View Full Version : Addressing the PPU problem
Hey folks,
Thanatos, Carnage and I have been discussing the PPU problem for quite some time now. The problem we see to the simple approaches (like removing foreign-casts and stuff) is, that the PPU is a pure support class. Just limiting his support abilities might solve a few problems, but would drastically reduce the PPUs fun-factor on the other hand, maybe even to the point where only very very few people would still want to play PPU. The trick is to reduce the tremendous impact of a PPU, without either making their numbers go up or make the PPU un-fun to play.
Here is our idea:
Either Shelter, or Deflector. If you're sheltered, you can't be deflectored, and the other way round. Maybe even put Heal into this equation too. Either you're sheltered, OR you're deflectored, OR you get healed. Get healed, and your shelter and your deflector go down. Get your Shelter, and your Deflector and your Heal go down.
Additionally to this, we would have to adress possible exploit causes of course, like casting a lowlevel Deflector to make the Holy Shelter go down, and we would have to adjust some mobs, like Area MC5, so they could be solved again (which wouldn't be possible with no shelter and heal at the same time atm).
What would this do? The PPU would not do the full support routine anymore, but not only would his impact on fights be reduced (on a way which wouldn't be resolved by MORE PPUs), he would be a little more fun to play because instead of always doing the "heal/shelter/deflector please!!!!!!" routine, there would be a tactical element. Does this guy need a heal? It would leave him vulnerable, because his shelter would go down.
But we would like to know what you think about our idea. Discuss. :)
PS: Oh yeah, we are aware of other problems, like parashock and soulclusters. Please do not discuss those here, we would simply like to know your opinion about this shelter/deflector/heal exclusive thing.
Update: These changes are supposed to only affect foreign casts. Selfcasts should remain unchanged, with everything possible that is. Furthermore, we think that we will leave Heal out of this for now. Meaning: Either Shelter or Deflector. Heal is always possible. By the way, with "we would have to adress possible exploit causes", I meant exactly what some people noted: that it shouldn't be possible to steal your enemys shelter by noob-buffing. NOTE: This is not our final decision.
Update: Well, we thought the whole thing over, and talked to numerous people from the GM Team and the community about this. The result is: We will NOT implement this idea. It will not do what we intend it would do. Anyone can carry around a Piercing- and an Energy-Weapon due to the Tangent Epic Weapons which won't drop. That means we would basically remove Shelter and Deflector from the game, and that is not what we intend to do. We will post again when the next idea is thought through enough to be presented to you. I want to thank you all for your numerous replies :)
Heavyporker
22-02-05, 16:50
interesting idea, callash. I'll have to think on it before giving an answer.
Howeverr - what about the group modules - or rather, the sanctum modules - heal, deflector, and shelter sanctums - Many, many PPus have the heal sanctums permanently going - will that affect the single-target defense-exclusivity?
Or will these be permitted to overlap with the single-target defense type modules?
Are you talking about foreign cast exclusitivity or self cast as well?
If it's self cast as well, I can't see people playing it to be honest. Not worth the effort.
Bozz-Von Mel
22-02-05, 16:59
I like the idea of limiting buffs. Self-casts need to stay though. Was there never a way to work resist psi into this ? e.g. resist para, db.
DigestiveBiscui
22-02-05, 16:59
haven't played nc in a while - but that is the worst idea i have seen from you guys in 2 years O_o back to the drawing board i think
Pe's could down ppu's within seconds
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 17:01
The key problem with PPUs (aside from the class balance thing) is the heals.
Someone with a PPU and a holy heal is invulnrable to any one attacker bar possibly a rhino or a bomber.
In most cases the heal is enough to stop multiple attackers, especially those with low dmg outputs (Ie. PEs).
A ppu and apu/tank team should be as combat effective as any other two combat classes.
One fighter and a support char verses two fighters should be on level pegging, the support char in effect makes the fighter he is paired with twice as powerful.
But this doesn't happen, a PPUs effects are such that the other team has no chance. A ppu/apu team will decimate a two apu team, the high dmg output is not enough.
Regarding the idea forwarded:
Does this apply to self buffs as well?
Would casting a shelter on someone remove their heals and defs that they casted themselves?
If so this could be easily used as a weapon, casting a tl3 heal to remove a players shelter and def so that they go down faster?
I still believe that blessed and holy heals should be removed.
Shields are a different matter.
I'd have to agree with the above, if its all buffs remove other buffs, i.e. heal and you lose shelter, a PE would be screwed as they use shelter/deflector and stop to heal during the fight. Also low level buffs shouldnt drop, as a tank could just TL3 heal a PE and a PE then has no buffs at all.
You then also have the problem of AOE heal, a PPU could buff up a holy heal sanctum and run through a group of buffed people, who instantly lose their buffs, whilst the "enemy" can charge in buffed up with holy shelter, giving them a huge advantage.
Also what would happen when 3 AOE buffs colide, one PPU with HH, one with HS one with HD standing in a bar discussing sushi, would it think "OMFG WTF" and crash the server?
As for limiting the role of the PPU, it probably would end up with the PPU being a heal bitch, not worth putting any other buffs on as you invariably always need a heal, but probably just a shelter to start off with. Would, if self cast not droppable, PE's become over powered, they can runcast their own heal, with a HS still up?
Nice idea, but there are way too many computational variables to be taken into effect that it would just cause major headaches for the Dev's
[TgR]KILLER
22-02-05, 17:05
well I think i like my PPU the way it is.. but as asked above.. this for just buffing other people or self buffs to ?
still i don't like the idea not just for pvp but for hunting to.. i can name a dozen of mobs that do force / energy dmg so you need s/d.. one of them.. a warbot.
and yesterday i went hunting on my APU.. with a PE as a ppu.. buffing / healing me.. a PE wouldn't be good for that rule since a PE heal doesn't go up with 30 hlt a stack you need to be buffed and healed or else its no point..
and last but not least.. if this goes for self buffs to my PE is screwed to.. buffs are a PE's shield. and a PPU well getting noobbuffed would be a problem indeed.. a ppu shouldn't be able to get ANY buffs from others then.. nor anybody who can buff.. cause if i got a lets say shelter on and somebody wants to kill me he just trows a heal on me.. doesn't matter what kind of a heal.. maybe even a 0 slot uncapped holy heal to remove a holy s or d would kill a person.. so in the end nobody should be able to buff anybody or else anybody else can remove 1 of your buffs replacing it by another.. but i gues nobody thought of that..
Maester Seymour
22-02-05, 17:05
For foreign cast i think this is a pretty neat idea actually, its nice to see PPUs are being addressed anyway though.
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 17:20
the PPU is a pure support class. Just limiting his support abilities might solve a few problems, but would drastically reduce the PPUs fun-factor on the other hand, maybe even to the point where only very very few people would still want to play PPU.
Which is more important though, balance or fun factor?
Currently PvP is NOT fun when PPUs get involved.
When there are ppu backed pkers in MB, I don't bother leaving my apt, or I just go to TH and do some poking.
About a month ago MB got raided by some CS pkers, other than the annoyance that there really was no reason for it, it was great fun because though I was hideously outnumbered, there was no PPUs, on either side.
That's what it should be like when there ARE PPUs on either side, it should not matter than you have no PPUs.
The addition of a PPU should be of equal importance as say a hacker or a sniper.
As you said it's a tricky one.
Doing so, will give a tremendous advantage to classes like tanks, PEs and spies, while on the same time you will leave apus practically defenceless. If you leave the heal out of the equation, then you also create the super tank that still has amazing defence/offence the pe that can heal quickly(already can use its own s/d), the spy which can use stealth when in danger and apu which will really suffer. Putting the heal in the equation will make things even worse: the tank all that needs will be a good shelter, and some heal sanctum to heal, while the apu ---- (<--- flatline)
In the current state: VERY VERY BAD IDEA !
I would exclude the lower level buffs from this ... basically TL3 Heal, TL3 Def and TL25 shelt
They should be able to run together ... but only one blessed/holy buff
Also if you do this you have to implement that higher buffs override lower buffs ...
so you could Holy Heal a TL3-Healed player and the TL3-Heal gets removed automatically
I don`t know if integrating the Holy Heal in this is a good idea ... but maybe make the holy selfcast only ... :)
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 17:26
PEs would die fast too and be of little use.
They have the lowest damage output and the second lowest resists.
Without their shields they are useless.
Slinging a heal on an apu would not impact his own defences, putting one on a PE would halve them.
Interesting idea, but as you already realise, tough to implement without inviting griefplay through low level spells. I like the concept though, as it would also help the PE to be more viable in Op wars (presuming all buffs remain self-castable).
I think the result of this change would be that 95% of the time people would want a ppu glued to their ass with a Shelter running, and then as soon as they take 50% damage they would be asking for a heal override. After that, it would be heal heal heal, as its better than a shelter.
Still I'm sure this thread will rapidly grow to be at least 10 pages long, and I think some other people will be able to think this through well.
I applaud you for actually addressing something this big rather than opening clubs and fixing hacknet. This is the kind of thing that, handled well, would interest a lot of disinterested players.
[TgR]KILLER
22-02-05, 17:34
i'll just copy paste this from irc cause i cba to type it again.
[16:25:51] <[TgR]KIL|nc2> its not just self buffs.. say a apu ppu team.. go pking.. apu has energy armor so he got a deflector on him.
[16:26:22] <[TgR]KIL|nc2> somebody else just casts a shelter on the apu and whipes him with a exp termi.. boom gone.. cause def fell cause shelter nuked it.
[16:26:45] <[TgR]KIL|nc2> noob buffing would get worse as it is already.
[16:27:02] <[TgR]KIL|nc2> and even more ppu's gonna be around just for the noob buffing.
[16:28:28] <[TgR]KIL|nc2> but a APU without shelter is fucked vs a force / pierce weapon like my exp termi.. how many shots you think you can eat up before dieng on a apu ?
[16:33:20] <[TgR]KIL|nc2> in any fight i would be able to remove somebody else their buffs.. noob buffing is fucked up atm but with people being able to replace buffs.. lol damn right joke :)
thats all i have to say about this subject ;x
Don't put the heal into the equation. Just the shields:
holy shield = 3 points
blessed = 2 points
normal = 1 point
make it so, that you can use shields "worth" up to three points.
- higher shields override lower shields
- shield worth the same value do not remove the other type of shield
e.g.
* i got holy defl on me; some pe tries to shitbuff with tl3 defl or tl25 shelts --> not working
* i got blessed shelts on me; some pe tries to shitbuff with tl3 defl --> works ( i got more shields now )
* i got blessed defl and normal shelter -> some ppu's giving me blessed shelter -> not working, i still got my sd
* i got blessed shelter and normal defl -> some ppu's giving me holy shelter -> i only got holy shelter now
Could this work?
€2: obviously you could forcibly remove buffs:
* i got blessed shelter and normal defl -> enemy casts holy defl -> my shelter is removed, i got no chance to recast it other then getting antibuffed.
But maybe thats the price you have to pay for having 2 types of protection
€: some examples written, removed difference between self and forein cast
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 17:36
Grief play could be use with the holy spells too.
A holy heal is awesome, someone could cast a holy shelter and kick the poo out of you with a PoB or any other pierce weapon.
PPUs would still be a necessity too, they would still be able to provide god like healing and with more on one side than the other would be the defining factor in a fight.
Like DJ said, when a ppu enters the fighting arena, with all his inballancies that creates, he takes the fun with him.
Make some tests, Invite large scale fights, banning ppus make it like an invent which may have also a prize of some kind. Ban the ppus from the fight, but let everyone else join. Then you will all notice where the lost fun has gone, and what needs to get it back. PPUs should only stay in leveling places. Doing so, we have to give something for the weak apu and maybe the spy.
Logan_storm_03
22-02-05, 17:41
wow, some nice ideas, personly i prefere the whole
"What would this do? The PPU would not do the full support routine anymore, but not only would his impact on fights be reduced (on a way which wouldn't be resolved by MORE PPUs), he would be a little more fun to play because instead of always doing the "heal/shelter/deflector please!!!!!!" routine, there would be a tactical element. Does this guy need a heal? It would leave him vulnerable, because his shelter would go down."
seems to be my favirote, but then again personly i would not mind what happens aslong as it makes PPUs less so important and not a deciding factor in a fight. Meybe sorting PPUs will have a butterfly affect and could help to power balance on terra sever making it more fun to play and then reducing the crazy allie problem, then bringing in more people and improving the server pops then making it even more fun to play :P ^^.. ..pehaps..
Transformer
22-02-05, 17:45
if this were to be put in place i'd delete my ppu and make a spy. it'd be way to easily exploited. i made my ppu to pure support for OP wars. in fact thats about the only time i logged on him was when he was needed. No one is going to want to play a character thats supposed to be full support class and die in seconds because all you'd need to do is get 2 HC tanks with a CS and a Speed gat. BAM dead ppu.
Now that i got that outta the way here are the things i do think is along the right track. I think this system would work decently on foreign buffs since an APU running around with Full HS, HD, HH is just hell and thats coming from someone who almost always plays his apu like that^^. yeh ok so there wasnt' much that i agreed on but oh well.
I think that the anti ppu spells should be reworked. To take down the ppu faster.
Heavyporker
22-02-05, 17:45
I have to say, I like fafhrd's suggestion of giving point values to shields...
though I'd up the max to 4 points, so you can have some kind of heal going in conjunction with the shields.
And maybe give Psi Shield an cast-on-other option?
Or finally let APUs have Psi Shield as a self-cast option, as I suggested in the past?
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 17:47
This would work if it were restricted to those in your TEAM.
Not so good if you want to jump into a fight to help someone though.
Even so, I generally dislike the idea anyway.
Transformer
22-02-05, 17:47
I think that the anti ppu spells should be reworked. To take down the ppu faster.
Antibuffs are fine as they are. If you know what your doing you can easily take down PPU's with ONE apu. Now, if you running around in the open and there just so happens to be a ppu and he's aware...yeh its not gonna happen but if you keep him distracted with different things you can do it.
/edit take down one ppu lol. not multiple ppu's. this was also if there was just one ppu and not an attacker around.
Bananarama
22-02-05, 17:49
Personally I think that would kill PEs as they rely on their buffs to stay level with the other classes.
However, it would also raise the bar on the standards of good PPUing, but in turn it would encourage people to bring a PPU to each fighter so that their isn't too muc stress on a PPU supporting 2+ fighters.
€: woot thx for joining on that toppic
inst that much harder for PPU them removing forain cast and make group/sanktum spells a little better because of that ?
NO! NO! NO! just leave it the way it is.
Great to see this finally being addressed in public.
[Shelter] OR [Deflector] sounds interesting to me. Adding heal may be risky - how about still letting group heals operate?
If it auto-drops the previous one it will be exploited. You could make it so PPUs can only operate on their own team but that would be hard to work with and potentially still open to exploits. I think it will have to be as currently, ie wait it out. Maybe there could be a low-level self-anti-buff that anyone can cast to remove all three? Or a drug (though I prefer the spell approach).
**keeps thinking** - will post more later I expect.
I don't like this idea there are ways to do this better but if you do happen to do this plz for the love of god leave PE's buffs out of it kthx
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 18:02
NO! NO! NO! just leave it the way it is.
Hehehee.. knew someone would say this at somepoint.
Ch1n Th3 M4g
22-02-05, 18:03
PEs would die fast too and be of little use.
They have the lowest damage output and the second lowest resists.
Without their shields they are useless.
Slinging a heal on an apu would not impact his own defences, putting one on a PE would halve them.
dj
do u even know wot a pe is O_o
a pe can have 2nd or many be even the best resists in the game
and slasher/healing light/xbow/exe/ or any were near wepons on a pe
they can out dmg a tank
WTF are u talking about
i can see u not the best setup pe in the game huh
:lol:
dj
do u even know wot a pe is O_o
a pe can have 2nd or many be even the best resists in the game
and slasher/healing light/xbow/exe/ or any were near wepons on a pe
they can out dmg a tank
WTF are u talking about
i can see u not the best setup pe in the game huh
:lol: yeah but still a PE would simply die with out buffage its there self cast s/d that makes them strong. If they could only choice one type of shield they would get fuked over and if they heal they would lose there shields not good. It would make the PE a 5 second fighter because in 5 seconds I bet any PE with out buff would be on the floor
Really I wonder myself as well how a PE can die like DJ says. Anyway it's not a PE problem however...
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 18:14
RESISTS
Ie the armour and con point values (coupled with hp).
Without shields a PE has less than a tank, less than a PPU, same as a spy and more than an apu (much less energy of course).
Hence second least resists.
Unless of course you can get a PE to 180+ armours and 550+ hp without a ppu (or resist drugs).
PEs are totally dependant on their shields.
The combat classes are pretty much balanced.
Remove a PE's shields and he is the weakest class of them all.
With this idea:
If a tank gets a heal, his defence does not change.
If a tank gets a heal, his defence does not change.
If a PE gets a heal, his defences are shot to pieces.
Same can apply for spies too.
Anyway, I have made my opinions clear on all these matters, I'm gonna go make some tea and toast.
The option would make buffed chars drop to tanks easily as they would carry
1 Evnergy based
2 Speed gat
This leaves pthers open to this attack, but if you think about it, the man backed with a PPU or even the PPU himself will not be standing about waiting to be hit.
Some sort of balance is required, and I like the community thinking about it, trying to find a solution.
Changes would have to be reflected in certain mobs too like MC5, as those boys really pack a punch.....
with the current resists of a ppu without buffs and only a heal, u will find very few playing ppu, give them 120 con and uber armour, still make them hard to kill but not as effective to other people. meh...cba im off to quest. and as mentioned that is the worst idea u have come up with roffles
Really I wonder myself as well how a PE can die like DJ says. Anyway it's not a PE problem however...
Well if this idea included tl 3 heal,deflector and the tl 25 shelter then the PE really will have a problem staying alive ....
how come same as a spy???
the pe w/o shields, still has second best in game lol
oh yeh and if this thing does go ahead, being my main char is a ppu i think id have seriously reconsider ever coming back....
Hmmm, a tough one..
PPUs were never really a problem before the specialization patch that killed hybrids the first time around in NC1, because basically, there were almost no PPUs (I can only think of one on Saturn, DaFreak, and I'm not sure he was 100% pure anyway), we were all hybrids.
I think Fafhrd's idea is a good one.
Or maybe a PPU could only have enough concentration to focus on one other person, besides himself at a time? Though this would probably mean that people would travel with a PPU each, and op fights would last about 6 hours.. :rolleyes: So forget that one.
Or how about except for the heal spell, only sanctum spells work on other players, and only when they're within the range of the sanctum?
But again, maybe this would just mean that at an op fight every other person would be a PPU..
<shrugs>
Good luck on solving a tough problem..
Right ok ....
A lowtech PE is lucky to get 440 hp's right and 125 to 130 in con and armour combined is that better than a tanks resist ? No ! but it is when he has his S/D on a lowtech pe does shitty damage thats a fact. A hightech PE can do equal maybe more damage than a tank if he gimps him self which then lowers his defence even more.
If you don't play a PE then stfu
Oh goody another "my PE sucks"/"your PE sucks" debate. :rolleyes:
There was me thinking this was about PPUs and that this was something we ALL want KK to address....
Callash. I must say that Im really dissapointed. The community have suggested several suggestions that definately werent perfect. But this idea took the price for the most stupid suggestion Ive ever ever heard. Only one of deflector/shelter/heal running at one time?!? Who would ever wanna play a PPU if you change it like that? I didnt like Crest's about sanctums but that one is ages better than this.
Fafhrd's idea was actually not that bad but would be kinda hard to manage I think. Also "exploitable" with enemy PPUs casting holy defl on all enemies while his allies use energy based weapons.
For all that is holy. DONT TOUCH THE PPUS!! Until you have a decent suggestion. People complain so much about PPUs but its not nearly as bad as it the whiners say. Of coz should a buffer/healer make a team very powerful!! Thinking something else is stupid. Be aware about one thing, most of the people that complain are the solo PKers that get killed when a PPU show up (Doh!!). PPUs have never been as balanced as they are now. So dont come with some stupid change that will totally destroy PPUs and pvp overall.
Idea like this makes me happy Ive got a kickass hacknet hacker. A change like this and I'll stay jacked-in forever (or until subscription runs out).
Oh goody another "my PE sucks"/"your PE sucks" debate. :rolleyes:
There was me thinking this was about PPUs and that this was something we ALL want KK to address....
If it don't effect PE's shield then theres no problem however if it does I may aswell press delete button on my main char....
As it stands i don't like the idea.
For PPU's I think the main issue is the Holy Heal. Tone this down a bit and we're off to a start.
Maybe then consider allowing either a Shelter or Deflector but not both. But still allow Heals to be cast and not overite the S or D.
As it stands i think this idea will lead to a mass amount of 'noob' buffing which will be much worse. So if you are intending to mess around with this I'd also like to see it made so that Higher Level Buffs overwrite lower level buffs.
Now onto the self cast issue, if the plan goes ahead and this affects self cast too, then i'm in the aggreeance that PE's are fucked. My PE Would be nothing without being able to support myself. Thats the whole point of a PE, being able to support themselves.
Needs to be thought long and hard before any changes are made, either that or get a test server up and running to allow weekly adjustments until its sorted to a decent level.
i don't see the problem here with ppu's
a ppu/combo team might be hard to kill, but actually they aren't
i've seen more and more people ingame getting better at taking ppu/combo teams down, it isn't that hard. it only requires a bit of skill and attention, just arm yourself with a tl3 heal and a tl 25 shelter if ya can.
they just noobheal or noob buff the ppu and belive me that works
and on another note, the ppu is only as good as the player behind it.
keep ppu's as they are, and no i ain't got one strapped on my back.
if this solution happens, they might as well kill of the ppu in total .
Don't put the heal into the equation. Just the shields:
holy shield = 3 points
blessed = 2 points
normal = 1 point
make it so, that you can use shields "worth" up to three points.
- higher shields override lower shields
- shield worth the same value do not remove the other type of shield
e.g.
* i got holy defl on me; some pe tries to shitbuff with tl3 defl or tl25 shelts --> not working
* i got blessed shelts on me; some pe tries to shitbuff with tl3 defl --> works ( i got more shields now )
* i got blessed defl and normal shelter -> some ppu's giving me blessed shelter -> not working, i still got my sd
* i got blessed shelter and normal defl -> some ppu's giving me holy shelter -> i only got holy shelter now
Could this work?
€2: obviously you could forcibly remove buffs:
* i got blessed shelter and normal defl -> enemy casts holy defl -> my shelter is removed, i got no chance to recast it other then getting antibuffed.
But maybe thats the price you have to pay for having 2 types of protection
€: some examples written, removed difference between self and forein cast
The point system is a very good idea!
it isn't that hard. it only requires a bit of skill and attention, just arm yourself with a tl3 heal and a tl 25 shelter if ya can.
they just noobheal or noob buff the ppu and belive me that works
Skill and noobheal doesn't really go well. I most people would agree that doing that is not skill. Its just showing a lack of skill.
Why not just make it so you get one holy buff at a time? So if you buff your self your's are on untill the timer runs off but you can still have a heal casted on you by a ppu. That would be the best bet IMO becuase a Tank can cast a TL3 Def on him self and then get a heal/shelter from a ppu, and a PE can cast his S/D and get a holy heal from a ppu without affecting his S/D.
[TgR]KILLER
22-02-05, 18:52
I meant exactly what some people noted: that it shouldn't be possible to steal your enemys shelter by noob-buffing. NOTE: This is not our final decision.
yea but i wonder who in earth you gonna do that make it so you can only buff people in teams or what ? cause imho if ppu 1 gives apu a deflector and ppu2 ( enemy / neutral / allied doesn't matter cause not everybody plays their factions like they need to ) gives him a shelter the apu would be uber vunrable ( or how you write that :p ) to force / pierce dmg.. ofcourse ppu1 can give him a def again.. but you gonna keep playing buff games for ages then lol.
@ hellmag read what i just said.. not every player plays there role.. and BD and crahn are allies to FA but they are neutral.. and a few cm clans are enemy but also neutral.. can't make it depend on factions cause it doesn't go that way.
Bananarama
22-02-05, 18:52
They should bring the test server up and implement it, to see how it flows.
How about making the override depend on who casts it?
Like:
Self Buff > Team > Clan > Faction > Allied > Neutral > Enemy
That way you keep what you self has cast, and no enemy can noob-buff you (other then in a good way).
That combiened with the point system (but with 4 points so you can have both Blessed Deflector and Blessed Shelter running (or one Holy and one norm)) could make it work, right?
Skill and noobheal doesn't really go well. I most people would agree that doing that is not skill. Its just showing a lack of skill.
as i said "bit of skill and attention" and it's a good way to kill a ppu, cos it works.
Don't forget there's talks about nerfing a monk .. again, i'm just trying to prove a point that it's not nescessary.
First post updated.
still doesnt address aoe, now a PPU will be able to cast AOE HD/HS on self, wander off into a group of an enemy op and watch as all their buffs drop, or to me more accurate HD so the opposing team can rush in with NRG weaponry against unbuffed people. It leaves it way too open to exploiting grief play
Update: These changes are supposed to only affect foreign casts. Selfcasts should remain unchanged, with everything possible that is. Furthermore, we think that we will leave Heal out of this for now. Meaning: Either Shelter or Deflector. Heal is always possible. By the way, with "we would have to adress possible exploit causes", I meant exactly what some people noted: that it shouldn't be possible to steal your enemys shelter by noob-buffing. NOTE: This is not our final decision. I'm happy that it won't effect self buffs that means the PPU will still have uber defence and the PE/SPY will be left as they are. Now that I think of it, it might not be such a bad idea when in OP wars because a tank is going to have holy shelter on him. But he won't have any deflector so my earp or libby is going to actully hurt the mofo ^^ however his PPU can still heal him
KILLER']yea but i wonder who in earth you gonna do that make it so you can only buff people in teams or what ? If they are talking about being able to set it so that a certain buff can overide other buffs then shouldn't it also be possible to set it so that higher level buffs overide lower level buffs, therefore eliminating noob buffs.
i'm just trying to prove a point that it's not nescessary.You're right its not, thats why there is a Holy Anti Buff in game to de-buff PPU's. Works wonders.
You're right its not, thats why there is a Holy Anti Buff in game to de-buff PPU's. Works wonders.
exactly there's lot's of ways to kill a ppu, people just don't seem to want to take the time for it.. don't forget this isn't a normal pvp game, some things ya gotta work for.
and if you check other mmo games you'll find far bigger badder buffers than these monks in nc.
Chosing between foreign cast S/D could work, but leaving self cast buffs alone.
Tank gets HS and defs himself
Spy can s/d himself, or take the tank optiion
PE same as spies.
APU is the only tough one, with no def they will drop very quickly to force/piercing, not sure how well they fare by chosing HD over HS. It could make most apu's chose the hybrid route.
Heals could remain uneffected, ie, they don't remove buffs and can be used directly and as a sanctum. But they need toning down slightly with this.
Or (which I prefer)
You could make foreign cast heals only work as a sanctum and not tone them down. I like this because you would see tanks/PE/spies/hybs using their own heals much more, and it brings a tactical element of keeping your ppu sanctum away from enemies.
Of course with this you need overiding buffs, which get complicated and messy (wimps out). And make ALL para/freezing and damage boosting PvM
only :)
ppu with selfcastable s/d will be still immortal
any other class with foreign cast shelter and heal will be still immortal and undefeatable for anyone without ppu support
but these are only speculation. If u want any kind of serious discussion, please give some more specific info so people know what kind of system u do have in mind...
i.e. self cast vs foreign cast, low lvl vs high lvl spells, sanctum & group & normal spell differences, etc.
Great to see this finally being addressed in public.
[Shelter] OR [Deflector] sounds interesting to me. Adding heal may be risky - how about still letting group heals operate?....
hmm, shelter or deflector ONLY is only a small step. PvM is not affected at all.the idee of S or D or H and GH/HS is not bad.
Idea sux tbh, leave the classes alone fix the game first before even thinking about nurffin chars o_O
why not just add foreign heals?
heals don't heal as strong as they do on the caster, just like shelters are.
can't be that hard...
idea is kinda sucky.
someone with shelter.. use force.
then if u see hes getting deflector, use energy..
u'll see he'll get sheltered.. use force again.. etc etc
s or d disappears while healing?
a heal is supposed to heal u up.
with the situation you posted Callash, heal would be suicide.
PPUs cant outheal holy lightning without shelter. a heal would kill them.
a better solution would be just adding new ways to kill ppu's
give us back those spirit mods and spirit mods
and give us some new toys :angel:
edit/ dun wanna talk about hybrids..
a better solution would be just adding new ways to kill ppu's
give us back those spirit mods and spirit mods
and give us some new toys :angel:
edit/ dun wanna talk about hybrids..
Agreed.
Original monk
22-02-05, 19:25
ya must be kidding me ?
S or D ?
discussing it over skype first...
im gettin nervous...
why MONKS ?
ok nm, brb
(edit: i learned i gotta count to 10000 first till i give my opinion on monknerfs ..)
This is not about being able to kill ppus, it's about being able to kill the people they are supporting.
This is not about being able to kill ppus, it's about being able to kill the people they are supporting.
umm it's not hard to kill the people they are supporting, they always go down first.
but eventually you need to take the ppu down to get rid of them supporting them.
umm it's not hard to kill the people they are supporting, they always go down first.
but eventually you need to take the ppu down to get rid of them supporting them.
You try fughting a ppu/tank team with any other two fighters and you will lose no matter what, this would make it a bit more even.
I would like to see foreign cast nerfed significantly.
1) Make foreign holy s/d protection x% of what it is now.
2) Make foreign holy heal give x% less healing than what it is now.
3) Make self-cast override foreign cast
"x" to be decided through testing to be a good balance.
This will take away noob buffs, while giving some benfits to having a PPU still buffing you but without giving you the uber defense and healing ability you once had. PPU supported-players become easier to take down while leaving the PPU just as protected (important for levelling situations, but since he's not effective will also make it not so urgent that he must be taken down for one side to win a battle).
In my opinion, limiting access to shelter or deflector won't change the situation much. People could easily adapt their armor setup to lean towards force/pierce while getting a good shelter or vice-versa. The problem isn't having both shelter and deflector, but the protection they give when foreign cast (it's too much).
In fact, it will just make the PPUs job harder (hard enough as it is) to remember who wants shelter and who wants deflector for their setup. How many times have I heard angry shouts of vent when I gave someone the wrong buff for their setup?
I just cant calm down... This proposal is just so stupid. Even with the so called "update suggestion". IF you should change something then just tone the holy/blessed heals down a LITTLE bit. Dont touch the shelter/deflectors.
KK... Please.. You must be aware that history proves you are kinda crappy at balancing.. Stop this ludicricy from happening. And quit listening to the solo PKers whining coz they cant kill people with PPUs. PPUs are just slightly imbalanced when it comes to the main attraction of the game, OP wars. Toning down the holy/blessed heals just a little bit would make it perfect. (If you fix para and soulclusters I mean)
Being that one of my main characters is a PPU I have a lot of experience playing this class. I find playing this type of character I am the most needed, least respected and unfairly despised people in NC. I have heard more bad mouthing about PPUs then about the most annoying of pkers. Truth be told I tried of all the whiney bitchy little people who demand buffs, heals and rezzs while training in the caves, MC5, DoY tunnels and the like and then don't share with any of the loot. While the only recourse I have is to walk away while being laughed at for asking for my share. That being said I’ll move on to some more useful thoughts.
Part of the problem I think is the limited role a PPU plays. As a purely support character they are dependent upon one or more runners to level, gain money and to do anything except stand around. I think by reducing the abilities of a PPU on casting protection and heal spells other players will make a PPU as good as a poker when implants didn’t fall out.
If the support role of a PPU is to be reduced then it should be balanced by gains in other areas. Perhaps expand the abilities of a PPU to include more PvM spells that work. Add some sort of missions PPU could do without relying on others runners. Maybe PPUs should be able to hire a team of NPC players they could go hunting for mobs with.
I guess my biggest worry about any change that is made is that a PPU will be useless in PVP and turned in to a bigger hunting party healing bitch. If this is the way it is going to go I would prefer to see the class eliminated altogether have all the points freed up to make a APU and have all the mobs in the game rebalanced to reflex that there is no support class.
Ghanima :angel:
hmm, shelter or deflector ONLY is only a small step. PvM is not affected at all.the idee of S or D or H and GH/HS is not bad.
I definitely see this as only the first step in a (probably long) process. The game has spent a long time shaping itself around PPUs and it's daft to think any single change will undo all that.
IMO it would be best to start from a principle that PPUs will be nerfed to buggery and then slowly rebuilt into something new and better. Trying to slowly chip away at them won't work. On that basis I support this simply because it's a deep cut in terms of PvP.
Original monk
22-02-05, 20:21
ok 10k :mellow:
intresting reactions and an intresting fix or proposed fix to ppu's, i dont know what i gotta say lol, poor monks :)
it doesnt sound THAT bad but euh i like the way the current sd/heal/primes thingie is, dunno thats personal for everyone tough :) with only a heal or a shelter maybe even S or D +heal ppuing would get even easier :)
euh plus sumthing inchenzo was talking about .. it wouldnt be to great to have loads of apuhybrids running around :/ they can buff emself fully you see, ffcourse not everyone gonna switch but it sure promotes the class ... i know its not the same as holy stuff but still ..
so im afraid for the future of hybrids and monks in general yust now i think they fit in nicely :)
but ffcourse nothing happend yet, its an intresting discussion going on tough plus im glad KK discusses this with the whole community and dont yust listen to a phew people yelling hard at the classatm
enjoy
Btw KK. I hope you realize that this will only lead to two things.
- People stop playing PPUs coz they are bored of being so useless.
- Hybrids will be sooo much more powerful compared to all others...
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 20:26
IMO it would be best to start from a principle that PPUs will be nerfed to buggery and then slowly rebuilt into something new and better.
My general opinion too.
Hense my ideas on what to do to PPUs.
[ edited ]
no this change will only make hybrids back to overpowered class and then we have only hybrids on this server.
FFS
ps. ill be lomming the same second my apu ppu into hybrids.
wanna see a tank using 2 guns? gatling and cs? u see ppl fall down in seconds.
[ edited ]
Harsh words aside, Uho is right. KK, go and actually PLAY the game sometime before thinking something like this up.
Spys/PEs with Executioners will kick ASS. Everyone else that can do damage currently reduced by both deflector and shelter will do so too. (melee anyone?) APUs will die in 2 secs flat no matter what. The only ones that will like this are solo PKers coz they will feel so powerful again.
I bet Hinch would like to hear hybrids will truly come back soon again...
well as much as i appreciate the effort i think making it either S or d wont work
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 20:48
Orion']solo PKers
Orion']solo PKers
Orion']solo PKers
Orion']solo PKers
Someone's got a grudge... O_o.
PPUs need to be nerfed or have their entire role redefined (or both).
You cannot say that their effect on PvP is not unbalanced.
Something has to be done.
Something has to be done.
well before anythings done,.. (such as nerfing) they should fix the bugs/quests first
enigma_b17
22-02-05, 20:54
as far as i see it there is no problem with ppus, only these people who moaon when they get killed by some1 with a ppu around. If this happens and i can only cast one at a time, it will take all of 5 seconds to kill a ppu, and ill leave lol
Someone's got a grudge... O_o.
PPUs need to be nerfed or have their entire role redefined (or both).
You cannot say that their effect on PvP is not unbalanced.
Something has to be done.
untill you actually log into the game and attempt PVP you cant really say, im sorry but I cant remember the last time I ever saw you in-game!
[ edited ]
that made me laugh....
there a difference between having the skills to take down a PPU, and being fucking bothered when in 3 minutes time another one'll nbe right along...
and if youve never seen him online...how the fuck can you make any statments on his level of skill?
if its true that foreign buffs do a % of the effect on yourself, surely lowering that effect would keep the support role of ppu but make them a little less effective.
the spell cap is 546% - which would be the effect on you.
same spell cap = 400% would be the effect on another person.
this is obviously just an example.
and kiddies, stop the whinging (troll, flame or whatever they call it)
-get out of your pram and pick your dummy up, lazy gits.
and make higher level buffs override low level shite. noob buffing is gay.
Ok im only gonna say this cos it makes sense:
Allow casts of holy shelter and def on people. However should they cast heal, then you lose any shelter or defelector you have on. In other words you have a choice, low HP and more defence or restoring HP but less defence, also if you cast shelter or defelctor before the heal finishes it doesn't work or cancils the effect of the shelter.
REASON: It isn't the shelter and def that make a real problem, and nor is it heal, it's all three of them together, but shelter and def are shields. where as heal is restoration. so it would allow people to be either protected or restored but not both.
What do the rest of you think.
Zheo
virgil caine
22-02-05, 21:33
I play a PPU and I don't like it at all.
I play a PE, you take away my stealth, now you are talking about messing with my next choice of class.
Go fix something that needs fixing like the ganking that goes on in the pro city factions.
The problem is that you let a very vocal minority make the rules for us all. Aren't the rest of us entitled to have fun too?
JUST LEAVE IT ALONE.
[ edited ]
and yes i agree nib bufifng is ********, first get tihngs in order like overriding low
level buffs with higher level ones, fix all the bugs, and then fire the missiles....
as a fact u do anything like this we will see monkocron is back as all apus and ppus lom into hybrids... and then this nib shit wannabe pk'r wil whine even more... i think dribble bene too much on forums and got his brains soft...
[ edited ]
how can gimped pe called uho kill a ppu without nib buffs and nib heals??
tell me? coz ive done it more than once....
that made me laugh....
there a difference between having the skills to take down a PPU, and being fucking bothered when in 3 minutes time another one'll nbe right along...
and if youve never seen him online...how the fuck can you make any statments on his level of skill?
Since Uho is online 10 hours a day and still never see's him. Surely proves ALOT. Same here. Im online 12 hours a day and havnt seen Dribble either. If he ever bothered to come to any OP fights we would definately have seen him. (Trolling)
Isnt the point of balancing the PPU to get him balanced in OP wars and nothing else? I mean, why would it matter if a apu+ppu can kill 2 tanks? Its the larger scale that matters. And PPUs are actually not nearly as imbalanced in OP wars as people try to make it sound like. Those that actually DO op war would know that. Ive said it before and I'll say it again. Only like 5 PPUs are good enough to make the PPUs look really unbalanced. Are we really gonna nerf/nuke the PPUs based on 5 lousy people? There is simply no way to balance the game so the few really good ones doesnt excel so much. Well, actually there are. Make the game like WoW where skill doesnt really matter. :) And we dont want that. We want the game to stay as playerskill centered as it is now.
if its true that foreign buffs do a % of the effect on yourself, surely lowering that effect would keep the support role of ppu but make them a little less effective.
the spell cap is 546% - which would be the effect on you.
same spell cap = 400% would be the effect on another person.
this is obviously just an example.
and kiddies, stop the whinging (troll, flame or whatever they call it)
-get out of your pram and pick your dummy up, lazy gits.
and make higher level buffs override low level shite. noob buffing is gay.
Yes its true. Foreign buffs are only half as effective as selfcast. And yes, lowering that abit more is the RIGHT way to fix this "problem". Or a better one (dont know if its possible in the current codebase though) would be to lower the effectiveness only in pvp and not in pvm. If its not possible, then lesser the effectiveness in foreigncast abit more but then you also have to balance the really hard mobs abit.
Dont know if KK's method is a good idea. Needs testing and thought. Here are some suggestions:
-Make one self cast shield IN ADDITION to ONE AND ONLY ONE foreign cast shield possible on anyone. This allows most classes to have some sort of psi protection from all types of damage.
-Existing S/D should not be overwritten by D/S from different caster. Whichever PPU gets first holy shield in will have the choice of holy S'ing or D'ing the target.
-Higher TL should stack on lower TL, but lower TL should inactivate for the duration of the higher spell. This prevents shield stripping by casting S or D then D or S.
-Create fast-cast noob TL3 self-antibuff spell to remove shields and allow transfer of shield control to different ppu. Provides some protection from noob buffing/shield control stealing.
i play a ppu and i say: remove me from this game. I'm totally overpowered and i should be nerfed to hell and back...
nerf my heal to 50% of its power and do the same with S/D and boosters. Nerf my armor as well. Allowing S or D only is an awesome idea but ONLY if it applies to self casted buffs as well - without that ppus will be still overpowered beyond any imagination.
/edit/ almost forgot... remove para from the game !!! (or make it pvm only)
I play a PPU and I don't like it at all.
I play a PE, you take away my stealth, now you are talking about messing with my next choice of class.
Go fix something that needs fixing like the ganking that goes on in the pro city factions.
The problem is that you let a very vocal minority make the rules for us all. Aren't the rest of us entitled to have fun too?
JUST LEAVE IT ALONE. I agree with that statement 100%. For radical changes like these, everyone should be allowed to express his opinion in a somewhat big and open poll. the poll need to have a minimum of votes reached before those changes are in effect. But if most agree that there is a certain problem with ppu support in ops or freelance ganks in the city, then its best to have a brainstorm of ideas in an attempt to change things a bit
Could work, but then it would have to be highest counts.
Holy Heal >= Holy Shelter >= Holy Deflector > Blessed Heal >= Blessed Shelter >= Blessed Deflecter > Shelter > Deflector >= Heal
Whilst
Holy Heal = Holy Shelter = Holy Deflector
Blessed Heal = Blessed Shelter = Blessed Deflector
Shelter != Deflect = Heal
meaning that.
If you have holy heal running only holy shelter or holy deflector can take its place
same goes for holy shelter and holy deflector
if you have blessed heal running only blessed shelter or blessed deflector or holy heal or holy shelter or holy deflector can take its place
if you have shelter running only blessed heal, blessed shelter, blessed deflector, holy heal, holy deflector, holy shelter can take its place
if you have heal running then everything can take its place and same goes for deflector.
a selfcast > foreign cast
meaning that on same rules as before, then if the spell being self cast is equal level or higher than the one already cast it will take its place, else not.
so it would be something along the lines of
(([S] HH = [S] HS = [S] HD) > ([F] HH = [F] HS = [F] HD) > ([S] BH = [S] BS = [S] BD) > ([F] BH = [F] BS = [F] BD) > ([S] S = [F] S) > ([S] H = [S] D) > ([F] H = [F] D))
Dribble Joy
22-02-05, 22:14
Given the update in the inital post, how is this idea much different to what we have now?
Not affecting heals, but just s/d and foreign only....
OK, so people have a choice between shelter or deflector, not really going to change much.
Everyone uses their defs and the PPUs use their shelters on people, We still have class imbalance and heals are still as they were.
Something bigger and more basic has to happen.
Please leave things as they are.
.....
if you dont mean that in a sarcastic way i think i need to disagree. its not a problem that the PPU is hard to kill.
i think the biggest problem is the ability to support players on a direct way.
if its h/s/d or freez dosnt matter. they are ok if you use it like a barrel or like a sanktum or a group bubble.
I can't stress enough that this is a serious approach from our side to engange the "ppu" problem. However, in the past we did not have enough free resources to properly work on this subject. In a meeting with Thanatos, Callash, Carnage, and I we worked out a possible solution for the problem
I want to make clear to the ones now panicking that their character might become unplayable that this is purely a discussion, and in no way represents the content of a future patch.
This thread is meant to get your view on this solution so we can develop and further improve it. We are aware of the fact that this problem has been neglected in the past, but the "ppu" problem is a thorn in our sides, too. We hope we can find an acceptable solution with your help.
You are free to choose whether you want to actively take part in this process or not. Even though we are pleased that our non-productive commentators are a minority in this thread, I want to ask everyone to take part seriously in this discussion.
I applaud you for actually addressing something this big rather than opening clubs and fixing hacknet. This is the kind of thing that, handled well, would interest a lot of disinterested players.
Well said, well said!
[ edited ]
this is a wish of brainless pk'r that thinks he can be uber when theres not buttplug behind all ppl he sees those unsocial gimped retards.
no this change will only make hybrids back to overpowered class and then we have only hybrids on this server.
FFS
ps. ill be lomming the same second my apu ppu into hybrids.
wanna see a tank using 2 guns? gatling and cs? u see ppl fall down in seconds.
[ edited ]
You sir are a moron o_O
Let me guess your an APU or tank with a shit setup so your the first to cry for a PPU to come and help you kill ONE ! PE/SPY/TANK pker at MB. You're just worryed now that the said skilled pker could own you because you would no longer have godmode.
In DJ's case he is sick of trying to defend his home base MB from PPU/APU gank sqauds armed with glue and holylighting maybe thats why he don't play much :rolleyes: . So its not just the solo pkers there are group pkers with PPU's that can't be killed running around ganking everyone.
I think if people can't kill one solo pker they truely suck I laugh when people say they would have to lower the run speed cap if parra was removed. Those idoits should learn how to fukin aim tbh
enigma_b17
22-02-05, 23:46
implementing this idea would b totally unfair and unjustified.
PPUs have NO offence, giving them the ability to cast 1 shield will drop them in 5 seconds. If this is done then all antibuff should be removed from the game :P
Ozambabbaz
22-02-05, 23:47
implementing this idea would b totally unfair and unjustified.
PPUs have NO offence, giving them the ability to cast 1 shield will drop them in 5 seconds. If this is done then all antibuff should be removed from the game :P
Haha! :p
enigma_b17
22-02-05, 23:56
despite the :P, i was serious
implementing this idea would b totally unfair and unjustified.
PPUs have NO offence, giving them the ability to cast 1 shield will drop them in 5 seconds. If this is done then all antibuff should be removed from the game :P
People are not reading this post right it would not effect self cast
People are not reading this post right it would not effect self cast
Nope, your right it wouldnt, lets just delete the APU class and be away with it.. im not on about 'random pking' imagine an APU in an Op war if this was to fall into place :rolleyes:
The ideas (no offence) a load of bullshit :o
enigma_b17
23-02-05, 00:00
Nope, your right it wouldnt, lets just delete the APU class and be away with it.. im not on about 'random pking' imagine an APU in an Op war if this was to fall into place :rolleyes:
at least apus can defend themselves when attacked, all a ppu can do is run around healing itself, if this comes to pass, god forbid, ppus will be easier to kill then spies
just a couple of problems with this equation although in theory it looks nice but....
imagine a situation ok your in a small group say 5 people and your heading either on a killing session in one of the cities OR your perhaps holding an op.
now remember this is an FPS game so its fast paced and sometimes frantic. a ppu doesnt have time to see this person needs a heal when he has 4 other people behind him or around him somewhere randomly screaming at them "i need heal" etc etc
then when you factor in things like anti por db etc your basically got an unplayable situation and the ppu may as well not be there.
ppu's are already VERY hard to play properly (yes im gonna ignore you new guys screaming at me for that comment) due to the limitations of the only 10 slot cast bar and in ability to "macro" like in other games multiple actions so as to take up only 1 quickbar slot.
i'd really love to go into details why the suggested solution wouldnt work but you'd basically find a situation where your ppu's would shelter everyone before going into battle and then thats it they would retreat until the battle is over to come in and ressurect an hour later or something.
other issues is holy heal is currently too powerfull that alone can out heal most pvp damage types (pvm is a different story)
several suggestions
1) apu anti shelter casts 50% quicker at a SLIGHTLY higher mana cost (anti shelt only NOT HAB) BUT it has a 30% chance to knock off any heals/deflectors already in place.
2) ALL rare weapons have a 3% chance to cancel a running shelter or heal or deflector and hense score a "critical" hit.
3) reduce effectiveness of ALL ppu spells by 12.76% (this number comes from a while ago when a few of us worked out the correct balance of the class:) )
4) lower the buff amount given to resists and hp from the booster spells. (only slightly)
5) The hybrid solution. Make ALL monks hybrid and make the 115/115 hybrid possiable again. With a couple of changes. First up lower the cap of all monk resists down a shit load to bring them inline with the NC canon which states they are frail and hardly look capable of standing up. A monks defences are ALL supposed to be psi based. Combine this with an overall effectiveness reduction of ALL spells by approx 15% remove the following spells. Psi shield, soul clusters, parashocks, psi combat boosts, anti poisions, anti db's, anti para's and all high lvl rares for monks leaving FA and HL as the only rares usable on the apu side and then true sight as the only ppu rare. Remove the ability for other classes to cast ANY spells on a monk and set limits on the monks so that after a certain lvl of points are spent in apu and ppu that they can no longer use "lower" spells ie: when at 115 ppu you cant use a tl3 heal anymore. Remove the ability for monks to cast any kind of weapon usage buff on themselfs (thinking mainly melee combat here)
all of the above are possiable solutions and a few worked together correctly would pretty much solve the monk class. However with such drastic changes at the same time you'd have todo a full damage output pass of all weapons both pvp and pvm and then do a full balance pass over all mobs. Its by no means an easy way to fix monks but then the cause of the problem was the monks were badly planned in the first place effectivly combining 2 different dnd style classes and so creating the overpowered monks of now. (you new guys just be thankfull you didnt see the old hybrids :) )
ok theres like 90 more pages on this i havent wrote cos i dont have time but i'd love the chance to actually sit down directly with the devs or someone and discuss this properly as the monk class as a whole needs a rework not just the ppu. and you cant touch the ppu without touching every other class anyway due to the way they work.
Anyway i dont hold any hopes for anyone giving a shit about this reply or listening to a word i've said :) if you do want to listen though you know where to find me hell if you do it right you may even get 90% of your player base back that left due to your screwups with the monks in the first place
hey, i have an idea!
why not teach people how to use antibuff properly and creat effective team work to kill the PPU's, then PPU's will no longer be overpowered!
I have a better idea.
How about you shutup!
cos not everyone is an APU who can cast antibuffs?
Interesting ideas...
AS people have said, Holy Healis the big deal. I was able to take a Tank in a Tank/PPU team I was fighting down to 1/4 health time after time. But then a quick holy heal and in roughly a second back to full...
hey, i have an idea!
why not teach people how to use antibuff properly and creat effective team work to kill the PPU's, then PPU's will no longer be overpowered!
sexy ppu's arent overpowered atm just theres too many incapable people around :) since all us vets left however what makes the ppu over powered is when its in the hands of someone with a clue :) thats when people scream nerf same with the initial hybrids there was perhaps 20 good hybrids in total across all servers and it was our blatant ability to play that got the entire class wiped out
but there is deffo some more serious problems with the ppu regardless of who plays it it should be possiable for both a good ppu and a bad ppu to be equally as usefull and neither should have default god mode
Another approach - stop making self-cast stronger than foregin. That way the PPU can still support others fully - but is no longer invincible themselves. Becuase at the moment its daft that PPUs can stand in themiddle of 4 players soaking up their damage, or go stand in the middleof the X-tyoe juggernaut room and survive quite easily...
actually if you follow the neocron history :) thats exactly what theyre capable of
But there is deffo some more serious problems with the ppu regardless of who plays it it should be possiable for both a good ppu and a bad ppu to be equally as usefull and neither should have default god mode
The whole, People are better than others scenario enables people to try and be better and also brings in competition... Yes even including the PPU class
K when people antibuffed me i just laughed. Holy heal, shelter, deflector and im back again after 3 seconds. How much damage do you realy think you can put on me when my cast times are practicly instant and i can switch spells even faster becouse you dont have to wait for a spell to completely finish? A good ppu can outlast any antibuff unless you have 6 people with good aim and no obsticles taking him down.
enigma_b17
23-02-05, 00:24
its not that hard to kill a ppu, theyr not that overpowered. The point that it takes "so many" people to kill a ppu is so because of the simple fact that they have, as ive said about 3 times so far lol
PPUS != offencive
its not that hard to kill a ppu, theyr not that overpowered. The point that it takes "so many" people to kill a ppu is so because of the simple fact that they have, as ive said about 3 times so far lol
PPUS != offencive
It doesnt take 'that many' to kill a PPU, it takes 'that many' to kill a Good PPU.. Ive killed lots of PPU's on my apu 'solo' its just a case of certain people within the class make it look like they are impossible to kill, and I think Hinch will agree with me when I say it was the same with the Old skool Hybrids!
implementing this idea would b totally unfair and unjustified.
PPUs have NO offence, giving them the ability to cast 1 shield will drop them in 5 seconds. If this is done then all antibuff should be removed from the game :P
I think you misunderstod. As far as i read it, the selfcast abilities will not be changed. So still shelter and deflector and heal for the PPU or anyone who casts themselves.
Regards Xaru
The most funny thing with the "proposal" is that they havnt really thought about what would happen. Almost everyone would have holy shelter since energy are the most common damage. Can you imagine a raptor attacking then? hahaha..
KK. Do yourself a favour and read through Hinch's suggestions. When you think about them they are all better than your own. The hybrid suggestion is prolly the hardest idea to implement due to that it would be extremely hard to balance it. Funny one though. The most realistic way to go is to just lower the effectiveness as Ive said before. Perhaps even that 12.6% as Hinch mentioned is about perfect.
The major problem with your own suggestion is that even if small ganking sessions might be easier for people, the OP war part will be extremely boring. Why you might ask? Well, if everyone has such a huge flaw it only takes 1 second to find out what buff a person has and then you can kill him in 2 secs even with a holy heal running. Fights will be over in no-time and I doubt anyone will want that. The fights should be inspiring and fun and if you keep getting killed in 3 secs over and over again you will get bored and dont wanna OP war again.
Its just an idea and they posted it here to be discused. The point is they want to do somthing about it and they are wondering what we think.
despite the :P, i was serious
not like anyone is using the antibuffs for anything but looking cool with all the rays going to all different ways.
K when people antibuffed me i just laughed. Holy heal, shelter, deflector and im back again after 3 seconds. How much damage do you realy think you can put on me when my cast times are practicly instant and i can switch spells even faster becouse you dont have to wait for a spell to completely finish? A good ppu can outlast any antibuff unless you have 6 people with good aim and no obsticles taking him down.
ok, whats your name, iam 95% sure, one ppu and one apu will kick your ass.
hey, i have an idea!
why not teach people how to use antibuff properly and creat effective team work to kill the PPU's, then PPU's will no longer be overpowered!
UGH ....
Not everyone has antibuff, anyway its not about be able to kill the PPU its the players they cast there semi godmode over
I've seen a lot of stuff of the forum, and I've refrained from commenting on how outrageous it was, but I think this is just a really bad idea.
This plan would make the PPU a very unfun character to play, plus it would destroy PE resists.
Dont do it.
UGH ....
Not everyone has antibuff, anyway its not about be able to kill the PPU its the players they cast there semi godmode over
only a good PPU can cast the 'almighty' god-mode and keep the person alive, and its the people that 'CAN' do this that are making everyone scream abuse at the whole issue..
Dr Strange
23-02-05, 01:49
No, no, and no.
If you ask me PPU's are fine as it is. Sure a little tweaking on some spells. Maybe take A LITTLE off Shelter Deflector (and para), but increase the heal rate a tad to compensate.
I play the ppu, even though I really suck at it, cause its the one class just about any player welcomes at almost any given time. Is it absolutely needed? No, but its damn handy.
It would also cripple hunting imo. Look at CRP. You're gonna need I'd assume (afaik) deflector for most of the piercing/force shots of the chaos minions, and shelter for the insane fire the queen pumps out. kinda hard to just use shelter for the queen when she has 20 little minions firing as well.
Or other hunting areas where theres mid-to-high level mobs whom vary in damage types. Do you think we'll really keep constantly switching between shelter or deflector? People will get fed up with that in NO time flat.
Please leave ppu's as they are now, thank you.
only a good PPU can cast the 'almighty' god-mode and keep the person alive, and its the people that 'CAN' do this that are making everyone scream abuse at the whole issue.. LOL
Any stupid noob can make a PPU I can be fighting a tank then some dickhead ppu arives and parra shocks me holy heals the tank. That tank then fully heals back to full health I can't fukin move cause i'm glued then I'm DBed THE TANK is going to win and theres fuck all I can do about it. I takes no skill whats so ever its bullshit and any noob can do it
/edit PPU's make my blood boil =/
ok tell me how the hell I would win in such a fight if I'm parra shocked and this tank is getting holy heals I can't win. All the fun is taken away I log off in disgust
enigma_b17
23-02-05, 01:57
LOL
Any stupid noob can make a PPU I can be fighting a tank then some dickhead ppu arives and parra shocks me holy heals the tank. That tank then fully heals back to full health I can't fukin move cause i'm glued then I'm DBed THE TANK is going to win and theres fuck all I can do about it. I takes no skill whats so ever its bullshit and any noob can do it
/edit PPU's make my blood boil =/
1. it does require skill
2. if it was an apu or another tank or a pe chances are u would ave died anyway, the fact of the matter is it was 2v1 affair.
LOL
Any stupid noob can make a PPU I can be fighting a tank then some dickhead ppu arives and parra shocks me holy heals the tank. That tank then fully heals back to full health I can't fukin move cause i'm glued then I'm DBed THE TANK is going to win and theres fuck all I can do about it. I takes no skill whats so ever its bullshit and any noob can do it
/edit PPU's make my blood boil =/
Sorry, I was looking at a totally different scenario there.. for example Op wars, where an apu/ppu team can obliterate numbers.. But I do see where your coming from about the whole 'ppu on the scene' Its more so since the older people left, so now we are faced with ppu / LE people.. *yawn* gets kinda tiresome..
ok, whats your name, iam 95% sure, one ppu and one apu will kick your ass.
Read the sig. Im 100% sure they couldent becouse ive come vs many apu's and ppu's.
Read the sig. Im 100% sure they couldent becouse ive come vs many apu's and ppu's.
my apu antibuffs you, i nib shelter, para and db you, you die. need a diagram?
/edit: i do realise this thread is all for deleting Nib buffs, but PPU's are more vulnerable than people think.
LOL
Any stupid noob can make a PPU I can be fighting a tank then some dickhead ppu arives and parra shocks me holy heals the tank. That tank then fully heals back to full health I can't fukin move cause i'm glued then I'm DBed THE TANK is going to win and theres fuck all I can do about it. I takes no skill whats so ever its bullshit and any noob can do it
/edit PPU's make my blood boil =/
ok tell me how the hell I would win in such a fight if I'm parra shocked and this tank is getting holy heals I can't win. All the fun is taken away I log off in disgust
If you suddenly face increased odds then of course you aren't going to win thats just life I'm afriad, and if you turned up and a mate was fighting would you just leave it? I doubt it very much, also why does it need to be a ppu? If it was any other class you probably wouldn't survive anyways.
Yes any stupid noob can make a PPU and yes they can use HH and Para...but put that stupid noob into an op war and he will drop to a good team easy...unless he is a skilled player.
Really I find the main issue with PPUs is Para...get rid of that and ppl will be happy.
my apu antibuffs you, i nib shelter para and db you, you die. need a diagram?
So your one of the guys who like to resort to near exploiting tactics to take out a ppu, and thats why you think their fine? Get some skills before you talk to me.
1. it does require skill
2. if it was an apu or another tank or a pe chances are u would ave died anyway, the fact of the matter is it was 2v1 affair.
Yeah yeah
I'm aware of PPU taking skill to play so much to think about etc etc
But really it pisses people off I goto pepper park 3 for some pvp most of the time I'm not intrested in killing total noobs. I'm just there for some pvp with people that want to fight, but every god damn time some shithead turns up with a PPU cos they can't kill one PE. Then they have the cheek to say I'm a zone whore, yet 75% if not more of the fights I start I end up wining 1 vs 1. Basicly now you can't go anywhere for a good fight with out people bringing there PPU's other than neofrag its like go in pepper park see a PPU comming "yawn" GR out :rolleyes:
Bananarama
23-02-05, 02:10
So your one of the guys who like to resort to near exploiting tactics to take out a ppu, and thats why you think their fine? Get some skills before you talk to me.
And without the ability to nib buff, the chances of this retarded idea being implemented increases.
Remove Para, and possibly make DB PvM only. Should balance it out a little more. Or bring back Spirit Mods.
So your one of the guys who like to resort to near exploiting tactics to take out a ppu, and thats why you think their fine? Get some skills before you talk to me.
ok, you want an non "exploiting" tactic to kill 1 PPU.
right, you don't even need a PPU to do this, 2 properly setup APU's with decent aim and anti para drugs; first off you have one APU debuffing, correctly done you can cast 2 antibuffs straight after each other, with over 4/5 hl's to spare at the end of the two casts. Meanwhile you have the other APU constantly spamming the PPU with holy lightning, PPU dies.
This post was about PPU support on others, but in a scenario of a one tank and his PPU vs 2 APU's and their PPU, both PPU's are of a similar skill level, The 2 APU's and PPU should nail the Tank and his PPU, but shouldn't they anyway? I mean it is 3 vs 2.
enigma_b17
23-02-05, 02:12
Yeah yeah
I'm aware of PPU taking skill to play so much to think about etc etc
But really it pisses people off I goto pepper park 3 for some pvp most of the time I'm not intrested in killing total noobs. I'm just there for some pvp with people that want to fight, but every god damn time some shithead turns up with a PPU cos they can't kill one PE. Then they have the cheek to say I'm a zone whore, yet 75% if not more of the fights I start I end up wining 1 vs 1. Basicly now you can't go anywhere for a good fight with out people bringing there PPU's other than neofrag its like go in pepper park see a PPU comming "yawn" GR out :rolleyes:
thats fair enough, i know what u mean ive come down and fought u before on my apu (and lost i might add :P), but because some people bring a ppu along is no reason to nerf it even more. I love playing my ppu, and any more nerfs would render it no fun, simply put.
this game is not supposed to be played solo, this is a team based game, if you try to solo one person and he has a PPU you are gonna die, so what, get your own PPU/whatever to go kill them...
Asurmen Spec Op
23-02-05, 02:21
this game is not supposed to be played solo, this is a team based game, if you try to solo one person and he has a PPU you are gonna die, so what, get your own PPU/whatever to go kill them... thats odd I thought I could cap and participate in high lvl content
solo
thats why I dont play wow
thats odd I thought I could cap and participate in high lvl content
solo
thats why I dont play wow
yes, because you really should be able to take out (inserthugenumberhere) and be thinking you shouldn't be killed. Thats why the 50/50 hybrids were obliterated.
this game is not supposed to be played solo, this is a team based game, if you try to solo one person and he has a PPU you are gonna die, so what, get your own PPU/whatever to go kill them...
Well I don't want to team play all the time I like doing stuff by my self, after being in large clans on saturn and puting up with the shit that came with it. I tend to do stuff alone as its more fun I can kill who ever I want as theres no silly secret NAP to stop me :)
right, you don't even need a PPU to do this, 2 properly setup APU's with decent aim and anti para drugs; first off you have one APU debuffing, correctly done you can cast 2 antibuffs straight after each other, with over 4/5 hl's to spare at the end of the two casts. Meanwhile you have the other APU constantly spamming the PPU with holy lightning, PPU dies.
Ya only if the ppu goes afk. The ppu if he is good, will sill survive this. If he/she isent a good ppu and do die he tactic sill needs 2 apus with antibuff to equal ONE ppu. Thats not balance.
Well I don't want to team play all the time I like doing stuff by my self, after being in large clans on saturn and puting up with the shit that came with it. I tend to do stuff alone as its more fun I can kill who ever I want as theres no silly secret NAP to stop me :)
Politics will be apart of every MMO you ever play if you want to be in a pvp enviroment and be successful, its not my fault you don't want to make and play with friends.
Ya only if the ppu goes afk. The ppu if he is good, will sill survive this. If he/she isent a good ppu and do die he tactic sill needs 2 apus with antibuff to equal ONE ppu. Thats not balance.
2 People to kill 1 person that has sacrifices near enough all offensive capabilities? (am gonna ignore the tl 14 sword wielding PPU's, no serious PPU would do that) yes, very unbalanced.
Name One PPU that can withstand that tactic I've just suggested and we'll put it to the test.
I wont read all the posts I cant be arsed one more time of boho sniff sniff threads.
Im all for trying out ways of trying to make even the lazy asses whiners and what not of this game happy so, all Im saying bring the fucking test server up. And KK you better not fuck us over with this, all this needs TESTING before putting live. You can break a shitload of things you do not want to break.
2 People to kill 1 person that has sacrifices near enough all offensive capabilities? (am gonna ignore the tl 14 sword wielding PPU's, no serious PPU would do that) yes, very unbalanced.
The ppu practically does have offensive capabilities from the people he is keeping alive. Your comparing 2 apus vs one ppu which is compleely wrong becouse that situation never comes up. Try the same for a ppu with a tank and apu vs 6 apu's.
thats odd I thought I could cap and participate in high lvl content
solo
thats why I dont play wow
participation is a term used to describe more of a group activity. And in wow you can cap solo and get high lvl content, that's why you probably shouldn't play wow...
Obsidian X
23-02-05, 05:03
Is it any wonder KK rarely puts issues like this to community referendum? The whole discussion is flawed.
PE fanbois want PPUs out of the game full stop, because they don't help PEs in any way.
PPUs want their class to be worth playing.
Most others are polarised or not arsed.
The only people that are strongly in favour of implementing this idea/sledge-hammer-nerfing the PPUs are PE players. And seriously, if you nerf the PPU, whats the alternative? Lets revert back to Godlike Hybrids, they were so much more balanced then PPUs are now :wtf:
I vote no, I hope this idea doesn't go ahead, as much as the poor selfish little PEs want it, just becuase they don't use PPUs. Making S/D mutually exclusive will, as has been pointed out several times already, mean all runners will become vulnerable to a combo force/prc and energy attack.
2 People to kill 1 person that has sacrifices near enough all offensive capabilities? (am gonna ignore the tl 14 sword wielding PPU's, no serious PPU would do that) yes, very unbalanced.
Name One PPU that can withstand that tactic I've just suggested and we'll put it to the test.
When your not paraed you always have a chance :p
PPU's are somewhat imbalanced atm, though this won't solve it, I can see it now, me with my friend apu running in, I'll cast a Holy Def on whoever... 5 hl's later and their gone. It's not exactly nib buffing now is it?
edit: even though lupus said not to :rolleyes: I'd like to see the other issue solved before this one (s/d/heal) is :)
So your one of the guys who like to resort to near exploiting tactics to take out a ppu, and thats why you think their fine? Get some skills before you talk to me.
It's not an exploit, it's not a near exploit, I've heard from kk before that it's been kept ingame because of balancing issues.
You want to bring along half an army just to kill the ppu's? Fine go do that, but I'd rather fight alongside a handful of people instead.
edit: even though lupus said not to :rolleyes: I'd like to see the other issue solved before this one (s/d/heal) is :)
Said not to what?
Said not to what?
Eeer, sorry confused you with callash :wtf:
I thought this was supposed to be a team-based game.
Take away the PPU's ability to do Heal Shelter and Deflect, you will reduce that individuals usefullness to a team.
APUs have Antiheal, Antishield, Antibuff, and Holy Antibuff (drops Heal, Shelter, & Deflect - right?) so one APU can strip the defences for the people that whine about PPUs.
Remove the PPU's ability to S&D and the APU's wont need the Holy Antibuff anymore.
Seems to me the one's complaining are either;
1. just miffed that they cant solo kill multiple targets, or
2. whining to have PPUs nerfed when they should be whining AT their APUs for being asshats and not debuffing!
(am gonna ignore the tl 14 sword wielding PPU's, no serious PPU would do that)
you should meet my ppu. thats no tl 14 sword she carries around.
Damn, so many people that ppus are not over powerd o_O. They need to nerf the S/D from a ppu by about 10% and then nerf Holy Heal by about 25% and I think that would be a step in the right direction.
k.. it's my time to open my piehole..
Tera: show me the ppu that survives 2 apus without using clipping sploits.
And you say this never/rarely happens? Ever been in OPwars facing more than 1 apu? - Or are your apus stupid enough not to team up to waste ppus?
How many ppus have we taken down Asc?:P
About the whole thread:
1. Selfbuffing allowed in every form: HS/HD/HH.
2. Foreign cast:HS or HD + HH (including the possible D/S selfcast)
3. Higher TL spell overriding lower: HS > S, HH > TL3 H
4. Non-Teamed ppl cannot change the buff. (NA 4 non-teamed ppu casting HD to remove HS)
5. Did i forget something? (typing while working)
And now.. correct me if i'm wrong - but aren't mmorpgs supposed to be based on teamwork? - sure you can go solo, but you shouldn't be able to do much.
That's why i luv WoW. You can go solo but it's slow and you'll most likely fail doing it. - add up a couple guys and do it just fine.
PVP - sure i can take down couple of alliance scum on my own. But if they get 3+ i'm down.(exept hunters.. haven't found a good way to fight them on solo) But if i team up with a some other dude (like with a rogue few days ago) we can take down quite many.
me(lvl 27 warlock) and rogue(lvl30) took down lvl 30 rogue and lvl 38 hunter - WINNAR <3 (in NC that would be /40 and /50 taking down /50 and capped) [/WOW]
Team work > Solo
ok, whats your name, iam 95% sure, one ppu and one apu will kick your ass.
thats how it should be 2>1.
Thats why the 50/50 hybrids were obliterated.
not quite, just brought down a peg.
if this only affects forgien cast, they should at least give it a test run.
Remove Para, and possibly make DB PvM only. Should balance it out a little more. Or bring back Spirit Mods.
DB pvm only ???
wanne fuck up PEs even more ?
and db shouldnt be removed from pvp for no reason.
btw add spirit mods!
About the whole thread:
1. Selfbuffing allowed in every form: HS/HD/HH.
2. Foreign cast:HS or HD + HH (including the possible D/S selfcast)
3. Higher TL spell overriding lower: HS > S, HH > TL3 H
4. Non-Teamed ppl cannot change the buff. (NA 4 non-teamed ppu casting HD to remove HS)
5. Did i forget something? (typing while working)
Team thing seems alright, but with this game being bugged as it is, If i crash I won't be able to get back in till most likely after my character model has dissapeared. Teaming in the middle of a big fight isn't the best this to do.
Keep the nib buffs in, I'd once again rather not bring so and so many people just to kill the ppu's.
Team work > Solo
Choice > Forced playstyles.
Original monk
23-02-05, 10:55
nice idea's hinch :) i think most of em are nice idea's, maybe even in combination with eachother as you told ... things i wouldnt like to see implemented is the 3% chance of removing buffs (S or D or whatever) when getting hit by a rare :) i bet im the one thats always gonna fall in that 3% lol
thats a bit to random maybe ... suddenly youre buff(s) drop out of nothing :) then i prefer spiritmods or sumthing .. btw did those get removed cause they where overpowered (fe: sh used as a shotie) or did they get removed cause of other reasons ?? i wouldnt mind having em back ingame you see ... never shot one before but i think i would like spiritkilling a ppu :P
also to turn everyone in hybrids that aint a bad idea an sich, it would be easier to balance em maybe but i prefer the way it is now with the option between 3 classes .. apu, ppu and hybrid ... hybrids gonna be alot less fun to play when every monk is a hybrid :/ and then the highest ppubase hybrids yust take over the role of the ppu's and same at the other side .. i know it aint bad having everyone running around like hybrids ... in the beginning of neocron it yust was this way to practically all monks ... but euh, since then monks have changed serieusly ..
anyway yust trowing some random toughts around, i like youre idea's alot tough .. also i like the thingie you are saying that all monkdefence should be psibased (for the rest they should be real frail indeed)... also full reduction of all spells by 15% ... and the removal of all the spells you mentioned ... with leaving para in the middle for KK to decide :)
dunno, this entire thread starting from page 1 in general offers alot to think about ...
edit: and yes Choice > Forced playstyles
erm...
The Choice is either go SOLO or TEAM UP.
Nice idea, really... It'd make ppuing a bit harder, but since anything would still go when it comes to self-casted spells as Callash said(Read the first page, and people seem to only have read the first bit... :p )
it wouldn't make them any less vulnerable... Me likey, go kk! :D
@asc ofc i'd agree :)
@descent hrmp it takes more than 2 apu's to drop me on my ppu when you get to 4 i have to start thinking though :)
@someone else cant remember who. You need neither shelter of deflector for the chaos caves just a heal sanctum and a holy heal.
Seriously though its good to see KK are actually looking at the ppu's and monk class with a view to fixing them but theyre just going about it the wrong way again. Hands up who doesnt see the obvious problem of getting effectively 3 classes of chars out of 1 skill branch oO
IMHO it is the HolyHeal what is overpowered. I can understand that it can heal 500 hitpoints, but why in 5 seconds !?
I'd make HolyHeal last longer, but heal slower.
I kind of like the idea of making them hybrids by nerfing the S/D and heal then lowering the requirements for HL and FA. They could make the APU spells do the same damage rather than random damage, that imo would make the monk much more intresting to play. I just think KK have went totaly the wrong way right from the start with nerfing the old hybrids, were they should have balanced them.
[TgR]KILLER
23-02-05, 13:21
always depends on the people playing.. but yea 2 apu's can take a ppu down..
hell i even killed a ppu all by myself once. sure he wasn't paying that much attention but he said omg you can't kill me i r 1337.. antibuff and a quick few stacks of FA had him on the ground lol..
me ( on my pe ) and 2/3 spies took out a PPU at an op a few days ago.. he had heal full buffs and he died..
killing a ppu just needs organisation ...... so leave ppu as it is :p
The whole monk class needs a complete overhaul.
Bring back Exotic Psi and balance it from there, heal should be a seperate sub-skill from shelter and def so if you can use the best s/d you can only use blessed heal, if you want holy heal you have less defence. Adjust all the modules accordingly.
Clearly with only 2 groups of spells it is too difficult to create a fair balance for both monks and others, perhaps with 3 groups like back in the old days it could work. I dunno, lots of possibilities.
REMOVE ALL PARA. firstly, it has a worse affect on gameplay than holy spells.
If there is a huge problem, which doesnt seem that there is - lower the effect of foreign cast spells.
without all the bitching (8 pages of it) 2 vs 1 will be unfair - dont scream nerf.
anyone with their own ppu will (should) win - obviously anyone with support will be better off.
its sad to see the sheer amount of crap from such a community..
[TgR]KILLER
23-02-05, 13:39
yea just lower the effect of spells casted by others some more. problem solved :p
but no.. i rather have KK fix the sync / right click bugs.. hacknet mobs.. DoY clubs / bars first.. after that think about screwing up stuff that IMHO still aint broken.
@descent hrmp it takes more than 2 apu's to drop me on my ppu when you get to 4 i have to start thinking though :)
yeah, i was testing my idea last night, if you add Para and DB in the equation then it becomes more difficult.
and its really hard to talk about the people at the top of the PPU class, Imo its only them that make the class seem overpowered, Most PPU's can't handle PPUing 1/2 people against multple enemies.
I like the idea. Might bring some new fun into NC. Its gonna be a hard time in the beginning. Also might need some more balancing, psi attack 2 and TSG for example rip through everything without deflector running.
Another thing about it is that people will have to carry around more than one gun. So if you hack a belt theres actually a chance of getting a weapon once again. Although tanks will be fine with CS/TSG, riflers with HL/TS assault rifle which won`t ever drop.
On the other hand i think before such a massive change there should be some smaller tweaks to see if those already help balancing the problem like nerfing (foreigncast) heals and removing para.
What leads me to another point, what about para? You didnt even mention it, does this mean its gonna go unchanged? Cause i`d hate that. :(
/edit
Another thought, a PPU with heal OR s OR d is a dead PPU. Cause everyones gonna go for him first...
People are acting like its a massive change when infact it won't change much, the only class that will be badly effected by this if at all is the APU/PPU combo. Self buffs are not effected so a tank and a spy can use there own deflector and get a holy shelter of the PPU. PE is unaffected the difference from self buff deflector if its capped to getting a HD from a PPU is so slight. They allready said they won't be bring the Heal into it just yet and whats so hard for a apu monk to take one lom pill and get just enough to use TL 3 deflector. Would it really affect damage on there holylighting that much o_O they would prolly cap a TL 3 deflector with there PPW alone
People are acting like its a massive change when infact it won't change much, the only class that will be badly effected by this if at all is the APU/PPU combo. Self buffs are not effected so a tank and a spy can use there own deflector and get a holy shelter of the PPU. PE is unaffected the difference from self buff deflector if its capped to getting a HD from a PPU is so slight. They allready said they won't be bring the Heal into it just yet and whats so hard for a apu monk to take one lom pill and get just enough to use TL 3 deflector. Would it really affect damage on there holylighting that much o_O they would prolly cap a TL 3 deflector with there PPW alone
problem is, its the APU that needs a PPU the most, I can see it now,
defending an OP, watching my APU's go down like a sack of shit to 1 or more raptors, us killing all the enemies, then watching the enemy PPU's gr out due to the fact nobody is left to HAB them :wtf:
I do like the idea.
APUs would decrease in number, this class becoming much harder to play
PPUs won't be so powerfull anymore and mass ppus would not be a so unfair advantage anymore
Spys (sniper and doner) will become real hitmen
Tanks will have no changes as they already know to play without all buffs
PEs and hybrids will come back numerous in op and it's fine for me :)
The only thing i would like is a new anti-buff weapon (pistol/rifle/canon) in order to be able to kill a solo ppu without having an APU in the team.
Ho and last, please give us back the TEST SERVER to test this idea ;)
Well i've finally caught up with this thread and I give credit to the KK guys for at least throwing this out here.
Don't agree with the original idea personally and I don't entirely agree with most other posts here.
What i'd maybe like to see is the total removal of all Holy spells. PPUs will still be the only class able to cast Blessed heal and Blessed Shelter, PEs will be able to cast Blessed Deflector (fitting in with their JoaT image - they can now be a part PPU). PPUs are still needed and are useful still.
PvM and PvP becomes slightly harder because tactics to avoid taking damage come into play a bit more (as opposed to just standing there with a Holy Heal ticking away)
anyways, just an idea... congrats on prompting a good, almost flame free, discussion
I see your point but then who doesn't go down like a sack of shit to the raptor you could still heal them and raptors are not that common a sight. If they do this change maybe they should make it easyer for the APU to use TL 3 buffs without gimping.
I see your point but then who doesn't go down like a sack of shit to the raptor you could still heal them and raptors are not that common a sight. If they do this change maybe they should make it easyer for the APU to use TL 3 buffs without gimping.
I do realise that everyone gets near enough annilated by raptors, but you go ahead with this idea then you are provoking a mass of droners being made, everyone and their mother will make a droner just to able to kill those who can't withstand them,
its pretty hard to kill someone with holy deflector and a heal atm, if this goes ahead, NOBODY except PPU's will able to survive. So ineffect you aren't solving the problem, just changing it.
I do realise that everyone gets near enough annilated by raptors, but you go ahead with this idea then you are provoking a mass of droners being made, everyone and their mother will make a droner just to able to kill those who can't withstand them,
its pretty hard to kill someone with holy deflector and a heal atm, if this goes ahead, NOBODY except PPU's will able to survive. So ineffect you aren't solving the problem, just changing it. Well then they need to stop pretending drones are not overpowered and hit them with the nerf bat. I'm lvling my constructer who uses drones and I can kill people very easyly with non rare drones there sick. If you're out in the open and theres a raptor drone firing at you, you're going no where you are fuked and you know it :)
/Edit
Of coarse droners will tell you , you need to find the droner ... but thats like saying on TS "so whos wants to die trying to find the droner who could be anywhere in the zone most prolly on top of some hill that you can't reach on foot " :rolleyes:
What i'd maybe like to see is the total removal of all Holy spells. PPUs will still be the only class able to cast Blessed heal and Blessed Shelter, PEs will be able to cast Blessed Deflector (fitting in with their JoaT image - they can now be a part PPU). PPUs are still needed and are useful still.
I dont know if you meant that they should change requirements but since you said that PEs would be using blessed deflector I guess you didnt..
Ever seen a blessed hybrid? Blessed Shelter/holy deflector/blessed heal. And uses Psi Attack 2 or something else to kill enemies. Why would people still play PPUs if a blessed hybrid is almost as good? (they dont cap shelter/heal)
People (this isnt meant against Capt Rik) is acting like this is a huge problem when infact it aint. If a PE attacks a tank and then a ppu shows up, the PE is gonna die. But he will die just as well when anyone else shows up too. As a PPU you are supposed to have traded off your offence to be the absolutely best support class. And of coz should that mean that the ppus are making the other chars shine. BUT they shouldnt make others unkillable.
As stated before, PPUs are in general fine. Just tone down the effect of foreign cast about 10% (and remove nibbuffing). Then its as perfect as it can be without remaking the whole class. People complaining so much about PPUs actually should login to the game and start training. They really arent THAT "overpowered" as you claim. Not even by a longshot.
Lil T: The fact is that a correctly setup <insert ANY class here> WONT go down by a single Raptor if they are fully buffed and have holy heal running. Not even APUs (though as soon as the heal runs out they drop). But I agree with you. Drones in general and Raptors particularly do abit too much damage. The fact that you need to be setup correctly AND have a PPU up your ass to survive even a single one is kinda silly. Even most blessed hybrids go down in notime and thats with full buffs and a heal running. KK have mentioned before that they are looking into perhaps toning down the raptor abit and I guess we all hope that will happen.
Passive Psi Modules:
Shelter
Deflector
Boosters
low level anti-posion
low level anti-DB
Soulclusters
Agressive Psi Modules:
Fire
Energy
anti-buff
anti-heal
low level anti-para
Psi-sheild
Exotic Psi Modules:
Heal
Rez
DB
Para
Posion
distract mind
provoke enemy
Mixed Requirements:
high level anti-posion - Exotic + passive
high level anti-DB - Exotic + passive
high level anti-para - Exotic + agressive
Maximum mix achievable would be, say level 3 is highest, 2 mid, 1 low.
3 of one 2 of another, 1 of the other, very low psi power
3 of one 2 of another, decent amount of psi power
2 of one 2 of another, 2 of the other, very low psi power.
etc
Passive Psi Modules:
Shelter
Deflector
Boosters
low level anti-posion
low level anti-DB
Soulclusters
Agressive Psi Modules:
Fire
Energy
anti-buff
anti-heal
low level anti-para
Psi-sheild
Exotic Psi Modules:
Heal
Rez
DB
Para
Posion
distract mind
provoke enemy
Mixed Requirements:
high level anti-posion - Exotic + passive
high level anti-DB - Exotic + passive
high level anti-para - Exotic + agressive
Maximum mix achievable would be, say level 3 is highest, 2 mid, 1 low.
3 of one 2 of another, 1 of the other, very low psi power
3 of one 2 of another, decent amount of psi power
2 of one 2 of another, 2 of the other, very low psi power.
etc
i do like this idea tbh, you are ineffect making an entire new class. this idea provokes more teamwork and tactics and no one person is invicible.
recycle of something i posted/said about a year and a half ago oO
recycle of something i posted/said about a year and a half ago oO
should of got it patented or something :p
ok, well done hinch!
recycle of something i posted/said about a year and a half ago oO
Well no, it's a updated version of what it was like in beta 3
Original monk
23-02-05, 15:55
recycle of something i posted/said about a year and a half ago oO
its also not the first time this ppu discussion has been held hehe :) better call em merfs instead of monks :D
Rogue Arson
23-02-05, 15:56
Ya know, the more I see some of the ideas in here, the more I think there is prolly a really easy answer and we're just missing it. Something along the lines of all current spells being self cast only, and using the group heals/shelters/deflecters for others. Now before ya'll start screaming about unplayable ppus, think it through.
You're still nearly indestructable yourself, you still have the ability to support your group, though slightly less effectively. On a plus side, with only group heal working on others, you would see nib healing take a dive =) I personally think that the anti poison/anti para spells should be exceptions. Its just a thought. It would cut WAY down on noob buffing, since the only heal you can hit others with is group. It would weaken the ppus role with others somewhat, but not nearly as much as some of the other ideas tossed around. It would also keep the ppu as a stand alone, beat me all you want, tank.
Just my 2 cents.
Ya know, the more I see some of the ideas in here, the more I think there is prolly a really easy answer and we're just missing it. Something along the lines of all current spells being self cast only, and using the group heals/shelters/deflecters for others. Now before ya'll start screaming about unplayable ppus, think it through.
You're still nearly indestructable yourself, you still have the ability to support your group, though slightly less effectively. On a plus side, with only group heal working on others, you would see nib healing take a dive =) I personally think that the anti poison/anti para spells should be exceptions. Its just a thought. It would cut WAY down on noob buffing, since the only heal you can hit others with is group. It would weaken the ppus role with others somewhat, but not nearly as much as some of the other ideas tossed around. It would also keep the ppu as a stand alone, beat me all you want, tank.
Just my 2 cents.
If KK are not up for an overhaul, this is my prefered route.
Passive Psi Modules:
Shelter
Deflector
Boosters
low level anti-posion
low level anti-DB
Soulclusters
Agressive Psi Modules:
Fire
Energy
anti-buff
anti-heal
low level anti-para
Psi-sheild
Exotic Psi Modules:
Heal
Rez
DB
Para
Posion
distract mind
provoke enemy
Mixed Requirements:
high level anti-posion - Exotic + passive
high level anti-DB - Exotic + passive
high level anti-para - Exotic + agressive
Maximum mix achievable would be, say level 3 is highest, 2 mid, 1 low.
3 of one 2 of another, 1 of the other, very low psi power
3 of one 2 of another, decent amount of psi power
2 of one 2 of another, 2 of the other, very low psi power.
etc Something like that would be nice but you would have to have everyone agreeing includeding KK
The current blessed hybrids are close too being how monks should be its just there defences that makes them so hard to kill
/Edit of coarse this is just how I vision a monk to be everyclass should be able to support them selfs and work with every other class as a team
I do realise that everyone gets near enough annilated by raptors, but you go ahead with this idea then you are provoking a mass of droners being made, everyone and their mother will make a droner just to able to kill those who can't withstand them,
its pretty hard to kill someone with holy deflector and a heal atm, if this goes ahead, NOBODY except PPU's will able to survive. So ineffect you aren't solving the problem, just changing it.
I dropped a PPu and an APU last night with a raptor - but the PPU was not buffed, and when he realised his health was dropping (half way) he through a yellow instead of a white, and then it was too late for a heal. Once done the apu was a walking duck
Well then they need to stop pretending drones are not overpowered and hit them with the nerf bat. I'm lvling my constructer who uses drones and I can kill people very easyly with non rare drones there sick. If you're out in the open and theres a raptor drone firing at you, you're going no where you are fuked and you know it :)
/Edit
Of coarse droners will tell you , you need to find the droner ... but thats like saying on TS "so whos wants to die trying to find the droner who could be anywhere in the zone most prolly on top of some hill that you can't reach on foot " :rolleyes:
hmmm, one on one, I will back a dronner against all classes except PPU and a APU is he sees it comming (APU does massive damage with Holy Lightning) if he dont see it comming he is dead. 1v2 I back the 2 ... as a drone can only follow one, while they splitup and hunt for you....2v2 2 drones I back the drones unless they not communicating.... Other spies vs dronner, I back other spies, melee tanks (fast chars) I am not sure, net code gives t to the tank to get away ....
Do I think droners are over powered, I think they have an array of drones and if your resists are not up to the task, then they may seem to hurt a lot. At same time they loose twice as much when they die, even up to 2 rares
As for the PPU thng, I hope something good comes out of it, some good ideas, and KK have a fair amont of work
teamwork yes its of course needed in a mmorpg but its come to a point where almost no one pvp without a ppu thats ******** u should not NEED one special class to pvp properly he makes to huuuuuuuuuge a difference in pvp
Well, make em go and ill go into lom factory and we can see
no apus no ppus left in game.
nuff said
once again ive been evil and violate dosmething i didnt even know :O
what did my signature now violate?
http://forum.neocron.com/images/neocron/buttons/edit.gif button is your friend ;)
Why do PPUs have to be immortal?
If the blessed and holy spells were foreign-cast only, PPUs would be as mortal as everyone else. It wouldn't affect any other class, but requires some thinking in combat (PPU would have to stand back, or maybe even hide in some cases, instead of being a buffing turret in the middle of the battlegrounds). And you'd have to choose between protecting the PPU, attacking the combat enemies or attacking the enemy PPU. There would be an element of tactics instead of just brute-force fights.
Why do PPUs have to be immortal?
If the blessed and holy spells were foreign-cast only, PPUs would be as mortal as everyone else. It wouldn't affect any other class, but requires some thinking in combat (PPU would have to stand back, or maybe even hide in some cases, instead of being a buffing turret in the middle of the battlegrounds). And you'd have to choose between protecting the PPU, attacking the combat enemies or attacking the enemy PPU. There would be an element of tactics instead of just brute-force fights.
Now that is the worst idea I have heard so far.
Miss Naughty
23-02-05, 18:21
Personally I think that Blessed and Holy shelters and deflectors are too powerful against players weapons. Tone down their effectiveness in pvp would help balance out a few issues. PPUs should have to use PSI shields (or whatever they are called) more, that way they can't stay invulnerable forever.
PPUs are far too tough to kill and invite dubious tactics like noob buffing to take them down.
Another idea - certain buffs can only be given to people in the same team as you - at least in warzones. That stops noob buffing at op wars.
someone from sxr had some excellent idea about ppu buffs awhile back (dont remember who was it, sorry):
the idea was to bring the strategic element into ppu play and also to bring the unused ppu spells back into action.
normal heal/s/d would be self cast only
group heal/s/d would be self&foreign cast at the same time
sanctums... dunno, foreign only? Either that or same as groups.
From my point of view, the idea is awesome, as it move ppus into more strategic position than the current one - better for organised fights (op fighting etc) but harder for lone support.
Still, i just think PPUs are too powerful and before making any tactical/balancing changes they just need to be nerfed down. Basically, i'd like to see ALL psi powers reduced to 70-80% of their current powers. Then and only then, we can try to do some tweaks to reverse/weaken their god-role in combat.
didn't wanna read through all the pages so this might have already been mentioned but i think mc5 will be empty if heal removes def and shelter or you can only use shelter and not def, if foreign cast is removed then alot of mobs will need a nerf, mc5 in particular.
ppu's do need a looking into but this is a bad idea imo.
ps make holy para mob based only
hope you saw that :p
it would be nice for groups buffs to be used for foreign cast and normal for the ppu but then, who wants to be buffing the enemy in an op war??
Logan_storm_03
23-02-05, 19:02
spirit mod any one?
spirit mod any one?
the spirit mod would effect the PPU. we dont want to make the PPU mortal but lower his effect on other units.
a PPU that cant kill anyone and can not be killed is OK. a PPU that is able to save one guy fom being killed by another guy is OK too.
but as soon as a PPU can make SURE someone isnt killed by 2 PPL there is something wrong.
Just a question/comment for KK.
If the purposed changes to the PPU spells are made will the damage caused by weapons and mobs at all levels be rebalanced accordingly?
It would seem to me that making these changes would open the floodgate of complaints about PvP being unbalanced to the person who got the first shoot off or towards runners that could self-cast mid-level spells and have good offence at the same time.
Perhaps it would make more sense to have a defence level cap. For example a character with very high natural defences such as a tank would gain less benefit from PPU spells compared to a spy that has low natural defence. This would give spies the defence they would need to survive in the high level danger areas such as the caves, MC5 and the like were they don’t get the advantage of being able to use distance weapons but would decrease the near god like damage a tank could take. I think this would also solve some of the problems during OP wars as well.
Ghanima :angel:
the spirit mod would effect the PPU. we dont want to make the PPU mortal but lower his effect on other units.
a PPU that cant kill anyone and can not be killed is OK. a PPU that is able to save one guy fom being killed by another guy is OK too.
but as soon as a PPU can make SURE someone isnt killed by 2 PPL there is something wrong.
thats true, maybe make an adjustment to the psi power required for holy heal, def and shelter like they did with holy para.
but then its making it hard for smalls clans when it comes to needing ppu support.
this would make the battle go in favour of the clan with the most ppu's
dunno tbh :confused:
spirit mod any one?
I would love KK for spirit mods again :D
Sadly it aint gonna happen :(
I vote get rid of para and then see if everyone likes the effect on pvp then.
I don't beleive this change will better anyone and if any ideas come of this a test server needs to be in place and full and proper testing needs to be done! I want test reports etc not just people testing setups!
enigma_b17
23-02-05, 21:36
I would love KK for spirit mods again :D
Sadly it aint gonna happen :(
I vote get rid of para and then see if everyone likes the effect on pvp then.
I don't beleive this change will better anyone and if any ideas come of this a test server needs to be in place and full and proper testing needs to be done! I want test reports etc not just people testing setups!
only thing thats "wrong" with ppu's, is parashock. Removing it will never happen, but a nerf, maybe removing the mouse turn effect and nerfin the run slowdown might be on the cards. What makes me wonder is that it took 3 threads on ere for them to make a post about ppus, yet theres about 200000000021 threads about parashock and its still ere lol
the re-introduction of exotic psi use will be the final nail in the coffin for me.
Gets the hammer ready.
There needs to be an adjustment that doesn't involve putting even more spells into the ppus quickbelt, that doesn't make for some nifty exploits and that doesn't make ppus totally ridiculously impossible to play...
And no, the ppu can't be forced to run around with both TL 3 heal/def + Tl 25 shelter AND holy buffs in his belt, that'd just be taking the piss, especially with all the bugs that are involved when talking item-movement between the qb and inventory.
Yes, a ppu should be killable, but not by 1 or 2 people if he's not trying to revive someone/keep someone alive except himself. I don't see why people are so keen on making the ppu more vulnerable... if your enemy has one man standing, who happens to be a ppu, then I don't see you getting shot in the back in the near future.
Smallest alteration I can think of atm: Make spells NOT last longer because of crouching. The way it currently works is... not realistic, to say the least. Oh, and as have been said before, higher level spells should at all times take over from lower level spells.
Just my current thoughts (my headache is making me a bit aggressive :wtf: ) :rolleyes:
I just like the idea of making self cast overide foreign cast. It sucks when you get the wrong buffs casted on you and it makes it so you need to kill_self so you can use your guns.
Edit: Wow 700 posts already.
Perhaps removing the duration bar of the buffs would stir things up a bit. I'm convinced that little steps are key to find balance. Maybe the duration of any buff should be random, anything between +/- 50% of what it is now.
I'm starting to like the old idea of haveing a total HP that s/d can absorb or a timer of 15 min.
Edit: Ok that did not come out right. I ment to say that s/d could take a set amount of damage or last 15 min which ever one comes first.
what problem with a ppu....? the only ppu problem i can think of is the stupid casting when u just moving your arms and nothing happens..... just make sure that ppus cant use low tl weapons to fuck around with and then there is no problem.....
..... just fix the casting i mean i dont think anyone really likes the nc2 casting.
braydagner
24-02-05, 02:19
In my opinion, PPUs are fine. Leave them alone.
But if it goes through, a spell that combines shelter and deflector into one spell (maybe decrease its total effect by 75-50%) would be nice, seeing how APUs have no real force protection other than Heavy Deflector...and that hasn't helped much.
darkservent
24-02-05, 02:52
Ok I havnt read every post ere but I think this PPU issue is really outta hand. Theres 3 things that can be done which may have been mentioned by someone in this thread but I'll restate it again.
1) Have it so that PPUs can cast 1 Holy Buff, 1 Blessed Buff and 1 Normal Buff. So a PPU can do Holy shelter, Blessed Deflect and Normal Heal or any other combination.
2) Have the whole of single Buffs only idea apply to Holy and Blessed Spells, leaving the low level spells out. This will leave the APUs, Spies and PEs with some defences but restrict them to one Higher Defense. So for example A Spy can get Holy shelter or a Blessed and an all low level buffs such as a normal deflect or heal.
3) Same as (2) but he can only cast ONE additional low level buff. So Spy could get Holy or Blessed Shelter and he can only cast either a deflect or heal.
PPU's don't make pvp non-intersting for me, hell if anything, it makes pvp better. If I want to have a fair faight against someone, I'll go to neofrag or just duel someone in the city (I know, DoY's nf is still, somehow fucked). What makes pvp non-interesting is Parashock. Remove that and the game will be a whole lot more balanced.
There a ways to combat people with ppus if you are alone, you can always tl 3 heal/def and even a nib shelter if you can get it, the only thing that really, really fucks you over is parashock.
Now about Noob buffing and healing If I do it I only use noob heal on who ever the PPU is healing and it works. Its the Parra shock that fucks everything up and makes me want to reach through the screen and smack the cunt its like cheers thx much for making me totaly unable to defend my self. Do I carry anti shocks ? NO they don't work
If you also remove noob healing how is one meant to kill a blessed hybrid ?
Its the only way you can take down a blessed hybrid 1 vs 1 currently unless your an APU
the re-introduction of exotic psi use will be the final nail in the coffin for me.
Yeah, I see your reasoning behind that, oh wait, you did not give any :wtf:
Update: These changes are supposed to only affect foreign casts. Selfcasts should remain unchanged, with everything possible that is.
Foreign cast really doesnt help a PE that much, so the PE can buff himself as usual and just nick holy heals from the ppu. Nothing much changed there. The tank will go in for a shelter and heal, since PEs and tanks generally have good frc resists. Nothing much changed there. The spy will also be able to self-cast defl and generally can get pretty decent force resists as well. Coupled with a holy heal and a shelter from the ppu (if he doesnt just s/d himself), not much changes there either.
The apu will suffer a tad, since he'll most likely have to go in for a shelter and holy heal. As a result, other apus will have to carry around psi attack 2 to do some force dmg, and the PE, tank, and spy all have rare or epics items that do force anyway. If the apu opts for defl, he'll be alot more susceptible to a majority of the attacks he'll encounter, thus making the apu the only class to suffer the most from this nerf.
Finally, as ive already pointed out, this doesnt really change the unbalancing tendency of ppus, since people will still need/want them just as much as they do now. The PE will benefit from their holy heal and primes, exactly the same as they do now. The tank and spy will use ppu primes, holy shelter and holy heal, and just tl 3 defl themselves. And the apu will be slightly less effective, but with the playing style of folks in-game, it wont be noticable.
I think this is a bad idea. Not meant as a personal attack, of course. Just voicing my opinion.
Romove the whole holy line of ppu spells (including all para), and adjust the mobs accordingly. This will resolve the PPU problem.
Original monk
24-02-05, 14:27
Yeah, I see your reasoning behind that, oh wait, you did not give any :wtf:
as ya know omituens is the only hybrid that stayed hybrid with the first giant hybridnerf on saturn ..
i can understand he would be dissapointed if hybrids and monks got changed in a big way ..
having 4 monks myself, and as a fan of those cloacked friends i can understand he's feelings
i also understand that some people have issues with how monks are balanced altough i dont think its that bad as some people in this thread claim it is ...
its hard to kill a very skilled ppu ... but its atleast as hard to kill any skilled person on any other class ... if youre not dead by then cause other classes do hurt you while a ppu only freezes and DB's and tries to keep emself alive ... if its a sword/pistol/rifle ppu (aka slightly gimped) then yust run away lol (no parajokes please :) )
with other people involved the pputeam has an advantage ... like any team has advantage over a solo person ..
enigma_b17
24-02-05, 21:44
Posting on Behalf of -FN- Of SXR
Before this thread even started, we started talking about Monks over in the SXR Forums (http://forums.synergyxr.net/viewtopic.php?t=60). Then I was pointed over to this thread and just wanted to throw my two cents in. I like many others are sitting on the NC "sidelines", waiting and hoping for improvements like Item Tracking and Playershops. If and when these features make it to the table, many of us we'll be considering coming back. However, major gameplay balance changes like this one, will also have a bearing on returning vets, I'm sure. If this current suggestion on PPUs went retail, it wouldn't be a 'pro' on the "Reasons to come back" List :(
---------------------------
Ok so what do you think of KKs suggestion of making shelter/deflector mutually exclusive?
Instituting balance in a game from a technical point in a game is one thing. Another is WHY things in a game are the way they are. How on Earth, from an RP and game background point of view, are they going to explain that only one buff can be cast on a player at once?
"This just in from Crahn HQ - an alarming outbreak of a neurological disease called 'Nerfthemonks' has been reported to be spreading among the NC community. The leading symptom to this condition is quite obvious. PSI Monks have been reported to lose the ability within their mental capacity to cast two modules on a Runner and maintain their stability..... blah blah fuckin blah"
That's stupid. There's no in-game way to sensibly validate these changes. I think the idea is ridiculous. Balance the existing spells by level of effectiveness and introducing NEW items for balance. More content to balance instead of removal is a better. Coming up with counters to existing problems and givng that as an option to they players takes us exponential steps away from the Cookie-Cutter players.
I feel PPUs should stay nearly invincible. That's the fun of playing the class. I've been seeing too many other MMORPG's where the 'healing' class is vital to a team, but fall over dead in high wind. I like the way NC's PPUs are as God's among men, but they should flat out not be able to kill anyone except with a Soulcluster. Please remove the damage from Para's completely. I've hated this since day one, and to me, it makes no sense why Para even does damage. However, I *do* think Heals, Shelters, and Deflectors, should be self-cast only, leaving GROUP and SANCTUM spells the weapon of choice for PPUs.
they need to bring spirit mod back
100% Agreed. Add the "ticking down counter" that Mosquito Drones have on heals.
BAM. Well on your way to being balanced. Also, if they want to "tone down" the number of Spirit SH's, go back to the "Jonny Whatshisface" GM is an NPC thing and be sure to only do it 25 times on the server over a month or so. Assuming Item Tracking is ever implemented, once one disappears, Jonny comes back out for a day. This could also be the start of a whole string of powerful rare items, in the hands of a few single individuals who can ultimately make a name for themselves, similar to the story behind the Wyatt Earp (read it, it's cool).
Also in that thread, hinch had mentioned a possibility of the rare weapons having a % chance of hitting and being a "critical".
1) apu anti shelter casts 50% quicker at a SLIGHTLY higher mana cost (anti shelt only NOT HAB) BUT it has a 30% chance to knock off any heals/deflectors already in place.
2) ALL rare weapons have a 3% chance to cancel a running shelter or heal or deflector and hense score a "critical" hit.
3) reduce effectiveness of ALL ppu spells by 12.76% (this number comes from a while ago when a few of us worked out the correct balance of the class )
4) lower the buff amount given to resists and hp from the booster spells. (only slightly)
5) The hybrid solution. Make ALL monks hybrid and make the 115/115 hybrid possiable again. With a couple of changes. First up lower the cap of all monk resists down a shit load to bring them inline with the NC canon which states they are frail and hardly look capable of standing up. A monks defences are ALL supposed to be psi based. Combine this with an overall effectiveness reduction of ALL spells by approx 15% remove the following spells. Psi shield, soul clusters, parashocks, psi combat boosts, anti poisions, anti db's, anti para's and all high lvl rares for monks leaving FA and HL as the only rares usable on the apu side and then true sight as the only ppu rare. Remove the ability for other classes to cast ANY spells on a monk and set limits on the monks so that after a certain lvl of points are spent in apu and ppu that they can no longer use "lower" spells ie: when at 115 ppu you cant use a tl3 heal anymore. Remove the ability for monks to cast any kind of weapon usage buff on themselfs (thinking mainly melee combat here)
1) Don't agree. % chances to remove an effect don't seem very "skillful" to me. Just don't like it.
2) Same thing. I don't like the % chance to completely remove something. BUT, going off this idea, perhaps a Rare Weapon with damage over say, 117%, has X% chance to "penetrate" the shelter/deflector for one shot. 117% giving a 10% chance, 118@15%, 119@20%, and 120@25%. So for instance:
Two tanks with S/D go into a fight. I have a CS that is 118/119/120/111. I'm going after a fully buffed Tank by myself. He has a crap CS of 102/111/99/105. His CS will never have a chance to penetrate my S/D. However, in my burst of 4, 3 hit. In those 3 hits, each has a 15% chance to completely disregard that there is a shelter and deflector present and the victim Tank's resists are what count.
This adds an element of tactics when you're getting your gear AND setting up your resists. Both matter more now. I think that's a lot better than everyone having a random chance to Anti-buff you for no real reason, other than "it's a rare".
3) I'm 1000% all for this. I know I said before that I felt PPU's buffs should be self-cast only and they should use groups/sanctums otherwise, but this is only with the current state of the spells. Reduce efffectiveness and they'd be fine to cast on everyone. In fact, reducing only foreign buffs would be fine as well.
4) I have never seen boosters as a problem. They're temporary and you can only have one of each 'genre' at a time. Don't really agree with this one.
5) I hate hybrids. But this idea might work if Monk's had the CON that was listed in their background as hinch says. But if you reduce the CON, where do those remaining points go to keep all the classes even in point distribution?
Another point of view to take it as would be, and yes this is kind of adapted from the MMORPG I've been playing, RYL, so sue me, change the individual interaction of a PPU into more of a group interactoin. Here's what I mean:
At the moment, a PPU directly effects each person he casts on. Why not introduce a set of Team-based Sanctum Spells that effect team members in a radius. We'll call them "Auras". Look at the Life Off in RYL - they cast Encourage and all their teammates gain an increase in HP and MP. So how about a PPU Aura that when cast, starts slowly draining PSI, but adds to a particular stat within your team. Couple this reducing the effects of foreign buffs, it becomes a matter of preference for PPUs and their teammates. Is my PSI best used casting S/D and Primaries or could I be better served as a minor team buffer and concentrate on keeping MYSELF alive. With S/D, one heal, and this new type of Aura running, a PPU and Tank should *barely* be able to take out Two Tanks and have a good possibility of losing. The buffs + aura should NOT make other players invincible as the buffs alone do now.
This is what the PPU's effectiveness need to be reduced to. Their OWN effects can stay God-like as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I like running into a lone PPU and saying "ok, hopefully we're about to have a good challenge boys". A PPU's job and forced selection of 20 modules on them at all times deserves the ability to escape death most of the time. An APU is the perfect converse. In reality an APU can carry ONE rare on them in slot 1 and all boosters in the rest. He can die all day and loses little to nothing. The PPU shouldn't be punished in that capacity as he IS the other side of the spectrum.
Hope to see some good changes in the future on PPUs :) Keep up the good work Devs!
Well thought out as usual FN but surely you see that something needs be done and that chances are it won't be a quick or problem-free process to fix this. That being true maybe any BIG change is a good thing just because it breaks the status quo and gets things moving.
I think not doing things becuase it's bad RP is just no excuse, this matter was too serious to be ignored years ago after all. Storyline consistency is non-existant in Neocron anyway after all.
ps make holy para mob based only
lmao the only thing that u will use holy para on is a lil bastard ..... thats right give ppus less rares to use....
can ppl like fix other stuff in the game maybe put some new rares in
ps - if this happens everyone will start complaining everywhere is too hard to lvl, can someone rezz my ppu, i need a rezz wheres a ppu when you need one , damnit i need pokes now, s/d oh wait let me think...... bah im dead, oh shit a pe deflector myself oh ffs his got a judge >.<,
ppu see low lvl ememy *runs off and grs to a safe zone*
Em.. spirit mods..
I wouldn't have any problem with those if YOU COULD BLOODY SEE BEING HIT BY THEM..
how hard it's to take the nice little knock effect from nailguns and add it to SH?!
Really.. how many of you would just stand there like you've been biten by mosquito when you are shot by an elephantrifle..
or something like FN said.. a little 5sec timer showing that you've just been hit by spiritbullet.
In the end ppus are fine, there's no need to really change them. PPUs are just doing what they are supposed to do - keeping ppl alive. Perhaps bringing back the spiritmod(FiXXd) would make ppl to shut the fuck up about ppus being overpowered..
The thing with the spirt mods though, would you like to see people running around with them which are armed with a healing light ?
I'd say that would be overpowered right there
/Edit the spirt mods are gone get over it
Original monk
25-02-05, 13:45
/Edit the spirt mods are gone get over it
true, but they can yust call em sporatmod and bring em back in :P
nah dont mind my ramblings, altough i love the idea of spiritmods with the little countdowntimer as mentioned above here :)
true, but they can yust call em sporatmod and bring em back in :P
nah dont mind my ramblings, altough i love the idea of spiritmods with the little countdowntimer as mentioned above here :)
I fought some spys in NC 1 that had a spirt mod I lost only becase of that everytime I recast my shelter they would remove it. The whole fight would consist of me trying to keep my self buffed a countdown timer may work though.
yeah, people were using spirit modded SH like sawn-off shotguns up close...annoying as fuck
Jesterthegreat
25-02-05, 14:39
/Edit the spirt mods are gone get over it
in the same way all forms of para should be...
THE_TICK!!!!
25-02-05, 14:55
bleh para loves you...i just dont think it should last as long..i think if the effects of para where for about half as long..it wouldn't be as much of a problem to jesters....aura :)
in the same way all forms of para should be...
ahah that would be great
PARRA is gone get over it !!!
:lol:
Dribble Joy
25-02-05, 15:05
Parrapa the rapper?
Bugs Gunny
25-02-05, 15:33
Holy heal is the only real killer in pvp.
You can take down someone to 10%, holy heal comes on, the fight turns around and you're dead.
S/D ok it makes resists a lot better, but cmon, it's not like you do half the dammage afterwards.
I like the all monks hybrid idea a lot. But then mobs would have to be "tuned" again, and we all know how hard this seems to be.
First post updated again.
Dribble Joy
25-02-05, 16:26
Weee :).
//edit:
Frankly, asking the community about this probably won't bring about an idea on this subject.
We are too divided, with many simply not wanting change (selfish gits).
KK need to go back to basics really on this issue.
HOW ABOUT REMOVING PARA !!!!
at least fixing it so it only affects your run speed not 'look speed'
and as for "fixing the ppu problem" give foreign buffs a nerf. then a ppu can help someone stay alive but not give them the power the ppu has.
as for anyone that bitches about ppus having god mode....they are suppose to be incredibly powerful at healing and protecting. -deal.
if you cant kill a ppu without resorting to the tl25 shelter then dont try.
it is possible to kill ppu's - they die all the time...
virgil caine
25-02-05, 17:35
Just saw the update.
Well done KK guys, thanks for having the wisdom to see the faults in the Idea.
Original monk
25-02-05, 17:40
Update: Well, we thought the whole thing over, and talked to numerous people from the GM Team and the community about this. The result is: We will NOT implement this idea. It will not do what we intend it would do. Anyone can carry around a Piercing- and an Energy-Weapon due to the Tangent Epic Weapons which won't drop. That means we would basically remove Shelter and Deflector from the game, and that is not what we intend to do. We will post again when the next idea is thought through enough to be presented to you. I want to thank you all for your numerous replies :)
i see, so this particular idea in this form will not proceed for now ..
(so all monks can sleep on there both ears for now hehe)
as i said before, nice the KKteam is holding a kind of referendum so everyone can tell he's opinion on the current state of monks and possible tweaks or changes ...
ow my its that late allready that means weekend is starting !!!!
en revoir, enjoy
I know its been said not to discuss parra but could they not just replace that with a teleportation spell . After all parra is ment to aid in the PPU monks escape
/Edit
Update: Well, we thought the whole thing over, and talked to numerous people from the GM Team and the community about this. The result is: We will NOT implement this idea. It will not do what we intend it would do. Anyone can carry around a Piercing- and an Energy-Weapon due to the Tangent Epic Weapons which won't drop. That means we would basically remove Shelter and Deflector from the game, and that is not what we intend to do. We will post again when the next idea is thought through enough to be presented to you. I want to thank you all for your numerous replies :)
oh well thats that then :)
Dribble Joy
25-02-05, 19:14
as for anyone that bitches about ppus having god mode....they are suppose to be incredibly powerful at healing and protecting. -deal.
Incorrect, it has never been stated that PPU are MEANT to have great defences.
KK introduced them as support chars. That does not infer high self defences. It means that they assist others.
A substantial nerf (or even removal) of the PPU's defences would go a long way to remove their importance.
The main problem with this however is when you get more than one PPU supporting, and the situation then becomes no different from the one we have now.
Unless you remove foreign casting on those with high PPU.
Slight edit to my last post, though this place may not be the best place to find agreement on the PPU problem, it has demonstrated great ability for testing the theory behind any idea, in this thread the idea forwarded has been picked apart thoroughly.
Incorrect, it has never been stated that PPU are MEANT to have great defences.
KK introduced them as support chars. That does not infer high self defences. It means that they assist others.
A substantial nerf (or even removal) of the PPU's defences would go a long way to remove their importance.
The main problem with this however is when you get more than one PPU supporting, and the situation then becomes no different from the one we have now.
Unless you remove foreign casting on those with high PPU.
Slight edit to my last post, though this place may not be the best place to find agreement on the PPU problem, it has demonstrated great ability for testing the theory behind any idea, in this thread the idea forwarded has been picked apart thoroughly.
If they did that no one would play a PPU unless the PPU could also attack people if the PPU had shit defence it would be a sitting duck. "All kill the PPU" :)
Update: Well, we thought the whole thing over, and talked to numerous people from the GM Team and the community about this. The result is: We will NOT implement this idea. It will not do what we intend it would do. Anyone can carry around a Piercing- and an Energy-Weapon due to the Tangent Epic Weapons which won't drop. That means we would basically remove Shelter and Deflector from the game, and that is not what we intend to do. We will post again when the next idea is thought through enough to be presented to you. I want to thank you all for your numerous replies :)
Thank god :p
Should this be closed now? Maybe left on a sticky for a bit to let people know it's been rethought?
Niddy oh niddy?
Unstuck but left open in case anyone wishes to finish any strands of discussion. I guess it's open season on PPU suggestion threads for a while. ;)
N
Jesterthegreat
26-02-05, 20:16
S/D ok it makes resists a lot better, but cmon, it's not like you do half the dammage afterwards.
point is it unbalances.
solo...
APU is good offence, insta aim and no LoS for main PvP spells.
PPU is good defence, can try to wear people down with SC's and melee if they want :p
PE is medium, slightly better def with lowtech, slightly better offence with hightech
Spy is like a PE, but caps stuff easier, can be quicker and has a smaller hitbox... but cant match resists and health at the same time (and has no DB)
Tanks are a mobile turret as ever.
solo i feel the classes are fairly balanced.
however... add a ppu to the equasion and its not at all. tanks gain loads of defence, PEs gain very little. all of a sudden instead of tank vs PE fights being based on player skill... tanks now have better offence and defence than the PPU buffed PE.
while an SD in itself isnt that bad, its when classes such as PEs / spies depend on their self casts to match the resists of other classes... then a PPU b0rks the whole thing.
resticky thread ? or has a solution been selected ?
Dribble Joy
26-02-05, 21:09
resticky thread ? or has a solution been selected ?
Unstuck but left open in case anyone wishes to finish any strands of discussion. I guess it's open season on PPU suggestion threads for a while. ;)
N
Reading helps.
----
S/D foreign cast unbalances the combat classes. Mathematical FACT.
The solution in the past has been to remove foreign casting of shields.
That would sort the class balance, but the effects that PPUs still retain (heals), makes them still a total necessity.
My previous, most supported 'solution' to PPUs was to remove foreign cast AND remove blessed/holy heals.
PPUs would still be able to rez, DB, use lvl 3 buffs and heal, but I wonder if it would be too much, and if anyone would play a PPU anymore.
I'm currently working on an idea that might work, but I am not sure exactly how it would effect the overall effectiveness of each class and if it's even doable mechanics wise.
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