View Full Version : [Merged]PCZONE UK Review - 24%
Owch.
Very scathing review, page 116 June 2005 Copy.
And one comment
Not that you'd really want to meet another neocron player. Based on the several weeks running around this hell on virtual earth. I can say they are, to a man, the most obnoxious, foul-mouthed,unhelpful, bitter, spiteful,unpleasant and insular MMOG players I've ever had to encounter. - Paul Presley
Couldn't help but laugh at it ! :lol:
landofcake
23-04-05, 12:07
That quote is a shame really, there are many like that but unfortunatley there are those who really are helpful and normal people ...
Dr Strange
23-04-05, 12:24
*pulls up a chair*
this is gonna be good, cant wait to see what Nid thinks of this review ;p
Neocron, "you'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."
Unfortunately I do actually find that very funny :) I cant say I've had those experiences, I tend to ignore idiots.
Whenever I've needed help in the past, I've practically always got my answer from the help channel.
edit: With all these reviews coming out ahead of the international release, it should be clear that the servers need to be patched to that level so they are not reviewing the current version!
A tad harsh, but that said - there's a huge amount of arses in this community - not pointing fingers, lest they be pointed back at me :p
Dribble Joy
23-04-05, 12:56
From what I've gathered NC has as many cunts running about in it as other MMORPGs, it's just that people see WoW or SWG in some sort of revereance and filter them out and it's quite a bit easier for them to be vocal in NC.
That said NC's worst part is it's community.
Giving the game 24% is a bit vindictive though, I get the feeling the reviewer had a particuarly bad experience/was a bitter ex-player and just wants to get KK back for it.
i cant understand that unless he came along the OOC channel :rolleyes: it kinda makes me laugh that he has rated games such as planetside higher an it well sucks... and i spose alot of the people being unfriendly is due to how much this game is based around the pvp which tends to get people all pissy :lol:
Anyone got the text of it?
I'd prefer to read it rather than guess what it says (especially after my gaff in the other review thread).
Funny. PC Zone UK gave NC1 82% or something, cant remember now. 80 something anyway. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Also, NC1 was once 2nd placed in their top MMORPGs. But that was 2 years ago.
EDIT : Okay, found the NC1 review. Score : 85%.
good points of NC1
- Excellent character development opperunities
- Virtually lag free
- Convincing sci-fi stmosphere
bad points
Very limites class selection
Numerous comedy bugs and unexpected crashes
Team-play non-existant as of yet
So, of the bad points (reviwed in Jan 03 issue, so Dec 02 when it was released), only 2 have been fixed.
I think this should be a wake up call to KK. They need to start fixing things, not adding stuff.
*pulls up a chair*
this is gonna be good, cant wait to see what Nid thinks of this review ;p
HAhahah!! Indeed,
I don't even know what to say to the review. Maybe they are right but the fact that I have no desire to play another mmorpg and have been here since (look to the left) Neocron is doing something right! (pvp)
Good point Drake.
Maybe we need to look at the game, and think, maybe, JUST MAYBE, Neocron really is only a 24%/58% game.
either way, I love it..... sometimes
:D
Who gives a shit tbh. I'm sure some of the best games I've played have had reviews that didn't match the quality of the game. Not saying that NC is perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I think 24% is a tad low imo
:D Sounds very much like a case of inability to detach & give a review that isn't based entirely on personal opinion, but I'd like to give the whole thing a read.
There are MMORPGS with far worse groups of people who I'm sure would bring this particular reviewer to tears - but the communities are far more diluted when compared to Neocron's.
I've noticed there are alot more arseholes ingame than before and that was just one day, i finished downloading the bin 2 file last night at about 4.30am and played up untill about 9am.
Admittedly I wasnt shot and people where generally quite helpful and it was nice to meet a cpl of people really role playing!
A guy called priest or somthing on terra "Yeah i got some flash, this shit gets you real high baby" and he was protopharam too!
Loved it, really made me want to play nc2 again despite the petty insults and lameness that was going on.
On a side note the graphics are shit! I really don't like them and the game is now a real system hog :(
I am interested to see the whole review because that comment is nothing but slander.
Yeah come on guys, I typed up the whole PCGamer review, only took 20 mins. You readers of the inferiour uk games mag get your typing fingers out.
Yeah come on guys, I typed up the whole PCGamer review, only took 20 mins. You readers of the inferiour uk games mag get your typing fingers out.
UK PC gamer is crap, it used to be such a good read and the price was great, £3.99 about 200 pages and 1 or 2 demo disc's
not it's half the size costs twice as much for the dvd version.... :(
UK PC gamer is crap, it used to be such a good read and the price was great, £3.99 about 200 pages and 1 or 2 demo disc's
not it's half the size costs twice as much for the dvd version.... :(
Agreed. PC Gamer is pathetic compared to PC Zone.
PC Zone? You mean the "lads mag" PC magazine? That proclamed Carmeggedon the greatest game ever and reviewed CS:CZ 3 times? None of which being the final release?
Hahahahahahaha. Oh god, I can't believe it.. I was certain that PC Z would give it a low score, but that low? Wow.. I can't wait for someone to try and argue the point about the community. I've always said it was one of the worst aspects of this game.. but hey, nice wake up call for KK, dont you think?
EDIT: What we all think about NC, as it compares to WoW and CoH etc is totally irrelevant. Sometimes I think we're too close to see this game for what it really is, and when you consider that anyone reading PC Z / PC G is going to (rightly) assume that the reviewer is objective (not saying they are or they aren't in the given reviews), it's easy for them to see that the others, even Planetside, are considered "better games" by the press and by assoc. - the pc gaming community.
And they say no publicity is bad publicity..
Hahahahahahaha. Oh god, I can't believe it.. I was certain that PC Z would give it a low score, but that low? Wow.. I can't wait for someone to try and argue the point about the community. I've always said it was one of the worst aspects of this game.. but hey, nice wake up call for KK, dont you think?
Every MMORPG has identical levels of ignorant people steaming around attempting to cause grief, but their populations are far larger and so the effects of it all seem very diluted.
I suppose some expect the future, despite the total destruction of society as we know it, to be huggy-feely.
Every MMORPG has identical levels of ignorant people steaming around attempting to cause grief, but their populations are far larger and so the effects of it all seem very diluted.
I suppose some expect the future, despite the total destruction of society as we know it, to be huggy-feely.
Perhaps, but there are many varieties of a-holes, and NC has the worst IMHO. Besides, NC also gives you the widest variety of tools to grief with, for the least ammount of come-back. Actually, no, forget that - I believe the level of f***tards in a community is directly proportional to the PvP functionality of a game.. and as it has been said before, NC is all about PvP..
Perhaps, but there are many varieties of a-holes, and NC has the worst IMHO. Besides, NC also gives you the widest variety of tools to grief with, for the least ammount of come-back. Actually, no, forget that - I believe the level of f***tards in a community is directly proportional to the PvP functionality of a game.. and as it has been said before, NC is all about PvP..
Heh, played any other MMORPGs? It's surprisingly easy to be just as annoying, if not more. ;)
Every single one of them has people who follow the same pattern of "Strike-kiddie" personalities.
that comment is nothing but slander.
Well look on the bright side.. this reviewer isn't attacking the game, more the people he met.
After reading that quote tho, i was holding my breath for the "musta played on <insert least favourite server> then" trolls.
he must have had some bad luck, the other NC2 reviews seemed to say the population of nc was a main positive.
im still of the opinion that no reviewer really knows how to review a mmorpg, they review it as if it was a single player game- so the ones with more single player content get the best reviews. what do you think the chances of any of these reviews actually playing a high level account and taking part in any sort of pvp?
Neocron 2: Beyond Dome of York
Paul Presley's eyes are burning with a twisted vision of the future
People will play anything - its official.
No matter how bad the game, how appalling the implementation, how atrocious the development, how buggy the code, how superior the alternatives - some people will happily sit down and sumbit themselves to any old shit, come back for more and pay t'mill owner f'privilege.
Masochists, the lot of them.
There are no two ways about this: Neocron 2 (and i'm still not sure why I fully understand why this is being billed as a sequel since it's essentially the same game that was released in 2002) is almost criminally bad.
When it was first released, this tale of life in the 28th century, a life of mutants, cyberpunks, sex and violence was at least different to anything else out there. We'd certainly never seen a MMOG with an in-game porno district and, with the exception of The Red Light World (see issue 147) we still havent.
Not exactly a badge neocron can wear with pride and now, well it should just hang its head in shame.
Where to start? The interface is a mess. You can't even resize the windows - ironically, the first incarnation's menu system was actually a lot neater. The content is frequently broken, bugged or so hideously under-explained that you almost never have any clue what you should be doing.
The graphics are, for this day and age, a joke, despite supposedly having undergone an enhancement (althought i'd defy anyone to tell the difference beyond the odd texture here and there). The new city area (Dome of York) is to all intents a mere retread of the original city, just with shabbier social values. It doesnt add anything significant to the neocron experience, other than to spread the already thin numbers of people that have bafflingly decided to commit themselves to the game over an even larger area - thus reducing further chances of actually meeting another player.
Social Outcasts
Not that you'd really want to meet another neocron player. Based on the several weeks running around this hell on virtual earth. I can say they are, to a man, the most obnoxious, foul-mouthed,unhelpful, bitter, spiteful,unpleasant and insular MMOG players I've ever had to encounter.
I'd love to put it down to a couple of one-off encounters, but for over two weeks I never once had an enquiry answered in a useful manner or managed to find anyone to team up with, instead being barraged by abuse, taunts and hostility simply for being a newbie. Honestly they are worse than the Young Conservatives.
I wish I could find something redeeming to say, some reason to recommend giving Neocron 2 a try. Unfortunatley I can only sit here and resent the fact it exists. This is because there's a staggeringly good William Gibson-esque, Deus Ex-ish cyberpunk MMOG waiting to happen and while Neocron continues to pollute the genre with its presence, it's unlikely to encourage anyone else to want to give it a try.
Why anyone continues to play this day is a complete mystery.
A mystery wrapped in riddle, surrounded by an enigma, guarded by starved rottweilers with bags of angry wasps strapped to their genitals.
Avoid this like the plague.
24%
+ Nice concept
- Awful implementation
- Badly ageing engine
- Lack of variety
- Buggy as hell
- Extremely unfriendly players
Maester Seymour
23-04-05, 19:03
Don't see the INT release bringing many new players from the UK now.. Both PC Gamer and PC Zone have both given NC a bad review now.. i don't see many people that are gonna even try it after reading them tbh.
Well, what can I say, if I'm totally honest, that's a pretty honest reveiw. He even mentions the interface, which alot of us have bitched and moaned about for a long time now. The statement that everyone who plays it is an arsehole is a bit off, but its almost accurate. The fact is, people read these reviews, and they listen to them, if you think this isn't goint to effect any sales on int release then you are the ones that are delusional.
enigma_b17
23-04-05, 19:20
24% mother of holy dear jesus thats bad. A little overboard i think sounds like some1 got rezz killed :o
I can't stop thinking that the end of NC is nigh
alot of bad press and problems these days(months(years :rolleyes: )), and there is no inidcation anywhere that it will be saved in anyway.
Neocron 2: Beyond Dome of York
Paul Presley's eyes are burning with a twisted vision of the future
People will play anything - its official.
No matter how bad the game, how appalling the implementation, how atrocious the development, how buggy the code, how superior the alternatives - some people will happily sit down and sumbit themselves to any old shit, come back for more and pay t'mill owner f'privilege.
Masochists, the lot of them.
There are no two ways about this: Neocron 2 (and i'm still not sure why I fully understand why this is being billed as a sequel since it's essentially the same game that was released in 2002) is almost criminally bad.
When it was first released, this tale of life in the 28th century, a life of mutants, cyberpunks, sex and violence was at least different to anything else out there. We'd certainly never seen a MMOG with an in-game porno district and, with the exception of The Red Light World (see issue 147) we still havent.
Not exactly a badge neocron can wear with pride and now, well it should just hang its head in shame.
Where to start? The interface is a mess. You can't even resize the windows - ironically, the first incarnation's menu system was actually a lot neater. The content is frequently broken, bugged or so hideously under-explained that you almost never have any clue what you should be doing.
The graphics are, for this day and age, a joke, despite supposedly having undergone an enhancement (althought i'd defy anyone to tell the difference beyond the odd texture here and there). The new city area (Dome of York) is to all intents a mere retread of the original city, just with shabbier social values. It doesnt add anything significant to the neocron experience, other than to spread the already thin numbers of people that have bafflingly decided to commit themselves to the game over an even larger area - thus reducing further chances of actually meeting another player.
Social Outcasts
Not that you'd really want to meet another neocron player. Based on the several weeks running around this hell on virtual earth. I can say they are, to a man, the most obnoxious, foul-mouthed,unhelpful, bitter, spiteful,unpleasant and insular MMOG players I've ever had to encounter.
I'd love to put it down to a couple of one-off encounters, but for over two weeks I never once had an enquiry answered in a useful manner or managed to find anyone to team up with, instead being barraged by abuse, taunts and hostility simply for being a newbie. Honestly they are worse than the Young Conservatives.
I wish I could find something redeeming to say, some reason to recommend giving Neocron 2 a try. Unfortunatley I can only sit here and resent the fact it exists. This is because there's a staggeringly good William Gibson-esque, Deus Ex-ish cyberpunk MMOG waiting to happen and while Neocron continues to pollute the genre with its presence, it's unlikely to encourage anyone else to want to give it a try.
Why anyone continues to play this day is a complete mystery.
A mystery wrapped in riddle, surrounded by an enigma, guarded by starved rottweilers with bags of angry wasps strapped to their genitals.
Avoid this like the plague.
24%
+ Nice concept
- Awful implementation
- Badly ageing engine
- Lack of variety
- Buggy as hell
- Extremely unfriendly players
I enjoyed that. A good read if i do say so myself. All valids points.
To me this just sounds like some guy had a bad experience with NC1 and is still bitter about it. The review is not even of decent length and actually is more of a personal opinion rather than a review of the game.
enigma_b17
23-04-05, 19:35
just thinking about it there, PCZONE is like one of the most read computer mags in uk, ireland and other parts of europe, with that review, nc2 is screwed
He started a new game in DoY, got lost and confused, read the bitching on OOC and left. Thats an awful lot of people's entire experience of the game, and needs ot be reviewed.
Heavyporker
23-04-05, 19:48
Well... phew.
What a roaster.
I'd disagree with something in each paragraph, but that's a lot of vitriol to overcome.
And I'm shocked - he spent "several weeks" but found nothing and no one decent in the game - oh, wait, he took his LE out?
OOC talk in Help channel aside, it IS an excellent way for newbies to come for help. People on the street, more likely than not, will stop and give some help if you ask for it (nicely)
I cannot, just cannot, dispute the extreme bugginess (reinstalled NC2 twice now, and I get massive rates of fataling, crashing, and blue-screening, not to mention the gfx butchery), and the RPOS needs work - BUT he forgets there are resizable windows (local list, chat window, gogo/cab windows). Whatever happened to the NC1 rpos mods? :(
I'll agree, though, that the Red Light district has been tamed... no Screaming Horse or Black Dragon Thugs (one keeps spawning) in pepper park sec-2, and you'll see some life there again other than the lewd runner that'll settle for shaking bikini babes (hey, they're great, but seriously, where's the nipples and pussy?).
NC2 character models do look distinctly underwhelming compared to NC1 models. And the "water" in the wastelands isn't really that spectacular, especially when you remember that water in the mainsewer, in Gaya Mines, in Worm Tunnels, ad nauseum, HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED TO GO ALONG.
I must say, The Dome *is* distinctly different from Neocron City. It's been several months now (years in NC time), so, admittedly, it's a bit empty in the Dome (even beggars and mutants would be walking in the streets in the Dome by now). BUT... I manage to run into plenty of other runners, thank you. Experience letting me know where to find others, yes, but still - over 2+ weeks, even a newbie with 0/0 agl/ath WOULD have run into like 100 different runners if he stepped out of his starter apartment, dammit.
just thinking about it there, PCZONE is like one of the most read computer mags in uk, ireland and other parts of europe, with that review, nc2 is screwed
The boys on Boards.ie flamed this game along time ago. Alot of the MMORPG players wont touch it. With the ripple effect from it not much of the gaming communinty at large will go near it.
Dr Strange
23-04-05, 20:00
I cannot, just cannot, dispute the extreme bugginess (reinstalled NC2 twice now, and I get massive rates of fataling, crashing, and blue-screening, not to mention the gfx butchery), and the RPOS needs work - BUT he forgets there are resizable windows (local list, chat window, gogo/cab windows). Whatever happened to the NC1 rpos mods? :(
I'll agree, though, that the Red Light district has been tamed... no Screaming Horse or Black Dragon Thugs (one keeps spawning) in pepper park sec-2, and you'll see some life there again other than the lewd runner that'll settle for shaking bikini babes (hey, they're great, but seriously, where's the nipples and pussy?).
I must say, The Dome *is* distinctly different from Neocron City. It's been several months now (years in NC time), so, admittedly, it's a bit empty in the Dome (even beggars and mutants would be walking in the streets in the Dome by now). BUT... I manage to run into plenty of other runners, thank you. Experience letting me know where to find others, yes, but still - over 2+ weeks, even a newbie with 0/0 agl/ath WOULD have run into like 100 different runners if he stepped out of his starter apartment, dammit.
The RPO's are horrible. I never played NC1 but even I love that HUD compared to NC2's HUD. As for resizing, how do you resize the gogo/cab windows? You can drag them places like any other hud but they aren't sizeable like the chat hud. And even then the chat hud is only expandable longways and not height.
Do we even need to comment on the "toning down" of the game? See; all threads related to RoC Name Violations, nuff said.
But the 2+ week thing does not apply to the Dome. I'd say in 2 weeks, with an average of 4 hours a day, say 30-60 minutes of "walk time" through the Dome, you might run into 10-20 people. And even then you'd need to be in the more populated faction areas (TG/Crahn). Do you think he'd meet that many people in the TS sector and areas near it? Hell I'm BD and when I see a new face in the BD area I stop and say hi, cause ya just don't see them all that often. Yet when I log on a friends alt who's pro city or cm and go into NC city, you find alot more people in the Plazas (whens the last time you saw someone in "City Center"?)
Interesting read. I would say of the two recent UK reviews that they are both valid, one (pggamer) from a returning player who knows about pvp and the other (pczone) from a newbie angle. Together they paint a damning picture of what is left of the game, and in many ways validate a lot of our concerns here on the forums.
Neocron has moved too slow, and its still moving too slow, the result of which is magazines reviewing it before you have patched your 'newb friendly' additions to the game. Who's fault is that? Well I'll leave it to you to decide.
Meanwhile, as I said before, we just have to enjoy the game for what it is at the moment, and not expect any changes or population improvements, because if they come they will be a bonus.
i think the review wasnt far off the mark sadly, but ive had a idea to rectifiy the situation which can be done in two different ways.
first: Contact Paul Presley and as a community ask him to come back to the game for a couple more weeks, but this time give him a guided tour (comeption on forum or vote to decide the tour manager). Show him everything.. every type of lvling area/mob... show him social places (might be a good idea for a little mock play with other members of the community) and role play with him a little. Then comes in the thirst quenchers... set up a OP fight between two clans ofwhich he can spectate / join in even. Show him a fight night where the community comes together for a evening socailly while being entertained and having fun competing. Once the 'tour manager' gets on his good side (real chummy) explain that a porportion of the population is wankers but then it same withany other game.. only they larger so the pricks can go unnoticed. Basicully give him the red carpet treatment but not to false.
Second: same as the first idea but this is where KK (if they want to try and help themselves) can give the reviewer (and set up this system for all reveiws) a near capped charatcer on a account so they can physically experience what the game is like.. being a n00b in Neocron = crap... the oppertunites open up when you are higher. Dont worry KK however it wouldnt be a account for the reviewer to keep just for say 1-3 weeks then u can terminate it knowing that by doing that u have given urselves the best chance of sucess.
Just a idea anyhow.
the things he said about the game were true, and if that was all there was to the game he'd be right.. but id bet anything he never got far enough into this game to realize why people do play it.
I wish I could find something redeeming to say, some reason to recommend giving Neocron 2 a try.that right there tells me he has not gone done anything in this game but run around as a newbie killing rats.
we agree because he makes valid points, but neocron is game that DOES have "redeeming qualities" that no reviewer sees. Should games make being a newbie really fun and just screw the high level enjoyment just to make reviewers who play the game for 3 days happy ?? (cough like WOW)
i dont know who he met, but when i recently made a new char and was just walking around so many people asked me if I needed any help, pokes, cst etc thinking i was a brand new player. and when i have help open i see people answering questions, helping new players, and often I do as well.
a review that may cover some valid points but bases the entire rating on 1% of the game, is not a valid review. and i dont think magazines should hurt the reputation of games if there not going to fully play them. AND some of that review is really insulting to me.
i think the review wasnt far off the mark sadly, but ive had a idea to rectifiy the situation which can be done in two different ways.
first: Contact Paul Presley and as a community ask him to come back to the game for a couple more weeks, but this time give him a guided tour (comeption on forum or vote to decide the tour manager). Show him everything.. every type of lvling area/mob... show him social places (might be a good idea for a little mock play with other members of the community) and role play with him a little. Then comes in the thirst quenchers... set up a OP fight between two clans ofwhich he can spectate / join in even. Show him a fight night where the community comes together for a evening socailly while being entertained and having fun competing. Once the 'tour manager' gets on his good side (real chummy) explain that a porportion of the population is wankers but then it same withany other game.. only they larger so the pricks can go unnoticed. Basicully give him the red carpet treatment but not to false.
Second: same as the first idea but this is where KK (if they want to try and help themselves) can give the reviewer (and set up this system for all reveiws) a near capped charatcer on a account so they can physically experience what the game is like.. being a n00b in Neocron = crap... the oppertunites open up when you are higher. Dont worry KK however it wouldnt be a account for the reviewer to keep just for say 1-3 weeks then u can terminate it knowing that by doing that u have given urselves the best chance of sucess.
Just a idea anyhow.
Now that would be a bad idea, he's reviewing the game for his readers, to give them an idea of what they will get if they play the game, not what they would get if the community tried to sugarcoat the game or KK gave them god mode.
The problem with NC is very simple, for far too long KK have a) listened to the wrong people. b) ignored a hell of a lot of good ideas. c) totally gone against the communitys wishes and implimented some terrible ideas (removal of safe zones, KK was told it would bring in major ganking problems, they didnt listen, again).
Now NC has had two reviews, both have been damning, KK have lost the game, if they were planning on people who read the game magazines to go "wow a new game, lets get it!" they had better change their plans. 57% they might have gotten away with, 24% and a "dont go near" I'm pretty sure is a taste of how many people will now rush out to get this game.
Fact is KK should have been concentrating on fixing this game, adding new content, fixing old content :rolleyes: and well, lots of stuff. Now the people who have patiently waited for IR, for the servers to get HUNDREDS of new people, your out of luck, maybe you'll get 20, and that might be just the people that see a pretty box and dont read the magazine.
Truth of the matter is that a game that gets a review like that is almost certainly dead, without a major company behind you (like E.A.) who can afford to have one or two flops, your screwed, even Eidos went tits up, and they make Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, Champ Manager and other games which make a fortune.
Of course NC will have its *hard core* players who will be there till the day the servers go down, and maybe they wont go down, maybe KK will make a huge sucess in Aisa and subsidise your ones. International release, too little too late, NC2? Huge dissapointment for the people who waited 2+ years for the "Free Expansion".
As for other communities having dicks, hell yeah, all do, they also have lots of GM's monitoring the chat channels, other MMORPG's also dont have a global chat where enemies can chat to each other (AO - you choose Clan, you cant openly talk to Omni, FFXI, no global chat etc..) so they dont have all the bitching, whining, swearing, and if they did, they would be handing out temp bans in seconds, or even full bans. Still, swearing in OOC/Trade/Whatever seems to be a part of NC life, so hard to change it now, it defines the game, and the review defines the game as something no one should buy, and I totally agree with that assesment.
Let's face it, no amount of finished content or fixed bugs is going to stop a reviewer who's had his arse kicked solid for two weeks from giving us a bad review score. No one ever said this game was for pussies. Look as hard as you like and you won't find an elf anywhere.
N
Heavyporker
23-04-05, 21:10
to __
Dr strange.... click on the little \_/ on the chat/gogo/cab window and pull vertically. This affects the height of the window.
Trust me, it works. I've had my chat window alll the way to the top from bottom, I've made my gogo/cab window large enough so I don't have to scroll at all to see the whole contents.
-----------------------
Anyways, I'm having a hard time believing the 24% rating and the searingly negative fulmination of this reviewer. Frankly,I'm getting an inkling of an idea that I might take up trials to other games, maybe try to act as an ambassador to Neocron.
Lol I laugh my ass off :lol: :lol:
Extremely unfriendly players? 8|
Buggy as hell ? 8|
The graphics are a joke 8|
MUHAHAHA! FINALLY THE TRUTH!!
Heavyporker
23-04-05, 22:04
Not to incite your rage, Nidhogg, but there's a rather uncomfortably large grain (boulder-size, one might say) of truth in the review.
Not to incite your rage, Nidhogg, but there's a rather uncomfortably large grain (boulder-size, one might say) of truth in the review.
Its all True, no doubt about it ;)
well... its all pretty accurate to me, i'm afraid
At least that is, how i see a newbie perspective starting his ways in NC2. Of course, it may look a little different after a while, but at the beggining i bet all people see are bugs, syncs, crashes, lack of content, "unfriendly" community and a game developers who blame all those problems onto people computers, isp's etc.
So yeah, i agree. My review (as a new nc player) would probably look similiar to this one.
The last time they changed the default modes on the chat channels, they rigged it so that the following custom channels are on by default: zone, alliance, help, and ooc.
At the time, I said that I wished that they would have made faction one of the default channels. But as this review reminds us, my dear god OOC needs to not be on by default. OOC is where all the worst toxic verbal pollution in this game gets dumped. OOC isn't so much a place you go to as a place you get sentenced to.
Not to incite your rage, Nidhogg, but there's a rather uncomfortably large grain (boulder-size, one might say) of truth in the review.
Yes there is truth there, Boulder size? I don't think so.
More like pebble size if we're talking about how much information the review should have. It's missed out so much that should be in a review to give a good all round balanced detailing of a game.
At the end of the day a reviewer is never going to give a MMORPG a full working over because they'd much rather move onto the next high profile game that they can get their hands on rather than play a game that i they did actually enjoy they'd have to start paying money for.
Thanks Evs.
As for the review -
1) It's very short which isn't surprising considering. I expect it'll be in their quick roundup section that is usually only read for it's funny flame-based reviews (like this one). This may save KK from too much damage as it's not somewhere people look when searching for a game to buy.
2) The points about the game itself are valid, if rather venomously expressed. That's the risk you take with reviews though especially in a magazine that's entertaining to read (PCZ>>>>>PCG so much it's not funny).
3) The points about the players are a crock IMO. I haven't played a lot lately but I simply don't believe he couldn't get help or a team anywhere. I've seen some real human-dregs playing NC in my time and even they got help and support so I afraid I have to assume he's lying. I'd also add that his description reminds me a LOT of EVE in beta and I'm reliably informed that it's now nothing like that so these things can change even if they are true. Commenting on it in this way (ie heavily biased) in a review like this just looks makes the writer look stupid and inexperienced.
4) Tbh it's what I expected. PCZ is generally pretty accurate in it's reviews IME. More so at least than any other physically published magazine I've known since the early 80s. That said if something falls below a certain level they will entertain themselves and their readers by giving it a good roasting. NC2 fell below that level by a long way so this was inevitable really.
5) It's a shame he disregarded the few additions/improvements in NC2 - not even a quick list or anything. I don't agree with his comments on the design of the Dome at all even though there are other aspects of it I think were badly handled.
Social-Zero
23-04-05, 22:56
gogo Nidhogg ranger!
Protecting the game from terrible evil again? Of course, it's your job.
Still, it is what it is and it's not pretty.
I warned ya'll in closed beta...
but I was looking way at things too negative wasn't I, I was wrong! The game ruled and was amazing blahblahblah
You had each and every percent of that 24 coming your way KK.
Enjoy them as much as your whole community who seems to agree with this reviewer. Doesn't that say a lot about the direction you went? The wrong one? huh?
All > paul presley
How many times did he play nc2? 1 day ? 2 days ? Its a MMO ffs, u cant judge it liek that.
Lol, he hates you more than he hates the game. I'm glad you agree with him. :p
N
Lol, he hates you more than he hates the game. I'm glad you agree with him. :p
N
Are you saying you don't play anymore Niddy?
Heavyporker
23-04-05, 23:10
I will out and out agree that for a newbie, OOC shouldn't be default, and faction should be. Mmm, mmm. IN fact, I'll start a thread poll about that. See if that doesn't send a flare across KK's bow.
Let's face it, no amount of finished content or fixed bugs is going to stop a reviewer who's had his arse kicked solid for two weeks from giving us a bad review score. No one ever said this game was for pussies. Look as hard as you like and you won't find an elf anywhere.
N
I have noticed you have a strange fetish recently with elves, so I'm guessing you are grinding an axe with WoW. You could point out that FFXI (500k pop) WoW (god knows pop) Lineage 2 (lots pop) all have elves in one form or another and are hugely popular, so maybe you should stop knocking what is actually working?
I also think calling a member of the press a pussy, as an official representative of KK on these forums != good idea.
Also, there is unfinished content/features/etc.. missing from NC1 Beta, so 3 years, still not there. FFXI, again much larger (2 expansions so far, taking up 7 gig on my drive) was released a while after NC1, and apart from a few problems here and there (ddos past few weeks) is extremly smooth and adding content constantly.
Getting his arse kicked? So he trashes the game? So what do you think is going to happen to any new customers? They will go "OMFG THIS IS SO FOOKIN GOOD I'M GUNNA GET ALL MY MATES TO PLAY!!"? No, they will say "wow, 24% was kind". Pretty much every MMORPG has major problems when they first come out, hell some dont even make it out, but of those that do, they tend to fix the problems, NC hasnt, as has been pointed out for god knows how long, so taking the offensive against a guy doing his job and giving NC a score he believes is accurate reflection of his gaming time, is wrong, you should infact be saying "we will address every point made by the reviewers with the next patch which will be delivered on monday!". Thats right, i forgot, NC doesnt patch much does it :rolleyes:
I think, Neocron has long relied upon it's status as a "MMORPG that doesn’t have goblins and pointy hats" to try and attract players, and in the early days, that worked. There still aren't many released games that fall in to that category, but I think it's about time we stopped flogging that dead horse. There are games, with elves and +2 potions of beardiness, that are good enough, polished enough and pretty enough to transcend their genre and appeal to anyone with a genuine interest in enjoying a new game.
Two years ago, there was a game with a unique angle on the traditional MMORPG. That game had promise, and it was treated as such by the press. Now, there is a game with a unique angle and largely unfulfilled promise. What ever you think of the reviews, you can't fault the reviewers for picking up on it :(
sanityislost
23-04-05, 23:59
[ edited ]
Credit where credit is due -
The game is slated for it's aggresive community and what's KK's response? Call the reviewer a pussy.
I LOVE IT!
In all seriousness I do. It's exactly that kind of personal reaction the big MMOs can't offer and IMO it's why most of us still care about what happens to NC.
You can't see Carmack posting on his blog that someone is a pussy for only giving Doom 3 99% can you?
If I were KK I'd put that review in their ads with the words "No one ever said this game was for pussies" in a bold watermark behind it. If they had any ads that is.
gogo Nidhogg ranger!
ROFLMAO just spilled my coffee on myself
Credit where credit is due -
The game is slated for it's aggresive community and what's KK's response? Call the reviewer a pussy.
I LOVE IT!
In all seriousness I do. It's exactly that kind of personal reaction the big MMOs can't offer and IMO it's why most of us still care about what happens to NC.
You can't see Carmack posting on his blog that someone is a pussy for only giving Doom 3 99% can you?
If I were KK I'd put that review in their ads with the words "No one ever said this game was for pussies" in a bold watermark behind it. If they had any ads that is.
Thats cause Carmack knows people will buy his game. He Doesnt need to say anything cause the money going into his pocket says it all.
Thats cause Carmack knows people will buy his game. He Doesnt need to say anything cause the money going into his pocket says it all.
OK pick a less successful name then - can you see Romero doing it?
Thats right, i forgot, NC doesnt patch much does it :rolleyes:
Too true. 3 patches since 21st/22nd Dec 2004, and one of them was a hotfix with no new content. It is beyond ridiculous. If they were big patches, that might make it a little less ridiculous (but not much less at all, 3 patches in 4 months is beyond absurd). But the patch notes for ONE WoW patch (which come out more often than once every two months) look like every NC2 patch so far put together with some added on.
Seriously, if Prezzer (as he's known to ZONE readers) had played the game for several months before reviewing it, he may have seen the nicer side to the community, thats true. But his comments on the community would have simply been replaced by equally bad comments on a game in which a content patch is rarer than seeing a runner running around with pink pants on from a bug that was resolved months ago, and a development team who refuse to listen to the community, and whom go silent for entire months at a time (referring to how it was before Nid was appointed)
Whichever way the game is looked at there are bad sides. NC2 is still great fun, at least for me, but the flaws with it are far too many for a reviewer to look past when considering a score.
Dribble Joy
24-04-05, 00:38
Too true. 3 patches since 21st/22nd Dec 2004, and one of them was a hotfix with no new content. It is beyond ridiculous. If they were big patches, that might make it a little less ridiculous (but not much less at all, 3 patches in 4 months is beyond absurd).
I must be sounding like a broken record or a completely brainwashed KK fanboi by now.
KK have repeatedly stated that they have intentionally not released anything in the last few months as they are working on the int release.
I must be sounding like a broken record or a completely brainwashed KK fanboi by now.
KK have repeatedly stated that they have intentionally not released anything in the last few months as they are working on the int release.
Damn fanboi ;)
I must be sounding like a broken record or a completely brainwashed KK fanboi by now.
KK have repeatedly stated that they have intentionally not released anything in the last few months as they are working on the int release.
Well lets look at how sensible a decision that was shall we.
Lets take a look at what that decision has resulted in. The two biggest UK Gaming mags reviewing NC2 in the state it is in, which is quite poor tbh. Oh, and the community being disheartened and people being driven away due to absolutely zero new content. Smart move? I think not.
I wonder, did Final Fantasy XI stop patching the game in the four month run up to either of its expansion packs? Did Blizzard stop patching the US version of World of Warcraft in the runup to European release? Is it likely in the future that another MMO will be left standing still for several months whilst the developers work on a new release or expansion? No, its not, and no they didnt.
The lack of content patches is KK's fault. Thus, the reviewers playing the game as it is now is KK's fault. The decision to stop patches was a bad one, an incredibly bad one. And therefore, any comments in a review about NC2 being rarely updated would have been completely justified. And Im sure if someone wrote into the reviewer in question and said "Thats unfair. We announced to the community that we wouldnt be patching for four months because we have a release coming up which we want to work on!" they would have been laughed out of the office/place of work.
The upcoming patch is a doozy as it will encompass all of the little sneak peeks we've been dropping in the last few months. I'd say that it's the biggest content change we've ever had (after DoY itself of course). There's some genuinely surprising stuff in there...
N
The upcoming patch is a doozy as it will encompass all of the little sneak peeks we've been dropping in the last few months. I'd say that it's the biggest content change we've ever had (after DoY itself of course). There's some genuinely surprising stuff in there...
N
that sure makes me feel better :) i hope you're not exaggerating, and also that upcoming means less then 5 years away :p
The upcoming patch is a doozy as it will encompass all of the little sneak peeks we've been dropping in the last few months. I'd say that it's the biggest content change we've ever had (after DoY itself of course). There's some genuinely surprising stuff in there...
N
That I'm glad to hear. Hopefully it'll get here this week, then I can be happy :)
Hopefully it will be worth the wait, from what I've read at least some of it will be. Whilst it cannot excuse the lack of patches, it could certainly go a long way to making me forget about them. That is of course, if its all its being hyped up to be.
We shall see :)
The upcoming patch is a doozy as it will encompass all of the little sneak peeks we've been dropping in the last few months. I'd say that it's the biggest content change we've ever had (after DoY itself of course). There's some genuinely surprising stuff in there...
N
Its gonna be a shock when half of it goes tits up and theres a hotfix again
eww, it's evs.
[insert KK sucks statement]
When is this new patch coming out? I can't believe i just wasted 30some bucks on this garbage. May God forgive me.
Now that would be a bad idea, he's reviewing the game for his readers, to give them an idea of what they will get if they play the game, not what they would get if the community tried to sugarcoat the game or KK gave them god mode.
The problem with NC is very simple, for far too long KK have a) listened to the wrong people. b) ignored a hell of a lot of good ideas. c) totally gone against the communitys wishes and implimented some terrible ideas (removal of safe zones, KK was told it would bring in major ganking problems, they didnt listen, again).
Now NC has had two reviews, both have been damning, KK have lost the game, if they were planning on people who read the game magazines to go "wow a new game, lets get it!" they had better change their plans. 57% they might have gotten away with, 24% and a "dont go near" I'm pretty sure is a taste of how many people will now rush out to get this game.
Fact is KK should have been concentrating on fixing this game, adding new content, fixing old content :rolleyes: and well, lots of stuff. Now the people who have patiently waited for IR, for the servers to get HUNDREDS of new people, your out of luck, maybe you'll get 20, and that might be just the people that see a pretty box and dont read the magazine.
Truth of the matter is that a game that gets a review like that is almost certainly dead, without a major company behind you (like E.A.) who can afford to have one or two flops, your screwed, even Eidos went tits up, and they make Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, Champ Manager and other games which make a fortune.
Of course NC will have its *hard core* players who will be there till the day the servers go down, and maybe they wont go down, maybe KK will make a huge sucess in Aisa and subsidise your ones. International release, too little too late, NC2? Huge dissapointment for the people who waited 2+ years for the "Free Expansion".
As for other communities having dicks, hell yeah, all do, they also have lots of GM's monitoring the chat channels, other MMORPG's also dont have a global chat where enemies can chat to each other (AO - you choose Clan, you cant openly talk to Omni, FFXI, no global chat etc..) so they dont have all the bitching, whining, swearing, and if they did, they would be handing out temp bans in seconds, or even full bans. Still, swearing in OOC/Trade/Whatever seems to be a part of NC life, so hard to change it now, it defines the game, and the review defines the game as something no one should buy, and I totally agree with that assesment.
Lexxuk cause i have had alot of respect for u man i am willing to agree my idea was a bit silly but i only suggested it as no one else tryed to come up with a solution... that review along with the others like it will take (i belive) a massive toll on the game. Suger coating (as u put it) the game isnt the best solution and i was being hasty when i suggested it, but being a ex Neocron lover i still want to try and help out where i can, i thourght for a short space of time this could be a idea.. not just to solve the reviewing situation.. though if u look at me second plan where KK give them a high lvl char to try (as peeps say its a mmorpg... u need to play it for a long time... that ok u need to expericnceing working from the bottom up.. (but we all know just to spam certain areas with a ppu for a few days to sort that)... but also to give a full review in my opiunion u have to see what to finished result in the game is.. and i belive thats a high lvl/capped char which takes part in things like OP fights...fight nights (like u event on uranus if u remeber) to enjoy the rush of the game. But also the point of the first idea i came with (point 1) was that it might bring thecommunity closer together to help save the game from what seems extintion..
anyway no harm was inteneded.
Im happy to know that all the players that WONT buy the game because of the review, will be able to NOT experiance this great patch....
in the name of all things holy i hope yu guys take heed at BOTH of the bad reviews that yu have gotten, i dont want to be a naysayer, but its true... every bit of it, alot of what keeps ppl here is their guilds... if their clans wernt here then they wouldnt be here...
no patch because of the international release is a LAME excuse, we all know it.
content patch and huge game play changes?
i SOOOO hope this has been tested on the test server, and no i dont mean by yur own staff... cos it is evident that yu guys wouldnt know balance if it walked into yur offices and shook yu by the hand and said
"hi im Mr Game Balance"
The upcoming patch is a doozy as it will encompass all of the little sneak peeks we've been dropping in the last few months. I'd say that it's the biggest content change we've ever had (after DoY itself of course). There's some genuinely surprising stuff in there...
N
ETA on said patch somewhere around 2006-7 ? I agree with comie on testing it . I really dont wanna turn green again or have a ear sticking out of my back and hehe at the game balance comment. Maybe this patch will redeem the game and pull it out of the gutter im hoping. Not many people have much good to say about it these days.
Dr Strange
24-04-05, 06:17
to __
Dr strange.... click on the little \_/ on the chat/gogo/cab window and pull vertically. This affects the height of the window.
Trust me, it works. I've had my chat window alll the way to the top from bottom, I've made my gogo/cab window large enough so I don't have to scroll at all to see the whole contents.
I know the chat window can be stretch vertically, my point was it could be moved in height, downwards (i.e. you can't shrink it anymore than its default height, which is a tad big for my tastes).
But I'll try that for the GoGo/Cabs
Heavyporker
24-04-05, 06:30
Well, you *DO* have the option of making the local list/chat window disappear entirely.
It's the little sideways \_/ to the leftmost of your screen - click that, your local list/ chat disappears. click it again, they'll come back.
I use it when I absolutely do not want to listen/talk to anything, no matter what the temptation.
im almost lost for words
its only been the promise of new content thats keeping my subscription going atm, but i become more and more disillusioned each day.
seriously, the reviewer might just be a pussy.. but to retort is such a way, could only suggest the truth hurts.
i started with the beta of nc2, got addicted, 4 months almost 8 hrs daily, let my subscription slide, 2 months later i decided to reactivate (talk of content and updates/fixes sucked me in).. a month later.. im still waiting on something, anything!
2 more months to go and this.. i was only just hanging on a thread to start with.. and like many was hoping the new international release and content would make the game feel like it was when it was flooded with beta trialers, but reviews like this will make that almost impossible..
Let's face it, no amount of finished content or fixed bugs is going to stop a reviewer who's had his arse kicked solid for two weeks from giving us a bad review score. No one ever said this game was for pussies. Look as hard as you like and you won't find an elf anywhere.
N Statements like these, dont particularly help. They sound pretty shallow to me. When you have too bad revews in UK, you may have a broken market there, but it's time to work harder and try conquering the rest of the world.
Grace periods are long past and work is a lot more now than it was 6 months before.
Things that you might look after?
1. Fix those syncs/fres/right mouse click bugs once and for all. Why is it so hard to do it? I made another post about those and gathered around 70 people experiencing the same as me, on a daily basis. sent a suport request on 19th of April, got an answer in return which I replied again and after that absolute silence. why? its already 5 whole days that have passed. why?
2. Something needs to be done with those that expess themselves in a bad manner. I hear complaints all the time.
3. You can't really expect one to stick with neocron for over a year to become a vet so he can judge the product right. It's first days impressions that matter and tells you to stay or leave from the game. This solution with this looong waited patch is in the right direction, but is already late....
And a question:
This guy that made the review, was undercover? he just went in, made a noob and started playing w/o anybody knowing he was a reporter from pcz? How Legal is that?
That review, though harsh and tinged with a pervasive whiny bitchitude had more truth than fiction.
For the record, I have never seen a noob question on HELP go unanswered.
That being said, I agree with many points of that whiny bitch's review, but I am STILL here playing. I am one of his "masochists". I feel I get taken advantage of as a customer of KK (re: paying for the friggin' patch to NC2; having to use Click2Pay, etc..), but I do see great effort on behalf of the GMs and other volunteers (yes, even Niddy :p ) to improve the game.
Cheers to Niddy for calling a spade a spade. Neocron is NOT for pussies. The noob experience is a bit harsh and unpleasant, but you know what? I had to get through it, so now all the other noobs have to. Suck it up bitches!
I do feel the improvement has taken too long and I anticipate the next patch.
Still here to take the beating,
Me
p.s. Elves SUCK! I'd rather [censored] my [censored] with a [censored] while eating [censored] on the ass-end of a [censored] than play WoW. ;)
Dr Strange
24-04-05, 08:29
That review, though harsh and tinged with a pervasive whiny bitchitude had more truth than fiction.
For the record, I have never seen a noob question on HELP go unanswered.
That being said, I agree with many points of that whiny bitch's review, but I am STILL here playing. I am one of his "masochists". I feel I get taken advantage of as a customer of KK (re: paying for the friggin' patch to NC2; having to use Click2Pay, etc..), but I do see great effort on behalf of the GMs and other volunteers (yes, even Niddy :p ) to improve the game.
Cheers to Niddy for calling a spade a spade. Neocron is NOT for pussies. The noob experience is a bit harsh and unpleasant, but you know what? I had to get through it, so now all the other noobs have to. Suck it up bitches!
I do feel the improvement has taken too long and I anticipate the next patch.
Still here to take the beating,
Me
p.s. Elves SUCK! I'd rather [censored] my [censored] with a [censored] while eating [censored] on the ass-end of a [censored] than play WoW. ;)
Things are vastly different now.
For one, while Nid and KK have their rights to their own opinions on other MMORPG's, it's kindly pointless to blast fantasy rpg's and "elves" when the vast majority of mmo's that are popular and actually make a profit worth noting, are in the fantasy genre.
And while I agree the game isn't for the light hearted, a KK employee calling a game reviewer of a PC magazine a pussy is simply bad form. I mean what does that say about KK, let alone Nid? He took the first review that scored low rather harsh. Now he's simply resorting to personal attacks (yes, you related the reviewer a pussy who gives up easy). What kind of company would employee a "Community Liason" who publically downtalks a major magazine publication for one of their largest demographics?
If I was new to NC2 at the moment, I'd seriously, seriously, consider cancelling my subscription. Between the looming Internation Release which I honestly don't think is going to happen, lack of communication, and public bashing of a journalist....You really have to wonder, "is the juice worth the squeeze?" I love the game, but at times like this when it's own employee's lash out I think we're selling our souls to the devil (if I believed in one that is)
Things are vastly different now.
For one, while Nid and KK have their rights to their own opinions on other MMORPG's, it's kindly pointless to blast fantasy rpg's and "elves" when the vast majority of mmo's that are popular and actually make a profit worth noting, are in the fantasy genre.
And while I agree the game isn't for the light hearted, a KK employee calling a game reviewer of a PC magazine a pussy is simply bad form. I mean what does that say about KK, let alone Nid? He took the first review that scored low rather harsh. Now he's simply resorting to personal attacks (yes, you related the reviewer a pussy who gives up easy). What kind of company would employee a "Community Liason" who publically downtalks a major magazine publication for one of their largest demographics?
If I was new to NC2 at the moment, I'd seriously, seriously, consider cancelling my subscription. Between the looming Internation Release which I honestly don't think is going to happen, lack of communication, and public bashing of a journalist....You really have to wonder, "is the juice worth the squeeze?" I love the game, but at times like this when it's own employee's lash out I think we're selling our souls to the devil (if I believed in one that is)
Well Nid represents the community and the writer flamed the community, so looks like Nid took it to heart a bit and flamed back :D Good form !
Dr Strange
24-04-05, 11:28
Well Nid represents the community and the writer flamed the community, so looks like Nid took it to heart a bit and flamed back :D Good form !
Maybe if the writer had been wrong about the community, yea Nid would be just in saying what he did.
But overall people have agreed; this writer was spot on, on his opinions of the games current state, and the overall community. Sure there are plenty of nice people playing the game currently, but for every nice person theres 3 more assholes ready to ruin your game experience. And sure you can spin it as Nid defending the community, but I think it speaks for itself when he has to stoop that low as an employee of KK, defending or not it's a losing battle to defend a community that's already some of the lowest scum on the planet. (And no the forums do not represent the entire community, only a small portion, I am including all ingame players not forum users, even though they do contribute to the problem).
It's really sad I mean, my god how much negative publicity does KK need to get a wake up call from years ago that said "hey yer shits broke fix it". From the almost dictorial crack down on player names to obtain the rating they preciously needed to release the game thats not yet released, to the public ostrization of one if not the bigger PC gaming magazines in Europe...
Dr Strange
24-04-05, 11:36
btw I rated this thread 5 Stars :)
Well, there are valid points in the review but mostly it's just pure bullshit.
Neocron 2: Beyond Dome of York
Paul Presley's eyes are burning with a twisted vision of the future
There are no two ways about this: Neocron 2 (and i'm still not sure why I fully understand why this is being billed as a sequel since it's essentially the same game that was released in 2002) is almost criminally bad.
This is one of the valid points, marketing the expansion as a sequel was an mistake. Naturally more content has been added since the orginal release but not quite enough for sequel title.
Where to start? The interface is a mess. You can't even resize the windows - ironically, the first incarnation's menu system was actually a lot neater. The content is frequently broken, bugged or so hideously under-explained that you almost never have any clue what you should be doing.
Well, the interface - some parts of it has degraded and some parts of it has improved , hopefully we'll get that alternative old GUI. Contect truly is broken occasinally, but that's mostly the brand new content. However just like he says, lots of stuff is often underexplained or not explained at all and well.... exotic-psi ring any bells?
The graphics ...
Wonder what this guy would say about WWII Online.... Looks like every game has to look like HL2 these days.
The new city area (Dome of York) It doesnt add anything significant to the neocron experience, other than to spread the already thin numbers of people that have bafflingly decided to commit themselves to the game over an even larger area - thus reducing further chances of actually meeting another player.
This guy obviously tried to play as an DOY-faction and for most of the parts, DOY is rather empty and the server populations are too low, valid point but just as the rest of his review, he exaggerates too much.
Social Outcasts
I can say they[Neocron players] are, to a man, the most obnoxious, foul-mouthed,unhelpful, bitter, spiteful,unpleasant and insular MMOG players I've ever had to encounter. I'd love to put it down to a couple of one-off encounters, but for over two weeks I never once had an enquiry answered in a useful manner or managed to find anyone to team up with, instead being barraged by abuse, taunts and hostility simply for being a newbie. Honestly they are worse than the Young Conservatives.
Well now this is just plain bullshit. Maybe he just met the most idiotic players of the game or maybe his 'questions' were like "Hey, you! Tell me where X is!", I don't know. When I meet a new player asking for help, I try to find time to help him/her out, and I know most of the people I've talked to, would do the same. Also, cursing is only an atmosphere addition :]
I wish I could find something redeeming to say, some reason to recommend giving Neocron 2 a try. Unfortunatley I can only sit here and resent the fact it exists. This is because there's a staggeringly good William Gibson-esque, Deus Ex-ish cyberpunk MMOG waiting to happen and while Neocron continues to pollute the genre with its presence, it's unlikely to encourage anyone else to want to give it a try.
Woke up on the wrong foot? "Sorry dear, I've got a headache"?
No matter how bad the game being reviewed is, no review should contain anything like the quote above, this is just personal hatred against the game and should never been seen in any magazine.
PS. If this guy has reviewed the orginal NC, could someone paste that here as well, would be pretty interesting to compare these two reviews....
Theres truth in this thread.
Dribble Joy
24-04-05, 13:32
It really is just a rant and not journalism.
Firstly I agree with 99% of what that reviewer has written.
Things I think need to change without making this game into a total carebear world where there is no risk. Hunting zones need changing to just hunting zones no PvP damage only PVM or PVE damage can occur, because lets face it people get totally fucked off getting killed constantly while they are trying to lvl in a cave. I know what people will be saying and that is we will just have zone whoring become more of a problem, a simple solution to that. Is if someone is attacked outside of a hunting zone they become flagged for 5 mins and if they zone into a hunting zone. They can be attacked and killed within that 5 min time they are flagged, another thing I know people are going to say is that they should leave there LE chip in.
The LE chip is shit, it should be removed imo, you can't get buffs from non LE'd PPU's and most PPU's are non LE'd so they can team lvl. You can't join a clan with the LE chip in that adds to the problem of not being able to find a good team or having some friends to play the game with. If hunting zones were to be made places where no PVP damage can occur then we would not need the LE chip to lvl in peace.
This game does have a bad community and use of bad language in OOC is getting or gotten totally out of hand, I logged on I think about 1 - 2 month ago. The first thing I did was ask a question I needed answering on OOC I forget what it was but I got told to fuck off, that is totally unacceptable. Yes this game is meant to be all hardcore etc but there's no need for that sort of behaviour, if they did not like me and wanted to express it they could have done it in a more appropriate way. I have seen some really bad shit on OOC with people using racist names and insulting peoples mothers etc. Yeah I could have reported them but nothing would happen or get done about it, there needs to be a clean up and people constantly using bad language need to be banned for 14 days.
More needs to be done to make this game more appealing for the new guys, simply adding new zones etc won't do jack shit if the game still has the stuff I just mentioned above.
There's lots of stuff that is wrong with this game and there so obvious
Dribble Joy
24-04-05, 14:18
Whether he is right or not isn't the point, the manner that he has 'reviewed' the game is unproffesional, inextricably bias and mostly based on his own opinion, and does not enter meaningfull discussion at all.
Mav, im not defending nid, nor am i defending the guy that made the review.
Ome thing i gotta get off my chest is that you make it sound like youve been here forever, Ive been playing NC since september'ish 2002. Ive put my neck out a few times, and got people to play this game even tho they saw the original reviews etc of NC and think naahhh maybe not, but even now, I still play neocron, I still love that buzz from PvP, from taking out 4-5 people solo, going against the odds and running around like im on a benny hill audition on my PPU around gravis etc, I love that adrenaline buzz, stillg ets me 3.5 years on, however it bores me shitless when I look at my chars and have absolutely nothing new to do now, nothing that i havent already done 2-3-4+ times already, and tahts including doy, only epic i havent done for doy is the new BD one for the apt... but what use is a BD apt so someone thats primary a city player and has been since febuary 04...
The game has ALOT of potential, but it annoys me that one minute they say that things are on a backburner because the staff are concentrating on another thing, then say that they dont want help from dedicated community members that CAN also do the job just as good in stuff like the missions storylines, artwork, skins etc, and tell them that their fine, because theyve made 4 or 5 renders of stuff that we wont see for the next 5 months ?! ViaRosso didnt get a overhaul in NC2, not a really noticable one anyhow as the skins are all original NC1 ones, York is a nightmare, I hate running around that shithole of a city yea 8/10 for artisticm impression of a bombed city, but hell its not like damien hurst ever made nything pleasing to the eye and hes a 'top artist' point being so what if its been bombed ? Does it have to be a bloody endless maze that all looks the same ? Theres areas that were ingame but closed off back in beta4 that still arent even open, sod it the list goes on and ill just start repeating myself...
I still love NC and I will still play it, however the game is not ATALL newbie friendly, never has been, and unless major things change and these newbie missions work well + the newbie helpers, it never will change...
I dont agree with the review completely, just alot of it does ring true when you sit back and read it through properly, but as usual it still has that 'i killed rats to level 30 and hated every minute of it' ring to it in the way he's written it.
I agree that the majority of the community are complete assholes, and in the past, ive been in the same clan as some of them, and ive fought them for god knows how long aswell, but hell, theres assholes in every game, and its really noticable unless your on their side, its fun for them, annoying for those on the wrong end of it, however, thats what made me laugh about nids comment, neocron is not for pussies, it is a pvp orientated game and every aspect of NC revolves around PVP. Dont like a fight, dont play neocron, love a good fight then play neocron because youll get a buzz a truckload bigger from it then you will from any other MMO thats out there, you just have to put up with the fatals every now and then which in my experience are pretty rare now, and throw it back into the face of the assholes out there by kicking their ass across cycrow and taunting them back :D Its all just banter at the end of the day... Just some people take it to heart too much, their the ones that need to get out more because its just a computer game, its a virtual world, it means jack shit to me other then entertainment, but i still want NC to succeed...
Its gonna be a shock when half of it goes tits up and theres a hotfix again
Well, actually your wrong, it would be a shock if there was _not_ a hotfix. :D
As for the review, there are some truths but this guy just displayed it in the most aggressive fashion I have seen and clearly did not experience the better aspects of the game that would answer some of his questions.
Well, actually your wrong, it would be a shock if there was _not_ a hotfix.
be quiet :D your not normally silly enough to think of stuff like that Genty ;)
Dr Strange
24-04-05, 14:47
Whether he is right or not isn't the point, the manner that he has 'reviewed' the game is unproffesional, inextricably bias and mostly based on his own opinion, and does not enter meaningfull discussion at all.
Um, that's what a review is...
While he is a journalist, he is a critic as well. Siskel and Ebert watch movies and then tell you what they think of them. They put their reviews in newspapers, magazines and even their own tv show.
Same here. This man works for what, one of three, really large popular gaming magazines in the UK? (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't read these as they aren't avaible here unless you go to an international newstand). He's giving his own personal review of the game. If the gaming magazine style was stance of "We support the opinions of our writers" then the magazines would be reviewing games with teams of people at a time and as such wouldn't be considered a personal opinion (more so what you are thinking of).
A review is sums up a game or subject, siting facts and issues, and includes opinions of the reviewer. It's a universal method.
Lexxuk cause i have had alot of respect for u man i am willing to agree my idea was a bit silly but i only suggested it as no one else tryed to come up with a solution... that review along with the others like it will take (i belive) a massive toll on the game. Suger coating (as u put it) the game isnt the best solution and i was being hasty when i suggested it, but being a ex Neocron lover i still want to try and help out where i can, i thourght for a short space of time this could be a idea.. not just to solve the reviewing situation.. though if u look at me second plan where KK give them a high lvl char to try (as peeps say its a mmorpg... u need to play it for a long time... that ok u need to expericnceing working from the bottom up.. (but we all know just to spam certain areas with a ppu for a few days to sort that)... but also to give a full review in my opiunion u have to see what to finished result in the game is.. and i belive thats a high lvl/capped char which takes part in things like OP fights...fight nights (like u event on uranus if u remeber) to enjoy the rush of the game. But also the point of the first idea i came with (point 1) was that it might bring thecommunity closer together to help save the game from what seems extintion..
anyway no harm was inteneded.
The majority of high end content in this game, is achieved through leveling up from scratch, you cant suddenly be a capped player taking part in Op wars, you need to be part of faction X, clan X etc.. Getting to cap helps you learn the game too, giving a new player a capped char, means new player has a really bad char he dont know how to use so will just get frustrated even more.
Though say KK did give the guy a capped char, they couldnt say "x is a writer, be nice!" that would paint a huge target above his head saying "gank me!" so he'd do to an op unknown, get into a fight, then see OOC filled with shit talk afterwards, enforcing his "NC community = vulgar" expression.
The review, whilst harsh, is extremly fair and not biased, he played the game and gave his honest opinion on the game and community, well, at least the vocal side of the community, maybe he shoulda started on the french server, at least he would have had a nicer time with the other three players there.
Dr Strange
24-04-05, 14:58
@Kozmos
No, I haven't been here long. Very little if you compare it to the guys who played Beta 1 of NC1 years ago. But I do know an honest review when I see it.
Yes, like many people I'm a hypocrite; I keep pumping money into a game to play it monthly that is as bad as that review says. But like I say NC2 is a two sided coin. On one you have like you say, your fun experiences PVPing. For me it's hunting, the occasional tradeskilling nice slotted items, driving vehicles and yes some PVP. But for me on the other side of the coin I see the flaws of the game that I personally think will be it's downfall within 3-6 months; the engine bugs of fatals and bad synchs, the gameplay bugs of various aspects from weapons to skills, the content as you mention for high level characters, etc. It's something you simply can't run away from, you love playing it under certain circumstances sometimes and others you wonder why the hell are you giving money to these people (if you can through C2P or bypase the increased fees of PBC).
It doesn't take veteranship of years playing to realize the above. Many games have been like this over the years. Hell I give KK more credit than most, at least currently their still promising this and that. Most companies would have said "ok fuck this, let's crank out the next Ultimate Mega Super Doom 4 now" and cut support all together. But again, that leads back to the NC2 two sided coin.
Well the review could have been a lot worse :lol:
The guy was spot and if anything not harsh enough.
lol,
http://img158.exs.cx/img158/4927/potatowned19xt.gif
OK, I sent back again and looked over the review, because so many people (apparently including Nidhogg) think it's a completely unfair review. Set aside the writer's scathing tone, are his actual charges fair or not? And are they important enough to discourage most potential customers from enjoying the game?
Here are his actual charges, stripped of (most of) the inflamatory language:
The new RPOS is terrible, worse than the old one. For crying out loud, how many polls do we, the community, have to do where clear majorities agree with him on this before you admit that the new RPOS windows that you think are so pretty are so cluttered, so hideous, and so hard to use that huge percentages of us are begging for the old one back? Is his accusation true or false? True.
Graphics quality lags behind other MMPORGs. Compare the character models, and their limited customization options, to the ones in EQ2, SWG, CoH, WoW, or MxO. If you've played even one of those games and then come back to Neocron, you can't help but be embarrassed at how ugly our characters are, and how identical they are to each other. This is reflected in the various polls in Community Talk where huge percentages prefer even the old models to the new ones, and the constant stream of people in the in-game Help channel who ask if there's any way to get the old models back. In defense of Neocron's graphics, the actual world design is so superior to EQ2 and SWG that they get some points back in that category, and the static world design is at least as good as WoW's and MxO's. And of course, the graphics are miles beyond the hideous graphics in AO. But character customization is the number one area people look at for MMPORG graphics, and given the importance of that, is his accusation true or false? True.
You hardly ever see another player. Frequently Asked Question number 3 or 4 in the in-game Help channel is, "Where do people hang out now?" Common complaint number four or five is that people miss the crowd in Plaza One. Now, I predicted this back when people were begging for the Plaza to no longer be a safe zone. No tradeskiller, no trader, and nobody just hanging out for social reasons, is going to just stand around in a combat zone waiting to be ganked. As a result, the only place in the game where you're likely to find anyone to actually talk to in person is Tech Haven sector 2. And TH2 is tiny compared to Plaza 1, ugly and boring compared to Plaza 1, and unknown and/or almost completely inaccessable to players below about level 20. Other than trading and socializing, the other area where people want to see other players is when forming teams to level up. In NC1, this was easy. There were only one or two popular beginner leveling spots, the "rat runs" in Plaza 1, and if you went to one of them, you could count on a group. Now the people who would use level 1 hunting areas are scattered all over the map. This is even more so in the Dome, where the 5 player-apartment sectors are widely separated from each other. I doubt that one player a week, for example, enters any level 1 hunting area in TS or BD sector. Similarly, because there's no crowd in Plaza 1 to attract them, starting characters in NC head for the nearest level 1 sewer ... and it's empty. If you're a PE or a PPU and you almost need a team to level up, then as a beginner it's pretty rough for you. Is his accusation true or false? True. But the continuing improvements in beginner MC5 may make the empty individual level 1 sewers moot, so there's at least some reason for hope.
Rude and unhelpful players. To some extent, I can't shake the suspicion that "unhelpful" in this part of the review is mostly related to the previous complaint, namely that he couldn't find anybody to team with. But on the other hand, try to find a poke, or a constructor, or a researcher, anywhere other than TH2. Be prepared to wait. Now try to find a pre-built low-level weapon. Then give up, because nobody has that long to wait. Heck, this has gotten worse, not better, as the populations have risen. You used to be able to at least occasionally find tradeskillers in the more popular faction HQs (especially TT and FA), which were clearly set up for the purpose, but in the last several months there's been a steady and unpleasant drift away from the faction HQs towards everyone being in TH2.
Are Neocron players rude? Not compared to Anarchy Online. But my god, the constant trash talk that happens after PvP, especially op wars, and the absolutely juvenile level of that trash talk, is just depressing. Part of me wishes that you could get banned from this game just for being a whiner in public. We've already talked about how bad an idea it was to have OOC turned on by default, but at least on Terra server there's just as much really, really childish screaming and whining in Trade-NC as there is in OOC. So while the majority of NC2 players are nice people, and helpful to new players, if you join NC2 your chat window will be about 75% full of garbage that's just absolutely depressing to read, 99% of the time. So, is his accusation true? False, but I can certainly see how you'd get that impression.
Buggy as hell. He doesn't elaborate on this one, but he's right. In NC1, I got a fatal runtime error about once a week. These last several weeks, I'm averaging about one an hour. All but two of the really aggravating drone bugs were worked out in Drone Theme "Week," but two of the major professions (hackers and drivers) are now even buggier than riggers were even at our worst. Do you really expect your average MMPORG customer to put up with one game crash per hour, especially when the majority of those crashes immobilize your character in the most dangerous environments in the game? Is his accusation true or false? True.
All of these are things that the overwhelming majority of the players complain about, too. So why is there anyone who takes an objection to this guy's review? Because it didn't cover any of the actual good reasons why we play Neocron 2 anyway. Yes, it has all of the above problems. But it's the grittiest MMPORG out there, the least juvenile in design. (Although I'm watching MxO out of the corner of my eye on both of those categories. Obviously so is he; one of the reasons this review is so negative in tone is that, as he implied, you no longer have to play NC2 if what you want is a cyberpunk MMPORG. Unlike when NC1 came out, there are now alternatives.) The world design in NC and NC2 is just amazing. The PvP, especially large wars, is the coolest out there and getting better all the time. There are reasons to put up with the huge ugly warts on this game. I wish he'd covered them. But apparently he didn't last long enough to notice them, and I can't say I'm surprised. Disappointed, perhaps, but not surprised.
The majority of high end content in this game, is achieved through leveling up from scratch, you cant suddenly be a capped player taking part in Op wars, you need to be part of faction X, clan X etc.. Getting to cap helps you learn the game too, giving a new player a capped char, means new player has a really bad char he dont know how to use so will just get frustrated even more.
Though say KK did give the guy a capped char, they couldnt say "x is a writer, be nice!" that would paint a huge target above his head saying "gank me!" so he'd do to an op unknown, get into a fight, then see OOC filled with shit talk afterwards, enforcing his "NC community = vulgar" expression.
The review, whilst harsh, is extremly fair and not biased, he played the game and gave his honest opinion on the game and community, well, at least the vocal side of the community, maybe he shoulda started on the french server, at least he would have had a nicer time with the other three players there. Lexx, if what you say is true and kk did gave him a capped char, then kk knew that he was a journalist that was about to review the game. And if thats the case it really makes me wonder if they stick a team of players with him, just to show him the ins and outs. If they didnt its entirely their fault, but if they did, then why did the guy needed help from the first place? how come such a VIP is left alone in a world so huge that you need time to master it? I have asked it before and Im asking it again: was this guy undercovered or not? if not, then god help us all. if yes then why was he ever allowed to do it like this?
Heavyporker
24-04-05, 16:45
I guronatee you that reviewer came in the way any other newbie does - kicking and screaming into MC5.
There... he got shafted.
MC5 is the place where dreams go to die.
I guronatee you that reviewer came in the way any other newbie does - kicking and screaming into MC5.
There... he got shafted.
MC5 is the place where dreams go to die. No wonder why he gave this low score then, or all that rage
The upcoming patch is a doozy as it will encompass all of the little sneak peeks we've been dropping in the last few months. I'd say that it's the biggest content change we've ever had (after DoY itself of course). There's some genuinely surprising stuff in there...
N
off topic:
Well, I hope that you don't tell us that there are any new zones there so that we can find they for once and be taken back by surprise.
Setting aside the fact that Gene Siskel doesn't get to watch many movies these days, it's like them watching a good but flawed movie about some people who insult movie reviewers and then them giving it a quite frankly disgusting score simply because they didn't like being called pussies. Forget the fact that the movie explores territory that no other movie has ever dared to explore. Forget the fact that it has a unique style. It pissed them off so they're going to do their best to make the film makers pay, in the pocket.
Do I think it's "fair and unbiased" for someone to score a game based on their experience with a two week slice of a two-year old community? No, I don't. Imagine if a reviewer gave Counterstrike a score worse than Army Men simply because he got shot in the back.
I for one wouldn't waste a second of my time on a game that truly deserved a 24% score and I suspect you wouldn't either.
N
well, we know where the valid points are in that article. we know that there is a 2m wall you have to klimb as a noob to get into the game.
BUT, its not true that there is nobody out there that want to help you klimb that wall. how much help you get depends on how you ask for it. and even if you dont ask at all you get into a team when leveling on the usual places.
most helpcalls get answerd on help and if not it was a question that not everyone can answer.occ language may be a little explicit but its easy to mute the channel, put ppl on ignore or call professional help(helpdesk/GM) if someone insult you permanetly.
most of the article should be seperated as a personal opinion and not go in flow with the test.
i dont want to rate the score because i dont know anythin about the mag, and it would fit into the usual range.
enigma_b17
24-04-05, 20:30
I for one wouldn't waste a second of my time on a game that truly deserved a 24% score and I suspect you wouldn't either.
N
i agree that it doesnt deserve a 24%, but people are going to read it, they dont know anything bout the game, theyll see 24% and wont come anywhere near it :/, and the chap does have some valid points.
as brad says, most of us will agree with most things he said, however he really is picking all the bad things of the game out and giving the game a score ENTIRELY on those bad things. you could give any game out there a 24% if you do that. Now, if or not these things hurt the ability to get far enough to the game to experiance whats great about neocron- if a reviewer isnt going to play everything about the game, he shouldnt write a review.
I for one wouldn't waste a second of my time on a game that truly deserved a 24% score and I suspect you wouldn't either.
N We know that already Nid.
But you must communicate this to the rest of the world, otherwise we will have allways low pop. So act fast in that direction. Maybe start PR with those mags, for a second opinion after this supposed super duper patch, and this time make a welcoming comitee, to show them the game as a vet knows, and not letting them on their own killing roaches in mc5.
And if you cant get a second opinion, then just f**k them and make the game as it should be. People will finally come.
One battle is lost, dont lose the war.
It's like losing a game because a referee decided to give your opponents a penalty just because he didn't like a crowd chant. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how well your team played because you're going to get shafted by someone with no vested interest in your success.
N
It's like losing a game because a referee decided to give your opponents a penalty just because he didn't like a crowd chant. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how well your team played because you're going to get shafted by someone with no vested interest in your success.
N This might be true for football games, not for mmorgs.
Not everybody read those magazines, so there is still hope for some. Make the game right as its supposed to be, and do another contact in that magazine. Get at least one of those two and ask for a second opinion. If they turn you down, find other magazines, there has to be more than those 2 and nurse the guy/guys who will review the game. dont let him on his own.
As for the last remark, its entirelly wrong. If the product is good, there is simply none that can shaft anything. He simple doesnt have the power. In the end the players are the final judges for the game. And they also judge the magazines as well...
i agree that it doesnt deserve a 24%, but people are going to read it, they dont know anything bout the game, theyll see 24% and wont come anywhere near it :/, and the chap does have some valid points.
It doesnt deserve 24% but it comes close. People play for the community not for the game.
Dr Strange
24-04-05, 21:08
Setting aside the fact that Gene Siskel doesn't get to watch many movies these days, it's like them watching a good but flawed movie about some people who insult movie reviewers and then them giving it a quite frankly disgusting score simply because they didn't like being called pussies. Forget the fact that the movie explores territory that no other movie has ever dared to explore. Forget the fact that it has a unique style. It pissed them off so they're going to do their best to make the film makers pay, in the pocket.
Do I think it's "fair and unbiased" for someone to score a game based on their experience with a two week slice of a two-year old community? No, I don't. Imagine if a reviewer gave Counterstrike a score worse than Army Men simply because he got shot in the back.
I for one wouldn't waste a second of my time on a game that truly deserved a 24% score and I suspect you wouldn't either.
N
And again you miss the point of where a personal opinion, even if negative and harshly toned, still counts in a review. Pointing out the uniqueness of Neocron doesn't help your case. I agree NC is original, and unique in it's own ways. But do you seriously blinder the fact that the cyberpunk mmo genre is very limited in the amount of games it has? That doesn't mean it shouldn't be scrutinized as much, it means theres not many options open to fans of this genre.
He had two weeks, as you specifically point out. 2 weeks is more than enough time to get a good feel of an MMO. You can ask around vaious chat channels about content later on that you aren't ready for, you have time to explore the various cities and hunting grounds open to you (of appropriate level to yours unless you like a challenge) etc. He gave it ample time. Now if he had say, spent a week or less, I could sympathize with your side.
And depending on the game, yes I'd "waste" my time on a 24% scored game. Do you totally disregard my statements of how Neocron 2 is like a double sided coin? On one side, we greatly enjoy several parts of the game. From the pvp, to the uniqueness of the FPS style combat, to content that other cyberpunk MMO's do not offer. On the other side we question every day why we still play thanks to lack of communication, lack of implementation and lack of support for a game that has great potential but falls short all the time. If you cannot honestly understand that, then you don't understand the community. Just abou everyone loves playing, for some reason(s) or other, and just about everyone is upset/angry with the game due its various issues, just like my whole double sided coin analogy. Are you saying we're all wrong for having a split opinion of the game?
And Nid, let's play devils advocate here; Let's say you're right. The writer was off his mark and didn't need to go to that length or whatnot in his review. Does that give YOU, a paid KK employee, an employee who represents KK and 10Tacle Studios (as your sig points out), the right to call a public journalist a pussy infront of the entire community? Sure, you may technically have "the right" to do so, but do you honestly, honestly think its ok as a representative and spokesperson of KK/10tacle to do so? You're doing nothing but making yourself look even lower and KK look like it's ok to just publically humiliate and demean others. Fuck even if the game was magically 100% fixed over night, your comments alone could make him not ever want to play again. I know I would if I were a journalist who was just publically humilated by the company whom I just reviewed a game of.
Setting aside the fact that Gene Siskel doesn't get to watch many movies these days, it's like them watching a good but flawed movie about some people who insult movie reviewers and then them giving it a quite frankly disgusting score simply because they didn't like being called pussies. Forget the fact that the movie explores territory that no other movie has ever dared to explore. Forget the fact that it has a unique style. It pissed them off so they're going to do their best to make the film makers pay, in the pocket.
Do I think it's "fair and unbiased" for someone to score a game based on their experience with a two week slice of a two-year old community? No, I don't. Imagine if a reviewer gave Counterstrike a score worse than Army Men simply because he got shot in the back.
N
To continue the film analogy, in this case the bad review came first, so it cannot be the result of your calling the reviewer a pussy.
That said, I agree that 24% is too harsh and his language was rather agressive. But the guy has some valid points, and it has been known for a long time that getting started in NC is difficult.
Part of that could be fixed by explaining the basics better, both in the handbook and in game. If you can find important information like recycling recipes only through long experimenting or third-party websites, even a fair reviewer might unneccessarily miss out on some things and under-value the game.
Another point is that significant parts of the game are accessible only at higher levels. In some cases this makes sense (high risk areas for experienced hunters), in other cases, it is an unnecessary turn-off for new players. A short list of the latter:
-Tech Haven as the most popular trading area is quite difficult to reach for newbies. This really hurts the player economy.
-Constructing weapons for sale to other players becomes viable only after a significant amount of leveling.
-Re-decorating your appartment is a cool feature, but at the moment quite limited by the fact that most of your furniture in the starter appartment is fixed. It takes a lot of money to get an unfurnished appa and really enjoy that feature - one opportunity missed to make NC look good for new players.
Again, even a fair reviewer might fail to discover the good points because he cannot spend months on exploring one game, and I'm sure we have lost many newbies the same way.
And don't get me started on the bugs....
Nidd, this actually is all the gm's fault to some extent. If KK had a firm stance on not being a dick to each other , then the reviewer wouldn't have been fustrated with the game and given up so easily. This is because the policy would encourage being nice to one another and discourage assholes from playing.
enigma_b17
24-04-05, 23:47
while some1 has mentioned apartments, why in gods name are unfurnished ones MORE expensive then furnished apartments, theres nothing in the damn things lol, should it not be the other way around?
Do I think it's "fair and unbiased" for someone to score a game based on their experience with a two week slice of a two-year old community?
think of it on another aspect.. .when a new person comes to play the game and for the first two weeks get a bad impression like that reveiwer then they wouldnt stay. First impressions are said to be everything in this world, perhaps Neocron isnt making a good first impression... something for KK to work on?
RaTMaN McCruel
25-04-05, 00:19
The upcoming patch is a doozy as it will encompass all of the little sneak peeks we've been dropping in the last few months. I'd say that it's the biggest content change we've ever had (after DoY itself of course). There's some genuinely surprising stuff in there...
N
then i wonder why they didnt sell it as NC3 to us :lol:
but you are right, i cant wait much longer for it too, so Nid bann all official KK
from the board so they can work even harder on it, instead of spamming the
board with their spam accounts 8| :lol:
Crahn with you!
It's like losing a game because a referee decided to give your opponents a penalty just because he didn't like a crowd chant. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how well your team played because you're going to get shafted by someone with no vested interest in your success.
NHow about you cut the analogy bullshit and start sending out some KK Kleanup Krews to do something about this low blow to the game! As much as you flame the reviewer, he probably just kapowned the UK release of nc2. Maybe you should be out paying off other pc game reviewers to get some good ratings published!
lol @ nidhogg
not only doesnt the referee not like the chant, neither do 80% of the players on your own team..
going by comments in this thread id say your own players would walk off because they dont want to play for your team.. penalty aside you were still going to loose.
server no.s and comments in this thread are surely more important than one negitive reviewer?.. unless we are all pussy's as well
after playing the game for awhile its hard to stay focused on the good things, even harder to remember them when commenting on the game, how do you think comments to new potential players would go?
before i started this game, i read this forum.. and the one at mmorpg.com and taking the negitive ex-player comments aside.. i still came away with a negative thought regarding this game, and it was only because i played the original beta and thought the whole concept a good one, that i deciced to find out for myself.
in all honesty if i was to review this game, i probally wouldnt be as harsh but it would be difficult not to be as honest.
For the record, I have never seen a noob question on HELP go unanswered.
heh, that's only because nice people in the Neocron community (including myself, friends and quite a few other active runners) want to see Neocron grow and get a larger community, hopefully in return for bugs to be fixed (ie. FRE's), but that will never happen. 99% of the time GM's or higher ranked staff don't say a word unless it's to tell some d*ckweed to shut up, and even then, that doesn't happen too often.
Bit of a delayed post but I only just bothered to read part of this huge topic. 8|
Bugs Gunny
25-04-05, 09:33
24% is totaly biased and a too low score.
I would rate it 60-70%, but having been in nc1, seeing all the promises that were made and how the game is in nc2, i'd rate it 52%
I'm sure all the nc1 players wouldn't give it a lot more. The same old bugs still in nc2, and honestly, even though i love this game, NC2 was nothing but a rewrapping of the same present, just so you could get in the party for free drinks twice.
I've spent a lot of this weekend now inside NC2. Seen loads of bitching between a few individuals on OOC, but it is just that, a few individuals bitching at each other after a fight. 'I had SI you c**t' etc, nothing I find particularly offensive, because it's not aimed at anyone else but the players involved.
I do agree that OOC should be kept off though as default though, for those people who like play a game consisting of mainly killing other people or robots etc but cant bear to see swear words :)
Bugs Gunny
25-04-05, 10:02
Yeah, only time i ever see ooc is i i log in get bad synch etc, then relog and those damn chats are on again, and i have another 3 mails.
Do I think it's "fair and unbiased" for someone to score a game based on their experience with a two week slice of a two-year old community? No, I don't.
two week experiance? or was it the 10 days free trial?
need i say more?
oh and as for the channels maybe should help that the OOC channel is the ONLY global channel
Trade NC = for ppl INSIDE neocron
Trade wastelands = for ppl in the wastelands
Trade TH = for those INSIDE tech haven
Trade DoY = for those INSIDE DoY
if a DoY person is talking on Neocron Trade, it means that they are inside neocron, and vice versa... also, say said anti city is talking over trade (any trade
"random DoY: WTB CS 4 slots"
Random Neocron runner see's
"Random DoY: T£R TT *ssssss*"
as theyre comms... and therefore yu can only communicate with with each side either in local or in OOC
lessens the trade spam, makes TH more of a traders city, and means that the CM is the only ones that can decrypt both sides of the comms talk, and kills of trade spam and smack talk
Tidus_Origin
25-04-05, 10:14
Yeah, only time i ever see ooc is i i log in get bad synch etc, then relog and those damn chats are on again, and i have another 3 mails.
At least I'm not the only one who has OOC muted. :D
For the record, I have never seen a noob question on HELP go unanswered.
/agree. The answer's given in seconds, which, when you're new to a game, is what you need to get you started.
Which puts the reviewer's statement about the community being 'totally unhelpful' (or however he phrased it) pretty much out the window.
enigma_b17
25-04-05, 10:37
two week experiance? or was it the 10 days free trial?
need i say more?
oh and as for the channels maybe should help that the OOC channel is the ONLY global channel
Trade NC = for ppl INSIDE neocron
Trade wastelands = for ppl in the wastelands
Trade TH = for those INSIDE tech haven
Trade DoY = for those INSIDE DoY
if a DoY person is talking on Neocron Trade, it means that they are inside neocron, and vice versa... also, say said anti city is talking over trade (any trade
"random DoY: WTB CS 4 slots"
Random Neocron runner see's
"Random DoY: T£R TT *ssssss*"
as theyre comms... and therefore yu can only communicate with with each side either in local or in OOC
lessens the trade spam, makes TH more of a traders city, and means that the CM is the only ones that can decrypt both sides of the comms talk, and kills of trade spam and smack talk
i agree to a certain extent comie, but thats goin to push people away from the city (nc and doy) zones alot more then there is atm....
I have asked it before and Im asking it again: was this guy undercovered or not? if not, then god help us all. if yes then why was he ever allowed to do it like this?I'm curious how any reviewing method other than "undercover" would ever have any value.
As for the movie analogy, which I rather like, I'd say NC2 was rather like :
- You saw this awesome low-budget movie years ago and loved it but it ended on a cliffhanger.
- There's been talk for years about a sequel and lots of promises and rumours about big-budget sfx and a wonderfully complex plot that follows on from the original seamlessly
- Finally it arrives and although it doesn't have a huge release it is on at the little local cinema owned by a mate of the film's director
- You dash down there on day one as soon as work ends
- While in the queue outside your wallet is stolen
- It's raining
- The cinema opens 3 hours late
- When you get in the tills are all broken so you can't buy a ticket
- You go home
- A few days later you try again and this time you get a ticket but you're somewhat shocked when it costs almost double the normal price at the multiplex down the road
- You want a jumbo popcorn but they only have small buckets and no butter
- You buy one anyway but half way to the screen you discover it has a hole in it and you've just left a trail of popcorn across the foyer
- Finally you get to your seat - it's behind a pillar
- The credits start - excitement builds - explosions and wild things abound
- 5 minutes in the sound cuts out
- 10 minutes in the sound returns but the left half of the screen is blank
- A fight starts in the row behind you - ushers look on but don't intervene
- 15 minutes in you realise that you're actually watching the original movie re-edited with some filler scenes you once read got left on the cutting room floor from the original release (you're pretty sure there's some stills on the Limited Edition DVD).
- 20 minutes in half the cinema leaves but you decide to stay as your favourite scene is coming up
- Your favourite scene has been removed
- For some reason the hero character is now a vilain but you have no idea why - he's also sleeping with his sister and his father has had a sex change - the other characters don't seem to have noticed
- The reel catches fire and the film stops for an hour - the cinema staff make no comment about this
- After it restarts another fight breaks out. This time it overflows onto your lap (crushing the empty popcorn bucket)
- You consider moving to the other side of the cinema hoping people are more civilised there but can't because for some reason there's a 10 foot high wall down the middle of the theatre
- You go out into the foyer and re-enter on the other side to find it completely empty
- You then also discover it has no speakers so all you can hear is the sounds of fighting coming through the wall
- You stick it out for 10 more minutes then go down the road to the multiplex and watch something shiny and stupid involving Nicholas Cage saving the world from hamsters which you end up rather enjoying
Now the questions I would ask after all that are :
1) Are all those disasters the film-makers fault - No
2) Are a lot of those disasters the film-makers fault - Yes
4) Would you rather it had been better and you hadn't had to watch CGI hamsters - Hell yes
3) Do you still love the original - Yes
4) Do you still admire the film-makers for what they've achieved - Yes
5) Would you give it a good review - No
Sorry to drag an anology to extremes but the more I thought about it the more appropriate it seemed (to me at least).
Bugs Gunny
25-04-05, 11:04
Jernau, i was laughing out loud at work with that analogy post, cuz it's all so true. Memleaks, C2P disaster when beta went retail, FRE's, plot and alliances complete gone fubar, ....
Sorry to be late with this,
It's a full page review with a few screenshots, and also has a full page advert for the game further back in the magazine.
It's like losing a game because a referee decided to give your opponents a penalty just because he didn't like a crowd chant. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how well your team played because you're going to get shafted by someone with no vested interest in your success.
N
The same applies the other way,
He has no vested interest in your failure either. he does not represent your competitors, but is independant.
If I rated NC From NC1 to NC2, having seent the potential it had to offer.... In terms of reaching that potential I would give it 40%
As a new player looking for a RP game I would give it 55% based on content compared rival RP games
As a new player looking for 1st person shoot em ups, Probably about 65%...
Given its unique twist with RP and Shoot em up, for that concept about 80% - 90% as no one else does that.
Graphics , I not really a graphics guy, I see, I shoot, I kill so I wont rate this.
Ease of use (Hopefully noob MC5 will move it from about 50#% to about 70%)
Implementation, I been playing a few other games while watching NC and I have yet to fatal in any of them, thye have greater server pops and on average about the same lag. So for bugs, and lag about 30-40%
Overall as an old player about 50% as a new player about 60%.
That is non biased as I want the game to succeed, the success of NC means my enjoyment, so I have a vested interest.
Jesterthegreat
25-04-05, 13:58
a player only gets what... 10 day trial (thats assuming they get a trial at all... pbc doesnt offer one).
this trial is used to assess the game and to decide whether to pay...
why is this fine for players, but not for reviewers?
why is this fine for players, but not for reviewers?I suppose for a reviewer one of their tasks is to give the reader a full overview of the whole experience that can be expected with long term play of the game.
And a 10 day trial would not allow this experience. When I used to recieve review material for games a lot of the companies would also send details on how to skip levels in the game to allow the reviewer to actually get a full feel of the game without having to play through every single level.
a player only gets what... 10 day trial (thats assuming they get a trial at all... pbc doesnt offer one).
this trial is used to assess the game and to decide whether to pay...
why is this fine for players, but not for reviewers?
Because a review is supposed to look at all areas of a game and then weigh up it's good and bad points yet a new player is only supposed to have a taste of what's to come to see if they like it before they start paying to play.
Because a review is supposed to look at all areas of a game and then weigh up it's good and bad points yet a new player is only supposed to have a taste of what's to come to see if they like it before they start paying to play.
Yeah. That would be a bit like a magazine reviewing a demo of game, so more like a preview imo.
Let's face it, no amount of finished content or fixed bugs is going to stop a reviewer who's had his arse kicked solid for two weeks from giving us a bad review score. No one ever said this game was for pussies. Look as hard as you like and you won't find an elf anywhere.
N
well with that attitude its no wonder the games in such a shit state is it.
well with that attitude its no wonder the games in such a shit state is it.
Yeah, Nid's attitude has really contributed to bugs still remaining ingame and things not being completed on time...O_o
Evs, do u have possibility to scan full article and post it here? (i hope its not too much hassle)
Jernau funny stuff.
Really dont think it is possible to get a complete review with an mmorpg as you can with other games. It takes to much time and commitment to those games to do so. Hence almost any mmorpg review is not going to be more than a week or two, unless it hooks the players to the point were they might want to do a later review or make comments about it in thier review of other games.
Heavyporker
25-04-05, 15:12
Jernau, my experience with that movie you're talking about was fairly similiar, but there wasn't a fight behind me - just a bum drooling, and I was sitting on a chair that fell apart every 5 minutes, and because it was the only dry seat (all the other seats had been peed on) I had to keep putting it back together and sit on it.
what was this thread about again?
ah yes teh review. I think its lame to write such a personal hate against a game when your a reporter, they should fucking know better, isnt there any legal steps KK can take against this?
and this guy, whats his name again? played the game for what "a few weeks" wtf? you cant play this game a few weeks and know what its about. fuck that shit
stupid, just stupid, i cant even believe you guys think this is a good magazine, having "things" like him writeing reviews
Evs, do u have possibility to scan full article and post it here? (i hope its not too much hassle)
I have the facility to do it, just don't know if i'll be breaking any laws etc as i wouldnt have permission from the author, mag editor's etc
I'm probably not actually allowed to have retyped out the review (norty!), but I thought peeps would be interested and hopefully not grass me up ;)
Heavyporker
25-04-05, 15:26
Well, the visual context might help us understand the issue better...
Or was it a text-only writeup tucked away in the last 10 pages of the mag, sandwiched by advertisements for 500volt vibrators and wanking attachments for your computer?
Well, the visual context might help us understand the issue better...
Or was it a text-only writeup tucked away in the last 10 pages of the mag, sandwiched by advertisements for 500volt vibrators and wanking attachments for your computer?
http://neocron.jafc.de/showpost.php?p=1798234&postcount=130
the pictures tell a better story of the reporter. The screenies show him playing a spy. He said he played for a few weeks, on the screeenies he is shown in NC and in DOY so during that time he must have re-roled at least once. He never had more than 500nc, or 51 body health, His quickbelt contains a Stiletto, two nib APU spells and a street model rifle.
Does this sound like someone who should be reviewing this game. MMOG's are so different from normal games that in order to review them, the reporters should hace the good sense to contact the company and be assigned a guide, such as an old school player or even temporary membership to a large clan for a few weeks in order to be guided through the teething problems. We would be lying if we were to say that when we first started we werent annoyed at the fact that a Mosquito could kill us or looked stupid when we made a rifle tank (i only say this because it was what i made first, he may even have had PSI resist :lol: ), the reporter had no clue and shouldnt be writing a review of the game in a national magazine. Shame on PC Zone, all seems very Amateur.......... rookies
I agree Preach. MMORPGs normally have a much steeper learning curve than other games (this is also true about CRPGs in general).
Before playing any new mmorpg, it is advised to spend some time reading up on it on the various websites and forums available. That is, if you actually want to have a character that is any good, without making massive adjustments or rerolling later on - something I wouldnt expect a reviewer to have time for.
what was this thread about again?
ah yes teh review. I think its lame to write such a personal hate against a game when your a reporter, they should fucking know better, isnt there any legal steps KK can take against this?
and this guy, whats his name again? played the game for what "a few weeks" wtf? you cant play this game a few weeks and know what its about. fuck that shit
stupid, just stupid, i cant even believe you guys think this is a good magazine, having "things" like him writeing reviews
(i quote you but i could quote any other ;) )
The problem is not if the magazine is good or not, nore if the journalist is good/fair or not, nore if he played 2 hours or 2 months.
The problem is that this review now exists and that it is in one of the most important UK game magazine (as i understood it).
ReaKKtor should take this more seriously than Nid had took (no offense).
10Tacle and Atari look to finally do their job by advertising NC2. Good point.
But it's not an end to have a review in a magazine, they have to read it carrefully and work on some of the problems hilighted by the journalist.
(i quote you but i could quote any other ;) )
The problem is not if the magazine is good or not, nore if the journalist is good/fair or not, nore if he played 2 hours or 2 months.
The problem is that this review now exists and that it is in one of the most important UK game magazine (as i understood it).
ReaKKtor should take this more seriously than Nid had took (no offense).
10Tacle and Atari look to finally do their job by advertising NC2. Good point.
But it's not an end to have a review in a magazine, they have to read it carrefully and work on some of the problems hilighted by the journalist.
ILOVE beeing quoted :D
but i fully agree with you dude... and indeed KK should take this more seriously
Well, I think it is a good thing that this review was written.
1. Because it gives KK a kick up the arse as they can clearly see the anger and frustration that the game gives people because they know is can be the best game out there and is yet to realise that.
2. It gives them a new challenge, proving that arsehole wrong.
3. Re-enforces many of our views that bugs should now be number 1 priority, who cares for new content when the old stuff still does not all work. (Clan wars anyone?)
4. Shows KK that a "Great Concept" is only good when selling ideas to people, not good for games that have been made and the "Great Concept" is yet to be developed into a "Great Game"
What are you all expecting from a game reviewer? That he comes into work at 9am, plays NC2 through till 5pm, stopping only for lunch breaks, and does it for 2 months solid to get a "full feel" of the game? And during this time, he must read the (non existant? Still not on NC.com) manual cover to cover, as well as read every website based on NC to get to know the game inside out before reviewing the game? Get realistic, the guy has a limited time to play the game, as well as play other games, he has to write about his opinion of the game, stating if he found it great or a load of crap.
Does KK have any legal comeback? None, as a journo, he has this thing called "Freedom of the press" as well as "Freedom of speach" and of course the legal protection of his opinion. He could have given the game 1% said it was the worst game he ever played and bashed it even more than he did, and that is his right and that is what his mag pays him to do.
Look at it another way, if he had said "wow, it really is a new expansion, lots of new content, all the bugs gone, wonderful community, possibly the best mmorpg out there!" you lot would be "OMFG YES!!" whilst the people who read the review and then buy the game would be calling for the guy to be fired. He is paid to call a spade a spade. He has taken his experience as a typical experience of a typical new player and made a review based on this time he spent in game. His opinion is not biased in any form, he doesnt care if NC2 fails or suceeds, all he cares about is getting his opinion right, cause if he got it wrong, his readers would complain, and thats his job on the line.
Lets look at the facts, no patches, huge bugs not fixed for ages, CTD's, FRE's, ganking, abusive language on OOC, no manual, broken content etc.. etc.. etc.. this game has so many many many bad things that have never been fixed, that the review that gave it a 50 odd % totally surprised me as it gave such a buggy game (1 crash per hour, if your lucky) such a high score.
Dont bash the reviewer, bash KK till they get around to making a game that can score over 70% in any mag. And the American mags, do you think they will be kinder on the game, or much much worse? Are the American reviewers ingame now playing? Are they that /20 you ganked for no reason with your swirly gun or called a n00b or a nib or whatever? You never know really do you?
I haven't read the entire thread but I did notice that someone said the reviewer was given capped char to review the game with. If this was the case then what a great idea! (if this was not the case then ignore the rest of this thread.)
Reviewer with NC allied capped tank walks into PP3 and thinks this is pretty. .
DOY pistol spy runs up and starts attacking the enemy.
Reviewer [tank] tries to run into pp2, but cannot because someone parashocks him.
The spy gives up on the pistol (because he realises that this tank can't do shit) and starts punching him to death for fun.
Reviewer finally pulls his CS and tries to shoot but for some reason keeps missing.
Spy keeps punching and tank dies after 10 mins.
The tank genreps to his apartment and gets spammed with shittalk on direct for being a nib, which is fair.
opps.
Yeah, Nid's attitude has really contributed to bugs still remaining ingame and things not being completed on time...O_o
the suggestion was that the public "face" of a company acting like a 14 year old with delusions of grandeur doesnt bode well for the rest of said companies employees.
if you werent blinded by fanboism you might have picked that one up.
the game was absolute genius when it came out. now its a prime example of how not to make mmorpg. i only keep coming back to these boards because i have this misplaced hope that someday neocron will fulfil its huge potential. but as the months and years have rolled by filled with broken promises, continuing bugs and lack of content, that hope has slowly died
Just to point out the screenies may have been stock images or simply taken early on in his play-time or on a different account/PC/character. My guess would be stock images.
I'm as unwilling to believe that in 2 weeks that's as far as he got as I am to believe no-one would help him.
the suggestion was that the public "face" of a company acting like a 14 year old with delusions of grandeur doesnt bode well for the rest of said companies employees.
Nid has been with KK for a few months, as far as i know the employee's "behind the scenes" have not changed in this time, KK did not fix the bugs before or after (as of yet). How would Nid making a comment that this game is not for pussies change that in any shape or form?
if you werent blinded by fanboism you might have picked that one up.
see other posts.
hes been community liason for a few months, hes been forum mod etc etc for as long as i can remember way back in beta 4, but then i am getting old and my memory isnt what it used to be.
in either event it was the wrong attitude to take imo. kk should LISTEN to the reviewer and try and fix the game. but they havent listened to the community for over 3 years, nids response indicated they wont even be listening to games reviewers either. not only that but to then give said reviewer aggro was ludicrous lol
Believe me I take it very seriously. If we were just some factory, mass producing rubbish throw-away games then a score like that wouldn't be such a big deal because you'd be expecting it anyway. You'd take it on the chin and move on to your next project. Then, if you had any self-respect you'd move somewhere where your work actually meant something to yourself and others. ;)
We're not though. Neocron is everything we do and there are a huge number of people who have devoted the last few years of their lives to it. It's not rubbish, it's not shallow, it's not something you can "finish" in 12 hours and, yes, it's not for pussies. ;) Sure it's not perfect, but it doesn't deserve what it received in that review.
We'll think long and hard about what can be done to address some of the issues here because underneath the outragous language there are some important points. Neocron isn't for the easily offended (even the NPCs tell you to piss off), but perhaps we should crack down on the shit talk. That sounds like a discussion/poll thread right there. None of the other issues are new and we've already stated that we're working to resolve them - all I can do is repeat that statement.
N
Dr Strange
25-04-05, 16:53
hes been community liason for a few months, hes been forum mod etc etc for as long as i can remember way back in beta 4, but then i am getting old and my memory isnt what it used to be.
in either event it was the wrong attitude to take imo. kk should LISTEN to the reviewer and try and fix the game. but they havent listened to the community for over 3 years, nids response indicated they wont even be listening to games reviewers either. not only that but to then give said reviewer aggro was ludicrous lol
Agreed. As I said even if we all thought the reviewer was wrong (which most including myself think he was right btw) it didn't mean Nid and KK (since he does represent them now as a paid employee) could just take that tone and attitude with them.
Dr Strange
25-04-05, 17:11
It's not rubbish, it's not shallow, it's not something you can "finish" in 12 hours and, yes, it's not for pussies. ;) Sure it's not perfect, but it doesn't deserve what it received in that review.
You're really ignoring my analogy eh? ;/ Some of us think NC2 does deserve the review it recieved. And we're the ones paying to play it, you'd paid to work for KK (though I'm sure you've got your own account(s)). Most of the thread has been about people agreeing with what this writer has said and the points he made.
And you're still calling him a pussy. Again, you as a paid KK employee are relating being a pussy to this writer. Good job choosing your liason KK.
i wonder why ppl here cry for guided reviews of NC in a mag. it can be a part of a test because the programmer/PR guy can show you things you might miss on a complex game but its not what you get in the real world.
real world is leveling by rats and aggies and making mistakes.its learning by doing, by gettin called a noob that should read the forum, and by being kicked in the nuts for beggin' in plaza area without a LE.
a good review should have a neutral part with the discription of the game, one part where you tell good and bad stuff about it and the last part is where you put your personal statement in.
as for the fanboy thing here in that thread. i dont think any other game want NC fanboys. They to often tell the truth about this game and still loving it.
... Most of the thread has been about people agreeing with what this writer has said and the points he made.....
they agree on points he make. not on the rating and the community issue. i think that is the main source of anger here.
enigma_b17
25-04-05, 17:48
You're really ignoring my analogy eh? ;/ Some of us think NC2 does deserve the review it recieved. And we're the ones paying to play it, you'd paid to work for KK (though I'm sure you've got your own account(s)). Most of the thread has been about people agreeing with what this writer has said and the points he made.
And you're still calling him a pussy. Again, you as a paid KK employee are relating being a pussy to this writer. Good job choosing your liason KK.
dr strange, im in no way flaming or avin a go at you, but making niddy the liason was one of the best decisions kk ave ever made....if it wasnt for him the community would know absolutely nothing about what is going on. Frankly I think he doin a wonderful job (and im far from a fanboi of kk).
but back to the point of the thread, 90% of the people posting in the thread were agreeing with the writers statements, he may have gone a little overboard, but I dont think many people would even give neocron a rating of over 40-50%, i sure as banana's wouldnt. Its nice to know that your taking these facts into mind, but im afraid it may be too little too late :(
Richard Blade
25-04-05, 18:30
Social Outcasts
Not that you'd really want to meet another neocron player. Based on the several weeks running around this hell on virtual earth. I can say they are, to a man, the most obnoxious, foul-mouthed,unhelpful, bitter, spiteful,unpleasant and insular MMOG players I've ever had to encounter.
I'd love to put it down to a couple of one-off encounters, but for over two weeks I never once had an enquiry answered in a useful manner or managed to find anyone to team up with, instead being barraged by abuse, taunts and hostility simply for being a newbie. Honestly they are worse than the Young Conservatives.
He states "Based on the several weeks running around".
He follows that with "more than two weeks".
Should this then be followed with, "My play time was limited to the trial period".
And in turn that followed with, "The few minutes I bothered to log in during my trial period."
I suppose some people acted the way he states, but everyone I know in Templars would have helped him if they'd met him. Everyone I've ever talked to in FF would have helped him if he'd asked for it. I could go on about people I know in various clans, but I know I don't have to.
Granted, if he pulled his LE he might not have gotten a chance to ask if he wasn't in a safe zone. But there is always the help channel. It isn't guided by "red = ded".
I'd have to say, the only people I've seen act up are the same ones who flame and troll here.
As stated by others, I've never seen a question go for very long on HELP and not get answered. If not with the right answer, then with a responce that points the person in the right direction.
I can't say the author was rude and people treated him the same. I can't say he was a moron and tried asking for help on the "accepted" insult channel. ( Please Nid, no polls. Just crack down on the repeat offenders.)
The author seems to have lied about the experience.
As a member of this community, it makes me angry to be called the things he called the community. I take that as a pointed attack against me.
I suppose this makes me a hypocrite because I defend Nid in his statement about the game not being for Pussies.
He didn't actually call the guy one. He stated it in a manner that inferred that if a person can not take the atmosphere of the game, they should leave.
The guy obviously couldn't take the heat. But, Nid did not call him a pussy.
:p Not that Nid needs my help even if he did call that guy a name.
If I were one of those "the most obnoxious, foul-mouthed,unhelpful, bitter, spiteful,unpleasant and insular MMOG players" type of people, I'd call him a few mean things. Stomp my foot, stick my lip out and cry.
Perhaps I'd even urinate on his magazine.
Hey, who wants to burn him in effagy?
Regards,
RB
personally i could care less about the review. Neocron is for me. it is a MMO that i enjoy playing.
i played WoW for a few months and really enjoyed that, but i just hated the endgame PvP and stopped playing. i dont think reviews of MMO's without bias are even possible because you interact with other people. the fact that this man put 2 weeks into the game and could not find anyone to help him shows you something about how smart he is. i see newbies everyday asking for help on help channels, and these newbies usually get 2 or more people answering them ect. there are some valid points in the review but most of it seems like he was just a pissed off highschool student doing a review for a class he hated.
one of the best factors of this game is the steap learning curve, the experiences that you get from playing the game a long time imo. and that simply cannot be done in a 2 week period of time running around listening to people on OOC.
i will admit there are quite a few morons that are ingame, but there are a ton more people who arnt that way.
Heavyporker
25-04-05, 18:46
You know what? We should write letters to that magazine. If fans of the game vocally disagree directly to the editor/manager of that magazine, I suspect they will stand up and listen - an established game population pointing out that they strongly disagree with a review will get some attention.
Can the poster give address, etc of the magazine?
^ doubt they will listen to a 21 year old US citizen that cant even get there gaming mag. =\
PC Format Review - Appeared in Mag Feb 2005 (http://www.pcformat.co.uk/reviews/default.asp?pagetypeid=2&articleid=35057&subsectionid=680)
68%
Like the latter Matrix movies, Neocron 2 is packed with promise, yet hard to love. Coming on like Deus Ex meets Everquest, it’s nearly unique in that it’s a sci-fi MMOG set in the first-person, meaning that the game is more immediate and gripping than it is in many MMOGs, most of which rely more on point-and-click combat ‘management’ rather than twitch strafing and dodging.
The first Neocron was disappointing; not so much because it erred on the side of being buggy, but more because it fell into the age-old traps of MMOGs – grind and low-level rat-whacking, for example. And while Neocron 2 looks virtually identical with its simple textures and blocky models, it offers far more action from the off. There’s a broad range of careers for new players – we opted to begin life as a grenade launcher-wielding soldier working for the City Mercs - and within minutes, we were blasting droids for cash and XP.
The community is friendly, and getting to grips with the game’s foibles Like the latter Matrix movies, Neocron 2 is packed with promise, yet hard to love. Coming on like Deus Ex meets Everquest, it’s early unique in that it’s a sci-fi MMOG set in is made all the smoother because people are very willing to help if you ask them through the chatbar. And hey – the client’s free to download, which is a pleasant surprise.
But most of us don’t have time to play more than one or two MMOs, and there are far more accomplished, impressive and fun games out there – like EVE, WoW and EQII. Neocron 2 is no technical marvel, and so it ends difficult to recommend.
Al Bickham
Now that is a much more balanced review compared to this one. Heh, Maybe its City Mercs that are nice friendly people O_o
Scanner Darkly
25-04-05, 19:39
I will only post once in response to this fantastic article, since that is all the credit and dignity that it deserves.
The interviewer makes some points many of us, especially those who have been playing a bit longer would heartily agree with.
However he mistakenly uses his sledgehammer wit where some finesse and irony would have been much more effective. Like others have pointed out it does not read like a professional (game) journalist wrote it.
To me it comes across as an angry rant written in response to a nasty incident, does a game that is so insignificant that it warrants a 24% deserve all this rage and energy being expended over it? Never have I read such a scathing and furious review in a printed publication.
It almost sounds like KK kidnapped his daugher did unspeakable things to her before trading her for some camels with an Egyptian sheik, cockolded him, burned his house, shaved his cat and sexed him as he sat furiously scribbling (typing) this article.
PS: @ all you lollerskaters voting 5 don't forget that the reviewer is basically calling you and me a bunch of shithead fucktards whod be better off lobotomised and drooling in some institution for the criminally insane...
PS: @ all you lollerskaters voting 5 don't forget that the reviewer is basically calling you and me a bunch of shithead fucktards whod be better off lobotomised and drooling in some institution for the criminally insane...
Dont worry. We are tracking him down as we speak. I'll show him crimanily insane :P Other than that 5 star's. Theres alot of truth in what he has said and luckily nidhogg hasnt been able to sugarcoat it to much and more of the communinty has seen the game from another view instead of hilding on to the fanboi attitude hoping to good god they do something right. Im hoping this will be the kick up the arse kk need.
Lets face it alot of people basicly agreed with alot of points this guy made. They know theres something very wrong. You know the problem time to fix it tbh. If they dont well as a business they wont hold there customers eventually everyone will leave.
It almost sounds like KK kidnapped his daugher did unspeakable things to her
if she is anyway near as obnoxious as her father i'd pitty the kidnappers :D
Gotterdammerung
25-04-05, 20:53
Lets set a precedent now from this point forward. Please take the high road and leave some of the vile personal attacks out of this thread. I've already edited out a few things in which the poster was way out of hand in regards to what he thought should happen to the games reviewer. He's just a guy with a job who expressed his opinion. Last time I checked people had the ability to make decisions for themselves regardless of what other people say or write so lets not give this review too much creedence to disuade people from playing.
If you don't want him or others thinking this community is a bunch of social outcasts as he thought then lets stop calling for his death or that he be sent to a concentration camp (yes those were 2 things I had to edit out of posts).
virgil caine
25-04-05, 21:23
I for 1 would like to tip my hat to Nidhogg for enduring insults that, had they been leveled at other posters, would have been edited.
Thanks Nid for the job you do, keep it up.
john irons
25-04-05, 21:37
hah you ought to be thankfull they didnt let charlie brooker review this.
he would have given it 3% at most.
Dr Strange
25-04-05, 21:58
Lets set a precedent now from this point forward. Please take the high road and leave some of the vile personal attacks out of this thread. I've already edited out a few things in which the poster was way out of hand in regards to what he thought should happen to the games reviewer. He's just a guy with a job who expressed his opinion. Last time I checked people had the ability to make decisions for themselves regardless of what other people say or write so lets not give this review too much creedence to disuade people from playing.
If you don't want him or others thinking this community is a bunch of social outcasts as he thought then lets stop calling for his death or that he be sent to a concentration camp (yes those were 2 things I had to edit out of posts).
Honest questions here, not trying to troll but fair questions that need to be asked:
You say if we don't want this writer to call us the community whatever, we should stop flaming ok. Ok that thats fair, since some people disagree with his view point. But what about Nidhogg?
I realize he has the right to his own opinion just like any other human, but he now represents KK in the public light. I'm sure PC Zone wouldn't mind being pointed to such comments and told "This is what the public relations liason is saying about you and your magazine on their official forums where paying customers can see, and as such Reakktor is condoning it". Which is basically what's happening, while he's expressing his opinion like we are, he also represents Reakktor and 10tacle Studios, whom by proxy are saying/sharing the statements he is making.
Sorry, I mean I agree with this reviewer, and I understand others disagree. But just as it's not ok for forum users to stupe to personal attacks aganist the writer, should not Nidhogg and other Reakktor/10tacle representatives be held to the same rules?
IMO honesty and openness>politically correct bullshit.
Go Nid. :D
Dr Strange
25-04-05, 22:04
IMO honesty and openness>politically correct bullshit.
Go Nid. :D
I generally agree
But it's really, really stupid when a moderator/admin/employee of KK (whichever one applies) can say things, that aren't edited, yet normal forum goers can't.
Of course that's small in comparison to the simple fact that our only link to the devs is a guy deciding to throw some verbal fisticuffs back at a journalist.
I generally agree
But it's really, really stupid when a moderator/admin/employee of KK (whichever one applies) can say things, that aren't edited, yet normal forum goers can't.
Of course that's small in comparison to the simple fact that our only link to the devs is a guy deciding to throw some verbal fisticuffs back at a journalist.
It's an inevitable part of the fact KK is a small company not a global megacorp.
There are up-sides and down-sides to that and as this case shows there are things that could be either.
I personally always found the small community nature of Neocron to be one of it's greatest attractions and that in most cases it far outweighed the limits that places on the game.
Scanner Darkly
25-04-05, 22:26
Can you please pipe down Strange? You've been going on about this
Let's face it, no amount of finished content or fixed bugs is going to stop a reviewer who's had his arse kicked solid for two weeks from giving us a bad review score. No one ever said this game was for pussies. Look as hard as you like and you won't find an elf anywhere.
N
for how many pages now? At no point does that post say that the reviewer is a pussy. All that it does is expressly imply it :) Anyway calm the hell down, go for a walk, talk to your friends, just stop sounding like a broken record. While that may not be Nid at his finest, I don't see you contributing anything constructive, witty or worthwhile in this thread either.
Dr Strange
25-04-05, 23:21
Can you please pipe down Strange? You've been going on about this
for how many pages now? At no point does that post say that the reviewer is a pussy. All that it does is expressly imply it :) Anyway calm the hell down, go for a walk, talk to your friends, just stop sounding like a broken record. While that may not be Nid at his finest, I don't see you contributing anything constructive, witty or worthwhile in this thread either.
I ask questions and poke about till a GM tells me to stfu or be banned. Ive yet to break any rules in this thread. Besides if I don't point some shit out, or ask questions, someone may or may not do the same, ya never know.
Not that you'd really want to meet another neocron player. Based on the several weeks running around this hell on virtual earth. I can say they are, to a man, the most obnoxious, foul-mouthed,unhelpful, bitter, spiteful,unpleasant and insular MMOG players I've ever had to encounter.
I'd love to put it down to a couple of one-off encounters, but for over two weeks I never once had an enquiry answered in a useful manner or managed to find anyone to team up with, instead being barraged by abuse, taunts and hostility simply for being a newbie. Honestly they are worse than the Young Conservatives.
I think that sums up exactly why I don't play much anymore. The game is far better than that review gives credit for but, with a few notable exceptions, the community is really horrible.
By way of comparison I'd suggest playing a few hours of WoW on a PvE server. No Cursed Soul or hovertecs (boo!), but nice people.
Heavyporker
25-04-05, 23:49
I think that sums up exactly why I don't play much anymore. The game is far better than that review gives credit for but, with a few notable exceptions, the community is really horrible.
By way of comparison I'd suggest playing a few hours of WoW on a PvE server. No Cursed Soul or hovertecs (boo!), but nice people.
(That elric brother almost suits you too well, looking at a post like this...) Well, I've got to say, even with half the server on Terra somewhat annoyed with me, there's far, far more decent runners on than the asshats.
"To a man, they're all..." - bollocks. "but, with a few notable exceptions, ..." - bollocks.
Gotterdammerung
26-04-05, 00:47
Lets set a precedent now from this point forward.
To whomever has a question, the above quote seems very self-explainatory to me.
Now for someone who seems to keep wanting to flog a dead horse, if you wanna see "Oh nid said pussy, lets smack him on the bum" it isn't gonna come from me. Nids comments are his own and I'll stand by what he believes.
next topic
Scanner Darkly
26-04-05, 03:42
I can see what the scribbler dude means about the state of idiocy that raind in OCC - that is about the only criticism of the NC2 pop that I have since I have come back to the game 3 weeks ago. It is no better or worse than it used to be.
IF the idiocy is confined to OOC
IF OOC comes with a health warning
IF OOC is given a separate tab on HYPERCOM
IF OOC is muted by default
then there will be far less verbal (written) idiocy in NC...
and I doubt we will be called moronic zombies by computer game magazine journos (LAFFO)
I'm curious how any reviewing method other than "undercover" would ever have any value.
Take the undercover mission and roam freely to discover how it feels but,
later ask for the guided tour as well. It's the least decent thing you can do, knowing that NC2 was about to be released in UK, having a big content patch coming, which would also improve newbie's ecperience (according to kk's promises)
Not doing so, will leave a review with a lot of questions unanswered, one of which (at least to me) is validity. The way the guy reported is, that he took all dark (valid indeed) points leaving the rest out.
Besides, you cant just claim that there are some faithfull players playing the game and as a justification to this you do what? : you call the dark forces of universe!!! black magic!!! take a look:
Why anyone continues to play this day is a complete mystery.
A mystery wrapped in riddle, surrounded by an enigma, guarded by starved rottweilers with bags of angry wasps strapped to their genitals.
what a drama... :D
Edit: I forgot to say something for your Amazing post J. What makes it more funny is that most of the things you say there have already happened to me, but THE most FUNNY is the sit behind a pillar lol. You cant say about this if you havent experienced, so how have you experienced this one?? Coz I did lol :D:D:D
Take the undercover mission and roam freely to discover how it feels but,
later ask for the guided tour as well.That's reasonable I agree but it's also much more time consuming and relies on the developers respecting your deadlines and not abusing it excessively.
In all honesty I think that if that where the standard procedure games like NC would come off a lot worse than the big budget titles which can more easily commit time and staff to providing a spectacular guided tour. Can you imagine the fiasco if KK asked for volunteers to stage an OP war for some journos?
It's the least decent thing you can do, knowing that NC2 was about to be released in UK, having a big content patch coming, which would also improve newbie's ecperience (according to kk's promises)Did they know all (or any) of that? Could they be reasonably expected to know that? If they are followers of the "MMO scene" and familiar with KK and NC (both of which I believe are the case) would they believe it and want to present it to their readers as fact?
Not doing so, will leave a review with a lot of questions unanswered, one of which (at least to me) is validity. The way the guy reported is, that he took all dark (valid indeed) points leaving the rest out.Agreed again. It's poor form to present a point without a counter-point but I think some people are overlooking or unaware of the full context.
Firstly this magazine has been a strong supporter of KK and NC since NC1 Beta. They have said many good things about both in the past while glossing over the bad and when they did no-one here was proposing letter-writing campaigns or threatening their families.
Secondly the magazine has a reputation for being not only very good gaming-wise but also a good laugh to read. Often that will include ridiculing things they don't approve of and if that's what their readers want (which it is) then you can't blame them for providing it. I can't help but remember how many posts we've had on here praising very similar reviews and commentaries for other games which we, rightly or wrongly, felt deserved exactly the treatment NC got here.
Miss Naughty
26-04-05, 12:31
I have to agree with the review 100%. This game had so much potential (2 years a go) but none of it was realised. The bugs were never fixed and often the handling of the servers has just been downright unproffesional.
Neocron is seriously dated now compared to a lot of the new games coming out. It simply can't compete no matter how good the pvp might be if it didn't crash all the time.
The server populations are so pityfully low that any new players joining will find it a lonely and souless experience.
I can't see the international release happening unless some of those 2 year old bugs are fixed. Publishers really don't want the grief of supporting an unreliable game that doesn't really have the potential to see any realistic returns.
I enjoyed my time in NC, I have some fond memories but I was always waiting for the next patch to add some interesting new content or fix some annoying bugs - but it never happened. I felt let down and feeling like a mug - especially since I've moved on to bigger and infinitely more reliable mmogs.
The review may seem harsh but its the reality of the situation, nothing else explains the shrinking server populations.
Jesterthegreat
26-04-05, 13:25
so who do you reckon told him to remove his LE then shot him?
wanna take bets?
Heh heh, I'll bet it was Rich from PC Gamer, to cries of "PCG ownz joo!" or some such.. ;)
Jesterthegreat
26-04-05, 14:00
Heh heh, I'll bet it was Rich from PC Gamer, to cries of "PCG ownz joo!" or some such.. ;)
yeah...
well...
venom pwns him
yeah...
well...
venom pwns him
but MASK pwns venom
And no doubt, Shatner pwns MASK.. You know what they say; There's always someone better ;)
enigma_b17
26-04-05, 15:35
what about da hasselhof?
Heavyporker
26-04-05, 15:54
Psh.
Moving on...
Moving on to what? I think what needs to be said has been said - we've all laughed/cried/gaped at the reviews, and I'm sure KK have either taken it on board, or dismissed the reviews entirely as is their prerogative.
As this thread is either going to continue off topic like a derailed express train or devolve into some equally off-topic Pc Gamer vs Pc Zone discussion, I think someone should close this thread.
.. but before they do, hey, at least the PC Format review wasn't too bad.
Scanner Darkly
26-04-05, 16:43
.. but before they do, hey, at least the PC Format review wasn't too bad.
I think they gave it a more realistic score and review, but it wasn't exactly singing NC2s praises either...
heres the complete article http://www.pcformat.co.uk/reviews/default.asp?pagetypeid=2&articleid=35057&subsectionid=680
And here's just the text
Like the latter Matrix movies, Neocron 2 is packed with promise, yet hard to love. Coming on like Deus Ex meets Everquest, it’s nearly unique in that it’s a sci-fi MMOG set in the first-person, meaning that the game is more immediate and gripping than it is in many MMOGs, most of which rely more on point-and-click combat ‘management’ rather than twitch strafing and dodging.
The first Neocron was disappointing; not so much because it erred on the side of being buggy, but more because it fell into the age-old traps of MMOGs – grind and low-level rat-whacking, for example. And while Neocron 2 looks virtually identical with its simple textures and blocky models, it offers far more action from the off. There’s a broad range of careers for new players – we opted to begin life as a grenade launcher-wielding soldier working for the City Mercs - and within minutes, we were blasting droids for cash and XP.
The community is friendly, and getting to grips with the game’s foibles Like the latter Matrix movies, Neocron 2 is packed with promise, yet hard to love. Coming on like Deus Ex meets Everquest, it’s early unique in that it’s a sci-fi MMOG set in is made all the smoother because people are very willing to help if you ask them through the chatbar. And hey – the client’s free to download, which is a pleasant surprise.
But most of us don’t have time to play more than one or two MMOs, and there are far more accomplished, impressive and fun games out there – like EVE, WoW and EQII. Neocron 2 is no technical marvel, and so it ends difficult to recommend.
Al Bickham
kinda amusing that pc format say its a friendly community, while the other one is basically comparing us to the scum of the universe
kinda amusing that pc format say its a friendly community, while the other one is basically comparing us to the scum of the universe
Mos Eisley anyone?
*dodo, dodo, dodododo.....*
kinda amusing that pc format say its a friendly community, while the other one is basically comparing us to the scum of the universe
Actually, in my experience in real life, the scum of the universe are often very friendly, nice, and helpful people. When you're one of the scum of the universe, you keep a friendly face on, lest someone object to your face and remove it. When you're one of the scum of the universe, you get in the habit of helping other people who are down and out, because some day you'll need help, too.
It's the prissy upper-class who think that they'll never need anyone who are total bastards to each other and even worse to people they think are "below" them. It's just that when they stick a knife in your back, they do it politely.
Scanner Darkly
26-04-05, 17:50
I'm not sure I understand Brad.
nice, polite people=scum of the universe
nasty, unpleasant people=??
Are you saying non-chavs are to be feared and loathed? Is it wrong to have manners and treat others with respect? Not every nice person is a Machievellian manipulator of doom.
That's probably the bleakest post I have ever read Brad, but something tells me you're just playin'.
Brad = Peasant.
The PC Format review says the client is free to download...but I thought you still have to pay after the trial a retail purchase price. Still, its a much better review, I like the likening it to Matrix.
At the risk of sticking my neck out maybe KK need to re evaluate the 'NC2 isnt for pussies' stance if they hope/want to increase player numbers and make NC2 a success
My point is that while devoid of Elves et al. NC2 is [now] lacking in anything beyond mindless levelling (to participate in PvP) and PvP (or allied killing as it seems to be most of the time), the only other game I know of that tried to survive 100% on PvP gameplay in a persistant world is Planetside and I know that SOE have had a hard time maintaining player numbers there too! (while I like playing Planetside I refuse to pay month on month for it)
Perhaps if NC tried to cater to other play styles (by enabling LE players to form 'LE only' clans & events that arent totally PvP based for example) then players might be attracted to the game who arent [primarily or initially] interested in PvP (shock horror you might get people playing to RP or tradeskill!) - however I fear that the verbal treatment of these 'pussies' would drive them from the game as described in the review despite any concessions to other play styles made by the devs. Game mechanics wont stop people being assholes!
Other MMORPGs survive based on allowing diverse playstyles to encourage different types of players, while one can see this as a bad thing (it does everything just none of it very well) I obviously dont need to point out the problems with only catering to one playstyle (especially if you dont do it that well) and I'll point to the playerbase of SWG and its reaction to tomorrows combat upgrade (or downgrade as its being referred to) to illustrate my point further.
... That's probably the bleakest post I have ever read Brad, but something tells me you're just playin'.
Not just playing at all.
Because of my disabilities, I've bounced from relative wealth, well, upper middle class really, what I think of as professional class, down to absolute grinding homeless poverty. And back. And forth, several times. In that time, I've lived in some fairly nice neighborhoods, and an awful lot of really, really awful ones, including at least one that my friends wouldn't enter after after sunset.
I also have a taste for weirdness in all its forms, a fascination with subcultures, a fondness for people who make their lives and their living outside the mainstream. So I've spent a lot of time being next-door neighbors to, or hanging out with, a lot of the various kinds of people that you'd probably think of as the scum of the universe. Gang-bangers. Welfare cheats. Biker gangs. Carnies. Strippers. Satan-worshipping cults, and milder occultists of all stripes. Drug addicts. Drug dealers. Tattoo artists and tattoo collectors. Leg-breakers for the mob. Homeless people and squatter gangs. Road dogs, who really are the modern hobos. Crazy people of all kinds. Anarchist terrorists. Illegal aliens and chronic perma-temps living 6, 8, and 10 to a house on sub-minimum wages. Unemployed garage bands, starving club DJs, and no-name gangster rappers. And with almost no exceptions, while they all put up a scary front around middle and upper class strangers to keep them away, among themselves they were the nicest people I've ever met. They care about their neighbors and friends, take care of each other even at high risk and/or what is for them significant personal risk. When not obviously joking, they're uniformly polite and supportive to each other. They looked bad to middle class eyes, and some of them even smelled bad by middle class standards, and quite a few of them had scarily bad teeth. (Quality dental care is hard to come by in the underclass.) But once you got past that, they were the nicest, most saintly people I've ever met.
I've also spent a lot, and I mean a lot of time in the upper middle class. I worked along side, lived along side, and socialized with management at all levels, corporate lawyers, college professors, pastors, senior engineers, surgeons, professional investors, successful athletes, and even a few CEOs. They dressed well, lived in huge and nearly-immaculate houses, smelled nice, and took tremendous care to keep up polite manners and professional appearances when in public. They all thought of themselves as pious, Christian, religious, and nearly all of them were regular church-goers. And almost without exception, nearly all of them were, by my standards, vicious psychopaths. The long knives seldom stayed hidden long. They cared about no one other than their own families; to be thought of as a saintly person in those communities, one only had to care about and/or care for only 2 or 3 people who weren't family. The things they say about each other behind each other's backs would curdle milk. Their lives are a constant game of one-downmanship. Why? Because everybody is already doing everything they can to get ahead, so the only way to guarantee you get ahead is to undermine or actively sabotage everyone else. And sabotage each other, and even their own neighborhoods and their own companies, to make themselves look better than the rest and someone else worse, is something that nearly all of them do. And none of them can be trusted to return a wallet with cash in it.
Yes, there is random physical violence among the scum of the universe. It's seldom serious or permanent, it's just part of they way of life. There are rules to that violence, ceremonial qualities to it as esoteric but important as kabuki or the tea ceremony. Yes, by contrast, the masters of the universe will tell you that there's no violence in their world, because they don't think of emotional abuse up to and including date räpe as violence.
I'm not going to say that there weren't any psychopathic monsters among the scum of the universe, and I'm not going to say that there weren't any saintly people that I met among what used to be called "the quality." But what I am saying is that actually vicious people are very rare in marginal and/or underclass communities I've known, and genuinely caring individuals equally rare among the upper middle class and what few of the wealthy I've known. And it is my theory that this is because those who think of themselves as winners in society think that they're invulnerable and will never need anyone else, whereas those who scrape out a bare living on the margins of society know that they'll need the kindness of strangers, or near-strangers, for the rest of their lives.
This would be completely off-topic were it not for three things.
First of all, the reviewer may have looked at the heavy-duty PvP content in this game, and the faintly sleazy atmosphere, and the fact that all 12 factions in this game are on the side of genuine evil, and in his mind the parallels between our community and fictional hell-holes like Mos Eisley Spaceport or actual hell-holes like biker gangs or punk-rock squats must have been obvious. People are objecting that unlike in other games, though, here they found that other players were genuinely helpful to each other. What I'm saying is that these two perceptions are not contradictory.
Secondly, that's cyberpunk, baby! The Mirrorshades Group, the writers' group that invented the cyberpunk genre, who wrote this stuff before it became a cliché to be copied, had a number of slogans, but the most important of them was, "The street finds its own uses for things." The original cyberpunk "classics," the defining tales of the genre from William Gibson and Bruce Sterling and Paul diFillipo and Rudy Rucker and Walter John Williams were nearly all about the scum of the universe, the marginalized and poor and the criminal classes. And it portrayed those people as the heros, gritty heros but heros nonetheless, and the wealthy and powerful and cleanly polished corporate types who controlled their universe as amoral at best and monstrous at worse, an evil to be struggled against. They portrayed class warfare as a moral imperative, something so important that even if the best you could hope for was to die an ignominious death at the hands of the powerful and immune, you were still a hero, because at least you tried to stop evil, which is more than most people have the courage to do. (Hence the huge literary debt that all cyberpunk authors have to the bohemian, hardboiled detective, and film noir genres, which share that theme.)
And finally, but probably least importantly, my perception of the different social and moral values of the underclass and criminal class versus the professional and upper classes has everything in the world to do with why my character is Tsunami for life.
Dr Strange
27-04-05, 15:59
Not just playing at all.
Because of my disabilities, I've bounced from relative wealth, well, upper middle class really, what I think of as professional class, down to absolute grinding homeless poverty. And back. And forth, several times. In that time, I've lived in some fairly nice neighborhoods, and an awful lot of really, really awful ones, including at least one that my friends wouldn't enter after after sunset.
I also have a taste for weirdness in all its forms, a fascination with subcultures, a fondness for people who make their lives and their living outside the mainstream. So I've spent a lot of time being next-door neighbors to, or hanging out with, a lot of the various kinds of people that you'd probably think of as the scum of the universe. Gang-bangers. Welfare cheats. Biker gangs. Carnies. Strippers. Satan-worshipping cults, and milder occultists of all stripes. Drug addicts. Drug dealers. Tattoo artists and tattoo collectors. Leg-breakers for the mob. Homeless people and squatter gangs. Road dogs, who really are the modern hobos. Crazy people of all kinds. Anarchist terrorists. Illegal aliens and chronic perma-temps living 6, 8, and 10 to a house on sub-minimum wages. Unemployed garage bands, starving club DJs, and no-name gangster rappers. And with almost no exceptions, while they all put up a scary front around middle and upper class strangers to keep them away, among themselves they were the nicest people I've ever met. They care about their neighbors and friends, take care of each other even at high risk and/or what is for them significant personal risk. When not obviously joking, they're uniformly polite and supportive to each other. They looked bad to middle class eyes, and some of them even smelled bad by middle class standards, and quite a few of them had scarily bad teeth. (Quality dental care is hard to come by in the underclass.) But once you got past that, they were the nicest, most saintly people I've ever met.
I've also spent a lot, and I mean a lot of time in the upper middle class. I worked along side, lived along side, and socialized with management at all levels, corporate lawyers, college professors, pastors, senior engineers, surgeons, professional investors, successful athletes, and even a few CEOs. They dressed well, lived in huge and nearly-immaculate houses, smelled nice, and took tremendous care to keep up polite manners and professional appearances when in public. They all thought of themselves as pious, Christian, religious, and nearly all of them were regular church-goers. And almost without exception, nearly all of them were, by my standards, vicious psychopaths. The long knives seldom stayed hidden long. They cared about no one other than their own families; to be thought of as a saintly person in those communities, one only had to care about and/or care for only 2 or 3 people who weren't family. The things they say about each other behind each other's backs would curdle milk. Their lives are a constant game of one-downmanship. Why? Because everybody is already doing everything they can to get ahead, so the only way to guarantee you get ahead is to undermine or actively sabotage everyone else. And sabotage each other, and even their own neighborhoods and their own companies, to make themselves look better than the rest and someone else worse, is something that nearly all of them do. And none of them can be trusted to return a wallet with cash in it.
Yes, there is random physical violence among the scum of the universe. It's seldom serious or permanent, it's just part of they way of life. There are rules to that violence, ceremonial qualities to it as esoteric but important as kabuki or the tea ceremony. Yes, by contrast, the masters of the universe will tell you that there's no violence in their world, because they don't think of emotional abuse up to and including date räpe as violence.
I'm not going to say that there weren't any psychopathic monsters among the scum of the universe, and I'm not going to say that there weren't any saintly people that I met among what used to be called "the quality." But what I am saying is that actually vicious people are very rare in marginal and/or underclass communities I've known, and genuinely caring individuals equally rare among the upper middle class and what few of the wealthy I've known. And it is my theory that this is because those who think of themselves as winners in society think that they're invulnerable and will never need anyone else, whereas those who scrape out a bare living on the margins of society know that they'll need the kindness of strangers, or near-strangers, for the rest of their lives.
This would be completely off-topic were it not for three things.
First of all, the reviewer may have looked at the heavy-duty PvP content in this game, and the faintly sleazy atmosphere, and the fact that all 12 factions in this game are on the side of genuine evil, and in his mind the parallels between our community and fictional hell-holes like Mos Eisley Spaceport or actual hell-holes like biker gangs or punk-rock squats must have been obvious. People are objecting that unlike in other games, though, here they found that other players were genuinely helpful to each other. What I'm saying is that these two perceptions are not contradictory.
Secondly, that's cyberpunk, baby! The Mirrorshades Group, the writers' group that invented the cyberpunk genre, who wrote this stuff before it became a cliché to be copied, had a number of slogans, but the most important of them was, "The street finds its own uses for things." The original cyberpunk "classics," the defining tales of the genre from William Gibson and Bruce Sterling and Paul diFillipo and Rudy Rucker and Walter John Williams were nearly all about the scum of the universe, the marginalized and poor and the criminal classes. And it portrayed those people as the heros, gritty heros but heros nonetheless, and the wealthy and powerful and cleanly polished corporate types who controlled their universe as amoral at best and monstrous at worse, an evil to be struggled against. They portrayed class warfare as a moral imperative, something so important that even if the best you could hope for was to die an ignominious death at the hands of the powerful and immune, you were still a hero, because at least you tried to stop evil, which is more than most people have the courage to do. (Hence the huge literary debt that all cyberpunk authors have to the bohemian, hardboiled detective, and film noir genres, which share that theme.)
And finally, but probably least importantly, my perception of the different social and moral values of the underclass and criminal class versus the professional and upper classes has everything in the world to do with why my character is Tsunami for life.
I'd have gone completely crazy having had to live like that at times. I doubt I'd last 5 minutes living next to honest-to-goodness gang-bangers let alone some of those others mentioned.
Course some people like living certain ways :shrug:
Bugs Gunny
27-04-05, 16:05
Brad.... a grim, realistic post on society as it is. Five star.
The review is exxagerated for some points, but otherwise, is spot on.
If people didn't hand me hundreds of thousands of credits, i would be gone before the free trial. The noob experience had to be nice and friendly otherwise you get a bad taste in your mouth
My account is suspended and on May 7th when my account get activated, I will pay the purchase price for time played after free trial(its only fair) and quit for good... unless this mystical patch fixes the game so much I'll keep playing. Doubt it, but one can hope.
The review is exxagerated for some points, but otherwise, is spot on.
If people didn't hand me hundreds of thousands of credits, i would be gone before the free trial. The noob experience had to be nice and friendly otherwise you get a bad taste in your mouth
My account is suspended and on May 7th when my account get activated, I will pay the purchase price for time played after free trial(its only fair) and quit for good... unless this mystical patch fixes the game so much I'll keep playing. Doubt it, but one can hope.
Thad, thing is, have you joined a clan or made a combat char ? Neocron is different to other mmo's in the way that at the end of the day leveling means dick all really, it takes a day to cap a PE, 2 or 3 to fully cap a tank, spies and monks a little longer due to INT XP, however neocron is totally PVP based, have you OP warred ? Held onto OPs etc, have you been leveling and some smartass attacks your party and felt the feeling when its you that is left standing after taking him down ? Thats what makes neocron for me... Ignore the bugs and feel that adrenaline rush of getting a kill ;)
Thad, thing is, have you joined a clan or made a combat char ? Neocron is different to other mmo's in the way that at the end of the day leveling means dick all really, it takes a day to cap a PE, 2 or 3 to fully cap a tank, spies and monks a little longer due to INT XP, however neocron is totally PVP based, have you OP warred ? Held onto OPs etc, have you been leveling and some smartass attacks your party and felt the feeling when its you that is left standing after taking him down ? Thats what makes neocron for me... Ignore the bugs and feel that adrenaline rush of getting a kill ;)
While thats true, getting to decent level in PVP is the problem. I'm waiting until lvl 30 to take the LE for my combat character.
yes you can cap a tank or a PE quick. but not when you start from absoutly nothing man. go start on the 1slot german server knowing absoultly no one at all and see how long it takes you to fully cap a tank.
yes you can cap a tank or a PE quick. but not when you start from absoutly nothing man. go start on the 1slot german server knowing absoultly no one at all and see how long it takes you to fully cap a tank.
I went to uranus with 100k and capped my MC PE in 2 days, If he's been given alot of cash then he can get the equipment for leveling, only main problem is getting stuff like the epic chips and some decent pvp rares, but thats where clans help out alot ;)
thats why i said a german server the language barrier makes it closer to the noob experience. although you can get along pretty decently useing english and learning basic german terms.
Scanner Darkly
27-04-05, 18:57
Thad, thing is, have you joined a clan or made a combat char ? Neocron is different to other mmo's in the way that at the end of the day leveling means dick all really, it takes a day to cap a PE, 2 or 3 to fully cap a tank, spies and monks a little longer due to INT XP, however neocron is totally PVP based, have you OP warred ?
I'm getting out of here in my roflcopter. Fully cap a tank in 2 or 3? Cap a PE in a day? Have I been playing some bugged out horrible alternative version of nc? Are you talking about the testserver?
What kind of a nimrod would spend 72 solid hours leveling? I admit technically it is possible
if you have all the weapons/ money/ armour you need
if you have a team/ppu
if you know all the right spots to level
if you don't sleep and want to trigger epillepsy or light brain damage
I find your grinding fanaticism disturbing Kozmos, but anyone who has capped a PE in a day (took me around 3 weeks of very dedicated leveling with a bunch of apus + ppu) or a tank in 2 or 3 (won't cap con until I grind some WoC levels) let me just say :rolleyes:
Also you can quite happily PvP and do OPs and whatnot with a tank around /55 or a monk around the same level if you know what youre doing
I'm getting out of here in my roflcopter. Fully cap a tank in 2 or 3? Cap a PE in a day? Have I been playing some bugged out horrible alternative version of nc? Are you talking about the testserver?
What kind of a nimrod would spend 72 solid hours leveling? I admit technically it is possible
if you have all the weapons/ money/ armour you need
if you have a team/ppu
if you know all the right spots to level
if you don't sleep and want to trigger epillepsy or light brain damage
I find your grinding fanaticism disturbing Kozmos, but anyone who has capped a PE in a day (took me around 3 weeks of very dedicated leveling with a bunch of apus + ppu) or a tank in 2 or 3 (won't cap con until I grind some WoC levels) let me just say :rolleyes:
Also you can quite happily PvP and do OPs and whatnot with a tank around /55 or a monk around the same level if you know what youre doing
Ive fully capped a PE in 6 hours :I yea we built the equipment beforehand and had a PPU with me for caves, but its possible if you have the resources and friends willing to help
can you really argue with wat the guy put in his review?
when you first logged on nc tell me who actually knew where to go lol...
I'd have gone completely crazy having had to live like that at times. I doubt I'd last 5 minutes living next to honest-to-goodness gang-bangers let alone some of those others mentioned.
Course some people like living certain ways :shrug:
I, on the other hand, get severe panic attacks from the more destructive forms of office politics, where people casually seek to permanently destroy the careers, and leave the children homeless, of people they chat cheerfully with over lunch.
Compared to the so-called professionals in your average cubical maze (http://www.cubefigures.com/), gang bangers are actually quite easy to get along with. Don't mess with their business, treat them like fellow human beings, and they're as sweet as can be.
Scanner Darkly
27-04-05, 21:51
can you really argue with wat the guy put in his review?
when you first logged on nc tell me who actually knew where to go lol...
When I first started there was no MC5, just got dumped in my apartment and ran around Viarosso for a few days.
Eventually found Plaza 1 and then all was well :)
But yeah, NC had and I think still has the steepest learning curve of any game I've ever played, ever. I would think that a masters in theoretical astrophysics is easier to "get into" than NC.
Darth Slayer
28-04-05, 17:55
Well dunno if any UK peeps read this erm interesting review but NC 2 Scored a whole 24 % and I think the reviewer was being nice giving that score... :eek:
What he said about the Terra community was to me hilarious you nasty nasty yobbos..... :lol:
Scorpius.
yeah how hell did you miss 15 pages
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=124610
Scaramanga
28-04-05, 22:35
Just got the mag and thought id have a look on forums to see if anyone else has read it yet.
As far as the reviewer is concerned with his attitude towards the community here; read his other reviews and "Neverquest" articles for a better idea about his general attitude towards other gamers. I'm not going to flame him for it, but please do dig out your old copies of PC zone and have a read of his Neverquest articles.
o shit.
You ever bought a game rated below 60% ??
I wouldn't even look at the bloody review, just scan the page see the % score and move on....New player injection ..er..maybe not then.
I have been waiting for the release in anticipation of a major sort out of this game but even if they sort every problem ever stated here on these forums No One is going to play it now :(
A very sad day...
I, on the other hand, get severe panic attacks from the more destructive forms of office politics, where people casually seek to permanently destroy the careers, and leave the children homeless, of people they chat cheerfully with over lunch.
Compared to the so-called professionals in your average cubical maze (http://www.cubefigures.com/), gang bangers are actually quite easy to get along with. Don't mess with their business, treat them like fellow human beings, and they're as sweet as can be.
Not wanting to go off-topic further but :
Tbh Brad you're just as guilty of repeating a blinkered stereotype here.
I've seen "both sides of the tracks" as well (albeit not as dramatically as you describe) and I've seen as much good and bad in both sides*. Those in the "lower classes" you admire so much are just as eager to get the knives out if they think they can escape that life as the "upper-classes" are to avoid ending up there. Likewise there is no shortage of honest generosity in the rich it just tends to be less noticed by those who don't want to look for it.
People are people wherever they live and however they dress.
* - Actually most of the truly repellent acts I've seen were commited by the lower-classes on themselves and those around them but as you say the nature of the crimes varies rather than the intent or outcome as you move up or down the ladder.
Gotterdammerung
29-04-05, 17:00
freud ?
freud ?
Beats flaming you guys doesn't it? :)
Wouldnt it have ben quicker to just say
"Every human has the capacity to be an asshole"?
Where 'asshole' represents to a lesser or greater degree the unpleasent side of human behaviour
Put people on the Internet where they are [at least superficially] anonymous and they are more likely to be an asshole because they likelyhood of repercussions is significantly reduced (if not eliminated entirely)
can you really argue with wat the guy put in his review?
Nope, not at all.
Its a tad harsh and a pretty unprofessional review in terms of style and objectivity. However the crux of the review is fair.
Nid can bang on about the game not being for 'pussies' but here's the sad fact: KK needs money to keep neocron going and to continue to develop it. You won't get enough money with an ever decreasing player base. Those pussies are your future, they are the people who come here with no preconceptions and need to feel a connection with the game. Very, very, few new players will genuinely want to invest hard effort, patience and commitment in something that's supposed to be rewarding but continues to deliver confusion and frustration.
Niddy, take a trip to your local Starbucks and inhale... you and all your KK buddies need a little wake up call
You edited my leaving post for 'flaming'... I didn't swear, hell I was a lot more objective in my 'final' (ish) comments than that reviewer was, but sadly Niddy, my old chum, you can't edit the mags. Lets face - you've not had a good review yet, which means your chance of an increasing player base is looking grim. Worse still, they aren't being harsh, they are looking at your game as an outsider will. That should be the perspective you need to try if you're serious about growing your population.
You had the niche of being the only real FPS based MMO out there - but the hardcore FPS players won't touch this with a barge poll simply because its not on the edge anymore - its old hat and widely derided. You need a new target populace and your complete lack of creativity in attracting a different breed of player only further compounds your chances.
Ah well - I stopped by to see how things were going, looking through the forums its paradoxically rewarding and depressing to see things are still as shit as ever. At least I've not forked out any more cash for this dross, but this game continues to occupy top spot in the graveyard of MMOs for 'what might have been'
Good luck and last one out you know what to do.
Rith
PS
I quit 6 months ago, shouldn't I be banned or something?
Scanner Darkly
30-04-05, 06:23
Hi Rith, hope things are working out for you dude. We had some good times in 101st/Phoenix and don't your forget it.
I hope that the Stormbots make you eat your words in a few months - then again I never was a realist. Still there are still plenty of good people in game and many vets have come back recently.
What can I say I'm amazed as you are that NC is still going, but there's still some fun to be had.
BTW I think your old clan is still in the citycom DB :D
PS: guess I could have PMed sorry brain is slow today
i dont know the reviewer.. last i heard he had four legs and a tail and purred a lot..
but would you rather have him sugar coat a bad experience?.. yes i can hear all you fanboi's yelling "yes".. but me personally if the dude had a bad time, id like to hear it, if the dude had a bad experience, thats what he had, to what extent.. we can only assume from his review..
seriously if you watch a movie thats totally awful you're not going to go around saying, it "wasnt that bad".. "i think it was just ok".. no, you're going to go around saying .. " it was fucken crap".. "totally shit, waste of my fucken money", etc..
calling the spade as he see's the spade, is far better than bout of verbal diarrhoea and some air freshener
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