Should parashock (for all weapons) be removed? [Archive]

Spermy

28-01-05, 17:30

Not gonna vote.

But, I don't quite care one way or the other about it.

Some thoughts to ponder though.

If para were removed, then all other freezes would be too, because it just wouldn't be fair.

Disagree - PPU, even shocked can still outlast any other class if he plays it right. he doesn't need to hit others unless he's buffing others, and even then they can stand in front of him - simple.

So, with the removal of all freeze effects (except mobs) there would have to be a runspeed nerf.
With that runspeed nerf, Monk's would have to have a reticle so they couldn't spam their HL's on slow moving targets.
If Monk's get reticles, every asshole and their brother would bitch about it.
Then, you'd lose all monks from the game.

No comment here due to previous statement.

... Yeah, get rid of freezes. :D :lol:

Monk para wouldn't be so bad if monks weren't as hard as they are now...

Still 50/50 on it tho...

Definitely agree with you that balancing after removal would be needed, just not as harsh as you stated.

giga191

28-01-05, 17:34

REMOVE IT. Para is a death sentence for anyone on the recieving end

LiL T

28-01-05, 17:34

Remove it from the gaurds then boost there damage by say 5 % :)

Spermy

28-01-05, 17:35

REMOVE IT. Para is a death sentence for anyone on the recieving end

Not true. But it is a lot more effective than other freezes, I think maybe if it was brought on par, or maybe given a higher casting cost...

Vanten

28-01-05, 17:37

Lower rate of fire, alot.

THE_TICK!!!!

28-01-05, 17:41

im gonna say leave it .....and figure out a way to work around it

Dribble Joy

28-01-05, 17:47

Not true. But it is a lot more effective than other freezes,
I assumed we were talking about all freezings?

And it is a death sentence.
The short moment that the drugs take to work is often more than enough to turn the fight to the other person.

We shouldn't have to be drugging like cheap hos anyway.

Para does not add to PvP, it does not make any more fun or enjoyable.
It only brings frustration and anger.

Nothing about anything.
Get rid of it.

retr0n

28-01-05, 17:52

Remove it. Remove all of them.

Capt. Rik

28-01-05, 17:53

Gotta say remove it. It's crap cos you've practically lost the fight once you've been hit by it

Serpent

28-01-05, 17:54

give holy para to requs 0psi 0 mst 0 ppu.

THE_TICK!!!!

28-01-05, 17:56

i thinik ppu para was orrigionally used for escape purposes...but one ppu alone isn't to much trouble do to the mana pool..its multiple ppu's that make it rough

Selendor

28-01-05, 18:07

Make the drugs cheaper to use, then it can be left. For me, para is another facet of combat skill, a fighter must learn to deal with being para'd, damage boosted, poisioned etc.

Or..you could assign hotkeys to your stacked anti-para drugs? Would be easier than loading into quickbelt all the time.

XenivouS

28-01-05, 19:18

para = glue and its gay imo I think it should be removed.

ROZZER187

28-01-05, 20:05

remove it or make it so it can only be cast on mobs, imo the only thing its good for is mobs.

if it cant be used on mobs eg mc5, doy tunnels remove it completely :o

Capt. Rik

28-01-05, 20:23

I think the poll speaks for itself...

extract

28-01-05, 20:30

DJs siggy says it all

remove it

DONT REDUCE ROF

get rid of it completely

@ tick - work around it? tell me something, other than just maybe you plain suck ass at PVP, what benefit has it brought you?(not intended as a flame, but you kinda did leave yourself open for that with that lame comment about working around it)

Jesterthegreat

28-01-05, 20:43

i would accept it being lowered to a freezer cannon level, and it only effecting runspeed... not turning speed.

however i voted remove it :p

Obsidian X

28-01-05, 20:48

I'm not sure how I feel about Para myself, maybe make Anti-para drugs cheap and readily available, as well as stacking, and bring back the cath sanctum..?

I dunno really. Abstain.

Capt. Rik

28-01-05, 21:04

I'm not sure how I feel about Para myself, maybe make Anti-para drugs cheap and readily available, as well as stacking, and bring back the cath sanctum..?

I dunno really. Abstain.
Drugs aren't stackable and take up a valuable slot in your quickbelt... it's just more of an inconvenience.

Plus iirc the drugs don't remove para once it's on you O_o

Dribble Joy

28-01-05, 21:05

Make the drugs cheaper to use, then it can be left. For me, para is another facet of combat skill, a fighter must learn to deal with being para'd, damage boosted, poisioned etc.
The drugs are not a solution.
They are a bad solution to a bad problem, just like spirit mods and PPUs.

Dealing with combat is complex and frustrating as it is. Para/freezing has no place in it.

Oh, and yeah, the sig says most of my other feelings.

landofcake

28-01-05, 21:51

i would accept it being lowered to a freezer cannon level, and it only effecting runspeed... not turning speed.

however i voted remove it :p

I agree with this, and hugely nerf the RoF of Holy Paralysis.

Also make it so we have an option against it, IE drugs that work and last for perhaps the same length of time as a shelter or deflector, or drugs that last for say the same time as a heal that stack.

Currently Anti-Para drugs are a joke ...

retr0n

28-01-05, 22:15

I agree with this, and hugely nerf the RoF of Holy Paralysis.

Also make it so we have an option against it, IE drugs that work and last for perhaps the same length of time as a shelter or deflector, or drugs that last for say the same time as a heal that stack.

Currently Anti-Para drugs are a joke ...

Sorry, but no, as DJ allready pointed out, drugs are a bad solution to a bad
problem.

I refuse to drug, I have never done it, and I most certanly (sp?) dont want to
be forcefed drugs in order to be able to fight without getting my ass ********** by
some nib and his ppu mother.

As long as para is ingame, people will use it, even if they are against it you are
at a disadvantage because "everyone else does it".

The only solution is to remove it, period. Either that or make it mob only. And
this _can_ be done, just look at the antivhc launcher. It does piss all damage
to anything besides vehicles so it's fully possible to give every char a hidden
resist for para so that players are not affected, but mobs/npc's are.

Remove it

Asurmen Spec Op

28-01-05, 22:20

Remove it is but a tool for the crappy PVPers(aka PPUs)

Zheo

28-01-05, 22:30

Get rid of it.

Aggreed, what I really hate is when some nameless ppu para's u then some big arse tank kills you, it's not like you'd have much of a chance vs a tank if they get the drop on you anyways (Rifle PE vs HC Tank).

Zheo

28-01-05, 22:37

The drugs are not a solution.
They are a bad solution to a bad problem, just like spirit mods and PPUs.

Dealing with combat is complex and frustrating as it is. Para/freezing has no place in it.

Oh, and yeah, the sig says most of my other feelings.

Drugs are needed because KK makes it so, if a PE wants to snipe with SH he'll need drugs, if he wants to use slasher etc he'll need drugs, basically unless a pe is low tech he'll need drugs.

Spy's need drugs for fire protection armour, shelter or both, because KK puts it in their reach if the use drugs they do... But think of it, if I couldnt use drugs to drugg up to hi tech weapons then i'd be pretty annoyed lol

retr0n

28-01-05, 22:47

Drugs are needed because KK makes it so, if a PE wants to snipe with SH he'll need drugs, if he wants to use slasher etc he'll need drugs, basically unless a pe is low tech he'll need drugs.

Spy's need drugs for fire protection armour, shelter or both, because KK puts it in their reach if the use drugs they do... But think of it, if I couldnt use drugs to drugg up to hi tech weapons then i'd be pretty annoyed lol

I believe DJ is refering to antishock drugs, and them being a bad solution to para,
not drugs in general.

Skusty

28-01-05, 23:58

I want para and CB rifle chock away

Jesterthegreat

29-01-05, 00:09

Aggreed, what I really hate is when some nameless ppu para's u then some big arse tank kills you, it's not like you'd have much of a chance vs a tank if they get the drop on you anyways (Rifle PE vs HC Tank).

while i agree on the ppu bit i qould like to point out (again) a rifle PE can do 100+ damage a shot to a well setup tank...

admittedly not if hes PPU buffed.

LOST

29-01-05, 00:23

the poll as stated by solo was "in all forms"......

given that i dont really care :) whatever.
would be nice if the guards hurt instead of glue though.

Monolithic

29-01-05, 02:48

Parashock - why do people hate it?
It took me a while to work it out. It was actually whilst playing a completely different game I realised.

Once you've been hit by parashock you are no longer playing.

Its as simple as that. "Zap" - voila - you're not playing anymore. That is why people get so angry and frustrated when they've been parashocked. You have lost control of your avatar and to all intents and purposes you no longer have control of your avatar's fate. In effect you've been disconnected, but you can still see what's happening.

This is why parashock type spells/weapons are not liked in single player games, but are absolutely hated in mmorgs.
And this is coming from a ex-hybrid who loved parashocking people :p

PPUs/Hybrids need an escape, but not at the expense of really pissing people off. PPU stealth has been discussed before. Maybe even PPU teleport.
Perhaps... The shit hits the fan - the PPU is outta there - zam - teleport! I'm sure some would complain about not killing the PPU... but fuck em.

Original monk

29-01-05, 03:55

removal of parashock ?

thats a long time ago i heard that :)

sultana

29-01-05, 04:19

Yeah, remove it in all its forms... frees up two slots in my ppu's quickbelt :)

The only thing is the guards all around the city sectors. I'd say remove alot of them and make them do the damage of a normal 120/120 mob. Or bring back the 80/80 plasma pistol CA guards :D

SypH

29-01-05, 04:24

The only reason I carry a para on my PPU for fights is because I know the enemy PPU's will use it on us, so not using it would put us at a disadvantage. I'd rather not use it, or have it used against me, cause it would clear up 2 quickbelt slots (para/anti para) and let the fight be decided by skills, not who can para first. I am all for para being removed in all its forms.

Asurmen Spec Op

29-01-05, 05:14

I know a way to make both ways happy ;)

make a psi 0 mst 0 ppu 0 spell
that has a 1hour last and makes you invunerable to para :P

Morganth

29-01-05, 06:47

Remove it.

Everyone uses it, so removing means nobody is loosing out. Melee shockers could then be turned into weps which do Energy/Xray damage perhaps so there isn't an imbalance in the number of TC MC rares.

Para's main use at the mo is taking PPUs down, as the enemy see it as an opportunity to make every shot count. An un-Para'd player/PPU is just that little bit harder to take out, but if you aim at the legs you can break them (doesn't matter for PPUs because of healage) which can cause a similar affect.

I completely agree with DJs sig.

LiL T

29-01-05, 08:45

Remove it its plain shit

oh and if you need a ppu to parra someone so that you can hit them, then perhapes you need to goto NeoFrag yeah and learn how to fucking PVP!!

No players would not need a runspeed nerf ....

Seven

29-01-05, 17:51

Can it, tired of "GlueOcron". :rolleyes: :)

mishkin

29-01-05, 18:38

Remove it totally, even the guards out so they all do about the same damage (preferrably guards with random weapons, ie some with flamers, other with gatlings and some with plasma-rifles)

Asurmen Spec Op

29-01-05, 19:51

Remove it totally, even the guards out so they all do about the same damage (preferrably guards with random weapons, ie some with flamers, other with gatlings and some with plasma-rifles) thats a great idea!
nothing like walking around a corner and see a CA guard with a flamer and going "oh snap"

Spermy

29-01-05, 20:01

Remove it totally, even the guards out so they all do about the same damage (preferrably guards with random weapons, ie some with flamers, other with gatlings and some with plasma-rifles)

Aye - But with CAREFUL placement of weapons.

No one wants instakilled Framerate because some idiot stuck flamer guards in plaza 1 :p

Miss Naughty

29-01-05, 20:13

Capt. Rik

29-01-05, 20:55

I'd like to see para changed slightly so that it has a slightly different effect. I think it should make debilitate the person shocked with the wobbly controls like drugs and booze give you, if only cos it would look funny.

Having some resistence to shocking would be nice, bring back psi resist?

Problem is that introducing the extra resist stat will totally un-balance things. The introduction of poison weapons (devourer, PoT etc.) already caused an argument over whether you had enough points to go around.

Because para is so strong, Resist PSI would be a practically compulsory stat requiring a fair ammount of points to be worthwhile

As I said earlier, the poll result speaks for itself... 70% (out of 90 voters) want para removed

Sigma

29-01-05, 21:15

The poll is biased.

There is a "No" and an "Abstain" option.

Tostino

29-01-05, 21:17

I would love it to be removed, OR you could change the anti para drug to a para resistance drug. 10 min of resistance for the highest lvl drug would be fine for me.

athon

29-01-05, 21:25

The poll is biased.

There is a "No" and an "Abstain" option.
Why does that make it biased?

In most polls there's an abstain option.

IMO it would be biased if you were forced to vote either yes or no.

The real reason I put abstain there is for people who don't like having to vote for an option they dont particularly want or hit the 'view results' link every time just to view the latest results.

Athon Solo

Sigma

29-01-05, 21:39

Why does that make it biased?[...]

Because I said so.

StrongSad

29-01-05, 22:11

^^^ OOoo Mommy is laying down the iron fist :lol:

I voted yes as always. Although it is futile to ever think KK would remove para altogether. They have it in their heads it will work and wont listen to the community NO MATTER WHAT. When everyone is gone I hope they realize how rediculous it was to keep para in for soo long.

SpitFire

29-01-05, 23:29

what about that...
anti para spell gets a tl between 0 and 10.. so every class can use it o_O

MrChumble

29-01-05, 23:56

LiL T

30-01-05, 00:14

The answer was yes two years ago, it was yes the last time it made me stop playing for two months, and it's yes now.

Will KK change it? No.

Heaven forbid common sense should interfere with their grand design. Exactly

I'm sick and tired now the sever is full of dicks that can't PvP they just use the PPU sick and tired of it and I think this lame shit has come from pluto tbh no offence

Xiphias

30-01-05, 00:34

nah keep it, makes things little harder... if you haven't got drugs or a PPU without anti para, you deserve it.

although i agree the mana required to cast it should be enlarged again, before crahn gloves you had to eat a a PSI booster to cast more than once, now with the enhanced PSI pool due to the crahn glove, PPU's can nowcast 2/3 Para's in a row, which is a little insane.

LiL T

30-01-05, 00:58

LOST

30-01-05, 01:46

there are ways around para though..no matter how you look at it.

i'm afraid i have more issue with people nib buffing. -that has only happened to me in nc2 O_o

mishkin

30-01-05, 03:17

i'm afraid i have more issue with people nib buffing.

Same here... People used to at least try fighting fair, but now it's all about winning at all costs...

I think para should be removed, and all high-level buffs should overrun the lower level ones... and everyone would be happy :angel:

Morganth

30-01-05, 05:00

although i agree the mana required to cast it should be enlarged again, before crahn gloves you had to eat a a PSI booster to cast more than once, now with the enhanced PSI pool due to the crahn glove, PPU's can nowcast 2/3 Para's in a row, which is a little insane.

This is correct, and it comes from a very accurate source. [ edited ]

Asurmen Spec Op

30-01-05, 06:02

This is correct, and it comes from a very accurate source. [ edited ] they use it about as much as NCAT, LAARD, UPS etc
this is about a gank tool not clans

sultana

30-01-05, 09:55

i'm afraid i have more issue with people nib buffing. -that has only happened to me in nc2 O_o
That really shouldn't be brought into this thread, but I will say this, nib buffing seems to be a very good counter balance against ppus, IMO they should not be practically invulnerable. Whenever we do fight FF, they generally do not nib buff :p :angel: most of the time's I've been antibuffed when I've got people to support I generally do no notice it, until they start hling me. Then it's basically, oh shit I don't got s/d, so I'll s/d myself and heal, by that time usually I've only got half my health gone so I'm right. However if I was nib buffed by them, I would be dead, that would be my fault for not paying more attention to myself.

they use it about as much as NCAT, LAARD, UPS etc
I've never once seen you fighting against NCAT (now uPs), that doesn't mean you haven't, however, I have fought alot with my clan, how would you know if we para, and how much? Generally when we raid CRP or whatever, either Ice (Kopaka) or myself will be the only PPU to support 3+ people, I think I've raided once together with both of us on our PPU's. I find it very hard to para even one person, when I have that many people to support.

In the odd chance that we do para in a fight, we don't para as much as FF do (nothing against FF in that respect). I'm not saying that we wouldn't like to para, as some of the people we fight run sooo damn fast, it's just that we don't have the time (or mana :rolleyes: ) to actually pull one off.

And once again, remove para on all weapons, balance the guards in whatever way (I'd like them going back to 80/80s). Then maybe anti-db might permanently find it's way into my belt :D Fight's without para, I would think, generally last longer and are better.

retr0n

30-01-05, 10:40

This is correct, and it comes from a very accurate source. [ edited ]

Dude, why dont you just go and quit this game. Your turning every thread into
a clan bashing thread, or should I say FF bashing thread. You must be very
frustrated all the time, just quit or take a break or something.

On Topic:
It doesnt really matter who uses it more and who uses it less, as long as para is
ingame, it's there to be used. And as someone said people will use it "just because
the other side does" even though they are against it.

Why does KK love para so much? Do they all play PPUs or something?

Freaky Fryd

30-01-05, 10:43

Remove it all...or at least remove the effect of it slowing your turning speed

Slow down for run speed is ridiculous enough, but removing your ability to quickly rotate is going way too far.

Capt. Rik

30-01-05, 12:20

nah keep it, makes things little harder... if you haven't got drugs or a PPU without anti para, you deserve it.

No, no, no you can't force people to have a PPU or use drugs. That really would be the end of this game

Jesterthegreat

30-01-05, 12:49

they use it about as much as NCAT, LAARD, UPS etc
this is about a gank tool not clans

yes...

our 2 PPU's cast HP as often as FF's god knows how many :rolleyes:

woo... lets turn our dislike of NCAT into another accusation! wooo!

now... i cant see Kopka's post here aata glance, but Sultana has said remove it. thats at least 50% of NCAT PPU's saying remove it. grow up

Speedball

30-01-05, 13:18

Remove PARA, it's just a lame thing, and most of the peoples who use it, can't aim anything without it.

Original monk

30-01-05, 13:20

Jesterthegreat

30-01-05, 14:33

shit i really dont hope this parashockthingie starts all over again o.O

ow yester .. that kinda sigs been removed in the past ... no kidding: some people got scared of em :)

like: OMG thats my computer !! haxx OMG haxx !!! even my browser and isp is in it, he knows everything !! everything !!! hehe

i knoiw... but im hoping the community isnt all idiots now... if someone is bothered they can PM a mod. if a mod PM's me about it illremove it

Ozambabbaz

30-01-05, 16:32

No, no, no you can't force people to have a PPU or use drugs. That really would be the end of this game

too late for that, most people accomodate tho by playing a monk instead, or never leave apt without ppu or using a stealther

Dribble Joy

30-01-05, 16:45

Once you've been hit by parashock you are no longer playing.

Exactly. This is something that I had mentioned ages ago, and was in essence what I was getting at earlier.

StrongSad

30-01-05, 19:10

I love it. 29 people have voted to keep para yet we have only heard for one of them and they rationalized their decision with, "just make sure you have a PPU glued to ur ass and u will be fine". :lol:

So where is the arguement to keep this crap?

Genty

30-01-05, 19:14

I abstained because a simple Yes or No does not give my view.

In it's current state, it should be removed yes! However, if it was toned down to a correct state then no it should not be removed.

It should, at maximum, take 50% of your run speed away and not effect your turning speed. IMO.

mishkin

30-01-05, 19:15

So where is the arguement to keep this crap?

There is none :o

Capt. Rik

30-01-05, 19:48

Niddy, Mr. Community Liason Sir,

70% of the english community want para removed totally. This is not the first thread on this topic. Will KK actually listen to us?

Regards :)

Jesterthegreat

30-01-05, 19:51

Niddy, Mr. Community Liason Sir,

70% of the english community want para removed totally. This is not the first thread on this topic. Will KK actually listen to us?

Regards :)

while iwould dispute 70% of the community (not all posthere) i would agree that everytime it has come up we have seen the same majority vote.

KK need to realise that this may be their game... but we are the customers.

Xylaz

30-01-05, 22:01

remove it. all of 'em. along with ppus too.

LTA

30-01-05, 22:05

KK need to realise that this may be their game... but we are the customers.
Not only are we the customers we are the people dealing with this stuff ingame everyday in some respects i'd go as far to say some people playing this game know more about it than some of the staff themselves :p

Nidhogg

30-01-05, 22:46

Niddy, Mr. Community Liason Sir,

70% of the english community want para removed totally. This is not the first thread on this topic. Will KK actually listen to us?
70% of the forum community would probably vote remove all aspects of roleplay and replace it with capture the flag but that isn't going to happen either. :p Balancing will continue as deemed necessary but freezers won't be removed. Neither will PPUs.

If the effect needs adjusting then that's something that can be looked into.

N

giga191

30-01-05, 22:59

I think it should do so that you have to take time to accelerate to full running speed.

Freaky Fryd

30-01-05, 23:02

If the effect needs adjusting then that's something that can be looked into.

Can it please be looked into to have the turning speed effect removed when para'd?
It's a nice compromise and still allows for some skill to be involved when para'd. As of right now, the person just needs to run around faster than the para'd person can rotate...which isn't that hard.

That way, you're still an easier target (due to hardly moving), but you own skill is actually still involved in the game and you have a decent hope in surviving.

Asurmen Spec Op

30-01-05, 23:02

That really shouldn't be brought into this thread, but I will say this, nib buffing seems to be a very good counter balance against ppus, IMO they should not be practically invulnerable. Whenever we do fight FF,

I've never once seen you fighting against NCAT (now uPs), that doesn't mean you haven't, however, I have fought alot with my clan, how would you know if we para, and how much? Generally when we raid CRP or whatever, either Ice (Kopaka) or myself will be the only PPU to support 3+ people, I think I've raided once together with both of us on our PPU's. I find it very hard to para even one person, when I have that many people to support.

In the odd chance that we do para in a fight, we don't para as much as FF do (nothing against FF in that respect). I'm not saying that we wouldn't like to para, as some of the people we fight run sooo damn fast, it's just that we don't have the time (or mana :rolleyes: ) to actually pull one off.

And once again, remove para on all weapons, balance the guards in whatever way (I'd like them going back to 80/80s). Then maybe anti-db might permanently find it's way into my belt :D Fight's without para, I would think, generally last longer and are better. I wasnt as aiming that at NCAT I was saying that its not just FF

Sir ramic hobbs

30-01-05, 23:05

The GM ha said it wont be removed how about reworked so that it is an APU spell rather than a PPU spell. If it was APU then it wouldnt be used in 1 on 1 as the APU casting it would have to stay still for ages and would probably get mowed down before it goes of. I dont know how it would affect OP fights etc but it is a spell that should be APU.

Seven

31-01-05, 00:00

If the effect needs adjusting then that's something that can be looked into.

N

IF???? 8|

Ozambabbaz

31-01-05, 00:01

...Neither will PPUs...
N

Still, Monks as a whole needs proper balancing. The point and click targetting system renders them by far the best choice for OP wars or any skirmishes which involves tight quarters and many friendlies + hostiles.

Having some with point and click and others with tracking reticles is a gap itself that really shines out under those circumstances that the game itself is focused on; multiplayer PvP.

Other factors such as runspeed impedement by weaponclass further solidifies this fact.

Add to the equasion that you 8/10 times need a monk to kill a monk, class balance seems non-existant.

Different combat roles are fine, but with reasonable spread please, not a PvP system in effect, then add a half thought out targetting system for up tp TL 40 modules(NC Beta) and then whush in an entire class(End Beta4) while all the regular classes got nerfed (weaponrunspeed and specialization patches).

Balance please.

Xylaz

31-01-05, 00:20

well, not removing a ppu seems like a retarded idea to me, but hey, its their game...

PPUs destroy every possible balance within this game. If they would remove para & ppus, this game wouldnt even need any more tweaks for pvp. Everything would become suddenly balanced. PvM would require some tweaks, but thats just reducing the mob stats, so not a big and very difficult job, even for KK.

but

ppu will stay, para will stay, nothing will change i guess.
"more ppus = win! more monks = win! more freezers/paras = win!"
There's a strategy eh?

I'll stick to mine though - if i see a ppu i'll pack my bags and leave the battlefield.

Freaky Fryd

31-01-05, 00:30

I'll stick to mine though - if i see a ppu i'll pack my bags and leave the battlefield.

That's generally my choice when DOY raiding...they bring a ppu, so I go elsewhere in DOY.

The one day, I had 9 people on my prox list that were out to kill me in the FA sector...a lone spy against them...2 of them were high-level ppus, and at least one a hybrid...
Needless to say, I moved to a different sector until they dispersed...

StrongSad

31-01-05, 00:32

70% of the forum community would probably vote remove all aspects of roleplay and replace it with capture the flag but that isn't going to happen either. Balancing will continue as deemed necessary but freezers won't be removed. Neither will PPUs.

If the effect needs adjusting then that's something that can be looked into.

N

KK chooses to listen to the forum community at times, and then 5 seconds later ignores them with the lame excuse, "you dont represent the majority". You cant just ignore your customers when you feel like it, well I guess you can....you just did. No wonder this game is dieing. Just admit it was a stupid idea in the first place and that stupid idea was then poorly implemented into the game. That is why so many players hate it. I cant think of anything in this game that is more mutually hated by such a large majority than parashock, in all of its forms. Yet KK does NOTHING to fix the problem, they in fact make it worse.

this is very frustrating :mad:

Capt. Rik

31-01-05, 00:35

At least meet the community half way and try halving freezer effectiveness for the duration of 1 patch?

Just a suggestion...

Tostino

31-01-05, 00:39

I dont see why KK like para so much... At least reduce/remove the melee para, its worse then holy para :(

spongeb0b

31-01-05, 00:43

hokai so... holy para... nerf or remove it cos i hate it... or... maybe create a new low level spell... anti para same rate of fire and requirements as TL3 heal? therefore everyone has an oppotunity to fight back?... /me digs out inqui 4

StrongSad

31-01-05, 01:10

whoever is voting to keep para speak the F' up. I really want to know your reasons.....

Vanten

31-01-05, 01:15

first of all: para isn't really fit in imo. This is a fast pasted fps, and moving one-half meter per sec isn't fast.

And to me, para seams like an agressive spell. It is not used to defend themselves, they can outheal anything without it. No one needs para, it's only alive coz KK though it was a good idea in the first place.

Seven

31-01-05, 01:24

whoever is voting to keep para speak the F' up. I really want to know your reasons.....

Actually, I would like to see an official reason(s) from KK on why they think it's ok the way it is now.

[ edited ]

LiL T

31-01-05, 02:35

whoever is voting to keep para speak the F' up. I really want to know your reasons.....
Because they think its grand [ edited ] and are the same people who vote to make the faction npc's overpowered so much that no one want to play anymore. At the end of the day I don't give a shit both my accounts will be canceled once this game shows no signs of ever pulling out of the hole it has made ...

Jesterthegreat

31-01-05, 02:40

nothing will happen yet again...

im so shocked... :rolleyes:

Kopaka

31-01-05, 02:50

hmm yeah remove para..
[ edited ]
but if u remove para.. u might as well remove copbot para also, and antipara, and para from WBs and terrormaulers etc.

as for the para = agressive..
damageboost & soulcluster are agressive also.. O_o

and while ur at it, give PEs a boost, they really need one, every1 fights with monks or tanks, just not fun anymore.

hegemon

31-01-05, 02:55

I voted to keep para simply because it doesn't matter to me.

When I get paraed, I stealth. If it was by a copbot, most likely I'll die because they shoot through the stealth. If it was by a ppu or a tank, it's around 50/50 if I survive. It doesn't matter to me. It's boring, because para means that I'll have to hide in a corner for a minute or two waiting for stealth, then heal, but it's better than dying. Para just means that I get a warning before the first damaging blow lands, which gives me that extra second to switch to stealth.

I have another suggestion to fix everything. Remove the class restriction and int requirement from stealth. That way everyone can stealth, but monks will have to choose between stealth or being able to move. Natural balance.

Kopaka

31-01-05, 02:58

stealthing monks? ya right...
stealthing tanks? same

monks dont need a boost or a nerf,
PEs need a boost, spies COULD use a boost

Asurmen Spec Op

31-01-05, 03:27

Bozz-Von Mel

31-01-05, 03:29

If you get hit with para, just para back. Then your even.

Asurmen Spec Op

31-01-05, 03:30

If you get hit with para, just para back. Then your even. if they gank your alt get your alt and gank them back, then your even
:)

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 04:42

When I get paraed, I stealth.
No number of rolleye emotes can be used to follow that one up.

If it was by a copbot, most likely I'll die because they shoot through the stealth. If it was by a ppu or a tank, it's around 50/50 if I survive. It doesn't matter to me. It's boring, because para means that I'll have to hide in a corner for a minute or two waiting for stealth, then heal, but it's better than dying. Para just means that I get a warning before the first damaging blow lands, which gives me that extra second to switch to stealth.
So why do you use stealth?
Would you stay and fight if they did not use it?

I have another suggestion to fix everything. Remove the class restriction and int requirement from stealth. That way everyone can stealth, but monks will have to choose between stealth or being able to move. Natural balance.
Fixing one broken thing with another. Even is stealth was 'fixed', it would make PvP incredibly boring, even more frustrating and pretty much uneventful as people wait for their oppoent (if they are still nearby) to pop out of stealth.

sanityislost

31-01-05, 05:13

Para takes more anyway from the game than it gives....
Soooooo get rid of it....

SiL ..:..

StrongSad

31-01-05, 05:35

When I get paraed, I stealth

Ok, so far we have "lol just stealth newb" for the keep para camp. Anyone else...?

Ninjano2002uk

31-01-05, 05:40

lol did i hear sum1 say Monks with Stealth LOL , full APU monk with Stealth + hack , LOL say no more , as for para erm.. am a friendly char just waitin rares + to kill mobs so i dont do much pvp :P NCP's shud not hav Para tho :@

MkVenner

31-01-05, 05:49

what SiL said lol

remove it :p

it takes no skill to kill some one who's glued to the floor...

tiikeri

31-01-05, 06:51

No

Perioid.

Tostino

31-01-05, 07:04

No

Perioid.
Why not?

Seven

31-01-05, 07:59

Yes, please enlighten us.

hegemon

31-01-05, 09:23

So why do you use stealth?
Would you stay and fight if they did not use it?

I use stealth because it's part of how I play my sniper. I don't give a fuck about all whiners who cry about "stealthing noob". Even if I die more often than them, I'm having fun and obviously they are not since they are whining. So in the grand scheme of things I'm the winner since I'm happier.

spongeb0b

31-01-05, 09:46

I use stealth because it's part of how I play my sniper. I don't give a fuck about all whiners who cry about "stealthing noob". Even if I die more often than them, I'm having fun and obviously they are not since they are whining. So in the grand scheme of things I'm the winner since I'm happier.

they weren't laughing at you because you stealth, they were laughing at you because your answer to para is a bit limited to erm yeah spys... we are after a global fix to para ie. remove it nerf it or create a fast casting counter para spell, making us pay for those drugs (that are not recyclebla and quite expensive) is not an answer.

f33StNeu$

31-01-05, 09:52

Maester Seymour

31-01-05, 09:55

Para takes more anyway from the game than it gives....
Soooooo get rid of it....
What SiL said,

Just get rid of the damned thing... :p

LTA

31-01-05, 09:56

I understand why people say that para can mean death for many runners.

However you CAN buy antishock drugs, these don't result in drugcrash and the only bad thing is that they can't be cloned or built so it gets a bit expensive.

On my melee tank, speed is my major advantage so when para'd i'm like a turtle on his back. So what do i do? I put some antishock in my QB --> problem solved.

btw, antishock is sold at crest
like 2k a pop and how quick can stun be recast?
Melee tanks have the ammo less shocker and monks have upteen millions of psi booster 3's soon as they click on u just anti para'd you get re para'd i'd be happy enough if catharsis sanctum was a anti para sanctum but then it increases the ppus job.
Belt space for some ppl is also a issue when it comes to anti shocks since they dont stack on your qb you gotta drag em out from your pack each time.

Can't see any reason for keeping freeze, it dosen't help mobs, it dosen't really help with mobs (cept flyin things n spiderbots) and it totally screws with pvp just neeeeerrrf it already lol

LiL T

31-01-05, 11:26

I understand why people say that para can mean death for many runners.

However you CAN buy antishock drugs, these don't result in drugcrash and the only bad thing is that they can't be cloned or built so it gets a bit expensive.

On my melee tank, speed is my major advantage so when para'd i'm like a turtle on his back. So what do i do? I put some antishock in my QB --> problem solved.

btw, antishock is sold at crest
But your a tank you get lots of free space in your QB some of us are lucky to get 2 slots spare.

Parra and PPU's in general piss me off so much I'll just log out or press ALT + F4 it gets boring after a while when your enemy is allways using PPU's. Mind some players I know will fight me on fair and equal grounds 1 vs 1 and I thank them for the fun fights :(

Vanten

31-01-05, 11:28

I think that KK should remove it for about a month, then we could all see how it acctually turned out, and decide after that.

But as SiL said, it takes more than it gives to the game.

Xer

31-01-05, 11:56

I dont think it should be totally removed, nerfed maybe, remember when they nerfed it to nearly nothing.. the PPUs bitched obviously, but you can't please everyone. Atleast when they nerfed it last time it was'nt instant death, it really but the heat on the reciever though without being too extreme.
Theres plenty of sides to this, think of the PPUs for example - They're in an op war/just fighting other players, what do they do? S/D Prims and heal their own peeps, obviously, but what then? sit and watch? they damage boost true, and para.. thats pretty much all (unless you're a TL3 / noob buff whore). But remember also, if you get PPU para'd, you're fighting a PPU.. you're fighting a PPU and his friends too usually.. wheres your PPU? assess the situation, the PPU is the last thing you shoot in a fight purely on the basis that he can out heal almost anything you can throw at him without antibuff / TL3, he's the cure on your side. But again, if you're fighting people with a PPU against you, you should rethink your strategy and sort out your own defence and offence.
These aint all the points to address when you think about this, but theres no easy yes or no answer.

sultana

31-01-05, 12:21

Xer try ppuing for more then one person, then try when they're running in and out of a group of however many enemies... it's not as simple as s/d and heal, then maybe buff. Nib buffing would probably be the easier of the ppu's jobs as it is either done when the enemy isn't paying attention, or he/she is the only one left. Basically what I'm trying to say it, you don't have time to sit and watch :rolleyes:

On the, if you get paraed your fighting a ppu, what about melee shockers? they're something like 10 or 15 seconds and are just as bad if not worse then holy para itself. Being paraed is not the only indication your fighting an enemy ppu. Really playing against an enemy team who has a ppu is nearly no different then against one which does have one. The only difference is they last longer, you still need heals and shields and if your fighting melee tanks, antipara. And PPU's are not always the last person to be taken down in a fight.

For me, it is an easy yes or no answer. What was the point of introducing para in the first place? All it does is make those people who have specced agl/ath and know how to use it, dead on their feet. Your runspeed is just as big a part of your defense as your health/resists are. Not only that, it makes a fight you should've won, lost. If the enemy can't hit you when your at full speed, your not going to be losing anytime soon.

I'm not sure why people would still want it in game? The only reason I would is so that I can keep my high rank :lol: Nib buffing I can avoid as a ppu and even when I am nib buffed I still have a chance of surviving, but when I'm paraspammed to hell and back (It's not that hard, when you see the white ball which looks like a boost, cast para again :wtf: ) I have no chance whatsoever.

One last thing, last time the para was "nerfed" They decreased the RoF from 105/min to 35/min, increased the mana cost by 100 or so and increased the stun effect. The only thing this did was make antipara drugs viable, and let ppus think twice about casting it, rather then spamming it like a hl.

Xer

31-01-05, 12:49

Hey, quit arguing, i'm stating points here, and i have PPUed in shitloads of op wars. It's not hard to get an anti-para on anyone even in the confusion, para might make you more of a target for enemy, but it also slows your ass down for a PPU to heal / buff / anti para. I dont think melee shockers are as severe as PPU para's, but i was'nt talking about those. If it's a melee shock then they've got to get up close with your first, everything balances out eventually. Shoot a melee tanks legs out, as good if not better than any para, thats what i do on my spy, so should we take away regional damage on people? Theres plenty of people biased here about their yes and no answers, i'm just suggesting they think about things before they get temselves worked up over another thing they hate about PPU's.
PPU's are getting chipped away at constantly now, noob buffing is common, TL3's have always been a favourite for some and people really get worked up over para. Slowly, the entire PPU class is being negated to nothing more than a guy in a blue dress!
Just remember the guy in the blue dress is the one sacrificing his trigger happy characters for that one to help you out, theres only a few people who will willingly log a PPU on every occassion, especially with 4 slot servers.
Finally, dont take this personally, the first person who reads this is'nt the one i'm writing this for.. and remember, everything evens out eventually, you'ge just got to think clever and be prepared. If you're a brainless zombie that runs up to an army with PPUs and might get para'd in the process, then go and bitch on OOC because of it.. well, fuck you :angel: .

sultana

31-01-05, 13:02

Well if the only only way you can get a heal, s/d on someone is if they're paraed?

A ppu does not die to a tl 3 heal, much against popular belief, in fact I'd go as far as saying, in most cases tl 3 healing as a waste of time. Though I have died to it before (got tl 3 healed after being antibuffed twice in a row :) ) This thread is about Parashock in general, not about ppu's or their role in an OP war. Also taking out someones legs isn't the easiest of things to do, the fact that most of the time they have a holy s/d heal running makes it that much harder.

I'm curious as to whether you usually outnumber/out ppu the other side in a war, as the way you make out ppuing to be, makes me think you do.

Sigma

31-01-05, 13:31

[...]PPU's are getting chipped away at constantly now, noob buffing is common, TL3's have always been a favourite for some and people really get worked up over para. Slowly, the entire PPU class is being negated to nothing more than a guy in a blue dress![...]

Maybe KK shouldn't have introduced them in the 1st place...

Original monk

31-01-05, 13:43

Maybe KK shouldn't have introduced them in the 1st place...

monks you mean ? :D

Freaky Fryd

31-01-05, 13:59

Shoot a melee tanks legs out, as good if not better than any para, thats what i do on my spy, so should we take away regional damage on people?
Not all weapons do regional damage. The Healing Light is pretty much the only weapon I use on my spy, and it doesn't do regional damage... (well, a region that I pick)
There's other weapons that just do overall or random region damage only too...

However you CAN buy antishock drugs, these don't result in drugcrash and the only bad thing is that they can't be cloned or built so it gets a bit expensive.

Yes they do give drugflash. First one, with no other drugs going, usually doesn't give flash...wait until you get to the second and third and fourth that you take in quick succession.
It's like Stealth 1...some people say it doesn't give a drugflash...it does...try using it more than a couple times quickly.
(it's a very low level of drugflash and hardly disabling, I'm just using it as a point)

Another bad thing is that I have to open my inventory to use them...at least beyond the first one. My belt is already full, and even if I had a slot for one, it doesn't stack (or reload the slot) so I need to open my inventory to get/take another one.

There's been occasions that I've gotten away from PPUs, even though I'm shocked, damage boosted, stuck in their true sight AND under fire from someone. The drug flash I get from the 2-4 drugs I have to take to get away is bad enough that I need to retreat and wait it out.
(and I don't necessarily mean 2-4 different drugs - sometimes I have to double-take drugs to get away)

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 14:43

People keep voting to keep it in, not abstaining or saying I dunno, but actually to keep this thing ingame.
Why?
All we have so far is things like 'It's easier to buff/n00b buff people that are paraed', 'It's part of the game, deal with it', 'use the drugs, they're viable' and 'just stealth'.

Please don't make me start saying 'get some skills'.

I use stealth because it's part of how I play my sniper. I don't give a fuck about all whiners who cry about "stealthing noob". Even if I die more often than them, I'm having fun and obviously they are not since they are whining. So in the grand scheme of things I'm the winner since I'm happier.
So you have no problems whatsoever in using an overpowered item?
Righto.

Xer

31-01-05, 14:59

I'm just gonna give up what i'm saying here, it does'nt seem to get through some peoples thick skulls. I was talking (if you can't tell) about PPU para'ing because i know about that, i'm not saying thats the only kind of para and such, just thats what I was talking about in particular with my reply, get it? got it? ja?
I dont think PPUs should have never been created, they add an interesting support role to fighting.
"I'm curious as to whether you usually outnumber/out ppu the other side in a war, as the way you make out ppuing to be, makes me think you do."
I can't quite get my head around what you're saying here, but i've found in most cases that the side with more PPUs comes out ontop, imagine a PPU to each fighter in an op war, Silent on pluto came close to this quite frequently and they were a good fight. I'm not talking about my personal fights by the way, i've seen it in countless foreign fights.
"Well if the only only way you can get a heal, s/d on someone is if they're paraed?"
Is that supposed to be some kind of attack on me or something? Bwahaha.. Lets not make this personal mind you, it's a valid discussion, but some people prefer squabbling if anyone else makes a comment or wants to speak a point like i first did. Or.. is that not allowed?

Kierz

31-01-05, 15:00

Let us stack things in the quick belt, I carry about 20 anti-shock drugs in my inv at all time, but if I get para'd twice in a fight I'm practicly fuxed cause I need to open my rpos to anti shock myself and attempting to run away is pointless when theres a bloody reticle-less apu spamming 2/3 HL's on you per second.

I voted yes cause I hate the way it is so much at the moment, but I can say true melee tanks would suffer from this quite a lot, the netcode isn't stable enough for a melee without shock (unless they're fighting an idiot who has no sense of movement/evasion).

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 15:11

I'm just gonna give up what i'm saying here, it does'nt seem to get through some peoples thick skulls. I was talking (if you can't tell) about PPU para'ing because i know about that, i'm not saying thats the only kind of para and such, just thats what I was talking about in particular with my reply, get it? got it? ja?
NO!
What the fuck are you talking about.

I dont think PPUs should have never been created, they add an interesting support role to fighting.
True, however to deny that their affect on PvP is not overpowered is simply wrong.
How we can solve it is a matter for debate, but something has do be done, the problem being that it will take something big. Something that all those people with their invulnrable PPUs won't like.

I can't quite get my head around what you're saying here, but i've found in most cases that the side with more PPUs comes out ontop, imagine a PPU to each fighter in an op war,
More ppus per fighter = less people for the PPU to manage, they can do thier job better.
However this is a para discussion, not a PPU discussion.

Is that supposed to be some kind of attack on me or something? Bwahaha.. Lets not make this personal mind you, it's a valid discussion, but some people prefer squabbling if anyone else makes a comment or wants to speak a point like i first did. Or.. is that not allowed?
[self edited]
By the way, what is your reason for keeping para in?

hegemon

31-01-05, 15:29

So you have no problems whatsoever in using an overpowered item?
Righto.

Yes, as long as there are ppus, as long as tanks have more con than me, as long as PEs can use shelter without drugs, as long as apus don't need a reticle, as long as melee tanks do posion damage, as long as monk armor is vastly superior to anything else, ... etc.

Or I can accept reality and learn how to deal with it. If I wanted perfect equality where noone needs to use the brain when setting up the character, etc, I'd play counterstrike.

Everything that you don't know how to use is overpowered. Everything that you use is underpowered. Some people call it unfair or not equal, I call them stupid because they use bad weapons instead of good weapons. And their stupidity is further amplified by the fact that they loudly and firmly announce their dumb decisions and designs to the whole world instead of shutting up, listening, looking and maybe learning something.

And I'm not going to argue about this anymore, I have fun, if you're not having fun, it's your problem and your fault.

Original monk

31-01-05, 15:49

By the way, what is your reason for keeping para in?

my reason is: because KK says so :)

i remember endless conversations with scikar about the para, atleast as heavy reactions as there are here now :)

but at the end KK yust told us that para stays in, whatever the reason maybe .. my guess was that mjs likes playing a ppu emself :P

dunno, i dont mind para, im so used to it now and getting para'ed doesnt mean dead by default :) well ... not always :P

if they take it out so be it, atleast make it mob only then and denerf the castrate .. if they let it in .. i wont complain either :)

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 15:53

Shenyu Reza

31-01-05, 16:04

Yes :)

zii

31-01-05, 16:06

I voted no. I would like to see para removed, but I see no problem with freezers in general.

Nidhogg

31-01-05, 16:06

Xer

31-01-05, 16:10

*Changed after Nidhoggs post* Pointless anyway, i wont argue.

hegemon

31-01-05, 16:12

My point is, that your response to para, your solution to para is to stealth.
Which is fine (kinda), but what about those who can't stealth?

Then use something else. Use drugs? Not enough space for drugs in the quickbelt? Gee, I guess something else is more important to you than avoiding para. You sure you need all those spells you don't even use in op fights in the belt? How about dumping that secondary weapon you're using once every 5 weeks?

Para adds nothing but frustration and anger. It has to go.

Loosing a fight adds nothing but frustration and anger for some people. Let's make them invulnerable so that they shut up whining? If para is "fixed" then the whiners will find something else that makes them loose fights and they'll start whining about that. At least para is a known whiners constant. Keep it so that people shut up about other overpowered tools that I might use.

MkVenner

31-01-05, 16:13

my belts full, and everything in it i use in op fights, i can write a list for yah but i cant b bothered

and i dont get angry or frustrated if i loose to a fair and honourable fight, if someone needs to glue me to the ground then what does that show for them?

Ultazha

31-01-05, 16:15

Ugh.
OK, lets ignore whether stealth is overpowered, my fault, shouldn't have mentioned it, whatever.

My point is, that your response to para, your solution to para is to stealth.
Which is fine (kinda), but what about those who can't stealth?

Make all classes able to use stealth?
Yay fun!
PvP would consist of people popping in and out of stealth as they got para and re paraed.

Para adds nothing but frustration and anger. It has to go.

I remember threads where you were more constructive...

Most of your posts in your thread are saying: "no you"re wrong, i'm the man who knows the thing better than you, so i am right."

Instead of seeing all the game problems on the para, why don't you say : "ok para is part of game. Fine. Now why does it actually unbalance op wars so much ?"

- anti para drugs too expensive/not recyclable.
- make a new subskill "resist para" in const or improve the ATL impact on evading from para witch would help tanks for resisting to para.
- make low TL ppu anti para spell witch can reduce the para effect or remove it depending on the para power.
- create a new implant that reduce para effect by 25% and give a STR malus (example)
- increase the para strength of para pistol/rifle/canon or adjust the holy para strength to those one.

There's so many ideas to find and to propose to KK much better than removing para.

Removing is the easy way, finding solutions is the hard way...

hegemon

31-01-05, 16:15

my belts full, and everything in it i use in op fights, i can write a list for yah but i cant b bothered

and i dont get angry or frustrated if i loose to a fari and honoruble fight, if someone needs to glue me to the ground then what does that show for them?

It shows that they are smarter than you. Because you're whining about "honor" while they are hacking your belt.

MkVenner

31-01-05, 16:19

having to spend more points of loose implant slots wouldnt work, not atm, not with the amount of points you need to invest into a few certain area's.

Its not that para drugs are too expensive or not recyclable, its that i can maybe free up one or two slots in my quickbelt, and a PPU or freezer can be used quicker than i can re slot those drugs, spcially while im being twatted,

Low TL anti para spell might work...dunno

//edit: im not whining, just coz you dont like what im saying doesnt make it a whine, and do i honestly give a flying fuck about dropping shit in my quickbelt? no i dont, nothing that cant be replaced easy as pie, what i do give a fuck about is how that quickbelt got there.

Original monk

31-01-05, 16:22

this been discussed a million times by now and its still in ...

as a proof i yust copied a random selection of 100 paranerfthreads in this post as a little readtrough for the bored and to show you that all the anger and hatred has no use :)

(i accidentaly closed the window tough and now im 2 mad on my own stupidity to restart all over again, some good memory's in there tough, especially scikar, shadowdancer and mayhemmike where extreme parahaters :P )

ow and by the way .. anyone have a remove parashocksig left from the old days ?? :P (i hope i aint bringing everyone to idea's cause all the same sigs = extremely boring)

Seven

31-01-05, 16:40

It wouldn't matter if 500 people say it has to go and 30 people say it stays.
We've seen landslide polls in the past that KK ignored so why bother anymore.
KK thinks para is good for the game, so fuck it, I'm making one and joining in on the fun that KK is force feeding us.

If you can't beat them, join 'em.

Yay 4me I r teh win00r :rolleyes:

Obsidian X

31-01-05, 16:49

Why not make a real anti-para drug or spell? The name anti-para suggests blocking of parashock, not curation pf it. Anti shock drugs and the antishock spell only remove para, why not have drugs and buffs that provide a temporary shield (say, the antipara spell provides total immunity to parashock for 120 seconds or something).

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 16:57

It shows that they are smarter than you. Because you're whining about "honor" while they are hacking your belt.
Would you like a level playing field? Or do you want an unfair one?

Most of your posts in your thread are saying: "no you"re wrong, i'm the man who knows the thing better than you, so i am right."
I'd disagree, not that anyone believes me, apparently.
I'm just sick of these arguements.

Instead of seeing all the game problems on the para, why don't you say : "ok para is part of game.
Why should it be part of the game?
What does it add to the game?

Fine. Now why does it actually unbalance op wars so much ?"
It's not just OP wars, it's all of PvP.
It's unbalancing for so many reasons.
The main points are these:
This is a skill based game, para removes that aspect.
Para removes your control of your character and it's fate.

- anti para drugs too expensive/not recyclable.
Drugs are not the answer, even if they gave no flash, made you invulnravle to para for their duration and were given out for free I will still argue that para to be removed.
Why? for the above question of what para adds to any part of the game.

- make a new subskill "resist para" in const or improve the ATL impact on evading from para witch would help tanks for resisting to para.
No.
Not only is it unfair to those who (for some reason) don't spec it, but it would be pointless.
Everyone would spec the minimum amount of whatever skill, and para would never be used, the point put into that skill then wasted, but you won't be able to get rid of them.
You've removed para, and everyone has gimped stats.

- make low TL ppu anti para spell witch can reduce the para effect or remove it depending on the para power.
No.
Those few moments when you get paraed, change weapon (and thus stop fighting) cast (which will probably require you to either stop or walk, unless you have high PSU, which, HC tanks, and dex based PEs don't) has allready at a complete disadvantage to the other person.
Do it back to them?

- create a new implant that reduce para effect by 25% and give a STR malus (example)
No. Even if it gave complete immunity to para, for the same reasons as the skill based idea.
Also, less options for a setup, more cookie cutting, more boredom.

Not solving the problem, infact, making it worse.

All these ideas (bar the last one), have the aim of removing/stopping para, so why have it in the first place?
Part of the game?
Another aspect of fighting?
It does not add any enjoyment, fun, clever tactics.
It's purpose is to put the other player at a disadvantage to you. To take the even fight and unfairly pull it in your favour.
It is a tool that's use is to make it easier for you to kill him and make it nigh impossible for them to kill you.

[quote]There's so many ideas to find and to propose to KK much better than removing para.

Removing is the easy way, finding solutions is the hard way...
Again, the 'solutions' are all an attempt to remove it's effects, cancel it's effects and/or work round it so that it won't affect you. Though most of them, though they remove it, end up having an adverse effect on all aspects of the char's existance.
So why keep it in?
It just gets in the way, it's an unnecissary nuisance.
Note the italics.
We don't NEED para.

Nidhogg

31-01-05, 17:00

It wouldn't matter if 500 people say it has to go and 30 people say it stays.
We've seen landslide polls in the past that KK ignored so why bother anymore.
I've watched every vote on this topic (how could I not?) and it's never been a landslide, nor is it now. Keep an open mind.

N

Ultazha

31-01-05, 17:04

Please do not say "We don't NEED para." but say "I don't WANT para"

You are not a community representative and all the people here do not agree with you.

The ideas that i gave where "ok let's find some things in 30 seconds"-ideas.
I just wanted to say that trying to find some new idea to balance pvp is better than removing one.

MkVenner

31-01-05, 17:08

ok how about, this

why do we need para?

answer me that

Ultazha

31-01-05, 17:13

ok how about, this

why do we need para?

answer me that

Personnaly i do not NEED para, i HAVE para.
So i play with it.

I bought a game with ppu and para, i pay it each months since nearly 2 years. I love it as it is and i let devs doing their job :)

Ministry

31-01-05, 17:18

didnt read most of the thread, first few pages and nids announcement, thats it.

however way i see it, its either got to be removed, or all freezers made the same(so either holy para is reduced or pistol/rifle/cannon freezers increased).

and i remember how freezers back in the day reduced the game play to turrets, or who shocked first.

wouldnt want a returnto that for sure.

really tho i see no reason that people would really need para, when i was a hybrid i rarely used it, and then in the days i had a ppu onmy tanks ass, the two ppus i had ppuing me in battle regular hardly ever used the para, they didnt need to.

ppus remove an element of skill(sure being ppu also requires skill)and para removes even more skill.

id rather have them gone, however after 2 years + of arguing(i recall a number ofpeople left the first time when paras were a problem)i dont think its going to be sorted just yet(thou sorted is a point of view)

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 17:20

Please do not say "We don't NEED para." but say "I don't WANT para"
Give me one good, valid reason why para should remain a part of PvP.
Of course, anything you say that you think is right (because, you know, you're as high and mighty as you are making me out to be), will be considered not a good valid reason, to which you will attack me for disagreeing...
.... and round and round the mullberry bush we go.
I like the way you are using my debate methods as a way to devalue my points, rather than arguing why para should remain (onoz! hypocracy?!).

You are not a community representative and all the people here do not agree with you

The ideas that i gave where "ok let's find some things in 30 seconds"-ideas.
I just wanted to say that trying to find some new idea to balance pvp is better than removing one.
Not my point.
Any idea to combat para, is an attempt to remove it's effects.
Like I said in the last post, why then keep it in?
Do you want an unbalanced, unfair, frustrating, uneven playing field where we spend half of our effforts trying to not get paraed?
Or do we want a level field where we can focus on doing what we are there to do (Ie. fight) and have fun?

Yay. I am now serious pissed off. Which doesn't happen often.
Anything I say from now on now has no value.
Congratulations, you have 'won' the arguement.
Happy now?

Xer

31-01-05, 17:34

I think some people here need a reality check.
The point about whether PvP is fair or not is rubbish and Para hardly affects whats fair and whats not. There are much more dirty tricks than para to decide the outcome of fights. Para is an obsticle, like the other guy having a bigger gun than you, it's something to overcome.. be that to outsmart them, call for help, face it like a man or run like a chicken.. it's always been there, always been up for debate and it's still something some people rely on. When you think about it, the idea behind para is to make things unfair, the only counter for para is another para back at them, or drugs and such of course, but if both sides are spamming para like whores, then it's still fair right? You've just got to decide for your self (if you dont have someone to para and they do) do i want to fight them? If you do, and you die, tough shit? If you run and look for another chance, or even get equal with your own PPU or whatever they have, the chances of you winning are once again back where they were.

Ultazha

31-01-05, 17:36

I do not want to win any battle against you but i just can't let you (or another one) pretending talking in the name of all. That's all.

Now let me explain what is my vision of PVP in neocron.

Neocron is a Team Game. i know it's not the subject but for me 1vs1 MUST be unfair depending on the class you play. And each class must have strong and weak points. Another point is i think remote holy heal/s/d are too strong for me. and lot of little things like that making actual neocron not exactly my perfect minded neocron.

Now why do i like para in game ?

Cause if a Team has a freezing class in its members, this team MUST have an advantage on the other team. That's just logic.

Para is the only weapon (with DB) that changes the opponent skills. That's why so many people hate it. That ruins their game and their tactic.

You know what ? That's why i love it !

I played PPU, APU, Tanks and SPY all capped.
When i play PPU, para is my favourite weapon, cause i know that it makes my ennemy becoming anxious and nervous.
When i play a damager, i'm really scared of Para, always having drugs in my belt. When i'm para'ed my heart goes crazy and i know at this moment that if i play as shit, i'm dead in 20 seconds. That's an adrenalyn boost almost unbelievable.

I love Para, when i use it and when i'm the target.

Genty

31-01-05, 17:40

Chill Pills all round.

Its up to KK to decide now. No point stressing over it...again.

Xylaz

31-01-05, 17:50

my point why i dont want para anymore in game and ppus as well

para:

lowers your defens to zero, makes u suddenly vulnerable to everything. Makes the opponent 5 times stronger as you for the duration of the spell.

which i call imbalance

ppu:
lowers your dmg output to zero, makes your enemy invulnerable to everything. Makes your opponent at the very least 5 times stronger as you, for the time ppu is with him.

which i call another imbalance

If we got one simple factor which suddenly adds 500% to your combat skills, there is some serious problem here. Thats why it is true that to balance the 500% boost you need at least 5 more people to be able to compete.

That's how it works from my perspective. Without para and without ppus everyone would be equal, now we have walking safezones in the bodies of ppus and instant ganking machines with the name of parashocks.

Radamez

31-01-05, 17:59

Don't even play anymore, but to me, it's an undisputed fact that parashock ruins the enjoyment of this game considerably for many, many players. I know it did me.

And KK are being extremely ignorant by keeping it in the game when the majority want it gone! What is it? do they have some kind of contract with the guy that invented "blue glue" to keep it in the game?

It's a very good example of why the game is where it is right now.

I'd even go as far as to back Xylaz on removing PPU's, the game was so much better before they arrived. But removing an entire class is completely unrealistic given how many have, and pay for the upkeep of their own pet PPU.

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 18:00

<blah>
Don't bother mate.

It's clear that nothing is ever going to happen, regardless of who or where we argue.
KK will make some tiny alteration, say that they have fixed it and then leave it.

It continues to amaze me how completely and utterly selfish and arrogant this people can be when it comes to something like this (onoz! hypocracy?!).

PPUs, para, game imbalance and stealth is here to stay.

Jesterthegreat

31-01-05, 18:03

I'm not intending to quit.

I qouldn't quit over para.

however... it wouldd be a factor. anything that makes combat boring pushes me closer. stealth, para and general PPU power would be the 3 major factors.

ally killing? if an ally attacks me i treat him like an enemy. simple. this ruins nothing for me.

zerging? yes... i hate this, however at least i tend to have a good fight before the zerg.

noob buffing? annoying... but i can live with it.

anyways... 2 questions...

1. if it was a landslide... would it make a difference?

2. looking back at any para discussion thread, can you find one where "keep it in" was the majority vote?

SorkZmok

31-01-05, 18:09

Cause if a Team has a freezing class in its members, this team MUST have an advantage on the other team. That's just logic.

Para is the only weapon (with DB) that changes the opponent skills. That's why so many people hate it. That ruins their game and their tactic.

You know what ? That's why i love it !

I played PPU, APU, Tanks and SPY all capped.
When i play PPU, para is my favourite weapon, cause i know that it makes my ennemy becoming anxious and nervous.
When i play a damager, i'm really scared of Para, always having drugs in my belt. When i'm para'ed my heart goes crazy and i know at this moment that if i play as shit, i'm dead in 20 seconds. That's an adrenalyn boost almost unbelievable.

I love Para, when i use it and when i'm the target.If a team got a PPU and the other team hasnt, thats by far enough advantage. Theres no need for a spell that completely destroys ones skill. Yes destroys, not changes. There is no skill where one cant move or even fucking turn. And no, in my opinion anti drugs are NOT a solution, theyre just some crap put in the game to shut up those disliking para. They dont stack, 2 of em already give a drugflash and theyre expensive.

When i play PPU, i hate using para but i have to. Why? Everyone does, i would be stupid not to use it.
When i play another class, i hate para. It kills me. Instantly. Most of my characters havent even got free space in their quickbelt for anti drugs, and even if they have, those drugs are gone in 10 seconds. And opening up my inventory to use one is not an option as standing still gets you killed even faster. No need to be fast again when you just got hit by a full clip of whatever just trying to get rid of the para.
I dont get anxious and nervous when i`m parad, i get angry. Thats all. Kids' so angry then. Nothing else.

But nice to see at least you like to ruin other peoples game and tactics. o_O

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 18:24

1. if it was a landslide... would it make a difference?
Precicely.

Seven

31-01-05, 18:58

I've watched every vote on this topic (how could I not?) and it's never been a landslide, nor is it now. Keep an open mind.

N

I was just pointing out that there have been other polls that where landslides and nothing was ever done so why should this one be any different "if" it where a landslide?

The only poll I remember KK ever using was about the botched Saturn rollback for the transfer snapshot.

As far as having an open mind, I'm still here aren't I? :p

retr0n

31-01-05, 19:07

Nidhogg, even if it never was a landslide, the "remove option" has always won.
So why oh why does KK not listen to the majority of the community?

Maybe KK doesnt like to do what the community wants, it seems that if they did
then para would be long gone, since the majority have always voted for it
to be removed.

Also as you point out, not everybody votes on this matter, but then again, the
people that have left this game due to it's many issues (para being a major one)
are not here to vote either.

So when you guys sit down and start debating "Should we keep para or remove it?
Or maybe just try and "fix" it? Or do something else?" I would like to know what
KK is thinking.

What I'm basicly saying is, I would like to know why KK are keeping para ingame?
Sure KK are the devs and all, but we are the customers & the players, and if
you dont vote for something, then your vote simply doesnt count, easy as
that.

Just a simple question. Why? (Official answer only plz)

Jesterthegreat

31-01-05, 19:10

MkVenner

31-01-05, 19:16

would be easy to do...just +m and only voice nid etc

§FS§Red Wing

31-01-05, 19:38

I say keep it.

It does happen to me and it surely doesn't help me survive but I can live with it.
You can have PPUs antifreeze you and if that's not gonna happen you can always use drugs.
It just adds another aspect to the fight which you must look out for.

Of course para is annoying and it can be your death.
But how often do you really get hit by it?
Do you get hit every time an enemy PPU spots you?
Or maybe only then when the fire concentrates on you anyway?
Probably something in between those two extremes but it is more likely that the second case occurs far more often than the first.
And if that's the case you would most likely go down anyway, para just helps a bit(and only a bit).

Also there is another simple reason to keep para in :
if there was no para then there wouldn't be a need for antishock drugs. So you would have at least 2 free QB slots.
What would you put in there then?
I know I would put damageblockers in there to counter the last remaining supporting spell that affects me.

Now who would loose out most if almost everyone would carry damageblockers with them...it will most likely be the PE.
So there would we go, right into a serious balancing problem.
Serious because there is nothing that could be given to the PE to make up for the loss of DB without introducing completely new concepts or taking something from the other classes which would then turn them at a disadvantage.

Richard Blade

31-01-05, 20:10

Not trying to walk a Grim Chaser into the room, but I imagine...

The argument for removing Para because it inhibits the way you play, is crap.
Just because something reduces your ability to play your character is no reason to remove it from the game.

Fall damage: Running around hills trying to kill someone and you fall off one of their mile high, three foot cliff and lose your legs. Remove this, it inhibits your ability to kill the other guy.

Drones hit by chain fired Holy Lightning: You receive a drug flash like effect that removes your ability to fly the drone, you can't even see your heads up display to know if you're about to blow up, or managed to fly behind something. Not to mention the APU's ability to hit your drone through walls and halfway across a zone. Remove this, it inhibits your ability to kill the other guy.

Drug abuse: Self explained. Most of you use drugs and know how it affects your characters. Stumble around, can't see. Remove it, it inhibits your ability to kill the other guy.

Weapons fire from anyone else: You receive damage to your legs, or at worst, fall down dead and they flame and sex your corpse. Gosh, this probably is the best example of having your ability to control your character removed from you. Remove it from the game, it inhibits your ability to do anything.

Para is a weapon just like chain fired holy lightning, blowing someones legs out from under them, or any other combat effect that causes you to take damage, or lose control.

I've seen some other arguments against that actually make sense. This one, doesn't. Not unless you remove every other effect in the game that causes someone some kind of discomfort.

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 20:26

<general bum fluff>
Leg damage/locational dmg is a problem, as it's intended (from what I have been told) that locational weapons are to be made non locational. Not an issue.

Getting shot does not stop you playing your character.

Falling down a cliff does not stop you playing your character. Yes there are issues with slopes and getting shot, but that is a separate issue, and you cannot argue against a fix with something that itself needs fixing.

Drone 'drug' flash, again another issue that needs sorting, droners are allways asking for it's reduction or removal, I tend to agree.
Besides the drones can still move while under it's effects.

Drugs. You choose to take drugs and the risks they bring. You do not choose to have the control of your character taken away from you with para.

There are problems with many aspects of NC, and they are exactly that, problems. You cannot use there existance as means of argueing to keep para ingame.

<blah>
So are you actually for or against it?
Your post is a wee bit confusing.

Richard Blade

31-01-05, 20:36

Given KK's track record for fixing things, I considered those issues to be 'intended environmental effects' of the game. Such the same for Para except that by your account, Para isn't a result of a bug.

I am currently undecided, I just haven't seen an argument one way or the other that sway's me to make a choice.

I had to explain why I don't like that argument. Fate or free will. I still see it as another weapon.

I suppose you could remove PPU's from the game to solve the problem, but that would overpower PE's to an extreme level. They'd be the only ones with shelter and deflector without having to severely gimp. That's not fair either.

§FS§Red Wing

31-01-05, 20:36

I'm for keeping para in. ;)

Leebzie

31-01-05, 20:42

You nearly had me saying yes, but , this is what would be much better :

All para's get boosted :O...

But they are PvM only. Players can shock and freeze monsters and prey on them. much better, yay. No more pvp para, yay 2 ! who'd agree with that ?

sanityislost

31-01-05, 21:20

Dribble Joy

31-01-05, 21:24

I have nothing against it's use in PvM.

Maester Seymour

31-01-05, 21:26

PvM only sounds good to me.

Anna

31-01-05, 22:23

Kopaka

31-01-05, 22:40

u really think PvM is gonna work..? KK should concentrate on other "features" first.

This doesnt mean im in favor of para, quite the opposite, I really hate it, I never use it on my PPU although I have 3 or 4...
If I should choose to use it, and I miss, 150 mana is wasted.. and thats mana I cant afford to loose during PvP with my setup, at least not more than twice.

Original monk

31-01-05, 22:42

hehe you guys sure are driven :)

must confess i got killed today and only reason there was parashock :)

think it would indeed be intresting to see the game witouth it once :) (altough my blessed hybrid would miss freezing those left-right strafing lowtechPE's and melleetanks ..)

i know for sure that especially the melleetanks/hybridtanks wil benefit from this in combat, but so do all other classes that dont get shocked, even for a ppu a shock can be dangerous :)

still i dont dislike parashock, not at all even and im not afraid to tell in this parahaterthread that i like to give the occasional shock here and there :P

probably to make up for my lack of skill, but mostly for fun :D

anyway, i would like to see it as an experiment for once yeah, would be ok to patch em away and check the reaction from the community (not only the people from this forum who only listen to the ones yelling the hardest hé)

-> all shockeffects gone from all weapons solely in pvp :) (and from the guards)

bet that another problem will pop right up and people gonna whine over sumthing else like it always been :) but i dont think it will harm neocron pvp to get rid of it -> this comming from one of the heavy pro-para people of the old days :)

this reminds me that para isnt all THAT bad atm lol, dont ya remember how paraschock used to be like ?? if you call this glue ? ya can even walk while capped holy para'ed, that used to be slightly diffrent lol, ya can even turn a littlebit atm o.O

also dont mind my abuse of smiley's, ty

and good evening, i like to read this discussion, so much passion in it all around :)

edit: aslong as ya dont start with them annoying sigs im happy :)

them blue "remove para" sigs with disco letters, yeah them :/

trigger hurt

31-01-05, 23:18

didnt have inet for a few days so saw this quite late
ive seen 1000s of para whinethreads so im not gonna bother reading all the above

no.

theres anti-para drugs, if you cant time the use of it, you just suck, period

and besides, everyone whines how hard to kill ppus are, now how much harder wouldnt it be without para?

Coming from a person in a clan who's apu's and tanks couldn't hit the broad side of a barn without para, this is expected.

Fact is, I can pop all the drugs I want and remove shock. All you have to do is spend a little more mana, pop a psi booster and im glued again. You don't get a flash for hitting me with too many paras, but taking too many antishocks and im just as good as fucked.

SamuraiPizzaCat

31-01-05, 23:22

Coming from a person in a clan who's apu's and tanks couldn't hit the broad side of a barn without para, this is expected.

Fact is, I can pop all the drugs I want and remove shock. All you have to do is spend a little more mana, pop a psi booster and im glued again. You don't get a flash for hitting me with too many paras, but taking too many antishocks and im just as good as fucked.

HI SIR
i shall be back soon to para spam them for u:eek:

hegemon

31-01-05, 23:50

Would you like a level playing field? Or do you want an unfair one?

It is level. You're as entitled to use a ppu with para as anyone else. Don't want to be a ppu? Why not? I killed my ppu because it was so violently boring to level up, maybe para is the reward for going through the painfully boring process of leveling up a ppu? And generally because ppus are so violently boring to play.

The playing field is level. It's not like some people are exploiting the mechanics to gain an advantage. You have the same possibility to use the same techniques as everyone else. For some reason you don't want that. And you can call it "stealthing noob", "lack of honor" or "noob buffs". You are as much allowed to use those tools as anyone else. If you don't use them, it just means that you don't want to adapt. What you apparently want is for everyone to play the way you want to, not the way they want to. You basically demand people to entertain you on your conditions without realizing that people are not here to entertain you. I'm here to entertain myself and my friends.

Note. I don't mean that we should just shut up and accept all game mechanics that are thrown at us, but there is a fine line between constructively suggesting improvement and loudly demanding compliance to your whims.

SorkZmok

01-02-05, 00:29

Right, fresh from another opfight. I used up 10 anti para drugs in 2 minutes. Then i died parad, damageboosted, noob healed and drugflashed to hell.
3 attackers 3 ppus. Funny. Wheres the skill in that?

I hate this game. And if some game youre not allowed to name is ANY good, im gone. I cant stand this shit anymore, it pisses me off more and more everytime i log on.

Freaky Fryd

01-02-05, 00:30

why do we need para?

I didn't...I played a PPU for a while and refused to carry a para with me.
THAT'S how much I hated it...
I absolutely refused to use it, and I got along pretty good without it.
(I no longer own that ppu, so those that knew who he was should know that it's not me anymore!)

if there was no para then there wouldn't be a need for antishock drugs. So you would have at least 2 free QB slots.
What would you put in there then?
I know I would put damageblockers in there to counter the last remaining supporting spell that affects me.

Now who would loose out most if almost everyone would carry damageblockers with them...it will most likely be the PE.

Actually I carry 10+ of each of the anti-db, anti-para, antidote & anti-stealth drugs on my spy at all times. I just don't have room in belt for any of them...they're all in my inventory.

Sigma

01-02-05, 02:46

monks you mean ? :D

PPUs.

My view on this whole problem:

Para = Anti-Christ.

Wait.

PPU = Anti-Christ

Para = smaller, but still fucking annoying and unbalanced Anti-Christ.

Dribble Joy

01-02-05, 03:37

Time to sound disgustingly elitist :p.

Anyone who is a serious (and I mean serious) PvPer knows what it does to combat, what it does to PvP, and they know that it has to be stopped.
What this game is, it's very selling point is dulled to nothing as long as para, not only remains as it is, but remains a part of PvP entirely.
It has to go.

Seven

01-02-05, 03:40

eprodigy

01-02-05, 04:40

from experiance in op wars i say it still is annoying but i can deal with shock drugs for that.

but where it really kills me (and ppus in general) is when im fighting alone, or with just a couple of others (non ppu's). back when i was procity in earlier NC2 there was a group of tg tanks with a couple ppu's in plaza1, taunting people to come fight them it was at a bad time and we didnt have any ppu's. we cant kill them without a ppu. theres no way that i can see, we appear for one second and were parad+db'd and of course the fighters are all holy s/d with heals running.

i logged my tank ( my last procity char ) and of course im attacked by a ppu+tank(with red sl) as I walk out of my apt for the first time (allied). im para'd /db, dead slow with a cs out para'd and even if i could get a shot on him it would be near impossible to kill him with a ppu. im not saying every fight should be perfectly fair perfect duel intelligent fighting is good (attacking from behind, when they least expect it, etc) but fighting with a ppu is down right overpowered

when theres not big fights going down and you just want to have an enjoyable time, ppus and para ruin that. removing para is one step towards removing ppus and im all for it.

sultana

01-02-05, 07:48

It is level. You're as entitled to use a ppu with para as anyone else. Don't want to be a ppu? Why not? I killed my ppu because it was so violently boring to level up, maybe para is the reward for going through the painfully boring process of leveling up a ppu? And generally because ppus are so violently boring to play.

The playing field is level. It's not like some people are exploiting the mechanics to gain an advantage. You have the same possibility to use the same techniques as everyone else. For some reason you don't want that. And you can call it "stealthing noob", "lack of honor" or "noob buffs". You are as much allowed to use those tools as anyone else. If you don't use them, it just means that you don't want to adapt. What you apparently want is for everyone to play the way you want to, not the way they want to. You basically demand people to entertain you on your conditions without realizing that people are not here to entertain you. I'm here to entertain myself and my friends.

Note. I don't mean that we should just shut up and accept all game mechanics that are thrown at us, but there is a fine line between constructively suggesting improvement and loudly demanding compliance to your whims.
The reward for levelling up a ppu is being pratically unkillable in most situations.

Stealth and nib buffs aren't apart of this thread, its about parashock in general, not ppus and whatever else.

I'm against parashock as it removes a certain skill level from the game. It actually takes skill to hit someone moving so and so fast, using a parashock removes that skill. If you can't hit someone moving at their full speed, maybe you should practice a little more, if you can, then why should you be for parashock still being in game?

Drones hit by chain fired Holy Lightning: You receive a drug flash like effect that removes your ability to fly the drone, you can't even see your heads up display to know if you're about to blow up, or managed to fly behind something. Not to mention the APU's ability to hit your drone through walls and halfway across a zone. Remove this, it inhibits your ability to kill the other guy.
In my experience, its really the other way around, drones tend to warp through objects like nothing else, and sit in mid air. So while you sit there chain firing you hl, when it actually has moved out of range, then dissapears. Not to mention that a drone has larger range then an APU's hl does, meaning you can just sit so high in the sky and pound away.

Then lets bring into the equation that drones seem to have the resists of a well setup tank, and can heal aswell. As well as being hard as hell to aim at.

hegemon

01-02-05, 09:15

I'm against parashock as it removes a certain skill level from the game.

That's not true. Dealing with parashock requires a lot of skill. Skill to know when it's coming, skill to run away even though you can barely move, skill to react fast and eat the drugs, skill to know when the drug flash is coming. Skill that people obviously don't want to learn.

I hate getting a para on me. I hate the feeling of helplessness. But I understand that it's a challange. I hate dying too, and the SI hit after death, I hate dropping my PA once a day or so. But you don't see my crying about that, because I know that without a challenge, Neocron would be as boring and as useless as Counterstrike and I stopped playing that three-four years ago for a good reason.

sultana

01-02-05, 09:56

That's not true. Dealing with parashock requires a lot of skill. Skill to know when it's coming, skill to run away even though you can barely move, skill to react fast and eat the drugs, skill to know when the drug flash is coming. Skill that people obviously don't want to learn.
How skillful can it possibly be? It's either, chew a drug, yell out for an antipara, in your case stealth or die. And really, the only "skill" people don't seem to want to learn... is how to aim.

I hate getting a para on me. I hate the feeling of helplessness. But I understand that it's a challange. I hate dying too, and the SI hit after death, I hate dropping my PA once a day or so. But you don't see my crying about that, because I know that without a challenge, Neocron would be as boring and as useless as Counterstrike and I stopped playing that three-four years ago for a good reason.
You call killing someone whos glued to the floor an unable to move a challenge? Or you even call being killed like that a challenge?

Dr Strange

01-02-05, 09:58

I'll give up paraglue when spies give up stealth

MaGn0lia

01-02-05, 10:06

A talk about para, how can I refuse to post?

Well my contribution to the subject is this.

1:
Originally ment for PPU escape purposes, I think everyone agree with me that PPUs (especially high level why do the low level paras egsist they are useless in PvP and all para is useless in PvE) don't need escape "tool" since if there is one attacker and one PPU the PPU can easily outheal/buff/run the attacker (even as low as 10 rank lower than the attackers rank, still PPU can survive hell even my hyb could survive a tank attack without attacking back, I just ran away).

2:
Too often are para/freeze used as "sucker" shot to the back when the opponent is not aware of the threat, is this good strategy? can this be avoided? no, no and no. This can't be avoided as long as the game has para, this is a valid strategy as long as the game has para. the only reason for paralyzation tools (I call them tools, since they are not weapons) is to give the upperhand to the attacker and in this case if someone is attacked with para it means that two man attack team is coming your way, no PPU monk is going to para you and come heal spam you to the bitter death.

solutions:
There are more than one solution to the problem at hand. First remove it, a popular debate among veterans and newbies alike. Valid solution if you ask me, I have played almost capped PPU and can say I didn't need it THAT much, I used it ofcourse, it was my means to an end, victorious end.
Give para to all, para mods/ammo, freeze tools, freeze everything, you can imagine where this leads, a slowmotion combat, not so matrix style.
Nerf the para? I think there has been enough nerfing from side to side and none of it helped, it is the time for drastic measures, experimentation. How wrong you can go in your quest of finding a solution to a problem? Yeah, few times you have to kick the sand to find a treasure, few times indeed.

One of the things I have tought up to go around this is a flashbang and flash spell. They blind the opponent for mere two seaconds in which time the opponent only sees white, he can still run fast and is hard to hit. And believe or not, THIS actually let's the PPU get away, now think of this, PPU and SPY are in the wastes, spy whips out his HL and starts blazing away, PPU paras the SPY and starts running, what good does it to the PPU against a gun with million mile range, damn, you can shoot the Irata space colony with it from here. The spy just laughs as he blazes the back of the running monk, now he can get away, he is a PPU afterall, but then there are the not so glorious occasions when the PPU doesn't get away. Now with flash, he could get away, the opponent is disoriented and blind, he has two seaconds to find a cover plus the few seaconds the guy is trying to figure which way is which (if he moved his mouse). A valid tactic, eh? And no back shooting, for the flash to work you have to face the opponent, which gives the GOOD players the possibility to dodge the flash spell. Everyone is happy.

Thank you

tiikeri

01-02-05, 13:00

Remove para, and then see the whinzors on forums:

"NERF PPU, NOBODY CAN'T FUCKING KILL EM" !!!!1111oneoneoneetc..

Change this, and you'll have to change that..

There's no point removing para as long as stuff like clipping exists..

Anyone running around UG or trees???...

This thread is useless, ppl are just trying to get rid of para for their own good..yes, para is a killing tool, and that's what it should be in the future, or else all we can see is PAless ppus running around trees and UGs and healing everybody and never dying.

Oh yeah.. soon s 1 says ONOS U GOT ANTIBUFF.. yeahyeahsuresurewhatever.. it's not that hard to survive if you see the antibuff ´being casted on u. Even i can do it, even tho i suck ppuing.. and don't start whining about get some skills..i've killed more ppus on my apu than all the whining CSkiddoes together have seen pussy IRL.

If something needs a fix in this game it's clipping. Ppl running around UG,trees,buildings what ever they can see when they see the fierce antibuff coming, clipping raptors, clipping cliffs and hills... clippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclip ping....hey mommy.. i learned a new word today and it's so funny. It's called clippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclippingclipping.. etc.
(I think the game itself is quite nicely balanced and would be joyable to play without all these synchs and all other bugs, with para. [And PE's could prolly use a something.. cause they'r pretty useless])

Edit: Quite many UGs and trees... who cares, sue me.

Edit2: _o/ Magnolia, u still hang around? :)

mishkin

01-02-05, 13:10

One of the things I have tought up to go around this is a flashbang and flash spell. They blind the opponent for mere two seaconds in which time the opponent only sees white, he can still run fast and is hard to hit. And believe or not, THIS actually let's the PPU get away, now think of this, PPU and SPY are in the wastes, spy whips out his HL and starts blazing away, PPU paras the SPY and starts running, what good does it to the PPU against a gun with million mile range, damn, you can shoot the Irata space colony with it from here. The spy just laughs as he blazes the back of the running monk, now he can get away, he is a PPU afterall, but then there are the not so glorious occasions when the PPU doesn't get away. Now with flash, he could get away, the opponent is disoriented and blind, he has two seaconds to find a cover plus the few seaconds the guy is trying to figure which way is which (if he moved his mouse). A valid tactic, eh? And no back shooting, for the flash to work you have to face the opponent, which gives the GOOD players the possibility to dodge the flash spell. Everyone is happy.

Wow, that's one great idea. Shouldn't be too hard to implement either...
There are actually spells kinda like this ingame already, but for PvM-use only. You know those "distract mind" or "distract creature" or what the hell they're named? I hope kk would do this, remove para, and then add these flash-spells. Would make it alot more interesting to be a ppu :)

Maester Seymour

01-02-05, 13:35

Original monk

01-02-05, 13:42

i hope ya cannot flashspam anyone then :) or people gonna ask to nerf the flash in notime :)

altough i like alternatives like this i dont like flashes in general .. same as with counterstrike .. the problem isnt that you cant do anything for a sec .. problem is the flash hurts youre eyes lol (especially the counterstrikeflash is crazy and will get people blind lol)

but this can be solved ffcourse, by not such a bright flash, or a drugflash kinda flash i dunno :) altough i bet a flash can be atleast as annoying as a freeze but i dunno, didnt saw it in nc yet so i wouldnt know :)

enjoy playing and thinking out idea's on how to improve player experience with or witouth parashock :)

Xer

01-02-05, 13:47

The flash sounds interesting.. possibly it could have more of a dimming affect, than a bright affect? (I get a headache from using fusion cannons, geeze that needs a nerf! it's blinding each time one goes off..)
But the idea is good, rather than rendering the target 'vulnerable' and 'defenceless' as people have called it here, it would render them 'useless' for a time, but not instant death as such. Just puts them off for a moment or two, scares them..?

MaGn0lia

01-02-05, 14:57

Edit2: _o/ Magnolia, u still hang around? :)

It's a bad habbit, when I start a browser I automatically check my email and login here :D From time to time I heed the call for champion and rush to the scene with my godlike knowledge (yeah I'm egomaniac just like all finnish).

I my self have tought about the flashbang idea mostly because games like counter-strike and true combat, they are great for assaults when people storm a room but they are not overpowered since I have a refexive dodge, when I hear the distinctive "clink" sound the flashbang does I automatically turn my pov away from the grenade and spare my toon from nasty flash effect. It's relatively easy to dodge (unlike in real world). But against an unaware opponent or airbombardment (throw the flash so high that it explodes in midair hence no "clink" sound = flashed toon and frag).

Another escape method would be (again a real world method) a smoke grenade, but knowing the particle engine behind neocron it wouldn't be that "hot" idea, besides with the 100mph running speeds you could easily clear from the are to a better shooting position.

One of the things I hated over everything (and was ultimately one of the reasons I left NC) was para, that added with the fact that sometimes you can't hear the spell sounds nor see the effect, you just realize that you are frozen to the ground and someone is tearing you apart with HL, usually I just give up, and send a message to my clan that I died and where I died, I find that much more effectively used time than helplessly fighting paralyzed against unbeatable foe.

Richard Blade

01-02-05, 16:56

In my experience, its really the other way around, drones tend to warp through objects like nothing else, and sit in mid air. So while you sit there chain firing you hl, when it actually has moved out of range, then dissapears. Not to mention that a drone has larger range then an APU's hl does, meaning you can just sit so high in the sky and pound away.

Then lets bring into the equation that drones seem to have the resists of a well setup tank, and can heal aswell. As well as being hard as hell to aim at.

I know what you are talking about, but it really happens both ways.
Try droning against a certain TG clan on Terra. Their APU's have shot my drones from miles away, and through hills and walls. I'm not saying they are cheating, I rather imagine it's a clipping issue.

But, the absurdity of my statements were there to extend the absurdity of saying that Para reduces the ability of a character to play. Many things in this game are meant to reduce someones ability to fight. Death, other peoples bullets / plasma blobs / Holy Lightning, etc. Para is just another weapon.

Nobody has stated a really good reason against other than some heart felt hatred at something they can't get around. At least, not without paying a small price like drug flash, or actually needing a PPU's help to remove the effects.
It's a team game, not a solo shooter. You can't have and do everything.

Bugs Gunny

01-02-05, 16:58

How about we introduce a gun that upon hitting the target makes him totaly blind for 30 secs. Yes, you can use a drug to take care of it, but next hit you get blinded again.
So if a team has that guy with him, they're sure to win, even without a ppu.

Mr Kot

01-02-05, 19:18

Why not make a real anti-para drug or spell? ........ why not have drugs and buffs that provide a temporary shield (say, the antipara spell provides total immunity to parashock for 120 seconds or something).

There was one such spell. The holy catharsis sanctum. R.I.P.

LTA

01-02-05, 20:02

There was one such spell. The holy catharsis sanctum. R.I.P.
Strange feelin that will be a woc item O_o

Morganth

01-02-05, 20:50

Strange feelin that will be a woc item O_o

Hope so, would give PPUs a reason to level past cap.

hegemon

01-02-05, 20:52

You call killing someone whos glued to the floor an unable to move a challenge? Or you even call being killed like that a challenge?

No, I call surviving that a challenge. Don't twist my words.

Jesterthegreat

01-02-05, 22:47

paolo escobar

02-02-05, 01:07

Para has to go, it ruins all forms of pvp

Too many ppl turn up too op fights with double the numbers that the enemy has and still spamm para like it was going out of fashion.
Well i got news for the para lovers, it never was in fashion, as long as i've played nc para has been considered as lame as its users. Its spoils what otherwise could be a good fight.

But it extends far beyond op fights. Possibly the most annoying situation is when u come across a apu/ppu team lookin for a fight and they still para you.
To me that just says that the ppu is not confident in his/her own skills.

Last night i was alone when i was attacked by 2 ppu's and 2 apu's. Ok fair enough, i was pissed that i'd managed to run into them and knew i was going to die, but i thought i'll give it my best shot.
Seconds later both ppu's para'd me.
Like i stood any kind of chance then with 2 apu's hitting me with Holy Lightning are full rate of fire.
Did they need to para me? No
The ppu's could of kept the apu's alive and the fight may have lasted longer than 10 seconds.
In the end i am sure it was alot of fun for them, attacking an almost stationary target.
I think nc would be a better place without para.

Clownst0pper

02-02-05, 01:30

Are we still on about parashock?

Ive just come over all Deja Vu..

KK never learn....Remove it already!!!!

StrongSad

02-02-05, 06:48

Coming from a person in a clan who's apu's and tanks couldn't hit the broad side of a barn without para, this is expected.

hahaha, its so true. Of course some people will want to keep para, they would suck otherwise and it makes them feel better about themselves.

I've watched every vote on this topic (how could I not?) and it's never been a landslide, nor is it now. Keep an open mind.

It may not be a landslide, but just look at all the keep para people. They are the hegemon type players who use overpowered weapons in games to boost their own self confidence. Its actually really sad. "Those" people account for a major reason why the NC ingame community reallly sucks at times.

That being said, it is good to know that KK will be discussing the problem, yes it clearly is a problem.

Is anyone else still confused as to why para was so uber boosted in NC2??

Terayon

02-02-05, 07:04

Parashock is a stratagy used in fights. If it is tuned properly it could help add dimension to big fights. It shouldent slow aiming down, thats a given. The must it should affect runspeed is say... 33% or so. That would probably be a good start. Dont like my ideas? Come up with some others that are better besides removing it all together.

MaGn0lia

02-02-05, 08:35

But, the absurdity of my statements were there to extend the absurdity of saying that Para reduces the ability of a character to play. Many things in this game are meant to reduce someones ability to fight. Death, other peoples bullets / plasma blobs / Holy Lightning, etc. Para is just another weapon.

Excuse me but I found a loophole in what you were saying. The things you mentioned (Death, other peoples bullets / plasma blobs / Holy Lightning, etc.) are not means to hinder others play, but in fact means to fight against, except death, death is one of the conditions you fight for, death of your opponent.
Now Para/Freeze is just for making someone crippled, it's not a tool to fight with (not anymore atleast, thank god, the damage of holy para was way off the radar) it is just to give you a HUGE upperhand in combat. Pretty much that a spell that removes all resists or spell that removes your ammo from your weapon, it makes the opponent unable to defend for himself ergo not a weapon but a class based upperhand.

@Terayon:

I for one think removing para all together is a valid course of action in this case, we have seen KK try to do their magic on the situation several times, and like I said in one of my previous posts, it is time for drastic measures, time to experiment. KK didn't try to find a solution for hybrids to preserve them in their current form, nor did they just try to tweak them, they just made a radical decision of no more hybrids, well in the traditional sense, and it worked well in the situation.

now I agree with the "para is a valid strategy" in case it is a big fight and both sides are prepared, with ppus and anti-para drugs and so on. But it is not a valid strategy in a normal PvP fight where there are two monks (apu/ppu) against one or two guys. And this is why we should rethink the situation, normal PvP is way more common than big op fights.

Terayon

02-02-05, 08:47

Well the problem is kk have already made it clear that its not going to be removed. Besides dmg boost is the same deal, its just balanced. I mean kk have made tonnes of weapons and items around parashock. Removing them all together seems... narrowminded. There is alot of work gone to waste. I see where you are ocming from though.

Also hybrids are viable and kk has made them as they are now. They removed the apy minuses ppu and such and changed the reqs around when all they had to do was make apu and ppu cancel each other out. KK decided to keep hybrids in the end, not eliminate them.

now I agree with the "para is a valid strategy" in case it is a big fight and both sides are prepared, with ppus and anti-para drugs and so on. But it is not a valid strategy in a normal PvP fight where there are two monks (apu/ppu) against one or two guys. And this is why we should rethink the situation, normal PvP is way more common than big op fights.

I never said parashock was a VALID tactic as it is now. It is a stratigy. And right now all it does is annoy people. I said it could add to the game instead of take away with some adjustments. If kk dont want to change para in any way, then please remove it.

sultana

02-02-05, 10:49

I don't see how it particularily "adds" to the games, it has 2 purposes in my mind. One is to help kill those annoying stealthing spys (figures it takes one imbalanced item to combat another) and of course, to nerf the runspeed and sensitivity, of whoever it hits, to hell and back. Parashock was, and most likely will never be, a part of this games strategy, all it does it make it stupidly easier for those who can't aim.

Terayon

02-02-05, 11:05

It could be used to slow your oponent down, but doing so will sacrifice time you could be using to damage your oponent, or heal your allies. Thats where strategy comes into play. Right now parashock is just to powerfull so of course everyone will use it. It needs to be balanced, not removed.

Masentaja

02-02-05, 11:32

paolo escobar

02-02-05, 11:45

How about an idea, that when PPU casts para on someone, he has to maintain the para. IE , I cast para on tank, while maintaining it,I can't do anything else, which makes me a sitting target. If I move, switch spells, the para disappears. It would add nice new points to pvp :P

Although this kind of scripting could be hard in Neocrons engine ? O_o

Well that woud be fine with me, cos noone would use para then, thus it would be as good as removing it from the game anyway.

Also usin para to kill stealth spys, i've heard alot of ppl saying that it is one of the para spells uses. DB is just as good and any self respecting spy should have anti DB and para drugs on them anyway.

Xylaz

02-02-05, 11:53

Well that woud be fine with me, cos noone would use para then, thus it would be as good as removing it from the game anyway.

Also usin para to kill stealth spys, i've heard alot of ppl saying that it is one of the para spells uses. DB is just as good and any self respecting spy should have anti DB and para drugs on them anyway.

due to relatively low transport i cant have more than 7 antidb and antishock drugs (amongst the others) - 7 drugs will last for 1-2 fights. If the ppu like to piss me off he just para spam me untill i'm ran out of antishock drugs.

Yesterday i've popped all 7 drugs before i've died to a ppu+tank team. They didnt even attack me at first, just keep paraspamming untill i ran out of drugs - then, glued to the floor, DBed, drugflashed i stood and a tank just came closer and start to shooting me from point blank...

that's how para works

sultana

02-02-05, 12:25

I meant more along the lines of paraing them, then running them into the range of your true sight before they can drug. Though with the true sight as it is, is sometimes doesn't work then even :rolleyes:

It could be used to slow your oponent down, but doing so will sacrifice time you could be using to damage your oponent, or heal your allies.
Yes, the huge 2 seconds it takes to cast para. And besides most poeple realise that you try and para someone after your team is right for heals and s/d's, unless of course you have that many ppus it doesn't matter.

Zheo

02-02-05, 12:31

People do not need to justify their reasons if they don't want to. Just because the most vocal segment of the community dislikes the freeze effect doesn't make it a done deal that it should be removed - 60 something percent of the vote is not landslide by any stretch of the imagination.

This topic always tends to cause aggravation so I'm asking you all now to calm down and discuss it calmly otherwise this thread will go the same way as many others in the past.

I have noted that this is a concern and it has been added to the agenda for my next meeting so it's getting some attention. That doesn't in any way mean that in a few days time I'll be announcing the end of freezers or even that anything will change at all, it just means that we're to discuss it. I've also taken on board that a compromise (such as not slowing down turn speed) might go some way to addressing the issue.

N

Nidhogg I have one thing to say on this subject, Parashock removes the skill in fighting as you basically become a sitting duck. However, any experineced player will tell you if you die from para it's because you where stupid enough to go into battle with no anti shock drugs :) So para is not a gang tool it's a weapon which has a counter weapon.

Problem solved nah? Well maybe not, I think the anti shock should be cheaper and sold more widely since it took me about 3 months to find it and I only did that while looking for an ammo sale's man. I only know one place that sells them so far but i'm searching for others!

Zheo

Terayon

02-02-05, 12:59

It could be used to slow your oponent down, but doing so will sacrifice time you could be using to damage your oponent, or heal your allies.

Yes, the huge 2 seconds it takes to cast para. And besides most poeple realise that you try and para someone after your team is right for heals and s/d's, unless of course you have that many ppus it doesn't matter.

Note how i said COULD? As in with balancing?

sultana

02-02-05, 13:54

Wouldn't really matter, as most people would just bring another ppu to parashock, not that they already do :rolleyes:

The only really way I see it being balanced is if it either completely taken out of the game, or completely reworked, such as Masentaja's idea. Though that still leads to the problem of people just bringing more ppu's. I'd like the idea altered to say a 50 mana (maybe even less) cost, then say a 25-50 per second mana usage after that, while in use. So it is used to kill those ppu's at the end, stealthing spys or whatever, not just randomly whenever the player/ppu see's fit.

MaGn0lia

02-02-05, 14:04

People do not need to justify their reasons if they don't want to. Just because the most vocal segment of the community dislikes the freeze effect doesn't make it a done deal that it should be removed - 60 something percent of the vote is not landslide by any stretch of the imagination.

The funny thing about this is that even if 100% of the community counting even the silent ones that are not in the forums, the odds are against removal of para. KK has shown that they stand by the documents their designer made and are keeping it intact to the bitter end.

Why not do the same to para what they did to spirit mods, and make them vanish? Sure they got whine, but who remembers them anymore? Tell me HOW this issue differs from the spirit mods? They were unbalancing, spirit mod flame wars like para flame wars have been seen on the forums. So how KK can do something in one place but not do it in one similar case? I wouldn't mind bringing back Carth sanctum but take away para, as I see it, carth never was such an unbalancing power as para is, no matter the situation.

Where do these rediculous decisions come from, is there an infinite well of bad answers and idiocy where they just surface. Good god, if it creates this much grief that there are literally hundreds of people asking for it to be removed or something done about it so yeah, as an advice I would say to Mods, GMs and KK to take a good look about it, it's not like we are japping about it because we don't have anything else to do, it's because it is a serious pain in the ass.

Kopaka

02-02-05, 14:07

How about this...
remove the drugflashes from the antishock drugs, make them like 50% cheaper, OR
make the para RoF the same as Truesight RoF (AND mana, like 300ish or something)

that way it'll cost you too many boosters to paralyse something, specially if you miss your target.
and with the lower RoF, the PPU actually has to stand still in order to cast otherwise it'll fail (I stand still when I click, not a second later im running and the para will still cast)

Xer

02-02-05, 14:15

I think thats an excellent suggestion from Masentaja, i just hope KK take note of whats been said here and use it to help with things, but the idea suggested completely flips the coin on the para, making it much more even, in that you sacrifice the support from the PPU to give the upper hand in combat. This makes both playeres involved a possible target, much more even. The only flaw i can see in this is that drugs would have to be reworked, or even taken out aswell.
It could also be implemented in rifles/cannons/pistols too!! Maybe a stream of blue goop can kinda hook onto the target and follow them from the end of your gun, then you have to keep the target in range, and accuracy would play a factor too! The length of the para effect could be relative to the ammo in the clip (which would need reworking too, maybe 10 ammo = 10 seconds? this means it runs out pretty quick, and you need to aquire target lock again and range to get any kind of 'spam' effect? much more tricky :P) This also means that with the guns, rather than a melee tank zapping you and hacking you to bits, he would need a friend to help kill the target, but this could be tricky, as it makes 1 on 1 pvp a little more difficult, i can see melee tanks complaining actually, even if they run faster than most even with their swirly kitchen utensils out..
Just another idea, an addition to Masentaja's idea of course. But like it has been said, it could be hard to implement i guess..

E. Cryton

02-02-05, 14:16

1.) remove antidrug-flash
2.)make antidrugs cheaper
3.) if the freeze failes, it freeze the casting person/freezing melee tank/whatever.
maybe that would avoid the fucking freezespamming melee tanks.

Kopaka

02-02-05, 14:20

3.) if the freeze failes, it freeze the casting person/freezing melee tank/whatever.
maybe that would avoid the fucking freezespamming melee tanks.

Eric Einstein..

this idea is prolly the best i heard yet

btw, Thunderbolt, Holy Para.. their shock is way better than Thunderstorm.. reduce Thunderbolt + Holy Para to Thunderstorm lvl and then decrease it another 75%

Dribble Joy

02-02-05, 16:25

How about an idea, that when PPU casts para on someone, he has to maintain the para. IE , I cast para on tank, while maintaining it,I can't do anything else, which makes me a sitting target. If I move, switch spells, the para disappears. It would add nice new points to pvp :P

Although this kind of scripting could be hard in Neocrons engine ? O_o
No. Para itself is still in.

However that is a good idea for dmg boost.... possibly....

Though I don't want to accuse/stereotype. It's highly likely that the majority of those people who voted to keep it in know full well it ruins PvP, is completely unfair and gives them an absolute advantage over the victims. They want to use it, for PvP, for ganking, probably because they can't imagine being able to survive without it.
Same sort of people that don't want PPUs fixed.

Of course they will in response to that say that those who want it removed are whiners who need to get some skills :rolleyes:.

Clownst0pper

02-02-05, 16:26

Those who need parashock to kill others are terrible players.

It really is that simple.

StrongSad

03-02-05, 05:27

I 2nd that

MaGn0lia

03-02-05, 08:50

Well, the fact is that I have had my ass saved few times with para, I have to say that, and I think many of you have to agree with me there, para saves people. BUT I have had myself killed thousands of times WITH para, one of the funniest thing was that when the para damage was insane back in NC1 I was leveling my pistol PE (they were great back then) finally rank 20 and I'm off to cores in TH to do some exp, when I run there this TT PPU came across me and I tought "PPU I don't think he tries to heal me to death, nor can I hurt him, I think he is part of a raiding group coming here AGAIN" so I pass by and keep running when *blam* I'm stuck to the ground and the monk keeps spamming me from holy para max range, I crouch and whip my uzi and try to gnaw his health away I allmost got like 5 points worth of health till I was dead, by para spamm.

So some improvement has happened atleast you can't kill lowbies with para anymore :)
But bit more improvement is needed so you can't just make statues out of people and hack them away with a sword, like many ppus do, whats up with that? I have seen literally hundreds of high level runners (good PVPrs and bad PVPrs) tell in chat that some PPU somewhere in the wastes just paraed them damageboosted and killed them with a noobie sword, oh joy. This happens to the lowbies even more commonly.

There are testservers you know, why not remove para from there and see how it all goes down. I'm positive that it can't ruin everything.

Original monk

03-02-05, 10:13

Why not do the same to para what they did to spirit mods, and make them vanish? Sure they got whine, but who remembers them anymore?

i remember em :/ yust as i remember my 4 diffrent kami's :/ (3 actually because a day before they removed kami's i would of traded for the last one ... if they removed the kami's a day later (think it was a few days before NC2 retail ..) i would of lost an extra ds and a few mill .. not that i didnt lost em anyway in that rollbackthingie on saturn when i was on fotokina for that 1 afternoon you could bring anything in order :/)

same as with cpr's and some nice slotted catharsis sanctum's (remind me i gotta lom away some mst on my ppu)

now ontopic again: by above i dont wonna say that they shouldnt remove para :) magnolia is right in the post above here, parashock saved my but numerous times but it killed my ass even more :)

try it out i would say, then buggs's pure aghility/ath tank gonna be even more viable :)