View Full Version : [MERGED] I have a question
trigger hurt
08-01-05, 22:50
In the past couple months a hack has been passed around the neocron community. We do not tolerate such abuse of the game and as a result 45 accounts have been logged using such and have been permanently banned. We will continue to monitor such behaviour and take appropriate action. We are also monitoring other attempts made at a couple other systems mostly by packet manipulation. We are in discussion as to what to do with those caught in the future attempting such. This post will be the only warning given.
Now...lemme pose these questions.
1- If you have known for the past couple of months about this hack, why didnt you just fix it instead of figuring out a way to log it so you could ban people? It doesn't make any sense that whenever a hack or exploit is found it's not fixed...gm's just monitor and ban. It's understandable that you wouldn't want people using exploits or cheats while playing this game, but the methods of ensuring that people don't cheat seem all wrong to me.
2- Why would you even discuss what to do with people who use applications such as the one you are talking about in the future. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Either ban everyone that does it or unban the people who did it and hit them with the same punishment as the people who may use it or something like it in the future.
I can see their point about monitering/logging for a period of time, it got rid of alot of lamers/llamas....
Where did you get that quote from?
I can see their point about monitering/logging for a period of time, it got rid of alot of lamers/llamas....
Where did you get that quote from?
Announcement forum ;)
those damn llamas, always causing trouble!
I can see their point about monitering/logging for a period of time, it got rid of alot of lamers/llamas....
Where did you get that quote from?
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=121240
N3v3rM0r3
Holy shit that just happened today!!11
:eek:
Hell, that only leaves 10 active accounts(english speaking) left in NC2.... :o
Holy shit that just happened today!!11
:eek:
Hell, that only leaves 10 active accounts(english speaking) left in NC2.... :o
Funnily enough that was my first thought.. onoz, the population of Terra has halfed!!
trigger hurt
09-01-05, 00:50
Keep in mind. I don't disagree with punishing people for cheating/exploiting. I've just grown tired of watching client count dwindle down to nothing. Soon terra will be pluto with 30 people on at peak times.
But again, it's not up to the community to decide what punishment people receive and sometimes, I think that's probably the best. It's their fault they cheated...still kinda depressing that the english community is dwindling.
Funnily enough that was my first thought.. onoz, the population of Terra has halfed!!
why terra? 8|
N3v3rM0r3
tbh i'd rather have a lower server population than play against a slightly higher population that has people cheating to gain an unfair advantage.
why terra? 8|
N3v3rM0r3
true, it's a global announcement. Might not be Terra at all O_o
At least KK has balls enough to do such a thing during a time when their playerbase is at an all time low.
KK :confused: 's me alot lately though.
tbh i'd rather have a lower server population than play against a slightly higher population that has people cheating to gain an unfair advantage.
If they'd acted as soon as it was known about (or v. soon after) they could have stopped it before whatever it was spread to as many people as it did. The longer something like that is around the more people will be exposed to it and some will be temped/persuaded to use it.
That post doesn't say how long this particular problem was "monitored" but in the past we've seen these things take months and do untold damage in that time.
Leaving exploits out there just to see who might be tempted is insane.
Leaving exploits out there just to see who might be tempted is insane.
Good point!
trigger hurt
09-01-05, 04:56
Leaving exploits out there just to see who might be tempted is insane.
Just hoping that whoever from KK or mods that read this understand im not saying it's bad to punish people who cheat, but let's face it. I know of 3 or 4 people who were banned back in NC1 for something that is probably still doable today, and it was stated that it was fixed when in fact, they only set up to monitor it. I also know of a few people who were banned for another cheat in NC2 that im quite sure is still doable.
I guess what I am asking for is...fix the cheats and exploits. It sucks that people get tempted to use them to make themselves better at fighting, but face it, we're all humans and not all of us can resist temptation. If it was impossible to use, noone would use it. There would be those select few who cannot tollerate losing in one way or another, but they'll weed themselves out one by one.
Rogue Arson
09-01-05, 05:22
I guess what I am asking for is...fix the cheats and exploits. It sucks that people get tempted to use them to make themselves better at fighting, but face it, we're all humans and not all of us can resist temptation. If it was impossible to use, noone would use it.
Don't forget, there's always a different way to achieve something. To fix cheats and exploits, you could alter the engine, or remove the cheaters and exploiters. The second method was deployed this time =)
didnīt even know anyone played Terra these days..
only 10 english speaking accounts left ?
hurrah, im one of them ^^
are you unable to count properly or just stopped when you ran out of fingers?
Dribble Joy
09-01-05, 06:12
Fixing an exploit, may not be doable in a single quick and easy step.
KK will have to isolate the problem, work out what is wrong, have to work out a way to fix it, test it and then patch it.
That process could take months, in the mean time they cannot simply let people continue to act as they have (the results of which I have heard about).
Thus banning will happen and will continue to happen.
Also, letting the exploit 'run' is a good way of 'preening' the populace of the less than desirable members.
To fix cheats and exploits, you could alter the engine, or remove the cheaters and exploiters. The second method was deployed this time =)
Or, as I mentioned.. you try to do the first, and use the opportuninty to do the second.
Either way has it's advantage.
Some problems are not fixable withtout immensely increasing the bandwidth usage of the client, processing power of the servers, etc. A perfectly secure and unexploitable client would be a dumb framebuffer that gets its graphics and sound fed from the servers.
There is always a trade-off between security and usability. The advantage of monitoring is that in most cases it's cheap, it solves a big part of the problem and most importantly it gets rid of people who are likely to use other exploits in the future.
trigger hurt
09-01-05, 09:45
Don't forget, there's always a different way to achieve something. To fix cheats and exploits, you could alter the engine, or remove the cheaters and exploiters. The second method was deployed this time =)
They use this method every time, not just "this" time.
so, the announcement... i wonder what clans got banned? Anyone knows?
Also, letting the exploit 'run' is a good way of 'preening' the populace of the less than desirable members.
Like arresting people because their eyes are too far apart?
45 accounts !!!
thats alot of accounts if you add there second accounts, most people have atleast one extra account
/edit ah they said 45 accounts not people :angel:
/edit ah they said 45 accounts not people :angel:
So that'll be 3 Pluto players then ;).
There's nothing to indicate that its from Terra, could have been from any or all servers and communities. I haven't heard of it being anyone from terra yet.
I can't argue with the path KK have taken with this issue, cheating is bad of course. That is...presuming it was something clear cut rather than a loophole in the current Neocron game. Without going into details, I know of people in the past who have found ways to do some of the most boring parts of Neocron easier than the rest of us, and I guess this doesn't quite compare to specifically designing something that could give you an advantage in combat or knowledge etc etc. I guess what I'm saying is that these things aren't always black or white.
However, I would rather the first actual announcement from KK in a very long time was something a little more positive than a mass banning, you know, like what they've been doing the last month, what they plan to do in the new year... O_o
Darth Slayer
09-01-05, 14:21
Cheats should be banned end of story no arguments banned. To cheat in a Game is well Lame.
The way the thread starter is going on seems to me that some of his friends have been banned for using whatever this hack is. Otherwise why make such a big deal about it.
Scorpius.
Cheats should be banned end of story no arguments banned.
Scorpius.
Agree, with a small change.
PERMA-ban.
Yes I had a feeling this might happen. Saw on ebay a while ago someone selling cheats and exploits.
Don't assume all Terra either as this advert I saw was written in German...
As long as KK are sure they are banning correct people then I'm happy with cheats getting the boot.
I dont see why its wrong to log first, then fix next patch. Ppl who exploit in that manner would just jump on to exploiting the next weakness once the issue is fixed ... so yeah, serves them right to get kicked.
If you have a problem with that, just make sure you always read announcments and keep an eye on the support policies: you're fine.
Exploits have to be fixed .. but exploiters need to be "fixed" prior !
Jesterthegreat
09-01-05, 15:16
So that'll be 3 Pluto players then ;).
made me chuckle :D
Well, I know of 10 accounts in NC2 that were banned, and 3/4 people from NC1 that were banned, each for different reasons. And I know that what the NC2 people were doing was still possible after the patch that "fixed" it because otherwise one of them wouldn't have been banned.
I don't understand why KK can't use the MMORPG cheat detection/prevention system nProtect. They are a company that is dedicated to stopping this kinda stuff being possible. They also give you one warning before reporting you to the company who can ban you. Even when KK have a program in question handed to them, they still can't fix the problem. Says something about KKs ability to program really.
I don't understand why KK can't use the MMORPG cheat detection/prevention system nProtect. They are a company that is dedicated to stopping this kinda stuff being possible. They also give you one warning before reporting you to the company who can ban you. Even when KK have a program in question handed to them, they still can't fix the problem. Says something about KKs ability to program really.
The overriding reason is probably the cost of implementation tbh.
so are these cheats that people actully desgined? if not im interested what they did, any ideas?
either way they were lame for doing it and good ridence.
so are these cheats that people actully desgined? if not im interested what they did, any ideas?
either way they were lame for doing it and good ridence.
It sounds like they wrote a program to capture the packets of data sent between the client and the server. They were then modifying these packets.
Honestly not sure tho, that's just speculation. You wont be told on this forum what actually happened
Dribble Joy
09-01-05, 16:53
Like arresting people because their eyes are too far apart?
That's not what I meant and you know it.
Everyone who has decided to use this exploit deserves to be banned.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
People who have to cheat to get an advantage in a mmorpg are too sad for words. I hope that they barred their credit cards too so they can't make fresh accounts this time..
That's not what I meant and you know it.
Everyone who has decided to use this exploit deserves to be banned.
Indeed but leaving it out there for months (which if this is the ebay thing then they did and they certainly have in the past) borders on entrapment.
I'm all for stamping hard on anyone that cheats but I would rather see it done quickly and fairly.
It sounds like they wrote a program to capture the packets of data sent between the client and the server. They were then modifying these packets.
Honestly not sure tho, that's just speculation. You wont be told on this forum what actually happened
[ edited ] Once KK knew what to look for, they knew how to stop it. This is a similar thing to [ edited ], and just shows how poorly the Neocron client was coded as the individual file IDs are borked.
I'd love to know about the program that modified the packets, would be interesting to know how it worked etc. I'd also love to know who owned the other 35 accounts. But, know one is allowed to know and people aren't allowed to discuss it on the forum or in PMs.
EDIT:
Indeed but leaving it out there for months (which if this is the ebay thing then they did and they certainly have in the past) borders on entrapment.
I'm all for stamping hard on anyone that cheats but I would rather see it done quickly and fairly.
I agree, it is a little unfair that it was left open for such a long time that other people can get drawn into the trap. And if that is what KK indended, then they are devious bastards who shouldn't be trusted. :rolleyes:
DangerousDaze
09-01-05, 17:18
KK's method is not really focussed on the immediate threat but on the reinforcement that you will eventually get caught. In a nutshell they're trying to train people not to use hacks in the first place.
Imagine this: let's say that in 3 months time another hack program gets passed around, would you use it? Sure it works, it works just great, but now you know that the fact that it works doesn't mean that KK don't know about it. ;) They may know and they may not but is it a risk you're willing to take?
Use hacks at your own risk.
DD
/edit
And if that is what KK indended, then they are devious bastards who shouldn't be trusted. :rolleyes:
lol :D If it works...
Please keep away from details of any exploits. Also, don't ask for names either publicly or in PMs.
N
Please keep away from details of any exploits. Also, don't ask for names either publicly or in PMs.
N
If(cheating!=exploiting){Let Morganth post what he likes}
Else {Set Nid_Edit +1}
EDIT: Bloody forum doesn't like indentations :mad: Can't make it look like real pseudo-code.
Imagine this: let's say that in 3 months time another hack program gets passed around, would you use it? Sure it works, it works just great, but now you know that the fact that it works doesn't mean that KK don't know about it. ;) They may know and they may not but is it a risk you're willing to take?
They usually say in patch notes if they found anything worth fixing. Take a look at the patch notes which got 3 or 4 PAIN members banned. Unless it involves them monitoring the packets coming to and from the servers most cheat programs are undetectable server-side. Of course if someone is running across the zone at 4x someone who has 255 DEX, AGL and ATL then the are obviously speedhacking regardless of what the server thinks.
/edit
lol :D If it works...
30 mins after the server was up and they had "fixed" the 3sec hack exploit someone went to an outpost and hacked the first layer with 20 hack, a hack tool and did it in 3 secs. It does still work. However, I don't have the ability to test it and I don't particularly want to.
trigger hurt
09-01-05, 18:25
Cheats should be banned end of story no arguments banned. To cheat in a Game is well Lame.
The way the thread starter is going on seems to me that some of his friends have been banned for using whatever this hack is. Otherwise why make such a big deal about it.
Scorpius.
Rest assured [ edited ]. None of the people I associate myself with ingame were in those 45 accounts. They are all still playing the game as I saw em log on last night. I've heard rumors, only rumors of course, that some folks on the other side of the fence and large clan that was very vocal about another clan cheating has quite a few people with "Click 2 Pay" Problems.
My point is, I've been playing this game for over 2 years. I have seen people quit and the population goes down and the game becomes less and less fun. Now, instead of people quitting, they are being banned. What was stopping KK from just fixing the fucking exploit, getting rid of the first few people who you could be absolutly sure were cheating. The way it looks now is, they are just trying to get rid of as many people in one shot, as possible.
Darth Slayer
09-01-05, 18:44
[ edited ] Really somehow I doubt KK are trying to get rid of there customer base but hey you think that if it makes you happy....... :lol:
Also when you descend to calling people names you've lost your arguement and also show yourself up.
Scorpius.
trigger hurt
09-01-05, 18:49
[ edited ] Really somehow I doubt KK are trying to get rid of there customer base but hey you think that if it makes you happy....... :lol:
Also when you descend to calling people names you've lost your arguement and also show yourself up.
Scorpius.
I wasn't trying to win anything in the first place. It's called a discussion forum for a reason. I wanted to discuss something. I was not trying to sway the opinion of KK. You seem kinda slow on the uptake, so I'll try not to use big words with you.
The people who were banned, got what they deserved, but KK spent far too long letting the cheat go. Why wait a month to "gather evidence" if you are not waiting to get as many people at a time before you ban them? Do you need them to use the cheat and have it logged 5, 6 or 7 times before you say "hmm, this guy is cheating, let's ban him". No, if he has used it once, he will use it again. Ban him right then. Don't wait until he has the opportunity to pass it out to his 44 friends and they get banned as well.
Darth Slayer
09-01-05, 22:00
Well once maybe twice could be considered anomolies (excuse spelling).
When they as in GM or KK discover the cheat/hack/exploiter they would have to watch him and give him/her/them enough rope to hang themselves and then ban them. This would also hopefully serve as an object lesson for anyother would be cheaters/hackers/exploiters. After all you hear of one two people being banned you would'nt think much of it. You hear of 40 + going at once and bingo like yourself you sit up and take notice.
Oh thanks for not using any big words........ :D
Scorpius.
they would have to watch him and give him/her/them enough rope to hang themselves and then ban them.
Yeah. Shame they don't give you a warning that you are under investigation. Personally I think if someone is watching what I do I'd say it was a breach of privacy, especially as GMs have the power to watch all the chat channels you are talking on. I am sure in the EULA it doesn't say "GMs have the right to breach your privacy, watch every move you make and disregard your right to freedom of speech".
trigger hurt
10-01-05, 00:04
Yeah. Shame they don't give you a warning that you are under investigation. Personally I think if someone is watching what I do I'd say it was a breach of privacy, especially as GMs have the power to watch all the chat channels you are talking on. I am sure in the EULA it doesn't say "GMs have the right to breach your privacy, watch every move you make and disregard your right to freedom of speech".
There is no such thing as privacy when you are "renting" their software. They have the right to look in on any channel they deem appropriate.
Yeah. Shame they don't give you a warning that you are under investigation. Personally I think if someone is watching what I do I'd say it was a breach of privacy, especially as GMs have the power to watch all the chat channels you are talking on. I am sure in the EULA it doesn't say "GMs have the right to breach your privacy, watch every move you make and disregard your right to freedom of speech".
u doing summing u dont want gms to see?
i MIGHT come back now as all the cocks have been banned
Please keep away from details of any exploits. Also, don't ask for names either publicly or in PMs.
N
Can GM's read our Pm's?
*eep*
Can GM's read our Pm's?
*eep*
No. Everyone knows GMs can't read.
N
u doing summing u dont want gms to see?
i MIGHT come back now as all the cocks have been banned
I have said multiple times that I do not cheat/exploit/pwn on this forum. I have also invited the GMs to stalk me all they want, I would even allow one over to my house to go through my PC (I think they'd like the pr0n, especially Akuji :p ). However, I am sure at some point I was monitored, especially as I was a) in PAIN, and b) associated with Buju Banton who has a "reputation".
[And you can't edit the name Nid as I may be talking about Buju's reputation as a good PPU :rolleyes: , although you will most likely find a legitimate reason somewhere]
No. Everyone knows GMs can't read.
N
So you are saying that they can read PMs, but it depends on whether or not they can actually read. Does it say in the Forum terms of use that we are supposed to have agree'd with that anyone higher up in the food chain can rifle through our PMs?
i can remember the rule that any mods on the NC client that are not approved by KK are illegaland can result in a ban. so whats the fuzz is all about?
the announcement say that they monitor the exploit wich can mean alot.
a) they fixed it but monitor for those packets
b) they dont fixed it but monitor the packets
even if it was b) u are still not allowed to try any patches on the NC client.if you do your fucked.
trigger hurt
10-01-05, 01:54
i can remember the rule that any mods on the NC client that are not approved by KK are illegaland can result in a ban. so whats the fuzz is all about?
the announcement say that they monitor the exploit wich can mean alot.
a) they fixed it but monitor for those packets
b) they dont fixed it but monitor the packets
even if it was b) u are still not allowed to try any patches on the NC client.if you do your fucked.
Please read again. I am not saying that what these people did is right. On the other hand, these people may have not tempted others into using it if:
a) When they were known to be using the hack/exploit, they were banned immediatly instead of waiting a "couple of months" for them to get as many victims as possible.
b) Actually fixed the exploit/hack like they said they did, instead of leaving it doable and just monitoring for it.
And yes, I know that the exploit I am talking about still works as a friend was banned AFTER they supposedly fixed it, not before. Still, he cheated and he was banned. He has only himself to blame. But how many of these people would never have thought about looking for a hack to use if the other folks had not tempted them into it?
But how many of these people would never have thought about looking for a hack to use if the other folks had not tempted them into it?
Are you asking us to feel sorry for these poor tempted souls? Just because a hack still works doesn't mean you're not going to get your arse handed to you for using it - that's the moral of this story.
The question is, are you more or less likely to be tempted in the future, knowing what you know now?
N
Are you asking us to feel sorry for these poor tempted souls? Just because a hack still works doesn't mean you're not going to get your arse handed to you for using it - that's the moral of this story.
The question is, are you more or less likely to be tempted in the future, knowing what you know now?
N
From our view it looks like KK was trying to lure them into a trap by leaving it open for so long.
Its almost like KK leave "features" in game just to ban people. Like whoever thought it would be to leave the best mobs in game for leveling BEHIND a door. I would have thought something like that would have been obviously exploited, which it was. Yet KK still implement it, and try and ban people for their fuck ups. I wonder if there is a way of hiding a hack proggy (NOT trojan) in something else and getting a KK employee/GM to run it. That'd be a laugh, getting Carbonite or similar banned. Wonder how KK would get outta that little problem.
Obsidian X
10-01-05, 02:53
From our view it looks like KK was trying to lure them into a trap by leaving it open for so long.
Its almost like KK leave "features" in game just to ban people. Like whoever thought it would be to leave the best mobs in game for leveling BEHIND a door. I would have thought something like that would have been obviously exploited, which it was. Yet KK still implement it, and try and ban people for their fuck ups. I wonder if there is a way of hiding a hack proggy (NOT trojan) in something else and getting a KK employee/GM to run it. That'd be a laugh, getting Carbonite or similar banned. Wonder how KK would get outta that little problem.
Anyone who wants to be a cheating scumbag can, should, and will get banned through any means KK see necessary. Say what you will about KKs methods; I notice only the people who had friends that were banned are complaining whereas everyone else is glad to see the back of these people.
Cheating is a crime. Think of it in the context of a real life crime. If 5 men rob a bank, and they catch three of them, the police aren't suddenly going to say "Right, we've got the main culprits, we'll let the other two get away, but they'd better not rob a bank again." The same applies here. Anyone caught cheating should be banned, and if KK want to make sure they catch all the cheaters, by waiting then thats fine. I say we don't need people like that here, chances are they'll find new ways to cheat and exploit if they get away with it first time.
I may come back myself but what happens if someone accidently exploits and doesnt know it im sure that they would get banned too hehehe...
Asurmen Spec Op
10-01-05, 03:07
Anyone who wants to be a cheating scumbag can, should, and will get banned through any means KK see necessary. Say what you will about KKs methods; I notice only the people who had friends that were banned are complaining whereas everyone else is glad to see the back of these people.
Cheating is a crime. Think of it in the context of a real life crime. If 5 men rob a bank, and they catch three of them, the police aren't suddenly going to say "Right, we've got the main culprits, we'll let the other two get away, but they'd better not rob a bank again." The same applies here. Anyone caught cheating should be banned, and if KK want to make sure they catch all the cheaters, by waiting then thats fine. I say we don't need people like that here, chances are they'll find new ways to cheat and exploit if they get away with it first time. wow, thats what I wanted to say but alot more.. indepth
Pray
Edit at coid
Im sure they can try to talk it out with GMs. Depending on what it was it may be diferent. Like you use a modded client.. owned
but if you just use a little area in a dungon to aviod getting hit alot they may give ya a chance(or bitch slap yeh)
u doing summing u dont want gms to see?
i MIGHT come back now as all the cocks have been banned
Yes and im sure they were the reason you left :P. I think we got our allied pkar qouta filled on terra try mars they might have a home for ya
Asurmen Spec Op
10-01-05, 03:21
I think we got our allied pkar qouta filled on terra try mars they might have a home for ya aye you do that quiet well
trigger hurt
10-01-05, 03:23
Are you asking us to feel sorry for these poor tempted souls? Just because a hack still works doesn't mean you're not going to get your arse handed to you for using it - that's the moral of this story.
The question is, are you more or less likely to be tempted in the future, knowing what you know now?
N
Im not asking YOU to do anything. You are a volunteer and last I checked, not a member of the dev team, so you probably can't fix any code.
What I am saying is, instead of letting the shit float around for months on end while KK gather up their naughty list, why not fix it when they know about it? At least 2 of the exploits and cheats that I have seen people use were handed to GM's. One of them is even rumored to have been in GM hands a few months before this other guy gave it to them. So why wasn't it fixed? You could say I'm crazy or paranoid for thinking a company would want to get rid of some of it's customer base, but all things considered, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen.
In the end, KK don't have to justify themselves to anyone. They can run this game anyway they see fit, even if it means running it into the ground, but I know of a few people who are little more than bothered by game developers who have a cheat in hand and instead of fixing it, let it go so they can "observe".
Asurmen Spec Op
10-01-05, 03:27
Im not asking YOU to do anything. You are a volunteer and last I checked, not a member of the dev team, so you probably can't fix any code.
What I am saying is, instead of letting the shit float around for months on end while KK gather up their naughty list, why not fix it when they know about it? At least 2 of the exploits and cheats that I have seen people use were handed to GM's. One of them is even rumored to have been in GM hands a few months before this other guy gave it to them. So why wasn't it fixed? You could say I'm crazy or paranoid for thinking a company would want to get rid of some of it's customer base, but all things considered, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen.
In the end, KK don't have to justify themselves to anyone. They can run this game anyway they see fit, even if it means running it into the ground, but I know of a few people who are little more than bothered by game developers who have a cheat in hand and instead of fixing it, let it go so they can "observe". to fix an exploit its not always a flip the switch type of code change. It has taken to much time yes, but they have been worried about terra, plus they have alot of things being demaded of them from the community.
Cheating is a crime. Think of it in the context of a real life crime. If 5 men rob a bank, and they catch three of them, the police aren't suddenly going to say "Right, we've got the main culprits, we'll let the other two get away, but they'd better not rob a bank again." The same applies here. Anyone caught cheating should be banned, and if KK want to make sure they catch all the cheaters, by waiting then thats fine. I say we don't need people like that here, chances are they'll find new ways to cheat and exploit if they get away with it first time.
I think the point that trigger hurt is trying to get across to some people is prettymuch summed up by the quote above, Yes, that is what would have, and should have happened under any normal surcumstances, however what happened, is they said they fixed it, the few that had it thought they got away, passed it onto others saying it still works blahblah untraceable and not fixed etc, and end up passing it around to their friends, in the end instead of the 3 or 5 getting banned, 45 did.
In comparison to your quote, its like this, yea the coppers caught the 3 guys, but what they did was let those 3 go 'uncharged' hoping they wouldnt rob a bank again, but what happened was those 5 that got away with and with the loot spread the word, recruited more people, and a truck load of robberies later, their gang's gone upto 45 people stealin shit allover the place causing havoc and fucking up things for alot of people, now instead of that happening, they could have hit the nail on the head by nicking the first 3 they caught then catching the other 2 they knew were involved instead of the pseudo-entrapment that trigger feels happened.
I dont know anyone that got banned, and havent seen anyone 'dissapear' mysteriously since the announcement. But after reading the thread, thats how i feel some people think this whole things been.
Obsidian X
10-01-05, 04:20
In comparison to your quote, its like this, yea the coppers caught the 3 guys, but what they did was let those 3 go 'uncharged' hoping they wouldnt rob a bank again, but what happened was those 5 that got away with and with the loot spread the word, recruited more people, and a truck load of robberies later, their gang's gone upto 45 people stealin shit allover the place causing havoc and fucking up things for alot of people, now instead of that happening, they could have hit the nail on the head by nicking the first 3 they caught then catching the other 2 they knew were involved instead of the pseudo-entrapment that trigger feels happened.
I have to say, thats possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Uncharged bank robbers going away and recruiting more bank robbers? :wtf:
I can sort of see what you're saying (despite the terrible twisting of my analagy), in the sense that they should have stopped the cheaters instantly, which might have prevented the thing spreading too far. But then anyone who took the bait is stupid, and its their own stupid fault they got banned. The kind of people that cheated now, will most likely cheat again. Maybe its unethical, laying a trap, but its a good way to weed out the cheaters. Face it, smart people dont cheat, its just that simple. KK allowed things to progress, apparantly unnoticed, to discover how many community members are closet cheaters. The plan worked, cheaters were found, cheaters were banned. Thats pretty much the end of the story, you can whine all day about the methods involved; if these people weren't cheats, they wouldn't have been banned, there really isn't much more that can be said on the matter.
Anyone who wants to be a cheating scumbag can, should, and will get banned through any means KK see necessary. Say what you will about KKs methods; I notice only the people who had friends that were banned are complaining whereas everyone else is glad to see the back of these people.
When your friends get lured into a trap and banned for KKs incompetence, I'd like you to sit there and not say a word. If KK knew how to code a secure, working client then none of these problems would occur. However they don't, which can't be helped by us. But when they leave a large amount of time to catch a number of people cheating, it is them being devious and trying to ban people. They are trying to weed out all those people that could have cheated, and all those that may have done it once or used it in a harmless situation.
Thats like someone leaving the backdoor of a shop open, getting everything stolen, but instead of locking the door they instead install a security camera to see how many other people they can catch. Although the people in question were doing wrong, they shouldn't have been given the chance to do something wrong if KK had got of their arses and coded something that might benefit the game.
Er ya i see what your saying morganth. There are far to many people who see things as you do, and its why everything in the world is catered to the morons. Its like lets say someone decided to run accross a highway in high traffic to get to the other side faster then everyone else. He sees many signs telling him not to run across the street for he may be ingured or killed, but he decides to run anyways. Then he gets hit by a car and receives some massive inguries. Afterwards, he sues the city for giving him the opportunity to run accorss the highway, becouse he got hit by a car.
Its not cool how our friends cant play neocron, for you anyways. But know its their own stupid fault and not KK's fault.
I may come back myself but what happens if someone accidently exploits and doesnt know it im sure that they would get banned too hehehe...
Simple. Do what I've done twice now. If it feels to you like "this is too easy, ad not everybody has heard of it, Reakktor themselves might not have heard of it, I wonder if it might be cheating?", then email exploits@neocron.com or exploits@neocron.de, describe the situation, and ask, "Is this cheating?" Both of the times I've asked, I got answered within 2 working days. (To my disappointment, both of those times the answer was no, which struck me as a shame, as both of them circumvent the intent of the game rules as blatantly as guard punching does. I may write about them later, if I remember.)
But the two standard situations lately that have lead to massive accusations of cheating are some people or groups who can clear even the hardest hack screens faster than should be theoretically possible, and non-PPUs who seem to take no damage from weapons fire. I take it for granted that if they were achieving this through cheating, we're not going to be told how they were doing it, but I think that it's safe to assume that it wasn't just a matter of being clever about how to play the game. No, it almost certainly involved some way of changing the code, manipulating the code, monitoring the bitstream between the client and the server, or even manipulating that bitstream. If you're doing any of those things, then you know perfectly damn well that what you're doing is an exploit, don't play innocent with me.
for anyone thinking those ppl where tricked just by letting the possibility in to use that. i think you where the ppl the quotes on that website where made for.
€: ups the site http://www.mlaw.org/wwl/pastwinners.html
ill guess kk should have made a popup window.
Do you REALLY want to cheat?
TRY to Cheat may result in a
ban of all your accounts!
YESNO :rolleyes: :wtf:
Ninjano2002uk
10-01-05, 09:55
Look at it this way,
got rid of the cheaters & if KK's plan was to catch & ban as many ppl as poss rather then stop ppl cheatin all 2gether without bannin then thats stupid as they will lose out on all those future cheaters who pay there staff :D
He sees many signs telling him not to run across the street for he may be ingured or killed, but he decides to run anyways.
Well, this road didn't have any signs warning people not to cross. And it didn't for a long time, then the city told the cars to keep driving and not look out for anyone stupid enough to run out, so more injuries occured. Actually the city got so much joy in watching people go the hospital that they left the road unmarked for a long time, to see how many other people get hit.
EDOT:
But the two standard situations lately that have lead to massive accusations of cheating are some people or groups who can clear even the hardest hack screens faster than should be theoretically possible,
Trust me, you don't even need to use one of your nodes up to win.
You could say I'm crazy or paranoid for thinking a company would want to get rid of some of it's customer base
People cheating & using hacks, exploiting game mechanics ARE NOT valuable customers :mad:
The amount of damage they do to a game, especially a mmorpg.. far outweights the few dollars they pay each month. The only reason I see why it "could" have been bad to wait, is when the case is given, that the exploit completely ruins the game-experience for all players immediately (e.g players obtain the means to kick other ppl from the server). Any other case: Cheating & Exploiting is strictly forbidden.. not tot alk about modifying the client or data with 3rd party tools. Everyone who got banned aknowledged this AND accepted the consequence... unless you can tell me someone was forced by KK to use a hack and didnt notice he suddenly had a few nice advantages.
3. What happens to players that knowingly use exploits to the advantage of themselves or others?
Players that knowingly and continually use exploits have to expect a permanent ban of their Neocron account or accounts. A permanent forum ban will also be imposed.
IF YOU BREAK ANY OF THESE RULES, YOUR NEOCRON ACCOUNT, AND YOUR RIGHT TO USE THE NEOCRON SERVICE, MAY BE TERMINATED IMMEDIATELY BY REAKKTOR MEDIA. IF THIS HAPPENS, YOU WILL NOT BE ENTITLED TO ANY REFUND OF ANY AMOUNTS PAID BY YOU TO USE THE NEOCRON SERVICE AND YOU WILL FORFEIT ALL OF YOUR UNUSED ACCESS TIME.
7) You may not modify any part of the NEOCRON Service or Web Site that Reakktor Media does not specifically authorize you to modify.
14) You will not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running the NEOCRON Service.
15) You will not exploit any bug in the NEOCRON product or the NEOCRON Service to gain unfair advantage in the game and you will not communicate the existence of any such bug (either directly or through public posting) to any other user of the NEOCRON Service.
YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU AGREE TO THESE RULES AND WILL ABIDE BY THEM.
YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT THESE RULES WILL APPLY TO ANYONE THAT YOU ALLOW TO USE YOUR NEOCRON ACCOUNT OR USER ID, AND THAT YOU ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES (INCLUDING TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT) THAT MAY RESULT IF ANY SUCH PERSON BREAKS THESE RULES.
Yeah right ..banned without warning... and instead of telling the ppl exploiting is bad :rolleyes: , KK motivated the to cheat.
Nothing much to discuss here really. Even if you get offered a hack that's been working for month & ages ... you use it, you break the rule. Thinking it wont get noticed as it hasnt been fixed so far does NOT make it better at all... because this means that player would more than willingly jump on the next hack-wave that seems to be relatively "safe".
Cheats destroy games... good to see, ReaKKtor takes appropiate steps to destroy cheaters :mad:
edit:
Well, this road didn't have any signs warning people not to cross. And it didn't for a long time
See above for your missing signs ^^ .. people who use hacks KNEW it was not allowed ..they just thought they might get away with it. Accidently getting injured is something different than consciously jumping in front of it.. cause the last two month it worked w/o getting hurt.
I've just grown tired of watching client count dwindle down to nothing. Soon terra will be pluto with 30 people on at peak times.Terra's database was in danger of being rolled back from December 23rd to January 6th. The playercount could have easily dropped because of that, not due to any specific exploit.
Well, this road didn't have any signs warning people not to cross. And it didn't for a long time, then the city told the cars to keep driving and not look out for anyone stupid enough to run out, so more injuries occured. Actually the city got so much joy in watching people go the hospital that they left the road unmarked for a long time, to see how many other people get hit.
By signs i ment KK telling the community not to use exploits and mess with game files. Not only where they aware that they shouldent exploit, but unless they started neocron recently (ya right) they would have been aware of the bans in the past from exploiting.
Ninjano2002uk
10-01-05, 10:33
Terra's database was in danger of being rolled back from December 23rd to January 6th. The playercount could have easily dropped because of that, not due to any specific exploit.
I left Terra ages ago for MARS , maybe the rest of the english players followed never looked at MAR's % as Its 1 slot server so just click Enter ;)
Anyways Terra full of bugs & a good few No bheads, Ganking blah blah
am English, but i have to say the germans on Mars play neocron sooo much better, only downfall is the SUPPORT /winks -34 SL say no more ;) ( & reading forums for RARE parts etc , part from that since I got nc2 , I enjoyed mars alot more then Terra :)
English ppu-
The good thing out of this mess is the fact that KK has convinced me that they value the integrity of the game a lot higher than the number of accounts that generate direct income to them!!!
It's true, guys!
Morganth, FRE's have got nothing to do with this. Stay on topic and stop trolling.
N
Morganth, FRE's have got nothing to do with this. Stay on topic and stop trolling.
N
If I stay on topic I get edited for discussing exploits, so I can't win really.
Not gonna bother with this thread anymore, I just get told off for staying on-topic.
Bugs Gunny
10-01-05, 12:48
Wow, wasn't reading forums for a few days and look what i missed.
Hasn't been much talk about it ingame either i think.
I'm not gonna go spam my opinions about it, but i know one thing......
It's getting awefully quiet on terra.....
Good thing i got my grandmother a copy of NC2 for xmass, a couple more weeks of leveling and you'll see "Psichogranny", the TG hybrid run around pking everyone :-)
*goes to check ebay for all the "cancelled" accounts being sold*
Good thing i got my grandmother a copy of NC2 for xmass, a couple more weeks of leveling and you'll see "Psichogranny", the TG hybrid run around pking everyone :-)
Smashing! I can ask my granny to get in touch with yours so they can form the first clan of this kind, "GRANNIEZ UNILMITED".
Well done, Bugs
10 January 2005
It was just a few hours ago when I noticed that a great number of account holders got banned due to a hack issue.
Although, I have repetitively posted about it in other threads, I would like to grab the opportunity once again to say that what makes KK a responsible business entity is the fact that despite the small number of active accounts at present, they did not hesitate to ban those who offended.
I have played other MMORPGS before (namely MUonline) and realised that what can really kill off a game in the long term is not the client-orientated crashes, or missing items, or graphic glitches, but the hacks. Many can be pissed off about the known problems but at the same time rest assured that it happens to everybody. On the other hand, nobody can tolerate when certain individuals decide to go "cheating" all the way, while the rest feel like idiots.
I remember playing that MUonline, spending hours upon hours levelling my chars. All my mates gladly joined and I do have to admit that there were crashes 'n' lag too. You could see everywhere people cursing the game's developer. Kinda like Neocron but in larger scale. Though, people seemed to put up with this and kept playing. You know why? Because they had made friends within the game and that they didn't want to throw away all these hours of levelling and item collecting. Eventually, a hack was circulated openly and at some point three quarters of the existing players were using it. The game completely died in a few months.
In the Neocron reality now, you can call it either self-preservation or maturity, but one thing is for sure; KK have respected its few remaining customers. This was achieved by banning a good deal of active accounts, realising that if it takes to limit their revenue in order to keep the game alive this would have happened at all costs.
I am now joyfully convinced that there is somebody out there who's daily ensuring the game's integrity. It gives me a kind of satisfaction to know that all the hours I have spent so far, are not wasted. My efforts have not been nullified by an idiot who "achieved" what I have in months, in a few hours..
I beg you to believe me when I say that there is nothing worse for a game than the use of hacks. It puts you off any game straight away...
In conclusion:
They (KK) have "smoothly" introduced the new features of Neocron 2, fixed shitloads of bugs, and prevented what most of us considered certain, a rollback. It is our turn now to enhance the game, simply by following the set rules. Let's stop the Pking. The NAP example set by Purple of Terra's PHAZE should be followed by all Pro-Cities and a similar act to be implemented by the Anti-cities to be equally respected across the Outzone. This, along with a review of SL system by KK, could make Neocron a well deserved "must" MMORPG and as a result the server populations may start to grow again..
ya hackers can easily ruin a game, remember playing diablo that game got flooded with hackers, got to the point wasnt worth bothering with, i mean just to get one hit killed by some cheating haxor.
as for the stoping the pking, sry but cant see that happening, having spoke to some of the offenders they aint the sort of people who will be swayed by such posting tbh
as for the stoping the pking, sry but cant see that happening, having spoke to some of the offenders they aint the sort of people who will be swayed by such posting tbh
Is it because they are assholes?
Is it because they are assholes?
Yes. Yes it is.
Frankly I care more about dying to a fatal than I ever did about dying to another player who cheats. I never really noticed Neocron having a problem with the latter, whereas I die to the former all the time. There's another thread going about this by the way.
aye you do that quiet well
always in defence never to be a cunt :P. Still a few people have some grudges from NC1 not all were clever enough to move to FA were i couldnt get them. Still most people have relaxed or are tired of dieing i aint quite sure which but it aint so bad anymore for me.
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