind it all, then please return us all out tangent developed weaponry, biotech made gammabones, no more pe pa's for you lot,....
Also, show me the place where all those hundreds of doy units are still being produced then.
I've been on both sides of the map, and you seriously should make a pro city char, and try leveling him up to cap using places near the city. Then try raiding the dome.
That is if you're not too bussy fighting off the anti city people who genrep straight into CA, NEXT, DRE, PP, BIOTECH hq.
Yes, the dome is indeed for "experienced players" only, hence the need for guards near all their hq and city gr's.
You seriously need to get out more.
your so fuckin right
Brad,
... you seriously should make a pro city char, and try leveling him up to cap using places near the city. ...
I did. You may have seen him around, he was a Biotech gentank soldier named Jack Bradley. I didn't get all the way to CON cap, and was only at 94 base STR, when I got bored with playing a gentank and deleted him. Nevertheless, the point remains: it was easy. MC5 to Cellars to Bunker to Malstrond and Gabanium. I think it took me a couple of weeks, playing this character only every other or every third day, and I think I farmed something like a hundred or 200 rare parts doing it. I didn't even take the easy out and gun a Rhino or a Reveler; that was all solo and on foot, mostly with plasma waves.
For my epic kills, I helped a group defend plaza 2 from incoming TG, paid off an FA runner after trying for days to find an Angel who wasn't in a safezone, and then raided TS sector solo. Raiding TS sector has to have been the second or third easiest kill I've gotten in this whole game; I've had harder times fighting warbots. I entered the sector with zero difficulty on my first try, camped the elevator lifts for 15 minutes, killed the first near-capped runner I saw, and headed for home. It was so easy it wasn't even fun.
What was supposed to have been the hard part?
Screenies please. Without screenies ur still all talk rember you still lack credibility after claiming that there were unguarded DoY gr's post patch
Bugs Gunny
02-05-05, 13:45
I would love to see him taking an unbuffed(ppu) hc tank down the tsunami elevators and making it to the first ledge without getting killed :-)
I did. You may have seen him around, he was a Biotech gentank soldier named Jack Bradley. I didn't get all the way to CON cap, and was only at 94 base STR, when I got bored with playing a gentank and deleted him. Nevertheless, the point remains: it was easy. MC5 to Cellars to Bunker to Malstrond and Gabanium. I think it took me a couple of weeks, playing this character only every other or every third day, and I think I farmed something like a hundred or 200 rare parts doing it. I didn't even take the easy out and gun a Rhino or a Reveler; that was all solo and on foot, mostly with plasma waves.
For my epic kills, I helped a group defend plaza 2 from incoming TG, paid off an FA runner after trying for days to find an Angel who wasn't in a safezone, and then raided TS sector solo. Raiding TS sector has to have been the second or third easiest kill I've gotten in this whole game; I've had harder times fighting warbots. I entered the sector with zero difficulty on my first try, camped the elevator lifts for 15 minutes, killed the first near-capped runner I saw, and headed for home. It was so easy it wasn't even fun.
What was supposed to have been the hard part?
and to get his MC5 chip did you walk into MC5 without getting shot, slash the base comm with a junk-knife 1 time and insta kill him. then when you looted did it have all of the mc5 chips fully constructed drop just for you?
I would love to see him taking an unbuffed(ppu) hc tank down the tsunami elevators and making it to the first ledge without getting killed :-)
I did it myself. Twice. Sorry I can't show you any more, I deleted the character, but the first time they didn't even shoot me once. I made it to the mid-level walkway before they opened fire. The second time they got one shot off that hit. Since I was using anti-gamma bones and a filter heart 2, that one shot took about 40% of my health off, and I just stood in Boobs & Guns and healed up before moving on.
OK, I was wrong about the extra defenses in the HQ genrep rooms, and I don't deny that you guys need the same things now that we have it in all but one. My defense on that is that two of the three of those weren't there on Wednesday and there wasn't anything in the patch notes to make me think to look.
But I'm telling you right now that if they have the patience to sneak around the DoY bots out in the desert, any upper-mid level self-buffed character, except maybe an unbuffed APU monk, can waltz right into the west entrance, into Tsunami sector. I know this because I'm just plain not that good at this game, was playing an upper level tank for the first time in two and a half years, and the character's resists weren't anywhere near optimized, and I was still able to do it twice. The east entrance, into Black Dragon sector doesn't look any tougher, the same one to two guards with blocked sight lines outside and the same one to two guards at the bottom of the gravlift. (I didn't try that one, and there may have been more guards inside the sector than TS sector has; I admit here that YMMV.)
Getting into the middle entrance, into Twilight Guardian sector, looks harder to my eye. The outside guards are a little better placed, and due to the ramp design you're in their direct view for longer. What's more, it's a little harder to get around in that sector without running past guards. It's worth trying, though, because that entrance leads to the triangle of sectors (TG, FA, CS) that make up 90% of the population of the Dome. Those three sectors are our "Plaza" sectors, really, they should be as hard to.
Now tell me how a similar level Tsunami tank could waltz right into any Plaza or Via Rosso sector and stand around outside the apartment elevators with no fear of guards or Copbots? Not counting the ones in PP2, PP3, and OZ1 that nobody lives in, is there even one apartment elevator in NC that doesn't have at least one Copbot or guard outside it at all times? I don't remember one off hand.
Yes, you have less secure HQs. And it struck even me at the time that it makes NO sense for the CA HQ GR to be unguarded; they should take out that wall between it and the Copbot in the next room with all the CityComs. But now that they've locked the subways down and hard, who other than stealther or hacknet spies is going to be able to tag NC HQ GRs anyway, from now on?
Nor did you bother to reply to my example of how to level a tank up to the cap, in about the same amount of time, from the city side. The only hunting areas that are completely over-run in DoY bots are the empty desert sectors which nobody uses, the northern-most canyon sector, and the area around the Graves. If you all got off your lazy, backstabbing butts and finally took Cycrow away from the TGs and held it, something I've been expecting to happen for weeks now and am at a loss to guess why it hasn't happened, you wouldn't even have to do without the chaos caves. (Never mind that the matching caves in Catlock Bay aren't that hard to get to from the south and are almost never used.) But my example proved that you don't need the chaos caves to level, and who levels in the graves other than a few droners, really?
The reason you all think it's so hard to find high level hunting spots from Neocron City is that you got mentally lazy. Back in Neocron 1, you got in the habit of going cellars to bunker to El Farid to chaos caves, and if anything knocks you off of those rails you just flounder around and complain rather than use any one of the many equally good or better spots, indoors or outdoors, that you have available to you.
i just think its unfair that anti city have 3 strongholds they can attack from or maybe 2 seen as anyone can go from th but meh what can you do :rolleyes:
guess it kinda suxx for anti attackin nc now though seen as we can chase em into the subway and they will be para spammed to shit.......but most anti have grs in pro :lol:
The whole faction item distribution system needs a rework.
It wouldn't if NPC Playershops were in-game :p
Anyone else feel that Toxen has Chran Envy.... join the brotherhood.... its a non stop monk filled party smothered in love
Bugs Gunny
03-05-05, 14:37
Preach, what does crahn have to do with his post?
And we don't care much for your kinky loveparties.
However, i see you want us to come back to crahn. Let me discuss this with my clanmates. Never thought you'd want us back. But hey. It might get interesting again :-)
EDIT: i'm just kidding, i wouldn't feel right in a city that's so overprotected and favored by KK.
However, i see you want us to come back to crahn. Let me discuss this with my clanmates. Never thought you'd want us back. But hey. It might get interesting again :-)
EDIT: i'm just kidding, i wouldn't feel right in a city that's so overprotected and favored by KK.
Bugs, did i ever tell yu i love yu?
Bugs Gunny
03-05-05, 14:53
No, that's why i always felt abused when i woke up in your bed :D
Vae Victis
03-05-05, 14:55
No, that's why i always felt abused when i woke up in your bed :D if i would give comment on this, Nidhogg would have to edit it..
so..... no comment o_O
Bugs, did i ever tell yu i love yu?
:lol: :lol: :lol: how sweet, bugs got a fanboi :lol: :lol: :lol: :D
Bugs Gunny
03-05-05, 15:02
Guys, don't mean to go expose you and all, but i've noticed the venom clan appartement has only one bed... and .... well .... :angel:
Vae Victis
03-05-05, 15:03
yeh but im male and the rest of venom are girls irl...
so :D :D :D :D
lots of loving going on in there
No, that's why i always felt abused when i woke up in your bed :D
meh yu said the cash was all the love yu needed :p
:lol: :lol: :lol: how sweet, bugs got a fanboi :lol: :lol: :lol: :D
what? a bit of mansex is now no longer fashonable in NC2?
TEH HUMMAINITY!!!
THINK OF TEH CHILDRENZ!
Bugs Gunny
03-05-05, 15:05
:D
I'll let you guys fight that one out lol.
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