View Full Version : Leave the devs/mods alone...
I've not been part of the community long but all I see is users complaining and cursing the name of KK.. I don't know how things were here pre-nc2 but KK are really trying to make an effort from what I see. Admittidly they really do need to keep us/their community informed of developments made to the game, but.. when I see so many "leaving threads" and such, made with one true intention, that is to hurt KK's reputation, it's just plain sad.
As a new user I was completely unbiased towards the dev's but due to general bad mouthing of KK in-game and on forums it corrupted me for a short while, I didn't actually do anything to cause offence to any of the GM's this was entirely within my head as a general disliking towards a dev team which have done nothing wrong directly towards me.
I realise this is a buggy game.. yay I'm not an idiot, I realised this during beta, yet I happily paid my cash to KK due to it being such an enjoyable game.. and so did most of you (seemingly).
Final though, just leave KK alone for a while, I can't blame them for not keeping the community as informed as you wish them to, due to them going on the forums not being a pleasent experience (try and think of it from their perspection). It's not fair.
AlphaGremlin
14-12-04, 17:57
Can't say much more than to agree whole-heartedly, and I know I'll be in the minority. I've had only one real rant against things here, and I said all I wanted to. And I will say that they still, and always have had, my support. What point is there to not support them, really?
AlphaGremlin
nobody2004
14-12-04, 18:04
Your thread starts from a good intention, giving the devs/mods a "break".
But don't turn the problem around, and make us, the community, THE problem.
It's allready enough KK considers it this way.
No need for the community to turn against itself, is if we were the cause for KK's recurent problems.
If people are living, it's not to harm KK.
It's because they're deceived, for what ever good or bad reason.
And it's not because the community sometime is harsh, that KK doesn't communicate.
It's because KK doesn't communicate, that the community sometime becomes harsh.
Look at the theme weeks.
Their main intent was to "improve the communication beetween KK and it's community". What happened ?
We don't even know if we're still in drones week (latest corrections have not yet been applied), if we still are in "Asian server setup" week, if we're in HN week (no news since over 2 weeks).
From the latest news we could gather here and there, we very likely are in a "we do what we can to solve some important problems (exploits, ...)" week.
Maybe theme weeks will restart Thursday.
We'll just have to wait and see, that's the way communication works with KK.
Thursday evening we'll know IF something hapened, and if so, what.
So I agree to give devs/mods a "break", mainly because it won't help to ask for anything presently.
But give us a break as well, and stop pointing at the community as the source of the problem.
Romans used to kill messengers with bad news.
But that didn't change the very nature of the news itself.
I've not been part of the community long but all I see is users complaining and cursing the name of KK..
Yeap, you weren't here, you don't know, nuff said. New users can fight the good fight, like we once did, but after taking it up the ass for two years and more, you just have to realise that stuff isn't positive.
And not everyone paid cash to KK because this is an enjoyable game. Most of us paid cash to KK because we were hoping they'd fulfill their promises.
Safe to say, there's 50 bucks I'll never see again.
And not everyone paid cash to KK because this is an enjoyable game. Most of us paid cash to KK because we were hoping they'd fulfill their promises.
After being here and 'taking it up the ass' for so long, you expected KK to keep their promises? And if you didn't enjoy the game, why did you stay? Oh well.
Safe to say, there's 50 bucks I'll never see again.
Unlucky. There was an open beta, you know.
In response to the first post - KK are slagged off so much because it's been a pretty similar situation throughout NC1 retail to now.
Ive been part of this community for nearly 2 years now and tbh the community has the right to be able to give KK a hard time, promise after promise after promise has been broken.
KK ignore what the community think are the major faults with the game which is why the community is slowly dwindling to nothing.
If KK had listened to the majority of the community and fixed sync bugs FREs and all the various log in bugs then the community would still be a lot larger then it is now.
If KK had listened to the community saying that ppus overpower all classes and had adjusted ppus so that they werent as overpowering or had even tested various ideas that were thrown around to adjust ppus on the test server which many people wanted and had volunteered to help with then more people would be still here.
If KK acknowledged that known bugs happen and didnt give a blanket support policy of you cant prove you had this item and even if you did you cant prove that you didnt give it to a friend of yours which left dozens if not more with several months of epics, rares and good built items lost to backpack bugs and hacked accounts.
All in all KK while producing a game with great potential have failed to realise its potential by not having its priorities straight, yes most FREs have been eliminated buts thats probably the only serious NC 1 beta bug yet to be eliminated and has been replaced by the synchronising for 20 seconds every time you zone irritant.
Because of this the community that have kept paying the wages of the KK employees for the last 2 years have a right to be able to critisise them on the forums.
KK ignore what the community think are the major faults with the game which is why the community is slowly dwindling to nothing.KK tries to take the community's opinion into account to a great extend ..as far as I can tell. There are MANY examples of things that have been requested/suggested by the community and then made it into the game (just recently: drone-hud). At times I even felt, KK listened to much to the loud-mouth's on the forums ...thus re-ballancing, nerfing, doing A, going back to B ..etc ..which made everything a little worse than how it was before, in the end.
If KK had listened to the majority of the community and fixed sync bugs FREs and all the various log in bugs then the community would still be a lot larger then it is now.Do you really think KK doesnt know how severe the problem of fatals/syncs is to the players? Do you think they, being a company that has to earn money somehow, wouldn't care about users being scared away of it? As far as I know, by following official statements on this forum, the problem is not that easy to fix. It is hard to find out what exactly leads to a fatal ..and tbh.. the "fatal" is not one problem, in fact there are hundrets of processes that can lead to an fatal in a certain, hard to reproduce, combination. They need to put a lot of effort on resolving this issue, I agree 100% ...but claiming they, KK, would ignore the problem..not bothering to much.. thats just way out.
If KK had listened to the community saying that ppus overpower all classes and had adjusted ppus so that they werent as overpowering or had even tested various ideas that were thrown around to adjust ppus on the test server which many people wanted and had volunteered to help with then more people would be still here.
Again, if KK hadn't listened to the Com in the first place.. the PPU as we know it wouldnt even exist. Yet again... its true they need to adress this issue, but balancing is a tough job and you dont want to do it sloppy...if you do, you solve 1 problem and create 10 new.
If KK acknowledged that known bugs happen and didnt give a blanket support policy of you cant prove you had this item and even if you did you cant prove that you didnt give it to a friend of yours which left dozens if not more with several months of epics, rares and good built items lost to backpack bugs and hacked accounts.
True to some extend... there is NO excuse for the missing item-tracking, from a player-side view. Personally, I would have prefered to have nc2 released when its ready .. and not hurried as it has been... and I do feel a little sad that KK was not able to do more in the time that passed..but yet, I cant understand why this leads to the conclusion, that KK enjoys to fuck their community, customers... their major cashflow.
...and since you've been playing for 2 years as you've stated... you should know better. Support-Policies weren't always this tight ...but a few [insertabunchofinsultshere] were smart enough to trick the support, to abuse the help, to exploit everything they could... so again, the community suffers, because parts of the community caused them to.
Because of this the community that have kept paying the wages of the KK employees for the last 2 years have a right to be able to critisise them on the forums.
...this again, is another phenomenon that makes me wonder. True, NC is a PvP oriented game ..but ppl carrying that principle to the official boards turning it into Players-VS-KK. I understand some ppl do not only like, but love the game and at times its sickening to see it in a state that lays below its potential... BUT ...does screaming, yelling and fucking over those, who try their best to make the game worth playing to the greatest extend possible .. does that really increase their, KK's productivity & enthusiasm concerning this project? Arent we acctually on the same ship and should try to help, make the game better, as KK themselves seem unable to do it at the pace we'd like to see? A few people do share this attitude and commit themselves to helping where its possible.. and those ppl are the only ones that are allowed to rant against KK imho.
My personal opinion to those who are unhappy with the current situation:
a) try to make the situation a better one by personal commitment .. there's plenty to do, so I am sure everyone would be able to do his/her bit. 2000 brains working in a CONSTRUCTIVE way _do_ have influence! ..in this case, feel free to discuss the issues that you want to see improved!
b) play the game as-is and make sure your enjoyment outscales the disappointment.. feel free, to drop into catagory a) at times and provide constructive criticism. Dont just sit there and gather all the things that piss you off, cause eventually they will even more !
c) find the game not worth playing personally, cancel your account and leave, If you enjoy flamewars, you might find a lot of other playgrounds on the www
KK tries to take the community's opinion into account to a great extend ..as far as I can tell. There are MANY examples of things that have been requested/suggested by the community and then made it into the game (just recently: drone-hud). At times I even felt, KK listened to much to the loud-mouth's on the forums ...thus re-ballancing, nerfing, doing A, going back to B ..etc ..which made everything a little worse than how it was before, in the end.
Yes there is a lot of "hey I suck at playing this char so its obviously nerfed so I will spam the forums until its overpowered" shite, most recently with melee tanks, I personally said that the damage shouldnt be boosted but that it should have 3 damage types at the same overall damage as before camp, which a good few old melee tanks were in and since most people who said this had played melee tanks since they began NC they should of been the ones listened to not the people who power levelled a HC tank and lommed and didnt know how to play the class and cried on the forums, KK listened to the wrong part of the community then.
Do you really think KK doesnt know how severe the problem of fatals/syncs is to the players? Do you think they, being a company that has to earn money somehow, wouldn't care about users being scared away of it? As far as I know, by following official statements on this forum, the problem is not that easy to fix. It is hard to find out what exactly leads to a fatal ..and tbh.. the "fatal" is not one problem, in fact there are hundrets of processes that can lead to an fatal in a certain, hard to reproduce, combination. They need to put a lot of effort on resolving this issue, I agree 100% ...but claiming they, KK, would ignore the problem..not bothering to much.. thats just way out.
TBH I would rather if KK stopped all other work on NC bug solving these problems they have been game ruiners since day 1 and are still a pain in the arse, KK should never have released NC 1 let alone NC 2 to retail with these critical bugs in them, the fact that KKs prioritises seem to be on issues that arent as critical to the gameplay as these is a major source of frustration to me.
Again, if KK hadn't listened to the Com in the first place.. the PPU as we know it wouldnt even exist. Yet again... its true they need to adress this issue, but balancing is a tough job and you dont want to do it sloppy...if you do, you solve 1 problem and create 10 new.
Hybrids or apu/ppu combos, its still all monkocron to me, KK overpowered the class even in its attempt to balance it. I know no game will ever be balanced but monks have been majorly overpwoered since retail with no end of this in sight, I along with other people have pushed for shelter/deflector to be made self cast only on the test server in an attempt to test whether this would balance both monks and PEs but KK have continuely ignored this request and even failed to respond to any of the threads even with a simple No.
True to some extend... there is NO excuse for the missing item-tracking, from a player-side view. Personally, I would have prefered to have nc2 released when its ready .. and not hurried as it has been... and I do feel a little sad that KK was not able to do more in the time that passed..but yet, I cant understand why this leads to the conclusion, that KK enjoys to fuck their community, customers... their major cashflow.
...and since you've been playing for 2 years as you've stated... you should know better. Support-Policies weren't always this tight ...but a few [insertabunchofinsultshere] were smart enough to trick the support, to abuse the help, to exploit everything they could... so again, the community suffers, because parts of the community caused them to.
Kk never returned stuff other then in a case of hacks which then got exploited except for the odd time, I got the backpack bug doing the TT epic back just after the epic patch came out and I got nothing but 300k until and I cancelled my account which then got me my epic chips back and I then reactivated as I understood that KK couldnt tell if I had a DG and pob on me at the time.
...this again, is another phenomenon that makes me wonder. True, NC is a PvP oriented game ..but ppl carrying that principle to the official boards turning it into Players-VS-KK. I understand some ppl do not only like, but love the game and at times its sickening to see it in a state that lays below its potential... BUT ...does screaming, yelling and fucking over those, who try their best to make the game worth playing to the greatest extend possible .. does that really increase their, KK's productivity & enthusiasm concerning this project? Arent we acctually on the same ship and should try to help, make the game better, as KK themselves seem unable to do it at the pace we'd like to see? A few people do share this attitude and commit themselves to helping where its possible.. and those ppl are the only ones that are allowed to rant against KK imho.
Yes the community should work with KK but KK should work with the community, there were calls before DoY beta for a community council from all 3 communities to have regular meetings with KK to discuss problems with game mechanics and balancing aswell as content with the council being chosen by mods and GMs as those who post most productively and test the most on the test server but again it was ignored and Ratman was appointed community rep, how KK expect the views of all the NC community to be voiced by one person I dont know.
virgil caine
14-12-04, 22:01
Well. TBH, I Keep up with this forum about as much as anyone else and people keep refering to all these people that have left due to KK's misbehavior. I wonder just how many have left due to the usually bitched about things that there is no reason to rehash and just how many would have left because of other influences such as changes in their life like graduation or new jobs or just plain having played too long and needing other challanges. They may have even had to stop playing because mom and dad happened to notice how pale little Johnny had become and that he was out of breath just running to the frig for a soda due to endless hours of play, day in day out with no other exercise; playing a game that does nothing but make them mad.
Any game like this, by its very nature, is going to have turnover in the customer base. I would like to see the 6 month retention rate for any of these other games that are being held up as examples of games that the developers should aspire to make this game be.
Listen to your own posts, this is a game, no more no less. Your behavior in this forum has become a looping vicious circle, feeding on itself. Why not join the growing number of players that have accepted that this game while it has flaws is the best thing out there and that the developers are slowly but surely working to improve it. It can only get better and I'm going to stick around and enjoy it until I don't want to play it anymore, why don't you join me and do the same
Please don't see this as a flame, its not meant that way. Just tired of seeing every thread turned into a bitchfest. Perhaps the mods should create another section so you guys can all bitch to a crowd that appreciates the subtle nuance that you add to the same thing you already said more than once.
Yes there is a lot of "hey I suck at playing this char so its obviously nerfed so I will spam the forums until its overpowered" shite, most recently with melee tanks, I personally said that the damage shouldnt be boosted but that it should have 3 damage types at the same overall damage as before camp, which a good few old melee tanks were in and since most people who said this had played melee tanks since they began NC they should of been the ones listened to not the people who power levelled a HC tank and lommed and didnt know how to play the class and cried on the forums, KK listened to the wrong part of the community then.
Melee was underpowered, and is not overpowered currently compared to other weapons in PvP bearing in mind the fact theres an issue with multi-locational damage weapons vs fixed location weapons. Remove the Random dmg effect on Melee and you'd see a constant number through the targets life, where as the multi-locational weapons lose effectiveness the more damaged the player is. If you want a really good example of that issue, take a Silent Hunter and hit a non-resisted player in the head and you should do about 160 dmg. Any shot after that will drop in damage.
Renerfing a weapon due to an issue with other types weapons is counter productive and would require them to be unnerfed yet again when the other issues are fixed. However if there was a large enough call for them to be renerfed due to issues where they are massively overpowered like the old hybrid days then fine, but bear in mind doing that takes time away from working on the issues surrounding the other weapons.
In some cases the seemingly problem item is not actually the problem, but is only a problem due to something else not working as it should.
Althought this is getting majorly off topic the problem with melee being that lag between server and client make damage not count doesnt apply so much in most opwars and raids and only really applies and chasing a routed enemy or a solo pker in which case raising damage to compensate doesnt matter as damage doesnt count, in any enclosed fighting area which most fighting happens melee is overpowered but in open fighting its under powered, in reality melee is a bugged class and always will be.
Im not saying to perpetuate the cycle of nerf, overpower, nerf, overpower and I know balance is impossible in any game but boosts and reductions in power should be in baby steps not in leaps.
melee only seems to be over powered due to the game mechanics (cant think of a better word for it) and para, simple way to beat melee, run away and shoot while you do it :p
QuantumDelta
14-12-04, 22:52
That's the main publicised one, and the easiest one for a player to see having an effect, but Lupus is also correct and this was one of the reasons the BlackSun and other Raygun weapons were actually uhhhh viable at one point.
Let Lupus work on his balance changes.
He's one of the few people around here I actually trust to do crap right.
Basically because he DOES view the _WHOLE_ Picture and will look at more than one variable at a time, allowing him to see how things are in game, even if he can't be there at the time;
Though last I checked he is getting time ingame too....(though that was a lil while ago :p)
Erm.
Unfortunately, whilst I trust Lupus, to do his bit, I am very unwilling to trust that what Lupus needs done to actually truly fix what's wrong will be done.
Simply because of what I know from experience.
Thread starter:
I've been in your position.
I've made very similar posts.
I am not normally one to reference my post count but:
Consider the time I have spent here, in all maner of positions in this community and outside.
The company that show so much promise have a great deal of trouble with delivery.
If they delivered what they promised, they'd be the worlds best MMO Publishers, IMO.
And would be working on an absolutely amazing game by now.
But, they don't.
Hense the attacks.
Hehe, even though I get angry you still make me laugh.....I counted to 20 and i'm all good now, have a nice day ;)
Just wondering lupus but were you thinking about melee's a bit too much during that post, I noticed an unbareable amount of bear references (pob?) :D
It's a bit of a sticky subject -
It doesn't matter how bad it is - bitching doesn't fix it.
Most people seem to have gotten this in thier heads - you'll find a lot of people on the forums who haven't and still whine for things to change.
By all means whine - just do it constructively.
Anyhow -
My views
KK are fixing things slowly but surely - but a lot of inherrent problems would have been solved with a later release of NC1 ( :o ) in my opinion.
Anyhow - we're getting there - but they do need to keep in touch with usand it would be extremely cool to let the community help out if possible with areas such as design or solving code problems as there are some very talented people knocking about.
Jesterthegreat
15-12-04, 14:32
I've not been part of the community long but all I see is users complaining and cursing the name of KK.. I don't know how things were here pre-nc2 but KK are really trying to make an effort from what I see. then you missed almost 2 years of broken promises[/quote] Admittidly they really do need to keep us/their community informed of developments made to the game, but.. when I see so many "leaving threads" and such, made with one true intention, that is to hurt KK's reputation, it's just plain sad.
[/quote] you realise some of those people are actually announcing to mates they are leaving? not all are just to "hurt" kk...
As a new user I was completely unbiased towards the dev's but due to general bad mouthing of KK in-game and on forums it corrupted me for a short while, I didn't actually do anything to cause offence to any of the GM's this was entirely within my head as a general disliking towards a dev team which have done nothing wrong directly towards me.
2 years of minimul support, lack of bug fixes (which has admittedly improved recently) and lack of events made us feel bitter :p
I realise this is a buggy game.. yay I'm not an idiot, I realised this during beta, yet I happily paid my cash to KK due to it being such an enjoyable game.. and so did most of you (seemingly).
there are 2 year old bugs... you expect a beta to be buggy, you shouldnt expect a retail game to be as buggy as this. new hardware, whatever... doesnt excuse the same bugs being ingame in NC1 now (on minimul server load) as they were in nc1 beta. it doesnt excuse numerous bugs going to nc2 and not being fixed.
Final though, just leave KK alone for a while, I can't blame them for not keeping the community as informed as you wish them to, due to them going on the forums not being a pleasent experience (try and think of it from their perspection). It's not fair.
you know why its not a fun experiance for them? cos people ask them questions. by then people are so pissed at the lack of answer they are less than polite...
if dev's actually spent time on here, answered questions to the best of their knowledge (adding possibly's, maybe's and dont know's) then people would at least feel informed.
we all know nc is buggy, but we are still here. i love the game, i just hate parts of the way its run. i still think nc has impressive potential, but i have no hopes of it ever reaching it now.
:edit: if i didnt have a sig... this would be it
It doesn't matter how bad it is - bitching doesn't fix it.
Most people seem to have gotten this in thier heads - you'll find a lot of people on the forums who haven't and still whine for things to change.
By all means whine - just do it constructively.
It's a slippery slope - damned if we do, damned if we don't sort of thing - and it all comes down to perception I suppose. If we come on here and say things, people take it for gospel, then if it doesn't materialize the day after we discuss it, we're "breaking promises", etc. If we don't say anything we "don't care". We do care, and we never set out to break promises. I hope you realize we aren't sitting in a dark room maniacally laughing everytime someone is upset.
Regarding communication and interaction, we have to watch what we say so we don't get spanked by the bossman - we're under NDA regarding many things. Mod's follow the rules to the letter. GM's are not supposed to interact with players on the forums unless it's a matter of assistance. Dev's keep a low profile on the forums because a. they are working a lot, and don't get a great deal of time to interact b. are scared off by growls of "kk sucks, i hatez0r you!!!!111oneoneone" c. don't want to get in trouble for saying anything
I was a player and a fan way before anything, so I can understand a lot of the frustration that people feel from time to time. I also realize we're not magical beings who can wiggle our noses and create things out of thin air :p Imagine working at a fast food restaurant, the boss has you grilling, tending register, taking orders, cleaning toilets, and hosing down the parking lot, and no one else is in the building - the lady who just slipped on the oil wants that done now, but the starving man who wants his big mac wants that done now, and the lady wants to pee and has no toilet paper wants the bathrooms taken care of now. Everyone is equally justified in wanting what they want now, but it's a physically imposibility to please everyone simultaneously and have any level of quality.
We've always been a small company, everyone knows and accepts that, we're growing by leaps and bounds, but things will always take time. We do care about our customers/fans/friends who play this game and make it a success, so much so that some of us spend many hours after we're to be finished working for the day still helping out, replying to emails, posting on the forums in an effort to try and give you the level of quality and service you deserve. I watched Iorghe stay up over 24 hours once working on coding, being kept alive on little more than caffine and pizza :p
What I'm attempting to say is, we're trying and we <3 you! Just not like that...so stop trying to grope Lupus, he's sensative 8|
if dev's actually spent time on here, answered questions to the best of their knowledge (adding possibly's, maybe's and dont know's) then people would at least feel informed.
The problem with that is getting the balance right with minimal resources. Right now devs spending too much time on the forums would make little difference to general bitterness of the community but it would take time away from the development.
I would prefer to have more resources spent fixing in game issues rather than patting the community on the head about why it has not been finished.
KK do a amazing job of delivering an actual product. I think its easy to forget how good nc is while looking at the next 'Ive copied UO badly, improved the graphics and called it X' crap that most companies shovel. Oh yeah and thats the ones that actually finish, you can not count the ones that never made it to release. My loyalty is to the quality of the game, not to any theme or company - i'm still here after more than 2 years and there seems to be no way of escaping no matter how much i try to jump to other games.
On the other hand i would be nice to stop adding stuff for a while and fix the fecking bugs so that we can get more players, rather than adding more content/features that only old players notice.
Danae a lot of what you say may be right but in general i disagree. There will alway be naysayers no matter what you do. I do believe there would be less if as some others have allready said there was more communication. This is not a big thing, i don't think anyone is expecting the devs to take time away from the game to come here and read every thread and reply to everyone. That is unrealistic for a small company. However it also does not take any great amount of time for a person to come on and read a few threads and post a little.
I know if i saw post from the devs a few times a week or even a plan file about what was worked on i would have much more faith in the direction of the game. I can write up in less than 30 mins all the computers i've worked on this week and the people i've helped with problems, i'm sure someone who is smart enough to code can do the same in less time.
Being a small company is no excuss. Small companies are capable of giving excellent communication, i know cause i've seen it in the past and today elsewhere. Really an hour or two a week spent on customer support by the dev team would go a long way and more likly be more productive.
well we all have our rants against kk,hell i have said enough in the past due to bugs where i have lost whole characters etc.....................
but i have tried other games as a lot of us have and we all tend to come back.
so what does that say about the overall quality of kk`s work???
atm i am giving endless ages a go on a 5 day trial and im already bored of it
city of heroes,the same major boredom even if the actual concept was uber
swg, full of jedi wnaabees
i think a lot of the vets just need to go play something else for a while as a break,we all get a little jaded after nearly 3 years of play.the new content is coming on slowly,we are getting there.
i think as a community though we do deserve a little bit of feedback after supporting kk with our subs( hands up who like me has multiple accounts?)
so that one day maybe just maybe we will have the best game on the net
Jesterthegreat
15-12-04, 21:37
It's a slippery slope - damned if we do, damned if we don't sort of thing - and it all comes down to perception I suppose. If we come on here and say things, people take it for gospel, then if it doesn't materialize the day after we discuss it, we're "breaking promises", etc. If we don't say anything we "don't care". We do care, and we never set out to break promises. I hope you realize we aren't sitting in a dark room maniacally laughing everytime someone is upset.
Regarding communication and interaction, we have to watch what we say so we don't get spanked by the bossman - we're under NDA regarding many things. Mod's follow the rules to the letter. GM's are not supposed to interact with players on the forums unless it's a matter of assistance. Dev's keep a low profile on the forums because a. they are working a lot, and don't get a great deal of time to interact b. are scared off by growls of "kk sucks, i hatez0r you!!!!111oneoneone" c. don't want to get in trouble for saying anything
I was a player and a fan way before anything, so I can understand a lot of the frustration that people feel from time to time. I also realize we're not magical beings who can wiggle our noses and create things out of thin air :p Imagine working at a fast food restaurant, the boss has you grilling, tending register, taking orders, cleaning toilets, and hosing down the parking lot, and no one else is in the building - the lady who just slipped on the oil wants that done now, but the starving man who wants his big mac wants that done now, and the lady wants to pee and has no toilet paper wants the bathrooms taken care of now. Everyone is equally justified in wanting what they want now, but it's a physically imposibility to please everyone simultaneously and have any level of quality.
We've always been a small company, everyone knows and accepts that, we're growing by leaps and bounds, but things will always take time. We do care about our customers/fans/friends who play this game and make it a success, so much so that some of us spend many hours after we're to be finished working for the day still helping out, replying to emails, posting on the forums in an effort to try and give you the level of quality and service you deserve. I watched Iorghe stay up over 24 hours once working on coding, being kept alive on little more than caffine and pizza :p
What I'm attempting to say is, we're trying and we <3 you! Just not like that...so stop trying to grope Lupus, he's sensative 8|
I've seen you working and know how hard you work (seen you stop playing your personal char on your day off to help people).
as for communication... nid has become an unofficial spokesman. he tries to give us what info he can, and yeah certain peole take "maybe" as a certainty... but those people are idiots.
IMO talk to us, give us rough info but tell us it's rough info. once it goes for a while peeps will get used to it, and i bet they will prefer rough info to no info.
In my experience people bitch on a forum (and I mean constantly bitch) for 2 reasons
The first is that they are new to MMORPGs and the sudden 'access' to the makers of the game gives them the feeling (hope) that their voice will make a difference - its takes some time for people to learn that it doesnt [almost] always work like this partially because what they want is probably [completely] different to what the next 10 guys want who are trying to do the same thing (and to a lesser extent some people just do 'get' what type of player some games are pitched at and are trying to actually change a games focus)
The second reason (and ironically this is a really really good thing) is that the player is really really into the game but cant stand idle while things arent going right with it - now there are elements of the first reason mixed in here too but normally a games most desparate fan (or wanna be fan) is the loudest complainer because they can see the good idea/work 'going to waste'
I suppose another factor is player age - when I played AO (my first MMORPG) I was a forum demon - bitching about this and complaining about that because I wanted the game to be perfect, once that wore off (about the same time I quit AO realising the futility of it all) the fact that I'm getting on as a game (30) and that I dont tend to have alot of time to be on the boards (varies due to workload) kicks in and you either dont have enough time to complain viciously or you just realise how pointless it is (in as much as the devs tend to know what the problems are and will fix them as they see fit - you either decide if you accept this and 'put up' with things, or not and quit
It's a slippery slope - damned if we do, damned if we don't sort of thing - and it all comes down to perception I suppose. If we come on here and say things, people take it for gospel, then if it doesn't materialize the day after we discuss it, we're "breaking promises", etc.
Danae, that depends on "how" it is said.
All we're asking, is to keep us apprised as to what's going on.
Here's a couple of examples.
Hi folks,
Our Asian effort took more resources than we anticipated so we're running a bit behind on the next patch/theme week. The patch itself is coming along pretty well and we are hoping to patch the servers Wednesday or perhaps even Thursday "IF" all goes well.
Thanks for your patience, will post an update before the weekend.
Example 2.
Hi folks,
It looks like next week for the patch at this point.
We had some problems with <insert programming jargon> and we think we have found the problem.
We'll know more next week after some internal testing.
So have a nice weekend and we'll update you sometime early next week as to what's going on.
Hopefully things will be sorted by then. :)
See? Nothing in stone, no promises, just truthful information on what is going on.
Now, isn't that better than silence which in turn leads to rumors and starts a cycle of bitching and moaning?
Will some people still bitch? Of course, they're people! :lol:
So let the few bitch if they want to be assholes, the rest of us here in the community that appreciated communication like my two examples above will take care of them for ya. ;)
I have played almost every MMO game out there while playing neocron(I know there is a diff in budgets)and have not seen problems like this game has.
There really is a serious problem, and this company needs to be doing some serious brain crunching real quick...you cant hide the fact that you have more people quitting than joining. Look at how many players quit this month alone.....even a simple content patch would keep people occupied for a bit, like when the monk PA was introduced in NC1 it kept people busy for awhile or even the dumb Kami chip mobs made people do shit.
In the past there were only a few people complaining about valid shit, not including the lame nerf threads, now almost everything is a complaint..........hmmm I wonder why?
It shouldnt be that hard, [ edited ]
Jesterthegreat
16-12-04, 14:12
Danae, that depends on "how" it is said.
All we're asking, is to keep us apprised as to what's going on.
Here's a couple of examples.
Hi folks,
Our Asian effort took more resources than we anticipated so we're running a bit behind on the next patch/theme week. The patch itself is coming along pretty well and we are hoping to patch the servers Wednesday or perhaps even Thursday "IF" all goes well.
Thanks for your patience, will post an update before the weekend.
Example 2.
Hi folks,
It looks like next week for the patch at this point.
We had some problems with <insert programming jargon> and we think we have found the problem.
We'll know more next week after some internal testing.
So have a nice weekend and we'll update you sometime early next week as to what's going on.
Hopefully things will be sorted by then. :)
See? Nothing in stone, no promises, just truthful information on what is going on.
Now, isn't that better than silence which in turn leads to rumors and starts a cycle of bitching and moaning?
Will some people still bitch? Of course, they're people! :lol:
So let the few bitch if they want to be assholes, the rest of us here in the community that appreciated communication like my two examples above will take care of them for ya. ;)
what i said but worded better :p
any info is better than no info.
Perfect!
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=120327
I hope 3 days doesnt count as bumping, but thought I'd add a little more.
Seriously stop the complaining/bitching at KK, I honestly don't care whether you feel you have the "right" to after "suffering" for so long.. read through the terms and conditions you agreed to when you signed up, I really doubt there is anything which would lead you to belive you have any right to this kind of behaviour (please if you do find something quote it in a reply here).
Do you honestly think it is helping in the slightest? you're more likely wasteing the time of the GM's who read these posts (I've noticed 2 GM's have replied/edited in this thread albeit more of a posative kind to them I hope).
I do understand you have frustrations with this game (I do too) and a lot of people find posting on forums (etc) helps this, but how about writing it up all you like and hitting preview post instead of submit reply, then read through it yourself, then close the bl**dy window cause we don't want to know!
Asurmen Spec Op
19-12-04, 07:30
Yeap, you weren't here, you don't know, nuff said. New users can fight the good fight, like we once did, but after taking it up the ass for two years and more, you just have to realise that stuff isn't positive.
And not everyone paid cash to KK because this is an enjoyable game. Most of us paid cash to KK because we were hoping they'd fulfill their promises.
Safe to say, there's 50 bucks I'll never see again.
see, If I was at KK I wouldnt even dignify people like you with a responce.
Do you think its easy to fix the memory leak?
do you think its easy to balance classes?
do you think its easy to progam a MMO?
yet all you do is whine when they dont meet deadlines they set to you.
so why are you here then huh? if kk sucks so much why are you here?
I love KK. Sure its a buggy game but maybe i understand that its not as easy to program as the counterstrike most of you know and think NC is.
QuantumDelta
19-12-04, 10:35
see, If I was at KK I wouldnt even dignify people like you with a responce.
Do you think its easy to fix the memory leak?
Depends on the leak, really doesn't it?
do you think its easy to balance classes?
Yes.
do you think its easy to progam a MMO?
Programme? Not too hard for Most MMOs, NC is slightly harder but that's only in the nature of the aiming/firing system, rather than the other systems MMOs use.
yet all you do is whine when they dont meet deadlines they set to you.
Then they should not set deadlines, they should give updates and plans, however deadlines are evil things.
so why are you here then huh? if kk sucks so much why are you here?
He just said, he was leaving.
I have a six months subsy atm, I am hanging around to see what's going to be happening down the line, but my faith is all but shattered.
KK for the most part: Great peeps.
Terrible company :p
I love KK. Sure its a buggy game but maybe i understand that its not as easy to program as the counterstrike most of you know and think NC is.
Nice assumption there.
Jesterthegreat
19-12-04, 11:17
I hope 3 days doesnt count as bumping, but thought I'd add a little more.
Seriously stop the complaining/bitching at KK, I honestly don't care whether you feel you have the "right" to after "suffering" for so long.. read through the terms and conditions you agreed to when you signed up, I really doubt there is anything which would lead you to belive you have any right to this kind of behaviour (please if you do find something quote it in a reply here).
Do you honestly think it is helping in the slightest? you're more likely wasteing the time of the GM's who read these posts (I've noticed 2 GM's have replied/edited in this thread albeit more of a posative kind to them I hope).
I do understand you have frustrations with this game (I do too) and a lot of people find posting on forums (etc) helps this, but how about writing it up all you like and hitting preview post instead of submit reply, then read through it yourself, then close the bl**dy window cause we don't want to know!
i wonder if you feel you have the "right" to tell us what we should and should not do?
Seriously stop the complaining/bitching at KK, I honestly don't care whether you feel you have the "right" to after "suffering" for so long. read through the terms and conditions you agreed to when you signed up, I really doubt there is anything which would lead you to belive you have any right to this kind of behaviour (please if you do find something quote it in a reply here). I'm entitled to my opinion regarding KK's handling of NC2. At this point, it's become quite difficult to accomplish anything substantial in NC2, and that's coming from an LE-only player who doesn't try to PvP or WoC at this point.
Yeah, the ToS says there are no guarantees and we all know that, but when the underlying database is bogged down to the point that one can barely do anything, that says to me someone's not even attempting to hold up their end of the bargain.
(I've noticed 2 GM's have replied/edited in this thread albeit more of a posative kind to them I hope).No GMs have replied to this thread...
then close the bl**dy window cause we don't want to know!You don't want to know that there's no item tracking or player stores, two key items promised with NC2? You don't want to know that the current Terra server is built on the slipshod foundation of Saturn? You want to be kept in the dark regarding the lack of true ranged weaponry?
Nice set of rose colored glasses you have there...
I don't want to say too much here but to answer the thread starter - read my sig and PM me (or anyone else from NC1 beta) if you want another hundred or so reasons why people get angry with KK.
One thing that may not be clear to some people is who does what jobs within or for KK and this sometimes leads to misdirected flames at individuals who don't deserve it, if you look though you will see that they rarely, if ever come from the "vets". Most of us know very well how hard individual employees work (particularly those who have replied to this thread) and appreciate that. In many ways that adds to our frustration when we see huge amounts of effort being put in for such sparse results - it poses a lot of questions about how the company is run.
as for communication... nid has become an unofficial spokesman. he tries to give us what info he can, and yeah certain peole take "maybe" as a certainty... but those people are idiots.
IMO talk to us, give us rough info but tell us it's rough info. once it goes for a while peeps will get used to it, and i bet they will prefer rough info to no info.Exactly. Sensible, honest communication is all we ask for. Conditional statements and caveats are far better than promises in most matters anyway as they help people guage the chances of success and/or slippage.
/edit @Ice Storm - Nae is a GM and so is Nid though he only edited a post so far. Terra is not Saturn - you can still play on Saturn if you want.
see, If I was at KK I wouldnt even dignify people like you with a responce.
Do you think its easy to fix the memory leak?
do you think its easy to balance classes?
do you think its easy to progam a MMO?
yet all you do is whine when they dont meet deadlines they set to you.
so why are you here then huh? if kk sucks so much why are you here?
I love KK. Sure its a buggy game but maybe i understand that its not as easy to program as the counterstrike most of you know and think NC is.No one here as ever said it has been easy but since its been in since the start of whenever they've had a vveeeeery long time to look at it and arent betas for quashin bugs makin sure its smooth on release.
Class balance is easy, on this forum there are ppl of all classes who know the ins outs of all there stuff who could help, the brainport was/is rammed with balance suggestions.
No one said its easy, this community has people of so many talents who are willing to help out for FREE and yet they have it turned away, i know you dont wanna release things etc but damn theres some very skilled individuals who could help with modeling, coding, content etc etc.
Don't set deadlines you can't keep and don't try and blank the community of when you don't meet them, cause people will whine its a dissapointment, every patch i here to be released gives me a slight hope that it will change something that will revive nc, every patch i hope sorts some things out alters a bug balances something anythin to breath a bit of fresh air back into NC's cloggy lungs.
It's only becommin cs because the RP side of NC has been so heavily neglected by the peeps in the places for so long people just gave up what was the point.
Pandore rp is great but server pop is low, Terra does anyone heavily bother, good to see it bein worked on heavily now and hope it becomes as it should.
Nae is a GMFar as I'm aware, she's KK helpdesk first and foremost.
and so is Nid though he only edited a post so far.I wasn't counting edits by forum mods, just looking for KK volunteers/employees.
Terra is not Saturn - you can still play on Saturn if you want.The servers are nothing more than virtualizations. Terra runs on the same server cluster hardware as Saturn did/does, far as I'm aware. That the two share the same cluster (as Saturn did with the test server) means that whatever bogged down Saturn is still bogging down Terra.
Terra's database is barfing at the 10% load level. Zoning in Hacknet? Rarely works for me, and I have ~100ms ping. Items dissappearing and reappearing in my inventory, GG items coming and going, "use" key not working on a regular basis, mobs and NPCs winking in and out - they're all the same symptoms that were plaguing Saturn back in NC1.
Terra's a ticking timebomb. In good faith I moved to a four-slot server because I felt perhaps KK would finally fix the database problems that are the bane of the four-char servers' existence. I'm still waiting, and I'm willing to wait, but I'm not going to sugar-coat the situation.
The servers are nothing more than virtualizations. Terra runs on the same server cluster hardware as Saturn did/does, far as I'm aware. That the two share the same cluster (as Saturn did with the test server) means that whatever bogged down Saturn is still bogging down Terra.
Where did you hear that?
QuantumDelta
20-12-04, 05:07
Hearsay.
Some people really don't listen... No matter how bad you think this game is and how f#*ked over you feel by KK, whineing about it has never and will never help. Try constructive critisism if you must, but I do mean constructive, not overloading them with a list of unrealistic wishes and pointing out all the bugs that hundereds of others already have.
As for QuantumDelta, if you're not a programmer please be quiet, you clearly have no knowledge of how hard it can be to track down what's causing the memory leaks.
If any dev/GM could give an approximation of how many lines of code neocron is currently, and how many programmers they have on staff I'd be interested to know, and I'm sure it would shut a few people up :-)
Some people really don't listen... No matter how bad you think this game is and how f#*ked over you feel by KK, whineing about it has never and will never help. Try constructive critisism if you must, but I do mean constructive, not overloading them with a list of unrealistic wishes and pointing out all the bugs that hundereds of others already have.
Dude your too new to know what it was like back in NC1 when most people posted constructively and enthusiastically, theres a reason that its turned to apathy and bitchiness.
As for QuantumDelta, if you're not a programmer please be quiet, you clearly have no knowledge of how hard it can be to track down what's causing the memory leaks.
Unless your a dev in disguise I sincerely doubt you know how hard it is to solve the problems with NC and I would bet that QD has more of an idea then you do.
If any dev/GM could give an approximation of how many lines of code neocron is currently, and how many programmers they have on staff I'd be interested to know, and I'm sure it would shut a few people up :-)
1. If you would do a search Im sure you could find how many coders there are and I think how many lines of code there were in NC 1.
2. I doubt it will shut anybody up as it doesnt matter how many lines of code you have to sift throught to fix a problem, the problem still has to be fixed.
Im not completely negative about NC or I still wouldnt be here but it doesnt stop me from being disillusioned about the lack of progress with bugs that have been in the game longer then Ive been playing it, I also dont get why people start arse licking threads for no aparent reason as in reality a thread that amounts to STOP BITCHING!!!1111oneoneoneone is really little more then spam.
Hearsay.
That's a polite way of saying what I was thinking.
@kierz - Believe it or not nothing you are saying is either new or particularly helpful. You are also very wrong to say "whineing about it has never and will never help".
Knowing the size of the code-base tells you nothing. There are three programmers at most times (unless more have been hired v. recently).
QuantumDelta
20-12-04, 06:29
Depends on the leak, really doesn't it?
Please note I did not say it was easy.
Nor did I say it was hard.
However it's rule of thumb:
Memory leaks can sometimes be seen just by reading over code.
There's a thing with that though....reading your OWN code is a bitch, because you see what you want to see, not what's really there (I will often read my code backwards first, then forwards, then backwards again, to help get around this, but there really is nothing better than having someone else read the code).
Other times they can be hidden under lines and lines of procedures inside procedures, insofar as sometimes it could even be just a sloppy end to a procedure, that's so convoluted that you can't easily see it.
I don't know how Anotated KKs code is, but most professional designers I know will heavily anotate something as complex as NC pretty much every single frigging function line.
Because otherwise you have to spend ages everytime you come back to a procedure unless you know exactly what it is (Which will normally only be the more common ones).
Nice assumption there.
Edit;
And Yes.
The Number of Devs.
And the Number of Lines of Code in NC1, have both been published.
KK don't completely, leave us in the dark.
Depends on the leak, really doesn't it?
Yes.
Programme? Not too hard for Most MMOs, NC is slightly harder but that's only in the nature of the aiming/firing system, rather than the other systems MMOs use.
Then they should not set deadlines, they should give updates and plans, however deadlines are evil things.
He just said, he was leaving.
I have a six months subsy atm, I am hanging around to see what's going to be happening down the line, but my faith is all but shattered.
KK for the most part: Great peeps.
Terrible company :p
Nice assumption there.
/set ownage qd +1
if they wanted to get rid of the memory leak perhaps they'd start where it hits badly. The character models which seem to have issues at times of keeping track of where everything is. IE. Hair, weapon on back, arms, legs and so forth. Perhaps those bugged character models should be redone or rolled back to prior versions before the memory leak ever existed.
tho that's just my guess, my take on things. Tho what does it matter when it's evident that profit means so much more than customer service or support.
Where did you hear that?The part about Saturn and the test server has been posted before by KK.
The part about Saturn and Terra being one and the same server hardware I thought I had read somewhere. If they're not, then it only confirms that Terra's problems are due to fundamental database/database access issues which plague four-char servers in general - all the more reason to fix them before adding or changing any of the existing content.
The part about the servers being virtualizations? That I've heard from someone I trust.
Any way you slice it, I "win"...
The part about Saturn and the test server has been posted before by KK.
Where? When?
I've not seen that and tbh I really doubt it. 1) TS was started while Saturn was both the busiest and the buggiest server - why load it further? 2) Downtimes for the two didn't match in fact Saturn people used to play on TS during downtime - I'm not 100% certain but I think that includes hardware maintenance times.
The part about Saturn and Terra being one and the same server hardware I thought I had read somewhere.
This definitely isn't true. Start up the NC1 client and look for yourself if you want proof. Lots of people posted this as a theory without engaging their brains. KK have confirmed the obvious several times now.
If they're not, then it only confirms that Terra's problems are due to fundamental database/database access issues which plague four-char servers in general - all the more reason to fix them before adding or changing any of the existing content.
Speculation. There may be some truth to it but it's still speculation.
The part about the servers being virtualizations? That I've heard from someone I trust.
Depends what you mean, each world is a cluster so appears to the external network as a single machine while being many (8 IIRC in NC1 but it may have been more) - the specs of the old boxes and some details on the way they are configured have been posted here before but may have archived by now.
Any way you slice it, I "win"...Erm....:wtf: What was the game? Is there a medal or something?
Where? When?A bit before the switch to NC2 Saturn died for a few days and took the Test Server with it. The Test Server ran on the same hardware as Saturn, so when Saturn was down so was the Test Server (this was posted, it's not just my supposition).
why load it further?I said the same thing when I found out...
Downtimes for the two didn't matchThey don't have to if the databases are running separate - hardware faults would kill both, while database barfs would only kill Saturn.
Start up the NC1 client and look for yourself if you want proof. I'm aware all four old servers are still up. The server process doesn't have to sit on dedicated hardware, nor does the database. What is Saturn NC1 now may not be sitting on NC1 hardware, or it could be sitting on a reduced size hardware platform compared to NC1 days. With a playerbase in the single digits I can't imagine it being hard for a single machine to keep up...
Speculation. There may be some truth to it but it's still speculation.There's a lot of empirical evidence that points to four chars being bad for the database. The four char servers have had reliability issues from early on. The one char servers haven't had nearly as many problems. I think Pluto got hit with a rollback once, maybe twice the entire time NC1 was live, and one of those was due to a patch.
What was the game?Pin the problems on Saturn/Terra...
Finally, found the proof that Test ran on Saturn's hardware. Here's a post from CoDi (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=103371) stating that:
As some of you may know, the testserver runs on Saturn's server cluster. Due to the latest hardware defects, we assigned all available hardware resources, including the testserver, to compensate for the failure.
We'll re-open the testserver as soon as the damaged hardware has been replaced.
So nyah.
I see why KK give up with you, I've got pretty bored reading your responces :(
@ Mr Snow: for a start you can drop that tone with me, I was (probably) around a long time before you was (nc1 beta1 if you must know) but didn't play for very long due to starting college around the same time and I could tell it was only going to take up too much of my time.
I'm sure QD can defend himself if he feels he needs to (I didn't intend to insult him if it was taken that way, sometimes the internet can be very bad at getting the sense people are talking), but I'll carry your point to prove mine is also true, unless he is a GM in disguise he still won't have any idea how hard it is to fix them memory leaks, as far as myself I am a programmer, true I haven't worked on a project as big as neocron is but I have some idea of how impossible (and boring) the task of solving all bugs in nc2 may seem to them..
Anyway I give up, it's not like you're going to stop, you seem set in your ways of complaining till you get your own way, and I'm not stupid I know this has probably been said many times before, don't know why I even bother :\
I see why KK give up with you, I've got pretty bored reading your responces :(
@ Mr Snow: for a start you can drop that tone with me, I was (probably) around a long time before you was (nc1 beta1 if you must know) but didn't play for very long due to starting college around the same time and I could tell it was only going to take up too much of my time. True I never meantioned this in my first post, as I don't really count a few months at the begining as being part of the current community...
I'm sure QD can defend himself if he feels he needs to (I didn't intend to insult him if it was taken that way, sometimes the internet can be very bad at getting the sense people are talking), but I'll carry your point to prove mine is also true, unless he is a GM in disguise he still won't have any idea how hard it is to fix them memory leaks, as far as myself I am a programmer, true I haven't worked on a project as big as neocron is but I have some idea of how impossible (and boring) the task of solving all bugs in nc2 may seem to them..
Anyway I give up, it's not like you're going to stop, you seem set in your ways of complaining till you get your own way, and I'm not stupid I know this has probably been said many times before, don't know why I even bother :\
I see why KK give up with you, I've got pretty bored reading your responces :(
@ Mr Snow: for a start you can drop that tone with me, I was (probably) around a long time before you was (nc1 beta1 if you must know) but didn't play for very long due to starting college around the same time and I could tell it was only going to take up too much of my time.
I'm sure QD can defend himself if he feels he needs to (I didn't intend to insult him if it was taken that way, sometimes the internet can be very bad at getting the sense people are talking), but I'll carry your point to prove mine is also true, unless he is a GM in disguise he still won't have any idea how hard it is to fix them memory leaks, as far as myself I am a programmer, true I haven't worked on a project as big as neocron is but I have some idea of how impossible (and boring) the task of solving all bugs in nc2 may seem to them..
Anyway I give up, it's not like you're going to stop, you seem set in your ways of complaining till you get your own way, and I'm not stupid I know this has probably been said many times before, don't know why I even bother :\
Heh - It's best to give up - everyone is stuck in thier ways now - Believe me - I was the worlds worstest fanboi ever.
And then I got used to missed deadlines (which 90% of the time is just shitty luck on KKs part and nothing they could really control) But bleh - everyone has thier own opinion, and while they could be more constructive in thier responses - they are correct in some of thier views - just as you are correct in some of yours.
I see why KK give up with you, I've got pretty bored reading your responces :(
@ Mr Snow: for a start you can drop that tone with me, I was (probably) around a long time before you was (nc1 beta1 if you must know) but didn't play for very long due to starting college around the same time and I could tell it was only going to take up too much of my time.
I'm sure QD can defend himself if he feels he needs to (I didn't intend to insult him if it was taken that way, sometimes the internet can be very bad at getting the sense people are talking), but I'll carry your point to prove mine is also true, unless he is a GM in disguise he still won't have any idea how hard it is to fix them memory leaks, as far as myself I am a programmer, true I haven't worked on a project as big as neocron is but I have some idea of how impossible (and boring) the task of solving all bugs in nc2 may seem to them..
Anyway I give up, it's not like you're going to stop, you seem set in your ways of complaining till you get your own way, and I'm not stupid I know this has probably been said many times before, don't know why I even bother :\
Wow you were in beta 1 and left so avoided the delay after delay after delay that was dome of york and if you really played beta you would know that DoY was meant to be out before I registered on the forums.
I know what its like to look at lines of code for hours to try see a glitch in it and its a pain in the bollocks but it has to be done.
I dont expect NC to be ever bug free as I never expect any game with constant updating to be bug free, but I do expect priority to be put on gameplay ruining bugs that have been around for over 2 years and I just dont see that priority being set.
The reason nobody is going to stop is because they want this game to progress, if people didnt complain about balance then KK wouldnt know how unbalanced the game is, if people didnt complain about bugs then KK wouldnt know about half the bugs in the game admittedly those bugs should go through the ingame bug tracker or helpdesk but complaining can be constructive as it lets people know whats wrong.
If you dont like what your reading dont open up the forums and if KK were particularly offended by what the read they should shut down the forums and rely on ingame support and the test server for their info.Admittedly there is alot of bullshit on the forums but there is valid threads in there if you want to see it.
A bit before the switch to NC2 Saturn died for a few days and took the Test Server with it. The Test Server ran on the same hardware as Saturn, so when Saturn was down so was the Test Server (this was posted, it's not just my supposition).Reading the quote on that I'm not sure what to make of it tbh. It's definitely odd but may just mean it was easier to boost the Saturn cluster than add a new one (with associated fixed overheads). It's also possible Saturn was heavily overspecced from the days when KK were talking about 2000 players per server. I agree it seems bad but it may not be.
They don't have to if the databases are running separate - hardware faults would kill both, while database barfs would only kill Saturn.I'm aware all four old servers are still up. The server process doesn't have to sit on dedicated hardware, nor does the database. What is Saturn NC1 now may not be sitting on NC1 hardware, or it could be sitting on a reduced size hardware platform compared to NC1 days. With a playerbase in the single digits I can't imagine it being hard for a single machine to keep up...Hard to say for sure but as it takes them 2-3 days to setup a new server and Saturn, Pluto, etc weren't down for that long (if at all) during the transfer I don't think so. My understanding was that each cluster represents one world but from the TS issue I guess it's multiples thereof. I don't believe KK's code is resilient enough to survive major changes to the distribution architecture of a live system.
There's a lot of empirical evidence that points to four chars being bad for the database. The four char servers have had reliability issues from early on. The one char servers haven't had nearly as many problems. I think Pluto got hit with a rollback once, maybe twice the entire time NC1 was live, and one of those was due to a patch.Pin the problems on Saturn/Terra..."Empirical evidence" or "speculation" is just semantics. I agree it's tempting, definitely worth investigating and quite possibly even correct but we don't know. I can see plenty of possible problems that may be made worse by multi-char servers but all of them should be trivial to fix. I still say the biggest issue is the DB itself and I can see how that could also mean "more chars=more problems". Basically - I know what you're saying and kind of agree but believe that if it is the case it's a symptom and not a cause.
QuantumDelta
20-12-04, 17:40
I'm sure QD can defend himself if he feels he needs to (I didn't intend to insult him if it was taken that way, sometimes the internet can be very bad at getting the sense people are talking), but I'll carry your point to prove mine is also true, unless he is a GM in disguise he still won't have any idea how hard it is to fix them memory leaks, as far as myself I am a programmer, true I haven't worked on a project as big as neocron is but I have some idea of how impossible (and boring) the task of solving all bugs in nc2 may seem to them..
GMs have with rare exclusion, little, to nothing to do with the code, so I don't understand where you're coming from.
Memory Leaks aren't habitually Neocron's problem only.
Other Games.
Programs.
They all have memory leak problems, it's a coding thing.
I may not be a professional coder, however I know enough.
Ice;
Saturn ran the test server, it was run on the back because at the time it was either saturn or pluto (Uranus had had a lot of hardware problems in the past, so why would they even wanna try it there?).
Test went down every weekend, without fail.
I do not understand how you can suppose from the fact that test being run from saturn, the NC2 servers are being run from saturn.
Doesn't make sense.
Only Devs will know that, though, I can't tell you you are wrong, I am just telling you there is no evidence to back you up.
Dribble Joy
20-12-04, 17:53
Though all the old servers are still active, KK did in several instances state that they were using brand new/separate hardware to host the NC2 servers.
Jesterthegreat
20-12-04, 22:30
We're still trying to figure this one out. The seems to be no data corruption, yet all the models are whacky.
Saturn is still running on its old hardware, Terra is using new hardware and it's nowhere close to using all its resources.
feel the love (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1657397&postcount=118)
:edit: and on the "kk fuckups" topic... it (the problem discussed in the quote) was infact data corruption and led to the third roll back in three weeks...
note: we still appriciate the info... and the "it seems" made it not definate... talk to us KK :D
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