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View Full Version : Which is the strategy game, AO or NC?



BradSTL
28-12-04, 04:20
In this thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?p=1722879#post1722879), I saw something that really annoyed me, because it's just so wrong:
Fighting in AO...

TAB,Q,TAB,TAB,Q,TAB,Q,TAB,Q,TAB,TAB,TAB,Q, etc.
Now, I quit Anarchy Online years ago. The odds that Nidhogg and I were playing at the same time are nearly zero. What's more, he doesn't tell me what character name(s) he was playing, or on what server. But just from this one remark I can tell you something about Nidhogg ... he wasn't very good at Anarchy Online. Either he spent almost no time in team PvE, or he sucked at it so bad that he spent his whole time in Anarchy Online being bitched out by other team members. Why? Because there's a heck of a lot of strategy in Anarchy Online. And unless Nidhogg is kidding us here, he obviously missed all of it.

In Anarchy Online, the various professions are vastly different from each other. Some have all the hitpoints and all the armor, but only mediocre damage dealing abilities. Some have insane damage output, but no hit points or armor. Some fight through two, three, or more remote controlled pets that have to be managed simultaneously. There are healers who can heal but are fragile and do no damage; there are healers with a balance of both healing and damage output, there are healers who can only do healing-over-time while taking advantage of their high runspeed and automatic dodge abilities. When you sort it all out, you end up with at least six distinct combat subspecialties. Pullers try to lure enemies back into traps set up by the other players. Crowd controllers calm, mesmerize, or paralyze excess enemies to hold them back out of the fight so the team can fight targets one at a time. Healers only heal, desperately trying not to attract aggro so they can concentrate their energy on keeping the front line troops alive. Nukers save their attacks until the target is almost dead and then finish it off fast, so that it goes down before it can transfer its attention to their fragile selves. Meatshields use taunts to make sure that enemies only the characters with the most hit points and armor, themselves, get attacked, and doing so make life easier for the healers by guaranteeing they mostly only have to concentrate on healing one person. And even the easiest of those roles, the damage dealers, have to be taught carefully how not to attract extra enemies into the kill zone and how not to accidentally draw fire to themselves and away from the meatshield. And that doesn't even count the complexity of managing the variety of buffs and debuffs in Anarchy Online. In virtually every other game, team PvE strategy is critical, absolutely essential if you're going to fight any enemy that's likely to give halfway decent XP or drop anything useful in the way of loot. Whether or not everybody on the team knows their role determines whether the team lives or dies.

Now, in Neocron, if you're a PPU, the strategy in Neocron is pretty much the same as it is in Anarchy Online: watch the team indicators and try not to run out of psi energy (mana pool) while keeping the damage dealers on your team alive. Except, of course, in Neocron it's about 1000% easier, because in Neocron, healers are nigh invulnerable, as opposed to Anarchy Online where healers, being among the most fragile classes in the game, have to worry about doing their job without attracting incoming fire. Now, for everybody else, the damage dealing professions in Neocron, what's the strategy? It's the same for everybody:

1) Use your four movement keys and your mouse to keep the cursor over the enemy, and dodge back and forth a little.
2) Keep holding the left mouse button down.

Wow! That's complex! How long did it take you to figure it out? Except, of course, that most people never do figure it out. I've played this game with some of the best and (some days I think) all of the worst, and for example I can count on the thumbs of one hand all of the players I've met in the entire history of this game who make any halfway serious effort to stay out of the path of incoming long-range friendly fire. Maybe I see more of this than most, because I'm a big believer in the strategy of attacking enemies from the next time zone over, so I mostly play rifle spies and droner spies. I know that when I see attacks passing me on the left, and a team member arrow at the edge of the screen that says I've got members of my team behind me on the left, then I know that when I dodge I'm going to have to dodge right, not left. But no, your average Neocron player knows only to keep that cursor centered on the target and to keep moving, so they die as much to outgoing friendly fire in the back as they do to incoming hostile fire from the front.

There are a lot of things that Neocron does better than Anarchy Online. Neocron's world design looks a heck of a lot better, a heck of a lot more realistic. Neocron's vehicles are much better looking (for all that AO's vehicles work better). Neocron's factions and sides are much more interesting. Neocron's trade skills are a heck of a lot better implemented. And best of all, while Reakktor occasionally doesn't have time to deal with us, especially with problems of individual players, well, after you've played Anarchy Online for a while you'll long for the day where you never heard from the company that runs your MMOG; their customer "service" people are the rudest, most hostile you've ever met ... and I still say this even after having dealt with Sony.

But anybody who says that the reason to play Neocron instead of Anarchy Online is because Neocron has more complex and interesting strategy is just plain wrong.

MkVenner
28-12-04, 05:03
well im playing AO atm, and enjoying it, but im playing NC atm too and not enjoying its AS much as i have in the past. AO is more than just Tab, q, tab, q, for a soldier or a enforcer, yeah, just do that and time your specials. But for traders and fixers and beurocrats and the more support classes you have to time your ransacks, time all the boosts, etc etc. And there alot more to do outside of combat, i spent an hour working out how to get the stam to wear a certain peice of armour, buff to get certain imps in, that would allow me ti get a bigger buff to get an item on, to get better imps and then finally the armour, lots more...i dunno, intelectual. In NC teres 13 imp slots, and about 25 imps that are used at cap. 5 armour slots and only about 10 armour combos used at cap. In AO there is 14 imp slots, an INFINITE amount of Imp combos (due to customisable implants, each one holding 3 different "clusters"), 13 armour slots, with an insane amount of armours (all of which show up in game), more weapons than you can shake a stick at, nano spells out your arse. Theres working out whether duel weilding you pistols will work out better than using an SMG, there no such thing as specialisation, a world that is genuinly deadly and doesnt take 15 mins to cross, oh and it has hack net, and when i say hack net, i mean hack net, the resemblances are startling. 4 races and about 12 classes mean that cookie cutterism is practicly non-existant, vehicles and appartments suck, but full cities can be built and fought for over by clans (guilds). The Instanced dungeons for missions are always different, but they still get boring after a while. You can develop a city with mining equipment if its in a mineral rich area and other things. oh and vehicles are crap. But NC has a better combat system. The world graphics of AO are better, but the characters look alot more shitty, and that must mean they're bad lol....

QuantumDelta
28-12-04, 08:24
Depends on the level you're playing at: and by that I'm not meaning char levels.


To an Op war commander NC used to be bloody strategic, tactical decisions were made on the onset and as the situation developed a lot of strategic commands had to be given whilst the commander stayed on the battlefield in one piece and in a calm enough position to make clear choices:
Hense why most good clan leaders actually naturally ended up as PPUs (Psychology thing).

Op layout.
Classes.
Class Varients.
Resources Available.
Logistic times.
Enemy Resources Available.
Enemy Logistic times.
Enemy positions.
Friendly positions.
Potential allies on either side.
Individual (if notable) skill on part of any exemplerary member of either side.
This list continues on, and some things will be reflective of those in AO.

AO itself, can easily be regarded as an RTS very close to that of Defence of The Ancients.

DotA is merely a mod map yea, but it's massively more active and massively more demanding than my experience in AO was.
AO itself, though requiring some prethought and strategy, isn't what I would call remotely taxing compared to todays games, any larger scale combat was quite often decided well before the first spell was cast or blade was swung, simply because of the lines drawn up.
A single person or small group couldn't illicit a reversal via flow of strategic events in a battle.

NC, being much faster paced and higher 'twitch' (Though I know it's not twitch really I don't know what to really call it), personal skill is much more on hand-to-eye and predetermined character setups in variables including your team mates and other character classes involved in the fight.

There's probably about the same number of variables in both games from my estimation of what I saw (Sorry only went up to about level 50 before I got bored :|), the plain and simple decider for me in terms of PERSONAL SKILL (read; not strategy) is NC wins due to the sheer amount of variables that must be processed in a short period of time.


Edit;
Some people may argue the exact opposite, because you need further insight in combat with AO you need to look beyond the next few strikes.

FYI:
Being a Tribal and a GTVA Pilot before anything else, I think both games are weak :p

Jesterthegreat
28-12-04, 12:28
having played both games...

AO combat = all about timing. TAB, Q, whatever weapon skills you can spam as soon as you can spam them.

NC combat = all about player skill, your diverse setup, the ammo mod on your weapon, how well you work together as a team...

NC combat requires skill...

AO combat requires memory / timing.

QuantumDelta
28-12-04, 17:37
NC combat requires hand-to-eye-co-ordination (skill...)

AO combat requires memory / timing. (Which is also a skill)

Fixed it :p

Spermy
28-12-04, 17:50
MAYBE! JUst MAYBE!

Niddy was pointing out a typical players view?

Maybe!

All it is is quick keys and macros :p

Played both myself - Prefer neocron. :)

SigmaDraconis
28-12-04, 18:29
In Now, in Neocron, if you're a PPU, the strategy in Neocron is pretty much the same as it is in Anarchy Online: watch the team indicators and try not to run out of psi energy (mana pool) while keeping the damage dealers on your team alive. Except, of course, in Neocron it's about 1000% easier, because in Neocron, healers are nigh invulnerable, as opposed to Anarchy Online where healers, being among the most fragile classes in the game, have to worry about doing their job without attracting incoming fire. Now, for everybody else, the damage dealing professions in Neocron, what's the strategy? It's the same for everybody:

1) Use your four movement keys and your mouse to keep the cursor over the enemy, and dodge back and forth a little.
2) Keep holding the left mouse button down.

eh? Judging by what you said here you have about as much a grasp on PPUing as nid supposedly does of AO.... I'm not saying this as an insult, but it's kind've the pot calling the kettle black/not helping your argument type deal. It's quite OT tho so I'll just say that never having played AO, I don't know how much strategy is involved, but based on the description of it its pretty much like any other party based PvM MMORPG, in which it is most definatly more reliant on strategy (and less on active skill) than NC.

I actually tend to enjoy both types of games equally depending on my mood, the main downside to both is just repetativness really, NC is only able to counteract that through its end-game focus on spontanious PVP.

Jesterthegreat
28-12-04, 23:27
MAYBE! JUst MAYBE!

Niddy was pointing out a typical players view?

Maybe!

All it is is quick keys and macros :p

Played both myself - Prefer neocron. :)

ditto... though i prefer playin AO for free for a few days rather than gettin more stuff rolled back on NC.

and @ QD... i see a hell of alot more skill in playing NC at a high level (OP waring for example) than any combat i have seen in AO. im only level 11 atm but i click a target, press 2, then 3, then press 3 when my attack has recharged.

now ill admit it may get more skillful (we all know how shitty it is hunting rats in NC) but i cant see it being comperible. the skill of pressing "4" and the skill of movement / aim / different weapons in NC

Asurmen Spec Op
29-12-04, 02:50
I got sick of AO after falling thru the ground in whatever the place was.were shades starts.
I fell thru the ground 16 times in an hour
and NC is buggy