View Full Version : [CbT] Possible Theme Week: Soullight System
Dr Strange
09-12-04, 00:52
Vote one of two options please.
I've talked to various people, on this subject. Being realitively new to NC, even I know the current punishement system in the form of -sl isn't good enough.
I'll do my best to avoid blatant direct insults, not at anyone person but at groups of people. It'll be hard but the subject matter is probably the most line walked in discussion I've seen;
Soul light is fucked up, people say it has been for years. I get that. But that does not mean we have to adapt. I do consider it a major game mechanic problem which does need to be fixed in a patch, and even given a theme week for ideas of how to balance it better and add new ideas too it.
I understand the need for a balance. Someone who accidentally kills someone in crossfire while hunting, shouldn't be punished that bad. Whereas people who; kill their own allies, kill their own faction, and gen rep gank need a more severe punishment.
Now before you, yes you the person that's gonna hit reply right about now typing in all caps "oMfG u StUpId CaReBeAR sTOP whining", consider the options you have;
You are playing an MMOFPSRPG that towards end game is geared towards a certain style of PVP, mainly in the form of Op Wars, Pro/Anti Raids or Duels (by duels I mean both people agree not just popping a clip of ammo into some random person).
With that in mind, sure you can leave your LE chip in and just mob hunt till you are hard capped and fully specced. It'll be hard as you won't find many others of that high level with an LE in. But aside from the protection of being killed by anyone anywhere just about, the benefits don't outweight the drawbacks which should be balanced, or at least close to balanced which they are not.
With an LE out you get what we all know and want; the ability to PVP (as listed above), the ability to do epics that require kills (sure you can leave an LE for this but I personally find it risky doing an epic below 30/30), the ability to join OR start a clan (big plus), the ability to hack belts and other things, the ability to particpate in an active non-spectator manor in Op Wars, etc etc etc
Protection from dying, versuses being shut off from a huge part of the game? I'm no game designer but I'd call that unbalanced. Which is why Soul Light is the key balancing issue.
Soul light needs adjusting, obviously. It's sad that I as an Anti-City character can kill a Pro-City runner and get roughly the same amount of -SL as if I had killed a fellow Anti-City, or better yet an Ally or my own faction!
People say it's pvp and you need to adapt. People try to play the scapegoat in the whole "We're spies and now making our prescense known" bullshit. Uh uh, doesn't work that way really, imho. PVP does stand for Player vs Player, however why would KK go to all the trouble of setting up what 12 factions, set into 2 large groups aganist each other, to only have people in the same group of allies or same faction kill each other? I wouldn't consider that PVP I'd consider it an exploit. Yes, an exploit. They lose a minor amount of SL and symp. A few missions and their back to their level. You on the other hand die, drop a belt which could contain something you need and cash for a gen rep back into safe territory. Does that even seem balanced? When you cannot step out of a safe zone because of a group of allies ready to PK you or better yet your own faction with a vendetta aganist all allies and his own faction, is unbalanced.
And adaptation is not the answer. Sure you've had to adapt to some degree since KK has been forth coming with new measures to counter such things, but does not mean we have to bend to a certain will of such players.
They suggest you keep your LE in, sure. At point X (where X is your high levels where you need a party which includes LE'd players to help heal you or buff you or whatever), you're left to hunt alone or find other LE's of that level as you, a tough find. At that point you are given the label of carebear which sure, the Ignore function works but you notice they ban for all kinds of harassment but anyone can call you a carebear on the forums and get away with it scott free, cause theres no ignore button here, or at least none I can find. It can make communication harder cause while you have them ignored, others don't so they can just spam a channel and basically fuck up your business at that current moment.
The Deal With It concept doesn't apply here. If we simply had to deal with it then every single thread about clans whose tactics are a bit controversal should be closed instantly, threads about hacks should be left open, etc since hey you just got "to deal with it". The same applies to the Because I Can philosphy. For kicks let's have someone roleplay a real life hacker and DDoS yer box. Wouldn't be illegal cause following your grand philosphy of "because I can" gives me the instant get out of jail free card from all moral fuckups, oh wait that only works for the pkers and allied gankers but not to anything else right?
Soullight needs to be more harsh;
Kill an Ally, lose normal amount of SL and Symp + another 25% of what ya had, so instead of dropping to -7 you drop down to like -10 or whatever. Not a ton but more than a normal PK of an enemy faction, and it'll add up the more they pk their allies.
Kill a friendly in your own faction, large loss of SL and Symp, total of like 50%.
Now these numbers need to be tweaked some more, since the current system drops you from say 80 SL to like -15. While that jump is huge, a bigger jump should be required for Allied PKers and same faction PKers. This way their punishment is more than normal. Kill an ally drop down to like -20 SL, kill the same faction as yourself and drop down to like -30 SL.
It may seem too harsh for say, friendly fire. That can be rearranged for certain areas. It won't 100% balance it but some. A hunting ground would be a less punishment but still more for killing an ally/faction friendly than an enemy. A non safe zone thats not a hunting area would be the full punishment.
A Theme Week would be best. Ideas from everyone, tweaks, fixes, maybe even added content in the form of a bounter hunter style class (stretch I know but hey we can dream) etc
Now these are just a couple of my ideas for a system change. Toss yours in, vote (yes if ya think it needs rework and/or a theme week, no if ya dont think so)
And if you can honestly justify allied pking and faction friendly pking other than "cause I wanted to" "cause I can" "cuz" "ill play how I want too" then please do, other wise don't bother unless you can bring something constructive.
Holy Long Post Batman o_O Some good points tho
Three Words: The Bounty System (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?p=1682080)
Holy Long Post Batman o_O Some good points tho
Three Words: The Bounty System (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?p=1682080)
I be agreein', for then we can have mutiny on the bounty, yarrrrr
Jesterthegreat
09-12-04, 01:03
agree with the point, disagree with your suggestions.
SL is pointless except for belt drops... give that stuff a real point. make gr's rely on faction symp (clans set it to 50+ or 75+ or even 100, as well as the current clan / all options)
make traders union symps really important to item prices, and hard to increase.
remove belthack... pkers lose more (and gain more) items.
tbh i dont know what should be done... but a 50% loss of symp and an SL hit is just as pointless. people will leave 1 char unclanned or have 1 non ally pk char for symp based purposes. SL will always be easy to gain... otherwise losing it by accident will fuck you over.
:edt: and think about it... kill an ally and get -30 SL? 1 blob his an ally... he dies... you get -30 sl and copbots waste you.
5 items drop, easy belt hack... your fucked by accident.
how about self defense? you get -30 sl and massive drop for defending yourself...
:edit2: and as for justifying it.... its not your place to ask for justification. ally pkers break no rules by doing it.
i was told by people its "harrassment" cos they dont want to be killed, and i gotta say thats the stupidest thing i heard in long time. if i remove my LE and say i dont want anyone to kill me... can i report the evil pkers? every single one?
no. i knew the risk when i removed the LE.
i agree it needs a fix, i disagree with this fix.
whoa that took some reading, but yeah good points
you know what, turning off friendly fire seems more and more appealing every day, now we have a much more red VS Blue thing going on it could work, only problem there is Mercs would become totally impossible to be mercs...
tho the bounty system is another good idea...
I like the idea that was stated in other threads that if you are atacked first and you defend your self and kill the atacker then you dont lose anything for it. And implement clan wars!!
Jesterthegreat
09-12-04, 01:49
I like the idea that was stated in other threads that if you are atacked first and you defend your self and kill the atacker then you dont lose anything for it. And implement clan wars!!
i trust kk to code only the agressor to have a symp hit... really! :rolleyes:
Tweaking the numbers won't help a bit. It will just slightly adjust the number of kills an ally killer can make before he needs to do a few missions.
The central problem in automatic punishments is that the punishment must be harsh enough to stop people from deliberately doing bad stuff, but not harsh enough to unfairly hit someone who did a mistake (or suffered from a bug). At the same time, the punishment must not be permanent or even too long term. If you can't recover from the punishment in a few hours, this type of automatic systems would discourage too many people from playing. If one stray bullet makes me work hard for a week to recover, I'll go play some other game that allows me to have fun and do mistakes. So basically, the central problem of automatic punishments is that they must behave as the current SL system does and you can't do anything about it.
But wait. It's not really important to punish someone. We just want to stop them from ganking allies. The trick would be then to make ally ganking such a time sink that you could run to the other city kill 200 people and run back in the same time it takes you to kill 5 allies. There are many ways to accomplish this. Here is a simple one: Keep the SL system as it is now. Don't worry about it. For every ally kill you get a certain amount of SI. Make SI recovery timed by the SL. If you have low SL, SI recovers slowly. If you have high, it recovers fast. That would actually encourage people to have high SL. Today, my only encouragement wrt. SL is to keep it some bit over 10. I don't fight to have it as high as possible since I know that the stray bullet will happen and I'll loose it again. I just care about the guards not shooting at me. And the protection against belt hacking is not a big enough carrot either. I have a 80 SL conster that got killed 4 times today and had all 4 belts hacked.b
i dont care how they fix soullight, but id like not to go from 50 soullight to -11 in one kill :p
yeah that is fucked, i got my CM FS from 16 to 90 to use the FSM, and in the process got a shit load of SL, like 70+, i killed on neutral who was trying to kill me, and i dropped to -8 SL.....then i killed his partner and went to -9...how does that even make one iota of sense....
Yes, please.
Cant go on the way it is now, i`m logging in less and less cause all this allied ganking shit just ruins it for me.
I`m fine with pvp, i want to be in a clan, i love fighting. But theres just so many fucking assholes about, i cant even leave my apartment anymore without the chance of getting attacked. Not funny. I hate those people. Seriously hate em.
Dont see any serious way out of it. Its the "griefer's mentality" problem, not game mechanic. It doesnt really matter what their justifications are, in the end they just want to destroy all other's fun and make them leave which is, indeed, the most ultimate win one can have in a mmorpg.
Sorry but there's no options for that, like jester said, bigger SL loss will have bigger impact on friendly fire while fight which is inevitable in certain situations.
The only real solution is up to players, to fight them, but faction sympathy loss isnt a nice thing, so most people tend to avoid them instead of fighting. I'd say, if a defender have the chance of killing allied enemy without loosing sl/fs it could encourage more people to deal with it (suggestions were made already: make temporary 'allied attacker' tags which make you dont loose SL/FS in self defence), though its probably too hard to implement.
higher SL loses would help VS Allied PKers, but would be worse for people who defend themselves, unless it could differentiate agains that...mebbe making every one except CM Allied or Hostile to everyone else, and turning off Friendly Fire. Dont know about CM, Hostile to everyone and they'd become the gankers haven, which i dont want, and allied to all would mean they cant kill anyone making them as usefull as a pair of fake tits on a mutant as mercs...
I myself think ppl kill way more allies becouse they are right around the corner.
pvp is fun, why bother genreping somewere and gettin ganked if u can fight in plaza 1 with loads of savezones.
edit, I dont think its the sl that needs a change
yeah but without telepathy and subliminal messaging we cant change WHAT does need changing, people have prooved that time and time again, alot of people just arent mature enough to be able to choose who they kill
StealthyAssassi
09-12-04, 12:02
Blah too much too read, so here is just my short statement:
I was pking in Neocron and killed an alternative character from an anti city clan. He said rez me (doh, I am an APU and did not have a PPU with me - like all those pro cities btw ;)) and I didnt. So he said he'll come with his anti city tank and kill me.
Well he tried and when he failed I went from 100 SL to -7 because I defended myself.
You might ask yourself: an APU with 100 SL who expects to keep it? o_O
Well I tried...
Also, my belts got hacked EVERY time, and not by spies, because the stupid PPUs with their +20 hack ruin everything - so whats the point in 100 SL?
(Wasnt as short as it could be but who cares :D)
I dont think its the sl that needs a changeWhat then to stop em?
Last night saw some serious spamming on chat about allied kills.
Carebear insults were flying and a few worse ones :(
Im fed up with all the greifing.
I even saw some guy say he didn't give a Fuck about SL, he just leaves his comp on over night to gain SL, every night apparently and was proud of it!
This change from NC1 in safezones has almost made the game UNPLAYABLE.
I have had 3 mates leave these past few weeks due to all the hassle :( and thoughts have crossed my mind.
:mad: If you look past the annoyance of being ganked by someone jerking off to there l33t setup there is a much bigger isuue.
:mad: Player interaction and community.
If as a player you get repeatedly ganked by the same faction and allies you will start to avoid those people, as more ganking ensues from revenge attacks and defense, you start to avoid pretty much everyone.
Soon players suspect every allie will try to gank them so attack first :(
Community will break down. "You attacked my alt why the fuck should i trade with you" " res for you" etc..etc...
I am sad to say without a FIX this will destroy the whole Red v's Blue and the whole game. I can deal with all the other issues hell its part of the game :)
The steady rise of FARMING allied belts is also a big issue.
As for the Put your LE crap in I personnaly like PvP v's REDS not everyone! since it seems a bit of a freefor all out there lately.
Sex me i just been ganked by an allied :p
In the retaliation part
If the server is logging hits then surely it can register who shot who first so say Player A Shoots B the server notes that, then if the dmg is like a certain amount and player b retaliates he shouldn't suffer sl loss.
When i was at the unmentionable game forum i think they were on about this type of system where you could shoot back without penalty if you were shot first.
Vendors need more resistance to stuff so they can take a pastin, specially places like malstrond where stray shots at the shop wall kills your sl without you noticing at times heh.
all the vendors should be godmoded. SHOULD lol
Dribble Joy
09-12-04, 15:29
Havn't read most of the thread but.. meh.
The SL system needs an overhaul, a big one. A theme week that fiddles and fixes won't do anything to alieviate the problem.
Personally I say get rid of SL itself, make faction symp vastly more important, Ie guard reactions, GR access, buying items and other aspects of life in game.
Alts will allways be a problem. You can't really start to tie the alts on one server/account together, be it faction, symps and clans. As that defeats the idea of different chars.
I would move to a 1 slot server, but we all know it won't happen.
Player interaction and community.
If as a player you get repeatedly ganked by the same faction and allies you will start to avoid those people, as more ganking ensues from revenge attacks and defense, you start to avoid pretty much everyone.
Leads To -
Community will break down. "You attacked my alt why the fuck should i trade with you" " res for you" etc..etc...
Please.please fix this game!!!
Im not a pk'er well certainly not random but I like the tense feel of running around Doy.
In rl anyone has the option of sticking a knife in your back and race, religion shoe size ect. isnt a consideration. There are murderers out there, deal with it! The weak are prayed on in the world and the weak attack more then they can chew sometimes and pay the price.
As far as belts go, some people turn lost wallets in, some people loot em thats life/human nature.
I feel for some of the new people in that they probably didnt think it through when removing there LE's but as for me it has made my fav. game more interesting.
Before you flame please note that I dont attack allies/neutrals, I'm the one on the recieving end, but being a Plutonion FA Im always suspicious of anyone on my local list.
If I want to socilise in peace I goto HQ or TH not stand in Doy centre yapping away, that just makes me a target.
The way I see it is that your trying to give traders/non-pvp'ers an easier life whilst introducing rules for those who are having fun doing what there doing, what you going to do when all those peeps start threating to leave because you have restricted there gameplay
btw anyone who leaves NC because they have been killed a few times can stay gone for all I care, its not a good excuse to leave unlike C2P and the many bugs and broken promisses, you should have tryed being FA for the most part of this year on Pluto :rolleyes:
btw bring in => 1 slot server & the bounty system tbh
btw anyone who leaves NC because they have been killed a few times can stay gone for all I care, its not a good excuse to leave
My friends didn't leave because they were killed a few times they left because they felt the game is almost unplayable with the current ' Justice system' and surrounding exploits to gain SL i.e. leaving Pc on all night
If you wanna KOS everyone go to a FPS free for all.
If you want to interact in a community as part of a larger world then this is the game for you. I'm not saying PvP is not a large part of Neocron as thats part of the draw to the game for me and others.
But the constant Pk'ing of allies then spamming of trade or alliance channel with the usual ' you carebear put your le in' ' Im l33t' shit is not only destroying relations but pissing of the tradeskill part of the community as they can't get a word in edgeways.
stay gone for all I care
Then Neocron will be over mate and no more PvP no more ganking as the player base dwindles to a few l33t PK everything in sight players :(
I don't mind the fact that some allied runner don't like me and decides there going to kill me. Its the SL loss and faction hit I will receave if I kill him for attacking me also there not getting punished enough. They should take a massive symp hit and still able to lose there faction while clanned losing your faction sucks. But it will make them think twice and factionless runners should be KOS to all factions but they should still suffer SL loss for killing people that imo is the best way.
Unless there going to make AB playable but that I think may be worse but then again it could be a good thing it would seperate good guys from bad guys something this game lacks.
Bugs Gunny
09-12-04, 16:53
Do you know how long it takes for you to get from -23 sl to +16 ?
2 MINUTES.
What people do is stock up some tl 150 bp missions, then kill allieds in the city, get red sl, run to HQ, run three or four missions and go back out homefree.
they should indeed make it so that factionless is red to everyone, for being an outlaw, and that you can lose faction even when clanned.
Cruzbroker
09-12-04, 17:13
*Too much to read and gotta play wow* ..
I want a bounty system.
And I still think:
when SL gets higher, the belt hack is harder.
when SL gets lower, the belt hack is harder.
between +16 and -16 SL the hack is equally hard.
Same drops.
Do you know how long it takes for you to get from -23 sl to +16 ?
2 MINUTES.
What people do is stock up some tl 150 bp missions, then kill allieds in the city, get red sl, run to HQ, run three or four missions and go back out homefree.
they should indeed make it so that factionless is red to everyone, for being an outlaw, and that you can lose faction even when clanned.
I don't think thats possible now I think they made mission specific BP's too stop that could be wrong but I read it somewhere
Dr Strange
10-12-04, 06:09
The fact is its a problem most of us can agree on.
Take yesterday for example. In the FA area of DoY, there's usually a few small raids done by cloaking spy's, pistol and/or riflers. The occasional ppu to back them.
Now most of the time it's Pro Cities who do this, which is normal for the game. But when you get an Anti-City raid, ON AN ANTI CITY FACTION AREA something is fucking wrong. 4 Anti City guy's, in allied factions to my own, killed every player in sight in the FA/Crahn/TG area for about a few hours yesterday.
Which brings up the dilema, kill or be killed. If you just let them kill you, sure they get the SL "punishment" but they also get whatever item(s) you dropped. Also since their Anti City they can easily just run back to their faction HQ really quick do missions and boom instant positive SL. If you kill them, sure you can grab an item off of them if you can hack or have a hacker with you but you also get negative SL and sympathy, simply for defending yourself from YOUR OWN ALLIES in your own area of the world.
Some argue that's fair, they get the same punishment and can do the same things to regain their SL so you can do the same. True, but did you stop to think alot of us don't want it that way? I'd rather work my balls off a little when I get -SL to work back to positive, just so that when I am Ally Ganked I know those Allies also have to work their balls off to get back to a positive SL just like me. That's fair. We shouldn't have to "adapt" to Allies ganking us. It's not PvP. It's not RPing. It's just guys being assholes because the current system of SL and game rules, lets them.
We shouldn't have to "adapt" to Allies ganking us. It's not PvP. It's not RPing. It's just guys being assholes because the current system of SL and game rules, lets them.
Never a more true assesment of the situation !
This is a from of EXPLOIT !
They abuse the SL system, they gank in order to farm belts and grief players and they say they do it because 'they can' and the GM's can't do shit!
I have seen individuals having more and more heated debates on alliance it's gonna have to be taken under control before my ignore list falls of the bottom of my page :(
Bugs Gunny
10-12-04, 15:13
Best sollution would be to implement the first to get hit being the one that doesn't lose SL.
This way there doesn't need to be too much change to the software and workings of sl.
Best sollution would be to implement the first to get hit being the one that doesn't lose SL.
I agree that would solve the players who defend themselves.
But it does not solve the issue of players willing to take the SL hit when allied Ganking beacause they can so easily recover the SL.
Sl is not a severe enough punishment for allied gankers, if it was they wouldn't do it.
Richard Blade
10-12-04, 15:28
Im not a pk'er well certainly not random but I like the tense feel of running around Doy.
In rl anyone has the option of sticking a knife in your back and race, religion shoe size ect. isnt a consideration. There are murderers out there, deal with it! The weak are prayed on in the world and the weak attack more then they can chew sometimes and pay the price.
The only problem with thinking like this is that in "real life" we have 1 murdering asshole to 50,000 people.(roughly, depending on where you have the fortune or misfortune of living.)
In Neocron, not counting the legitimate PvP crowd, we have 1 murdering asshole - newb ganking - allied pk'ing person to 4 other players. I know, the numbers aren't accurate, but they do prove how you can't compare "real life" to the game.
The way I see it is that your trying to give traders/non-pvp'ers an easier life whilst introducing rules for those who are having fun doing what there doing, what you going to do when all those peeps start threating to leave because you have restricted there gameplay
Tell them to put their LE's back in? That's what they tell everyone else. :D
btw anyone who leaves NC because they have been killed a few times can stay gone for all I care, its not a good excuse to leave unlike C2P and the many bugs and broken promisses, you should have tryed being FA for the most part of this year on Pluto :rolleyes:
New people that pull their LE's should have known better, they are warned a lot now. They just have to take the time to read the warnings. Although, veteran players telling them that everything will be all right and ganking them when the chip comes out, is a bit over the top. Especially considering they were allies. There is a fine line between being ganked a few times and overreacting, and being ganked 30 times in one day and not knowing where to go next as all the leveling areas are camped.
I know there are areas that are relatively safe to hunt, but the new people haven't explored enough to find those places. Also, they should have left their LE in, but that's no excuse for the allied ganking that happens.
If they get killed in a raid, I guess that's just part of the risk.
Oh, and jnky, none of this is aimed at you personally even though I quoted you, it's just thoughts from the other side of the coin.
Regards,
RB
trigger hurt
10-12-04, 15:35
myself and another guy were discussing this the other day.
Soul Light is nothing more than a number. It's an switch that tells you when most of your belt is safe, how tough your belt will be to hack and how many missions you've run. I have 100 Soul Light on 2 chars. I have had 100 soul light on them since the 5th day of NC2 retail. I don't get any benefits from having, and keeping my soul light this high. So why should there be harsh negatives if I let my soul light get below 30? It shouldn't matter.
My suggestion, along with the few people that were talking about it is experience loss. Now, this should not only be based off of ally vs ally ganking, but it should also judge experience loss based on a comparison of the skill ranks. Personally, I think it's completly stupid to base xp gain in teams and epic kills off of combat rank, but that's another post.
Should go something like this.
If you kill an ally 20 skill levels or below, you lose 15% total xp in all skills.
If you kill an ally 10 skill levels or below, you lose 10% total xp in all skills.
If you kill an ally at your skill level or higher, you lose 8% total xp in all skills.
Now, this is a war against two big cities. In war, there are no rules. So, ganking someone lower rank than you who is red, carries no penalty.
Liebestoter
10-12-04, 15:50
The steady rise of FARMING allied belts is also a big issue.
Vertigo and Intel send their warmest regards.
Jesterthegreat
10-12-04, 21:38
Never a more true assesment of the situation !
This is a from of EXPLOIT !
They abuse the SL system, they gank in order to farm belts and grief players and they say they do it because 'they can' and the GM's can't do shit!
I have seen individuals having more and more heated debates on alliance it's gonna have to be taken under control before my ignore list falls of the bottom of my page :(
its not an exploit...
noob buffs "abuse" the buff system... thats not an exploit.
missions is an exploit to get SL? please... if that weas the case thyey wouldnt give SL
and note who the "heated debates" are started by... not usually the killers.
however i agree something needs doing about the current system
I'd go with clan wars! Probably the best way to deal with this allied ganking too.
Dr Strange
12-12-04, 10:40
It's sad really.
Forum rules say you can't name names or point a finger. Can't specifically name a clan or group of people, for fear of flames and trolls coming out en mass.
It is seriously fucking sad. KK won't do shit to help us on this issue yet we cannot fully express concerns in regards to certain individuals and such. Sure we can fire off the obligatory email but its ignored, as such behavior is currently condoned via the current soullight system, and how factions and their allies work.
And the more fucked up part, we're PAYING MONEY FOR THIS SHIT. Sure, in time they might fix this but lemme put it this way; as much as I play every day leveling my characters, playing with friends etc for every time I am ganked by an ally or my own damn faction it makes me want to play alot less and I generally do that, the whole desire to play just gets sucked out when little counter-strike 12 year olds get their rocks off from ganking their own allies and their own faction.
trigger hurt
12-12-04, 10:44
It's sad really.
Forum rules say you can't name names or point a finger. Can't specifically name a clan or group of people, for fear of flames and trolls coming out en mass.
It is seriously fucking sad. KK won't do shit to help us on this issue yet we cannot fully express concerns in regards to certain individuals and such. Sure we can fire off the obligatory email but its ignored, as such behavior is currently condoned via the current soullight system, and how factions and their allies work.
And the more fucked up part, we're PAYING MONEY FOR THIS SHIT. Sure, in time they might fix this but lemme put it this way; as much as I play every day leveling my characters, playing with friends etc for every time I am ganked by an ally or my own damn faction it makes me want to play alot less and I generally do that, the whole desire to play just gets sucked out when little counter-strike 12 year olds get their rocks off from ganking their own allies and their own faction.
You have invalidated your entire argument by putting yourself into the group with the rest of the people on this forum who complain about getting ganked by anyone.
Fact is, I know a few of the people who kill allied factions and they aren't 12. They don't play countrstrike and it doesn't give them a hard on. When you, and the rest of this community stop comparing pk'rs to children, maybe the pk'rs might listen to how you feel. Tossing insults about only brings you down to their level.
The pk'rs I know have full time jobs and don't live with their mommies.
Dr Strange
12-12-04, 11:47
You have invalidated your entire argument by putting yourself into the group with the rest of the people on this forum who complain about getting ganked by anyone.
Fact is, I know a few of the people who kill allied factions and they aren't 12. They don't play countrstrike and it doesn't give them a hard on. When you, and the rest of this community stop comparing pk'rs to children, maybe the pk'rs might listen to how you feel. Tossing insults about only brings you down to their level.
The pk'rs I know have full time jobs and don't live with their mommies.
Ok, let me put it this way; it doesn't matter who or what these allied pkers are in real life, bottom line is they are still assholes exploiting the current soulight system to their personal advantage. They could be full time employed people who live on their own, they could be young children who can't even tell between reality and fantasy, bottom line is their behavior is driving people away from playing this game.
You're probably going to be one that says people who leave over such things should leave anyway. Be that whatever, KK should take a stance aganist such behavior, and those who condone it such as yourself.
I totally agree with Dr Strange. I talked to several allied PK'ers even tryed to talk reasonable. Well they only answered with calling me whiner or carebear. They tbh don't give a shit about feelings and stuff. They play the game as they want to play it and it happens to be as players killing their allies. If KK intencions is to have the city falling appart then they are leading the game the right dirrection.
As it is now its hard to get rid of allied PK'ers cause no one really trust each other. Allied PK'ing is happening too often and too random, no one knows to trust who. The people playing the game as roleplay and following the guidelines ( as looking who is allied and who is enemy) are getting tyred of PK'ers. I got in kontakt with quite a few and everyone is talking about is it worth it. Why play the game when you don't like the turn it takes. Its getting more and more as a first person shooter not a roleplay. Many i talked too are talking to play World of Warcraft or something and some already left the game. Even the oldest clan still alive (TGM the clan i am member of) are loosing members who played from beta and foundet the clan in retail.
Jesterthegreat
12-12-04, 22:49
I talked to several allied PK'ers even tryed to talk reasonable.
we had a proper discussion in TH the other day...
anyways, whining about us, breaking the rules, then whining about the rules isnt constructive
Liebestoter
13-12-04, 06:07
The problem here.. lies in the fact people have alts on various factions.
Person A is on their TG alt, and has another character, let's just say.. it's a gimpy ass APU monk.. on CA.
Person B is on his TT, and kills Person A's TG character.
Person A throws a shit fit, logs on their CA and kills the TT.
And the vicious cycle of violence begins.
This problem could be remedied simply by not allowing people to log on characters in different factions instantly. Institute a 25 minute delay when switching between pro and anti city characters. This worked well on a PvP mud I used to play (the MUD was by Mythic, and was the basis for DAoC) and effectively eliminated "cross realming', the act of logging on a newbie character in an opposing realm to collect information about invasions, etc.
So impliment a delay, and overhaul the SL system.. and the problem is solved.
No more allied ganking, no more people logging on endless streams of alts to avenge the pee kaying of their other characters.
Needs to be fixed. Hands down.
trigger hurt
13-12-04, 08:43
Ok, let me put it this way; it doesn't matter who or what these allied pkers are in real life, bottom line is they are still assholes exploiting the current soulight system to their personal advantage. They could be full time employed people who live on their own, they could be young children who can't even tell between reality and fantasy, bottom line is their behavior is driving people away from playing this game.
You're probably going to be one that says people who leave over such things should leave anyway. Be that whatever, KK should take a stance aganist such behavior, and those who condone it such as yourself.
I disagree. The people who are driving people away from this game is KK themselves. Let me tell you how KK takes a stance on ganking, greifing and other PvP...yes...even the good kind.
Beltdrop. Progressivly dropping more items the lower your soul light goes.
What I want to know is. Why, when I have 4 chars with 100 SL, that have never killed an ally that didnt attack them first do I not get a benefit of having high sl?
Why is it that all the people who are red drop more items than the person who is not red? It should be the same all around. If you die, you drop a belt...no matter where you are or what killed you. And in this belt is one item and one item only.
Back in the day, there were a few people who killed anything and everything. Not because they were 12 and had a severe case of acne. No. They were role playing murderers and theives. They were the unsavory type you wouldn't want to meet in a dark ally. They went red and they stayed red. NC2 is seriously lacking those people.
Why? Well, because of the bounty system. Because they dropped everything when they died and their belts were easy hacks. It was impossible for them to level their chars without being killed. You may think, well, they have to accept the road they chose. But I say, it's the whiners and the carebears who make those types of roleplayers unwelcome.
Personally. I say do away with the SL system. Do away with belts, one item falls from your quickbelt when you die. Nothing from your inventory. Warzones and Anarchy zones alike. The only thing that matters is your faction sympathy. If you drop below zero in any faction, that factions gaurds attack you immediatly. No warnings. No "hey get on out of here". If the faction doesn't like you, they toast you.
Finally. instate a system that allows a person to have chars in only one city or the other. This will work 2 fold. One, it will get rid of the people who are in enemy factions coming in and stirring shit up inside the other city to get allies fighting each other. If you are TG, you cannot have a CA alt. Second, it will force people to trade for the items they need. None of this shit about making an alt, leveling him to /45 and completing the epic. If they need something from an enemy factions FSM or other Suppliers, they have to buy it from a smuggler or they gotta get it through trade.
For this, there would have to be a warning though. Say a few weeks before it occurs to give those people with those chars in enemy factions a chance to complete their epics and move out of the faction or just plain get the hell out of the city. Once that waiting period is over, the char will go factionless and be shot on sight.
But that's just how I feel about it.
trigger hurt
13-12-04, 08:47
we had a proper discussion in TH the other day...
anyways, whining about us, breaking the rules, then whining about the rules isnt constructive
It wouldn't be so bad if NCAT weren't the biggest carebears of all. They run into plaza 1, kill a few newbies then run off to get their soul light back up when the shit hits the fan and a team of high level runners shows up to give them a good, honest fight.
That, and their leader *cough* has an agreement with a certain clan for them to "please not attack" him, meanwhile, the other members of his clan are free to do as they please.
Dr Strange
13-12-04, 16:32
I disagree. The people who are driving people away from this game is KK themselves. Let me tell you how KK takes a stance on ganking, greifing and other PvP...yes...even the good kind.
Beltdrop. Progressivly dropping more items the lower your soul light goes.
What I want to know is. Why, when I have 4 chars with 100 SL, that have never killed an ally that didnt attack them first do I not get a benefit of having high sl?
Why is it that all the people who are red drop more items than the person who is not red? It should be the same all around. If you die, you drop a belt...no matter where you are or what killed you. And in this belt is one item and one item only.
Back in the day, there were a few people who killed anything and everything. Not because they were 12 and had a severe case of acne. No. They were role playing murderers and theives. They were the unsavory type you wouldn't want to meet in a dark ally. They went red and they stayed red. NC2 is seriously lacking those people.
Why? Well, because of the bounty system. Because they dropped everything when they died and their belts were easy hacks. It was impossible for them to level their chars without being killed. You may think, well, they have to accept the road they chose. But I say, it's the whiners and the carebears who make those types of roleplayers unwelcome.
Personally. I say do away with the SL system. Do away with belts, one item falls from your quickbelt when you die. Nothing from your inventory. Warzones and Anarchy zones alike. The only thing that matters is your faction sympathy. If you drop below zero in any faction, that factions gaurds attack you immediatly. No warnings. No "hey get on out of here". If the faction doesn't like you, they toast you.
Finally. instate a system that allows a person to have chars in only one city or the other. This will work 2 fold. One, it will get rid of the people who are in enemy factions coming in and stirring shit up inside the other city to get allies fighting each other. If you are TG, you cannot have a CA alt. Second, it will force people to trade for the items they need. None of this shit about making an alt, leveling him to /45 and completing the epic. If they need something from an enemy factions FSM or other Suppliers, they have to buy it from a smuggler or they gotta get it through trade.
For this, there would have to be a warning though. Say a few weeks before it occurs to give those people with those chars in enemy factions a chance to complete their epics and move out of the faction or just plain get the hell out of the city. Once that waiting period is over, the char will go factionless and be shot on sight.
But that's just how I feel about it.
While I can listen to people's opinions, yours just screams out wrong to me.
From what I understand you wish to make it so these pking allied gankers and whatnot can stay red and keep playing that way. The ONLY and I do mean ONLY thing keeping them at bay to a small small degree IS the fact that once they hit red they lose a secure slot and can drop multiple items. Sure they get their rocks off whomever they are by killing me but once I call in help and return the favor plus snatch up a nice 5 slotted rare or oblit from their belt it balances to a small degree.
Now I can personally sacrifice the chance of multiple items from red characters cause even then it's still a crap shoot on what you can get, merely for the fact of not being killed by an ally.
If that system you suggested were in place for say Pro vs Anti, I could more so agree with it, except the Warzone part as that should stay belt free. But the Ally/Faction suggestions just won't work really.
The sad part is you and others seem to think its currently catered to "us" the so called carebears and whiners. If I wanted to be pked by ANYONE in a game I'd go play AO or some other gay MMORPG. Hell I'd be playing WoW if my computer could run it simply because of its PvP system which hinders random pking and ganking without concent from both sides. But I can't which isn't that bad cause I do love and enjoy NC2. KK hasn't taliored the system to the carebears they've tailored it to the Pkers.
When you can't step out of your apartment lift because of an ALLIED pker or a pker OF THE SAME FACTION, that's a problem KK needs to fix, not a whine or a carebear cry.
When you can't go to the main meeting area of your own group (city center, plaza etc) without because of an ALLIED pker or a pker OF THE SAME FACTION, that's a problem KK needs to fix, not a whine, or a carebear cry.
Tts simple logic an ally should not be able to kill an ally or at least not without SEVERE punishment. There aren't enough DoY guards inside the Dome around to kill them, especially if they ninja stealth their way through.
I am not a carebear, we are not carebears. We have our LE's out, we do PvP, we do Op War, we do duel, wanting our own factions to NOT FUCKING KILL US is not being carebear its being fucking rational and logical with the scheme of the god damn game.
What is the point of having factions? Seriously, if factions that are allies are killing each other what's the point? DoY is so fucked up because of several unnamed clans who wish to kill ANY anti-city faction within the Dome. DoY is so fucked up because of runners of anti-city factions killing anything anti-city within the Dome. We need to either A, fix soullight so it severely punishes allied pkers and faction pkers or B, simply do away with all the of the DoY factions and just make all DoY players faction-less that are in some form aganist Pro City, assuming we can defend aganist our own selves first before fighting Pro City.
If you cannot see the simple logic in that, there is no need for further discussion between myself and you. No reason you can give will make it correct, the poll shows how the majority feel, the dropping server populations (including othe problems yes) show how people feel, you are driving new players away, driving old players away, you are making people not want to play the game. When KK see's their losing customers of this issue, hopefully they'll help us. If not, then there is no hope and we just sit back and watch as you'll be left with no allies left to PK but each other.
trigger hurt
13-12-04, 18:47
While I can listen to people's opinions, yours just screams out wrong to me.
From what I understand you wish to make it so these pking allied gankers and whatnot can stay red and keep playing that way. The ONLY and I do mean ONLY thing keeping them at bay to a small small degree IS the fact that once they hit red they lose a secure slot and can drop multiple items. Sure they get their rocks off whomever they are by killing me but once I call in help and return the favor plus snatch up a nice 5 slotted rare or oblit from their belt it balances to a small degree.
Now I can personally sacrifice the chance of multiple items from red characters cause even then it's still a crap shoot on what you can get, merely for the fact of not being killed by an ally.
If that system you suggested were in place for say Pro vs Anti, I could more so agree with it, except the Warzone part as that should stay belt free. But the Ally/Faction suggestions just won't work really.
The sad part is you and others seem to think its currently catered to "us" the so called carebears and whiners. If I wanted to be pked by ANYONE in a game I'd go play AO or some other gay MMORPG. Hell I'd be playing WoW if my computer could run it simply because of its PvP system which hinders random pking and ganking without concent from both sides. But I can't which isn't that bad cause I do love and enjoy NC2. KK hasn't taliored the system to the carebears they've tailored it to the Pkers.
When you can't step out of your apartment lift because of an ALLIED pker or a pker OF THE SAME FACTION, that's a problem KK needs to fix, not a whine or a carebear cry.
When you can't go to the main meeting area of your own group (city center, plaza etc) without because of an ALLIED pker or a pker OF THE SAME FACTION, that's a problem KK needs to fix, not a whine, or a carebear cry.
Tts simple logic an ally should not be able to kill an ally or at least not without SEVERE punishment. There aren't enough DoY guards inside the Dome around to kill them, especially if they ninja stealth their way through.
I am not a carebear, we are not carebears. We have our LE's out, we do PvP, we do Op War, we do duel, wanting our own factions to NOT FUCKING KILL US is not being carebear its being fucking rational and logical with the scheme of the god damn game.
What is the point of having factions? Seriously, if factions that are allies are killing each other what's the point? DoY is so fucked up because of several unnamed clans who wish to kill ANY anti-city faction within the Dome. DoY is so fucked up because of runners of anti-city factions killing anything anti-city within the Dome. We need to either A, fix soullight so it severely punishes allied pkers and faction pkers or B, simply do away with all the of the DoY factions and just make all DoY players faction-less that are in some form aganist Pro City, assuming we can defend aganist our own selves first before fighting Pro City.
If you cannot see the simple logic in that, there is no need for further discussion between myself and you. No reason you can give will make it correct, the poll shows how the majority feel, the dropping server populations (including othe problems yes) show how people feel, you are driving new players away, driving old players away, you are making people not want to play the game. When KK see's their losing customers of this issue, hopefully they'll help us. If not, then there is no hope and we just sit back and watch as you'll be left with no allies left to PK but each other.
Aside from the fact that opinions cannot be wrong because they are...opinions, I have this to say.
1- Please refrain from comparing me to the rest of the people in this thread who kill allies. I have 4 chars. All 4 have SL over 100 and have been at that SL since a few days after the release of NC2. Since I said that up above, I can only assume that you didnt read all of my post.
2- Having harsher penalties will do nothing. All it will mean is that the person who might be killing you solo today will have a friend tomorrow. Guess what the friend is for. He's there to grab the belt or buff the guy who is killing you. What will you beg for then? Should his friend lose SL for helping him without ever attacking you?
3- I never called you a carebear. Stop putting words in my mouth. On the other hand, you would be crazy to say that some of the people who have posted in this thread are not just a little too sensitive to dying.
4- I just ran the crahn epic twice in the same day. I ran it on characters with no armor, no weapons and no spells. Not once was I attacked by anyone in DoY. Hell, I ran right by one of the biggest pk'rs I know of ingame and he didn't even bat an eye at me. I think you may be exaggerating, just a tad. Sure there are some people there who kill allies...they are everywhere...but getting killed stepping out of your door...someone has a vendetta against you.
5- An SL rework isnt going to fix anything. If it's balance you speak of, where is my benefit from having the highest SL you can get? Why don't I get a spare safe slot? Why doesn't city admin give me some type of award for being able to not shoot at someone? Does something need to be done to curb the allied pk? Sure, some other penalities, loss of experience would be great, but SL isnt going to fix it as long as they can run missions and return their SL back to normal.
You need to realize that interfact fighting is going to happen. The majority of the people who have left this game have left for reasons other than being killed by an ally. They are not even able to activate their accounts because of click2pay. I have 3 friends on aim who can't get in game and they desperatly want to do so. There are bugs that have been around for ages causing people to leave.
As you have no desire to talk to someone who's opinion differs from yours and you seem to want only people who share your beleifs to post in this thread, I guess I am done.
Jesterthegreat
14-12-04, 00:23
It wouldn't be so bad if NCAT weren't the biggest carebears of all. They run into plaza 1, kill a few newbies then run off to get their soul light back up when the shit hits the fan and a team of high level runners shows up to give them a good, honest fight.
That, and their leader *cough* has an agreement with a certain clan for them to "please not attack" him, meanwhile, the other members of his clan are free to do as they please.
harrassment again...
and yeah... im such a carebear :rolleyes:
First step for KK. Change missions again. They gotta be assigned to the one guy who takes em, i.e. you shouldnt be able to give the stuff to another char for him to do the mission then.
Its way too easy for PKers to get their SL up again that way. Just get another char to make the BPs, then run the missions. In a safezone where you cant get killed anyway. Thats just plain stupid.
I really wonder who the leader of ncat is, let alone he made some agree ment :x
Jesterthegreat
14-12-04, 21:42
I really wonder who the leader of ncat is, let alone he made some agree ment :x
the leader of ncat made an agreement?
dont make me search the thread to find what your talkin about :p
Dr Strange
14-12-04, 23:07
Please don't turn this into a clan-vs-clan trolling flame thread.
I realize KK never listens for the most part but theres always hope they might, and that won't be accomplished if the thread gets closed whilst you two argue over NCAT or whichever clan.
Little back on the topic theme weeks;
Of course I agree that SL and FS issue needs an overhaul but there are very many other things that need fixin. So why not have this "soullight theme week", but also make it a polishing week. Because there are far too many half-implemented features ingame as of now. Fixing the closed areas, drone-hud for DX7 and so on. As I see it the game have very many minor things witch the used player doesn't recognize, coz it's always been like that one thinks. MC5 needs a fix, balance tweaks are needed and so on.
Jesterthegreat
15-12-04, 01:05
That, and their leader *cough* has an agreement with a certain clan for them to "please not attack" him, meanwhile, the other members of his clan are free to do as they please.
the leaders of ncat have not played nc2 yet.
however you think you made a truce with you didnt.
oh and if this was me (Rincewind) talking to Buju Banton... i said i didnt lead ncat, i dont control ncat. i said cos i knew him i personally wouldnt attack his clan unless they attacked us / me.
didnt last long, and i never asked you to "please not attack me", it started with buju telling me (not asking) to stop attacking his clan. cos he's an old aquantence i agree'd on the aforsaid conditions.
Dr Strange
15-12-04, 05:36
*sigh*
Everyone please thank Trigger and Jester for the closure of this thread.
Can a mod/admin please lock the thread, it's starting to degenerate and I'd like the message to get across before the trolling/flaming between clans gets out of hand as usual.
*sigh*
Everyone please thank Trigger and Jester for the closure of this thread.
Can a mod/admin please lock the thread, it's starting to degenerate and I'd like the message to get across before the trolling/flaming between clans gets out of hand as usual.
Thanks jester (K)(L)
some good points but i gotta agree with jester, if we get a new sl system say with harsher penalties, people will just exploit it :o
pick a fight with someone and loose on purpose, get a hacker wating nearby..........you get the point :lol:
some good points but i gotta agree with jester, if we get a new sl system say with harsher penalties, people will just exploit it :o
pick a fight with someone and loose on purpose, get a hacker wating nearby..........you get the point :lol:
or just someone in team lol :P
Closed by thread starter.
N
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