View Full Version : What is item tracking??
I know, flame me for being a NIB :lol:
But WTF is item tracking?!?!! I mean I know what item tracking is (at least I think I understadn the general concept), but i dont understand who we can do what we do ig an not have some type of item tracking system in place.
tia
Item tracking was supposed to be implented in NC2 but is not ingame yet...
It gives every item ingame a unique id, so for example if you dupe an item,
those two would then have the same id so KK can see that it has been duped.
Or if someone was to hack your account and steal all your shit, then they can
trace it to the person owning it now and at the end trace it back to whoever
took it in the first place.
A wonderful feature, but, as many other things, it was not completed when
NC2 launched so it was left out.
Momo Katzius
11-01-05, 16:11
Basicly Item Tracking is the ability to follow an item in the data storage subsystem. You can see, who owns that item, which "path" the item in it's history took and so on.
Item tracking was supposed to be implented in NC2 but is not ingame yet...
It gives every item ingame a unique id, so for example if you dupe an item,
those two would then have the same id so KK can see that it has been duped.
Or if someone was to hack your account and steal all your shit, then they can
trace it to the person owning it now and at the end trace it back to whoever
took it in the first place.
A wonderful feature, but, as many other things, it was not completed when
NC2 launched so it was left out.
So then, my 2 slot vein ripper is, in affect, the same as your 2 slot vein ripper? (assuming both ahve identical stats) I'm no game designer or programmer, but it seems to me ya cannot implement something of this magnitude and NOT ahve it.
8|
With ALL the fukkin items ig, it is truely staggering that there aren't more item issues then we have. I'm not saying we don't have item issues, but this seems a simple recipe for disaster to me . . .
Monolithic
11-01-05, 16:18
Not entirely sure what ya asking there mate.
Item tracking is (I think) about having a unique ID on each item so if stuff gets 'duped' the GMs can say "Oi! There's 2 of that... yer cheating... ban!"
I've not heard of duped items since a long time back. Last I heard about it was when Russian went on a massive rant (lasted for days!) as he discovered his newly purchased CS was one of a run of at least 8 CS's all made by the same person, with identical stats and even identical wear. That was at least 18 months back so not sure why its considered such a big deal now.
Unless I've got it wrong and item tracking is bout sommat different.
Monolithic
11-01-05, 16:21
LOL 2 responses in the time it took me to type my lil message. Gotta learn to type faster :D
I see now... allows you to track stuff stolen/hacked from you. Ah... much goodness :)
Let's have some item tracking then :cool:
It's really about a number of things:
Giving every item an identity that differentiates it from every other item, including other items of the same type. This isn't trivial as it requires the alteration of many data structures (database, message structures etc.) and all the code that uses them.
An audit log to record the movement of every item in the system. This means that if you give your CS to someone (or put it in a cab, for example), not only does the item in question be given a new owner, but also that a record of the transaction has been made.
The provision of support tools to make use of the collected data.
The creation of processes to handle tracking/lost item support calls
NC2's architecture already supports the addition of the item tracking software, unfortunately it just wasn't ready for prime time before NC2 was released. It's clear to see that reason two will add considerable load to the backend system in terms of database manipulation and storage which is why the item tracking database is hosted on its own dedicated server. Item tracking was announced in good faith but unfortunately it's not a trivial problem to solve.
N
Forget duping, hacks ( Not clever enough for that shit :lol: )
Item tracking would have really helped me when I lost items in gogo/transfer/cabbys etc. which where not replaced by GM's as
"lost items are not replaced"
even if you spend fucking ages getting it or lucky with slots etc.
It would show that i had 5 slot CS :) ( I wish) then i didn't :( no transfer etc.
So they could replace it!!
Dribble Joy
11-01-05, 18:33
I've not heard of duped items since a long time back.
*cough*spiritmods*cough*kamis*cough*
It's really about a number of things:
Giving every item an identity that differentiates it from every other item, including other items of the same type. This isn't trivial as it requires the alteration of many data structures (database, message structures etc.) and all the code that uses them.
An audit log to record the movement of every item in the system. This means that if you give your CS to someone (or put it in a cab, for example), not only does the item in question be given a new owner, but also that a record of the transaction has been made.
The provision of support tools to make use of the collected data.
The creation of processes to handle tracking/lost item support calls
NC2's architecture already supports the addition of the item tracking software, unfortunately it just wasn't ready for prime time before NC2 was released. It's clear to see that reason two will add considerable load to the backend system in terms of database manipulation and storage which is why the item tracking database is hosted on its own dedicated server. Item tracking was announced in good faith but unfortunately it's not a trivial problem to solve.
N
I can see having a log for every item would be a real space eater, would they have an expiry date, where all it's history save the last entry, would be deleted and the whole process restarted?
EG on a weekly basis?
day 1
1) Item created xxxxxx(item) - ID is a223
2)Current owner - bob
3)Traded to frank @, current owner, frank
day 2
Put in gogo
taken out
dropped in qb
hacked by - Fred, Current owner, fred
etc until a certain date where everything but the current owner and other relevant info is deleted, and the tracking log started over...
Sorry if it's nonsense, I'm sleeeepy!
darkservent
11-01-05, 19:08
BLOODY HELL, If KK explained the system like Nidhogg did then maybe just maybe a majority of us can understand the complexity of this system and wouldnt flame you for it.
That post answered a 100 million questions I had in mind of the system. KK look at ur mods they have the courtesy to tell us this info and you dont yourself. Damn!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
I can see having a log for every item would be a real space eater, would they have an expiry date, where all it's history save the last entry, would be deleted and the whole process restarted?
EG on a weekly basis?
day 1
1) Item created xxxxxx(item) - ID is a223
2)Current owner - bob
3)Traded to frank @, current owner, frank
day 2
Put in gogo
taken out
dropped in qb
hacked by - Fred, Current owner, fred
etc until a certain date where everything but the current owner and other relevant info is deleted, and the tracking log started over...
Sorry if it's nonsense, I'm sleeeepy!
That's too unreliable and really doesn't solve the problems that Item Tracking should. SWG has item tracking - each code is something like 10-12 digits in hexidecimal which gives a massive number of possible combinations. If you then allocate different tables for different types of items, it's possible to store forever (although there's a major speed and coding overhead)
Dribble Joy
11-01-05, 19:18
There isn't that much data needed really.
1. Item ID
2. Location of item (one ID for the owning account perhaps, another for the type of location (inv/QB/armour/cab)).
3. Log of the changes in #2.
Actual data involved per item would be minimal, it's just organising it all.
[ edited - this is a constructive discussion, not another bash thread ]
There isn't that much data needed really.
1. Item ID
2. Location of item (one ID for the owning account perhaps, another for the type of location (inv/QB/armour/cab)).
3. Log of the changes in #2.
Actual data involved per item would be minimal, it's just organising it all.
Yes, but imagine 2000 players on a server with say about fifty items each,
i mean ok, you dont need tracking for medkits, boosters, etc, and you dont
move all your items around all the time... But it would ammount to alot of
data pretty fast anyway.
Yes, but imagine 2000 players on a server with say about fifty items each,
i mean ok, you dont need tracking for medkits, boosters, etc, and you dont
move all your items around all the time... But it would ammount to alot of
data pretty fast anyway.
Yeha, it would be copious mounts of data. And on top of that, i dont think you could design as system that was half item tracked an the othe half not. I would prob be an entire conversion of all items involved.
I mean, fuck. LEts jsut count the nubmer so med kits/psi/stamina bossters we have for starters and thinking those items through to actual records in a db.
And Nibb, thx a TON for wieghing in ojn this. Have a tech/network background, I had some kind of consceptual idea of what the topic ment, but the precise points you broguht and the grandness of the picture you painted really hit it for me.
Can I ahve your babies??!?!
And Nibb, thx a TON for wieghing in ojn this. Have a tech/network background, I had some kind of consceptual idea of what the topic ment, but the precise points you broguht and the grandness of the picture you painted really hit it for me.
Can I ahve your babies??!?!
You won't ever be having babies if you call be Nibb again. :p
N
You won't ever be having babies if you call be Nibb again. :p
N
sex the Nibbhogg!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
And on top of that, i dont think you could design as system that was half item tracked an the othe half not. I would prob be an entire conversion of all items involved.
Designing a system then only tracks some items is possible, it's not really that
hard... You just put a boolean called TrackItem, if that value is then set to
false, just ignore all item tracking procedures.
Jesterthegreat
11-01-05, 22:11
What is item tracking?? just a dream *sniff*
Item tracking would have really helped me when I lost items in gogo/transfer/cabbys etc. which where not replaced by GM's as
"lost items are not replaced"
even if you spend fucking ages getting it or lucky with slots etc.
i would have loved it when my DS became a psi booster... guess where that went :rolleyes:
i still have the reminants of that DS in my blood stream
just a dream *sniff*
i would have loved it when my DS became a psi booster... guess where that went :rolleyes:
i still have the reminants of that DS in my blood stream
I've never actually managed to eat something, even though items have transformed
into all sorts of stuff...
It's funny when your in a hurry to get back to a fight and then find out you
tried to use your armor as an anti-shock...
But even though i've try to eat (by accident) all sorts of stuff when they were
looking like boosters/drugs or whatever, I've never actually managed to do it,
for me the booster/drug just doesnt work....
But i guess this game is just full of features...
RogerRamjet
12-01-05, 00:26
I think Decimator or someone ate his marine back in the day.
I think someone ate their CS, and I've eaten my PA before as a medkit.
As for the person who said you don't need to track medkits and other consumables ... that's what Sony thought.
SWG had item tracking from day 1, but only for items, for things that don't stack. Organic resources harvested from animals, and minerals and such pulled out of the ground with mining tools, did not go into the item tracking logs. No, all that involved was a data item on the character saying that you had this type of resource, and this quantity of it.
The game wasn't a week old before somebody found a hack to duplicate stacks of resources. The game economy never recovered. Those of us who were honest frankly begged for an item wipe once they plugged the hole. The exploiters and their thousands of customers who'd bought items for basically free (because they were made for free, using illegally duplicated resources) whined and cried about how they'd all quit the game if they had to replace all of their exploited-for equipment. And besides, they said, what if it happens again? That last complaint turned out to be prescient ... I'm told that resource duplicating is still rampant in SWG, that an honest constructor like I was is still basically screwed.
So yes, when and if item tracking comes to Neocron, it had better include junk and drugs and parts and lube and datacubes and medikits and so forth. No? Consider what happens if another item duplication exploit gets found, like the really old one that used to work with cash cubes. Armor Part 10 sells to Yo's for what, about 3500 each? So a stack of 249 of them is worth about 870k. Wave an exploiter's magic wand over one, you just made 870k in a few seconds. Lather, rinse, repeat. Sell the resulting millions of credits on eBay, quit your day job. Of course, it screws all the non-exploiters in the game, none of whom can now afford the rare weapons and implants that come up for sale because the exploiters and their customers win all the auctions, but what do you care?
Bugs Gunny
12-01-05, 10:41
If KK has to remove the backpacks to "enhance" the database performance, i SERIOUSLY doubt they will add item tracking to it.
For item tracking you would need more extra data than having a serial number attached to each tracked item. You would also have to log at least the last two transactions it made.
Without getting into details on how tables can be set up to show items in your inventory, quickbelt, gogo cabs etc... (for which there are several aproaches) i doubt that item tracking will be with us soon, if ever.
But hey.... it sure sounded good on the preorder advertising :-)
Jesterthegreat
12-01-05, 14:13
If KK has to remove the backpacks to "enhance" the database performance, i SERIOUSLY doubt they will add item tracking to it.
For item tracking you would need more extra data than having a serial number attached to each tracked item. You would also have to log at least the last two transactions it made.
Without getting into details on how tables can be set up to show items in your inventory, quickbelt, gogo cabs etc... (for which there are several aproaches) i doubt that item tracking will be with us soon, if ever.
But hey.... it sure sounded good on the preorder advertising :-)
running it on its own server / server cluster would mean the only extra strain on the game would be the bandwidth (and maybe a small amount when the game checks / updates the item)
i would also say only let items people have seen have them... leet unlooted corpses not have them... unless someone picks it up
Bugs Gunny
12-01-05, 14:23
Oh... and they removed the backpack feature because of..... ? :-)
Jesterthegreat
12-01-05, 14:25
Oh... and they removed the backpack feature because of..... ? :-)
they thought we would say "yay they are making inprovements" when in fact we hated gring back with overload, and being charged when the backpacks easy to get.
oh and as far as the majority of us have seen it has made no difference at all to anything (no positive difference at least)
Bugs Gunny
12-01-05, 14:31
It was to "improve" the database.
When i have also heard rumours of them having problems with all the backpacks of trial accounts lying around in the database.
Well, just imagine starting the game right now, with the weapon you have, two packs of ammo, a bit of cash, and dying a few times in aggies.....
You read it... BROKE.....
Try it a few times with new char, uninstall game from pc and go to store to buy something else.
I can't believe KK does nothing about their lifeblood not being renewed.
They must have a lot of work/problems with the asian launch.
I wish we could read those forums :-)
It was to "improve" the database.
When i have also heard rumours of them having problems with all the backpacks of trial accounts lying around in the database.
Well, just imagine starting the game right now, with the weapon you have, two packs of ammo, a bit of cash, and dying a few times in aggies.....
You read it... BROKE.....
Try it a few times with new char, uninstall game from pc and go to store to buy something else.
I can't believe KK does nothing about their lifeblood not being renewed.
They must have a lot of work/problems with the asian launch.
I wish we could read those forums :-)
It's funny though, the in-game Help channel on Terra is always busy, far busier than i remember it being towards the end of NC1.
Surely this proves there is a fair ammount of new players?
Bugs Gunny
12-01-05, 14:40
Because.....
Help channel is now also a "normal" chat channel where people talk about everything.
Allmost all new players stay le'd, therefore don't join a clan with items and advice to be given.
You won't ever be having babies if you call be Nibb again. :p
N
Yeah, I kinda blew that one, huh.
ROTFL!!!
Because.....
Help channel is now also a "normal" chat channel where people talk about everything.
Allmost all new players stay le'd, therefore don't join a clan with items and advice to be given.
We (X-TorT) have had a good inflow of newbs. Which is exciting, fmr a player standpoint and good for the clan.
fme, the help channel does get quite a bit of questions and such asked. Allot of OOC as well though. I would say though, that the help channel has a 70%-30% ratio of help v chatter.
But thats just me, as I tend to tune out chatter and such.
Bugs Gunny
12-01-05, 17:31
I'm not saying there isn't any new players.
I can however do the math from what i see around me.
For now when i deduct the veteran players that left in the last months from the new ones that i noticed, i can say that i still come up short.
Yes, but imagine 2000 players on a server with say about fifty items each,
i mean ok, you dont need tracking for medkits, boosters, etc, and you dont
move all your items around all the time... But it would ammount to alot of
data pretty fast anyway.
1000 players on average. One transaction per 10 seconds per player (assuming coalescing transactions on stackables), 64 byte log entries per transaction (should be enough with two ID numbers, type of operation and various back pointers, etc.) = 15GB data per month. Most likely this costs less than KK spends on coffee.
15GB data per month. Most likely this costs less than KK spends on coffee.
Possibly, but the cost of storage isn't the issue.
N
Possibly, but the cost of storage isn't the issue.
N
Its the cost of coffee.
Q
-----
sorry i couldnt resist, lol
i hope that KK give us a nice pile of information soon and in this, item tracking updates.
Nid, i'm just curious...
Are you purely being knowledgable on this subject or are you secretly preparing us for the news that Item Tracking is never going to happen? 8|
Are you in a position to tell us if KK still consider Item Tracking doable in the near future?
Jesterthegreat
12-01-05, 21:57
Nid, i'm just curious...
Are you purely being knowledgable on this subject or are you secretly preparing us for the news that Item Tracking is never going to happen? 8|
Are you in a position to tell us if KK still consider Item Tracking doable in the near future?
i think nid does well to tell us what he does considering hes not employed by KK.
shame no actual dev seems to do it...
i think nid does well to tell us what he does considering hes not employed by KK.
shame no actual dev seems to do it...
I agree entirely and i'm sure Nid's just being really helpful :)
As I said in my earlier post, the position on item tracking hasn't changed, it's still a high priority. I'm just contributing to the discussion.
N
As I said in my earlier post, the position on item tracking hasn't changed, it's still a high priority. I'm just contributing to the discussion.
N
Cheers Nid, that stops my mind thinking of bad things :eek:
Possibly, but the cost of storage isn't the issue.
N
That's what I was trying to show. :)
It's just my standard reaction to people who say that item tracking is hard because it generates a lot of data. I just wanted to show that's it's not really that bad. Even if I'm off by a factor 10 (which is more than likely either way), it's still not a problem.
Although I don't really see where the other problems are. If the database accesses are properly designed (which they should be to avoid all standard problems that can cause inconsistency in the database and thus duping, etc.), it's a simple matter of logging every database transaction. Of course if they are not properly designed (I've even seen code at a large financial institution that didn't do proper transactions for money transfers, but rather two separate "remove A from account X", "add A to account Y"), this first requires implementing proper transactions and then everything will follow. Assuming that KK are not completly incompetent I guess the hard part are actually the GM tools, support procedures and actually figuring out what to do with this.
Dribble Joy
13-01-05, 18:10
Like I said, the data isn't the problem, it's the organisation and processing of it that will be the real headache.
its another feature that will never be implemented in neocron. so i wouldnt worry about it.
its another feature that will never be implemented in neocron. so i wouldnt worry about it.
Fuck that, we had to leave too much good stuff behind for item tracking.
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