View Full Version : The SAS
___T-X____
23-11-04, 10:34
http://img120.exs.cx/img120/6012/siege.gif
I noticed there has been a few references to the SAS in recent threads and I have a huge interest in them. So for those that are interested here's a link to when the SAS stormed the Iranian Embassy in 1980. I would recommend watching the Newsnight video also if you havent seenthis before
Clicky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2000/iranian_embassy_siege/intro.stm)
I have also read many books on them factual and fictional and would like to recommend a book called 'The Feather Men' by Sir Ranulph Fiennes.
http://img94.exs.cx/img94/5648/feather.jpg
In the years between 1977 and 1990, a group of hired assassins known as the Clinic tracked down and killed four British soldiers, one at a time. Two of the victims were ex-SAS. All four had fought in the Arabian desert.
The Feather Men were recruited to hunt the Clinic. Without their intervention more soldiers would have died. At the end of their operation they asked Ranulph Fiennes, one of the world's best-known explorers and himself a former SAS officer, to tell their extraordinary story.....
THE FEATHER MEN
is the first account of a secret group with SAS connections- still unacknowledged by the Establishment - who set out to achieve their own form of justice. And how, in September 1990, they finally got their result....
reviews of the book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688121349/104-0083035-7075177?v=glance)
Best read ever imo :p
I should give that a read, like you ive got a major interest in them too, im always arguing on vent with those dumb yanks who think Delta Force are better than the SAS :p
im always arguing on vent with those dumb yanks who think Delta Force are better than the SAS
One would have to first define "better", is it the success rate of missions or the quality of training and education. These are things where you can't merely say one is better than other, it's merely a matter of taste.
I for one don't think neither of them are any good, since they are both ofshoots of military and do military missions and have limited diplomatic immunity. I prefer special police force and if it must be military then it would be the commandos (Green berets and Royal Marines) the definition of better here is the fact that commandos are allready soldiers that meet high physical and intellectual requirements and are not "hired killers" as one could define SAS and DF, they are just military branches that go where they are not supposed to be i.e. covert ops that are high priority, commandos do the hard missions in areas of combat where the military is allready involved.
But like it is said, to each his own.
Dribble Joy
23-11-04, 17:59
Different roles for different situations.
In terms of endurance/combat proficiency/surviveability then SAS > marines/commandos in all likelyhood.
I wouldn't call SAS hired killers, though obviously thier role with wet-work is much higher. They usually do covert recce and sobotage missions that never come into contact with the enemy.
DF are trained (afaik) by the SAS anyway.
I think youll find that the SAS is a Tri-service recruiter that employs soldiers for various mission aspects from both covernt/insergency work to training and "hearts & minds". They all fall within the jurisdiction of the Army Act and are not "hired killers" - eg the trial of 3 SAS members carrying out anti-terrorist activities in Gibraltar.
Unlike other branches of the forces (ie the Booties for example) members of the SAS are chosen for the physical and mental abilities and are allowed a greater breadth of independance of action in comparison to other branches of the forces.
BTW - thanks TK a favoured author and an interesting subject ;)
I for sure wouldn't call the SAS, or any major special forces (SEALs, GIGN, b4 Spetznaz dissolved) hired killers. There simply the best soldiers form the armed forces, who receive specialist training for specialist tasks. And yeah DF are or were trained by SAS, and the original Rangers were trained at Arbroath by the Royal Marines. But I tell you what, i dont think there classed as special forces, but the ghurkas are great lol, i was watching this documentry, and a whole brigade of them were hidden in thise field, and you couldnt see a single one lol.
EDIT: Just orderd the book :p
___T-X____
23-11-04, 21:57
I think youll find that the SAS is a Tri-service recruiter that employs soldiers for various mission aspects from both covernt/insergency work to training and "hearts & minds". They all fall within the jurisdiction of the Army Act and are not "hired killers" - eg the trial of 3 SAS members carrying out anti-terrorist activities in Gibraltar.
Unlike other branches of the forces (ie the Booties for example) members of the SAS are chosen for the physical and mental abilities and are allowed a greater breadth of independance of action in comparison to other branches of the forces.
BTW - thanks TK a favoured author and an interesting subject ;)
Aswell as Gibraltar in a book called the Nemesis File its follows a team of SAS that were tasked to perform Executions/Hits at the height of the conflict in Ireland.
edit :/ Grats MkVenner, you wont put it down. BTW dont lend it out i lost 2 copies that way :p
I said "hired killers" because if the team is part of army and they do a mission on other nations soil they are doing a military act on them, and as usual this isn't what you can just do. Or can canadian military just hop in to usa and kill efw people and come back and usa will just let it slide?
Or how about Ireland sending some troops in to london to hijack some bus and driving it back to Ireland because the people on that bus were refugees or something? I oppose any military secial ops for a reason, commandos are not used unless there is a conflict in that country and the particular country (the one that uses commandos) is allready involved.
How can you people look up to people that are trained to kill and do that as a every day job (yes normal polices are trained to shoot and you can kill a man by shooting him, but you can clearly see the difference) is what I can't understand, they are terrorists, alltho they terrorize "the bad people" but it is still wrong. This is why I prefer police forces they need jurisdiction to act on other countires.
Example is some western special ops team goes to let's say asia to kill some politician they believe is in connection with terrorists (anti-terrorist action), you think this is right, yes?
Now some eastern special ops team comes to europe or usa to kill a politician they believe is endorsing a arms dealer to sell arms on the rebels in their country trying to overthrow their goverment, and you think this is terrorism, the wrong from wrong people is wrong, but wrong form right people is right?
Jeeze Magnolia you certainly have some issues, The "SAS" and all "special Operations" forces for the UK (Including the "SBS" - who are Marines and the "paras" (well they think their special :))) - all come under the Army rules and regulations and are bound by both British Law, Geneva convention and other binding rules, they are a military tool to be used by the Government, they do not act solely on their own initiative and do not make their own judgement calls. Rules of engagement apply to all their actions to precise it :-
They are authorised to use as much force (and no more) to deter or stop hostile actions against them. They are (usually) only allowed to return fire if directly threated or the safety and security of their charge is in direct threat, and then only to such an extent that the threat is neutralised.
To imply that they are hired killers or are arbitary assasins is incorrect - im sure that many countries have their own departments that deal with unsactioned killings. They carry out the orders of their superiors and the government - if you want to blame someone blame them. And youll find that every time that the SAS have acted on the UK mainland the police have officially <- yes officially handed over control of the situation over to the military to resolve.
To answer your question :-
"How can you people look up to people that are trained to kill and do that as a every day job "
I did this for 10 years of my life and am proud of it, many friends have been involved with both spec ops and the fight on terror and I belive without their influence and intervention some of us would not be here today with the ability to question the need for them.
Dont get misled by the miriad of books out there about all the "wet work" that the SAS do, would you rather a racy novel with lots of killing or stories of buffing shoes and boring nights on stag - take it with a pinch of salt.
and finally (yes I do go on)
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter
"How can you people look up to people that are trained to kill and do that as a every day job "
I did this for 10 years of my life and am proud of it
And I have issues? Yeah sure.
Look I'm very happy for you that you accept killing in this form and have a good night sleep after telling yourself lies about "terrorists" and "criminals", but the fact is that they do so much more than just act to enforce law, the sole purpose of such troops are just to carry out missions that police force nor normal military can't do (military action is allways hostile don't forget that).
Troops like Delta Force have fought guerilla war against druglords in another countrys soil (namely chile and columbia), deploying a military squad in another country is considered hostility agains the country and is prohibited by UN. Sas have had their fair share of the action aswell, there were some insident in Hong Kong some years back that ended in a book which got banned by british goverment and never got distributed.
"all come under the Army rules and regulations and are bound by both British Law, Geneva convention and other binding rules"
But they still have limited diplomatic immunity, why is that if they are binded by british laws (I tought british laws prohibited killing). Oh yes and that is in the case if they got caught :rolleyes:
"They are authorised to use as much force (and no more) to deter or stop hostile actions against them."
Even in the case of missions to assasinate/capture people their goverment dicates as criminals. The first 10 druglords and terrorists that come with us peacefully gets candy on our ride home on heli.
"Dont get misled by the miriad of books out there about all the "wet work" that the SAS do, would you rather a racy novel with lots of killing or stories of buffing shoes and boring nights on stag - take it with a pinch of salt."
To date I haven't read any fictional books with special ops in them. But there are some good books that are based on facts and I suggest that you read them, just like black hawk down (based on real events) and killing pablo (from same author as BHD). And maybe some day you too will see how real real life really is, dead people don't come back I'm sorry.
This thread is straying heavily into political territory. Try and keep politics out of the discussion or the it will have to be closed.
N
SAS a lot of info out there on them.
Ever heard of the SBS?
This is the Wet version as opposed to air, don't hear much of them and some people haven't even heard of them.
Covert operations are in there form a secret and the best kept secrets are not advertised to the public, so wonder why we dont hear much about SBS!
or the it will have to be closed.
or the it? :angel:
Dribble Joy
24-11-04, 16:14
SAS a lot of info out there on them.
Ever heard of the SBS?
SBS are just as much in the public eye as the SAS, they are just not as famous.
At the others in the thread, don't assume you know anything about anything unless you know everything about it.
You have nothing to go on except what is in the public domain.
Unless you are an ex-member and therefore are in breach of the things you have signed/agreed to.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter
Incorrect. Though it depends on what you define as terrorist ad freedom fighter.
It's in the name.
A terrorist uses blackmail/kidnappings/bombings and other forms of terror against anyone (specifically civilians) in order to achieve a specific goal (which could be anything).
A freedom fighter is someone who fights an oppressive regime and it's agents in persute of the removal of said regime and does not engage in the actions that would define himself as a terrorist. Ie. he does not target civilians, or conduct terror campaigns.
The lines are obvisously blurred in practice of course.
Sleep like a baby most nights - thanks for asking. Just one question (even though we are diverting from the real thread) - Magnolia are you from the UK and have you ever served? If you answer nay then your being blinded by not experiencing first hand these events - Get some in.
To intimate that Delta Ops and the SAS are one and the same is incorrect - as pointed out earlier in the thread both are differnet nations and differently run organisations - I speak from experience about my countries forces - I cannot say what others do.
If memory serves me BHD us about the americans overstepping their remit from the UN in Somalia and getting into a bun fight with a group of "freedom fighters" sorry terrorists, however much spin they wanted to put on it; it was still a gang f***.
I read more factual books try "Once a Warrior King" about the vietnam "police action", "The Shooting gallery", "DarkWater" (SBS) there are lots of good books out there on the factual work of the armed forces - and Im looking forward to getting my copy of "The Feather men", anyone know if Watterstones is doing it?
(Niddy - soz wont happen again :angel: )
Just to clear up some points.
"Magnolia are you from the UK and have you ever served?"
The answere is nay, but it still doesn't change the facts.
"To intimate that Delta Ops and the SAS are one and the same is incorrect"
Never said that they are one and same, I DO know that Delta Force is from USA and SAS is from UK. And I know that some american special ops are bit more "down dirty" than european/middle east/asian counterparts, but still it doesn't change the fact that they do military missions often in peaceful countries soil, military action on other country is invasion and should not happen no matter what the motives of the high command are.
"BHD us about the americans overstepping their remit from the UN in Somalia and getting into a bun fight with a group of "freedom fighters" sorry terrorists"
No, not terrorists, soldiers/militia of other country that were fighting off foreign invaders that tried to kill their leader (yes a warlord and opressor), it was a situation fight the invaders of be killed by your own. And some civilians that were on the same situation as the soldiers/militia.
Berty I wasn't just talking about SAS fyi, I was talking about all military special forces, I don't see them justified in any situation.
And to DJ "At the others in the thread, don't assume you know anything about anything unless you know everything about it."
Knowing everything about some of these events is impossible, was the gun fired out of fear or out of commands, what are the motives of the soldiers on the mission, and about the motives of the enemy. There are too much of these things to take consider, and you are right we only know the things that are on public knowledge, but they are enough for me to judge them on certain occasions. As for I don't think it is still right for western countries to send special ops to invade foreign countries and capture some druglord and kill few hundred of his "men" in the process (and btw didn't that allmost escalate to a war between cartels? = dead civilians as allways)
(disclaimer. this is an opinion, opinions may be discussed and debated but they can not be changed)
TBQH it does make a hell of a lot of difference Mag - you wont understand the ethos and restrictions placed on British forces or the respect that we in the UK hold for our forces - they are the best in the world.
Your answers show a naivity in why these groups of soldiers have been formed and how they are used - sometimes Special forces are needed for covert jobs - eg SAS infiltrated baghdad in 91 before war was declared - should they of been there, at the time Iraq was a peaceful country?
(of course my Opinion which wont get changed)
If you want to continue this PM me - as I grow bored with your replies.
Oh UK respects their armed forces, ah well then it makes the world of difference... nope, a great amount of palestinians respect their "soldiers" and some see them as terrorists. So in this case "ones terrorist is ones freedom fighter" is quite good phrase, as I see UK/USA and all other special forces as mercenaries that do their job with enthusiasm.
Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to change your opinion, I'm just discussing it.
And no, I won't PM you as I'm quite clear on your stand on the discussion and I'm sure you have your reasons for it so further "debate" on this matter is not neccessary, some people just don't get killing, in any form.
All people should burn and die a horrible death. Every living beeing in this fuckin world should end their pathetic lives. There's no point in anything except that everything has no point. Die everyone! NOW!
...that's just my personal opinion though, cannot be changed, and i wont bother myself by discussing it...
LOL, Im sure somebody begining with H had the same ideas - just glad we had an army and special forces to combat him rather than some piss poor police.
(OF course my humble opininon :rolleyes: )
___T-X____
25-11-04, 20:51
Whichever stand-point you take on operations carired out by your Special Forces, I can only comment on the factual evidence I have read. The SAS fascinates me, from the Sickener 1 & 2 in the selection, to the stag tours and tabbing for hundreds of miles to perform covert ops. These mens are forged in steel, not just physically, but the mental and physical torture they subject themselves too.
As the SAS says ' Many are called, few are chosen'
Guys let me know how you get on with the books i'd be interested to know your views and any books u may recommend. And Yes Waterstones have it in stock on Paperback normally :)
try the following (already mentioned but still radable):-
Once a Warrior King
Darkwater (SBS)
The Shooting Gallery
(I have more but their in the attic so will get them down sometime :))
Just remember saw ranulph on Top Gear - you have to admire a man who gets a heart bypass and the next month runs 10 marathons back to back - they surely bread them tough out of Hereford.
sbs were the people in dam busters in ww2
also that book the feathers one is bullshit hired assasins kill ex sas thats like killen a jedi pfft lol
Liebestoter
26-11-04, 12:34
.. are motherfucking badasses, I remember reading about some incident in Bosnia back in the 90's where three SAS operatives killed 48 Serbs with 48 bullets in under 45 seconds. Fucking insane.
Just remember saw ranulph on Top Gear - you have to admire a man who gets a heart bypass and the next month runs 10 marathons back to back - they surely bread them tough out of Hereford.
admire someone with a death wish O_O
admire someone with a death wish O_O
Yep, Hes one of the worlds last great adventurers, I think if he stopped and stayed at home he would probably die of boredom, as it is he is showing us the way forward by sticking 2 fingers (I think thats all hes got left on one hand :D) at convention.
SBS - Special Boat Squadron
617 Sqn RAF - The Dambusters
SBS - Special Boat Squadron
You made a typo there. SBS = Special Boat Service originally named as Special Boat Section.
Actualllllllllllllllly depends on what your refering to - It can be either Special Boat Service or the Special Boat Squadrons within that Service, but as an ex-military man that has served under a tri-service banner I refer to them as a squadron rather than a service.
Special Boat Section is the Dutch equivalent of the Uk's SBS.
I was mearly pointing out that the differnece between the SBS and 617 Sqn for silkk benefit.
lol prolly another dam film oh well
Aye, cant wait for it to come out on the "best of war movies" DVD -
for a cookie anyone remember the name of the dog that got run over?
Cliffraiser
27-11-04, 19:47
Special Boat Section is the Dutch equivalent of the Uk's SBS.
do we "the netherlands" even have anything worthy of mentioning special forces whise? i thought the only good thing we had better then most countries was our air force and navy to a certain degree. for the rest were just a bunch of peacekeepers and would get fucked to bits of we went to war with for instance germany :o
thats what i thought :P
You have Amsterdam, you need nothing else.
Cliffraiser
27-11-04, 20:43
true true :D
The Netherlands have various special forces units:-
Bijzondere Bijstandseenheid Krijgsmacht - The Duth RMP Swat :)
The Korps Kommando Tropen - The Dutch Armys equivalent of the SAS
;)
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