View Full Version : hhhmmm pe/ppu stuff
enigma_b17
03-02-05, 23:22
Im just wondering if mr nidhogg can pose a question to the development team or what not, simlpy put are there any plans to
1- Give PE's something, either return partial stealth or give them a new toy (a friend, /me points at comie, pointed out that pes do deserve to have something extra)??
2- I really hope there are plans to fix the ppu rare pool. Now that the Holy Catharsis Sanctum and the Holy Antipoison Sanctum ave been removed (the only 2 really useful ones I might add, and no Holy True Sight Sanctum is not useful unless ur in a small little room with one door) ppus have been left with no rares what so ever bar holy para, which I now refuse to use on the grounds that my char transfer was buggered up.
Anyway thats it,
begin criticism ;)
hmm, ppus are only class that uses normally-built items instead of rares - I consider that as a positive aspect, not negative. Besides, ppu can't hunt on his own, so it might be better to keep them independent from rares : D
BTW, wanna buy my 5-slotted holy heals ? : PP
enigma_b17
04-02-05, 00:50
ok i know that ppus use normal "weapons" more then any other class, but its still nice to be able to have a "super weapon which has enhanced abilities is all i r saying
o and i ave 3 already :P
Ozambabbaz
04-02-05, 00:52
i got one; remove PPUs and PEs won't need anything 8| :eek: :)
QuantumDelta
04-02-05, 03:11
Trudat.
I'd still rather fix the monk class than destroy half of it though :p
Dribble Joy
04-02-05, 03:13
I'd gladly 'give back' stealth to PEs if it wasn't so terribly unbalanced.
Spies shouldn't have it in the state it's in now.
I was generally of the opinion that ppus should just be got rid of, but with everyone a combat char, NC would be one step closer to an fps. Fixing shouldn't be too hard either, just would take a leap of faith on KK's behalf.
I dont think us ppus need a rare actually. and super spell for a ppu, do you want to see nerf whine and boho I obar pvpz0r dood cant jadajadajada nerf ppu cause jadajadajada threads 100 times per day again :)? No thanks I take what we have now and just use them as it is.
Oh and for Pe's well they can have something fun to play with sure, but not a lame fucking stealth tool. MABY if they put in a cool down after 3 uses or something so the stealth is used for attacking once and flee once kinda tool. not the lameass way it's used now in the hands of spies.
Clownst0pper
04-02-05, 04:55
What is wrong with TSS?
You boot it up, parashock your target (or damage boost them) and run next to them, switch to first person, follow the cloud if they loose the shock/db and there always going down.
Just takes some skill...
and as for catharsis and anti poison S, Ive wanted those removed for ages, it was a noob weapon, and allowed for the overpowered PPU to become an even harder unit.
Im just wondering if mr nidhogg can pose a question to the development team or what not, simlpy put are there any plans to
1- Give PE's something, either return partial stealth or give them a new toy (a friend, /me points at comie, pointed out that pes do deserve to have something extra)??
2- I really hope there are plans to fix the ppu rare pool. Now that the Holy Catharsis Sanctum and the Holy Antipoison Sanctum ave been removed (the only 2 really useful ones I might add, and no Holy True Sight Sanctum is not useful unless ur in a small little room with one door) ppus have been left with no rares what so ever bar holy para, which I now refuse to use on the grounds that my char transfer was buggered up.
Anyway thats it,
begin criticism ;)
1) PEs are fine. People just started crying when they suddenly lost their stealth. Lowtech Pes can get amazing resists, Hitech PEs can use and cap every gun there is. HC/MC PEs are even better, they excel tanks. Not in damage output, but in resists by far. And dont forget, PEs can use DB...
2) The ppu rare pool. Those 2 rare spells have been removed because they made ppus invulnerable and leveling a joke. I agree on the HTTS issue, its shit.
Apart from that, ask someone else. I hate ppus. They ruin the fun, remove skill, destroy pvp.
Clownst0pper
04-02-05, 05:47
1) PEs are fine. People just started crying when they suddenly lost their stealth. Lowtech Pes can get amazing resists, Hitech PEs can use and cap every gun there is. HC/MC PEs are even better, they excel tanks. Not in damage output, but in resists by far. And dont forget, PEs can use DB...
2) The ppu rare pool. Those 2 rare spells have been removed because they made ppus invulnerable and leveling a joke. I agree on the HTTS issue, its shit.
Apart from that, ask someone else. I hate ppus. They ruin the fun, remove skill, destroy pvp.
A tank should always win against a melee PE, its a fucking shit tank if they dont
Hightech PE's defence sucks, and they cant cap "every gun" id like to see them cap a first love, I only ever capped my PE's first love with a rifle 3, and even then it wasnt ROF
DB is fine if you get the jump on the person, otherwise its a waist of time casting it, as anyone whos interested in going PVP longterm always pack ADB
Lowtechs might have amazing resists but there dmg output sucks.
I'd gladly 'give back' stealth to PEs if it wasn't so terribly unbalanced.
Spies shouldn't have it in the state it's in now.
I was generally of the opinion that ppus should just be got rid of, but with everyone a combat char, NC would be one step closer to an fps. Fixing shouldn't be too hard either, just would take a leap of faith on KK's behalf.
This is hard. I dont think PEs need more defenses. A PE can do everything. And he can do it fine. If he wants to use high end guns, he has got to sacrifice his resists. Fine by me. A PE fully caps in one day.
There is no need to improve PEs, there is just spies with stealth overpowering them, there is APUs that dont need a fucking LoS to hit, theres PPUs fucking over everything.
It`s not PEs being shit, its the other classes being way too important.
/edit
Clownstopper if you are talking to me, leave it. Youre on my ignore list, tell someone else.
Clownst0pper
04-02-05, 06:02
/edit
Clownstopper if you are talking to me, leave it. Youre on my ignore list, tell someone else.
haha thats the funniest thing ive ever read I dont even know who you are and im on your ignore list! Winnar! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
@ enigma, I agree, PE's need something, they have for a long time, although I have always felt they are best suited to being vehicle oritentated...
Dr Strange
04-02-05, 06:55
Personallly I agree, ppu's got jacked for rares.
I was never around for the rare sanctums other than True Sight. Holy Catharasis is a joke, almost 250 psi to cast and its slow as hell even with capped frequencies. For fire you can just shelter and heal, for para a decent anti para is better, only thing catharasis is good for is poison and thats just because anti poison only removes one stack not all.
A rare heal spell would be nice. Or rare spells that don't need a specific target but can be cast on anyone TEAMED with you. (i hate group spells cause their radius is SMALL, they can target anyone with no LE and they aren't as powerful). Rare buffs that can't be anti buffed.
1) PE's are a toy class, rendered useless by PPU's at Op wars, rendered useless by Spies for any kind of covert / solo work. People say Pe's are fine but truthfully how many of you play one as a primary character day to day when you have a capped tank/spy/apu?
They need at least to be able to drive all vehicles (drive, not shoot) easily, and, considering the number of gifts and tweaks the spy has had for Neocron (Hacknet, Drone week, Stealth, great looking PA) its time KK gave something back. Am seriously considering deleting my 4 year old PE to make an apu....
2) Glad PPUs don't have so many rares, as its one less headache to replace if they drop in a belt zone. Also easier to get better slotted non-rare spells. Also, if you look at the number of spells a PPU carries, they have quite a lot to play with don't they.
Bugs Gunny
04-02-05, 12:03
I play my HC PE more than i play my capped HC tank now.
They are soo much fun to play.
Would be fun to get something special for pe's as right now the only usefull gun is a TPC. I've tried everything else. Speedgat is too much of a staminadrain, TL81 plasma wave... a joke. Tangent epic cannon ok, but TPC better, and the TL70 flamethrower..... I gave that away.
Would be nice if ppu's were deleted
haha thats the funniest thing ive ever read I dont even know who you are and im on your ignore list! Winnar! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[...]
HA HA!
He hates me more than you, but I'm not on his ignorelist!
I WIN!
1) PE's are a toy class, rendered useless by PPU's at Op wars, rendered useless by Spies for any kind of covert / solo work. People say Pe's are fine but truthfully how many of you play one as a primary character day to day when you have a capped tank/spy/apu?
I do for example ... just look at my Sig, three of those are PEs ... most of the time i play the Pistol one, then the HC one and the poor Rifle-PE gets the least attention ... i prefer my PEs over my APU/PPU/HC/MC/Droner anytime ... except in opfights :rolleyes:
and that`s what sucks
Miss Naughty
04-02-05, 13:52
I love my lo-tech rifle PE, I just wish that the Termi did more damage and I had more agil / athl. If you can get the jump on someone and get a few stacks of x-ray in I stand half a chance.
Best class for PvM in my opinion though, completely self sufficient and cheap to maintain. Choice of weapons is limited though, its really annoying that snipers are high tech weapons.
Monolithic
04-02-05, 14:19
I remember waaaay back in NC1. SXR at one time was a clan almost entirely composed of PEs. Fighting them was kinda an odd experience. At first sight they seemed to be running around like headless chickens. High-speed movement and running all over the place at random.
Then suddenly a Turret would appear, PEs running behind and all over. Trying to target them was a nightmare. They effectively drew their line of control with turrets. If they were winning they would usually end up squashing the entire attacking clan in the OPs control room, taking turns to run in and out wearing down the attackers.
People used to go crazy about the 'unfair' way they fought. I recall my clan leader saying to me that he didn't understand why people complained; they are PEs, they can't fight like Tanks and Monks so they fight the way that works for PEs.
This was before the days of stealth, so it can still work :) Just get some old-time SXR members to spill their PE OP war secrets ;)
I'd gladly 'give back' stealth to PEs if it wasn't so terribly unbalanced.
Spies shouldn't have it in the state it's in now.
I was generally of the opinion that ppus should just be got rid of, but with everyone a combat char, NC would be one step closer to an fps. Fixing shouldn't be too hard either, just would take a leap of faith on KK's behalf.
Dribble's right, Stealth is a tool used to ESCAPE battle when your outnumbered or gunned etc, now it's being used as a weapon you do some damage, run, heal return do some more etc etc, all spies do it stealth now because they are too weak to fight in close combat with tanks and pe's apus etc. but the point is they where never ment to, the idea of spies is that they are "spies" intelliegence gatherers, hackers, trade skillers, not hard core close combat fighters.
I don't think PE's should have stealth (although if they did I'd use it) I think that stealth needs a draw back, like a limit on the time you can use it, for example a 30 second cap inbetween stealthing. Or if you use it a few times you get a drug flash, after all it works like a drug. And i have noticed with my spy if you use it alot you do get a mild flash but nothing to worry about.
Or if you use it a few times you get a drug flash, after all it works like a drug.
Continual stealthing does give drugflash. :)
Another sad thread
Of the private eye's lament
Weep for the modern bards
enigma_b17
04-02-05, 15:43
"Just get some old-time SXR members to spill their PE OP war secrets"
dont think well be doin that :p, theyr called secrets for reasons that are not know even to us
Sure some of you use a PE as primary but you are in a tiny minority, and thats for a reason.
The PE used to be more competitive in Neocron for 2 reasons:
1) The weapons were stronger before Cursed Soul and Devourer got boosted for ages. Holy Lightning is different because its gone up and down over time.
2) Back in Neocron 1 PE's were competitive because people were still levelling and learning the game rules, it was only later that everyone one capped and specialised, bringing the innate strength of Tanks and APUs to the fore in fights (because all fights end up in a dance of death). Spies were even shitter of course, but Stealth and Droning has helped them become a valid character on the battlefield.
enigma_b17
04-02-05, 15:46
i know one giblet who still uses it as a main cha
/me points at chosen
Clownst0pper
04-02-05, 16:00
HA HA!
He hates me more than you, but I'm not on his ignorelist!
I WIN!
Oh thats a shame, your missing out...Who is he?
PPU's don't need deleteing, KK just need to remove foreign cast shelter & deflector and the problem will be solved... PE's can shelt themselves (their special thing) and don't PPU's have too many spells already, I hear it's hard to get them all on the qbelt without leaving a few out.
Well said Selendor :)
I'm not pointing fingers or giving orders or anything here, but this is how i see it.
PE's have always been thought of and made to be a versatile class that uses everything. Their higher PSI level gives them the huge advantage of damage boosts in duels and S/Ds for themselves. They have more toys than any other class if you ask me, i'd hate to decide what i'd put in a PEs quickbelt :confused: everything is so useful!! :P
I do think taking stealth off them completely was harsh though, maybe if they had stealth 1 on them, i remember fighting at MB with PEs who had just stealth one, they were 'trackable' if you know what you're doing, but it also saves their ass when things are looking bad. Stealth 2 on a PE was more annoying, because that was getting into a Spies job. PEs are good at using a range of things to their advantage, just like they use the first few rares from Pistol and Rifle class, i think stealth 1 should be thrown their way again.
PPUs are an endangered species it seems :eek: I can't argue with their class at all, they add so much depth to OP fights and everywhere else, i can't even imagine it if they were to go. I think some people forget, PPUs are APUs opposites, an APU has no way of sustaining himself other than to kill their target quicker than they can kill him/her, which is what they're good at. Whereas PPUs can do nothing BUT sustain themselves. I think the big grudge against PPUs are mostly from the people who either can't be bothered to make one theirselves / they're too selfish to even think of playing a support role / they just can't stand when their one character can't kill a PPU by theirself. That was a little off topic but it applies to the PPU class, with Catharsis sanct and Poison sanct gone they took a big hit, they were overpowered before with them though, i can't argue with that. It's hard to think of any toys for PPUs though o_O maybe one of those 'flashang' spells could be put in, as suggested in another PPU topic thread.
enigma_b17
04-02-05, 16:11
PPU's don't need deleteing, KK just need to remove foreign cast shelter & deflector and the problem will be solved... PE's can shelt themselves (their special thing) and don't PPU's have too many spells already, I hear it's hard to get them all on the qbelt without leaving a few out.
removing foreign cast shields would not work, theyr fine as they are lol, apart from the rare pool depletion.
PE's are like the perfect hybrid, they have the ability to do loads of damage, not to mention damage boosting, and they also can heal and shield themselves. And if u say pes are useless thats not true, ive seen a good few of them take on people and win easily, all they need is something extra to boost their effectiveness at op wars, whether it be to give them back stealth 1 or as i said before a new tool of some sort like comies seraphim pa or what not
As for ppus belts its the same for every class nearly, its just more apparent for ppus
Oh thats a shame, your missing out...Who is he?
Dunno, he dislikes me since me and some others were PKing on Uranus with our n00bchars.
Clownst0pper
04-02-05, 16:32
Dunno, he dislikes me since me and some others were PKing on Uranus with our n00bchars.
Still got it then ;) :lol:
Dribble Joy
04-02-05, 17:15
Hightech PE's defence sucks, and they cant cap "every gun" id like to see them cap a first love, I only ever capped my PE's first love with a rifle 3, and even then it wasnt ROF
Depends on what gun.
Judge/RoG setups are defensively pretty much equal to that of a low techer, if they are willing to use ppr and moveon.
Even a RoLH user can get very good resists with just a moveon.
1) PE's are a toy class, rendered useless by PPU's at Op wars, rendered useless by Spies for any kind of covert / solo work. People say Pe's are fine but truthfully how many of you play one as a primary character day to day when you have a capped tank/spy/apu?
I do for a start. The PE is rendered useless in an OP war only if he doesn't have a ppu himself. What's the difference between a tank with ppu and a PE with ppu? Granted, without one they don't survive an op war because their stealth was taken away. With stealth, they used to be able to "hold their own" with their own buffs, leaving the ppu free to babysit a more fragile class.
They can still take part in a fun fight if the enemy team has no ppus. Only the other day, our outpost was under attack from some wannabe ninjas, two tanks and a spy. I went in to defend on my own, had a fight with one of the tanks but got killed. One of our apus came online, so we paired up, i gave him some basic buffs and after waiting for SI, we both rushed them. (Yay for the implant drop bug :) )
It was 2 of us versus 3 of them. I finished off the tank i started earlier, but got killed again. Another SI trip later, we finished the job. Both tanks dead and no more spy. Not a ppu in sight. The OP is still ours :)
That little event taught me just how much i undervalued my PE in team combat. Not once during the fight did i wish i had stealth, although if i had it, i may not have died those two times.
I still think stealth is an invaluable passive tool to get out of trouble when you're not looking for it. In NC1 it saved my ass a few times when i got jumped by a gang while i was hunting alone.
Even if we only get stealth 1 back, i'll be grateful for small mercies. Give us our stealth back, please. :D
My god, you PE's are a bunch of wusses! Spies go into op wars with less defenses than a PE. Seems to me that the PE class is full of people who want the strength and con of a tank, the psi of a monk and the dex and int of a spy.
Why should PEs get to use a sniper rifle? They've got enough defenses to go up close and personal - I know spies braver than you lot.
As for hacknet, as far as I'm aware you can comfortably create a hacknet PE, who, tho not able to get 100 INT and DEX could spec more health (and apparently energy resist also helps) than a spy. Hell, if any of you actually was brave enough to try I bet you'd be able to nearly cap hacknet software and still have better defenses than a Spy in hacknet.
As for driving, there's not that much a driver PE can't drive AND gun. There's maybe 2 or 3 vehicles in all that a dedicated driver couldn't drive. Plus you get atleast one toy in this category, the Advanced Assault Glider, that even a totally dedicated driver spy probably couldn't obtain the strength for.
You lot had stealth for a short while and you became total stealth whores to the point that when it was taken out, the vast majority couldn't survive PvP anymore, whine endlessly on the forums, then rerolled to monks or tanks.
Yes, many spies may be stealth whores, but we don't have the strength or con of a PE, we don't have the armour. As a spy, if you get caught by the enemy, they generally close to fast for you to get off any killing shot (if you're a sniper - and assuming you actually see the one who sees you, otherwise you probably never know what hit you as you're dead by the time you know anything's up).
HTSS DOES work against spies. It limits where we can move greatly. We can't shortcut across it. If we've been caught and para'd, db'd, FA'd or anything else that shows where we go, we're generally helpless - the PPU can come to use, uncover us, then the rest of the part (generally not too far away) finish us off.
And if you don't like stealth because as a sniper spy I'll stealth when you see me and change my position - well tough - that's what snipers do. As explained above, if we don't move - if we don't see you coming - we're generally dead by the time we know anything's up. A few bursts from a CS or a small chain of Holy Lightning and we're done for. Spies are low con, low strength (low armour) units that sneak in, try to do as much damage as possible, then run the hell away before we get killed. A pistol spy can use the lower level stealths to give small short attacks, while a rifle spy will use the long duration stealths to shift position.
My 0.02
Athon Solo
Plus you get atleast one toy in this category, the Advanced Assault Glider, that even a totally dedicated driver spy probably couldn't obtain the strength for.
And how is a PE supposed to use it ? I bet lots of PEs are awaiting your answer on that one now :p
(only works with drugs ... for PE _AND_ Spy)
And how is a PE supposed to use it ? I bet lots of PEs are awaiting your answer on that one now :p
(only works with drugs ... for PE _AND_ Spy)
OK. An error in my calculations. My point is that the amount of stuff you have access to and the number of options you have still isn't anything to whine about tho. As a PE you can be half decent in heavy, melee, pistols, rifles, hacking and still have generally good defenses in terms of PPUing yourself.
A PE's "toy", IMHO, is the fact that they can be fairly decent in just about any field. They are a "jack of all trades". If you want to hihgly specialise in rifles, then don't choose a PE, use a spy. If you want to highly specialise in H-C or M-C, then choose a tank. For god's sake don't choose a PE, knowing full well that it's got lower caps than the specialist classes and then whine about it.
You don't hear monks whining about the fact that they don't have enough strength? Or tanks whining about their lack of INT? or Spies whining about their lack of PSI? We make do and get the hell on with it.
You PE players choose a "jack of all trades" class, then go and whine about how you can't specialise in anything.
Athon Solo
Clownst0pper
05-02-05, 05:15
Spies go into op wars with less defenses than a PE.
Thats the biggest pile of shit ive ever heard, my spy goes into an OP war with tank resists, if not better than 99% of tanks resists..
and no dont say "thats bollocks"; im fed up of bringing out my setups to show people whats possible with a single heat 3 and drug abuse.
QuantumDelta
05-02-05, 06:45
JOAT = Doesn't exist in Neocron.
It's not allowed to exist.
A JOAT is something multi-skills -- a PE is not _ALLOWED_ to be multi-skilled.
It does draw on multiple skill lines are lower levels to compensate for overly crapness in others.
What you would notice, is that in other MMOs and RPGs JOATs have higher skill caps and suchlike, in terms of general skills, so they can attribute skills into more than one place.
In Neocron, there is no such thing.
What's more specialisation utterly destroys any chance of being anything other than 'cookie' -- you ain't one of the cookie setups for each flavour of PE? You ain't drugging your ass off?
You ain't worth crap.
PEs stretch so much just to be competitive.
Same as Monks.
That stretch shouldn't be there.
Nor should be the very high end imbalance that is possible with a lot of stretching.
Therefore, mediate it a little bit, but for god sakes people need to stop with the JOAT crap ...
Edit; Important part
At the end of the day, the PE is rendered useless in an op war because he loses out on the only slight reason why a non-drug abusing PE is 'average' to 'good' in 1on1 PvP with most classes.
The Defence Bonus gained from PE buffs is actually acting against the PE.
Because 1on1 -- the PE buffed, is balanced.
At an op, where all have PPU buffs, the PE actually loses a great deal of resistance percentage in comparison to other players.
It seems, however, most people forget this, and assume they'll see a PE doing _even better_ than when dueling, in terms of defence.
Well, they wont.
The PEs are specialised to crap, they can only do one thing, and, guess what? they can't even do that well.
Duel.
Thats the biggest pile of shit ive ever heard, my spy goes into an OP war with tank resists, if not better than 99% of tanks resists..
and no dont say "thats bollocks"; im fed up of bringing out my setups to show people whats possible with a single heat 3 and drug abuse.
tis true if u know what ur doing spies have the best con set up in game
ok i know that ppus use normal "weapons" more then any other class, but its still nice to be able to have a "super weapon which has enhanced abilities is all i r saying
o and i ave 3 already :P
its already monkocron2 now.. PPUs dont need rares, if u die from poison then tbh cast a frigging haz3 in stead of a heat3 (some ppus actually use heat3... :wtf: ).
PEs dont need stealth. it takes time to make ur PE good, unless u already have a kickass setup. PEs can solo any class.. a good PE can take down an APU/PPU combo, if u take the time and effort of making a good setup and train.
Clownst0pper
05-02-05, 18:04
its already monkocron2 now.. PPUs dont need rares, if u die from poison then tbh cast a frigging haz3 in stead of a heat3 (some ppus actually use heat3... :wtf: ).
PEs dont need stealth. it takes time to make ur PE good, unless u already have a kickass setup. PEs can solo any class.. a good PE can take down an APU/PPU combo, if u take the time and effort of making a good setup and train.
Once again, a silly statement...
Any class can solo any class.
and a good PE cannot take down a good apu/ppu combo, you are living in a dream world.
PEs dont need stealth. it takes time to make ur PE good, unless u already have a kickass setup. PEs can solo any class.. a good PE can take down an APU/PPU combo, if u take the time and effort of making a good setup and train.
not unless the PPU is only packing a TL3 heal, misses his fire button alot or is on a mixture of 15 hardcore drugs...
Clownst0pper
05-02-05, 18:26
not unless the PPU is only packing a TL3 heal, misses his fire button alot or is on a mixture of 15 hardcore drugs...
:lol:
NO honest venner, a PE can pwn a PPU/APU combo with EASE...I just havnt found out how..
Thats the biggest pile of shit ive ever heard, my spy goes into an OP war with tank resists, if not better than 99% of tanks resists..
and no dont say "thats bollocks"; im fed up of bringing out my setups to show people whats possible with a single heat 3 and drug abuse.
Exactly my point. If a Spy only has 40 CON and 40 STR, while a PE has 60 STR and 65 CON, surely can't the PE get better defenses without even resorting to drugs? Plus they get shelter without even having to try.
Athon Solo
Once again, a silly statement...
Any class can solo any class.
and a good PE cannot take down a good apu/ppu combo, you are living in a dream world.
half the PPUs these days are stupid to enough to get noobbuffed.
i know at least 2 PEs who can take down a apu/ppu combo
(i never said a GOOD apu/ppu combo)
hell ive seen a ppu (he claims hes good) taken down by healing light, no noobbuffs/heals involved, not even a dmgboost
(yes, ppu had shelter on, his own shelter)
my "silly statement" was about ppl whining (saying) that PEs need a new toy, or a boost because theyre "underpowered".
thats what my statement is about, they arent underpowered.
any class can solo any class? love to see ppu vs ppu :rolleyes:
Clownst0pper
05-02-05, 18:51
Exactly my point. If a Spy only has 40 CON and 40 STR, while a PE has 60 STR and 65 CON, surely can't the PE get better defenses without even resorting to drugs? Plus they get shelter without even having to try.
Athon Solo
Ive attached my Private Eye's setup
Ive also attached my Spys setup.
As you can see, there is very little difference.
the PE has more poison resist, less combat effectiveness, my spy has low poison resist, far more combat ability (obviously including shelter and hacking abilitys of a high level)
half the PPUs these days are stupid to enough to get noobbuffed.
i know at least 2 PEs who can take down a apu/ppu combo
(i never said a GOOD apu/ppu combo)
hell ive seen a ppu (he claims hes good) taken down by healing light, no noobbuffs/heals involved, not even a dmgboost
(yes, ppu had shelter on, his own shelter)
When making class comparisons for balance you have to realise it has to be a PE versus an APU/PPU combo of EQUAL skill. Not a PE versus a half arsed PPU with shit gear and an uncapped APU.
[edit] Spy on the left, PE setup on the right
half the PPUs these days are stupid to enough to get noobbuffed.
Nib-Buffs are exploiting game mechanics in a way they were not intended imho
In other MMORPGs (like the crappy WoW) higher buffs override lower ones ... i just hope this gets fixed soon :rolleyes:
But you are right, most PPUs go down fast with nib-buffs ... most don`t realize that you have to start casting your buffs when the debuff is still running ...
@Clownstopper
Inq4 Helmet, Duranium 3 Trousers on the PE ? Yeah ... right ...
Clownst0pper
05-02-05, 19:19
.
@Clownstopper
Inq4 Helmet, Duranium 3 Trousers on the PE ? Yeah ... right ...
Apologies, the skill manager has been altered so many times, that drugs drop off it.
Yes it is perfectly possible, but like I say, I am a complete drug abuser, raising a PE's strength to easily 80.
Which IIRC is more than enough for both. I will look into it once again but im more than positive, either way, lowering the inq4 helmet to inq 3 is still stupidly good defence.
[edit] revised to make it 100% acceptable, so to avoid quibbles.
Jesterthegreat
05-02-05, 23:10
Im just wondering if mr nidhogg can pose a question to the development team or what not, simlpy put are there any plans to
1- Give PE's something, either return partial stealth or give them a new toy (a friend, /me points at comie, pointed out that pes do deserve to have something extra)??
hope not. they dont need it.
2- I really hope there are plans to fix the ppu rare pool. Now that the Holy Catharsis Sanctum and the Holy Antipoison Sanctum ave been removed (the only 2 really useful ones I might add, and no Holy True Sight Sanctum is not useful unless ur in a small little room with one door) ppus have been left with no rares what so ever bar holy para, which I now refuse to use on the grounds that my char transfer was buggered up.
welcome to the club. tanks have 2 decent DD rares (i dont consider a dev decent due to whiners getting it nerfed instead of actually speccing poison). pistols? why use most when exec is best, followed by slasher. rifles? HL or SH for most... with termi for amusement factor. melee? PoB and thunderbolt.
PPU's hardly need more stuff anyway... they need fixing ffs.
Anyway thats it,
begin criticism ;)
rogerthat
Whew, we've all been down this road so many times, I'm just going to do this in short form:
Player skill - unquantifiable and totally irrelevant. Put someone like Carinth (PPU) up against someone who has never played a computer game before but given a PPU to play, and I'm willing to bet Carinth will finish the other guy off with just his bare hands and maybe the lowest level soul cluster*. Anyone can beat anyone else if the difference in skill is enough, but you cant measure that, so it's completely moot.
Requirement for skill to play class - People like QD and Vet have said this a million times, and far more eloquently than I'm about to. Why should a class have a supposed "requirement" that a player is "hardcore" and must "put the effort in" just to be as excel as well as another class in their own specialisation? It shouldn't. This is blatantly a class balance issue. Getting a warm and fuzzy feeling because you have a competitive PE setup means you might deserve a pat on the back, but doesn't delude yourself into thinking the class is fine.
Drugs - If you think including drugs in a PE's setup is viable, then fine, it's viable in everyone elses setup too. I did some calculations in excel a few months back, working out how much each class gains by using drugs (and therefore meeting the requirements to use better items). Guess what? The PE and the Spy top that chart, and are almost identical. Include it in an argument if you like, but don't ignore the facts. Take a look at Clownstoppers setups above, or try it out yourself.
JOAT - Just go and re-read what QD said. Regardless of the way KK "marketed" the PE, it is not a JOAT, because a JOAT can not exist in a system where specialisation is a requirement, not an option. To those of you who would say that they know a PE who can do X,Y and Z (or who have such a PE themselves), I say "yay you!".. but you're not a JOAT. You're the victim of a bad class idea. A JOAT must be able to use all his skills (drawn from a complete pool of everyone elses skills, none of which are meant to be individually as good as a specialised skill user) together AT THE SAME TIME to give him an EQUAL chance against another class using it's specialised skill. For a JOAT to be able to exist in NC, he must be able to hit a target at long range with a rifle to weaken his opponent until he can get to cannon range. Should the opponent draw a melee weapon, the JOAT should be able to effectively defend himself with a pistol or melee weapon of his own and be reasonably agile. During this time, he should have enough defensive capability to patch himself up or shield himself to reduce the damage he takes. ALL OF THAT should make him an even fight for any other class while they are using their primary skill. Does that sound like NC to you? No it doesnt.
PE's and toys - Do they really, really need them? Kind of. If the PE really is meant to be a JOAT, then it would never need it's own toys.. instead it should be able to use the less effective versions of everyone elses. If the PE is a complete class of it's own, then no, it does not NEED them. It does make the class boring, however. Each of us pay money to play this game, and we all like to see new things added to our line up. This isn't some offline, release-and-forget kind of game, we expect more content. Content for everyone, and also content for us. Every class is getting, or has had content for them, but at drastically different rates. I would argue that the PE is due for some neat things to do, then monks, then tanks. Spy's are at the bottom of the list right now, what with all the new gear they have had lately.
* Though in fairness to Carinth, he's much more likely to teach the new guy how to play and be a good PPU ;)
Apologies over any misunderstandings over my definition of a JOAT in this case. I was trying to say that a PE can be good (but not as good, in terms of obtaining the highest weapons atleast, as a specialist) at any one of the widest skills available to any class (they can specialise in either any tradeskill, pistols, rifles, drones, heavy combat, melee, aggressive or defensive psi (granted I don't think I've ever seen an APU PE, but I bet there's one somewhere), and still have a decent chance at defeating an opponent in a duel), not that they could do them all at once.
Erm, I hope that's not too confusing. If it is, just forget I ever mentioned the phrase "jack of all trades" - I've made a ntoe myself not to mention it again here :wtf:
Athon Solo
QuantumDelta
06-02-05, 01:40
Better :p
FYI:
I have a mixed oppinion of drugs.
Without drugs, PEs and Spies would be boned, even in the 1on1 turf.
Athon: You seem to fail to realise:
The PEs are 'somewhat' balanced, towards 1on1s with say... Tanks.
That includes the Resistance Bonus gained from Shelter.
Now.
At an op war, a tank GAINS that resistance bonus and RETAINS his significantly higher damage.
the PE gains next-to-nothing and will quite often not gain attack, either.
Therefore the PE is 30% underpowered compared to a 1on1 balance situation at an op war -- this is simple math.
Spies are somewhat the same HOWEVER Spies will, 99% of the time have higher damage than PEs at an op war where DAMAGE is what counts.
Damage, vs PPU ability.
Which area does the PE Lack most in?
Oh yea.
So that leaves the PE to fill in specialised rolls, like what you say?
Hack.
Damage Boost.
.....Noob Buff?
Great, my char attends an op war to take stress away from a PPU by doing the DB for him - and is the best non-monk noob buffer there?
:o - Pro.
Clownst0pper
06-02-05, 05:24
I did some calculations in excel a few months back, working out how much each class gains by using drugs (and therefore meeting the requirements to use better items). Guess what? The PE and the Spy top that chart, and are almost identical. Include it in an argument if you like, but don't ignore the facts. Take a look at Clownstoppers setups above, or try it out yourself.
I have always and will always use drugs, the positives far outweight the negatives. I urge anyone to use drugs, but of course you must be prepared for high maintenance.
I totally agree that PE's and spys come out on top. I have to admit though, as I always plug. Spys are the top. They have stealth, and can fully cap there weapons..
Regardless of con, if you fully cap your weapons, combined with the ability to kite a player, they are going down. Coupled with stupidly high resists and hack ability and there is no doubt a PE is pointless.
Drugs = the win
Which area does the PE Lack most in?
I would have thought QD by now you would have learnt enough to stop asking this question. The private eye hasnt changed, it wont change. The only thing that has altered is their removal of stealth ability.
Its about time the community realised how shit they are instead of uttering the same points "Oh they can have good con"
So can every fucking class, good con doesnt make a good class.
well clownstopper, Qd and sigess are pretty much saying everything on my mind, im just shit getting it out lol....
so...yeah...hmm
Nib-Buffs are exploiting game mechanics in a way they were not intended imho
In other MMORPGs (like the crappy WoW) higher buffs override lower ones ... i just hope this gets fixed soon :rolleyes:
But you are right, most PPUs go down fast with nib-buffs ... most don`t realize that you have to start casting your buffs when the debuff is still running ...
half the time ive been noobbuffed i didnt zone or die, get ur own APU to antibuff u maybe?
noobbuffing isnt exploiting. PPUs can use the tl 25 shelter, just that its low lvl doesnt make it an exploit.
some PPUs, without being noobbuffed, are practically god.
the way it is now theres 2 ways to kill a good PPU
1) noobbuff
2) outnumber the PPU 10 to 1 (sounds familiar??)
devourer works on most PPUs, but wouldnt kill a good one.
if u really didnt like getting noobbuffed, u would've quit by now...
im not telling this to you alone elchi, im telling this to everyone.
stop whining bout noobbuffs.
if they fix that, than its only fair that KK should make it like this:
when you zone up from UG, u cant zone down for the next, lets say, 5 minutes.
this would make some clans actually fight, in stead of making it a zone-party.
its easy to avoid being noobbuffed, the problem is most PPUs dont know when to cast their buffs. you get noobbuffed = your own fault
noobbuffing isnt exploiting. PPUs can use the tl 25 shelter, just that its low lvl doesnt make it an exploit.
Allright, i take back the exploit, let`s just say it`s using the game mechanics in a way not intended, ok ? :)
if u really didnt like getting noobbuffed, u would've quit by now...
I don`t like beein noobbuffed, but i can usually avoid it so i don`t complain that much ... if i get noobbuffed i just sync into UG and let the buff run, your problem, you not getting a fight :P
Or i zone down, wait 10 seconds, go up and get an Antibuff from the enemies ... TYVM ! (hehe, i already did that soooooo often ;) )
Besides is that (making ppl quit) really what you want ? Make the playerbase even SMALLER ? Just think about that ...
(On the other hand i know what`s coming now and no, i don`t agree with zerg either, it`s the same shit ... you may not believe it but we get zerged alot too)
stop whining bout noobbuffs.
I`m not whining, i`m trying to argue in a discussion as i believe that most people here can behave as grown up persons ... it`s only a game :)
whine is "onoz u evil h4x0r nib-buffaged meh u suck tbh tbh"
I wonder if this is still ontopic ... if not, please let`s continue this in PM ;)
Jesterthegreat
06-02-05, 23:31
if they fix that, than its only fair that KK should make it like this:
when you zone up from UG, u cant zone down for the next, lets say, 5 minutes.
this would make some clans actually fight, in stead of making it a zone-party.
its easy to avoid being noobbuffed, the problem is most PPUs dont know when to cast their buffs. you get noobbuffed = your own fault
no comment on this bit eLcHi?
thats the bit i support most :D
no comment on this bit eLcHi?
thats the bit i support most :D
Reopen the underground IMO. I think op wars were more fun when it basically went in a cycle of one team defending and the other attacking until one team or the other gave up, with attacks generally happening in organised waves.
Athon Solo
no comment on this bit eLcHi?
I`m not sure how my opinion on this one is so i didn`t want to comment on that ...
Problem is that with the current netcode/syncing problems this has it`s pro and cons ... you know how often i hear "Long Sync, i`m gonna be dead" or "I crashed, fuck this" ? Itīs not amusing. Or the fact that the attackers can already target and shoot the person syncing up fine even tho he still got the nice black syncronizing screen. The Problem would be that if you take away the possibility of zoning right back down you should also give the people syncing up a certain time of invulnerability (or not beeing able to get targeted) to compensate for that ...
But that would suck too, wouldn`t you agree ?
On the other hand it sucks to fight zonewhores, i agree ... and i have yet to see a clan that doesn`t do it ... i mean, if you`re faced with the decision to die or sync i guess almost 95% of the players would choose to sync because survival is a natural instinct. So maybe the problem we are facing here lies with human evolution. I mean, let`s face it, after all we are only intelligent animals ... we feel the need for survival and i don`t think we will get rid of our primal instincts in the near future.
So if we want to find a solution to this problem (and it is one, i agree with you) we have to either find a way to take away the need for self preservation OR ... well, i have no idea, do you have one that`s fair for both sides ?
At the moment i think it`s pretty balanced because the attackers have to deal with the zoners and the defenders have to deal with syncs and fatals.
I think it`s pretty much even atm ... as sad as it is :(
Problem is that with the current netcode/syncing problems this has it`s pro and cons ... you know how often i hear "Long Sync, i`m gonna be dead" or "I crashed, fuck this" ?
The solution is to not zone as much, but hey?
Not to mention it happens to everyone.
Or the fact that the attackers can already target and shoot the person syncing up fine even tho he still got the nice black syncronizing screen. The Problem would be that if you take away the possibility of zoning right back down you should also give the people syncing up a certain time of invulnerability (or not beeing able to get targeted) to compensate for that ...
That works both ways, there a times when the people who are standing outside the UG (as an example) don't see the attacker/person who zoned even after they've fully zoned and not for a few seconds after that.
OPing is not really balanced atm due to the defending clan gaining almost an invulnerabilty. Though they are always in the dark about how many people are attacking, barrelling etc.
Nib buffs, shouldn't be removed, I'd hate to see that happen, IMO, this will just make the game even more ppu based. If I'm on (say my) tank and I see some enemy on lowish health not being healed, what do I do? Of course I tl 3 heal them so as the next ppu just can't outheal whatever damage I do to them. If I'm attacking someone and they're not being healed, the of course I'll tl 3 heal them. They're just some examples, and of course as Kopaka said, theres not very many other ways to kill a ppu short of 10 people or whatever.
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