View Full Version : Vehicles for all
This is an insanely large change that ive mentioned sometime, a long time ago, in the past im sure.
While weapon specialisation, hacking, implanting all seem sensible to limit a charachter to one or two of these skills at most, vehicle use does not fit in at all. Mechanised Combat should be a Mainskill. Every one of us should be able to learn to use a vehicle alongside our 'on-foot' skills. It'd be so much cooler because you would see a lot more armour in battle. (lets face it , none of us *really* want the few % drop on our stats for a vehicle)
You would probably get biker gangs and stuff then, because nearly everyone would have at least one prefered vehicle they used. Which is far more in tune with the whole theme of the game.
Theoretically you could break the skill down into things like :
Bike Class (Hovers, Chaintechs,)
Heavy Class (Tanks, APC's)
Light Class (Cars, 4x4's)
Hover Class (Hover Flyers, could be used with hovertecs too)
Glider Class (Gliders (high speed air))
It just seems a bit nuts that in the future, so few can drive...
Its radical, and there is way too much for KK to do right now, but what do you think of this, and more importantly if you dont like it, what about it would you do differently ?
Remember this advantage will be given to everyone, (in different distributions most probably)
Heavyporker
27-01-05, 15:14
To put it simply.
No.
This would reduce the usage of vehicles even lower.
This would reduce the usage of vehicles even lower.
Howso ? :confused:
I agree with you. it's as simple as you've put it. if you want a uber char, VHC doesn't come into the equasion. we all strive to perfect ourselves in one area, and that disincludes many things. ok sure, if I want to be an uber MC tank I won't want to use HC, or do any form of cst\imp\res, but by damn vehicles need their own main skill. it's so useless right now, you can't even operate most of them. I'm not saying I want a variant where one person alone can be a pro pistolero, and then again you see him eating the dirt in a huge tank blasting everything away with his cannon, but just make it more viable. thats all I'm asking. most of the vehicles come out now in a combat and noncombat version, with skills you could specialize in operating the non-combat version, the combat ones will require other skills. bikes and trikes would be solo fast fireing vehicles, someone maybe wants vehicles like that, jeeps and sorts would be fast firing, agile and still be able to carry more than one pearson, tanks would be slow moving and firing, but can take massive punishment, and so on. in times like these, only 2 kinds of people use vehicles. ones which are nerfing themselves because they strive in 7 different areas, or people who are ready to sacrifice one of their alts to expirience it, they want to hunt in their vehicles etc. I like to revert a bit to SWG, where having a vehicle isn't such a commodity, it's as necessary as having an appartment, a radar... etc.
it's as necessary as having an appartment
You'd think in a post-apocalyptic world, a vehicle to traverse the irradiated wastes would be just that, necessary.
OMG W00t ! 600 posts !
Bugs Gunny
27-01-05, 15:29
Nope, i prefer not seeing too many other rhinos around :-)
The reqs on doy carrier and doy assualt glider are nuts, but the rest (except maybe the assault scorpion trike) are reasonable.
You don't gimp chars too much if you spec some driving.
You'd think in a post-apocalyptic world, a vehicle to traverse the irradiated wastes would be just that, necessary.
OMG W00t ! 600 posts !
yes, in a world such as neocron where replication costs are high, traveling by foot time consuming, not to mention many places which can't be accessed by teleportation [be it faction restricted, or such a technology isn't present there], vehicles are a necissity.
Nope, i prefer not seeing too many other rhinos around :-)
But bearing in mind you'd probably have your own too, seeing as it would be crazy not to drive when you had a mainskill and points that couldnt go elsewhere, so you could have a tank battle :D
(Or you happen to be a tank driver ?)
your missing the point, no one is saying we want to see 4 rhinos in each zone, we're saying we want to see vehicles being more viable. and yes, you do nerf your char for vehicles! if it means loosing 10 dmg points on your tl 105 weapon it's nerfing, and many people will go for better damage than to be able to use a vehicle. why shouldn't everyone be able to drive a vehicle? rhinos and such would still require TC and HC for cannon operation, but the guy driving it won't require VHC but rather a skill for operating heavy vehicles. what, not everyone will be driving a trike around the wastes, atleast not the combat version.
this would have multiple uses, it would create a market for vehicles again, people would gain and loose them, it's not like everyone will have a vehicle and you'd be left out in the rain, hell get one for yourself and family members too, a perfect birthday gift - the new quad? what are you guys so worried about?
THE_TICK!!!!
27-01-05, 15:46
unfortunately most people just GR to where they want to go..but i for one ..used the old hover quite a bit when all gr's are closed...i think the map needs to be a bit bigger for lots of vehicle usage.
this could only make the game richer in content, and add more randomly interesting things that can happen to you.
Bugs Gunny
27-01-05, 15:53
I just don't see how people can complain about having a shortage of driver. EVERY tradeskiller is a perfect PILOT.
Monks can drive revelers without gimping, so can tanks.
The only gimped people are rifle and pistol spies and pe's.
You can't have everything on all your chars.
If you want a versatile char, make a hc pe.
Realisticly yes, but this isnt real life. This is a game. Vehicle use should still be a skill for only those sacrificing other skills for the ability to drive vehicles. Plain and simple.
Voted No.
That would mean that everyone could specialise in vehicles without penalty, we'd all be the same.
You wanna excel? then lose points in other areas, it works better, makes for a bigger challeng setting up a char.
Thats kinda like saying the fact everyone can use a weapon makes us all the same tho isnt it ? Different people = different guns, different people = different vehicle preference.
What isnt suggested is that everyone can drive all vehicles, just everyone can drive at least one vehicle (say a bike) with no req's (so maybe, just give basic bikes no REQ), As for having mechanized combat as a mainskill, the difference between players would be thier type of vehicle, bike/glider/tank/etc/etc/ , not just 'do they drive or not', which is just yes/no. This isnt 'specialising' in vehicles, its just a given thing that EVERYONE has, Like running and walking. (and if everyone has it, it cant be unfair really...) this is now specialising in a specific vehicle. (Added diversity, which is what we constantly need)
Perhaps if they brought in vehicle customisation this would be more viable, you then have your custom char, with your custom weapon, and your custom vehicle. thus the more unique your identity becomes.
If anyone is thinking this would personally disadvantage them id be interested to know how, If everyone gets it, current drivers get thier points back, and non-drivers get the ability to drive (remember, this skill would have to be leveled etc).
No, very simply, cos yu still gotta learn to drive, true the air vehicles req are stupidly high for what they are and the heavy scorpian trike needs a cockpit cover (why it hasnt i still dont know)
also Shameless bump (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=121433)
this is why VHC needs to be properly implimented... (yu have to read to the end, i couldnt edit my original post on it - basically change the TC - VHC minus 10 points)
*prays to the all powerfull niddy to use the hammer on KK, beat some sence into them*
Heavyporker
27-01-05, 18:02
You're simply not getting it.
VHC as a skill is already enough.
Splitting VHC into 50000 vec type skills is simply fucked up in all respects.
Someone that has a license for a car pretty much knows the basic operation for a Volkswagon Bug just as well as for a BMW. That basic knowledge essentially carries over to bikes, etc. Sure, the controls change just a bit, but in all respects, its the same concept - turn key to activate vehicle , you steer with the big wheel/bar in front of you, you got the gas and the brake....
You're simply not getting it.
VHC as a skill is already enough.
Splitting VHC into 50000 vec type skills is simply fucked up in all respects.
Someone that has a license for a car pretty much knows the basic operation for a Volkswagon Bug just as well as for a BMW. That basic knowledge essentially carries over to bikes, etc. Sure, the controls change just a bit, but in all respects, its the same concept - turn key to activate vehicle , you steer with the big wheel/bar in front of you, you got the gas and the brake....
then add a clutch into the equation and we see all those who drive lazy automatics screw up royally. but yes VHC should stay VHC, no need to mess it up
I've gave up on all VHC's, except the hovertec, it's the only one that isn't too expensive and total gimpage to spec for....
The price of the Hover carriers/bombers is just stupid...
I could deal with the gimpage to drive one(it would be worth it), but they are just waaayyyy too expensive....
I think we can all agree that vehicles are one of the coolest things in neocron. But perhaps instead of making them useable without sacrifice, we could lower the price, so that people could afford to run them more often. I love rhinos, but am not going to bring it to each op war, if I die, I lose way too much money replacing it.
Edit - heh just as Spoon said
I feel that the only thing that really needs to be changed with vehicles is there should be a reduction of all VHC requirements by 12 (the current lower requirement of a vehicle). This would enable all to use the lowest vehicle and put the other vehicles in reach of a larger amount of people.
eg.
Chaincraft = 0 VHC
Hovertec = 13 VHC
Reveler = 25 VHC
Rhino = 50 VHC
Scout Glider = 76 VHC
All really more reasonable.
As for prices, I think they are about correct, the bikes that are comonly used are pritty damn cheap if you buy them from Phoenix of Heavyporker. The Rhino, although expensive is worth it price, just simple don't die!
I feel that the only thing that really needs to be changed with vehicles is there should be a reduction of all VHC requirements by 12 (the current lower requirement of a vehicle). This would enable all to use the lowest vehicle and put the other vehicles in reach of a larger amount of people.
eg.
Chaincraft = 0 VHC
Hovertec = 13 VHC
Reveler = 25 VHC
Rhino = 50 VHC
Scout Glider = 76 VHC
All really more reasonable.
As for prices, I think they are about correct, the bikes that are comonly used are pritty damn cheap if you buy them from Phoenix of Heavyporker. The Rhino, although expensive is worth it price, just simple don't die!
Now this is a good idea!
if I die, I lose way too much money replacing it.
Salvage th old key. Its the combat vehciles that seem daft prices, when you look at how much Phoenix sells the rest for (and they are accused of being overpricd)
Phoenix charge 130k for a h4x4 or 230k for a rhino.
NEXT FSM charges about 250k for a combat chaincraft, and 550k for a heavy scorpion...
You're simply not getting it.
VHC as a skill is already enough.
Splitting VHC into 50000 vec type skills is simply fucked up in all respects.
Someone that has a license for a car pretty much knows the basic operation for a Volkswagon Bug just as well as for a BMW. That basic knowledge essentially carries over to bikes, etc. Sure, the controls change just a bit, but in all respects, its the same concept - turn key to activate vehicle , you steer with the big wheel/bar in front of you, you got the gas and the brake....
Now I can see where your coming from, the issue wasnt the application here, i.e. how we did it, but more the concept 'VHC being a mainskill'. You are probably right that making it too complex would put people off, so why not 'ground based', 'air based' at most, if that. But giving people a guarunteed ability to use a vehicle, would surely not put them off ?
What I wanted to know was how people thought it *could* be worked.
What ive never understood is how the same skill that governs the use of a heavy tank for instance could develop into the ability to fly a light glider, they're pretty different. People who take advanced driving tests arent a step closer to thier pilots licence :confused: Likewise if you can fly, why does that automatically mean you can drive ?
But perhaps instead of making them useable without sacrifice, we could lower the price, so that people could afford to run them more often. I love rhinos, but am not going to bring it to each op war, if I die, I lose way too much money replacing it.
Absolutely. Buy once and vehicle can return to depot as 'wrecked', might give more business to reppers who could rep it for you then. I.E like, clans with 'engineers' not just repping armours, but the armoured backbone of a fighting force. Alternatively, A full rep price could just be 90% of full price (community decided percentage)
Well why not ditch all skills and make this game into an FPS?
ahhh hello ? lower skills on low level bikes ? ok come on, do anyone really think anyone would ride chainbikes without guns when they can WALK faster ?
the skills are kind of ok, its just the surroundings that need to be changed.
DRT is only 500c away maybe 4k... you can not repair a VHC for that money.
costs for GR need to be raised a lot outside of the city maybe let it depend on rang
venturewarp prize need to be lowerd.
thats just 2 things that need to be changed to make investing in VHC more attractive.(followed by a few more)
ill hate the slow cripple of any skill that is not involved in PSI,R-C,P-C,H-C.
think its fine as it is, but if vehicles were to get a change i would prefer it to be skill based and not sub skill based otherwise you would be seeing tanks using rhino tanks lol
ahhh hello ? lower skills on low level bikes ? ok come on, do anyone really think anyone would ride chainbikes without guns when they can WALK faster ?
Have you tried the chainbike lately? It was faster than I thought it used to be, a plesent surprise and defo faster than walking!
... a pleasant surprise and defo faster than walking!
compared to a usual PvP char its pretty slow because it is less maneuverable and you cant quickly react on threads in your back.
tere are allways players use them but the usual player is better without.
Dribble Joy
28-01-05, 20:53
ahhh hello ? lower skills on low level bikes ? ok come on, do anyone really think anyone would ride chainbikes without guns when they can WALK faster ?
I don't know why people keep saying vehicles are slower than walking.
Every vehicle I have seen in recent times moves far far faster than my PE will ever move.
I don't know why people keep saying vehicles are slower than walking.
Every vehicle I have seen in recent times moves far far faster than my PE will ever move. Your PE probably put on a few pounds after christmas though
I don't know why people keep saying vehicles are slower than walking....
not slower, but not fast enough. you reach every OP near NC faster with a tank on foot them a tank on bike (maybe even hover) when u reach the op on foot you just start killing without any care that your 250k baby get nuked by a bored monk or a FusionCannon Tank. the 20mm is good against monks but are only the hover let u strave and turn fast enough for equal PvP.
when u meet an enemy monk or rifle guy you have allmost no chance to flee because they blow you out of the sattle with with a poison and some lightning or long range weapon.
tanks are a lesser problem because they have a hard time to aim after they run a bit and as they usually dont have lasercannons or anti VHC guns you are able to take em out.
maybe thats only me because i suck in VHCvP but i only can kill ppl if they dont appear suddenly behind a corner.
Dribble Joy
28-01-05, 21:58
Hovertech: WAY WAY faster than a runner.
Wheeler: Faster
Reveler: Faster
Bike: Faster (I was at the race the other week, no way any runner could keep up)
Gliders: All much faster.
Reveler/chaincraft: Faster
Rhino: Pretty sure that in a straight line this thing is faster than a runner.
vehicles viable? no. yeah thank you very much for putting it out that all classes can drive most vehicles, but the diference is do you want to GIMP your char a bit or COMPLETELY. they just arent viable, do something about it. that doesn't have to mean you need to make new skills, no thats just a suggestion.
KK nice work on the quad, but don't think more than 50 people will be using it. using the higher req vehicles -> ultimate gimpage of all possible main skills. and for what? I've got better things to do than gimp one of my chars for expensive vehicles.
I don't know where they get this idea that people need brains to drive a freaking TANK! An armoured vehical should be driven by a gen-tank and gunned by one, they are after all soldiers and should be able to drive armoured fighting vehicals. Would look so right seeing 2 tanks jumping out of a rhino and killing everyone with the rhino giving fire support
I don't know where they get this idea that people need brains to drive a freaking TANK! ..... Would look so right seeing 2 tanks jumping out of a rhino and killing everyone with the rhino giving fire support
they get this from where they get the STR for VHC Guns thing, but you still need a drivers licence for them :D thats where most of the tanks fail.
a tank on the drivers seat is just a wast of recource. thats the place for the clan trader. and i dont think switchin' from driver to gunner was what KK had in mind when they build the rhino.
Shenyu Reza
29-01-05, 23:07
You'd think in a post-apocalyptic world, a vehicle to traverse the irradiated wastes would be just that, necessary.
OMG W00t ! 600 posts !
Ahahah !
I'm agree with u, why intelligence is allways required to drive? (sry my english :) )
vhc/str or vhc/dex can be cool to drive any vehicule (sry again :S )
Heavyporker
29-01-05, 23:20
What silliness is this?
Intelligence of any sort is required to operate a tool of any type.
Even in the case of a hammer, a smart person can do more work with it than some huge dumb brute with 60 inch biceps.
Dr Strange
30-01-05, 00:42
text
Sorry to get off topic (and I dont mean this as a flame) but you're aware your sig of numbers breaks the tables on the forum? Even at a higher resolution it stretches it out ;(
What silliness is this?
Intelligence of any sort is required to operate a tool of any type.
Even in the case of a hammer, a smart person can do more work with it than some huge dumb brute with 60 inch biceps.
It not silly it don't take a hugh amount of brain power to drive foot on the gas hands on steering wheel ?
well there is knowing when to shift, clutch, im guessing the 4x4 is actually a 4x4 and would have a low range, so that'd require more knowledge....
Well if people want this game to remain the way it is fine, no one in there right minds is going to spec the points to use them. You want to drive the best vehicals and fly the best gliders its as if you must make a character just for that task. No one is going to do that so the vehicals will remain useless till the end of cron ...
its not so much that you need too invest too much to use them, its because you need to ivest in other areas so much...specialisation...
Humm
My lowtech PE could easly drive a hovertech but that is it, anything higher I'm gimped. The same goes for anyother combat character if your too slow your going to get owned by tanks especialy Melee ones. So imo there just need to make agility and athletics have a greater affect so one only needs say 50 agility instead of 100 plus. Yeah 100 agility is alot but its what you need if you want any chance of being considered good at PvP, maybe they just need to make athletics have a greater affect ?
/EDIT I talk about agility because this would be the first thing I would lomm in order to drive a vehical
atm im pure PVP, no driving, hacking, anything, 88 Agi, 76 Psi use, 136 WL and 171 PC, and i still dont cap the judge, and i feel slow as fuck as is....and now i have most GRs even a hover's not worth it
Major Havoc
30-01-05, 13:50
Or just roll a Pilot, as several of us in our clan have.
The roll of the Pilot is just that, to be able drive *anything*, to be able to repair it whilst under fire, and to be able to recycle ammo for the gunners.
My pilot can't PvP, but that's not his role within the clan; it's also useful to have a half decent repairer along (100 +imps) to repair armour in the heat of a fight.
M'Havoc
What silliness is this?
Intelligence of any sort is required to operate a tool of any type.
Even in the case of a hammer, a smart person can do more work with it than some huge dumb brute with 60 inch biceps.
You could say intelligence is required for a lot of things that most chars can do by default, run, open doors, trade, but you dont have to spec your 'open door' skill to open doors, that'd be silly, and vehicle useage should be just another one of these granted abilities. Indeed, you *would* have to train this skill, and different classes yes, would indeed be capable of higher Mechanised Combat Mainskills, im *not* trying to say a tank can drive better than say a spy, but he *can* at least drive.
Perhaps link the subskills/mainskill of mechanised combat into turning response, acceleration, etc ? or something along those lines ? It could even incorportate STR/DEX/INT anyway. Which opens up more diversity again on the vehicle front.
i dont really like this idea of a new vehicle skills, what I do think should happen is, lower requirements on vehicles, and make lower level combat vehicles that are relatively cheap (not drone cheap but not much more), and start new drivers off with a combat vehicle. that way they could level in a vehicle from the start.
i dont really like this idea of a new vehicle skills, what I do think should happen is, lower requirements on vehicles, and make lower level combat vehicles that are relatively cheap (not drone cheap but not much more), and start new drivers off with a combat vehicle. that way they could level in a vehicle from the start.
Im totally with 'e' on this, the req's need bringing down, and so does the price :)
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