View Full Version : Should PPU's spells be reworked
Ok so we have the following to discuss....
Often we are out as a team (2/3/4 spies) and we always PK till the PPU's come out, then we are normally outt numbered and they have a PPU, and the balance is really shifted.
This will be the same at op wars , a team of 6 no ppu will loose to a Tank/APU with ppu.
So I am looking at how we can enjoy PvP and still have a viable PvM options of DOY Tunnels and MC5 .......
One idea comes to mind is to re-work the sanctums, so they are only player based...IE Mobs dont pick up the sanctu, then make all other PPU spells cast only. So a PPu can cast shelter and deflector on himself, and throw a sanctum for the group. He is not buffed by the sanctum and so needs to look after self all the time. Increase the sanctum raduis a little, and make a 10 second countdown if you are out of that radius.
I have a almost capped (Int 95) PPu, which I only use for mob hunting... I have yet to do anything else with him, so I know the way it works.....
I think a PPU's role should change, but how is what we need to discuss
Im not gonna bother saying why this is a bad idea. Kinda obvious.
Am I the only one getting quite annoyed by the "Oh, I have a bright new idea! Let's make the PPU-spells self-cast only! This way we'll most definetly balance PvP!"-threads? :rolleyes:
You only use your ppu to hunt firemobs, your an idiot
So what we saying, PPU's are fine as they are ?
Personally I get frustrated when everyone cant move without a PPU stuck to the ass, but thats me cause I don't have one stuck to mine.....
But if everyone feels that PPU's are fine the way they are then cool.
I have found that a PPU dies very quickly to 2 raptor dronnes (man thats a funny sight).
I left the thread open to other ideas, but if no one has any then thats cool too
You only use your ppu to hunt firemobs, your an idiot
For 3 months its taken you to create 2 posts, this being one of them..... and still nothing constructive
PPU spells already got a re-work at the start of nc2.
somehow the Shelter/Deflector is weaker than in nc1.
the selcast only on all spells but sanctum and group is a very good idea.
maybe just tone down forein cast of those spells to minimal usage, iee. holy shelter works like shelter, holy heal like normal heal ... on other PPL.
the selcast only on all spells but sanctum and group is a very good idea.
maybe just tone down forein cast of those spells to minimal usage, iee. holy shelter works like shelter, holy heal like normal heal ... on other PPL.
A normal heal on an apu in an Op war..
:( or for any other class infact!!
Dribble Joy
21-02-05, 12:54
Sanctums need to be removed or made so they don't stack, especially the heals.
The self cast ideas (at least the self cast shields one) is about class balance with PPUs, not about the direct affect that PPUs have overall.
Oh and remove holy and blessed heals, would solve so many problems.
I really cant understand why people complain so much about that PPUs do such huge difference. Of coz they do and by all right. They are HEALERS/BUFFERS!!! Thats the whole meaning to them. Changing PPUs require a shitloads more work than a not so well thought idea like this. There simply aint no simple solution that works.
Ok, you want heals to be less powerful, but then you need to balance mobs. Which mobs? Only highlvl mobs? How much? You think KK is able to find the right balance? :rolleyes:
You want to remove parashock. Sure, but then you need to lower the runspeed cap due to KK having such a bad netcode that it cant keep up with the really fast runners.
All this points to one thing. Balancing PPUs requre alot more work and time than even our current theme-"week". Untill then, leave them alone. And stop posting stupid ideas like this. Or like the even more stupid one about making PPUs not able to shelter/heal others in a warzone....
Oh and remove holy and blessed heals, would solve so many problems.
Explain please. :confused:
Orion']I really cant understand why people complain so much about that PPUs do such huge difference. Of coz they do and by all right. They are HEALERS/BUFFERS!!! Thats the whole meaning to them. Changing PPUs require a shitloads more work than a not so well thought idea like this. There simply aint no simple solution that works.
Ok, you want heals to be less powerful, but then you need to balance mobs. Which mobs? Only highlvl mobs? How much? You think KK is able to find the right balance? :rolleyes:
You want to remove parashock. Sure, but then you need to lower the runspeed cap due to KK having such a bad netcode that it cant keep up with the really fast runners.
All this points to one thing. Balancing PPUs requre alot more work and time than even our current theme-"week". Untill then, leave them alone. And stop posting stupid ideas like this. Or like the even more stupid one about making PPUs not able to shelter/heal others in a warzone....
I could not help but notice you admit there is a potential problem, but once again the forums would raqther shout out 'Here is a problem' lets not try and work on some kind of solution....
Idea ma not be the best, but hey let be honest its an idea, what have you contrubute except for negative comments.
Here is a challenge, why no try and think out side of the box, and try and add something to the post, instead of taking away (Or just no post, if you cant add anything to it)
why dont we start about melee tanks instead?
capped melee tanks with a bit in HC (around 50 base) can take a Beast drug and fully cap a storm laser/antivehicle launcher tl90
how fucked up is that?
from now on, we talk about that. no more 'PPUs are overpowered and i died by someone lvl 20 with a PPU up his ass so now i come here and whine because this surely happens to anyone without skill'
go for melees! O_o
Orion']I really cant understand why people complain so much about that PPUs do such huge difference. Of coz they do and by all right. They are HEALERS/BUFFERS!!! ...
because there is something wrong when you have higher chances when u have a PPU on your side.
mobs need change ? why ? there is no mob ingame that you cant do when u dont have a PPU. yes it helps when you have a holy heal in the swamps. but its even possible without it. all you need is antipoison.
the mighty spells need to be ingame on selfcast because that enables em to draw fire on them selfs while others kill ppl. that should be the role of a PPU. take loads of damage and use group spells on others.
because there is something wrong when you have higher chances when u have a PPU on your side.
mobs need change ? why ? there is no mob ingame that you cant do when u dont have a PPU. yes it helps when you have a holy heal in the swamps. but its even possible without it. all you need is antipoison.
the mighty spells need to be ingame on selfcast because that enables em to draw fire on them selfs while others kill ppl. that should be the role of a PPU. take loads of damage and use group spells on others.
Why do you mention the tiny swamp cave mobs that hardly do ANY damage when compared to the really hard ones? Ever been in Doy Tunnels lvl 3 for example? Even a capped ppu with all buffs and heal running can die down there due to the damage the mobs do. Without holy buffs even tanks die in 2-3 hits. Actually, the most damaging ones can actually kill tanks WITH holy buffs in 4 hits or something.
Your second remark showed you only PvM. Draw Fire... Why would anyone in their right mind attack a holy buffed ppu if the damagedealers couldnt be holy buffed? And group buffs currently hit everyone around you, even enemies. Even if you made them tag only teammates, what about people outside your team that you might meet somewhere and want to help out? Then you need to invite that guy to the team. And without the possibility to remove them from the team as it is now..
As I said. There just aint no simple solution to this. Having a game thats majorly pvp based but with also pvm makes balancing a really hard art.
EDIT: Why the hell is there anything wrong with having bigger chances with a PPU on your side? OF COURSE should you have higher chances with a buffer/healer on your side. Ever thought about that this is actually a teambased game? And as in all teambased games, having characters from different classes is the best. Well, except PEs since they dont have any real use in an OP war currently. Kinda sad.
because there is something wrong when you have higher chances when u have a PPU on your side.
Huh? Is there something wrong then with bringing a team of spies/tanks/apus? They all add to your chances. :wtf:
the mighty spells need to be ingame on selfcast because that enables em to draw fire on them selfs while others kill ppl. that should be the role of a PPU. take loads of damage and use group spells on others.
No, the role of the ppu should be a healer, standing behind his team healing and buffing them...
Huh? Is there something wrong then with bringing a team of spies/tanks/apus? They all add to your chances. :wtf:
a PPU just doesn't add to your chances, it makes you nigh on invincible against all but the hardest areas in the game
No, the role of the ppu should be a healer, standing behind his team healing and buffing them...
My problem with this topic is that the entire high level game is too dependant on PPUs, you can't go anywhere popular in the world or do anything without them.
enigma_b17
21-02-05, 13:59
only change that needs to happen is get rid of parashock or nerf it more, and get rid of it on copbots. PPU's are fine otherwise.
I could not help but notice you admit there is a potential problem, but once again the forums would raqther shout out 'Here is a problem' lets not try and work on some kind of solution....
Idea ma not be the best, but hey let be honest its an idea, what have you contrubute except for negative comments.
Here is a challenge, why no try and think out side of the box, and try and add something to the post, instead of taking away (Or just no post, if you cant add anything to it)
I admit that there is a problem. My own opinion is that the main part of the problem aint the holy buffs, but the holy heal. Same goes for blessed heal. They should both be toned down a little bit. But then you get the problems with the really highlvl mobs in the game since they do shitloads of damage. (No MsDong, Im NOT talking about swampcave mobs.. :rolleyes: )
And you cant just lower the foreign cast effectiveness since that wouldnt affect blessed hybrids at all. Only reason they do so well is the blessed heal.
I agree that a "bad" idea is better than no idea. What have I contributed? Well, showing that there is no simple solution. I mean, we cant just change one single thing and expect everything to be good then. To solve this "problem" it needs some really serious thinking and it will also require balancing of other things in return. If you just lower the effectiveness of holy buffs then you need to balance some weapons so the PPUs doesnt get wasted by any APU that happen to show up. Having a game where you have to consider both pvp and pvm makes balancing extremely hard.qqq
enigma_b17
21-02-05, 14:03
lol....are people forgetting that ppus have no sizable offence what so ever????
PPU's are able to take the damage they can take due to that fact. Removing or even nerfing holy heal would be silly as it would mean instant death for a class which is incapable of offensively attacking. If ppus were able to actually cause damage then yea nerf it all u want, but as long as ppus remain a completely defensive class no :P
Original monk
21-02-05, 14:10
why dont we start about melee tanks instead?
capped melee tanks with a bit in HC (around 50 base) can take a Beast drug and fully cap a storm laser/antivehicle launcher tl90
how fucked up is that?
from now on, we talk about that. no more 'PPUs are overpowered and i died by someone lvl 20 with a PPU up his ass so now i come here and whine because this surely happens to anyone without skill'
go for melees! O_o
i have no prob capping mellee and heavy (with 1 drug), you yust gimp youre resists and speed ...
thing is no-one gets annoyed by em cause ya almost never see tankhybrids lol
but i get youre point, start nerfing someone else instead of always the same class: monks ...
and melleetanks are pretty strong yeah :)
Enigma, PPUs can do some damage though if setup that way. Thats got nothing to do with this topic though.
Parashock is a bitch, but a damn fast runner is just the same since the netcode cant keep up. Fix that and then remove or lower parashock as you said. Copbots.. Well, their parashock is easily the worst in the game. Either lower or remove it entirely. But one more thing. Make copbots actually do DAMAGE which they hardly do today.
Of coz should PPU be required to go to the hardest parts of the game!!! Omg! If not, why would we even have the class in the game?? PPUs are the main buffers/healers in the game and of coz should they be required for all highlvl things. Thats what they are made for.
One fact remains though. The PPUs are more balanced now than ever. They might make abit too much of an impact in the outcome of a fight but the solution is simple. Bring one of your own.
Until we have found the solution of all solutions, dont touch our PPUs.
enigma_b17
21-02-05, 15:05
Orion']Enigma, PPUs can do some damage though if setup that way. Thats got nothing to do with this topic though.
Parashock is a bitch, but a damn fast runner is just the same since the netcode cant keep up. Fix that and then remove or lower parashock as you said. Copbots.. Well, their parashock is easily the worst in the game. Either lower or remove it entirely. But one more thing. Make copbots actually do DAMAGE which they hardly do today.
Of coz should PPU be required to go to the hardest parts of the game!!! Omg! If not, why would we even have the class in the game?? PPUs are the main buffers/healers in the game and of coz should they be required for all highlvl things. Thats what they are made for.
One fact remains though. The PPUs are more balanced now than ever. They might make abit too much of an impact in the outcome of a fight but the solution is simple. Bring one of your own.
Until we have found the solution of all solutions, dont touch our PPUs.
ppus cannot have any sort of meaningful damage dealing skill. If they do theyr not really ppus :P. Sure u can spec to use a pistol or a melee weapon or what not, but pretty much any1 can outheal the damage ud do.
Ok ill post twenty messages a day about subjects that are irrelevant to me just say i have a nice number under my name. When i do that though are you just gonna attack my font colour????
Ok ill post twenty messages a day about subjects that are irrelevant to me just say i have a nice number under my name. When i do that though are you just gonna attack my font colour????
Must be a good post, as it has you posting more than any other subject, How is that 50% of all your posts are about PPU's ....
Plus I dont like white as a font color.....
Back to subject,
PPUs can do tons of damage, wih a dmaga boosts, and a weapon ... not that that counts for anything as the class being attacked just runs away...
I remeber at an op war once, everyone dead except for a PPU, and the PPU ran around the op with about 7 chars on his tail all taking shots. No APU's or for what ever reason, APUS did not have debuff.... But for 7 chars not to be able to kill 1 char, was really concerning.
You bet the impression that instead of making the adjustments early on KK have just made harder mobs, first 120 MC5, then 127/127 mobs .... These are due to PPU's being able to withstand damage.
PPU's offering GOD Like mode to other chars is a problem. An APYU has got an offense or attack and yet is walking with semi God Mode,
If I recall not once was it mentioned to reduce the PPU's ability on self, he can double his own buffs, thats cool, hey make him have GOD Mode, he cant hurt anyone, not really, but dont let him extend his GOD mode to others....
The problem is not that a team with a healer/shielder will kill a team without one every time. In which game is that not true? Your problem is not that the other team has a healer, it's that you don't.
The solution to that problem is not to nerf PPUs, but to make it one holy heck of a lot easier for PPUs to level, so there are more PPUs!
My suggestion there is to make the Soul Cluster spell completely incapable of attacking player characters, period -- then reduce the mana cost so it can be "aimed" more efficiently, and roughly quintuple the rate of fire. Then it won't be impossible for PPUs to solo PvE, and voila, no more PPU shortage.
Right now, when anybody asks on the help channel "how do I level a PPU?" the answer they get from 9 out of 10 people is, "cap an APU and then LOM." That should tell you what your problem is, right there.
Orion']Why do you mention the tiny swamp cave mobs that hardly do ANY damage when compared to the really hard ones? Ever been in Doy Tunnels lvl 3 for example?...
you mean its as hard as dragons in other games ? NC Mobs are far to easy.
Orion']
Your second remark showed you only PvM. Draw Fire... Why would anyone in their right mind attack a holy buffed ppu if the damagedealers couldnt be holy buffed?..
they can be buffed. any holy €:group heal is better them a tank heal. to kill a ppu is to kill the rezzsource, the freezsource the DBSource. the PPU is still a supporter. for mobs there are distract mind and that other spell i forget because nobody use.
...
EDIT: Why the hell is there anything wrong with having bigger chances with a PPU on your side?
because anyone can be PPU its not that it is any special. its not that it get randomly chosen if you are agressive or passive.
its just my opinion.
Dribble Joy
21-02-05, 20:20
Why the hell is there anything wrong with having bigger chances with a PPU on your side?
A ppu should be of equal value to a team as another combat char.
A team (allready composed of several different char types) faced with a selection of a PPU or PE/spy/tank/apu, should benefit equally either way it decides.
The effects PPUs have over teams is far too high, they are a necessity, not an option.
they can be buffed. any holy €:group heal is better them a tank heal. to kill a ppu is to kill the rezzsource, the freezsource the DBSource. the PPU is still a supporter. for mobs there are distract mind and that other spell i forget because nobody use.
Anyone without shields will go down fast heal or not. There'd be no point in a attacking a ppu till last if s/d was made self cast only.
The thing I don't like about these "fixes" is alot of them lead to, whoever brings the most numbers will win. Right now, say a 5 person team with a ppu or 2 can take on and win against a 10 person team with 3-4 ppus or whatever. Without shields on your attackers that 5 person team won't have a chance.
The problem is not that a team with a healer/shielder will kill a team without one every time. In which game is that not true? Your problem is not that the other team has a healer, it's that you don't.
The solution to that problem is not to nerf PPUs, but to make it one holy heck of a lot easier for PPUs to level, so there are more PPUs!
My suggestion there is to make the Soul Cluster spell completely incapable of attacking player characters, period -- then reduce the mana cost so it can be "aimed" more efficiently, and roughly quintuple the rate of fire. Then it won't be impossible for PPUs to solo PvE, and voila, no more PPU shortage.
Right now, when anybody asks on the help channel "how do I level a PPU?" the answer they get from 9 out of 10 people is, "cap an APU and then LOM." That should tell you what your problem is, right there.
And Brag nails it again. Perfect.
enigma_b17
22-02-05, 11:46
The problem is not that a team with a healer/shielder will kill a team without one every time. In which game is that not true? Your problem is not that the other team has a healer, it's that you don't.
The solution to that problem is not to nerf PPUs, but to make it one holy heck of a lot easier for PPUs to level, so there are more PPUs!
My suggestion there is to make the Soul Cluster spell completely incapable of attacking player characters, period -- then reduce the mana cost so it can be "aimed" more efficiently, and roughly quintuple the rate of fire. Then it won't be impossible for PPUs to solo PvE, and voila, no more PPU shortage.
Right now, when anybody asks on the help channel "how do I level a PPU?" the answer they get from 9 out of 10 people is, "cap an APU and then LOM." That should tell you what your problem is, right there.
ud ave to do alot more then increase its rof. It would need to do more damage :P, since its not pvp
you mean its as hard as dragons in other games ? NC Mobs are far to easy.
Depends what game you compare with. If you compare to dragons in Ultima Online then the mobs in NC are extremely much harder. Thats not the point though. The point is that the hardest mobs are extremely hard and should definitely require a PPU. Anyone going to a hard place in any game without a healer would be kinda stupid.
they can be buffed. any holy €:group heal is better them a tank heal. to kill a ppu is to kill the rezzsource, the freezsource the DBSource. the PPU is still a supporter. for mobs there are distract mind and that other spell i forget because nobody use.
Its still alot easier to just waste the attackers and leave the ppu for last in these suggestions.
because anyone can be PPU its not that it is any special. its not that it get randomly chosen if you are agressive or passive.
its just my opinion.
Anyone can be a PPU, yes. But can anyone be a good PPU? Hell no! On Terra I'd say that there are perhaps 5 really good PPUs. Most are either crap or mediumgood (like me). The only ones that can make a team more or less immortal are the really good ones like Descent or Sultana (naming I know, but I just said they were very good, nothing else). Sure, a mediumgood one makes a big difference too, but should we really balance the game after the few extremely good ones? If so, we'd end up even nerfing PEs coz while most PEs suck really bad nowadays there are a few that really can kick ASS.
Loads of people cry that we should make PPUs less important or that they want to have more fights without PPUs. But do they really? If so, less people would play PPUs and then it would be even harder to get a PPU for when you really need them. Balancing a game, specially a pvp one, is just soooo hard.
Anyone without shields will go down fast heal or not. ...
group shelter/deflector ? sanctums ?its not that i want to remove the total ability to shelter someone but you cant have all the pro when you want no neg.
it would be ok to raise the effect of groupshelter/sanctums a "little" to have good shielding of ppl but thy have to be near the PPU and enemys get shielded too.
group shelter/deflector ? sanctums ?its not that i want to remove the total ability to shelter someone but you cant have all the pro when you want no neg.
it would be ok to raise the effect of groupshelter/sanctums a "little" to have good shielding of ppl but thy have to be near the PPU and enemys get shielded too.
That's the thing, I'm not sure anyone would be in favour of shielding their enemies, even if it is a risk you have to take when getting shields to your teamates. Group spells seem a decent alternative, though I don't that's much of a reason to make a normal s/d selfcast yet a group one not. With the group spells all you have to do is sit next to your teamate and cast...
If shelter sanctums were the only way to buff your teamates, I'd say the pvp would then lean towards two groups of people spamming hl across a 50 metre space or something.
<-- said it in the other thread, remove para before you start messing with the other spells :)
group shelter/deflector ? sanctums ?its not that i want to remove the total ability to shelter someone but you cant have all the pro when you want no neg.
it would be ok to raise the effect of groupshelter/sanctums a "little" to have good shielding of ppl but thy have to be near the PPU and enemys get shielded too.
Shielding enemies too? Can you spell to "Death of PvP"?
With the group spells all you have to do is sit next to your teamate and cast...
Exactly, and who would wanna play PPU then since it would be extremely boring.
so this is a glue a PPU on your back because else i cant PvP thread ?
i mean ever see a difference in PvP with rifles and pistols and cannons? there isnt one because nobody fightin on range.
one reason for that is PPUcan run on the frontlie and put individual shelter on everyone even if there are lots of enemys around.
Jesterthegreat
22-02-05, 13:44
PPU's should be used in PvP.
however they shouldnt be so much more important than any other class.
a well balanced team should be good... not a half APU half PPU one...
The only class I can see suffering from buffs being made self cast only is the APU every other class can look after them selfs. I think that they should totaly rework the monks by removing PPU and APU from the PSI skills, then replacing it with just PSI. Make every monk a hybrid with new spells new armour "which must look sexy" remove the strongest parra shocks balance them.
I think that they should have the defence of a PE but there damage should be better, or heres another idea. How about a new ammo type for rifle and pistol users, it would be the PSI monks worst nightmare tehehe :) anti PSI ammo. Ammo that removes mana from PSI pool lets see that fukin PPU parra shock me now !!
I hate PPU's and monks in general but I would not hate them so much if KK sorted them out, its so clear they are not balanced
[TgR]KILLER
22-02-05, 14:49
cba to read all this but then ppu's need a 5000 slot quickbelt and i need 10 more str levels so i can actually get transport to carry all the spells.. i already carry an assload of spells if i have to carry a shitload of sanctums / group buffs to buff other people.. well no thanks.
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