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View Full Version : Player Shops Discussion... (Ideas etc...)



Capt. Rik
09-12-04, 17:34
Threads demanding player shops have been pretty regular over the last couple of months. To those players demanding them, think about what you are really asking for...

I've been thinking recently about player vendors. A lot of these thoughts are based on SWG as i've played that heavily for months and have used it's player vendor feature extensively.

I've split it up into different categories. Perhaps some of the ideas people come up with would help KK with implenting this.

Player Shop Location
First and foremost, where can player shops be placed? If every player was allowed to place them anywhere in the world them most would opt for zones with high player population (i.e. Plaza 1/2/3/4 and TH). These areas would soon be filled up with vendors.

So other options are to either limit the number of vendors in a sector (screwing over those people who do not play 24/7 and cannot place a vendor as soon as a good plot becomes available) or to only allow players to place vendors in their own apartments. (i'll come onto advertising later)

Item Cost and Maintenance
A runner will want to specify the price of the goods his/her shop will sell. An interface would need to be developed to handle this.

Would a vendor stay there indefinately or would runners be required to pay some sort of running cost? I think players should pay a fee based on how many items are on the vendor and if your maintenance pool runs out then your vendor is destroyed (what happen to the items on it though?)
How does a player actually pay maintenance? (CityCom?)

How many?
How many vendors will players be allowed to have? Those players that play pure tradeskillers would want multiple to be able to mass produce and sell their wares. Those players with combat characters probably would want 1 vendor for loot sales. What decides how many a player can have? (skill based somehow?)

SWG has a good system i think. Every player can place 1 vendor in an allowed location. If you want multiple vendors, you need to spend skill points in the Merchant related skills thus reducing the number of skill points available for other skills.

Also under this category, how many items would be allowed on each vendor? To prevent it from getting out of hand, i would suggest a 50 item limit per vendor. At least this would save on database size.

Placement
Would a vendor be placed in the same way as furniture now? If so, where does a player obtain a "vendor item" and how does he set it up?

Advertising
Ok, painful one here in my opinion. Lets be honest, spam on the in-game chat channels is pretty bad already. I don't want to see 300 vendors automatically spamming their messages all the time on Trade-NC. I don't particularly want to see 20 vendors in local spamming messages either... it's hard enough to keep track of conversations when there is lots of people around. (It's the same problem in SWG)

Saying that however, players will want to advertise their wares. Even if it is just an apartment location and password so that runners can go and view the vendor. I'm open to ideas here...

Impact on the Faction System
Another problem maybe... Sooner or later, a player will set up a vendor offering bulk stock of items from the various FSMs. This vendor will be in a public place and in my opinion will completely undermine the whole faction system even further. Players will not need to interact with other players of opposing factions in order to get items they need.

Should the items that can be sold on a player vendor be regulated in some way?

My Idea
I have an idea (shamelessly stolen from SWG). Implement a Public Bazaar style idea ONLY. Place a public vendor in each major sector and allow each player the ability to offer a limited number of items for sale. Design the interface so that items are grouped by type to make easy searching.

Anyways, discuss...

LTA
09-12-04, 17:47
You should be able to purchase a special apt, which you can furnish youself with special shop furniture (desks, coms, screens, logos etc) then put your vendors in there.

Having it in your apt means you can have more vendors so you say limit to 5 (rifle/pistol, cannons, psi etc etc) and you set them up then you name your shop and it can be listed it under a section of the city com which can list all the players vendors and maybe there short ad.
Make it so you can "attach" a vendor to cabs in the back of the apt and thats how you stock them, they effectively read whats in there and whatever price you somehow set for the items and its upto you to keep em stocked up.
Click on the name in the com and it lists like apt location and lift pass or something and also lists what he stocks based on the vendors within.

FSM items should have some kinda of tax on, like you sell you at XXX price and your deducted 25% faction tax or something like that bearin mind fsm items are expensive anyway it will encourage them to be sold at high rates anyway.

Bugs Gunny
09-12-04, 17:49
Make it like the citycoms and the FSM list

Look up shops, then sort by name, then click on name and get the list.

Won't take up space in the maps, several terminal type things. And reuse of exisiting software.

LiL T
09-12-04, 17:59
I just think that any kind of NPC vendors that stand in plaza will have a massive impact on the database why not just have the players standing AFK in shop mode. I have seen this in lineage and it works pretty well you click them and get a list of there items they are selling. Or maybe the apartment vendor is the best way were you could furnish it to look like a shop with wepons hanging on the walls and stuff . The tradeskill barter pops in my head when it comes to setting up a shop that sells apartment keys and stuff for cheaper than NPC price. KK you really need to get this in it would change the game forever tradeskillers need this badly to fully enjoy the game.

Capt. Rik
09-12-04, 18:04
...why not just have the players standing AFK in shop mode.

Does this require the player to be logged in? I think people want some sort of Offline sales method.

I like the idea of the Barter skill dictating your vendor/item limit etc.

LiL T
09-12-04, 18:14
Does this require the player to be logged in? I think people want some sort of Offline sales method.

I like the idea of the Barter skill dictating your vendor/item limit etc.

After thinking about it players standing AFK would be pointless they may aswell just be at there computers selling normaly. I do like the idea of barter dictating the itea limit this would give people with barter something to do they could be employed by clans to sell there products. Of coarse they would have to be trusted but if someone really wants to be a barter and I have seen a few advertising there skill then this would be a good way for them to find work.

/Edit

Advertising

This could be done with signs maybe placed outside shops so say some player goes to get new armour cos they dropped theres and there would a sign outside the shop. Saying " need new armour ? no problem !! cheaper armour at <insert location of appy here> " Now comes the problem with too many signs dotted around the city so it should cost alot of money to place and have a set time till it gets removed ?

/Edit 2

Thought about it some more how about a TV display flashing up people Add's outside specific places for everyones viewing pleasure I think people will take the time to read them all. I think that would be great seeing a sign read cheaper ammo and boosters drugs !!!

-FN-
09-12-04, 19:15
Some really nice ideas here :) I'm just hoping that translated blurb from the German forum isn't true - if it is, and KK isn't doing to implement the Playershops at all any time soon - a) they're pathetic for not telling us and b) I and about a couple hundred other people are sure as hell out of here. I sincerely hope that's not the case since withholding the truth to retain customers will be hands down the shittiest way to deal with a customer-base.

But I love how mere players have come up with threads so similar to the .plan we beg for almost daily from the actual people in-charge. Yay for lack of professional feedback.

Carinth
09-12-04, 19:54
Probably the easiest (read most likely), is to just have player shops be virtual, accessable by either city term or some new interface. You pay to reserve a place, give your shop a name, drag items into the shop and set a price. The items are nolonger in your inventory, you're done. If someone buys one of your goods the money can be automaticly forwarded to your bank account, or it could be pooled at the shop, waiting for you to collect it. For buyers, they can browse a listing of shop names, maybe even have them broken down by what they sell? They click a shop and see the list of stuff available with price, click an item and click Buy. Money is withdrawn from their account and the item pops up in their inventory.

As to the post about competing with FSM's, well that's entirely the point of player shops. The existing faction distribution system is not efficient enough to support us. Player shops are supposed to allow *us* to redistribute the stuff we need. Though if it works properly, when you buy an item from your FSM and then sell it at your playershop, you would sell it for a higher price then you bought it at. Thus you're not really cheating the FSM out of anything, if someone wants the best price for the item they hafta find someoen in the faction to use the FSM. If they're willing to pay a higher price they can go to a player shop.

Of course that's assuming cash is actualy meaningful, as we all know doesn't last long in nc. Once cash is nolonger important we'll see the same stuff that happens to pokers. A good number of pokers aren't there for cash at all, they have plenty and actualy tell people no tips. This completely screws the pokers who are there for cash, trying to make a living. With player shops, a rich tradeskiller could easily undercut everyone else, cause cash doesn't mean anythin to him.

LiL T
09-12-04, 20:10
Of course that's assuming cash is actualy meaningful, as we all know doesn't last long in nc. Once cash is nolonger important we'll see the same stuff that happens to pokers. A good number of pokers aren't there for cash at all, they have plenty and actualy tell people no tips. This completely screws the pokers who are there for cash, trying to make a living. With player shops, a rich tradeskiller could easily undercut everyone else, cause cash doesn't mean anythin to him.

It happens in anygame :\ theres no escaping it unless they add new items every few month

Capt. Rik
09-12-04, 20:14
It's the same in SWG, any crafter can accumulate millions of credits by surveying and mining the good materials all the time then selling to other crafters.

Considering how many people play the game, there's a heck of a lot of money floating around. Some people in my guild have 25mil + on each of their characters

naimex
09-12-04, 20:34
I say make the job center, if its still there, otherwise, reopen the job center, and make it a place where npcs "sell" other npcs, that you can use for your shops.

wombat74
10-12-04, 01:05
I say make the job center, if its still there, otherwise, reopen the job center, and make it a place where npcs "sell" other npcs, that you can use for your shops.

We've got the Confrence Center sitting there closed, and it was never used for anything - why not convert it into a Bazaar? Then implement some of the things mentioned earlier - rent a vendor (pay a member of the Traders Guild to man your shop), "sell" your items to the vendor (set a price), and set your shop name. People can either browse the traders, or advertising for your shops can be entered into a central CityCom list, or a scrolling display within the Confrence Center itself that can be added to by shopholders, or be generated by the vendor lists themselves.

For Tech Haven, we've already got the tables ready to impliment the vendors in Sec 2, not too sure about DoY - can't imagine it'd be too hard to add in another bazaar area over there...

naimex
10-12-04, 01:42
just got 1 question...

what happens if your "npc dude" gets smoked ?


has to be a safe zone man.. otherwise people risk losing all their crap when the guy gets killed.

wombat74
10-12-04, 01:45
just got 1 question...

what happens if your "npc dude" gets smoked ?


has to be a safe zone man.. otherwise people risk losing all their crap when the guy gets killed.

Easily done - make the conference center a safe zone, TH is already a safe zone, and "The New Place" in Yorkietown can be a safehaven - EASY, SORTED, DONE.

Time for beer.

naimex
10-12-04, 01:46
ok... another question...


what if the npc dude crashes ?

and the items on the npc dude is irretrievable, or too uncertain to determine whether or not it got bugged off, or taken off....

hegemon
10-12-04, 01:52
All great (and some less) ideas, but the more complicated the design gets, the longer it will take. Why not something simple at first - an automatic auction. Every runner is allowed to place 5 items on auction at the same time. Specify starting bid, specify auction duration and specify buyout bid. No fancies, no problems implementing, simple, useful and covers at least 80% of the needs.

I recall similar discussions in Project Entropia about how to make the fancy shops and how to limit their spam and how expensive they would get and how to sell land to build them and hiring NPCs and .... In the end, when the auction was implemented, it became pretty obvious that shops are not that necessary. And when shops finally came, almost noone used them, because it was such a pain to run to a shop while you could just buy almost whatever you need from the auction.

Capt. Rik
10-12-04, 14:18
Yeah Hegemon nailed it in my opinion. The idea of player shops is extremely complicated and if implemented wrongly could completely ruin the game.

I'd like to see Neocron public bazaar style vendors and seperate DoY bazaar vendors. That way hackers could sneak into opposing factions databases in order to steal blueprints to sell to friendly factions etc. Might tie in well with the new item distribution system along with giving hackers some purpose

Doc Holliday
10-12-04, 15:28
ok... another question...


what if the npc dude crashes ?

and the items on the npc dude is irretrievable, or too uncertain to determine whether or not it got bugged off, or taken off....


what if they got there shit together and implemented item tracking and player run shops like were supposed to be in this "expansion" game?

jini
10-12-04, 17:14
I would like built items to be accessed from the comfort of my apartment. Why else do we have those apartments for? A nicely designed interface ala NC style, in which you can see and purchase the items that are sold. Of course items need to be grouped as well.
Another nice idea would be live automated auctions through the same interface for those who want to sell their special equipment. We have never had such a convenience ingame leading to players goodwill to sell or not to sell. Auctioning is a big portion of the game, but we had never had a REAL auction system