[MERGED] Don't worry about a ROLLBACK [Archive]

ArgieD

26-12-04, 22:40

Our office has closed for holidays and like many players, I got a lot more time to enjoy Neocron than normally. Unfortunately, the Terra server was down by Xmas Eve, but by Xmas Day it was up and running. Numerous problems were encountered by nearly all of us.

Bad memories from Saturn have emerged and people panicked. Everybody thought the worst is bound to happen. Others appeared more calm. Analytically:

School of Pessimistic Thought: A Rollback is unavoidable. We have seen these sort of problems before (green runners, hilarious haircuts etc) and back then a rollback was the answer. Therefore, brace for another one. The legendary Christmas Rollback...

School of Optimistic Thought: A Rollback is unlikely to occur. There are no missing items from peoples' appartments or gogus. Nothing has mysteriously disappeared, and therefore there is no need returning to a previous state of the game. Many claim that the problem has to do with a corrupted graphics' file, therefore the entire databse is not corrupted. Graphics glitches are knows to MMORPG databse admins everywhere. Verdict: Fear not, and carry on playing, as the problem may be fixed soon with another patch.

Well, personally I belong to the second school of thought. We all try to enjoy our Xmas & New Year holidays (so do KK and forum mods) and I can't see any reason to be extremely outraged about the present uncertainty. Just carry on playing. lads.

Or just think it this way:
-) You stop playing for a week or so, while everybody else have plenty of time (Xmas) to level up and have fun in general; No rollback happens and you feel that you missed out all the fun because of rumours...
or
-) You carry on playing for a week or so like everybody else. A rollback does happen. You get really pissed off, but at least it happens to everybody.

The BIG difference is that in the first scenario, you are the ONLY idiot while on the other, you are just one upset person among many others.

My advice is simply to carry on playing. I feel that KK would have announced by now if there was a pragmatic possibility of a rollback. Memories of the latest rollback are still fresh and I'm sure it would be a lot better for them to ask us to stop playing for a few days "due to server maintenance or smth" rather having us levelling only for another rollback to happen. I'm sure they understand this well.

Though, in case of a further rollback, just think that it happened to all of us; not just you. What you lose? XP and new items. You can get them again in a few days. Ncl, items, rares, the lot. At the end of the day, you will certainly have more fun playing the game even under the fear of a RB, rather than being pissed off in advance and abstain your Necron duties bearing in mind that this RB may never happen. Your runner needs YOU! :)

PS Ah, and Merry Christmas to everybody

trigger hurt

26-12-04, 23:02

NOthing missing from inventories and gogo's?

So you missed the 4 or 5 people online last night who said they were missing entire inventories, couldn't even gr into their custom apartments and were missing stuff from their gogo's as well?

Yeah. They relogged. They rebooted. They zoned.

Their stuff never came back. Whether there is a rollback or not is not the point. Fact is, there is just far too much silence from KK. When something bad happens, ie. the saturn fuck up, the few rollbacks we have had thus far, etc, KK hide in the corner until they get up the nerve to say "uhm...oops". I was hoping that Holger would learn from the mistakes in the past and not remain silent when rumors are flying around. But he hasn't.

He's sitting at home right now, drinking his hot cocoa, wearing his brand new rolex and thinking of all the money that is rolling in. Meanwhile, we're wondering if the time we have spent in NC2 for the past few days will be all for naught.

All it would take is a "hey, we're looking into it. the colo is understaffed and they're looking at it right now. We have a good idea what is causing it. There may be a rollback, but we will see what we can do to compensate you for your lost time should that be the case".

Instead. The silent treatment. Do you hear the crickets?

ArgieD

26-12-04, 23:13

Fact is, there is just far too much silence from KK.

I wouldn't blame them. Everytime they announce something we tell them off re: false promises when they fail to deliver.
A reason they do not announce anything is simply because they may have two different approaches or ways to resolve the problem; they probably don't want to be bound to one of them by letting us know what the problem is and what are they gonna do about it.

Also bear in mind that it is Xmas right now and the certain guy liable to make such a fundamental decision may be away. It doesn't mean that the Entire KK are away.

He's sitting at home right now, drinking his hot cocoa, wearing his brand new rolex and thinking of all the money that is rolling in.

Without meaning to sound offending to you (nothing personal about your post mate ;) ), I couldn't help it but laugh. If each account pays them £5 a month, while Clit 2 Play fails to get the payments through, minus all the admin costs & utility bills, I can hardly see anybody wearing any Rolexes :lol:
If I'm wrong on this, I'm bloody quitting my IT job and send my CV to KK with immediate effect :)

athon

26-12-04, 23:14

Silence?

http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=120689

What silence? On this issue KK seem to have been very communicative so far, especially considering it's the holliday season.

Athon Solo

Asurmen Spec Op

26-12-04, 23:37

eprodigy

26-12-04, 23:42

A Rollback is unlikely to occur. There are no missing items from peoples' appartments or gogus. Nothing has mysteriously disappeared, and therefore there is no need returning to a previous state of the game. Many claim that the problem has to do with a corrupted graphics' file, therefore the entire databse is not corrupted. Graphics glitches are knows to MMORPG databse admins everywhere. Verdict: Fear not, and carry on playing, as the problem may be fixed soon with another patch.

With any other game or company I would agree. I don't think they know any other way to fix things tbh. I hope they do, but I don't expect them to, and I will not waste my time in neocron with even a tiny chance of a rollback, although the chance of one now is a lot more then tiny, all things considered, and I know that im not alone in this.

One thing giving me a little hope is the christmas gift event, all the gifts would be erased :D

Cubico

26-12-04, 23:52

I assume there will be a rollback.
I assume the current ingame problems are coming from a corrupted database, and only way to bring the db back to a consistent state is to load an old image.

trigger hurt

27-12-04, 00:06

Silence?

http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=120689

What silence? On this issue KK seem to have been very communicative so far, especially considering it's the holliday season.

Athon Solo
What I see there is a post from Carb that came a while after the server went down.

Then, there's a post from Nidhogg. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but Nidhogg isnt an official anything. He's a volunteer. So yeah. Silence is exactly what we are getting. It's december 26. It's 5:00 my time. Officially, it has been 72 hours since the last post from a KK dev team member who has the ability to give us real word on what is going on.

[ edited ]

Asurmen Spec Op

27-12-04, 00:08

[ edited ] Im sorry did I hurt your fealing?
You always expect KK to tell you everything then if they dont meet the deadline(welcome to MMOs) you scream about it
its one way or the other [ edited ]

eprodigy

27-12-04, 00:13

Actually if people dont rememebr check out this thread, if you glance through the first page you'll notice it sure looks like the exact same problem does it not ? The character heads missing on login, bald chars, etc.

They reply a few times saying there checking, they dont think there will be a rollback, and page 10 of the thread. Theres a rollback.

http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=116800&page=1&pp=15&highlight=rollback

Asurmen Spec Op

27-12-04, 00:14

trigger hurt

27-12-04, 00:15

Im sorry did I hurt your fealing?
You always expect KK to tell you everything then if they dont meet the deadline(welcome to MMOs) you scream about it
its one way or the other asshole you guys have chosen deal with your choice
ps: dont call me a troll noob
[ edited ]

No, I don't expect to be told everything. One the other hand when it effects my ability to play because I don't want to lose valuable time I will spend leveling, running two epics, making some cash and building some rares...fuck yes I want to know something.

No, I don't want to hear it from a volunteer forum moderator who may or may not be able to chat directly with the people who make real decisions about the direction of this game. I want to hear it from someone with the word "Official" near their name. Its nothing against Nid. He does his job well enough, but he is only a forum mod

[ edited ]

eprodigy

27-12-04, 00:20

exept did KK say why it was happening?

I'm going by what I see, and even if KK would say there wasn't going to be a rollback I probably wouln't believe them. I hope the problem is just dimished capacity, but the problems seem too similar to before, and the thought of them actually just fixing a problem like this is tough to even imagine.

Nidhogg

27-12-04, 01:28

Don't you think my information was a little too detailed to be the wild ramblings of just a forum mod? Anything posted in that Announcements forum is sourced from and has the full backing of Reakktor. The usual complaint of KK silence doesn't work this time, but this thread does prove one thing, it proves that people will complain and criticse no matter what happens. Now quite flaming each other.

N

StealthyAssassi

27-12-04, 01:32

I dont dare to play on Terra either. I already lost a lot in the last 2 (!!!) Rollbacks!
You are saying that you are working on it, but I want to know: rollback or not - if you are going to rollback: do it now PLEASE

Durandal|AI

27-12-04, 01:46

athon

27-12-04, 02:12

What I see there is a post from Carb that came a while after the server went down.

Then, there's a post from Nidhogg. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but Nidhogg isnt an official anything. He's a volunteer. So yeah. Silence is exactly what we are getting. It's december 26. It's 5:00 my time. Officially, it has been 72 hours since the last post from a KK dev team member who has the ability to give us real word on what is going on.

[ edited ]
OMG! NESFLASH! NEWSFLASH! KK DO NOT, REPEAT, DO NOT HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL!!! OH NOES!

Of course the post was AFTER the server went down. If the problems themselves didn't take the server down, then KK almost certainly would have put preventing possible further damage (which may create a need to roll back) before posting on the forums. This is exactly how I would expect them to act.

and...
OMG! OMG! NEWSFLASH! KK STAFF (and according to thew post, the server center staff) IS REDUCED OVER CHRISTMAS PERIOD! OH NOES!

I'm not exactly a KK fanboi right now, but some people seem to be whining just for the sake of it. It's these people who are probably putting KK off more involvement of the community, etc.

Athon Solo

athon

27-12-04, 02:13

lol athon just Owned some one :)
Well, there's a first time for everything =D

Athon Solo

eprodigy

27-12-04, 02:15

The usual complaint of KK silence doesn't work this time, but this thread does prove one thing, it proves that people will complain and criticse no matter what happens.

Your right, i'm not complaining of silence, I am complaining because I am stuck with a broken (even if it was just hair and pants, and I think it's more) game right now that I believe will be erased back anyway! The announcement says "staff shortages" well I really couldn't care less, the reason we pay money for Neocron is for you guys (KK) to deal with that problem, it's your problem not ours.

IceStorm

27-12-04, 02:27

I feel that KK would have announced by now if there was a pragmatic possibility of a rollbackKK's all home enjoying their Xmas presents. They haven't taken a good look at the database or the playerbase yet. Ignorance is bliss.
Don't you think my information was a little too detailed to be the wild ramblings of just a forum mod?Your "information" to-date is that there are staff shortages and that Terra's running on far less hardware than normal.

Our empirically-gained information is that GGs, inventories, and items are going missing, along with cash. Anyone who has played this game for six months or more knows that this, in all likelyhood, means KK is going to roll back to the last good backup pre-December 24th.

I realize there's no official word one way or the other, but having one forum mod say we should play for the sake of playing (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=120768) (Gotterdammerung) is downright silly. One of the core features of an MMORPG is the persistent world. Without that, Neocron is a rather lame FPS, and there are far better FPS choices out there. NC has no persistence if there's a threat of rollback hanging over our heads. Anyone who has played since the 24th knows that threat is very real at this point.

Don't sugar-coat the situation. No one at KK knows how bad the damage is. If you did, you'd say one way or the other and at this point, you aren't. You've left the server up either because it's also functioning as the login server or because PR told you it was bad form to take it down over a holiday weekend. You haven't left it up because you know it's healthy, that's for damn sure.

Just to be clear, I'm not upset that Terra's broken. It's the holiday season and it wouldn't feel right if an NC server didn't break. I'm annoyed that volunteers and KK staff are trying to suggest that a rollback isn't likely - you all know by now what symptoms preceed a rollback. Don't try to be defensive, just state there's no official word and leave it at that. The playerbase is smart enough to decide on its own if it should continue to play or not.

eprodigy

27-12-04, 02:47

....

My thoughts exactly.

Nidhogg

27-12-04, 02:56

I'm annoyed that volunteers and KK staff are trying to suggest that a rollback isn't likely
Where have we said anything either for or against a rollback? All we've said is that we have no idea whether there will be a rollback or not and that happens to be the truth. We're not encouraging you to play, nor are we discouraging you. I've stated the facts as given to me by KK and until the data centre get back after the Christmas break there's nothing else we can say. We're not giving you the silent treatment (we've posted constantly since it happened) - we just can't say anything more than we already have.

N

giga191

27-12-04, 03:15

I will worry about the rollback coz I've gotten 5 psi lvls today from lvl 90 to 95 so I'm gonna be pissed if there is one. But I'm not gonna blame it on KK and I can't say that they haven't warned me that there might be a rollback

trigger hurt

27-12-04, 03:16

Where have we said anything either for or against a rollback? All we've said is that we have no idea whether there will be a rollback or not and that happens to be the truth. We're not encouraging you to play, nor are we discouraging you. I've stated the facts as given to me by KK and until the data centre get back after the Christmas break there's nothing else we can say. We're not giving you the silent treatment (we've posted constantly since it happened) - we just can't say anything more than we already have.

N
Making 3 posts, 2 of those being from someone unpaid and sent to take the heat from the community is not "constantly". There was one post by Carobinte. One post containing obvious information from two people.

We could infer that the server is still having problems...we log in and see them. We could infer that you, volunteers who work for nothing, are probably clueless about what caused the issues in the first place. So far, you've made it perfectly clear in a couple of posts that you don't know what caused the errors.

In other words, your posts are for nothing more than damage control. And from past experiences with KK, damage control means that they don't want to say what they are going to have to say. Silent Treatment. If they are online feeding you this information, why can't they take the 10 minutes to post here, so we can get it from someone official? Silent Treatement.

IceStorm

27-12-04, 03:20

All we've said is that we have no idea whether there will be a rollback or not and that happens to be the truth.No, you (collectively) haven't said only that. I already linked to a thead where it was suggested that people who play for the sake of playing continue to do so. From that thread, from Gotterdammerung:

If you play the game to have fun then my advice is by all means continue to play, if the treadmill is more your speed then play as you are now but put leveling aside till your questions have been answered.
Does Gotterdammerung play MMORPGs? Does he understand the concept of a persistent world? Has he not dealt with item/money/XP loss in NC before? Does he not understand that "play the game to have fun" right now could result in the permanent loss of any manner of items (like MC5 CPUs), none of which KK will replace if they decide not to roll back?
We're not encouraging you to play, nor are we discouraging you.Well, obviously that statement is no longer true. At least one of your number said continue to play.

As for not discouraging, that's fine, but don't get defensive when the old-timers point out to the playerbase that this sort of server instability usually preceeds a rollback.

StealthyAssassi

27-12-04, 03:24

ArgieD

27-12-04, 03:36

we just can't say anything more than we already have.

N

No matter what you say, or how you say it, there will always be a big proportion of subscribers that will moan; not totally unjustified, but over-reacting doesn't lead anywhere.

I am sure that all of us deep down understand that KK, and especially the Forum mods, can do nothing drastic right now. I guess when everybody's back, they will sit down, look at the facts and brace themselves for the furious anger of lots of people, in case that a rollback is imminent. It seems that the best thing we can do is play anyway and expect a rollback, but secretly hope that it won't happen.

I feel great sympathy for the forum moderators. They remind me of the Customer Service staff working for problematic companies :( I suppose only the C2P customer service staff are currently facing harsher duties at present.

I also feel a good deal of sympathy for the KK staff. Something tells me that there is ONLY 1 person that is capable of dealing with database related problems, who unfortunately is away right now. This is quite possible and perhaps the reason why KK are unable to confirm that there will or not be a RB. What is for sure is that when somebody book holidays around this time of the year, they do it for quite a few days. As a result a decision to be made will take place in a week or so, during which:

-)if the forum mods claim that they know nothing at the moment, then we flame them for not letting us know about what will probably happen.
Typical following thread: OMG KK, why don't you finally tell us what is going on?

-)if the forum mods, in accordance with KK, announce a dreading RB straight away, people then won't play for as long as it takes (who would tbh?).
Typical following thread: OMG KK, we pay you but the server doesn't work (breached the contract, flame, troll, quit, money back, etc)

A typical catch 22 situation as you can tell. When I posted earlier on that carrying on playing is the best option, I didn't do it for the sake of it. Believe me it IS the healthier choice. You pass your time in a pleasant manner and also have the possibility of keeping everything you earned on in case the RB never happens. On the other hand if you don't play, you have absolutely NO chance of getting anyting anyway :(

PS. Apart from my stance with respect to the present crisis, I wish KK would just bring the servers down right now if they know for a fact there will be a RB..

N3v3rM0r3

27-12-04, 03:57

Where have we said anythingwe just can't say anything more than we already have.

ok.. i'll wait

hope better news ^__^

N3v3rM0r3

Asurmen Spec Op

27-12-04, 04:00

I dont even care who posts what anymore. Fact is:
The other servers dont have rollbacks.

I have played other MMORPGs...
1) ... with less bugs, same or lower cost and no rollbacks either
2) ... where there are expansions that REALLY include the content they promise
3) ... where the community is nearly "instantly" informed through launcher messeges (eg: "patch today. server down from now on, for approximately 3 hours" - we dont even have the direct link to the patchnotes´) then go play those MMOs
do you people think KK does these rollbacks for fun!? do you think they know!? do you expect a message "Rollback in three weeks its a two day rollback at exactly 16:45 GMT" FFS they hate these more then you do.
morons

QuantumDelta

27-12-04, 06:13

40$Poser

27-12-04, 07:21

then go play those MMOs
do you people think KK does these rollbacks for fun!? do you think they know!? do you expect a message "Rollback in three weeks its a two day rollback at exactly 16:45 GMT" FFS they hate these more then you do.
morons

Most other MMORPGs use better character models that aren't struggling to keep track of themselves.

no they don't, no, no..., and I doubt it.

Oh well wouldn't be the worst rollback, nothing beats the end of neo 1 saturn issues eh? Keep your fingers crossed that the servers never encounter that level of a rollback issue.

trigger hurt

27-12-04, 09:48

Trigger;
Nid is one of the few mods I have never seen talk utter bollocks ever, anyway.

Even if it weren't in the official forum -- he would have checked it before saying something like that.
If he isn't informed, he doesn't comment.
If he is informed, he comments only if need be.

He is a good Mod.
Christ knows why anyone respects him eh?
QD, I never said he wasn't a good mod. I never said he talks "utter bollocks". On the other hand, by his own admission in the past, he is not an official member of the KK dev team and may not have all the information or may not be allowed to pass it on.

What I am saying is that, while whoever he is chatting with getting information from is online, why can't THEY post something? Rollbacks are one of the worst things that can happen. I have learned to live with them when it comes to KK and their management of customer data.

What would be nice though, is if I could know if they had any clue as to what is causing the issue and when it will be fixed so I can stop wasting my 2 or 3 hours of free time I have set aside to play neocron and go do something else. I don't want to play my chars because if there is a rollback, I just wasted my time.

I pay for this game like anyone else. Through all of the rollbacks, I have never once seen any compensation for sheer screw ups on their part. The saturn rollback in the last weeks of NC1. I lost a capped psi monk that I spent 3 weeks leveling to get him ready for NC2. His psi core, ds, multi slotted spells...all gone. Yeah, there was no item tracking so I was fucked. Now, there was the promise of item tracking in NC2. It's not there. So now, when I and others lose shit and it causes a need for a rollback...we're still fucked. When will we, the people who pay their salaries, get more than a "oops, we screwed up again, you should have seen the look on our faces"

zii

27-12-04, 19:39

A selection of my drugs have stopped working since the last patch. I have no idea if it is in connection with the current Terra instability issues.

However, I suspect that they stopped working after the drone theme week's drones were turned into Milky Rens during patches 123+124, as they now do the same thing: nothing. I do hope that my Tiger Bloods and K.Nightshades have not been affected in the same way.

Zheo

28-12-04, 00:58

NOthing missing from inventories and gogo's?

So you missed the 4 or 5 people online last night who said they were missing entire inventories, couldn't even gr into their custom apartments and were missing stuff from their gogo's as well?

Yeah. They relogged. They rebooted. They zoned.

Agreed one of my characters had his app cleared out. It will probably be a roll back as that is KK's main way to fixing things...

One question though, assuming a roll back is merly copying a saved state of NC before the corruption, then why wasnt/isnt this done in the first instanence so that a roll back is only of an hour or two instead of days? It would seem that if a roll back is needed and indeed KK have done enough to know the symptons it would be far more sensible to do the roll back asap so less time is lost,

Why people hate rollbacks? It's like you haven't played the game because anything between the rollback time and the time it is desided to do the rollback is lost for instands if a 3day roll back takes place anything in those 3 days is gone.

Personally I view that as being cheated out of 3days of pay'd playing because you cant do anything in the way of advancing your characters or trading.

Perhaps KK could introduce some sort of fall back system, where players that lose out after a roll back are compensated by say a certain amount of exp and cash based on their level and what that character could realisiticly do in those three days?

Just a though, im sure the staff are doing everything they can do avoid a roll back, fingers crossed they dont have to roll back!

Good Luck KK!

Asurmen Spec Op

28-12-04, 01:55

Agreed one of my characters had his app cleared out. It will probably be a roll back as that is KK's main way to fixing things...

One question though, assuming a roll back is merly copying a saved state of NC before the corruption, then why wasnt/isnt this done in the first instanence so that a roll back is only of an hour or two instead of days? It would seem that if a roll back is needed and indeed KK have done enough to know the symptons it would be far more sensible to do the roll back asap so less time is lost,

Why people hate rollbacks? It's like you haven't played the game because anything between the rollback time and the time it is desided to do the rollback is lost for instands if a 3day roll back takes place anything in those 3 days is gone.

Personally I view that as being cheated out of 3days of pay'd playing because you cant do anything in the way of advancing your characters or trading.

Perhaps KK could introduce some sort of fall back system, where players that lose out after a roll back are compensated by say a certain amount of exp and cash based on their level and what that character could realisiticly do in those three days?

Just a though, im sure the staff are doing everything they can do avoid a roll back, fingers crossed they dont have to roll back!

Good Luck KK! yoou dont pay to advace you pay to play

40$Poser

28-12-04, 01:59

yoou dont pay to advace you pay to play

excuse me while I pull a metal gear solid here

?

now that that's done. It's come quite evident that you are failing to understand that these issues have effected some people. And they have every reason to be upset. Posts such as your above mentioned one have 0 value as to anything besides adding a number next to your post count.

IceStorm

28-12-04, 02:31

yoou dont pay to advace you pay to playWe pay for a persistent world. That's a core feature of MMORPGs. Without it, NC is, as I said, a rather lame FPS. There are plenty of FPS offerings that are free (ET) or pay-once (UT/Q3A/HL2/CS) which are far better than NC.

Rollbacks break the persistent part of persistent world. After that's gone, NC's just a big FPS map with only a few people per zone.

If you don't care about persistence, then why play NC?

Obsidian X

28-12-04, 03:16

excuse me while I pull a metal gear solid here

?

now that that's done. It's come quite evident that you are failing to understand that these issues have effected some people. And they have every reason to be upset. Posts such as your above mentioned one have 0 value as to anything besides adding a number next to your post count.

Say hello to my new sig! :D

Durandal|AI

28-12-04, 03:46

Hello sig! :D

Any news? Just popped in, havent played the whole WE because of teh rollback fear. KK have had a day to work on it (after christmas WE, no holidays for coders imho), and still no official post anywhere... starting to get on my already fraught nerves O_o

eprodigy

28-12-04, 03:56

Who wants to take bets on a January fix ?

EDIT: no particular reason for editing other then not being so mad (see below)

Durandal|AI

28-12-04, 03:59

Who wants to take bets on a January fix ?

Done :lol:

100k for you if they leave it tell next year (Im ruining myself :angel: )

/Edit: Why did you edit eprodiy? Those homosexual PEs cant be as bad as the monks(?) wearing Plants on their heads... im kinda afraid of those

eprodigy

28-12-04, 04:00

I am going to be rich :D

eprodigy

28-12-04, 04:44

Yawn. so Monday ends with no doubt in my mind they've not even looked at the server. Still paying money for a broken server.

Durandal|AI

28-12-04, 04:53

Monday ended 4 hours ago ;) ... at least for KK that is ....

Jake Cutter

28-12-04, 07:41

I work in broadcasting...the transmitter has to be on 24/7, that's how we make our money.

If the transmitter goes off in the middle of the night, the engineer is called in to fix it...doesn't matter if it's at 3 in the morning, or a holiday, it's one of those things that has to happen. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

I am sympathetic for holiday breaks and such, but isn't there some contingency plan in place for this type of situation? Surely more than one or two people on staff at KK know how to deal with these problems.

As for neither encouraging or discouraging people to play during a period when the server db may be compromised--the only way I'd accept that is if it were on the program launcher window, not just the forums.

Rollback? I just got a four-slot Tangent epic rifle today. I'd be highly pissed if that goes away.

Regards,
Jake Cutter

QuantumDelta

28-12-04, 08:13

Agent FunHead

28-12-04, 09:59

School of Pessimistic Thought: A Rollback is unavoidable. We have seen these sort of problems before (green runners, hilarious haircuts etc) and back then a rollback was the answer. Therefore, brace for another one. The legendary Christmas Rollback...

School of Optimistic Thought: A Rollback is unlikely to occur. There are no missing items from peoples' appartments or gogus. Nothing has mysteriously disappeared, and therefore there is no need returning to a previous state of the game. Many claim that the problem has to do with a corrupted graphics' file, therefore the entire databse is not corrupted. Graphics glitches are knows to MMORPG databse admins everywhere. Verdict: Fear not, and carry on playing, as the problem may be fixed soon with another patch.

Well, personally I belong to the second school of thought. We all try to enjoy our Xmas & New Year holidays (so do KK and forum mods) and I can't see any reason to be extremely outraged about the present uncertainty. Just carry on playing. lads.

And your join date proves this hahaha

soz couldnt resist lol.

Im pretty sure that when KK does a rollback it is because it is unavoidable and I agree with you that to decide not to play just because you suspect there may be a rollback comming soon is just silly but what I would like to know is that are the majority of these rollbacks down to typical server glitches or down to something wrong with the way the game works (be that with the coding or the Dbase or the servers themselves) and I would love to know what is being done to fix these.

Its very very worrying to me when I hear though that a bug like green skin cannot be fixed without a rollback. Surely the admin has the ability to edit database records & player model stuff like this (granted i read that green skin bug is a bigger problem than just the player model showing a pure green pe skin since then players inflicted with this bug later found they could not wear their PA when it got a CLASS only tag so obviously there chars whole record was borked).

hmm maybe its better we dont hear about progress on bugs from kk lol

Admin - hi k guys well this is another bug thats got us stumped erm maybe if we remove all those mobs out at regents that no one hunts and then make a new doy tiny box tunnel like the ones in the desert that force you to stop using 3rd person cos if the low roof and gay pillars.

The reason im not playing NC2 this christmas is that Anarchy Online are giving 1 year subscription for free if you sign up before the 18th of jan or something
and you dont have to give em any real deatails so its not like one of those ******** u still gotta give cc details lol. AO seems alright like a SWG without all the ******** and uber low fps in town hahah The PvP isnt very great but then since NC2 added these new player models we lag everytime your client has to load one of em (at least in DX9 anyways) which makes moving around the city a real goddamn pain.

notneo

28-12-04, 10:42

yeah

tried ao as well ,not my kind of thing but each to their own

not even attempting to log on till an official announcment

in fact re activated city of heroes and really enjoying not being ganked every time i log on,with the new content it is starting to be ok,and you dont have to find a conster/resser/poker to lvl.In fact the community is damn good,won

2nd prize in the costume contest and got enough cash from a high lvl player to keep me going for a long time

jini

28-12-04, 11:08

Bank.
Holiday.

Unless you were asking for an emergancy service;
Like the kinda thing you'd dial 911 or 999 for, most people would seriously tell you to FO.

Or Should they up their rates to include the holiday servicing?

Wanna know what a fucking plumber would cost on the monday subsequent to a boxingday sunday?
HAH!

Anyway:
If you're pissed about the advancement wasted work stuff;
Just go work on some other stuff, or take the time to fuck around with your setup do stupid things you'd never normally do and try to learn something about the game.
Christ most of the people who whine are the idiots that don't know what they're doing ingame anyway so it's probably a decent chance for you to go experiment on stuff.

Ok...not gonna kill anybody now....*breathe*

Seriously though, if I were them and you were demanding service during a bank holiday or a international holiday, you'd be seein the finger from me.
Working NYE is bad enough.
This is a 24/7 service. There is allways a small backup team for emergencies. Just imagine what would happen if you were trying to reach the hospital for an emergency, only to hear that it's a holiday.

Besides, in holidays there are people that have some time free and "maybe" want to invest in playing, maybe

At times like this, I can only remember DJ commenting on higest uptime on NC2 comparing to other similar mmorpgs. After what? a week? more? and nobody can at least give a guarantee that either:
1. there's not gonna be a Rollback, so you can keep doing what you do (idiots or not, they are still paying customers QD...)
2. there will be a rollback meaning all this time will be accounted for what? downtime or not?

Jake Cutter

28-12-04, 11:08

QD--I said I was sympathetic to it being the holidays.

FYI - I have worked more holidays than I care to remember, most of them involuntarily.

Second, Neocron is not a bank. If it were a bank we could only play it from 9am to 5pm and not on weekends. :D

You want to tell people that they're playing at their own risk? Then put something on the Launcher Page. A fair percentage of people don't even come to the forums.

I did not intend to question the right of KK personnel to take holiday leave. Perhaps it would be better to discuss whether or not it was a good idea to put Terra online again with the possibility that it would require a rollback to repair the damage.

The announcement thread makes no mention of database damage, only that Terra's server cluster is running at limited capacity.

But, the last time these particular in-game symptoms appeared, we got a rollback. So that's where all the paranoia is coming from.

So far, I've seen a droner with a hacknet bird mob for a hat, and a tank with female PE hair (that actually made him look pretty bad-ass) Not to mention that we all look like bald colorblind street pimps with purple pants.

So to those of you who lost inventory, let's hope they can fix your situation without an entire server rollback. Because for those of us who bothered to play during this period of time (who know what we're doing) it would be a shame to have that just thrown away.

Cheers,
Jake Profitt

IceStorm

28-12-04, 11:24

This is a 24/7 service.No, it's not. I'm fairly certain the ToS doesn't guarantee 100% uptime.
There is allways a small backup team for emergencies.Uh, KK is a small team to begin with. There isn't a smaller small team to fix the servers when they fail.

You do understand that NC is run by a very small outfit, right? It's not a Sony or Microsoft or Lucas Arts...

Jesterthegreat

28-12-04, 12:07

thing is... not only do people have no faith, but this isnt the first time these problems have happened like this...

linky to the page where hopes are shattered... (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=116800&page=10&pp=15)

from this:

We're still trying to figure this one out. The seems to be no data corruption, yet all the models are whacky.

Saturn is still running on its old hardware, Terra is using new hardware and it's nowhere close to using all its resources.

(sound familiar?)

to this:

Well... unfortunately the character data was corrupt after all, the only way to fix the models was to load a backup from shortly before the first incidents happened, midnight CEST (GMT+2) last night, a rollback of roughly 12 hours.

We are still investigating the cause of this and will hopefully have a fix ready for the next patch. Sorry :(

NOTE: before idiots start screaming those were announcements about a previous problem... i am not saying that Terra is definatly going to be rolled back, this is NOT an announcement...

:edit: how long does this have to be the most expensive MMO on the market before people stop using KK's money as an excuse for poor service?

I'm sure when i looked i couldn't find an MMO with a higher subscription fee... or more problems :p

jini

28-12-04, 12:16

No, it's not. I'm fairly certain the ToS doesn't guarantee 100% uptime. Yes it is. One has nothing to do with the other. Learn the difference, then come here preaching.

Uh, KK is a small team to begin with. There isn't a smaller small team to fix the servers when they fail.
You do understand that NC is run by a very small outfit, right? It's not a Sony or Microsoft or Lucas Arts... How do you know all that? You work for them? Or you just guessing?

IceStorm

28-12-04, 12:31

Yes it is.Because they leave the servers up in a colocation facility does not mean they're monitored 24/7 for anything beyond what the colo monitors for them.
One has nothing to do with the other.A 24x7 service, in my experience, is one in which there is someone always on-call/at the ready to fix something - Cisco TAC, UUNet support, Police, Fire, etc. While NC's servers are up all the time, the coders and people who know the database are not working around the clock on a scheduled basis.
Learn the difference, then come here preaching.You're the one who needs to learn the difference, not I. I know all too well about what it means to be a 24x7 shop.
How do you know all that?Beta, conversations, people in the know, etc. My forum registration date isn't some fluke. It corresponds to the month I was accepted into beta...

trigger hurt

28-12-04, 16:19

I think, the ToS garuntees a percentage of uptime. I also think that with 2 rollbacks at least having already occured and one rollback ominously looming over the horizon, that they have missed that percentrage of uptime severly.

At this point, KK is just being inconsiderate. They know we want some word on the issue. They've either ignored us or they just don't know. Both of which are quite laughable.

IceStorm

28-12-04, 16:36

At this point, KK is just being inconsiderate.They can't really say more than "we don't know" if they don't know. I suspect the few people who could "know" are not reachable via normal communication methods.

Let's hope they weren't vacationing in Sri Lanka....

Heavyporker

28-12-04, 16:57

Just gotta say - about price of subs, costs of running this game are not subject to negotiation, price MUST cover these costs. Larger games can afford a lower subscription price to its players because there are more of them.

Oh, and there IS the exchange rate. You don't like it, bitch to your country's economic official.

Just getting tired of hearing all this bitching of "most expensive game on the market" and so on.

Brammers

28-12-04, 18:05

Spermy

28-12-04, 18:16

Yes it is. One has nothing to do with the other. Learn the difference, then come here preaching.

It's true dude, You aren't gauranteed - 100% uptime, therefore you aren't gauranteed 24/7 service. You can recieve service out of game still, from accounts etc etc, but the term service in the TOS is used to describe game time.

While technically you aren't gauranteed 24/7 game time, more often than not, we have recieved it.

Both you guys raise good points, as it is all about how people interpret the details set out in the TOS. and if people do draw flawed conclusions, they either haven't read it properly, or the TOS needs a rework.

How do you know all that? You work for them? Or you just guessing?

He works for me! He is a plant! etc etc.

It's all in the quotes. - Chill out peoples.

LOST

28-12-04, 18:23

trigger hurt

28-12-04, 18:46

[insert whinge]

[new, funny kk bash]

[more abuse]

makes you wonder about the sanity and lives some people lead doesn't it....

edit: no one can ever guarantee 100% on anything from blue skies to meta-particle physics.....so shut up.
I'll remember this when something happens to you that makes your experience with neocron shitty and you come back and complain here. I haven't been able to level my main character in almost a week now because KK haven't gotten off of their asses to either fix the issue and rollback or to tell us to go fuck ourselves. Personally, a lot of people are leaving this game and aren't posting leaving threads and it has a lot to do with these situations right here.

You people whine and complain about the community being shitty toward each other and causing people to leave...what about those people who are just fine with the community but can't stand kk any longer? Do they not get any consideration at all?

Spermy

28-12-04, 18:58

Wank3r

28-12-04, 19:02

[ edited ]

trigger hurt

28-12-04, 19:07

Whatever happens Happens - Chill.

Personally I have a shedload of levels to lose - 3 new weapons to get all over again - and 3 imps to find again, one of which is an SF - do you see me worrying? No. Will I be annoyed at a rollback, Yes.

BUT

All it is is a bunch of ones and zeros. Regardless of how much time I spent on it, it's just a meaningless bit of data in a game. I suggest those getting worked up about it, remember that, and try to take it a little less seriously - we've all spent a lot of time on it, getting stuff, we're not all flying off the handle.
I wish you tards would stop putting words in my mouth. Not once have I bitched about the fact that there might be a rollback. I am bitching about the fact that if there is going to be one, just fucking do it already. I've now paid KK a weeks worth a play time and haven't been able to log in on my main once for fear of losing levels or items.

trigger hurt

28-12-04, 19:08

[ edited ]
I played it. Tried it for 2 weeks.

That game works like this.

run some quests so you can run some more quests that allow you to run even more quests. If you see a guy point at him and click to attack him, but if you haven't done enough quests, you won't hit him at all.

Yeah. Real. Fuckin. Fun.

Spermy

28-12-04, 19:09

I wish you tards would stop putting words in my mouth. Not once have I bitched about the fact that there might be a rollback. I am bitching about the fact that if there is going to be one, just fucking do it already. I've now paid KK a weeks worth a play time and haven't been able to log in on my main once for fear of losing levels or items.

Did I quote you?

erm... no.

But take note, as just now, I did. See, now I'm replying directly to you, And this;

I've now paid KK a weeks worth a play time and haven't been able to log in on my main once for fear of losing levels or items.

Would actually qualify as what I was talking about. If you paid, you may as well play - rather than just waste your money - I'll tell you what, give it to me instead, I'll make good use of it.

trigger hurt

28-12-04, 19:11

Did I quote you?

erm...

No.
No need to. You posted right underneath my post which means you were talking to everyone who's posted thoughts in this thread, which means my comments still apply.

Spermy

28-12-04, 19:13

No need to. You posted right underneath my post which means you were talking to everyone who's posted thoughts in this thread, which means my comments still apply.

Sorry - Non flamage here, but look up, I found a bit that did apply after all.

I wasn't really having a shot at you in particular, but anyone who pays and whines ;)

Asurmen Spec Op

28-12-04, 19:14

and on another note you pay to play not to advance so ya might as well play

Wank3r

28-12-04, 19:15

I played it. Tried it for 2 weeks.

That game works like this.

run some quests so you can run some more quests that allow you to run even more quests. If you see a guy point at him and click to attack him, but if you haven't done enough quests, you won't hit him at all.

Yeah. Real. Fuckin. Fun.

I can see you didn't really play it properly then...

You didn't explore the world, you didn't do huge raids and you haven't done half the stuff that makes the game fun.

Personally, I'd play anything other than Neocron...where the servers are shit, you lose half your items, progress and other stuff every week.

At least WoW gives you something to do. Quests...a storyline...a REAL game.

Lets sum up Neocron (without going off topic)...

Login...go to some shit caves...SUPERB graphics! What's THAT! OMFG ITS A MOB CONSISTING OF 12 POLYGONS! Is that the little 5/5 mob from the sewers? NO! Its a BRAND NEW 120/120 MOB! WITH A NEW NAME, MORE HP, AND ITS BEEN SCALED UP! OMG SO COOL!

So you've kill that 120/120. You've gained a bit of exp. Lets keep doing it till I level some. w00t. Level...

*Logs in the next day*

Yay! I've lost my level from yesterday due to a rollback! Lets start over!

Spermy

28-12-04, 19:19

I can see you didn't really play it properly then...

You didn't explore the world, you didn't do huge raids and you haven't done half the stuff that makes the game fun.

Personally, I'd play anything other than Neocron...where the servers are shit, you lose half your items, progress and other stuff every week.

At least WoW gives you something to do. Quests...a storyline...a REAL game.

Lets sum up Neocron (without going off topic)...

Login...go to some shit caves...SUPERB graphics! What's THAT! OMFG ITS A MOB CONSISTING OF 12 POLYGONS! Is that the little 5/5 mob from the sewers? NO! Its a BRAND NEW 120/120 MOB! WITH A NEW NAME, MORE HP, AND ITS BEEN SCALED UP! OMG SO COOL!

So you've kill that 120/120. You've gained a bit of exp. Lets keep doing it till I level some. w00t. Level...

*Logs in the next day*

Yay! I've lost my level from yesterday due to a rollback! Lets start over!

Wow - you're forum name is like - Sooooo applicable! Like Rilly!

Login...go to some shit caves...SUPERB graphics! What's THAT! OMFG ITS A MOB CONSISTING OF 12 POLYGONS!

Wow - GFX - be all and end all of games TBh.

So you've kill that 120/120. You've gained a bit of exp. Lets keep doing it till I level some. w00t. Level...

W00T CS login - run hacks Buy shit right away BLAMBLAMBLAM PWNED! Random comment about someones race/mother PWN IR KILLJ00 NIB! Blamblam etc

Kicked for hacks.

Soryy mate - I'd rather earn my levels than see a game degenerate into "lets buy all the cool shit rightaway using cashhacks - strike"

Wank3r

28-12-04, 19:27

Wow - you're forum name is like - Sooooo applicable! Like Rilly!

Wow - GFX - be all and end all of games TBh.

W00T CS login - run hacks Buy shit right away BLAMBLAMBLAM PWNED! Random comment about someones race/mother PWN IR KILLJ00 NIB! Blamblam etc

Kicked for hacks.

Soryy mate - I'd rather earn my levels than see a game degenerate into "lets buy all the cool shit rightaway using cashhacks - strike"

Sorry...but I have NO idea what relevance your post has in response to mine...Apart from the comment about graphics. Not sure if you realised, but graphics are a huge part of a game. Obviously not to you...you play Neocron.

Also, who mentioned Counterstrike. CS is awesome...both Source and 1.6. But thats nothing to do with rollbacks, and the fact that NC sucks.

EDIT: Also, how the hell can you comment on my name...LOOK AT YOURS FFS!

LOST

28-12-04, 19:33

trigger - my post wasnt directed to you....and your post just makes me wanna have a go at you. making some big assumptions. (saturn / having 4 epic runs from 2 rollbacks / a capped conster left behind) i think a fair bit has happened that could be reasons for quiting.

but im not - it was a pretty accurate statement of most posts in the forum since the problems (and before).

i think i can bitch with the best but because a partial server cluster is haveing a tit of a time im not suprised and so, won't. i do ,however, see the issues are similar to those at the beginning of terra and hope like everyone that there isnt a rollback. doesnt stop me playing.

Spermy

28-12-04, 19:35

Sorry...but I have NO idea what relevance your post has in response to mine...Apart from the comment about graphics. Not sure if you realised, but graphics are a huge part of a game. Obviously not to you...you play Neocron.

Yes, Yes I do. Your point?

Also, who mentioned Counterstrike. CS is awesome...both Source and 1.6. But thats nothing to do with rollbacks, and the fact that NC sucks.

THATS what CS has to do with it. The only people who raise issues such as yours tend to be the "I want Instant E penis gratification" people, You simply will not find it here, so By all means - go enjoy CS.

EDIT: Also, how the hell can you comment on my name...LOOK AT YOURS FFS!

I commented on yours because it fit perfectly with my view at the time. You can call someone a wanker... But all you get when you call someone a spermy is...

Well, this. :wtf:

jini

28-12-04, 19:41

uh oh. Nid is here! quick! hide! :D

LOST

28-12-04, 19:44

fight fight fight..

*all the kiddies in the playground form a perfect circle*

then Niddy takes a deep breath and inks up the 'edit' stamp.

trigger hurt

28-12-04, 19:51

I can see you didn't really play it properly then...

You didn't explore the world, you didn't do huge raids and you haven't done half the stuff that makes the game fun.

Personally, I'd play anything other than Neocron...where the servers are shit, you lose half your items, progress and other stuff every week.

At least WoW gives you something to do. Quests...a storyline...a REAL game.

Lets sum up Neocron (without going off topic)...

Login...go to some shit caves...SUPERB graphics! What's THAT! OMFG ITS A MOB CONSISTING OF 12 POLYGONS! Is that the little 5/5 mob from the sewers? NO! Its a BRAND NEW 120/120 MOB! WITH A NEW NAME, MORE HP, AND ITS BEEN SCALED UP! OMG SO COOL!

So you've kill that 120/120. You've gained a bit of exp. Lets keep doing it till I level some. w00t. Level...

*Logs in the next day*

Yay! I've lost my level from yesterday due to a rollback! Lets start over!
I spent 50 bucks buying the game and played half of my 1 month trial to find that the game, to me, was total shit. I don't need to go on raids to determine that I fucking hate questing day after day after day. If that's for you, great...you'd probably enjoy other treadmills such as

Everquest
Anarchy Online
Everquest II
Star Wars Galaxies.

but me. I don't have the time, dedication or attention span to play games such as that.

Zaq

28-12-04, 21:09

Kozmos

28-12-04, 21:14

Just because the UK has a bank holiday on Monday and Tuesday doesn't mean the rest of the world do :rolleyes:

Nope, but as Xmas and boxin day was on saturday and sunday, prettymuch ever country in europe has the bank holiday days in 'lieu' on the monday and tuesday, and i believe the US have their national holiday thingies the same way if thanks givin falls on a weekend

[Edit] :rolleyes:

eprodigy

28-12-04, 21:53

Obviously not to you...you play Neocron.

Why are you here ? Doesn't Blizzard have a forum for WoW ? The truth is, I don't think anyone here cares about your opinion if all you can do is spam these forums with your little insults to Neocron. :rolleyes:

---

Terra: I agree with some of the pasts posts, FIX the problem or ROLLBACK but do it now so I can play again. I am dying to login but cannot do so now. FIX THE PROBLEM YOU ARE CHARGING ME FOR SOMETHING I CAN'T PLAY. I dont want to hear "you can play the servers online just go play'. No I cannot, now not only does my character have purple pants and no hair - my 4 apartments are empty, my gogo is missing items now, and when I logged into my tank my CS thats always in my safeslot is gone. So don't tell me just go play there might not be a rollback. If the problems aren't fixed the end of this month (who here thinks they will ...) I am not paying for January until they are.

PS. WoW is a shit game.

Richard Blade

28-12-04, 21:55

Nope, but as Xmas and boxin day was on saturday and sunday, prettymuch ever country in europe has the bank holiday days in 'lieu' on the monday and tuesday, and i believe the US have their national holiday thingies the same way if thanks givin falls on a weekend

[Edit] :rolleyes:

Basically, the only people that don't work on Holidays in the US are the automobile union(factory workers) and people that work for state and federal government(postal service, government offices - clerks).
Everyone else works at least a couple holidays during the year.
Service jobs, retail jobs, broadcasting - TV & Radio.
The key thing is that even on Christmas, you could get a phone repair guy or a plumber to show up and fix your stuff.
If someone mentions it, yes, it might cost a little extra, but they'll be there.
Since we pay a set fee each month for this service, KK should be expected to incur any expenses that come from operating. That includes pulling in their crack repair crews on Holidays if needed.

I don't mean to offend those individuals, I understand that people of different nationalities take their holidays more seriously than others.

Over here, there is always someone willing to work a holiday. Why? Because someone else might have a need for them to be there. People may say we are a country of <insert racial slur here> but we do care for each other. Especially on holidays like Christmas. Those of us who aren't working tend to be more polite to those who are. It's part of an understanding to show them how much we apreciate their efforts and sacrifices.

Some of you should lay off of KK with the nastiness, but KK should also have done something about this situation a little more definite than, "we don't know". A weeks loss by everyone on Terra is totally unacceptable.(if it happens.)

eprodigy

28-12-04, 21:59

A weeks loss by everyone on Terra is totally unacceptable.

A week loss has almost already happened to most of us no matter what they do (if they ever do anything) to fix it... I like how there announcement said most likely not until next week. Hmm so what thats til saturday. and since you said "most likely" it could actually be 3 months from now and its still true...

IceStorm

28-12-04, 23:40

Since we pay a set fee each month for this service, KK should be expected to incur any expenses that come from operating. That includes pulling in their crack repair crews on Holidays if needed.KK's German. Germans take days off. Because USA-based players are playing the game does not mean it has to provide support that lives up to our expectations.

We're playing an import. We're bound by their rules and customs, not ours.

It's one thing to be a USA-based global financial firm and bitch out Level3 in Europe for not fixing a circuit over the holiday weekend. It's another to be a USA-based person playing a German entertainment offering and expecting the same level of support as the financial firm.

The USA is not the center of the world. New York City may be, but not the USA. :-)
prettymuch ever country in europe has the bank holiday days in 'lieu' on the monday and tuesdayI don't know how Europe works it, but here a "bank holiday" just means the banks are closed. It doesn't mean business in general is closed. The exchanges are still open and trading. Regardless, the corporate holiday calendar at work doesn't list holidays for any of the European offices save London. The other European offices are open Monday and Tuesday - Frankfurt, Paris, Milan - none are listed as closed. And they keep that calendar quite up to date. There are Asian holidays listed there that I've never heard of. :-)

Brammers

29-12-04, 00:08

The UK is still on a Holiday today. Some places are trading, but it's an offical holiday today.

I think tomorrow is a normal working day in the UK, but I'm not 100% sure.

Then we get to the rest of Europe. They have slightly different holidays as well.

One other thing. There are culture differences between the US, UK and Europe, it's time to learn about them.

40$Poser

29-12-04, 01:55

Say hello to my new sig! :D

w00t

anyways this whole issue of support over the holidays. I know everyone has friends and family to attend to, but in the world of the internet, there isn't holidays concerning mmorpgs. They still run, customers still log. I can understand as Reakktor isn't the biggest game company around, but when it becomes a matter of a week or two before anything is addressed or done. That becomes a little outrageous. Especially if there were to be a rollback, I'd hope in good faith reakktor would re-enburst the members for possibly a lost week of time. It'd only be fair to us paying customers, especially if we lost a substantial amount of time that was played.

Although it's only well wishing, I doubt it'd really happen. I mean the whole Saturn 'oh shit' end of neo 1 ordeal. That really didn't do a whole lot to the faithful customers of reakktor's virtual neocron world.

One other thing. There are culture differences between the US, UK and Europe, it's time to learn about them.

Perhaps then Americans should recieve their own server with their own side of support so things will run according to each part of the world? To avoid this issue as a whole?

trigger hurt

29-12-04, 02:13

I was just on the c2p website...not sure what for...but I found this little tag line to be funny.

Asurmen Spec Op

29-12-04, 02:35

w00t

anyways this whole issue of support over the holidays. I know everyone has friends and family to attend to, but in the world of the internet, there isn't holidays concerning mmorpgs. They still run, customers still log. I can understand as Reakktor isn't the biggest game company around, but when it becomes a matter of a week or two before anything is addressed or done. That becomes a little outrageous. Especially if there were to be a rollback, I'd hope in good faith reakktor would re-enburst the members for possibly a lost week of time. It'd only be fair to us paying customers, especially if we lost a substantial amount of time that was played.

Although it's only well wishing, I doubt it'd really happen. I mean the whole Saturn 'oh shit' end of neo 1 ordeal. That really didn't do a whole lot to the faithful customers of reakktor's virtual neocron world.

Perhaps then Americans should recieve their own server with their own side of support so things will run according to each part of the world? To avoid this issue as a whole? see the thing is though only the old saturn rollback would warent a refund.
You dont pay to make your charecter better, you pay to play, what you do when you play is up to you

Seven

29-12-04, 02:38

Neocron is a service.
It's a service because they are charging money to maintain the hardware and software to run the service.

Holidays come, the staff goes on leave, people get sick, the staff gets stressed, shit happens in the middle of the night.

All of the above do not concern me (the customer), because I'm paying for a service that I cannot provide for myself.

That's why I pay money.
Before I go on, let me stress as I have done in many other posts.

KK's worker bust their freaking asses and work long hours. God bless them.

KK's management is somewhere between a pile of doody and a new lightbulb.
It always stinks, but sometimes burns bright.

Right now it's doody.

If you are running a service to paying customers you should in all good faith (regardless of what little anecdotes provided by "lawyers" and the like to smooth over every conceivable "mishap") is just fibble babble to protect your ass from lawsuits.

Any company would be stupid NOT to have a Terms of Service document.

However, when my furnace broke on Christmas Eve two years ago, I called my heating service and had someone out in the middle of the night to fix it.
Why did they do that?
Because they are providing a service and someone has to be on call in case of an emergency.

Now, in this case I would completely expect no rollback because KK's management said it wasn't needed. Or was it said? They didn't say, at least not to us..

I expect to log in tonight, play, trade, level and sell, and it all will be saved tomorrow, because all is well as far as KK's big wigs are concerned.

If we get another "you should have seen the OH SHIT on our faces" crap again, the they really need to sell this game to a company that acts as one.
__________________

IceStorm

29-12-04, 02:59

Perhaps then Americans should recieve their own server with their own side of support so things will run according to each part of the world?People don't seem to get the idea of an "import", do they? Would you prefer they just cut off anyone coming from a country they don't have an official presence in?
Neocron is a service.Yeah, but it isn't a 24x7 service. It says so in the Terms of Service. In fact, they state there will be approximately 4.5 days per quarter of downtime (95% uptime per quarter, you do the math) and another 4 days per year on top of that.

You can read it all here (http://launcher.neocron.com/index.php?module=agb&VERSION=125&LANG=ENG&IP=062.1). So far, they don't appear to be violating the spirit of the ToS as it's written.

Seven

29-12-04, 05:01

Yeah, but it's talking "downtime"
I'd rather the servers be down than up and not saving our progress which will involve a rollback.

Since they are keeping the servers up, stats are supposed to be saved.

Since no one from KK who can make an official statement on the stiuation has, other than what we have gotten already, things are just fine and dandy. o_O

40$Poser

29-12-04, 06:21

People don't seem to get the idea of an "import", do they? Would you prefer they just cut off anyone coming from a country they don't have an official presence in?Yeah, but it isn't a 24x7 service. It says so in the Terms of Service. In fact, they state there will be approximately 4.5 days per quarter of downtime (95% uptime per quarter, you do the math) and another 4 days per year on top of that.

You can read it all here (http://launcher.neocron.com/index.php?module=agb&VERSION=125&LANG=ENG&IP=062.1). So far, they don't appear to be violating the spirit of the ToS as it's written.

incase you did not know. Neocron 1 was release in the United States and Canada. Hard to call it an import when it was actually released within the states. Then when neocron 2 hit, those who purchased neocron 1 and had an account could upgrade.

And of course the ToS covers Reakktor because that'd be just plan stupid for it not to. Are you surprised?

Best advice, don't market where you don't care to support.

see the thing is though only the old saturn rollback would warent a refund.
You dont pay to make your charecter better, you pay to play, what you do when you play is up to you

why would that warrant a refund, but yet a rollback in this instance wouldn't? That makes no sense whatsoever. People did whatever prior to the Saturn shenaningans, people are doing the same now. So if a rollback, WERE, to happen. That'd be just a equal as the saturn incident.

Thank you, come again.

eprodigy

29-12-04, 06:58

KK's German. Germans take days off. Because USA-based players are playing the game does not mean it has to provide support that lives up to our expectations.

We're playing an import. We're bound by their rules and customs, not ours.

People don't seem to get the idea of an "import", do they? Would you prefer they just cut off anyone coming from a country they don't have an official presence in?

What does that mean? Support up to our expectation?? All we demand is a server that works. The current state of the server doesn't violate there side of the ToS but it doesn't seem to quite be in the spirit of the agreement. There not obligated to fix the probelms ever really nowhere does it even say that the server will ever be up for sure.

So because they don't have an offical presence somewhere, its OK to charge them and provide shitty service ? Leaving the server in its current state for a week would be unacceptable anywhere. I think the german community would be displeased as much if it was happening on their server.

Also I really feel like some of your posts are conflicting here in terms of who your defending.

and on another note you pay to play not to advance so ya might as well play

What is that supposed to mean ? Playing Neocron IS advancing your character. Half the game is not only gaining experiance and levels but obtaining items. We do pay to play, advancing our character is a huge bulk of what playing Neocron is.

see the thing is though only the old saturn rollback would warent a refund.
You dont pay to make your charecter better, you pay to play, what you do when you play is up to you

That is such a ridiculous technicality.

Asurmen Spec Op

29-12-04, 08:06

rediculous or not, most capped people dont play to lvl
saturn being down warrented money because you couldnt play. A rollback doesnt effect if do play, its your choise if your scared. Your fault

Seven

29-12-04, 08:07

I don't want a refund, I just want what I am paying for.
So far, Reakktor Media has failed miserablely and the slience stance they have taken is a kick in the face towards us.

Oh but how they don't hesitaite to confirm something as "we fixed the so and so" exploit that was enabling people to do this and that and gain an advantage".
And yet when the database is blowing chunks and spewing massiave errors they do nothing because it is a loss we have to assume and not Reakktor Media.

Sucks to be us ehh?
Why?

*read over, fixed spelling errors*
I'm so fucking pissed over the fact we stood by KK (the money guys) and are treated like shit!

40$Poser

29-12-04, 09:13

rediculous or not, most capped people dont play to lvl
saturn being down warrented money because you couldnt play. A rollback doesnt effect if do play, its your choise if your scared. Your fault

hello sir, wisdom of ceres...

perhaps you have heard of that you can continue past getting levels towards what might formulate into wisdom of ceres. What about tradeskillers who revolve around making things, tech hunters who collect techs, there are other people who don't pvp. You do know that right?

So you are telling me that for the moments saturn was down, via maintaince or hardware issues, money should have been refunded. Yet when it comes to a rollback which basically means what you've played and done is taken away as if it never existed, basically you never played the game, money shouldn't be refunded?

I'll play an FPS online if I don't want any real progress to be saved.

Anything else you care to make up?

IceStorm

29-12-04, 09:52

incase you did not know. Neocron 1 was release in the United States and Canada. Hard to call it an import when it was actually released within the states.I believe the Neocron 1 servers are all up and running...

NC1 was released in the USA. NC2 wasn't.
All we demand is a server that works.And KK says they'll do there best to provide that 95% of the time, but they do allow for four days of maintenance a year and around 4.5 days of downtime per quarter. If they decide to go by calendar year, Terra can stay whacked out until well into 2005 if they decide to burn up all four maintenance days of 2005 at year's beginning.
Also I really feel like some of your posts are conflicting here in terms of who your defending.Why, because I can criticize their prioritization of game fixes while still tolerating their inability to fix Terra right now?

eprodigy

29-12-04, 10:44

And KK says they'll do there best to provide that 95% of the time, but they do allow for four days of maintenance a year and around 4.5 days of downtime per quarter. If they decide to go by calendar year, Terra can stay whacked out until well into 2005 if they decide to burn up all four maintenance days of 2005 at year's beginning.

I am not saying they are violating any rules, in fact there TOS is written that they never have to do anything, what I am saying is: How can they abuse their policy (yes - every other mmorpg has a similar policy - but it is expected that they will keep the servers running) and treat customers this way?

This is the problem with neocron. Its not the game. Reakktor has a great game here, it has problems but it could be a hundred times more popular. They take this great game and they destroy any chance it has with their horrible treatment of their customers.

No one paying for this game should feel cheated out of their money. But thats how I feel right now.

Seven

29-12-04, 10:44

We're getting fucked, plain and simple.. :(

jini

29-12-04, 11:24

I can only laugh viewing those numbers. So how much is it Ice? 23.997 x 6.876 ?
If the first number goes below 23.557 I will protest... prolly deactivate account
Personally, I would prefer NC as it was back then, available 24x7...

Yelly

29-12-04, 11:49

NC 1 was also down back then and servers are not down now either.
I would say.Do not do anything important and wait for them to fix it.
And if coders are free between these holydays there is nothing we can do about it.
They can be in any part of the world even.So just wait and see.No use for whining.
After result ppl can whine.Well they do it no matter what happends

40$Poser

30-12-04, 00:35

I believe the Neocron 1 servers are all up and running...

NC1 was released in the USA. NC2 wasn't.And KK says they'll do there best to provide that 95% of the time, but they do allow for four days of maintenance a year and around 4.5 days of downtime per quarter. If they decide to go by calendar year, Terra can stay whacked out until well into 2005 if they decide to burn up all four maintenance days of 2005 at year's beginning.Why, because I can criticize their prioritization of game fixes while still tolerating their inability to fix Terra right now?

You can obtain neocron 2 accounts via owning a copy of nc 1

and the internet isn't set for a specific country, as to where someone can download neocron 2 if they wanted to.

IceStorm

30-12-04, 01:25

You can obtain neocron 2 accounts via owning a copy of nc 1They're being nice. They didn't have to. It doesn't automatically entitle you to wake CoDi up in the middle of the night or interrupt his vacation to fix it when it breaks.
and the internet isn't set for a specific country, as to where someone can download neocron 2 if they wanted to.WoW is restricted by continent based on subscriber's payment address. Verizon drops all non-USA e-mail before it even gets to the recipient. China blocks sites it deems inappropriate.

It's entirely possible to drop traffic from IP blocks known to be used in specific countries, block sites in general, or restrict players based on their payment details.

Richard Blade

30-12-04, 01:50

They're being nice. They didn't have to.

I think you are wrong. They did have to. Otherwise, they would have lost every American, Austrailian, and probably most of the UK players.

QuantumDelta

30-12-04, 02:25

Avoid his second comment then.
When's Europe getting WoW?

I have ........"Social" Differences.

40$Poser

30-12-04, 03:21

They're being nice. They didn't have to. It doesn't automatically entitle you to wake CoDi up in the middle of the night or interrupt his vacation to fix it when it breaks.WoW is restricted by continent based on subscriber's payment address. Verizon drops all non-USA e-mail before it even gets to the recipient. China blocks sites it deems inappropriate.

It's entirely possible to drop traffic from IP blocks known to be used in specific countries, block sites in general, or restrict players based on their payment details.

we were talking about neocron here, not WoW. I'm aware of the WoW situation as I actually play WoW. I'm not saying that reakktor has to do anything via germany as they are in germany where as Americans and Canadians reside in North America. Thus perhaps an american staff and server would be more fitting so that each part of the world can run by it's own standards and 'customs'.

I know it's possible for IP blocks, I'm aware of certain countries blocking certain sites.

We are talking about neocron as the main focus here. That if certain parts of the world were not wanted, they'd block them from getting the game. That's not the case for neocron as I said. It can be downloaded from the internet, hardly making it much of an import.

dem0n

30-12-04, 03:40

I'd say KK was more than open on the terra issue. well, you can't complain much when you have a database crash that much I'll admit. I'd just say sh*t happens no matter how much effort you put in to make everything work. sometimes I get pissed just trying to run my server, with a firewall, a few public web services. I don't even sit at the pc in 7 days, but all of a sudden something happens. you don't know what it is or how to fix it, you just have to run your latest system image. can't even imagine what they'r going through with their servers.

but in a event that a rollback is inevitable, due to major data corruption, I'd just like if they'd say "guys, something went wrong. we have to rollback on yesterdays db. we'll do it in 24h, don't put any effort into your characters"... now that would really be great from their side to one population, while the other would spend those 24h saying how KK is sloppy, how they are unable to run their servers. yes I'd say... you just can't please the NC community.

IceStorm

30-12-04, 06:33

I know it's possible for IP blocks, I'm aware of certain countries blocking certain sites.Apparently not, as you said:
and the internet isn't set for a specific country, as to where someone can download neocron 2 if they wanted to.As to this:
That if certain parts of the world were not wanted, they'd block them from getting the game. That's not the case for neocron as I said.Did you ever stop to think they don't care if you play from another country, but aren't going to bend over backwards to help you when there's a problem? Amazon.co.uk will sell Region 2 PAL DVDs to American buyers - it doesn't mean that DVD will magically become NTSC when it crosses the border.
It can be downloaded from the internet, hardly making it much of an import.You're paying a German company for the privilige of accessing German servers sitting in Germany. It's an import - or you're an export. Either way, it isn't a USA-based MMO. Deal.

Jake Cutter

30-12-04, 08:37

Hey Ice, at this point I think you're just trying to be a jerk.

The game appears to be marketed internationally. If KK didn't want Americans playing the game, they would not have set up a mechanism to take our money.

The point of this thread seems to have been lost...we were talking about a rollback possibility, and the strategy KK took to leaving the server up.

Let's get back to that, shall we?

None of my posts in this thread were intended to personally attack any of the KK staff. I did however, raise a fair question about their operational policies. All I'd like to see out of this is some fairness, better communication, and an earnest effort to fix the problem without a rollback. I do believe that Nid and CoDi have provided some of that, to their credit.

Cheers,
Jake Cutter

dem0n

30-12-04, 10:39

You're paying a German company for the privilige of accessing German servers sitting in Germany. It's an import - or you're an export. Either way, it isn't a USA-based MMO. Deal.

if that's so, then if an american firm opened their office in another country, their products would be an import for you in america :wtf:?

if yes, then you as an american just got to be swimming in a pile of "Made in China" products, which are, if one might add, made solely by chinese labor, see, CHINESE, not almighty AMERICAN.

If not, then you have to be a fasist. You hate NC just because it's made by another firm from another country.

this idea that certin IPs are getting blocked is silly... IPs aren't regionaly identified :wtf:. that would mean that KK pays someone to do a backtrace of each IP to find out who their ISP is and where they come from... and block them out one by oneby hand. thats just as likely as a big gooey green boat to hit me on the 17th floor of my building while I'm taking a smoke on the balcony... who comes up with this bs anyway?

eprodigy

30-12-04, 11:31

We're playing an import. We're bound by their rules and customs, not ours.

If KK are simply upholding german "customs" then remind be to avoid purchasing anything next time I'm in Germany.

The topic was the possibilty of a rollback. There is obviously that possibility or it wouldn't have been mentioned in the "latest update". A rollback is the exact opposite of what this game is, and in fact what you really pay for. Even KK can't really deny that.

dem0n

30-12-04, 11:34

wtf is wrong with you people? the people are in GMT+1, your blaming them for enjoying christmas before you do? oh sorry, right. the people should screw over their holiday to be there for you.... thats sweet, charming :rolleyes:... [ edited ]

just what customs are you reffering to? please, I'd love to know :wtf:. I actualy think you hate them for having actual customs?

eprodigy

30-12-04, 11:37

just what customs are you reffering to? please, I'd love to know :wtf:. I actualy think you hate them for having actual customs?

im hoping that wasn't directed towards me ? because I personally feel that customs or traditions have nothing to do with this. and was not showing any disrespect for anyones customs, only that I feel this is a business.

however, in a business if it's your custom requires you to ignore your customers, then you can't expect them to not be any less angry because of it. people say its christmas cut them some slack. not only is this not an excuse, many people do not even celebrate the holiday - a serious business cannot use this as an excuse, a serious business cares about there customers. not neccesarily speaking of reakktor but not discluding them either.

late for me ill wake up and see if this made any sense.

dem0n

30-12-04, 15:12

trigger hurt

30-12-04, 15:23

ok, lets look at it this way. according to law regulations, afaik a few days of each year are allocated for religious celebrations. christmas gets 1 day. it's celebrated for 3 days [again, afaik I'm not christian]. it's said that 1 free day will be allocated for this celebration. the social dimension of religion states that someones beliefs are his own private matter to practicate. so... did you enjoy yourself on christmas. I bet you did... do you want to deny them of the same rights? did they need to be boud in their offices while their girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, etc. were outside? they don't own a shopping center so they need to work on christmas to raise their profits... what were you doing online on christmas when half the sane world was out there enjoying themselves.

Uhm. I think you've missed the point by about...oh...a mile or so. Noone here has a problem with them taking Christmas eve and Christmas day off. I don't think anyone has a problem with them taking boxing day, whatever that is, off. Where the problem comes in, is that they obviously knew about the issue but chose to remain silent for a couple of days or relay information through Nid. It's like they are scared to come out and say "server's fucked, sorry". Why, when the server is in such bad condition, did they not just bring it down. Avoid any unneccesary confusion. Their ToS allows for the server to be down. If the server is borked, it should not be reachable by any client.

Spermy

30-12-04, 15:58

The game appears to be marketed internationally. If KK didn't want Americans playing the game, they would not have set up a mechanism to take our money.

Wrong - America just so happens to be connected to the internet, which funnily enough is a medium for NCs distribution, Just because it's on there doesn't mean you were it's intended Target. I'm sure not every porno flick on the web has lexxes name on them, even though he is probably one of the biggest users, ya get me?

Online game, Goes online. Just so happens to be accessible to all, funnily enough - primary audience would be germans - get it now?
The point of this thread seems to have been lost...we were talking about a rollback possibility, and the strategy KK took to leaving the server up.

None of my posts in this thread were intended to personally attack any of the KK staff. I did however, raise a fair question about their operational policies. All I'd like to see out of this is some fairness, better communication, and an earnest effort to fix the problem without a rollback. I do believe that Nid and CoDi have provided some of that, to their credit.

What rollback? I don't see Lost characters - Just a failure to stream info properly -Leading to - OHMYGOSH - Login - Looks default to me - all shadows, all Private eye class, but your profession is noted.

Models - Load up funny - But no random spawns. No loss of inventory that a relog doesn't cure. Characters go back to normal after a zone or two - which says to me "hey while your loading the zone - have th rest of your character data too!"

All these issues are most likely down to the low capacity at which the server is running at.

Cheers,
Jake Cutter

Cheers

Teh Sperm.

Engelke

30-12-04, 18:41

I noticed something a bit more frightning tbh.

I rerolled 1 of my char and now when i get to logon screen still all my old char are only shadows, only the new one is displayed correct 8| . When i log in i even log in correct with hair and all the outfit i choose. So why are there only problems with old char from before server failure and not on new char?

Tbh i smell a database error and i even smell a rollback but i sure don't hope so. I really did put some time in the new char.

trigger hurt

30-12-04, 18:55

Cheers

Teh Sperm.

IF you've missed it, there are several people who are missing items, inventories, apartments ingame. Data is missing. Not just some hair and clothing color or shit popping up on peoples heads.

By the way, the excuse that it's just the server not running at 100% doesn't work now as they have restored the other resources and the issues still exist.

40$Poser

30-12-04, 19:00

[ edited ]

And I think that's a typical ignorant stereotype that often gets labeled when someone has nothing to really say.

Morganth

30-12-04, 19:13

this idea that certin IPs are getting blocked is silly... IPs aren't regionaly identified :wtf:. that would mean that KK pays someone to do a backtrace of each IP to find out who their ISP is and where they come from... and block them out one by oneby hand. thats just as likely as a big gooey green boat to hit me on the 17th floor of my building while I'm taking a smoke on the balcony... who comes up with this bs anyway?

It is possible to block IPs that are registered in a certain country. All KK have to do is find out from a WHOIS database what current ranges of IP are registered to be inside the US and block them on their main router. I know an MMORPG that blocked people inside Europe from playing their game (located and based in Korea) as they were going to release it in Europe at a later date, therefore they didn't want people getting a sneek peak.

WoW blocks non-American IPs from accessing the servers (as far as I know), and the only way to connect to them is to go through a proxy server or fake your IP address (which isn't always great as they can trace your MAC address back to your real IP).

So perhaps next time you are taking a smoke on the balcony of the 17th floor, you should look out for a big gooey green boat to hit you.

EDIT:

The game appears to be marketed internationally. If KK didn't want Americans playing the game, they would not have set up a mechanism to take our money.

If KK didn't want Americans playing the game (although why they wouldn't I don't know, its one hell of a marketing opportunity) they would block all IPs inside the USA. It's easy, it's simple, it's fast. It's Elephant.co.uk :lol:

Spermy

30-12-04, 19:27

IF you've missed it, there are several people who are missing items, inventories, apartments ingame. Data is missing. Not just some hair and clothing color or shit popping up on peoples heads.

By the way, the excuse that it's just the server not running at 100% doesn't work now as they have restored the other resources and the issues still exist.

Did you read the part where I stated it was nothing a relog wouldn't sort - That bug has always been in - granted it shouldn't be, but I have yet to see someone screaming about losing thier DS or whatever, infact - if you can find me a quote pertaining to this whole mess, where someone has permantly lost something, I'll retract that part of my statement.

By the way, the excuse that it's just the server not running at 100% doesn't work now as they have restored the other resources and the issues still exist.

Meh - Say what you like m8, till I see it for myself - I'm maintaining my stance.

Cubico

30-12-04, 19:39

IF you've missed it, there are several people who are missing items, inventories, apartments ingame. Data is missing. Not just some hair and clothing color or shit popping up on peoples heads.

By the way, the excuse that it's just the server not running at 100% doesn't work now as they have restored the other resources and the issues still exist.

Of course it is.
The db is still mysql, right? I assume some internal table row pointers are corrupted or something similar.
I dont think that this can be fixed without using an old image. The damage is irreversible.

Someone else said "I'd just say sh*t happens no matter how much effort you put in to make everything work."

Well, that might be the case with mysql.
There are other databases like oracle or db2 which offer better tools, they write a transaction log file for partial rollbacks etc.
Some companies existence depend on their data, think of insurance companies.
These companies have decent RAID strategies. Even if the computer room gets destroyed the same data still exist on other computers on another continent.

Spermy

30-12-04, 19:43

Of course it is.
The db is still mysql, right? I assume some internal table row pointers are corrupted or something similar.
I dont think that this can be fixed without using an old image. The damage is irreversible.

Someone else said "I'd just say sh*t happens no matter how much effort you put in to make everything work."

Well, that might be the case with mysql.
There are other databases like oracle or db2 which offer better tools, they write a transaction log file for partial rollbacks etc.
Some companies existence depend on their data, think of insurance companies.
These companies have decent RAID strategies. Even if the computer room gets destroyed the same data still exist on other computers on another continent.

RAID strats cost money - I don't know if they still MYsql or not, but I have a feeling they don't. Not 100%

remember - they're still pretty damn small in the scale of things, and a lot ideas people come up with are a little out of reach still! :lol:

retr0n

30-12-04, 19:57

RAID strats cost money - I don't know if they still MYsql or not, but I have a feeling they don't. Not 100%

remember - they're still pretty damn small in the scale of things, and a lot ideas people come up with are a little out of reach still! :lol:

I was under the impression that NC1 was MSSQL and that they switched over
to MySQL for nc2...

@Cubico: They could do a data dump, restore the relations etc and then import
the data back into the "new" database. That is if no "critical" tables have been
corrupted such as items etc..

I'm far from an expert in mysql but i've done that shit once on a very small,
compared to neocron, database.

trigger hurt

30-12-04, 20:25

RAID strats cost money - I don't know if they still MYsql or not, but I have a feeling they don't. Not 100%

remember - they're still pretty damn small in the scale of things, and a lot ideas people come up with are a little out of reach still! :lol:

Then they need to spend the fuckin money. We've paid em enough. Stop buying new watches and new cars and throwing the money around and spend it on shit to make the game last longer than a year.

Nidhogg

30-12-04, 20:47

Then they need to spend the fuckin money. We've paid em enough. Stop buying new watches and new cars and throwing the money around and spend it on shit to make the game last longer than a year.
That's very easy to say, but when you actually look at the figures, an Oracle license for the 4 Neocron clusters costs over US$2 million, and that's assuming the servers are single processer/single core. SQL Server comes in cheaper at around a million. If Reakktor had two million dollars to invest, don't you think they could put that money to better use elsewhere than simply swapping one database out for another? And what would be the gain? Redo logs don't give you a miraculous way to undo database corruption - you have to wind back every transaction database-wide or you will end up with inconsistencies (which is just corruption again) - a rollback by any other name would smell as bad. BTW, RAID configuration (in one form or another) is standard practice in server farms and even that will only ensure that you have a corrupted database held on a more reliable storage mechanism. ;)

Also, don't confuse MJS's personal wealth with Reakktor's. Reakktor was started as a result of MJS's money, not the other way around, and MJS is no longer the CEO of Reakktor.

N

eprodigy

30-12-04, 20:51

They'd be stupid not to want and appreciate any business from Americans, theres quite a few of us playing the game - and KK can use as many customers as they can get. Even the German community isn't very big. Just because someone isn't your main "target" audience you can't just write them off.

I rerolled 1 of my char and now when i get to logon screen still all my old char are only shadows, only the new one is displayed correct 8| . When i log in i even log in correct with hair and all the outfit i choose. So why are there only problems with old char from before server failure and not on new char?

He's right, tell me that isn't a database problem. If this was because of limited resources then the characters should be back shouldn't they? They restored the rest of the servers according to the announcement. It sure seems like a database problem now. The character database was corrupted somehow I am guessing earlier and that explains why new characters wouldn't be affected. The only thing I want to know, is why they are waiting so long to do the inevitable rollback - if they know it needs one, they are just making things worse as the longer they wait the longer the rollback....

Freaky Fryd

30-12-04, 21:01

The character that I was on when the problems started, is fine on the login
screen (well, his whole body shows up covering up the information on the character and where's he's located, but I've considered that bug "normal" now... :p), but the other 3 in the account are all shadows...

retr0n

30-12-04, 21:09

The only thing I want to know, is why they are waiting so long to do the inevitable rollback - if they know it needs one, they are just making things worse as the longer they wait the longer the rollback....

I believe they said a rollback will be done only as a last resort, so i guess they
are checking out the other options/fixes and if they work... The chances of a
rollback comming seem pretty big to me, although, you never know.

Darak

30-12-04, 22:30

I wish they would just resolve it ie roll it back and be damned (So i could start playing again). While i have no characters, just shadows on login (just like it was last time it rolled back) i have no confidence its not coming again.

hegemonic

31-12-04, 01:11

jini

31-12-04, 08:20

The hit from yet another rollback, would be devastating this time. I dunno this is just my feeling. If this is what about to happen, find a way to compensate for all this HUGE loss of time. This is the 3rd xmas I'm experiencing in NC. This has never happened before. So find a way to compensate people. Just a "sorry we must Rollback" is not enough anymore I would say

f33StNeu$

31-12-04, 10:04

Personaly i would rather play with a bald character then to have the server rolled back (7days by now).

So far i haven't encountered anybody with lost items etc in person. If they really are numerous there's no other way then a rollback but is it really that bad to play with a bald char?

hegemonic

31-12-04, 11:41

Dr Strange

31-12-04, 12:31

athon

31-12-04, 13:00

I'm guessing the answer will be no since we can technically play BUT; if there is a rollback, say to the point of before it started (7 days give or take) will we be credited 7 days of free play time? If not that is 7 days of WASTED time since it'll be rolled back to fix. Seems only fair if we lose 7 days of items, cash and experience we should have some reimbursement.
You poor, poor souls. At the end of the day items cash and experiance mean nothing. The only thing that means anything in this game is having fun playing it, and that is not lost in a rollback. If you think otherwise then I suggest you take a break and return to the real world for a while.

Athon Solo

jini

31-12-04, 13:18

You poor, poor souls. At the end of the day items cash and experiance mean nothing. The only thing that means anything in this game is having fun playing it, and that is not lost in a rollback. If you think otherwise then I suggest you take a break and return to the real world for a while.

Athon Solo
Ok then it's a deal.
Lets all compensate, and those who try to play it smart like you, stay behind. I really want to see how you will react then. I'm pretty sure you will be the first one that cries "my free gifts whiiiiiine"

kthx

Spermy

31-12-04, 14:04

Ok then it's a deal.
Lets all compensate, and those who try to play it smart like you, stay behind. I really want to see how you will react then. I'm pretty sure you will be the first one that cries "my free gifts whiiiiiine"

kthx

But it's true - anyone who attaches some kind of real value to these items is kinda sad, Not people who get annoyed because they lose chips and whatnot, but as we have seen there are some people who take a bunch of ones and zeros in another country a little too seriously.

If it was ones and zeros on an insurance database, then yeah - I could really see thier point, but fo people to get pissed off about this is kind of lame. I've played everyday throughout this naffy crappy server ballsup, I earned a shedload of levels ( Woot!) and got myself some cool implants and finally got my spy into PA - I lommed My hybrid to PPU...

Will I be annoyed at losing that? Yes, will I have a tantrum, No. Because it means sod all. attaching any real value to these things, other than sentiment is setting yourself up for a fall.

Jesterthegreat

31-12-04, 14:52

But it's true - anyone who attaches some kind of real value to these items is kinda sad, Not people who get annoyed because they lose chips and whatnot, but as we have seen there are some people who take a bunch of ones and zeros in another country a little too seriously.

If it was ones and zeros on an insurance database, then yeah - I could really see thier point, but fo people to get pissed off about this is kind of lame. I've played everyday throughout this naffy crappy server ballsup, I earned a shedload of levels ( Woot!) and got myself some cool implants and finally got my spy into PA - I lommed My hybrid to PPU...

Will I be annoyed at losing that? Yes, will I have a tantrum, No. Because it means sod all. attaching any real value to these things, other than sentiment is setting yourself up for a fall.

will i be annoyed at item loss? no

will i be annoyed with the hours of bordom spent lomming / getting from -99 BT symp to BT... yes.

its the difference between having fun and doing the same timesink multiple times. if i spent the week PvPing then a rollback would mean nothing. if you spend a week working towards the fun (not having it) then its a different issue.

Spermy

31-12-04, 16:10

will i be annoyed at item loss? no

will i be annoyed with the hours of bordom spent lomming / getting from -99 BT symp to BT... yes.

its the difference between having fun and doing the same timesink multiple times. if i spent the week PvPing then a rollback would mean nothing. if you spend a week working towards the fun (not having it) then its a different issue.

*Points to ekuna's Lomfest this week*

Same Boat - Thinking about it - I would find this the most irksome, seeing as I could use the character while doing it, everything else I did - I was able to use my char while doing it, and get enjoyment out of it.

except the loms.

Those goddamned bastard loms.

IceStorm

31-12-04, 16:23

Hey Ice, at this point I think you're just trying to be a jerk.I'm trying to explain to the unwashed masses that because you can play the game from the USA it doesn't entitle people to bitch about support by comparing it to other MMOs or services which are based in/supported from the USA.
The game appears to be marketed internationally.If, by putting up a website, you mean marketed, then yes. There is no distribution partner in the USA for Neocron. There is no USA advertising that I'm aware of.
If KK didn't want Americans playing the game, they would not have set up a mechanism to take our money.C2P accepts USA funding on its own. KK has nothing to do with that other than choosing to accept funds from the USA (assuming they had a choice).
if that's so, then if an american firm opened their office in another country, their products would be an import for you in america ?That's something for the government to decide. The item's origin and its target market do not always coincide. My use of the term "import" was meant to connote an item which is targetted to one market but sold to another, akin to importing a Japanese PS2. KK has very little USA support, and even that's technically "english" support, not USA-centric. There's no marketing in the USA and no USA servers.
IPs aren't regionaly identified .You don't know much about how routing works, do you?
that would mean that KK pays someone to do a backtrace of each IP to find out who their ISP is and where they come from...Or just look up all the IP blocks allocated to ARIN along with several key /8 blocks...
If KK are simply upholding german "customs" then remind be to avoid purchasing anything next time I'm in Germany.Europe is changing, but for now it's still not the norm for companies to be open late during the day, on weekends, and on holidays. Add to that KK's a small company, and it's quite understandable to see that it's taking a while to fix Terra. This is beginning to look like a much more fundamental problem with the database than a simple rollback can fix.
Just because someone isn't your main "target" audience you can't just write them off.But that doesn't mean working through holidays. If I was them, I'd want a USA playerbase that "gets" it.

By the way, those of us that "get" it stopped playing on the 23rd and aren't logging in again until Terra gets a clean bill of health.

Spermy

31-12-04, 16:30

Well.

Bo shank to Icestorm. :lol:

Brutalised.

IceStorm

31-12-04, 16:34

The only thing that means anything in this game is having fun playing it, and that is not lost in a rollback. Dude, if the items/persistence didn't matter, we would play FPSes, not MMORPGs. Yes playing without worrying too much about rollback is a good thing, but at this point epics, rarehunting, Faction Sympathy, Soul Light, trading - it's all up in the air. When you remove all that, you have left a psuedo-FPS combat system. You can get real FPS combat from any one of a number of pay-once or free games, replete with their own communities and voice chat.

Spermy

31-12-04, 16:40

Dude, if the items/persistence didn't matter, we would play FPSes, not MMORPGs. Yes playing without worrying too much about rollback is a good thing, but at this point epics, rarehunting, Faction Sympathy, Soul Light, trading - it's all up in the air. When you remove all that, you have left a psuedo-FPS combat system. You can get real FPS combat from any one of a number of pay-once or free games, replete with their own communities and voice chat.

As we have seen - It's all about how people view it really, some people are worried that they will lose stuff, and don't log on, it seems to me that hoarding takes precedence over good, wholesome(? O_o ) fun to those people.

And then, there are the other people who are just in there for a bit of fun, and aren't too bothered about having to do the whole epic thingy etc again.

And then there's me, who doesn't give a toss either way, as I'm about to lose half my inventory in my quickbelt, when I die repeatedly at MB. :lol:

eprodigy

31-12-04, 20:53

Add to that KK's a small company, and it's quite understandable to see that it's taking a while to fix Terra.

It seems pretty clear to me they haven't even done anything yet, despite a few moderators rambling on. I bet nothing at all will happen til mid January and then they'll just rollback to the 23rd. Probably not even changing a single thing in the database so the problem can return 2 months later. If they've been working day and night then I take this back but I truly don't believe that and don't trust KK anymore even the slightest. I wouldn't let them shine my shoes.

By the way, those of us that "get" it stopped playing on the 23rd and aren't logging in again until Terra gets a clean bill of health.
I guess I "get" it then because I haven't logged in since then. However I still seem to have paid for the entire month. I'd love to see this happen on Mars or Mercury and not see what the German community has to say about it.

Seven

01-01-05, 14:33

Happy New Year all!

Can we please get an official word about the Terra situation that isn't 3 days old?

Would like to play, but would also like to know if it's going to be saved.

Thanks.

Nidhogg

01-01-05, 14:53

As soon as there's more information, I'll be sure to post it ASAP. Thread merged.

N

Gydjia

02-01-05, 00:14

The nid, as always, is correct. Redo logs aren't the answer (never are tbh, unless you've split activities nicely with log filtering which is still too bloody hard to make it actually worthwhile). But you could selectively replicate (Advanced Replication) certain tables and distribute them elsewhere. And you're a bit wayoff with the Oracle pricing method, it's changed a fair deal, and there are ways to phreak it a bit. Plus they're a bit like IBM were in the old days, give them a call and play nice and they will cut you a 'special' deal as long as you don't talk about it.

[Edit] I mean, why would you have to install it across every single box anyway ? I know, a cluster is a cluster, but even so. That processor/pricing thing of theres is a bit of nonsense, seriously, they know it and are open to suggestion. Also a 'development license' is free (I think still), and all their engines and tools are free to D/load. I dunno if they actually have a MMORPG game installation or similar running at the mo. My experience with them has been Data Warehousing for banks, brokerages and the MoD.

Nidhogg

02-01-05, 00:40

The 2 mill was based on their standard pricing which was calculated using their on-line purchasing system (I tried it myself before I posted). Oracle did quote us a special deal but it was still in 7 figures. The problem is that if we go for a user-based license we have to pay for every subscription (which is far, far higher than what is usually seen concurrently connected) and if we pay for a server-based license we're still in trouble. People talk about "servers" (such as Terra, Mars etc.) but each one is a cluster of around eleven servers and Oracle charge per CPU (or per core if they're multi-core processors). ;) Their license terms clearly state that if the database application spans multiple machines then all participating machines need to be included in the license.

I suspect this is something that is constantly kept under review though.

N

40$Poser

02-01-05, 02:40

it's good to see there is real info and stats being shown, very professional I must say

now, as to the concern for the self proclaimed 'Terra Error' it has been how long now since this problem has begun sirs? (Sorry, too busy playing World of Warcraft to log in and attempt to even find a decent clan to join)

I'd enjoy to hear that things have been fixed, but as for now I'll keep my distance from logging into neocron until things are good on Terra.

eprodigy

02-01-05, 10:09

I believe it was the 23rd, after the login server went down and they brought it back online the problems starting cropping up with characters (wrong clothing, missing hair, some people with funny hats, images on login just shadows, all the symtoms of the last rollback pretty much).

Theres been a few "updates", but nothing that tells us anything about the problem except some excuses about low resources ...

am just slightly mad because got work on monday and didnt even get to touch neocron on my week off :rolleyes:

Original monk

02-01-05, 14:32

i hope there wont be anything or i can start all over again setting up my chars, if its from the 23th then it would be crazy to start rolling back btw :)

Selendor

02-01-05, 14:37

I remember a lot of the problems on Saturn ("mission complete", forum bugs) were never fixed for whatever reason, so I suppose its possible they could leave these issues alone instead of rolling back 2 weeks. Either way, I guess we need to consider that its the holiday period and hope they will get more active in the coming weeks.

Whether KK are just unlucky with the timing or someone screwed up somewhere after the office party I don't know, but a lot of people (me included) had time off this xmas that they wanted to play but are not going to until someone can say if our work is for nothing. I mean, we're often stupid, but not THAT stupid :(

Brammers

02-01-05, 14:46

Ok so everyone effected is a private eye class, and bald. Couple of SQL update statements can fix all those problems, although I would like my old...wig back.

So whats caused the corruption? Sounds like someone didn't do a clean shut down of the the database engine properly,

Zaq

02-01-05, 19:56