View Full Version : Give APUs LoS
Yeah, a rant.
Please for gods sake give APUs line of sight. They can keep their stupid point and click aiming and the insane damage, just fix this one for now. I don`t even know how often i got hit by an apu several times after i already ran around several corners, out of sight and haven`t even got him in my fucking local list anymore.
With this goddamn laggy buggy netcode, this just can`t go on. At least give us a statement about it KK. Any chance to get this changed or at least tweaked? Or do we have to live with it like all the other stupid imbalancing bugs? Just so i know, i`ll go and cap my APU then. o_O
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Enough ranting, off to bed now.
Jesterthegreat
08-02-05, 03:08
yes.
have said this for 3 years... still say it now.
monks can do the most damage.
monks can take the least damage.
monks have (near) insta aim.
monks have all the usefull tools like HAB as well as the whole PPU class and the worst para.
seriously unbalanced and some kind of aim recticle would be a hell of a start
Clive tombstone
08-02-05, 03:12
Wow, being gone for so long, and Monks still Rule? hehe God its good to be back (I only play PE's, but Im in a car, so I just run away^^) :p
True though, If monks get Instant aiming, cant a few guns have it?^^
(then every APU bursts in)
NOOO!!!!
Dribble Joy
08-02-05, 04:07
Should have been there since the begining.
I don't care if they don't have LoS, but if they don't I want a non-LoS option for my weapons of choice. Copbot rifle was perfect for this, but noooo - KK took it away. :-/
Clive tombstone
08-02-05, 05:25
hehe, This game isnt a FPS for anyone but APu's (and gms maybe :D ) I guess thats what I liked about face of mankinds beta. It had the whole thing right on mark for combat, but sadly, it was buggy as crap, and had no vehicles :p
I mean, No-los for guns would have been great, I still could be!, I mean, maybe KK could try it out on anouther test server for a while, and see how it would handel, and MAYBE with favorable reviews, It could be carried over into retail with an expansion pack? maybe tokyo two?
Man that would be cool
(mob of APU's with Brooms, Torches and cricket bats break into Clive's house)
Apu 1- He's said to much!
Clive-Ahh crap :p
PEace out
*Thwack*
Asurmen Spec Op
08-02-05, 06:16
Yeah, a rant.
Please for gods sake give APUs line of sight. They can keep their stupid point and click aiming and the insane damage, just fix this one for now. I don`t even know how often i got hit by an apu several times after i already ran around several corners, out of sight and haven`t even got him in my fucking local list anymore.
With this goddamn laggy buggy netcode, this just can`t go on. At least give us a statement about it KK. Any chance to get this changed or at least tweaked? Or do we have to live with it like all the other stupid imbalancing bugs? Just so i know, i`ll go and cap my APU then. o_O
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Enough ranting, off to bed now. true enough mr kapow, true enough
:) Love my APU played him for over two years.. Lived through all the bad things, and APU's arnt immortal.. yet you complain when you get jumped by an apu/ppu team..
Seems it is more popular to be jumped by tank/ppu nowdays
Also won't fix it every time with that line of sight
Even if you think you are behind a corner the game
itself is not 100% synced and the apu still see you as you are not
=Death
:) Love my APU played him for over two years.. Lived through all the bad things, and APU's arnt immortal.. yet you complain when you get jumped by an apu/ppu team..I`m not at all complaining about PPUs here. I didn`t even mention PPUs.
I`m just pissed getting killed when it simply shouldn`t happen. On my screen, i ran away round some corner and am safely healing up already. On the APUs screen im still in sight, running against a wall thanks to the stupid netcode. While now every other weapon would not do damage because actually i`m out of sight, the HL gives a shit and kills me. Thats my fucking point.
To actually mention PPUs aswell, don`t we all love it when we see a PPU, turn round, run away and ages later we get struck be the evil parashock out of nowhere? I hate that. :lol:
And whats "all the bad things" happened to APUs? You had poison overpowered, then nerfed. Thats the only big thing i can remember. o_O
I`m not at all complaining about PPUs here. I didn`t even mention PPUs.
I`m just pissed getting killed when it simply shouldn`t happen. On my screen, i ran away round some corner and am safely healing up already. On the APUs screen im still in sight, running against a wall thanks to the stupid netcode. While now every other weapon would not do damage because actually i`m out of sight, the HL gives a shit and kills me. Thats my fucking point.
To actually mention PPUs aswell, don`t we all love it when we see a PPU, turn round, run away and ages later we get struck be the evil parashock out of nowhere? I hate that. :lol:
And whats "all the bad things" happened to APUs? You had poison overpowered, then nerfed. Thats the only big thing i can remember. o_O
Also our range was decimated so when we see DOY Bombers or drones way up high.. run! as for bad netcode.. lets all run around trees and corners
:rolleyes:
Tidus_Origin
08-02-05, 12:15
I agree. GIVE MONKS LINE OF SIGHT!! All the other classes (except melee) have it, why shouldn't they?
There's been many occasions where I've ran behind some cover to attempt to evade an APU's HL, giving the monk in question about half a second of aiming time at best. And even doing this, they still hit.
For any other weapon type (rifles, pistols, heavycombat), this would mean we would miss most of the time. For monks, it doesn't matter. As long as they saw our name when they clicked fire, their chance to hit is ALWAYS 100%.
Even zoning doesn't allow us to evade the attack, because of the 1 second where we're still visible on the side we zoned from.
Right now, being a monk is like having an aimbot as standard. And that's NOT a good thing. I mean, we have to aim....
or atleast [if it's easier] make some kind of protection that they can't stack 15 seconds worth of bashing a runner with ther modules with only 3 second motion on them.
I agree. GIVE MONKS LINE OF SIGHT!! All the other classes (except melee) have it, why shouldn't they?
There's been many occasions where I've ran behind some cover to attempt to evade an APU's HL, giving the monk in question about half a second of aiming time at best. And even doing this, they still hit.
For any other weapon type (rifles, pistols, heavycombat), this would mean we would miss most of the time. For monks, it doesn't matter. As long as they saw our name when they clicked fire, their chance to hit is ALWAYS 100%.
Even zoning doesn't allow us to evade the attack, because of the 1 second where we're still visible on the side we zoned from.
Right now, being a monk is like having an aimbot as standard. And that's NOT a good thing. I mean, we have to aim....
lol, if only it was as simple as you make it out ;)
give apus los or take out the los on the other classes.
Apu's don't need line of sight, they just need the damage on the HL and FA nerfed to hell... I mean, no-one can stand up against a capped HL, except a fully buffed ppu. It's not like line of sight would change much, the game is so buggy I've been shot with CS:s behind corners, and even when there's no-one around... LoS won't solve a goddamn thing, a weapon that does 300-500 dmg per hit to a wb 105 times per minute and with infinite ammo, that needs serious nerfing imo...
Freaky Fryd
08-02-05, 12:31
I vote this as the next theme week...after Soullight week, of course...
;)
I mean, no-one can stand up against a capped HL, except a fully buffed ppu. one on one with no PPU's involved i think Tank, PE, Spy could put up a fight no problem. I've killed APU's with my PE no problem when they are PPU'less.
It just doesn't happen often that you'd find an APU all alone :-\
Original monk
08-02-05, 12:39
Sup with all the monknerfthreads lately ?
Why don't you make a poll and see how the vote goes?
-=Dredduk=-
08-02-05, 13:04
Sup with all the monknerfthreads lately ?
I think its because now in nc2 its Not often at all that you see a apu without ppu..
In neocron 1 it was not so bad.
Bugs Gunny
08-02-05, 13:08
Sup with all the monknerfthreads lately ?
If KK wants to keep monks ingame i DEMAND castles and horses to be put in too :-)
Monks should never have been put into neocron, but hey, it was probably a marketing decision to attract that wizard crowd.
It was never confirmed, but wasn't the netcode update rate nerfed in Neocron 2 to try and reduce lag, resulting in more 'straight line' character movements? This causes people to run into walls before appearing 10 metres away. Could be part of your problem.
But anyway, would like to see LOS/Reticules for monks, would take more skill to use them then, needing a lock on to hit. Would make Op wars fairer for PE's/Spies/Tanks in heavy lag too.
Chance of this making it in game? 2%. These threads just allow us to let off virtual steam.
Yeah, i'll start recruitment to my monk only clan as soon as i'll lvl high enough. THAT will be some steam venting...
one on one with no PPU's involved i think Tank, PE, Spy could put up a fight no problem. I've killed APU's with my PE no problem when they are PPU'less.
It just doesn't happen often that you'd find an APU all alone :-\
Well i tried to give my spy more fire resist but still the FA just eats spy's alive. So if you really want a chance against solo APU you have to be tank or PE.
But yeah that monks are owerpowered can you see in op wars. The side with most APU/PPU teams will win. Spy's are only good for hacknet and hacking. As i always say this is not neocron anymore its monk-a-cron. ;)
Why don't you make a poll and see how the vote goes?
Uhm, i tried but i couldnt figure out how. Maybe ill get it done next time. :)
@Ascention
Funny you`re the only one against it, but arent you playing an APU all the time?
Well i tried to give my spy more fire resist but still the FA just eats spy's alive. So if you really want a chance against solo APU you have to be tank or PE.
But yeah that monks are owerpowered can you see in op wars. The side with most APU/PPU teams will win. Spy's are only good for hacknet and hacking. As i always say this is not neocron anymore its monk-a-cron. ;)
Really... That's hardly true at all, it's the side with the either the more ppu's or the better ppu's. Tanks are just as good and in some ways better attackers then APU's, they have better resists can be nearly unkillable with the right setup and ppu supporting him/her and do as much damage, the only thing they can't do is antibuff. Which really is only needed to kill ppu's, any db'ed attacker will go down if you hit them enough.
edit: failing that, the most people :rolleyes:
Logan_storm_03
08-02-05, 14:02
i completly agree, the amount of times i have been behind cover yet still get burned to death from a Fire Apoc or HL. When I play my APU i even some times feel alittle bad because how easy you can take some one out, just run at them, do a little dance but just keep you reticle on them and gently press down with your index finger and you have instant pwnage it seem pretty unfair. Just a simply change would balance it out quite abit. 5*****
Heavyporker
08-02-05, 14:07
Next person to equate PSI Monks with Wizards gets my fist up his ass.
Psi Monks are distinct, and psionics has a long and proud history in sci-fi and cyberpunk.
Also our range was decimated so when we see DOY Bombers or drones way up high.. run! as for bad netcode.. lets all run around trees and corners
:rolleyes:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahaaha
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yeah right, the rangedecrease wasn't a nerf in anyway, because I doubt that you should be able to nuke anything you could barely see.
Not to mention that the current range is more than enough.
My solution for the APU-problem would be...
REMOVE PPUs!
Giving the monks line of sight, would mean altering all the spells to be lances instead of beams. It simply doesn't make sense to have vertical beams require a line of sight. Half of the spells that are available to monks would have to be removed. Oh, and this would effect ppus quite badly, I mean, if you need line of sight for apu spells, it'd only be fair to need it for heals and such. And I don't wanna be the one trying to heal someone when you have to wait for a reticle to close...
Hmmm, whats the shooting-range of a Raptor or a PN compared to a HL ?
I think it`s about the same but i may be way off here ... so ... anyone know ?
Transformer
08-02-05, 14:32
imo leave it how it is. live with it. been like this forever and worse things out there. APU's are easily beatable if you arn't running away :rolleyes:
I've never been able to damage an APU without them hitting my drone (raptor, PN), so it's pretty much simillar afaik.
Hmmm, whats the shooting-range of a Raptor or a PN compared to a HL ?
I think it`s about the same but i may be way off here ... so ... anyone know ?
is a raptor as strong as a hl ?
*makin a droner*
sanityislost
08-02-05, 14:51
one on one with no PPU's involved i think Tank, PE, Spy could put up a fight no problem. I've killed APU's with my PE no problem when they are PPU'less.
It just doesn't happen often that you'd find an APU all alone :-\
I hardly ever have a ppu when im raiding DoY (mostly do it solo) :p
dont really think its the apu's who need the nerf, its the ppu's (for pvp, pvm
they are fine).
SiL ..:..
Bugs Gunny
08-02-05, 15:05
I gotta agree here.
I think all classes are ballanced now, except for ppu's.
Remove the ppu's from the scene, and prevent people from genrepping to the UG after death and you'll see ballanced op wars too. (won't last too long, but they'll be ballanced).
Dribble Joy
08-02-05, 15:13
Another issue with this is problem is hunting/PvM.
A monk can select the tiniest part of a mob from behind cover and fire upon it, where another class or lance type weapon would hit the ground or cover the monk is hiding behind.
This can often be done from a point where the mob being attacked is unable to attack or move to attack the player, and that is technically an exploit.
Regarding PvP, I think that all APU spells should be lance/bolt/ball type weapons.
If we try to get away from saying that psi = magic, it makes more sense when the monk him/herself is casting the spell rather than calling down some other higher power.
Aside from the RP 'excuse', non LoS weapons in PvP are in a way unbalanced.
Like with PvM, a monk can target another player and hit him simply by highlighting their hit box, however small a part they can see. Given APU weapons have a cast time, the monk can also fire and then move back into cover before it fires, safe in the knowledge that the spell will hit.
As the other classes do not have the same advantages with their weapon systems, it only makes sense that LoS should be given to monks, simply as an act of balancing.
Tidus_Origin
08-02-05, 15:46
lol, if only it was as simple as you make it out ;)
Meh, we can dream, though. :)
Ozambabbaz
08-02-05, 16:52
Yes, monks need LoS and a closing reticle akin to conventional weapon reticles.
Then, keeping PPU monks out of the equation, classes would be balanced. APUs would still have no runspeed decrease with their modules out, do insane damage and the best ammo system in the game.
Giving the monks line of sight, would mean altering all the spells to be lances instead of beams. It simply doesn't make sense to have vertical beams require a line of sight. Half of the spells that are available to monks would have to be removed. Oh, and this would effect ppus quite badly, I mean, if you need line of sight for apu spells, it'd only be fair to need it for heals and such. And I don't wanna be the one trying to heal someone when you have to wait for a reticle to close...I`m talking about APUs only. And i did not mention a reticle.
And i give a shit if giving a beam spell LoS would make sense or not, its to balance, not to make sense. :)
`m talking about APUs only. And i did not mention a reticle.
And i give a shit if giving a beam spell LoS would make sense or not, its to balance, not to make sense.
It'd have to be applied to the para at least, since it's just like any apu spell. And yes, I think it has to make at least a little sense...
Btw, there are weapons that still don't need a total LoS, like raygun rifles. I have killed quite a few people and mobs fireing with a raygun through small hills and through a bit of a wall. Don't know any other weapons that do it though, because I haven't tested it... :rolleyes:
Yeah, some guns shoot through floors, also vehicles i have used, e.g. a reveler can kill a grim through a hill, you stop seeing the damage but the health goes down still, i think it depends on the weapon and the terrain/objects between you and the target when it comes to things like that.
I know rayguns work, like mishkin said, but i know the Sniper rifles definately dont work like that, so it is dependant on the weapon..
If monks had LoS then we wouldn't have anyone to kill those 56k clipping whores
While checking the footage i recorded yesterday i found this tiny bit that shows the exact problem ...
Besides the fact that one of the shots takes away like 60% of my health
Laghit (3 MB) (http://www.elchtown.de/neocron/videos/laghit.wmv)
:rolleyes:
RogerRamjet
08-02-05, 19:28
Ive just made an APU, and im enjoying it (so shhhh Kid :p ) but i find it easier to use CS. And who ever said APU range is crap, well, the range on a capped HL is ridiculous.
Miss Naughty
08-02-05, 19:41
Some spells need line of sight, like chaos queen flame avalanche and poison beam, some don't. Maybe the higher end spells should be more like these?
I don't think a targeting reticule would help things. If the net code is tweaked so we don't get such huge discrepancies between clients it would be a lot better.
You notice these discrepancies with all classes. I got attacked by a slasher spy he other day and I recieved at least 3 bursts before he came around the corner and I could see him.
The grav lifts need fixing - they cause that problem where characters positions aren't updated properly.
Ive been playing since Dec 02 and ive always played an APU, LoS thats BS an APU may not have a reticule but why should they? LoS why? ITS GAY! I dont know about anyone whos played an APU but ffs if you miss your dead not to mention an APU is squishy as fuckin cheese. I say no to LoS and a reticule Ive never heard of any kind of game where a Magic type class that has that crap. And it doesnt even boil down to skill If i miss someone, just once, im dead.
This is kinda nuts but...
They could just make it so being apu means you sorta... 'reflect' all passive psi (passive psi has no effect on APU's). You want huge damage ? You got it, but you aint having a damn high speed healer and buffs.
That way or another, so long as the apu could stand at *most*, 2 ret-locked shots/bursts of any weapon of say TL90 or above, to ensure if they are fired at they die, they could justify thier immense power. (i.e. APU's would have to be damn careful in a firefight then, - can do immense damage, but mustn't get shot, and cannot have ppu powers even cast upon them. (or nerfed by APU level, ala hybrid nerf but for foreign cast))
And who ever said APU range is crap, well, the range on a capped HL is ridiculous.
Did you see it before it was nerfed ? Man I had fun on my APU then. HL > Sniper then was my bet :p
And yes, within 30 mins of taking up an APU after 10 months of pure PE work (no other class ever played) I proclaimed 'omg, this is easy' because to be honest, it did feel easy compared to what it'd taken my PE. It wasnt just pvp, the entire leveling mill is so much faster because of the horrific amount of damage you throw (killing wbts at /10 - /15 ish), being one of the classes with an AoE, ability to hack and drive without any offensive capability drop (excellent for money-making) I mean sure, a launcher cyclops could still make short work of me if i didnt fight it back, but the point is I do. hard.
While checking the footage i recorded yesterday i found this tiny bit that shows the exact problem ...Laghit (3 MB) (http://www.elchtown.de/neocron/videos/laghit.wmv)
Omg. I never realised how f**king awful the lag hit could get, thats just f**king stupid.
Freaky Fryd
08-02-05, 21:44
Well i tried to give my spy more fire resist but still the FA just eats spy's alive. So if you really want a chance against solo APU you have to be tank or PE.
Or have luck on your side...
:p
I dropped 2 APUs that were both fighting me at the same time in DOY the other day. Both were wearing PA (3, I think) and I survived with 3/4 of my health pool left...then a third APU came out and smited me before I could do anything...
:lol:
Ozambabbaz
08-02-05, 21:45
Ive been playing since Dec 02 and ive always played an APU, LoS thats BS an APU may not have a reticule but why should they? LoS why? ITS GAY!
Because everybody else except drones got reticle and that's an advantage in itself. Couple it up with weapon runspeed decrease and no LoS, it's ridiculous.
I dont know about anyone whos played an APU but ffs if you miss your dead not to mention an APU is squishy as fuckin cheese. Crahn Holy Spirit set... those armor resists look Uber to me...and why would you miss, you got no reticle lock-on req nor need LoS
I say no to LoS and a reticule Ive never heard of any kind of game where a Magic type class that has that crap. Balance is a keyword here
And it doesnt even boil down to skill If i miss someone, just once, im dead. These threads are not about APU vs APU, but Someone Without A Reticle Lock-on Req vs Someone With A Reticle Lock-On Req, remove skill from that and the difference is abnormal. This issue does not stand alone tho, it's even worse (i'd label it grotesque) since it's also APU = highest damage dealer, weapon runspeed decrease, LoS vs no LoS, locational damage on the HL and a PPU nullifies all APU class disadvantages completely.
I hope this is a sound discussion
i was playing on an apu the other day, and noticed that the range has actually been increased it seems.
i rarely play on an APU but the last time i played one before, you had to be pretty close to be in range, as of late i've been able to shoot people from miles away...
stealth tweaks i guess :lol:
*prays for the old skool hybrids to be implemented again* :angel:
Scaramanga
08-02-05, 21:57
Apu's overpowered?
Fuckit im making one.
Ozambabbaz
08-02-05, 21:59
Apu's overpowered?
Fuckit im making one.
:lol: That's been the trend since around NC1 patch 170 for monk issues, and also part of why this/these issues are not re-stated that much on the boards
Next person to equate PSI Monks with Wizards gets my fist up his ass.
Psi Monks are distinct, and psionics has a long and proud history in sci-fi and cyberpunk.
I was just thinking the same thing myself but I wasn't going to say anything :cool:
Heavyporker
08-02-05, 23:15
It's very easy for an APU to miss. And the spell fizzle is NOT something to laugh at. Spell fizzles happen on their own AND after EVERY FUCKING miss.
and, frankly, making APUs 'reflect' PPU -ased boni makes leveling hellish, not to mention it'd completely crumple the team dynamic. FYI - when there's no PPU around, I'm more than happy to take a resist 1/2 and a TL 3 heal off the others when leveling/hunting.
So, ozzamm... shaddup.
Ozambabbaz
08-02-05, 23:53
It's very easy for an APU to miss. And the spell fizzle is NOT something to laugh at. Spell fizzles happen on their own AND after EVERY FUCKING miss.
and, frankly, making APUs 'reflect' PPU -ased boni makes leveling hellish, not to mention it'd completely crumple the team dynamic. FYI - when there's no PPU around, I'm more than happy to take a resist 1/2 and a TL 3 heal off the others when leveling/hunting.
So, ozzamm... shaddup.
any other single shot weapon can also miss even with a fully closed reticle, so your point being?
On the PPU matter, i reckon that's for another thread, it's just important to keep in lieu when discussing class balance. As a PE i don't have anything that removes my class drawbacks, drugs sure help but not even close to equalling the aforementioned. Balancing mobs shouldn't be too hard either, should it Mr. Ideabestower?
Heavyporker
09-02-05, 06:17
Your gun doesn't jam up after each miss. You simply keep on firing.
Your gun doesn't jam up after each miss. You simply keep on firing.
Wow, looks like we finally found one small drawback APU spells got. o_O
Ozambabbaz
09-02-05, 12:50
there's a workaround for this, and also comparable to conventional weapons, if i miss a shot i have to close the reticle again since the lock-on time increases after a total miss
imo leave it how it is. live with it. been like this forever and worse things out there. APU's are easily beatable if you arn't running away :rolleyes:
That exactly is the problem! Don't rund away, just try to fight! And, a Spy could take 4 or 5 Apocs if he's skilled the right way.
That exactly is the problem! Don't rund away, just try to fight! And, a Spy could take 4 or 5 Apocs if he's skilled the right way.
Well I've come up agaisnt a fair few Spies that can take the damage and either stealth or do sufficent damage to me to stick around close and finish me!.
Well I've come up agaisnt a fair few Spies that can take the damage and either stealth or do sufficent damage to me to stick around close and finish me!.
;)
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Jesterthegreat
09-02-05, 14:22
even with a recticle... they would still do best damage.
i dont see a real reason not to do it...
That exactly is the problem! Don't rund away, just try to fight! And, a Spy could take 4 or 5 Apocs if he's skilled the right way.
If stands to your fire you just take out HL and give him energy or stack him with poisen. He can't be skilled for all ;)
All this talk we have to keep it this way so it is real. Why? The spy's weapon are not real so why should APU weapons be real? I work in the army so here some data:
7,62 mm ammonition penetrates a regular stone concrete wall up to 60 cm. If you build a cover with sand its 1 m it penetrates. A tree must be so big that you can't get your arms arround it.
In neocron a 7,62 mm gun can't get through a cardbox crate O_o .
If you think its bad for you to miss one aim. Then try use a sniper and shoot targets you only see a hitbox when you point on them. Then imagine these are running arround. You have some few milli sec for aim and shoot you don't know with way they run. Well then you have to wait for ages that the rifle reloads in real life you can load a bolt action rifle under 2 sec easily. A skilled sniper uses under 1 sec. A skilled sniper will in real life aquire his target in 2-3 seconds maximum. At short range (300 m) i even can in real life target and hit a man sized target in 2 seconds and i am no sniper.
So if we want keep it real APU's need LoS or target sytem. Or lets give the SH more penetrating power (shooting through ruins in wasteland) and better reload and aiming time (1 sec reload, 2 sec aim). For to be honest in real life all neocron snipers are really unskilled marksmen. I will go so far and say they suck an my grandma is better with a rifle.
Well this is just for keeping it 'real' now remember this is a game. That needs balancing.
[..]you had to be pretty close to be in range,
like tanks..
Ive been playing since Dec 02 and ive always played an APU, LoS thats BS an APU may not have a reticule but why should they? LoS why? ITS GAY! I dont know about anyone whos played an APU but ffs if you miss your dead not to mention an APU is squishy as fuckin cheese. I say no to LoS and a reticule Ive never heard of any kind of game where a Magic type class that has that crap. And it doesnt even boil down to skill If i miss someone, just once, im dead.
cant stop laughing. :lol:
recticle is one thing. los is another. i think monks should have los just to stop that retarded bug where you run away and get hit by someone you cant even see.
recticle is one thing. los is another. i think monks should have los just to stop that retarded bug where you run away and get hit by someone you cant even see.
Thing is, line of sight wouldn't change a damn thing when it comes to this. This is all due to lag and a bad netcode.
Thing is, line of sight wouldn't change a damn thing when it comes to this. This is all due to lag and a bad netcode.
No, if someone on your screen is stuck due to lag you can still shoot him with HL and kill him while you would not inflict damage with a gun. Simply because the server checks for a LoS with guns but gives a shit if youre using HL.
All it needs to be done is to remove ppus from the game. Everything would be balanced... but we can only dream for that.
Personally, i dont think apus need LOS that much - without ppus they are piece of cake anyway, and with ppus they are invincible, so LOS doesnt matter that much. Besides, it would be probably impossible to lvl apu then (at least impossible without ppu)
Ah, and my (rest in peace) pvp spies could take more than 8 HL/FA shots without much hassle, so i dont think its that bad. I cant think of any class who wouldnt be possible to defeat apu in 1on1 combat - for PE its easy, for spy its manageable, for tank its piece of cake. Its just the ppus which makes them invincible.
so it seems the only way is to fight fire with fire... back to lvling my monkies then... :wtf:
Watch the lagit video on page3. Thats what giving apus los will help fix.
But will it? Even with LOS some lances can still go through the ground/wall depending on when you clicked to initiate it and where the person you were shooting at goes to. Its all about Lag and where the client/server side damage decision is made - even if on your PC your 3 miles away on the APUs PC your right there infront your still going to take some damage.
Look at the video again - the HL arent raining down when you turn the corner just one or 2 this is probably due to the the 2 clients talking to the server to tell it whos hit and whats hit - its probably average out what both are telling it and dealt the damage that way.
Or I might be talking complete cobblers - im not sure :)
Yeah, a rant.
Please for gods sake give APUs line of sight. They can keep their stupid point and click aiming and the insane damage, just fix this one for now. I don`t even know how often i got hit by an apu several times after i already ran around several corners, out of sight and haven`t even got him in my fucking local list anymore.
With this goddamn laggy buggy netcode, this just can`t go on. At least give us a statement about it KK. Any chance to get this changed or at least tweaked? Or do we have to live with it like all the other stupid imbalancing bugs? Just so i know, i`ll go and cap my APU then. o_O
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Enough ranting, off to bed now.
....said the pistol spy
....said the pistol spy
o_O
what should that be ?
yes, he has LoS, because he is a pistol spy.
cant understand :confused:
....said the pistol spy
Wow, what an interesting post.
Who the fuck are you?
/edit
This got shit to do with my pistol spy, if you dont know i got 8 characters. Of which some actually are not spies. And guess what? APUs can hit all my characters. Not just my pistol spy.
Wow, what an interesting post.
Who the fuck are you?
Pointing out that you probably got owned by a monk on one of your daring raids so you made a thread whining about how they are overpowered
Pointing out that you probably got owned by a monk on one of your daring raids so you made a thread whining about how they are overpoweredUh, another one of my secret admirers. I love this. :)
And on topic, actually it wasnt my spy. Well as i just said, it happens no matter what character i`m on. As well as to everyone else in this game. So whats your point, idiot?
So whats your point, idiot?
That you went back on your other chars because you can't take dying, but end up dying again.
Wow, changing your sig into funny colors took you quite some time.
Anyway, you obviously got no balls hiding behind some stupid forum account insulting me so i`ll just ignore you. :)
/edit
Ah, this thread looks much better with less idiots in it.
RogerRamjet
09-02-05, 21:05
Ehhhhhhhh.
I dont want los becouse i got "owned". I want it in becouse of getting hit after going around 3 corners, and having no enemy in the area and still dieing to a hl. Its a bug, and it needs fixing regardless of who it pwned.
Also people are saying it wont be fixed completely. Well atleast its a start.
Also someone at kk get your account help guy to answer my email. Once my pbc info is deleted i can remake an account and play neocron :D . Please? 8|
Anyway, you obviously got no balls hiding behind some stupid forum account insulting me so i`ll just ignore you. :)
So what are you doing? and why have you started insulting me?
@(0'_'0)@
^
|
Me hiding in my forum account
This is the problem ppl are talking about
.__________________________.
| |
| ________ |
| X2 | | X1 |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| Y1 | | |
|________| |________|
X = Private Eye
Y = Monk
(I'm only using PE as an example, insert class of your choice)
X1 is the Private Eyes actuall position, but on the Monk's screen he has lagged
out and is running into the wall. On the monks screen the Private Eye is
in fact in the X2 position.
The Monk starts blasting away with HL/FA and the server checks to see if
the distance to the Private Eye is less then 105m. It is, good, Private Eye
takes dmg even though he is around the wall.
Now if it was the other way around, and it was the Monk that was lagged out,
and the Private Eye had started to blast away with any weapon, the server
would check the distance, ok, then it would check if the Monk was in LoS, no
he's not, Monk takes no dmg.
If KK could somehow sort that out, I would be more then fine with Monks not
having LoS. But KK either can't or it simply cannot be done without a major
overhaul of the netcode.
Now giving into KK's current reputation of fixing stuff, I would approximate that
overhaul to be done sometime around christmas in the year of 2008 if they
start doing it today, maybe i'm wrong, but it's not something they are even
remotely thinking of.
So the only thing to do is give APUs LoS, well maybe not full LoS like with other
guns, I dont mind being shot even though there is a barrell or a crate in the
way, but give them some kind of LoS so that if it's a full wall between the
Monk and Private Eye the monk cant actually dmg the PE.
landofcake
10-02-05, 00:22
That you went back on your other chars because you can't take dying, but end up dying again.
OMG LOLLEROLLER
hmm, incompleate los might be a good idea, or no los provided the range is very close. As for reticles, you people are shooting yourself in the foot. If monks were given reticles a few things would happen:
1) monks loose reticles, its a huge nurf, apus keep getting owned, people complain about never hitting due to cast time
2) spells changed to fire then reload, not prepair and then fire, apus now can instantly damage what they see
3) apus end up stronger then before, spells no longer fizzle and they can hit instantly, and still it will be less fun playing apus due to a NEED to have ppus so you can waight to line up your shots if people are strafing.
End result- the apu/ppu team is encouridged even more and the game becomes less fun to play for all classes
Now as for apus being over powered in an op war.......no
if you out number the other side, apus own, no one keeps a lock and apus kick ass.
If the numbers are equil- tanks and apus are both good, tanks don't die and apus do lots of damage, you need both
If you have less people then the other side......log your tanks.....apus can't take constant dmg even with a ppu, tanks can, one tank and a ppu can fight 7 or 8 people provided the ppu gets his heals off, and the tank does enouph damage to take down all but the ppus.
In diffrent circumstances diffrent classes are good, whiners that say if the atacker is taking no damage then apus own are stupid. In an op war try this, target one apu....they still go down, fast.
Also although apus are relly good with a ppu, solo they are at a signifigent dissadvatgage. I don't see this as an issue. if you want to solo pvp, make a hybrid or a pe or a spy you want to solo pvp or pvp in a small no ppu team, and still respond well to a ppu, make a tank.
If you want to be very strong with a ppu but suck otherwise, make an apu.
apu+ppu>tank+ppu true, but in larger fights tanks are just a good, so the only thing apus are soo good for is 2v2 with ppus.
Well if people upgraded from their shitty 56k connections then ppl wouldnt lag through walls. Or maybe KK is dling too much pr0n :eek: 8| :cool:
Well if people upgraded from their shitty 56k connections then ppl wouldnt lag through walls. Or maybe KK is dling too much pr0n :eek: 8| :cool:
If you couldnt tell there is almost no one here that has 56k... How do you think somone would download a 1.6 gig game with that slow connection? :lol:
Asurmen Spec Op
10-02-05, 01:21
Well if people upgraded from their shitty 56k connections then ppl wouldnt lag through walls. Or maybe KK is dling too much pr0n :eek: 8| :cool: no one here has a 56k dude, we hadda download the game
PS:
youve crammed alot more shit into that post count then ME
and I fucking spam!
Well if people upgraded from their shitty 56k connections then ppl wouldnt lag through walls.
You live in north america right? Are you telling me you dont get this problem?
I'm on a 5 meg line and I still get lag spikes/ppl geting stuck (usa). So it's not on our side, it's the buggy net code that is makeing ppl/drones get stuck/not show the right position.
Jesterthegreat
10-02-05, 02:10
But will it? Even with LOS some lances can still go through the ground/wall depending on when you clicked to initiate it and where the person you were shooting at goes to. Its all about Lag and where the client/server side damage decision is made - even if on your PC your 3 miles away on the APUs PC your right there infront your still going to take some damage.
Look at the video again - the HL arent raining down when you turn the corner just one or 2 this is probably due to the the 2 clients talking to the server to tell it whos hit and whats hit - its probably average out what both are telling it and dealt the damage that way.
Or I might be talking complete cobblers - im not sure :)
thats the whole point. if i did that with a CS the blobs would hit the wall... not go through them.
Well if people upgraded from their shitty 56k connections then ppl wouldnt lag through walls. Or maybe KK is dling too much pr0n :eek: 8| :cool:
Well i dunno with you but i have a 512k DSL line with actually 512k up and down.
I have been victim for that bug too so maybe you should start trying to think before you post inputs that makes no sence ;) . I even tried the bug when i was using a 2 Mbit line.
Cry.
CryCry...
and WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU WHINING ABOUT LOS...
how about whining about fixing the netcode?
Fix the netcode, and u won't get shot after running behind couple corners.
Worst case scenario:
You run like hell from apu, but in apus screen ur doing nothing more than standing still.
What do you do:
1) Die
2) Crash and die
3) Quit playing
3) Come to forums and whine
or
4) Just shut the fuck up and cry?
Why don't you cry about - HEY NERF PISTOL SPIES CAUSE THEY CAN TAKE APUS DOWN 1v1? Oh yeah, almost forgot, you are one of them.
(actually i would call it 50/50 - pspy with good aim and con spec takes down apu. and apu with good aim takes apu down)
Apu vs Pistol spy - i would say pistol spy
Apu vs Rifle spy - rifle spy using HL - rifle spy wins.
Apu vs MC tank - (in close quarters) - mc tank using either dentist or pob (depending on apus setup) - mctank wins. [Failed legshot]
Apu vs HC tank - (close quarters again) - HCtank wins with Speedgat [Failed legshot]
Apu vs PPU - ppu wins... well, ppu pwns u all.
Catch my point? Apu is next to worthless without ppu and buffs. "FIX" the LoS and you will never see apu running around without ppu, even tho it's already REALLY rare these days.
My 2cents......... onos nerf the pistolerzzzzzzzzzzzzz... come on.. cry for me now..
"Give" apus LoS, and take Shelter from spies.
./me starts searching for Justin_Timberlake-Cry_me_a_river.mp3
bla whine whine bla blaStop bringing that stupid spy argument, thats got fuck all to do with it.
And actually you`re the one crying here. Let me have a guess, your main class would be an apu? o_O
Jesterthegreat
10-02-05, 04:11
Stop bringing that stupid spy argument, thats got fuck all to do with it.
And actually you`re the one crying here. Let me have a guess, your main class would be an apu? o_O
try only class.
Cry.
CryCry...
and WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU WHINING ABOUT LOS...
how about whining about fixing the netcode?
Fix the netcode, and u won't get shot after running behind couple corners.
Because the net code will be so much harder to fix then just giving Apus LoS.
I do agree it does need fixing but the apu shit needs fixing now.
Hah, and lol, and what ever...
You couldn't figure out any better countermove? oviously not.
No, APU is not my main class. But yes, i have an APU, oh wait.. i also have Mc tank, HC tank, PPU, Pistol spy, Rifle spy, droner and rifle PE.
So figure that.
I like playing apu, but i also like playing every other class there is. I've tried hybrids, HCPEs, MCPEs etc.
How about looking retrons post? and there is ur fucking answer, it has NOTHING to do with Line of Fucking Sight.
It's all about client-server-client LAGGGGGGGGGGG.. omg the fearsome LAG.
But that's what ppl always prefers to. "I died due LAG".
Lets go this way:
LoS is implemented for APUS:
1) Apu sees pistol spy and starts shooting.
2) Spy notices this and starts running around tree/UG/whatever
3) client-server-client lag enters the PvP situation with HUGE NERF HAMMER.
4) client-server-client makes a succesful roll of apu not seeing the spy because he doesn't have constant line of sight cause the nib spy is exploiting the netcode by running around tree and clipping like hell...
no need to answer the consequenses....
U wanna ruin the entire APU-class? Yeah, go ahead and continue your pointless whinezor thread.
If you could read, you could probably understand why this would kill apus, but let's put it in suitable form for your brains to comprehend it:
KK comes with the BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG NERF HAMMER, and takes away the drugs and the shelter from poor pistol spy, and KABOOOOOOM... suddenly no one plays pistol spy cause u would have to "GIMP" to be effective and still suck. And then u come to forums and start a thread called: "ONOS WTF IS THIS, I CANT DO SHIT ON MY PISTOL SPY CAUSE 3v1L KK TOOK MY DRUGS".
With the present netcode, there is no way LOS would work.
Yeah, apus can shoot "behind" corners, but ur forgetting that in his screen, you might still be visible.
Figure that out without mommys help, and then try posting with some real insults. Throwing a wild guess of APU being my main (or only) class only makes u look incompetent to counter my post.
Edit: some ppl might have noticed that i'm really bored at work cause i have so much time to write so long posts :P
This isent some massive nerf so stop acting like it is. Giving los to monks is just one way to work around the netcode. Stop whining so much.
Jester put up a point though, so i dont know if it would work. Unless you know how the servers calculate how people are hit then you cant know for sure either. It can be no need for los or it can be that bolts go through objects.
"1) Apu sees pistol spy and starts shooting.
2) Spy notices this and starts running around tree/UG/whatever
3) client-server-client lag enters the PvP situation with HUGE NERF HAMMER.
4) client-server-client makes a succesful roll of apu not seeing the spy because he doesn't have constant line of sight cause the nib spy is exploiting the netcode by running around tree and clipping like hell..."
Er doesent this basicly happen to every class but monks right now, and monks dont even have a recticle to aim?
Not to mention noone said it couldent be tested first.
Sorry if i missed anything important here.
Every other class has the net code prob so why shouldnt apu?
This isent some massive nerf so stop acting like it is. Giving los to monks is just one way to work around the netcode. Stop whining so much.
Er doesent this basicly happen to every class but monks right now, and monks dont even have a recticle to aim?
Not to mention noone said it couldent be tested first.
Sorry if i missed anything important here.
It's focused on apus cause the damage output is highest.
The point is high damage + high RoF + client-server lag. So the biggest problem is the last one, which cannot be fixed with adding some reticle etc.
Cause the fact is that you might appear to be standing still on the opponents screen, while ur running ur ass off on ur own screen. That (imho) is the biggest problem, not the LoS or lack of reticle. The reason why the HL hits after you have "hide" behind something is because of the RoF and the client-server thinggy.
Adding LoS: Apu presses button to shoot HL(couple times and the opponent is running around) -> server notices this -> server checks the current location of the target and makes the calculations based on the information gathered(including the factors of walls/trees/etc) -> due to the lag opponent (in his screen) has already gone behind wall -> server informs the apu that opponent is behind a wall, you can't shoot him -> APU fizzles.
The way it works now: Apu presses button with a clear target even tho the opponent is making his way behind wall -> server notices this -> APU casts the spell and hits the target even tho the target has managed to get behind the wall.
That is how i see it.
And to add a note, i'm not whining i'm just countering a whining thread about apus shooting through walls. And i think i have proven the point of HOW it would work.
@Tostino: every other class can do it too until the point that the target has gone behind the wall. Then it comes to the fact that they are using projectile weapons and those cannot go through walls (big hand to KK), and apu is calling god to blast that mofo with a lightning what comes directly above the target, and the LOS is not between the APU and the target.
Ozambabbaz
10-02-05, 09:27
there's many more problems on the whole monk issue than u try to make it out as, wannabe.
i know all u monks have gotten use to the way it is and while it is true that any char can kill an apu 1on1, this has nothing to do with ur own ineffectiveness, u have to remove player skill from that equation.
since this is impossible we have to pit any one class vs an apu as if they both were of same twitch/reflex/coordination/awareness levels. in such a scenario it obviously takes more than one apu-player ( :lol: ) to figure out that the one without weaponspeed nerf, who's also without los, who has the highest damage output of all and who does not need to maintain a reticle lock-on will win each and every time.
KK still has a game with great potential, there's alot of gameplay stoppers but there's that one thing that NC offers, which we the players want and that's pvp.
balance it or the game will just continue to crumble and die.
How about looking retrons post? and there is ur fucking answer, it has NOTHING to do with Line of Fucking Sight.
It's all about client-server-client LAGGGGGGGGGGG.. omg the fearsome LAG.
But that's what ppl always prefers to. "I died due LAG".It has EVERYTHING to do with line of sight. As i hardly doubt KK are abled to ever fix the lag problem, removing LoS is the only way around this.
Lets go this way:
LoS is implemented for APUS:
1) Apu sees pistol spy and starts shooting.
2) Spy notices this and starts running around tree/UG/whatever
3) client-server-client lag enters the PvP situation with HUGE NERF HAMMER.
4) client-server-client makes a succesful roll of apu not seeing the spy because he doesn't have constant line of sight cause the nib spy is exploiting the netcode by running around tree and clipping like hell...You mean like it is FOR EVERY OTHER CLASS?
U wanna ruin the entire APU-class? Yeah, go ahead and continue your pointless whinezor thread.I cant even see how this would destroy an entire class just because they couldnt lagkill people who cant avoid getting hit anymore. You mean, actually aiming? OMG, thats a bit too harsh for APUS!!11 :rolleyes::
If you could read, you could probably understand why this would kill apus, but let's put it in suitable form for your brains to comprehend it:
KK comes with the BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG NERF HAMMER, and takes away the drugs and the shelter from poor pistol spy, and KABOOOOOOM... suddenly no one plays pistol spy cause u would have to "GIMP" to be effective and still suck. And then u come to forums and start a thread called: "ONOS WTF IS THIS, I CANT DO SHIT ON MY PISTOL SPY CAUSE 3v1L KK TOOK MY DRUGS".You know what? I don`t even know who the fuck you are. I give a shit if you don`t like me ingame or what. But this got absolutely nothing to do here, you`re making a complete idiot of yourself. So stop bringing my spy into this.
There is NO way to compare this. I actually have to aim. And i can`t damage people who lag out and get stuck in one place, not even moving at all. So what`s your fucking point? Why should APUs be allowed to do this?
With the present netcode, there is no way LOS would work.
Yeah, apus can shoot "behind" corners, but ur forgetting that in his screen, you might still be visible. Once again, in that exact situation NO OTHER CLASS CAN DO ANY DAMAGE TO THAT PERSON EXCEPT AN APU!
Looks like i shot this guy once too often. :angel:
balance it or the game will just continue to crumble and die.
there will be no balance in this game as long as ppus are the part of it.
everyone knows that, i hope, it goes like this:
ppu > numbers > skills > class balance
edit:
as for the apu comments, i repeat my statement. I would rather see monk dmg getting nerfed then LoS for them as it would make impossible to lvl apu without a ppu help. Completely impossible.
Ozambabbaz
10-02-05, 10:34
well, next on my agenda would be;
remove Holy Heal completely, keep Group Holy Heal
nerf Blessed Heal by 25% leave Group Blessed Heal as it is
make Shelter/Deflector self-cast only, again keep group versions in-game
make foreign cast support-/combat-/resist-boosters have half duration
might actually bring *shock* tactics and planning into pvp :eek:
well, next on my agenda would be;
remove Holy Heal completely, keep Group Holy Heal
nerf Blessed Heal by 25% leave Group Blessed Heal as it is
make Shelter/Deflector self-cast only, again keep group versions in-game
make foreign cast support-/combat-/resist-boosters have half duration
might actually bring *shock* tactics and planning into pvp :eek:
yay, i like it. I like it very very much :)
awesome idea with self cast s/d and group for foreign casting. Group type of spells are kinda useless now anyway, so it would add alot into the game.
xx yy
xxxxxxx yyyy
xxxxxxxxxxxx yy
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx yyyyy
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx yyyy
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx yy
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx y
oo
oooo
oo
Ok here is some more l33t ascii.
x = hill
y = grim chaser
o = apu
Now if some kind of semi-los for monks was implemented, you could still level
by shooting the grim chaser, as he is not totally obscured (sp?) but if there
is a full hill, or a full wall between you and the mob/player you cannot dmg
him/her.
I know lvling an APU will become hard as hell if full LoS was implemented, and
the need for a ppu would be even higher then it is now. But fixing the netcode
will take way to much time considering what KK allready has on their list.
I'm still undecided if APUs do need this kind of semi-LoS or not, but it's the
only thing i can think of to fix the problem quickly without some major changes.
Another problem is also the RoF of APU spells vs. the animation of the spells.
I dont know if this problem is still around, I havent tried it out in a long
while, but back in NC1, say six months pre NC2 an APU could fire his spell faster
then the animation could show it, so it was somewhat the same effect, you got
hit after you run to safety, this together with the netcode gives you what the
movie a few pages back showed.
Something needs to be done about this, although i'm not for full LoS, not now
anyway, i think KK should implement some sort of semi-LoS and try that out first,
if that fails, then LoS will fix the problem, but probably nerf the class somewhat.
Also for all of you ppl saying that a "magician" doesnt need to target their
enemies, it comes from the sky etc etc, PSI monks are not magic, it's psionic,
and you still need to know the position of the player in order to know where
to strike with the HL.
The netcode issue is a totally different matter though, i've tried this out
somewhat, and the only thing i can think of to fix this the way it is now is
to up the updaterate somewhat. This is what happends today:
_____________________________
| |
| ______________ |
| | _________ | |
| o | | o |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| Y1 X1 | | X2 |
|_________| |_________|
X = Guy X - Private Eye
Y = Guy Y - APU Monk
X1 = Start Position
X2 = End Position
This leet little illustration is of the actuall path the player X will run around
to get around the wall, but since the update rate is to slow, it doesnt actually
update all the positions, it will update the position marked with an "o".
On the screen of Player Y the position has been updated twice, but, instead of
running around the "obsticles" (sp?) player X will simply be running into a wall
because positions always go through a straight line, on player Y's screen the
path will look something like this:
_____________________________
| |
| |
| _________ |
| o-|---------|--o |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| Y1 X1 | | X2 |
|_________| |_________|
Because it's not been updated enough, and this causes Player X to to run into
a wall, and it take a few seconds before it updates again and Player X is simply
warped through the wall. In those few seconds, the Monk has shot player X with
4 HL shots, even though player X was safely away from player Y.
If the update rate was upped somewhat, then Player X's path might look something
like this instead (on Player Y's screen):
_____________________________
| |
| ___o____ |
| /________\ |
| o| |\o |
| /| | \ |
| | | | | |
| Y1 X1 | | X2 |
|_________| |_________|
Where "o" markes the updated position. Player X would be running "through" corners,
but would not end up running into a wall because he cant get past it for a few
seconds, and then warping through it once the position has been updated again. This
will not fix a whole lot, but is better then getting hit 4 times with an HL/FA out
of nowhere.
I can imagine upping the updaterate will eat more bandwidth from the servers but
KK needs to sort this out.
I hope i'm making some sence in what i'm trying to say, it's prettly early, i just
woke up and havent had any coffe yet. And sorry for my bad ASCII skillz.
Bugs Gunny
10-02-05, 12:05
AND..... work on toning down the highest level mobs a bit :-)
But i like that too, even though i also have a ppu.
seriously... chill out and look back at tiikiri (or something, sorry for missspell) post...
single APU vs ANY class = APU loses.
in stead of giving the APU LoS, why dont KK remove parashock??
parashock is prolly for most ppl the biggest problem, cept maybe allied PKers.
(yes, this is a cry to remove para)
yes i know my main class is PPU and that i use para aswell sometimes.
but on topic..
APUs are fine, major offence, but (almost) no defence.
yes they do insane dmg and even hit u when ur 2 corners ahead of him/her, but take out his legs (melee tanks read: shock him/her) and the APU is useless.
most APUs arent that hard to kill, I think threadstarter got owned by APUs, and now is crying for a nerf.
as for pistol spies (never played pistol spy but..) use slasher, close combat spies like Kid or Zyccy (Rebel) can surely take out most APUs
I suppose that all weapons would do this (HL around a corner) (and yes im sticking with the client/server lag problem) if they didnt have that annoying "if you hit a wall stop" routine, watch the rockets from the cyclopses/warbots flame bolts/poison from other mobs they follow you around the room and you have to hide behind a wall to get rid of them,
my theory on this is that the server has already decided that the mob has hit you, so the bolt continues to track you wherever you may run, if you hide wall/tree/hill then the "hit a wall routine" kicks in and you dont take damage, the same goes for the fire spells from spiders they dont affect you when you hide because the comms is coming server side rather than lagged from another client.
If your going to enforce a LOS only on APUs then I suggest we all get that, the droner can only operate a drone within LOS, the tank cant use grenades or grenade throwers, the PPU cant use 3rd person to buff a teammate whos in the middle of a mele scrum etc etc.
Its been around from NC1 we all use it, we all best learn to live with it (as I cant see anything changing in the short term)
Just my drivelings :)
RogerRamjet
10-02-05, 14:42
I agree with Ice that a lone APU can be taken down by most other classes, unless he is a good APU of course. My old lotech rifle PE could kill an APU in 3 bursts or so of Pain Easer.
And I dont think the thread starter got "owned" by APUs, he is just saying that because APU is the only class which doesnt need line of sight they have an advantage when the server doesnt move the player to where he should be, and since classes who use projectile type weapons get checked by the server for LOS when they attack a person who is lagging into a wall etc, the only thing an APU needs is range, and on the HL it is pretty good.
Logan_storm_03
10-02-05, 15:29
I agree with points from both sides of the topic, firstly it is annoying to be clearly behind cover yet still get blasted to hell and watch you health drop and you cant do a damn thing. But would it make them underpowerd if they had to use LoS? i meen me be being a rifle spy player all teh way, when i come across a lone APU its like one of the easyest kill to have ( except melee tanks ), firstly there range is comparebly short so you can outrange them by far. tbh i dont really have a clue what should be done :rolleyes:
Watch the lagit video on page3. Thats what giving apus los will help fix
i think he will still be hit as he was in line of sight when they fired on him not sure tho
Because everybody else except drones got reticle and that's an advantage in itself. Couple it up with weapon runspeed decrease and no LoS, it's ridiculous
everyone else have aheal as well might be TL 3 heal but its still 500% more effective then a medkit not to mention apus cant really take any damage
its about the same con as spies have and spies can stealth
Well i tried to give my spy more fire resist but still the FA just eats spy's alive. So if you really want a chance against solo APU you have to be tank or PE.
as apu u take SO much damage from the uba spy weapons so a cvouple of hits and its bye bye apu
monks can do the most damage.
monks can take the least damage.
erm not the same monk thats 2 different kinda monks thats on either side of the scale
and u get hit around corners cuz of lag u see u around the corner but the enemy dont happens with mobs to
seriously... chill out and look back at tiikiri (or something, sorry for missspell) post...
single APU vs ANY class = APU loses.
in stead of giving the APU LoS, why dont KK remove parashock??
parashock is prolly for most ppl the biggest problem, cept maybe allied PKers.
(yes, this is a cry to remove para)
yes i know my main class is PPU and that i use para aswell sometimes.
but on topic..
APUs are fine, major offence, but (almost) no defence.
yes they do insane dmg and even hit u when ur 2 corners ahead of him/her, but take out his legs (melee tanks read: shock him/her) and the APU is useless.
most APUs arent that hard to kill, I think threadstarter got owned by APUs, and now is crying for a nerf.
I agree with u in all exept that para thinggy :) specially the one in bold.
and
single APU vs ANY class = APU loses. is so true.
Prolly should lom to hybrid to be able to use the shelter, and then get whined bout being a gimpy hyb. Or then not to LoM and get whined because i have ppu covering my ass all the time. Or then the 3rd option, solo around as APU and die to grimz + get ganked by almost everyone and the come to cry on forums about apus being sucky and they need a boost.
Kid ever tried to play apu without ppu?`it's the same thing as you playing without being a drugwhore - oh sorry, misspelled it.. S P Y U S I N G S H E L T E R
Edit: btw: it's T I I K E R I = and means Tiger in finnish.
I agree with u in all exept that para thinggy :) specially the one in bold.
Kid ever tried to play apu without ppu?`it's the same thing as you playing without being a drugwhore - oh sorry, misspelled it.. S P Y U S I N G S H E L T E RRight, of course i got owned. But just to make it clear, i don`t care if it happens the usual way. Nor do i care what character i`m playing, so ffs stop that spy bullshit. I`m just pissed about that bug or lag or imbalance or whatever we should call it.
I can`t see how people can not agree this bug should be fixed, i just gave a suggestion how to do it. So stop fucking flaming me just because you don`t like me.
And once again, stop that spy bullshit. Actually, even with a shelter, APUs are by far the hardest class to fight one on one and i know quite a lot of APUs who are fine on their own without getting wasted by everyone. You must be a bad APU. :)
/edit
Adn how about you stop whine and make up some own ideas to solve that problem? o_O
Ozambabbaz
10-02-05, 17:34
whyyyyyyyyyyyyy
whyyyyyyyyy can't u figure it out
chose the easy way out once too often?
point and click + highest damage dealer + fastest runspeed > anything else
period
Topping it off with no LoS is just over the hill and under the belt
If you couldnt tell there is almost no one here that has 56k... How do you think somone would download a 1.6 gig game with that slow connection? :lol:
They have only just finished dling it...hence why they are nibbish and whiney
point and click + highest damage dealer + fastest runspeed > anything elseNot when you are able to aim, able to be smart enough to know how to move to make them miss hits and have a gun that'll cut them to pieces.
Ozambabbaz
10-02-05, 17:42
Not when you are able to aim, able to be smart enough to know how to move to make them miss hits and have a gun that'll cut them to pieces.
they are able to learn the exact same thing, except, whoops, they don't need LoS or lock-on time
Edit: btw: it's T I I K E R I = and means Tiger in finnish.
sorry couldnt remember ur nickname by head, my apologies for that, Tiikeri ;)
im not flaming u Kid (if u meant me) (and i love u, <3 kiss kiss),
im just saying that APUs are, without PPU, the weakest class in this game, and that they should have no LoS.
an unbuffed APU you killed in 3/4 bursts, 1 clip max (for some ppl 3 clips max)
if u hit the legs he cant do shit. he runs like he has a para on him.
Ok an APU with no PPU gets owned well so does every other class. But APU/PPU ownes all tbh.
Yeah you can kill him with your rifle spy with HL. :wtf: Well i have a rifle spy i cap my HL but when i am finish aiming on that bastard APU i am almost dead cause he had like 2 hits already and when its a FA i got hit with i will die. Unless i get PPU help. What can i say i am a spy i can't runcast a healing on me.
Standing still = death (no matter class)
I can't see how you guys can defend that a monk shouldn't have LoS. Yeah whine whine i got no resist and get owned when they hit me whine whine. I need my uber dmg and no LoS and no aiming time cause else i die whine whine. So tbh who is whining here?
Yes you die fast thats why you got the uber dmg dealing, end of story. The killing cause of lag is a kind of exploiting and needs fix thats all what there is to tell about that.
Why don't we change the type of spell HL is then? It could be like the energy ball or somthing of that sort.
Ozambabbaz
10-02-05, 19:20
Why don't we change the type of spell HL is then? It could be like the energy ball or somthing of that sort.
That would actually endorse the locational damage it does.
Which, btw, is the number one runner crippler
they are able to learn the exact same thing, except, whoops, they don't need LoS or lock-on time
Lock on has nothing really to do with it, and when fighting PvP LoS has little to do with a fight either, its only really IMO a PvM issue.
If a Tank or PE cannot take down an APU one on one then its nothing to do with the game mechanics, its just either bad luck or not being able to PvP that good.
And a spy should have no problem either with a bit of stealthing skill.
I just don't see what is wrong with just giving them LOS is. You can pvp just fine with a flame queen ava (as a mid lvl apu I mean ;)).
Marantz Trial
10-02-05, 22:46
As stated x ammount of pages back there is no MMO on earth that demands magic classes target, gain a lock then fire and redo the process. I doubt NC is going to change just because some players happen to be better at killing then others, did you know most of these threads are really complaints after losing at Neofrag to xx class?
Neofrag setting,
"STOP KILLING ME WITH THAT GAY HL I HATE YOU"
"Your the one that wanted to dual..."
"I HATE YOU! IM GONNA POST A THREAD AND GET YOU NERFED!!!"
"...ok"
Forums,
"I'LL GET THAT HL NERFED NOW! HAHAHAHAHHAH WHAT SHOULD MY COMPLAINT BE THIS TIME........OMG NO LOS WTF"
*7 pages of "oh yeah lets nerf it! we got owned in neofrag too!"*
*3 pages of people actually knowing what they are talking about*
*2 more pages of the first guys telling the guys knowing what they are talking about to stfu and get some skill*
*4 new "I'm leaving threads" because of the nibs*
*17 new "I'm leaving threads" because of getting owned in neofrag*
Back to Neocron,
"I HATE YOU! YOU KILLED ME AT NEOFRAG!!!!"
Repeat forums processes with Tanks involved now, NERF THEIR CON!!
Lets just give LOS to everyhting, remove para, make all classes con cap at 5, lets also make it so if your moving at all its almost impossible to target the other player, actually lets add a buy menu and call it counter cron! O_o
[PiN]Fluffy
10-02-05, 22:54
Wow, being gone for so long, and Monks still Rule? hehe God its good to be back (I only play PE's, but Im in a car, so I just run away^^) :p
True though, If monks get Instant aiming, cant a few guns have it?^^
(then every APU bursts in)
NOOO!!!!
HEE HEE insta AIMmyMY CS and FL ^_^
As stated x ammount of pages back there is no MMO on earth that demands magic classes target, gain a lock then fire and redo the process
Well Marantz, every other game thats mmo has every class autolock so you cant realy compare. Not to mention NC isent like every other mmo, and why should it be.
Also Marantz instead of trying to insult everyone trying to come up with a fix, come up with one yourself. All your doing is making people angry.
I realise i dont know enough of how neocron works to solve this problem. I think i will leave that up to the people who actualy know somthing about how nc2 works.
[Edited]
What an excellnt constructive post. I give it 5 asshats.
Comparing Neocron to other games isnt really viable, since there are tons of
stuff that other games have and neocron doesnt, so why compare them?
[Edited]
It's a damn discussion forum, if you dont like the discussion going on, dont
read it, dont post in it, unless you have something to contribute with.
And there is nothing magic about PSI monks
Ozambabbaz
10-02-05, 23:27
Lock on has nothing really to do with it, and when fighting PvP LoS has little to do with a fight either, its only really IMO a PvM issue.
If a Tank or PE cannot take down an APU one on one then its nothing to do with the game mechanics, its just either bad luck or not being able to PvP that good.
And a spy should have no problem either with a bit of stealthing skill.
why doesn't it?
player A has a significant chance of his pistol/rifle/cannon missing completely or partially when aiming in a fast paced 1on1
player B does not, he points and clicks. he doesn't have any runspeed nerf when using his weapon, the highest damage locational dealing weapon in the game. That doesn't require LoS, just a snippet of a target box or a weird 3rd person preset.
player A can reduce the chance of missing by leading the target for miliseconds, but even with a fully closed reticle there is a chance to miss completely, or only do partial damage.
player B points and clicks, yep, using a Holy Lightning, the highest damage dealing weapon, also locational damage, and it does not require direct LoS, either. Oh, it has no effect on his runspeed while he has it drawn.
if player A hits fire when not aiming at his adversary, his next attempt with his reticle will be with an increased chance of missing completely
player B just points and clicks anyway, i guess you know which module he's press, press, pressing that fire button with.
player A is good at using the terrain and any obstacles to his advantage. except often that doesn't matter since his adversary doesn't need LoS and thus has great potential of laghitting player A
player B is also good at using terrain, infact player B can use small obstacles to make his adversarys weapon not hit him at all, while player B just keeps on pointing and clicking and damaging...with the highest damage dealing, locational also, no LoS weapon with no runspeed decrease.
I remeber many APUs say "omfgz, weakass, spec some PPU for shelter, nib" to any guy on the forum who mentioned that Spies could have a hard time against some spells.
OMFGZ, N00BAH MCN00BEN MR APU, SPEC SOME PPU OMGZ LOL IRL TBHTBH for all those that say APUs are weak defence wise 1on1
End game monk combined armor resists amounts to 417. 417 points.
People hail PEs as being tough to kill 1on1, their standard armor loadout amounts to 334 points. Spec some PE PPU for fucks sake.
For comparison Tanks get 394 armor points.
And you can't discuss balance on what has happened in-game, too many factors, imagine a peachy world where everybody has perfect connection, insta twitch and aim skill etc.
@Kopaka: np :)
@Kid: wanna try if i suck on my APU?.... can't even count the amount of times you have eaten the dirt after my actions. Or back in Nc1 raiding TGC alone with red SL and including the huge factor of being totally wasted (thnx to bottle of Smirnoff). I might have a bit rusty aim these days because i haven't played my apu that much, but still ppl usually have the tendency to end up looking at the sky. And you still don't get my spy comments? jesus.. let's put it in simple: How would u feel if ppl would try to get ur prefered class fucked up?
@whoeversaidit: i consider mctank/ppu team being better than apu/ppu team, atleast back in nc1 meh and crommy dropped quite a many apu/ppu teams.
@all: I think this thread has already proven its point of being totally useless. The threadstarter has already said that he got pwnd by an apu, and that is the reason why he came to rant. I know it's fucking annoying when the HL hits you from nowhere, but what can we do? nothing really until the character locations are precise. I been killed by an apu around corners and shit and i know it's really frustrating..
I don't think that apus are overpowered. They do too much dmg but die quickly. They just don't fit into this type of game where the combat isn't insta death for either fighter
[Edited]Right, instead of going for me once again, how bout something constructive? Like a solution to the problem. Cause there is one. Seriously. 7 pages of bullshit and 3 pages of people "actually knowing what theyre talking"? Fuck off, most of them just posted against it cause they dont like me. o_O
And if you wouldve actually read my posts, you would know that ITS NOT ABOUT MY FUCKING SPY, IM GETTING SICK OF ALL YOU FUCKTARDS GOING FOR ME PERSONALLY!
Hell, this shit is pissing me off.
/edit
Oh and Tikerii, i still don`t know who you are. Too many people tell me how they once pwned me and shit. o_O
"After my actions", haha i bet that means you crying on teamspeak calling in the zerg army. Yeah, those usually made me eat dust. :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Once" isn't quite enough.
Edit: oh but don't worry, i won't be ganking u that much because WoW hits retail in EU...
I use vent, not teamspeak.
and i'm more used to fight with a small group than a zerg, just because how things were in nc1.
Marantz Trial
11-02-05, 03:05
[Edited]
All right let me just re-explain myself. I think apus are fine, you are all finding a problem in something that has no problem, the problem is yourself and your skills. I noticed a tank that killed me with a parashock on him and he used his CS. I think we should nerf Tanks int he next patch so they have to have an absolute lock to even hit me once, and with the cannon they should be point blank range and it should only fire one shot not a burst because I might get beat in a game where death means very little, but somebody might have my dog tags and I cannot call myself uber.
That is how you are all acting...like idiots. The soultion to the problem is to leave it alone, monks will never get LOS because there is no need to aim, in fact they shouldnt even need LOS to shoot, they should be able to attack you with their minds instead of having to even POINT at you, so be greatful that they can't. I have often thought about monks being able to select a target and constantly hit it no matter where it is on the screen but god forbid I ever voice that opinion.....OH MY GOD MONKS ARE HORRIBLE OH MY GOD OVERPOWEREDWTF I LOST AT NEOFRAG SO WE NEED TO NERF THEM!
Ya know...I was beat in Neofrag by a spy with a slasher who was running fast, I think that we should reduce the speed of runners with pistols out, reduce the speed of the slasher and damage, it killed my tank and my monk with no problem and I couldnt hit it.
Now does that make more sense?
Jesterthegreat
11-02-05, 03:17
[Edited]
Marantz Trial
11-02-05, 03:59
[Edited]
That was just a constructive post, [Edited]
Just because the rest caught me on a bad post doesnt mean you have to try :D *hands you a tissue* www.google.com
[Edited]
I got nothing to add to this.
/edit
To add some sense here, you never said anything that made sense. [Edited]You didnt even mention the problem i was talking about. [Edited]
I win. I always do.
[Edited]
Yes, we are all idiots, we are sorry, we are just acting this way because we all
got owned by an APU. Damn, we all deserve to die. And your idea kicks ass, yes
APUs would then have best dmg, and NO AIM AT ALL! Man, why didnt someone
come up with that one before? I mean, why should APU get to aim? It's stupid
really... Remove Aim from APUs! Make then autoattack closest target, or the
target selected. Plz plz.
Yes, we are all idiots, we are sorry, we are just acting this way because we all
got owned by an APU. Damn, we all deserve to die. And your idea kicks ass, yes
APUs would then have best dmg, and NO AIM AT ALL! Man, why didnt someone
come up with that one before? I mean, why should APU get to aim? It's stupid
really... Remove Aim from APUs! Make then autoattack closest target, or the
target selected. Plz plz.
I didnt expect this to happen, but i thank you for your support.
Tell your mates they always bring up a good fight and when i die or leave the place, i`m just pissed about nothing in general. I just love bitching on OOC. :)
The thing with spamming people behind walls is more netcode than los really, but giving monks los on their spells might not be such a bad idea, such as, not changing the animation, just the server checking with the client to whether they attacker actually has los with the target. The only thing is though, it might make levelling an apu (espeically solo) a tad harder... cough cough :rolleyes:
Bugs Gunny
11-02-05, 12:10
Oh, you mean as in not being able to solo rank 80+ mobs at a ridiculously low rank from behind hills :-)
Oh, you mean as in not being able to solo rank 80+ mobs at a ridiculously low rank from behind hills :-)
cough cough
That is how you are all acting...like idiots. The soultion to the problem is to leave it alone, monks will never get LOS because there is no need to aim, in fact they shouldnt even need LOS to shoot, they should be able to attack you with their minds instead of having to even POINT at you, so be greatful that they can't.
What are you saying by this? Monks are fine and the whole game is fine don't fix anything. It should be that monks use their minds to attack players.
Well a sniper rifle should be able to penetrate a empty crate and defenetly go through the cardboxes ;) . As postet before a 7,62 mm projectile has the force to penetrate a 60 cm brick wall in a distance of 100 m. NATO ammonition that is.
Now you can answer to this:
Now does that make more sense?
Can we have less flaming please and keep this thread on topic or it will end up getting closed.
Marantz Trial
11-02-05, 22:15
What are you saying by this? Monks are fine and the whole game is fine don't fix anything. It should be that monks use their minds to attack players.
Well a sniper rifle should be able to penetrate a empty crate and defenetly go through the cardboxes ;) . As postet before a 7,62 mm projectile has the force to penetrate a 60 cm brick wall in a distance of 100 m. NATO ammonition that is.
Now you can answer to this:
I was just making an example of a stupid request, but one that has gone through my mind a few times.
I agree the game is fine the way it is its just people wanting change and not happy with how one person left in the game can still beat them.
As for the sniper rifle, I agree 100% you should be able to shoot through some objects like walls and such, maybe shooting through a door ya know? Its odd how a rotten box can stop a wave of plasma, sniper shots, assault rifle shots, and just about anything else. I say nerf the boxes! :p
The majority of this problem lies with the netcode. However, giving APUs LoS would also help with this issue. Some people may say that monks should be able to hit people without LoS because "that's the way they are." I call bullshit. This isn't an issue with "who they are" rather than an issue of balance.
You all need to learn to give up things that you like (e.g. - your own class being overpowered in a certain area) in favor of balance. Without doing so, this game will never reach its full potential.
--Stryfe
Spelling > Me
The majority of this problem lies with the netcode. However, giving APUs LoS would also help with this issue. Some people may say that monks should be able to hit people without LoS because "that's the way they are." I call bullshit. This isn't an issue with "who they are" rather than an issue of balance.
You all need to learn to give up things that you like (e.g. - your own class being overpowered in a certain area) in favor of balance. Without doing so, this game will never reach it's full potential.
--Stryfe
Fianly some one that can see its unbalenced. God seeing how many ppl think its fine that apus can kill some one like that makes me sick.
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