View Full Version : Neocron BDOY review by PCGamer May Edition
I wrote this as a response to another thread but instead of hijacking it I decided to make a separate thread.
This is a wake up call for KK to get things right with the International release of Neocron: BDOY and to make some big improvements.
Quote:
Unfortunately May's edtion of PCGamer gave Neocron 2: BDOY 58%.
One of the lines read something like "The first time I reviewed Neocron I said it had huge potential and was something to keep an eye on. Unfortunately its obvious with this standalone expansion that its potential has never been reached. Why am I being asked to pay to play the same game over again!"
Theres another bit that says about the game being outdated and would need an overhaul to bring it up to date something which BDOY didn't do.
I'm most likely gonna come back cos I miss some of the people, but I do hope with the international release we get some major updates shortly after.
Hell port this game to the Source engine, do it right and you'll have killed that Neocron inspired Source Mod Hostile planet. Which is something you need to think about that mod is attracting alot of Neocron Vets, and there is high hopes it will take over from Neocron's huge potential and actually realise some of it.
KK need to look at the communities suggestions for gameplay changes. At this point reverting back to pre-patch 164 (Specialisation Patch I think) would probably make the game better.
Dribble Joy has made some very interesting suggestions: The Big Fix 1.0 (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=123024)
Though I don't agree with them all its very PE biased in places (and I have 3 PE's) but it deserves a read and alot of attention from KK.
edit: Just noticed this thread as pointed out by DJ: Neocron 2 Interview (http://www.ggmania.com/full.php3?show=5725)
Maybe they are doing a complete overhaul, if they finally get it right I'm sure alot of old vets may come back to the NeoCrack!
That review surprised me. I have no idea why they chose to review the product months before it was released, especially when you consider that one of its biggest criticisms (the newbie experience) was already in the process of being re-developed for the UK (and international) market. Still, that's life.
N
Scanner Darkly
15-04-05, 18:36
Hell port this game to the Source engine, do it right and you'll have killed that Neocron inspired Source Mod Hostile planet. Which is something you need to think about that mod is attracting alot of Neocron Vets, and there is high hopes it will take over from Neocron's huge potential and actually realise some of it.
This is probably easier said than done (and a host of other cliches). Even if the technical aspects of such a port could be overcome, there is still the question of licensing the Source engine, which wouldn't be cheap. (as this is a commercial game and not a HL2 mod, it wouldn't be free)
If this were ever to happen I would eat my hat and do it with a smile!
This is probably easier said than done (and a host of other cliches). Even if the technical aspects of such a port could be overcome, there is still the question of licensing the Source engine, which wouldn't be cheap. (as this is a commercial game and not a HL2 mod, it wouldn't be free)
If this were ever to happen I would eat my hat and do it with a smile!
Yeah I never said it would be easy or cheap but it would probably be cheaper than trying to build a new engine.
That review surprised me. I have no idea why they chose to review the product months before it was released, especially when you consider that one of its biggest criticisms (the newbie experience) was already in the process of being re-developed for the UK (and international) market. Still, that's life.
N
Thats a statement that kind of confuses me. We payed for Neocron 2 quite awhile ago and most of the updates that where mentioned in the interview are already ingame.
So how is it not realised yet?
Also is the graphics engine getting a further update or is what we've got actually the updated engine your talking about?
I wrote this as a response to another thread but instead of hijacking it I decided to make a separate thread.
This is a wake up call for KK to get things right with the International release of Neocron: BDOY and to make some big improvements.
Quote:
Unfortunately May's edtion of PCGamer gave Neocron 2: BDOY 58%.
!
Hmm Fair review
Considering the ammount of bugs still ingame, 58% is kinda fair, get rid of bugs that are present since nc1 and youll get 85%+ reviews.
Dribble Joy
15-04-05, 19:55
I'd like to point out that my BP thread/idea is only the first draft, and is not complete. Things need to be refined a lot, especially the PPU options.
I'm also trying to work on more tanky/monk stuff.
Well I believe PC Gamer do like to review games before the publisher actually sends them a copy (unless some one at Atari has jumped the gun).. but if they've reviewed what we are playing right now.. I think that score might not be far from the truth.
Maybe they tried to review the game, but got refused by C2P so they've just had to go on screenshots.
And @ Nidhogg: The boxed copies may not be out, but as far as MMORPGS go - if you can buy it online then it's released. If you don't want it considered released, take us all back to NC1 and send NC2 back to beta (where it probably should be) - oh, and bring back Worldpay while you're at it please.
I'm sure what ever small excuse of an amount you're using to justify using C2P instead of Worldpay isn't more than you're now losing through customers who are unable to sign up / renew because of C2P's pure crapiness.
Athon Solo
Dribble Joy
15-04-05, 20:26
MMORPG ratings are invariably based on the quality of the newbie experience, rather than the main leveling and end game content.
In NC's case, this can't have helped.
I have no idea why they chose to review the product months before it was released
Months before?
PC Gamer, like its better counterpart PC Zone and I believe many other UK gaming mags, operates one month in advance. So the May issue would be the one released in April etc. If there release date is sometime in the next week (since a week has gone by since it was said Atari assured you guys it'd be in the next two weeks) then this would mean it was reviewed probably between one month and half a month in advance. If they didnt do this then the review would only come out after the game was released, which imo isnt the best idea.
Either you're exaggerating a little or the INT release date has been pushed back by at least a month (hopefully that's not the case, but thats what 'months before' conveys to me). Which would it be?
darknessfairy
15-04-05, 20:58
That review surprised me. I have no idea why they chose to review the product months before it was released, especially when you consider that one of its biggest criticisms (the newbie experience) was already in the process of being re-developed for the UK (and international) market. Still, that's life.
N
what do you mean? months before release? it was this months review no? so are you telling us that it isn't going to be released for months?
Yes,and PC gamer has a repuation for review unfinished betas and the like, too.
Maester Seymour
15-04-05, 21:02
If NC2 is supposed to be released this month, whats the problem? They're reviewing the game how it currently is... :o
what do you mean? months before release? it was this months review no?
No, it's either last issue or the issue before. Bear in mind that in order to effectively review a MMORPG you need to spend a good few weeks playing it which means the game as reviewed is at least two months old.
N
No, it's either last issue or the issue before. Bear in mind that in order to effectively review a MMORPG you need to spend a good few weeks playing it which means the game as reviewed is at least two months old.
N
A good few weeks? Then how come the trial is only 10 days? Shouldn't the trial last long enough to effectively review a MMORPG?
And in other words you're saying they probably reviewed the game shortly after it left beta and went gold, and has been RELEASED online (which for an MMORPG, I would say, is generally considered as being RELEASED <full stop>).
Athon Solo
No, it's either last issue or the issue before. Bear in mind that in order to effectively review a MMORPG you need to spend a good few weeks playing it which means the game as reviewed is at least two months old.
N
If this is from the May edition of the magazine as the title suggests I'm afraid I have to disagree with that. As I said in my other post, PC Gamer operates one month in advance. So the May issue would be the one released in April etc. If there release date is sometime in the next week (since a week has gone by since it was said Atari assured you guys it'd be in the next two weeks) then this would mean it was reviewed probably between one month and half a month in advance.
No magazine is so far behind that it would release a May edition two months ago as you say. Its a monthly magazine, and thus the issue before last would have been released in February, saying the May edition was released in February is highly improbable and most likely untrue.
If there release date is sometime in the next week (since a week has gone by since it was said Atari assured you guys it'd be in the next two weeks) then this would mean it was reviewed probably between one month and half a month in advance.
Either I don't understand what you're trying to say (which is probably the case) or this makes absolutely no sense at all. Regardless of what is printed on the top of the magazine if NC2 is released in the UK next week (hypothetically speaking), and if I read the review in the magazine well over a month ago, how can PC Gamer's NC2 review have been made "half a month in advance"?
N
Certainly possible that I'm not making much sense. I'll try to explain it better.
PC Gamer is released monthly, and is one month ahead of itself (i.e. the December edition released in November etc). If, as the title says, this article was in the May edition, it would have been released probably within the last half of March (usually the last week in the month is PC Zone is any guideline) or in April itself.
This very fact (that it is one month ahead, no more) means that the May edition of the magazine wouldnt have been released before around halfway through March.
I dont see how you could have read the review well over a month ago when this particular issue would not have been released a month ago, it would have been later than that. Either it wasnt in the May edition of the magazine, and the title of the thread is wrong, or you're wrong, as there is no way the May edition would have been released over a month ago, if it had been that would mean the magazine was two months ahead.
Looking at that post now, and actually checking what the date is (i lost count :lol: ) I realise that half a month is probably a bit improbable. That should probably be between one month and one month and a half (considering the mag would have been released at the earliest in the middle of last month).
darknessfairy
15-04-05, 22:55
No, it's either last issue or the issue before. Bear in mind that in order to effectively review a MMORPG you need to spend a good few weeks playing it which means the game as reviewed is at least two months old.
N
fair enough, i see your point, i took your original post as to mean that they published a review months before release of a game. as in they published the review in say april for a september release....
also another thing that is annoying me, is the fact that the ads in pcgamer still state that nc2 is being released, or sorry, should have been released 25th March... and we're nearly a month past that now...T'is not false advertising?
I dont see how you could have read the review well over a month ago when this particular issue would not have been released a month ago, it would have been later than that. Either it wasnt in the May edition of the magazine, and the title of the thread is wrong, or you're wrong, as there is no way the May edition would have been released over a month ago, if it had been that would mean the magazine was two months ahead.
I don't believe Nidhogg is saying he's read it - he's saying the actual reviewing must have occured before when it was released (say in April) for about a month before.
Therefore they could not possibly have reviewed the upcoming international-release version of the game.
Right?
Eddie
But NC2 is released all be it not in boxed form. So what would they be missing from the review?
Maybe I'm completely missing the point but surely we have been playing NC2 since we upgraded and payed for it months ago?
If so how can they say its not released yet? (They talking about Boxed version, International release or is NC getting overhauled more :) )
I don't believe Nidhogg is saying he's read it - he's saying the actual reviewing must have occured before when it was released (say in April) for about a month before.
Therefore they could not possibly have reviewed the upcoming international-release version of the game.
Right?
Eddie
Its true that they couldnt have reviewed the Int Release version of the game, but Nid has said he's read it.
if I read the review in the magazine well over a month ago
trigger hurt
16-04-05, 01:09
That review surprised me. I have no idea why they chose to review the product months before it was released, especially when you consider that one of its biggest criticisms (the newbie experience) was already in the process of being re-developed for the UK (and international) market. Still, that's life.
N
Maybe they reviewed it to warn people not to play the pre International Release beta test.
I wish I'd bought a copy now to prove the date. My recollection is that this month's PC Zone has an NC2 ad in it, last month's PC Gamer had an NC2 ad in it and the NC2 review was in the PC Gamer the month before that. That would make it two months ago when the review was printed. I can't confirm that though.
N
To be honest, with or without a bad review it is going to be an uphill struggle to get people to try out the game, lets just hope when the game gets internationally released and we get the content patch comes enough people can be convinced to give it a trial run. I have already stated my intentions after the international release if no improvement is shown, well it does not look good, this really is the last train out of flopsville, please KK, catch a ride.
MMORPG ratings are invariably based on the quality of the newbie experience, rather than the main leveling and end game content.
In NC's case, this can't have helped. ...Therefore, DJ's suggestions about the big fix cannot and will not affect revewers ratings about the game, since we cannot expect someone to play the game for some months in order to revew it...
What is needed though, is a huge fix of all those bugs and particularly those syncing bugs and FREs. I will make a new thread asking from each one to give an estimate of how many FREs/sync bugs are experiencing in a day's play. I believe this could help kk indicate and solve this problem once and for all
Dr Strange
16-04-05, 07:15
That review surprised me. I have no idea why they chose to review the product months before it was released, especially when you consider that one of its biggest criticisms (the newbie experience) was already in the process of being re-developed for the UK (and international) market. Still, that's life.
N
I can somewhat agree with that, and somewhat not.
While the game has not be "officially" released, in a box form, in most major countries, KK did release it online almost 6+ months ago. When you release a product, even in a non-box form online that people can purchase and play, for almost 6 months now, most people consider it released at this point. If KK doesn't consider NC2 in it's current state released, then they should acknowledge as Beta of some kind, or Pre Release edition (i.e. not fully Gold).
And as I've said before I love the game but even so it needs a huge amount of work. Im not a stickler for graphics but the game is onpar with stuff like Soul Calibur 1, and that was in 1999, I'm not picky on eye candy but the reviewers of that are right, NC2 is virtually the same as NC1 in terms of graphics despite it's a new engine, and new player models.
I do hope for the best in NC2's future but as I've said before, I think the International Release will be the biggest letdown in terms of the "hype" and all.
I wish I'd bought a copy now to prove the date. My recollection is that this month's PC Zone has an NC2 ad in it, last month's PC Gamer had an NC2 ad in it and the NC2 review was in the PC Gamer the month before that. That would make it two months ago when the review was printed. I can't confirm that though.
N
Maybe they got the impression that if you're advertising the game, then it's ready for people to play.
And, IMO, eye candy sucks and gameplay pwns all - that's why Neocron rules. Too many other games concentrate on eye candy and flashy effects (entertainers and those spinning graphic things that they can make in SWG for example) rather than concentrating on the gameplay.
Athon Solo
That review surprised me. I have no idea why they chose to review the product months before it was released, .... please dont post things like that again. you sound like the public relation officer of KK and that ruins your reputaton. we all know NC2 IS released (since september 04) and all waiting for is the release in another part of the world that features some stuff that should be ingame a long time ago.
maybe someone should have told pcgamer that the international release offer new funktions that will only activate when the game is released.o_O
i can understand if you enter NC2 for a short test, maybe without KK help it looks the same as NC1 only with a new city attached.
€:as i say the box is out in germany, and even if they tested the game from january to now what big advance thy notice?
A good few weeks? Then how come the trial is only 10 days? Shouldn't the trial last long enough to effectively review a MMORPG?
And in other words you're saying they probably reviewed the game shortly after it left beta and went gold, and has been RELEASED online (which for an MMORPG, I would say, is generally considered as being RELEASED <full stop>).
Athon Solo erm as a potential customer 10 days are enough to decide if you'd be willing to buy and pay a monthly fee for this product. to review a game 10 days wouldn't be enough...
the obvious problem here is that KK keeps all the relevant info about the game development and current issues on the forum, which could leave someone at a loss when trying to find anything out from the official website. and when they do come on the forum 90% of what they'll see is slander.
erm as a potential customer 10 days are enough to decide if you'd be willing to buy and pay a monthly fee for this product. to review a game 10 days wouldn't be enough...
the obvious problem here is that KK keeps all the relevant info about the game development and current issues on the forum, which could leave someone at a loss when trying to find anything out from the official website. and when they do come on the forum 90% of what they'll see is slander.
Slander requires the statements to be false.
1) 75% of it is opinion, which can't be false by definition. It may be mis-/ill-informed, but it's not false.
2) The other 25% usually has atleast some element of truth.
Athon Solo
Maybe they got the impression that if you're advertising the game, then it's ready for people to play.
And, IMO, eye candy sucks and gameplay pwns all - that's why Neocron rules. Too many other games concentrate on eye candy and flashy effects (entertainers and those spinning graphic things that they can make in SWG for example) rather than concentrating on the gameplay.
Athon Solo Then, how about we return to some nice, beautifull text adventures? or text mmorgs? We could launch a simple shell, choose some font style and enjoy gameplay...
Then, how about we return to some nice, beautifull text adventures? or text mmorgs? We could launch a simple shell, choose some font style and enjoy gameplay...
If you want to play a text based MUD, there's still many around. Personally I prefer the FPS style of gameplay the Neocron offers. I was comparing to other graphical MMORPGs
Athon Solo
If you don't love pvp Neocron is not for you. I have no idea why someone would play this game after capping for very long without pvp. I have been capped for over two years and still play Neocron. Not because kk adds more content to grind on but because end game content is player created. 58% is a fair review considering pvp, kk's false release dates, complicated skill system which is impossible to be new-person friendly, and an extreme amount of bugs which many would consider unacceptable.
I'll add about the "new noobie expereince" I don't care what you tell noobs it took the community a long ass time of trial and error to make good setups and without the knowledge of the corrent numbers and point values noobs are completely lost. I don't care if kk adds "level based e-mails" or "noob missions" that won't change the fact that this games skill system is impossible to just "pick up". The noobs that make it are raised by vets, period.
If kk wants better reviews and more lasting players Neocron needs to be advertised as a PVP game. (Complicated, serious, elite, online shooter mmo) New content should be pvp based, leveling should be a fun process but only a step that which everyone gets past. If noob mob xp was increased I would see that as a improvement aswell. Grim Chaser XP seems fine... but noobs should feel like they are growning and doing new things fast in Neocron. This is not a normal mmorpg and if it was I wouldn't be here. For those that play and don't enjoy it being a pvp game I promise you that you will get very bored.
Hmmm if NC2 hasn't been released, then what did I pay for a ½ year ago? o_O
Hmmm if NC2 hasn't been released, then what did I pay for a ½ year ago? o_O
Hahahahahaha :D :D :D
Well said.
Dr Strange
16-04-05, 11:29
@Drake;
It's not so much it needs to be advertised as PVP, end game. But advertised as you have more than just mob hunting open to you. I mean theres always mob hunting/capping a character (I personally enjoy this), tradeskilling (some people like it, always a benefit to a clan), events of both GM and player created, doing things like driving vehicles or epics (side things to do when you want something else to do), and of course PVP. While I agree the end game is PVP heavily oriented, it's also not 100% the end, I mean there is potential for other end game things such as Ceres, player shops, etc (assuming they get added)
And even games with a high learning curve need some kind of "noob experience". Personally, I enjoyed the game moreso without it. Exploring, learning etc Sure after a while I stopped hunting for this or that or asking questions and just alt tabbed to SXR to find answers for stuff but I agree noobs should deal with it. However realistically, they need to have their hands held. While some of us find the learning curve a challenge and fun it can drive off potential new customers, which like any company, KK wants to keep around.
@mulle;
It's obvious the game has been "released". If Nid or some other GM/Admin says it isn't, well sorry but they are full of bullshit. The game may not be at the point of what they want for the International "Release" (i.e. a box version in stores in multiple countries), but the game was in a, some how remarkable, playable state in October (late September really) 2004 when you could purchase it online.
Look at Half Life 2. When it was "released" in America you could buy it in stores or online through the Steam client. AFAIK, other countries didn't have the same release date by at least, at least, a few weeks. Yet they could purchase the game online, through Steam, and play it. It wasn't "released" in their countries yet but it was released none the less. Neocron 2 is the same. It's been avaible for almost 7 months now (around the 28th of April will be 7 months right?), and as said if KK doesn't consider this currently as "released" then it must be accepted as either a Pre-Gold release or a still running Beta (05?).
Reviewed now or after international release the game aint goin get a good review.
No point reviewing a game after everyone else has gone out and purchased it telling them its shit when they already have known that for a month. People pay a lot of money for games its nice to know which ones are worth buying you see.
And I dont honestly believe what comes with international release is goin to boost the ratings by a lot.
Of course, it's also possible that Atari passed on the International NC2 Release Candiate (Which in theory, KK would have finished some time ago..) as a review copy to the magazines. Some will go ahead and review that, others will wait until it's on the shelves.
we all know NC2 IS released (since september 04) and all waiting for is the release in another part of the world that features some stuff that should be ingame a long time ago.
Yes, that part of the world happens to be the part of the world where the review was printed. NC2 has not yet been released in the UK and when it is it will not be the same game that was reviewed in the UK's biggest PC games magazine. That concerns me greatly.
As for sounding like a public relations officer, what do you want me to sound like? It's my job to liaise with the community and that responsibility is two-fold:
1) To appreciate the concerns of the community, communicate those concerns to the relevant people and track their resolution (where ever possible)
2) To seek to increase the exposure and improve the image of the game in the wider community, whether that be the forums, news portals, media interviews etc.
It's my job to be concerned.
N
I seriously think you need to hire a PR officer to get in touch with that mag and inform them they reviewed an unfinished/unreleased game - however, to be totally fair they are reviewing a released game (its released in Germany) so their review should be considered fair and valid, you cant say "its unfair its not released!" when it is.
Any player who reads the game review and see's the score will avoid NC2, 50%ish = dont play this game, it should be seen as a kick in the arse for KK to actually start releasing patches, there should be 1 or 2 patches each month for the game fixing bugs, balancing issues, and every 3 months a huge content patch. You also have even more competition for your clients, today I recieved an email from Codemasters...
Asheron's Call now available from Codemasters' e-shop!
Hi everyone,
With this newsletter comes some information many of you have long been waiting for! We are pleased to announce that you can now order your copies of Asheron's Call: Throne of Destiny(tm) and Asheron's Call 2: Legions(tm) from our e-store!
For a limited time only or "while stocks last" as they like to say, each order will be eligible for one of the special bonus disks which will be sent at the same time as your full retail copy. Be sure to get your order in as soon as possible as once they're gone, they're gone!!
Which one will you get?
With Asheron's Call: Throne of Destiny: you'll get:
- Drop card with unique code to claim exclusive items for each character on the account:
- PAL DVD bonus disk with the cinematic game trailer playable in PCs and standalone Region 2 DVD players
-Two exclusive powerful gems with permanent enchantments; Asheron's Benediction and Blackmoor's Favor
With Asheron's Call 2: Legions you'll get:
- Drop card with unique code, which will give the player the right to an extra playable race! This allows players to experience the world of Dereth as a Drudge character for the first time ever.
- CD with a whole host of exclusive goodies:
- MP3 sound tracks
- Exclusive artwork & special screenshots
Finally, here's the all-important link: (no there isnt, I didnt add it :p)
For the past, almost three years people have said NC has had the potential to be the best MMORPG out there, it has possibly the best inventory system of any game (play any other game and you'll miss NC's inv system somewhat), it has the best gameplay style, its unique, its fast paced, stuff like that. And now you've totally dropped the ball, PC Mag's are reviewing the game now not when you want them to (which lets face it, the game will be exactly the same as it is now, unless you plan to rehaul the entire engine, update every zone and make NC2 an actual upgrade and not NC1 with a coat of paint covering the rust here and there).
A MMORPG is only as good as its development cycle, as in how often patches are released, content released etc.. How many patches has KK released this year in total? (not including hot fixes) 2? Not very many is it, how long did it take KK to fix the nodrop implants? The DOY Bots on the heads of people? What if a reviewer had reviewed the game then and had to walk around with a Grim on his head? You think they would have given you 58% then? Or 20% or even 10%?
Fix the game, dont blame the magazines for reviewing an unfinished product that has never, and unfortunalty will never, reach its potential.
Firstly, I'd like to say that I wasn't accusing you of lying earlier Nid, I was just wondering how it was possible you'd read it months ago (maybe it wasnt the May issue or something). If the review was out months ago then I agree with Nid. The game has not been released in the UK yet, and won't be until boxed release. Thus, this means that in essence PC Gamer has reviewed an unfinished game. Sadly, PC Gamer have a reputation for doing that.
PC Zone, as the UK's biggest and longest running PC Games magazine, does not follow this trend. They tend to wait as late as possible before reviewing a game. For example, the EQ2 review was only published in the issue almost half a month after its release. Personally, I'll wait for the Zone review and see what they have to say.
I had a chance to flick through PC Gamer while I was out shopping this morning, and it's interesting to see that it was old Rich that reviewed it. He was quite the advocate of Neocron when it was first released and I have a feeling that he's been checking in on us from time to time.. so harsh words there, Lexxy, but in many ways, quite true. Compare NC with any other MMORPG that's been going as long, and you'll see how much those other games have changed and improved. Yes, NC is running with a small team and lacks the budget of SoE et al.. but while the developer might see that as a reason for lagging behind, customers - especially the new customers we want to attract, are going to see that as an excuse, and I think the score might reflect that.
We'll see how the game looks a month after the international release (once all the features get patched in), but I suspect that NC will still not be able to compete on a shelf next to WoW, CoH etc, and instead will have to rely on the style of the game (real time FPS, post apoc genre) to sell copies. That might have worked back in the days of NC 1, but I think it's getting a little thin now..
Yes, that part of the world happens to be the part of the world where the review was printed. NC2 has not yet been released in the UK and when it is it will not be the same game that was reviewed in the UK's biggest PC games magazine. That concerns me greatly.
Quite frankly, the fact that Nc2 hasnt been released in the region PC Gamer originates from is in no way a viable argument, and i was greatly disappointed to read this portrayed as such.
You admit that Nc2 has been released, whether it be in Germany, or even on the net. Therefore, its not an 'unfinished' product in its beta form, so to speak. What remains unfinished are aspects of the game which should have been implemented during release itself, as promised. Leaving that aside, what PC Gamer reviewed is the game every German is playing where it has been released in a box, as stated by one of the posters above me.
Meaning they reviewed precisely what we are playing, so just because it hasnt been released there does not mean they are in any way 'jumping the gun'. I reside in the United Arab Emirates. If i download Nc2 and review it as a critic for a magazine in my region, does my opinion not count because Nc2 has not been released in a box in my locality? That's like saying that the U.S. cannot report on the Tsunami in Asia because the Tsunami hasnt struck the U.S. yet.
Finally, how much difference can one expect between what the game is now, and what it is going to be during the Intl release? In my opinion, quite a bit. WoC skills, accessories, improved HN, player shops, etc. Nothing to sneeze at. So the argument would be that they have reviewed a game which is 'unfinished' ANYWHERE, and not just in the UK. But if this is the case, Nc2 should still have been advertised as a beta, or not been released at all. I would much rather have waited those additional months than have been disappointed by the superficial changes in the game i witnessed upon logging in to Nc2 for the first time. So they have reviewed the game based on misinformation spawned by a lack of any real advertising. And the only reason i dont blame KK for this entirely is because they continue to impress me with what they have accomplished despite being a smaller company than Ubisoft or Sony.
What keeps me going is the hope that all the aspects which were supposed to be in-game months ago, will finally find their way in, and the player-base will pick up as a result. Because Pvp-wise, you just cant beat Nc2. Theres nothing comparable out there that i have played yet.
I have to hold my hand up and confess to being slightly confused. I've just been out shopping and saw the PC Gamer in question and it's definitely this month's issue. That means the timing of the review, though unfortunate from our perspective, is entirely understandable. I'm now trying to remember what magazine I saw the review I referred to earlier in this thread. :confused:
My comments on the recent review are that it pretty much spends its entire time informing us that it's virtually the same game as Neocron 1, mentioning new features such as DoY and HackNet only in passing. There is no mention of what HackNet actually is, the addition of flying vehicles or anything else. The reviewer also believes that Neocron 2 should have been an expansion, which is precisely what it is (though that's a confusion that many people share).
The reviewer does mention that there's still nothing out there like Neocron and there are a couple of pretty pictures so it's not all bad, but it's not exactly glowing.
N
There may be nothing out there like Neocron YET... but there's some possibly promising looking alternatives - Fallen Earth is apparently going into beta (last date I have is Spring 2005), and a bit further down the line is Twilight War: After the Fall. If these games aren't going to be Neocron killers, then KK have some hard work to do - FAST!
Athon Solo
Originally Posted by athon
There may be nothing out there like Neocron YET
The Originally Posted by Faverin
Theres nothing comparable out there that i have played yet.
So we concur.
"Yet". ;)
I have to hold my hand up and confess to being slightly confused. I've just been out shopping and saw the PC Gamer in question and it's definitely this month's issue. That means the timing of the review, though unfortunate from our perspective, is entirely understandable. I'm now trying to remember what magazine I saw the review I referred to earlier in this thread. :confused:
My comments on the recent review are that it pretty much spends its entire time informing us that it's virtually the same game as Neocron 1, mentioning new features such as DoY and HackNet only in passing. There is no mention of what HackNet actually is, the addition of flying vehicles or anything else. The reviewer also believes that Neocron 2 should have been an expansion, which is precisely what it is (though that's a confusion that many people share).
The reviewer does mention that there's still nothing out there like Neocron and there are a couple of pretty pictures so it's not all bad, but it's not exactly glowing.
N And yet, there is also fear of other magazines getting "dragged" from this person's perspective. It's also pretty cotradictory to give 58 and say that thereis nothing like it on the other hand. Is there any way of getting a photocopy of these articles? dunno what happens about copyrights tho...
It's also pretty cotradictory to give 58 and say that thereis nothing like it on the other hand.
Yeah, but that doesnt reflect on the quality of the game.. it simply means that for the style and genre, there are no alternatives. And Nid, you're probably right about the confusion surrounding the nature of the release. It's obvious that the intention was to release it as an expansion rather than a sequel, but it feels like something in between. Old ground, I know, but there are certain things you expect of an expansion (like being able to continue to play - even on the same server - without purchasing the expansion.. or having your character in exactly the same state it was prior to the expansion) that aren't so.. but neither is the release a true sequel. The other problem with a review of any MMORPG is that the games are always in a state of flux, so the review will also end up taking in to account the capability of the team behind it. At any given time in NC's history - even now - there have been serious bugs (FRE's), features not implemented fully, or features not implemented at all, and this reflect badly on KK when you analyse any single point in time.
I think it's fair to say that we, as the community, know that things have been fixed, and that things have been added.. and those things not present today (player shops, item tracking, yadda yadda) are going to make it in the game at some point, and will probably be great.. but for someone who has not invested any time or money in NC yet.. will they have the same patience that we* have displayed and buy the game? Probably not.
* and by we, I mean the community on average. There are plenty of individuals with, hmm, no patience what so ever.
Yeah, but that doesnt reflect on the quality of the game.. it simply means that for the style and genre, there are no alternatives. Of course it does Siygess. It follows his first review about the pure pvp feature that distinguishes neocron from all the others. If it was a negative feature then it wouldnt have been advertised like this. It's a strong selling point I think...
Yeah, but that doesnt reflect on the quality of the game.. it simply means that for the style and genre, there are no alternatives. And Nid, you're probably right about the confusion surrounding the nature of the release. It's obvious that the intention was to release it as an expansion rather than a sequel, but it feels like something in between. Old ground, I know, but there are certain things you expect of an expansion (like being able to continue to play - even on the same server - without purchasing the expansion.. or having your character in exactly the same state it was prior to the expansion) that aren't so.. but neither is the release a true sequel. The other problem with a review of any MMORPG is that the games are always in a state of flux, so the review will also end up taking in to account the capability of the team behind it. At any given time in NC's history - even now - there have been serious bugs (FRE's), features not implemented fully, or features not implemented at all, and this reflect badly on KK when you analyse any single point in time.
I think it's fair to say that we, as the community, know that things have been fixed, and that things have been added.. and those things not present today (player shops, item tracking, yadda yadda) are going to make it in the game at some point, and will probably be great.. but for someone who has not invested any time or money in NC yet.. will they have the same patience that we* have displayed and buy the game? Probably not.
* and by we, I mean the community on average. There are plenty of individuals with, hmm, no patience what so ever.
AFAIK This game is a stand alone project. It wasnt an expansion which is why we had to pay extra for doy and such. Its a completely new came. Hence NC 2 : Beyond dome of york. So as far as the review on game quality goes. It is valid.
AFAIK This game is a stand alone project. It wasnt an expansion which is why we had to pay extra for doy and such. Its a completely new came. Hence NC 2 : Beyond dome of york. So as far as the review on game quality goes. It is valid.
Neocron 2 is only called Neocron 2 because we didn't want people thinking they had to own Neocron 1 in order to play (as is usually the case with expansions). Neocron 2, however, is an expansion.
N
Neocron 2 is only called Neocron 2 because we didn't want people thinking they had to own Neocron 1 in order to play (as is usually the case with expansions). Neocron 2, however, is an expansion.
N
So you market it as a new game - then wonder why no one thinks of it as an expansion (albeit one that replaces the games graphics engine and doesn't require a copy of Neocron to run). :wtf:
Why bother confusing people with this stuff? Does it really matter. At the end of the day, the point remains that BDoY has been released online - which for an MMORPG is generally considered as released these days, whether KK like it or not.
Athon Solo
It's things like this that would contribute to a bad review.
Imagine a person reviewing the game when crap like this happens.
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=124425
Also, all the features advertized in the interview below basically don't work correctly, if at all.
http://www.ggmania.com/full.php3?show=5725
Now, if I read that AND then played the game, I would give it a low score too.
It's things like this that would contribute to a bad review.
Imagine a person reviewing the game when crap like this happens.
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=124425
Also, all the features advertized in the interview below basically don't work correctly, if at all.
http://www.ggmania.com/full.php3?show=5725
Now, if I read that AND then played the game, I would give it a low score too.
The Magazine is only telling the truth, least they are honest :)
Dr Strange
16-04-05, 23:47
Neocron 2 is only called Neocron 2 because we didn't want people thinking they had to own Neocron 1 in order to play (as is usually the case with expansions). Neocron 2, however, is an expansion.
N
(not trolling or flaming but)
Neocron 2 is not expansion, it is obvious it isn't.
An expansion adds onto an existing game, itself. Neocron 2 has it's own seperate engine from Neocron 1 and simply doesn't install itself ontop of NC1 (not all expansions do that but every expansion I've seen doesn't have a completely new engine)
An expansion doesn't have the #2 in the title. You say KK named it Neocron 2 to avoid people think they needed Neocron 1 to play NC2 right? Um are you purposely dodging what an expansion is? You say NC2 is an expansion, so to play NC2 you normally would need NC1, it's an expansion not an entirely new game (which ironically, it is). If it's not an expansion (as thus proved) then it is a sequel which the title already leads the buyer to believe.
An expansion adds onto an existing game, itself. Neocron 2 has it's own seperate engine from Neocron 1 and simply doesn't install itself ontop of NC1 (not all expansions do that but every expansion I've seen doesn't have a completely new engine)
Completely new engine? eh?
Neocron 2 is only called Neocron 2 because we didn't want people thinking they had to own Neocron 1 in order to play (as is usually the case with expansions). Neocron 2, however, is an expansion.
N
Stand alone project the term used to explain why we were paying money for a downgrade sad it wasnt just and expansion it was more. Using the title Neocron 2 confirms this. When westwood created red alert 2 it wasnt an expansion or half-life 2 this wasn't an expansions either it was a stand alone project a game in its own right. As i stated even for an expansion it isnt the best. An expansion enhances game play. It creates more enjoyment for a game you like. The fact server populations are so low proves that this "expansion" (game) did not improve the enjoyment but hindered it in many ways.
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=103848&highlight=martin
It says what you say in th link above but it also says :
releasing it as sequel eliminates this confusion.
The whole Sequel thing suggest it is a new game. 58% is a fair assesment if being kind at that because its the only game of its kind in its genre.
The Magazine is only telling the truth, least they are honest :)
You'll get no argument from me. :)
trigger hurt
17-04-05, 03:08
Completely new engine? eh?
If only he'd been around for the other "old" engine.
The only difference between NC1 and NC2 in terms of an engine is dx9, and what appears to be a bad implimentation of it at that. I'm no programmer, but I play other games that use dx9 and none of them have memory leaks or huge drops in fps to the extent that NC2 has. Blaming server load or population doesn't cut it simply because the population sucks so there's no huge load to balance.
When I played NC1. I had lag, sometimes it was bad, most times when there were a huge number of people in the zone. Also had drops in FPS for the same reason, but the game was playable.
Truth of the matter is, alot of people share the same view that I in that KK have released a product to gold while it should still be in beta and the people who have been loyal since day one get nothing buy item wipe, cash wipe (needed but didn't fix anything, economy is just as bad now as it ever wasy), rollbacks out of the ass and a company who is supposed to take our money, but sometimes doesn't want to.
Personally, I think the review, no matter when it was written is spot-on.
If only he'd been around for the other "old" engine.
The only difference between NC1 and NC2 in terms of an engine is dx9, and what appears to be a bad implimentation of it at that. I'm no programmer, but I play other games that use dx9 and none of them have memory leaks or huge drops in fps to the extent that NC2 has. Blaming server load or population doesn't cut it simply because the population sucks so there's no huge load to balance.
When I played NC1. I had lag, sometimes it was bad, most times when there were a huge number of people in the zone. Also had drops in FPS for the same reason, but the game was playable.
Truth of the matter is, alot of people share the same view that I in that KK have released a product to gold while it should still be in beta and the people who have been loyal since day one get nothing buy item wipe, cash wipe (needed but didn't fix anything, economy is just as bad now as it ever wasy), rollbacks out of the ass and a company who is supposed to take our money, but sometimes doesn't want to.
Personally, I think the review, no matter when it was written is spot-on.
Hahah yeah. Like one of the worst thing i experienced was losing a whole apartment to a fucking gogo bug just after the game upgraded. I asked could i be given back my stuff because i didnt do anything wrong but lost an apartment to dodgy coding. I got told seeing as the item tracker wasnt in game things would be as there are in NC. I wouldnt get sweet fuck all. Nothing they could do. If we told that to customers in the job i work well. They wouldnt stay customers for long . The low population in neocron seems to agree with this. If your customers arent happy you wont keep them. Guess i should have read the fine print that the other people who palyed didnt see. Upgrades may or may not be in this stand alone project ( new game) but will eventually be put in. The word "grifted" comes to mind.
Dr Strange
17-04-05, 04:11
Completely new engine? eh?
Well, correct me if I am wrong, but GM's have said NC2 is on a different engine than NC1 right? I realize both use the Tektonic engine or whatever it's called but it's like completely new in NC2, a huge updated version over what was used in NC1, right?
I agree with a lot of the sentiment in this thread I'm afraid. When was the last time we had a content/improvement patch by the way? Since the game's release date is getting murkier by the day, why don't they press on with making the game better? There is just no evidence of it other than Nidhogg's word.
Well, correct me if I am wrong, but GM's have said NC2 is on a different engine than NC1 right? I realize both use the Tektonic engine or whatever it's called but it's like completely new in NC2, a huge updated version over what was used in NC1, right?
Updated? A little. New? Nope.
Social-Zero
17-04-05, 14:13
Niddhog, are you actually reading what you're saying, cause sometimes I feel like you are brainwashed and playing a totally different game.
They reviewed this game and gave it a fair 58%
Don't go and tell that it's not released yet. You are acting like the International release would be a lot different from the piece of shit version that we have been playing.
It's gonna be the same bugged incomplete game.
Niddhog, are you actually reading what you're saying, cause sometimes I feel like you are brainwashed and playing a totally different game.
They reviewed this game and gave it a fair 58%
Don't go and tell that it's not released yet. You are acting like the International release would be a lot different from the piece of shit version that we have been playing.
It's gonna be the same bugged incomplete game.
If KK were on the verge of bankrupt he would still have to say its all good cause its his job.
I'm a newbie and this game seems good, but the bugs and all the crap is simply unacceptable. Anarchy online had seriously stablity at launch and within six months it was stable and lag free and Funcon could focus on content.
I just had problems with Click2pay, because they ignored something they were supposed to change with my account. I lag chrash every 30 min.-hour. I am waiting around for international release and if the game is not significantly better and stable when patch 131 roles around(doubtfull), I'm quitting(or click2pay fucks it up again and my account is suspended).
the 58% is spot on with the current situation. Were not talking about bugs that were introduced a month ago, were talking bugs thats been around since NC was release 3 years ago. Also these are not piddly little bugs, these are huge, obvious game chrashing bugs. Even Verent/soe fixed those bugs in three years. I don't the all my lag chrashing has to do with me being in the U.S. as I have connected to asian servers for other games with no problem.
Even with the missing content, there is still game here, a damn good one, but with all the bugs and stability problems its deters enjoyment. I'm giving it until next patch or may 6th(which ever comes first) for the next patch to come out, otherwise, I'm gone.
trigger hurt
17-04-05, 21:49
Niddhog, are you actually reading what you're saying, cause sometimes I feel like you are brainwashed and playing a totally different game.
Just to be straight, Nidd has stated that he hasn't actually played the game since gaining his status a couple years ago. He's logged in onto a char and moved around a bit, perhaps he's crashed, but I doubt he's seen it to the extent that people who play daily have. On the other hand, it is his job to do PR and damage control. On one side he might know the game is destined for the dumper, but he can't tell anyone unless he wants to sacrifice his position.
It's gonna be the same bugged incomplete game.
I can deal with crashing occasionally. I can deal with lag and low FPS when a huge number of people are in zone. By low fps though, I don't mean the slide show I get with system specs that are far above what is required for Neocron. To be honest, I think that, at some point, someone at KK should have looked at their situation and had a reality check. Someone should have asked the question "with this small of a team, can we pull this off?". When the answer came back as "no", they should have hired more people.
So you market it as a new game - then wonder why no one thinks of it as an expansion (albeit one that replaces the games graphics engine and doesn't require a copy of Neocron to run). :wtf:
Why bother confusing people with this stuff? Does it really matter. At the end of the day, the point remains that BDoY has been released online - which for an MMORPG is generally considered as released these days, whether KK like it or not.
Athon Solo
Replaces the games graphics engine which appear to make things look rougher and less textured. Don't mean to complain but mostly i still prefer the nc1 engine. It was also quite stable at the end.
While i was thinking about the graphics engine, maybe KK should move it to the Torque engine, you know the one that powered Tribes 2. Only update the engine to use hi-res textures. It could do the large zones and ground and flying vehicles, etc...
And as the engine is quite old they probably wouldn't have to spend much to liecense it.
That review surprised me. I have no idea why they chose to review the product months before it was released, especially when you consider that one of its biggest criticisms (the newbie experience) was already in the process of being re-developed for the UK (and international) market. Still, that's life.
N
so you're saying that there will be major changes like textures being re-done and new mobs?
IMO. will be same game for the next year...nothing majorly done like we were promised...and where is our new "state of the art engine?"
...and where is our new "state of the art engine?"
Now I know you are taking the piss.
Ok so I've finally got my copy, and here is the review text:
"More like 'Neocron, too' if you ask me"
Now, far be it for me to be lazy - but its been a busy month, and there are games on the shelves that I didn't play a couple of years ago. Would you mind if PC Gamer just completely reprinted my review of the first Neocron here? No? Well, never mind. The differences are so few as to be effectively irrelevant, save for one key point: while last time I praised it for being a great base for a genuinely stunning, sci-fi MMORPG, this time around it's clear that this isn't going to happen.
Even after two years, the future is still dark, dirty, deserted and unfinished. Hit either Pepper Park's notorious strip club or the shiny delights of the new Neocron Zoo and all you'll see is a locked door. Guards still stand around like lemons at the bottom of the lifts, while the NavRay navigation system leads you around the cities into tables and dead ends. The irritating tannoy system still drones the same handful of bland messages, while the most notable graphical update is that the telescreens around the city now try to flog you Alienware computers instead of plasma cannons. For all the flying cars and robot cops, it couldn't be much less inspiring if you suddenly found yourself in Swindon.
Back at launch, Beyond Dome of York was slated to be an expansion pack. It would have been welcome. One of the game's biggest problems was that while Neocron itself was an entertaining gameworld, packed to bursting points with futuristic districts, sewers and strip clubs, the world outside was largely empty wasteland punctuated only by towers for high level guilds to fight over. Dome of York is a brand new starting point on the opposite end of the map; a dingy, dark, and frankly not very interesting ruined city for Neocron's less salubrious factions. Hackers also get access to the HackNet, which roughly translates as 'glowy platforms like those ones in Tron'.
Both of these new features are all well and good - and had they turned up on time, I'd undoubtedly have been more positive about them. If nothing else, it makes a welcome change to actually have a fixed city where players are always meeting up, rather than constantly dashing around in search of bigger, badder monsters.
Unfortunately, since Neocron hit the shelves, we've had City of Heroes, we're about to get The Matrix Online, there's a possible challenge on its way from Face of Mankind, and computers are about at the point where a handful of us can actually play PlanetSide. Yes, Neocron was fun back in the day, with a brave attempt at faking first-person combat, but now it just feels tired and old. True, there's still nothing else like it on the shelves, but that's no longer enough to endure the many problems. Call it Neocron 2, Beyond Dome of York or just plain Jeremy - no name can hide the fact that this is just yesterday's game, and I'm really not sure why I'm being asked to play it again.
Score : 58% - A sequel in name only, nothing new - 'Deja-joue'
So there it is. A little harsh on the NavRay, and its clear he's logged back onto the german server and gone looking for new content as a newbie, not the op war end game that we love, but still, a fair review I think.
Here's a bit of info, fact fans, when this reviewer originally reviewed Neocron 1, he was in my old clan called Vexillum Nox on Saturn :)
@Mods, not sure if I'm allowed to quote the full review...but if I'm not I'm sure you can edit it down to be a partial quote.
Here's a bit of info, fact fans, when this reviewer originally reviewed Neocron 1, he was in my old clan called Vexillum Nox on Saturn :)
Sigh, I liked him back then too. ;)
N
No, he's not even vaguely wrong about NavRay. NavRay has gotten visibly, horribly worse in NC2. In the Dome of York, it only even turns on about half the time you need it, and a significant percentage of those times it leads you to the wrong place, or to nowhere at all. What's worse, they deleted about half the apartments from the list of searchable locations. NavRay is a tremendous pain the ass.
Obviously the reviewer was there before the reopening of Club Veronique and the Pussy Club. But at the time he reviewed that, we were complaining, too. It was an obvious sign that despite the fact that NC2 was almost a full year late at that point, important parts of it still weren't done. And if you look at today's update about the Zoo, you see that important parts of it still aren't done.
I also think the Copbots/guards in the gravlifts bug is both (a) as aggravating as he thinks it is, and (b) just as annoyingly old.
So yeah, while I still love Neocron, and think (unlike many of you) that while there are parts of NC2 I hate, on the whole NC2 was a huge improvement over NC1, the whole 58% review comes down to, "2 years later, and this is all you've changed?" And he's not wrong about that. The state of the art in gaming moved on. Neocron didn't keep up with it.
Shame the reviewer is right, not much has changed.
I hope for KK/NC it'll get better when the international release hits, don't know if i'll still be around to see it though.
Ah, I hadn't set foot in DoY yet, so didn't know how the navray was behaving there.
Here's a bit of info, fact fans, when this reviewer originally reviewed Neocron 1, he was in my old clan called Vexillum Nox on Saturn :)
Damn, now that's got me thinking. Althugh I was a member in the 'latter' days of V-Nox, the only other members I can remember are you, DaedalusSSJ, SENTiNEL (Before he went to CM), Stigmata (Before he went to NAT), Scikar and his mate (Before they went to MiG), R@zor and one other (before he left). I wonder who the reveiwer was...
Apologies for going off-topic.
I'll dig the name out later. Lore might have known him.
I think his character name - may - have been in the Neocron Beta Diary featured in PC Gamer a few years back. I always wondered what server Rich played on - should have figured it wasn't going to be Pluto ;)
Pluto was still a gleam in MJS's eye at the time. ;)
N
Pluto was still a gleam in MJS's eye at the time. ;)
N
During Beta? Dur.. stupid me, of course it was. My memory isn't what it..er...wha?
Pluto was still a gleam in MJS's eye at the time. ;)
N
MJS's eye eh... just the one eye?
i take it he had to visit mistress pamela and her 5 daughters for the idea to come out? :eek:
Just saw the review and all I can say is it's dead right and if anything avoids taking some pretty easy pot-shots at some of the game's biggest problems.
:(
well ive not trusted reviews on mmorpgs since i read one from i think it was gamespot (of nc1) that you couldnt pvp in neocron
Digital-Talios
21-04-05, 15:28
I subscribe to PC gamer and many times I use their reviews to purchase games I have been thinking about getting. I think their review % is probaly a fair one if you only played the game for a few days. When you consider all the bugs, sync errors, crashes, fatal run time errors you would not think of Neocron very highly. However it takes time for one to become "hooked" on Neocron. One day neocron is Neocrack and the following it can be Neobug. If all the bugs and crashes were fixed I can only dream about the populairty of the game. Of course this follows good advertisment, good community, nice events, etc.
As a side note PC Gamer gave Eve online over 80% review so what do they know :wtf:
PC Gamer gave Eve online over 80% review so what do they know :wtf:
Indeed.
Sadly with PCZ NC can't hide behind the "not played enough" line. More than one member of their staff played NC1 enough to know the game well. For a long time they were extremely positive about NC and it recieved far more good reviews, editorial mentions, etc. than a game it's size would normally expect.
Digital-Talios
21-04-05, 15:42
How long do they even try the games out for anyways? If you log into neocron and play for the day you could get 5 fatal errors but one the second day you can get a totaly different experience. I guess this applies to all of their reviews and this might be a reason for such a high review of Eve.
Eve Online was a great game... for the first week or so and after that it gets very boring when you get into the mine your life away rutt.
How long do they even try the games out for anyways? If you log into neocron and play for the day you could get 5 fatal errors but one the second day you can get a totaly different experience. I guess this applies to all of their reviews and this might be a reason for such a high review of Eve.
Eve Online was a great game... for the first week or so and after that it gets very boring when you get into the mine your life away rutt.Read my second paragraph above again ;).
It's true many magazines and sites have failed to adjust their reviewing methods to deal fairly with MMORPGs but in this case it doesn't apply.
Well somehow I doubt that Rich played NC2 for a couple of days.. we talk about how it takes time to get in to Neocron for you to enjoy it, blah blah blah, but I think it's fair to say that he played it enough during early retail to know the game well.. certainly well enough to give it a good score at the time (much as PCZ did). The basics of this game haven't changed much since then, so even in a week or two of BDoY, you are going to have "caught up" with the few new features. Alas, I doubt that the PCZ score will be much different.
Doh!!
Having just seen todays review thread I realised I misread this one. My previous posts were referring to PC Zone staff playing NC. I don't know about PC Gamer people but it seems one of them did as well. :o
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.