View Full Version : This a good idea to fix stealth?
Give the user 4-6% impairment after the stealth is done stealthing him. Much like a droner gets, when he blows up a drone.
?
Brain-farts rule.
Seems like kind of a sledge-hammer nerf to me. Thats pretty harsh for spies. They get one chance to escape or they are toast. I think I would enjoy playing my spy even less than I already do now :(
needs a little work but i see where your coming from, maybe a 5 second wait or something after each stealth
Switch-Blade
15-11-04, 20:41
When stealth modules were first introduced it did say there would be an impairment for using it but was never brought into being.
I thought there was a short period where they did give impairment and i remember gettin drugflash from overuse once upon a time lol.
On the short time ones maybe a highish impair
heading less and less down the tl to the Oblit which should have like 1% since your gonna be stealthed for a long time lol
Dribble Joy
15-11-04, 21:02
Hmmm... remember that it won't stop people simply deciding to quit a fight when they want, the problem is the start of the stealth more than the end of it.
An oblit/stealth3 with this feature will still allow a spy to flick an LE swith when he wants.
Disturbed21
15-11-04, 22:20
4-6% Impairment?
Umm, so a Spy could stealth then become a sitting duck?
Maybe more drugflash (although I haaaate drugflash) or a 3-4 second delay inbetween stealths, but no to SI.
Specifically SI for that reason.
It'd relieve the whoring of "Stealth - then just simply shoot again".
It'd leave him paralysed, and he'd HAVE to run.
Either SI or nothing. (because I make the rules in this thread and I rule everything)
Disturbed21
15-11-04, 22:22
lol, then you might as well just remove the damn thing from the game if your going to take this approach.
bad idea
Either SI or nothing. (because I make the rules in this thread and I rule everything)
nothing then - you lose
think first - laugh later
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Too funny.
Jake Cutter
15-11-04, 23:40
I say no to synaptic impairment.
If you want a very short delay before stealth can be used again, that's worth considering.
Personally, I think it should be left as it is.
Regards,
Jake Cutter
QuantumDelta
15-11-04, 23:47
Just give the tool a warm up and cool down time.
When he warms up, he's covered in a bright blue aura for a couple of seconds (4-5).
When it cools off, a Red aura shows for a couple of seconds (1-2).
Time is varied on how much TC and which tool is being used.
Stealthers can be shot whilst this period of charge is happening.
_DURING THIS PERIOD OF CHARGE ALL PSYCHIC POWERS FOREIGN OR SELF CAST ARE REMOVED_.
I think that things will remain as we know now and focus on real current troubles or future ideas.
I still remember when KK started to nerf apus and other features that we lost many many players
I dont have an spy, but... I would like to play with a rule that get changed and change my way of playing and kill my fun :(
Its my oppinion...
Huh?
Whats the problem with it? :S
When poeple are stealthed they can't hurt you.... lol... they run away... onoz!
Stealth should stay as is.
Brain fart or not, it's a bad idea in my opinion.
Sure, I'm biased because I've played a spy for nearly 2 years, but like I said, it's my opinion.
You'd kill off anyone playing a spy with something like this, I can see it already. Yay for more nerfs. :rolleyes:
Yeah.
Stealth *really* needs a nerf becuase now it's goddamn Spyocron and all the sheep deleted their monkehs and tankehs and created massively overpowered spies who are pwning the entire server...
Oh. Wait ...
:rolleyes:
SigmaDraconis
16-11-04, 07:34
wait sorry..Here I was thinking the spies intended playstyle was guerilla tactics and sniping, my bad.
I don't see the need, any spy using less than 3 drugs is still extremely weak compared to everyone else (on par with an APU I think whilst drugging for shelter). 4-5 seconds "warm-up" at the BEGINING of the stealth is just plain retarded imo. on the other hand a 5+ second delay between stealths isnt a bad idea. If you remove stealthbreaker drugs and make the higher TL stealths have LESS delay it would balance stealth whoring (both sneaking up on people at yur convenience, and running endlessly with no chance of being caught).
I think 8 second delay for Stealth 1, 5 for stealth 2 and 3 for stealth 3, none for OBL is a good place to start, this way without drugs you always have to wait for yur stealth to wear before jumping someone, and lower TL stealth tools are less effective than higher TL tools, not better for stealth whoring around ppl, and OBL is meant for running for your life and ONLY that. On top of that, if you can stealth away to heal up and rebuff, and you have to wait the remainder of your stealth to attack again, it gives the victim a fair chance to recover as-well.
[EDIT] just to clarify, by delay I simply mean a reactivation delay, I think all weapons should be usable as normal during the wait period. Making a spy visible but defensless at ANY time is way too much of a nerf.
Yeah.
Stealth *really* needs a nerf becuase now it's goddamn Spyocron and all the sheep deleted their monkehs and tankehs and created massively overpowered spies who are pwning the entire server...
Oh. Wait ...
:rolleyes:
lol, seriously.
people who say stealthing takes no skill, well... uh, it takes 80 or more points in tech combat of skill
hrhr
um, maybe a tiny adjustment would be needed, but a nerf? Not needed.
Bugs Gunny
16-11-04, 10:29
I no longer have a stealthing combat char, but i see no problem with stealth as it is.
You can kill a stealther. Slap on a heal, db, poison, shock etc...
plasma and aoe weapons take em down easy.
They are sometimes anoying, but nothing more.
Using stealth need some kind of skills:
1) You need to spend "some" points on the right skill, points that other class can use on other task.
2) You need personal skills to play a spy and cloak and decloak at the right time to atack or run.
On the other side, the spy is...
1) Too weak
2) Needs too many drugs... usually
3) Spies hacks and get unprotected for some time
On the side of the attacked:
1) AOE - weapons
2) AOE - drones
3) PPUs can "mark" the spies with damage booster and ppl just need to wait till stealth time runs out
4) And... of course skills using other weapons, I have killed spies in a 1vs1 combat and died and always was a fun.
The main trouble (I think) is that the spies should have a more active rol on... spying, I mean, the stealth tool is a operative weapon to do cover actions, more on the line of the spy.
I talk a lot with some spies (dont know if this is the right word for plural of spy) and the pistol ones tell me that they need to be completely drugged to be effective and the snippers that they need so many points on weap lore and rifle than sometimes doesnt have enough for other good skills.
I think they need stealth... as is, I hope that if KK make some change dont make the spy player run away the game.
i think stealth is fine. Yea, they stealth away and you can't kill them...you still won.
Give the user 4-6% impairment after the stealth is done stealthing him. Much like a droner gets, when he blows up a drone.
?
Brain-farts rule.
Yes and give a Monk 1% synap after each use of his spell. Why, cause he useing his mental abilities, so surely he should be punnished for using his tools.
Tanks, take a hit cause those weapons are heavy, and we all know how heavy stuff hurts
WTF are you on, if you stealth too much on stealth 1, you already get a drug flash / fuzzy screen.
If you take to much stealth breaker you already get drug flash / fuzzy screen
Spies only have element of surprise
Monks have Either GOD MODE on, or hits you a few time you dead, Tanks have best resists and powerfull weapons. PE's have a balance.... So why nerf stealth ?????
The weakest class, and you want to make them weaker.
Yeah.
Stealth *really* needs a nerf becuase now it's goddamn Spyocron and all the sheep deleted their monkehs and tankehs and created massively overpowered spies who are pwning the entire server...
Oh. Wait ...
:rolleyes:
Indeed.
It's not broken so it doesn't need a "fix".
QuantumDelta
16-11-04, 20:23
Stealth is broken.
It can be abused by spies, and, always could be, abused by spies, in exactly, the same fashion as PEs did.
The actual _problem_ should be addressed, I think?
Stealth is broken.
It can be abused by spies, and, always could be, abused by spies, in exactly, the same fashion as PEs did.
The actual _problem_ should be addressed, I think?
Lots of things can be "abused" if you change the definition to suit your needs. Do you want to remove every item in the game?
Kinda see his point though
Pe's got it taken away cause they over used it, spies do now, everytime you get close they stealth, stealth II as most use as a basic i think is plenty to run a decent distance and dmg boost dosen't always show on em.
There's infiltration and escape but well setup pistol spies take a good beating anyway can dance around with a slasher or exe pretty fast and exe and slasher are mad dmg then they stealth when they nearly die?
at times their more unkillable than a ppu cuz they just stealth, stealth stealth and a little more stealth and various lags and bugs help them escape
it shouldn't be a get out of fight free card more a observation tool or a suprise attack or relocation tool n if the clip plane was larger i really doubt snipers would need it full stop
Disturbed21
16-11-04, 23:29
Kinda see his point though
Pe's got it taken away cause they over used it...
PEs got it taken away because they never needed it. Who's going to last longer in a fight without stealth, a PE or a Spy? :p
But while I wouldn't say stealth is broken, I will say it could use a slight alteration. No si or something silly like that, but perhaps a 4-5 sec cool-down period after one use where you cannot use stealth.
yay.. hooray for getting stealthwhoring out of game
Ozambabbaz
16-11-04, 23:50
yay.. hooray for getting stealthwhoring out of game
only if heal-whoring/shelter-whoring/deflector-whoring/HL-whoring/para-whoring gets teh whup too :o
PEs got it taken away because they never needed it. Who's going to last longer in a fight without stealth, a PE or a Spy? :p
Well i found my chars didnt have much apart defense wise in the end, both were hurt pretty bad by the level of attack and spies can get near pe defense with drugs and setups.
My pe needed it to escape at times which is why i went to low tech, cuz i became so dependent on it to survive it was stupid, if i died then it was due to stupidity, trying to take to much on etc etc
I think thats a slendid idea
Lots of things can be "abused" if you change the definition to suit your needs. Do you want to remove every item in the game?
What kind of a dumbass semantic bullshit sentence is that? :wtf:
I know you spies love it the easy way (in fact, I'm a rifle spy myself, using stealth III going on Obliterator - I love the stealth, saved my ass from dying horrible deaths as I should have died), but if stealth is fine the way it is, why don't we just re-introduce it to PE's then?
It's perfectly fine to stealth away every second, without any reprecussions (don't even talk about retarded stealthbreakers - there is only ONE use to them, and that's only in specific moments). God forbid you were actually FORCED to have some skill, aside from stealthing when your hlt drops a few points.
But no "ooooooooohhhhhhhhh PE's are not weak as spies whaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaa" - bullshit. It may take a few extra hits, but the overall result is the same. In a one on one fight, the PE would have the edge of not using it at the exact same moment the spy does, but in a group ganbang/AOE gangbang against a stealth PE - it doesn't really make that much of a difference. Especially now when hitting legs creates the exact same gap of slow-movement. Why shouldn't PE's get it back then if stealth is so normal?
Oh wait, I know why. BECAUSE STEALTH IS BROKEN. The _only_ reason it was taken from the PE's is because Stealth itself is fucked, and doesn't give a good balance ratio to negative effects/positive effects. Hence, probably because it HAS no negative effects. PE's owned with it in the exact same manner Spies own with it (good spies - the ones that DO NOT get killed, because they know how to play).
Now, STFU on werther it is or isn't broken - it's perfectly CLEAR that it shouldn't work the way it does.
Question is how to fix it.
If you want to talk about how it _shouldn't_ be fixed, go find (or create) yourself another thread.
kthxbye
Also - good possible solutions from some of the people who managed to hold an opinion of their own. [
Thanks a lot for posting your thoughts.
StealthyAssassi
17-11-04, 02:05
at times their more unkillable than a ppu cuz they just stealth, stealth stealth and a little more stealth and various lags and bugs help them escape
What am I doing wrong? I get a 2 seconds cooldown on my stealth, because I have to draw the tool again and then it takes some time to use.
And also, I dont care about spies being "more unkillable" than a ppu, because they CAN NOT make everyone else around themselves "more unkillable" too!
edit: I dont see many spies at OP fights, but ... right ... thats because stealth is too powerfull and they are invinsible/invincible all the time :rolleyes:
Freaky Fryd
17-11-04, 02:50
Hence, probably because it HAS no negative effects.
It's already been stated that it does...
Unless things have changed from NC1, you will get drugflash from stealthing too often. It's really noticable with Stealth 1, but with Stealth 2 you won't really notice it until it starts compounding with a drugflash you have already.
Go stand in a True Sight Sanctum and just keep stealthing. You should have a drug flash quite quickly...
What an utter bunch of nonsense. I have become so tired of these kind's of threads just looking to gimp whatever class that person is annoyed at that day. Spies are the weakest characters in the game and you're looking to nerf one of the few advantages they have. If you can't find and kill a stealthing spy, then perhaps you need more practice because I know plenty of people that can do it includng myself. How about we focus on issues that are really wrong with the game, huh?
*shrug*
I never had a problem with PEs using the stealth tools - never really got why some people had such a bug up their ass about it.
As far as BlackDove's foaming at the mouth rantette ...
still very much :rolleyes:
You do have a tendency to spout enormous amounts of bollocks at times.
The only consistent argument across all the many stealth-whine threads that we've had since it's inception has been:-
"ONOZ ! Some inconsiderate bastard won't just stand there like a fucking lemon and get assraped by UBER MEEEEE !!!!"
The same tired old lazy ass shit is being parroted here.
Again.
Why not come back and try again with a *real* reason when the petulant hissy fit fades ?
"ONOZ ! Some inconsiderate bastard won't just stand there like a fucking lemon and get assraped by UBER MEEEEE !!!!"
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QuantumDelta
17-11-04, 03:33
Kurai:
Although BD may not be the best person to term things like that, he is quite correct.
I note that you didn't deny that, either.
Stealth with it's near-instant (And I swear that's just lag) on, and instant re-availability is annoying, to anyone.
Stealth-Heal-Stealth-Heal.
Dist:
Erm, Dude, Do you know anything...about spies?
Back to Stealth:
I like the idea of stealth, I liked it was going spy only, at the time, most spies used it sparingly compared to PEs, now they use it the same way PEs did, except with Stealth II.
I haven't actually checked it recently;
Is Truth Sight Sanct still utterly 6m. radiusishly useless for finding op war stealthers?
The big problem with stealth, I think, is there is no /real/ counter for it, again, only 'exploits' ('work arounds') which allow you to track a stealther, which in itself is as annoying as hell for a stealther anyway.
All of the above, should really be fixed.
I note that you didn't deny that, either. What part of "enormous amounts of bollocks " do you feel doesn't represent a rejection of his general theory ?
If there's some specific item in his rambling 350 word post that you think I sidestepped then please define your that more clearly so I can respond usefully.
You've stated yourself that you think the stealthing is simply "annoying" ... forgive me if I don't find that a compelling reason to fall down dead at your feet and offer my corpse to cushion your mighty footsteps from the harsh ground.
The Stealth-Heal-Stealth-Heal argument is also bogus.
What exactly is stopping *you* healing while I am stealthed and can't do a fucking thing to you ?
You *could* even use that extra time after a half second cast to AoE the area where my COMPLETELY VISIBLE heal bubbles are rising from and there's *nothing* I could do to stop it.
Really - come up with a rationale other than "a bit of an irritation" that I can take seriously.
Spies are the weakest characters in the game and you're looking to nerf one of the few advantages they have.
lol
Thats down to setups, my pistol gave any other class a good fight and lot of the times would win, drugs, decent con and high tl weapons, run castin healing, as far as 1v1 went i was on par with with most in terms of defense and i'd even say i was dealin very high dmg compared to some classes.
Was a-lot easier to aim a pistol and keep it locked and rifles weren't so hard either, it's not an advantage at all its just your almost portable gr out the fight tool.
Executioner i found to rip tanks apart and apus and slasher just went through everything
What am I doing wrong? I get a 2 seconds cooldown on my stealth, because I have to draw the tool again and then it takes some time to use.
And also, I dont care about spies being "more unkillable" than a ppu, because they CAN NOT make everyone else around themselves "more unkillable" too!
edit: I dont see many spies at OP fights, but ... right ... thats because stealth is too powerfull and they are invinsible/invincible all the time "
Like pressin the qbelt number is hard? As hard as hittin a psi booster or changing to heal.
You dont see spies because people prefer to follow the trend combos, melee, apu and hc, why people are convinced spies are weak, sensible snipers wont be anywhere near the op and pistol spies with PPU support are hard but most stealth about on their own away from ppus.
When drones where overpowered (or should i say when holy shelter wasnt widely used) there was barely a day without seeing PB20 Particle Beam Drone in local and every was pretty much a tank or hyb, then hybs got nerfed and suddenly whordes of apu/ppus appeared tanks got glued and energy was crap against shelters so them and everything else slowly died as apu/ppu combo dominated the field.
Melee was a leveling tool till it got overpowered and now everyone is melee or apu with a few more hcs poppin up due to recent changes.
Point being everyone likes the easy minimal work route which melee,hc, apu and ppu is providing Spies and Pe's to some extent require thought to playing
The First Love, SH, HL are high dmg weapons, the EXE and Slasher are high dmg weapons and the options are there to put yourself on par with ppl if your prepared to work at it.
But you dont cuz you have stealth and feel no need to bother defense wise cuz if it gets iffy you stealth away and come back a little later healed as pe's used to....
Pe's got it taken away cause they over used it
PEs never should have had it. That was a design screw-up and got fixed. Using it as an excuse to remove it from it's intended users is wrong.
if the clip plane was larger i really doubt snipers would need it full stop
True.
What kind of a dumbass semantic bullshit sentence is that? :wtf:
It's a lot less dumb that the one it responded to or most of the suggestions in this thread.:rolleyes:
Stealth is working as intended. KK even nerfed the high-end models to make it work more this way than any other.
Why is it only PEs that start this particular brand of "nerf that cos I can't do it" threads? Funny how they were happy about it when they could use it.:wtf:
If people can't setup PEs properly - tough shit play another class. Don't confuse other issues with your failings.
trigger hurt
17-11-04, 05:35
To be honest, stop with the "nerf this guy, he killed me" threads. it's been discussed time and time again. There are methods to tracking and killing a stealthed spy.
Personally, I don't want to make my spy "near pe". I made a spy, cause i want a fucking spy. If I wanted to have tank defenses, I'd make a tank. If I wanted pe defenses, i'd make a pe.
PE's are absolutly easy to setup and they get the best damage on a shelter bar ppu and hybrid. What about them needs a stealth device? They have their fallback. It's the con and buffs. So, now you are telling me that I should get rid of stealth and not use it when I need to escape and I should pop 5 drugs and use shelter to be able to fight? Fuck that.
I am not obligated, in any way, to die for you. If you didn't kill me before I stealthed, the problem is on your end, not with stealth.
It's a lot less dumb that the one it responded to or most of the suggestions in this thread.:rolleyes:
Stealth is working as intended. KK even nerfed the high-end models to make it work more this way than any other.
Why is it only PEs that start this particular brand of "nerf that cos I can't do it" threads? Funny how they were happy about it when they could use it.:wtf:
If people can't setup PEs properly - tough shit play another class. Don't confuse other issues with your failings.
Your sentence before (the one with the wild "omg you can hax with everything)
a) Didn't make any sense
b) Was wrong
c) Was stupid (to a very high degree)
I think we both know that.
Also, of course I didn't bitch about stealth when we had it. I was able to be just as overpowered (note: You need to know how to play a spy to be overpowered - getting any kind of hlt drop unless you're being gangbanged means you can't play) as the spies are now. At least then, PE's had a good chance to fight like spies in a way (I used Stealth 1 tho). It was awesome, but yes, this was a huge benefit for us, which shouldn't have happened.
However - I would rather take a nerf on the stealth tool and have it re-introduced to the PE's again, than have the spies whoring it off as if it's just normal that there are no negative after-effects.
Also, the next person that says "OMG DRUGFLASH FROM USING IT AFTER SIXTY TIMES" - doesn't know how to fucking play - k?
Mild to medium drugflash is NOTHING if you can
a) play
b) JUST SIMPLY STEALTH AGAIN!!!
Stealth needs negative effects - and I want it back on the PE's personally. Be it SI or power up/down time.
Enough whoring. It wasn't taken from the PE's for nothing.
... stop with the "nerf this guy, he killed me" threads...A big part of the point I am trying to get across is that this *isn't* what most of the complainers whine about.
The majority are variations on "nerf this guy, he didn't kill me. He just annoyed me a little bit"
It's taken a mighty act of self restraint not to just fill my replies with pages of " :rolleyes: "
Your sentence before (the one with the wild "omg you can hax with everything)
a) Didn't make any sense
b) Was wrong
c) Was stupid (to a very high degree)
No. It was 100% accurate. You can (or could) "exploit" with almost anything in this game. If you can't see that you need to open your eyes.
/edit - also I've never used the word "hax". What I said was "Lots of things can be "abused" if you change the definition to suit your needs" - note the second part and think about it for a minute. Throwing accusatory words around without basis makes you look a fool.
However - I would rather take a nerf on the stealth tool and have it re-introduced to the PE's again,Ah, there's the crux of it - would you like a holy heal and a CS while you're at it?
than have the spies whoring it offUse words that make sense please.
as if it's just normal that there are no negative after-effects.It has negative effects DURING use - no heal, no buffs, you can't shoot back while taking damage, heavy drug usage.
I want it back on the PE's personally. Exactly my point - get your own toys and stop crying that you "lost" one you never should have had.
It wasn't taken from the PE's for nothing.As has been said many times - it was never meant for PEs. KK didn't think it through at first and fixed the oversight.
Disturbed21
17-11-04, 05:50
/begin QD rant
Do you even play this game? Last I heard you didn't, maybe you do now, yet you always seem to know whats best for everyone :rolleyes: no matter if you're actively playing or not. You always seem to have the answers to everything while nooone else knows anything. And of course you always think you do. Your responses are typically "you know nothing about xxxx" so nah nah nah. I just don't like someone saying "you know nothing, but I know everything, blah blah blah."
Now I actually agreed with you and everyone else in this thread that said Stealth should be altered in some way, as of right now it has no real penalty. But instead of seeing that you decided to attack my knowledge of spies :rolleyes: shows what you are really interested in. You don't know me, so don't pretend like you do by directing some halfassed comment towards me. I can say @QD do you know anything... too, but it really means nothing *shrug* I think I'm done with my rant, thanks.
/end rant
On the topic,while I do admit you often do have very good points on a variety of subjects involving NC, this time however, I think you just have something against stealthing. Whatever you think I don't know about spies (because I'm not you :p ) I do know that while stealthed you cannot use any weapons, or spells. While it may be annoying to the people trying to kill the stealther, thats all it is. Annoying. Doesn't make you invincible, just invisible. You can still be damaged and followed.
Do you play a stealthing spy btw? Is it your primary character? Have you ever had 2 APUs, 2 PPUs and a tank chasing you around? If you do then you know its not like you hit the stealth button and some how you can win a fight. All it does is make you disappear for awhile. You get to run away and heal or rebuff, while the opponent gets the chance to do the same thing. Its an escape button as some would say.
With the right tools it is easy to kill a stealthing spy, annoying as it may be. I have been on both ends, trying to kill a stealther and trying to run away as a stealther. Anything larger than a 2-3 second cool down period or warm up period is pure and simple death. But I can see the need gamewise to have a slight alteration.
No. It was 100% accurate. You can (or could) "exploit" with almost anything in this game. If you can't see that you need to open your eyes.
Ah, there's the crux of it - would you like a holy heal and a CS while you're at it?
Use words that make sense please.
It has negative effects DURING use - no heal, no buffs, you can't shoot back while taking damage, heavy drug usage.
Exactly my point - get your own toys and stop crying that you "lost" one you never should have had.
As has been said many times - it was never meant for PEs. KK didn't think it through at first and fixed the oversight.
a) No you can't. Cut the crap please.
b) No thanks. I don't play H-C, nor do I want to spec for Holy Heal if it was even somehow possible.
c) I do
d) That's not a negative effect - you've just pulled that one out of your ass. We are all talking about the same standard stealth, which has always rendered you unable to do anything while activated.
Reaching for straws is a bad habit.
e) I don't care what KK thinks, or what they thought. If you're going to be obeying everything they think up, I think you ought to be happy with the game as it is now. After all, that's what they think of it, since it is that way. Bullshit.
Also, Stealth tools were used by tanks and monks respectively. Remember that? "Get my own tools" - laff
Nuff said.
On the topic,while I do admit you often do have very good points on a variety of subjects involving NC, this time however, I think you just have something against stealthing. Whatever you think I don't know about spies (because I'm not you :p ) I do know that while stealthed you cannot use any weapons, or spells. While it may be annoying to the people trying to kill the stealther, thats all it is. Annoying. Doesn't make you invincible, just invisible. You can still be damaged and followed.
Do you play a stealthing spy btw? Is it your primary character? Have you ever had 2 APUs, 2 PPUs and a tank chasing you around? If you do then you know its not like you hit the stealth button and some how you can win a fight. All it does is make you disappear for awhile. You get to run away and heal or rebuff, while the opponent gets the chance to do the same thing. Its an escape button as some would say.
With the right tools it is easy to kill a stealthing spy, annoying as it may be. I have been on both ends, trying to kill a stealther and trying to run away as a stealther. Anything larger than a 2-3 second cool down period or warm up period is pure and simple death. But I can see the need gamewise to have a slight alteration.
Err just a question - was that directed to QD or to me? I can break that point by point in a civil manner, but if it wasn't adressed to me, then I don't want to.
Also, the whole first part of your post reeks of jealousy for someone who is obviously superior to you in a) thought, and more importantly b) experience when it comes to this game. Not a pretty sight.
[ edited ]
a) It's not crap - check my edit above and please engage brain. We've had REAL exploits in this game featuring almost every class of item. Using stealth is not an exploit - if it were it would have gone into the recent update to the rules page.
b) If there was a bug whereby non-PPUs could use it for a day I'm certain we'd be getting threads for years after demanding it back and accusing PPUs of exploiting by using it. It's the same everytime KK miss something like this - Kamis without reqs, self-cast psi-boost, etc. etc.
c) Explain who is paying people to use stealth then
d) How is it reaching for straws to state the facts. If you can use heal or a gun while stealthed you should email exploits@ ASAP and tell them how.
e) I don't live in a world of black and white. I would think it was obvious I don't agree with everything KK do and say. I don't ask them to restore bugs they have fixed though.
What I'd really like to know is why all the PEs that want stealth don't just roll a spy. We're (almost) all on a 4-char server now after all.
Disturbed21
17-11-04, 11:39
Err just a question - was that directed to QD or to me? I can break that point by point in a civil manner, but if it wasn't adressed to me, then I don't want to.
Nope wasn't really directed to you.
Also, the whole first part of your post reeks of jealousy for someone who is obviously superior to you in a) thought, and more importantly b) experience when it comes to this game. Not a pretty sight.
No jealousy there, just don't like it when ppl respond to someones posts with nothing constructive. So I felt I needed to rant a bit. *shrug* see it how you want to. And I also don't like it when ppl make silly assumptions about someones experience in the game based on their join date, which I'm guessing you did. (For some reason I couldn't tie my orginal user name to my NC2 account, so I had to get a different account). Join date and Post #'s mean nothing to me. I think my orginal join date was around Sept-Dec 02. I've been around long enough to know that my comments to QD will fall on deaf ears, he'll probably respond with something like "I am one of only a few people that know anything about how things should go in this game and everyone else is either an asshat or stupid" or something like that.
His arrogance just annoys me I guess, or I may have just been in a real pissy mood. Either way my point was not to insult him, just to have him say something constructive or nothing at all.
[ edited ]
Can we get back on topic now?
Liebestoter
17-11-04, 12:11
Spy stealths.
Blast blue blur with CS.
Spy dies.
Problem solved.
I see nothing wrong with stealth, especially in light of PPU + APU teams running among, diving headfirst into the asses of all those foolish enough to oppose them and then eating their way out. And let's not even talk about melee.
StealthyAssassi
17-11-04, 12:22
Spy stealths.
Blast blue blur with CS.
Spy dies.
Problem solved.
note: You need to know how to play a spy to be overpowered - getting any kind of hlt drop unless you're being gangbanged means you can't play
Well then the Spy you just blasted isnt one of those ubar PPU spies BD seems to be talking about. Must have been a newbie. :rolleyes: !SARCASTIC!
Bugs Gunny
17-11-04, 12:29
Stelath is allready with consequences. If you pull the stealth tool it takes a fewseconds before it works. and all the other ways to track a stealther.
I've killed one when he was running in water with cs.
Stealther spies are not a problem.
And no i no longer play a stealther spy, since it's a lot more fun to play a hc tank.
Liebestoter
17-11-04, 12:34
Yeah.. I really don't see the issue here. Maybe if we saw some visible damage numbers from unloading on the said blue blur we'd feel better. Heh.
Also, Stealth tools were used by tanks and monks respectively. Remember that?
Just noticed that gem - When? 90 DEX on a monk my arse. 60 INT and 90 DEX on a tank - not without Crescent Tabs and no combat skills.
Stealth does not need to be nerfed to the extent of having SI .... that's way too ridiculous of a change. Stealth is fine as it is because no-one has thought of anything better to balance it.
I've had my stealth drop so many times due to a True Sight Sanctum which sometimes you don't notice. That's a counter measure for stealthing. So many DoY raids have been very fun when you've got PPUs using true sight sanctum and you've got this finite window to do something.
As for buffs, spies have to drug up to use a shelter ..... a spy with fully capped PSI can only use Spy Boost 1, Rifle/Pistol Combat 1, Deflector and Basic Resist Booster 2 ..... that's only provides very little resist ..... not enough to be even close to uber.
If you want to combat stealth I'd suggest another PPU spell that is slightly different to a true sight sanctum. It should have longer range but with a very short duration and a large psi power use..... for example twice/three times the range but only at 10 seconds and taking like 100 PPW. Just a suggestion :p
Besides most people are annoyed at the fact that a stealthing spy can be standing right beside them and not know it. Also people are annoyed that spies disappear when near death .... damaging a spy isn't a hard thing to do considering 2 or 3 clean Holy Lightning/Cursed Soul/Ravager/Fire Apoc hits/bursts will literally slow down an unsheltered spy.
I've yet to have read any convincing arguments why nerfing stealth is a good thing or anything good suggested. Its not like spending 3-5 seconds re-activating your steath tool after it de-stealths is enough :rolleyes:
Freaky Fryd
17-11-04, 14:10
Just noticed that gem - When? 90 DEX on a monk my arse. 60 INT and 90 DEX on a tank - not without Crescent Tabs and no combat skills.
Back when MC5 chips were requirement-free, I had a setup worked out for a stealthing tank and minimal drugs...
:D
Back when MC5 chips were requirement-free, I had a setup worked out for a stealthing tank and minimal drugs...
:D
Ah OK, didn't think of that :o . Still that would have only been for all of about two weeks due to a bug. Even then it would have been gimptastic.
Even then it would have been gimptastic.
Haha I'm gonna start using that ..... everytime a nerf patch comes along ... its gonna be "Gimptastic!!!" :lol: :lol:
Jesterthegreat
17-11-04, 22:12
needs a little work but i see where your coming from, maybe a 5 second wait or something after each stealth
use time would be best, reuse time would be my second choice
:edit: a time between clicking and it woring i mean... nmot the "use time" it has now that just requires someone to kieep the tool out
I think stealth is fine the way it is....As people have said before. That ability is the defining factor of a spy. Sniping is great but if you miss or your damage doesn't pretty much outright kill the guy, a spy is usually screwed and must run. With a tank or apu it's pretty much engage till your hearts content:). Stealthing is meant to be like it is.
Jesterthegreat
17-11-04, 22:37
I think stealth is fine the way it is....As people have said before. That ability is the defining factor of a spy. Sniping is great but if you miss or your damage doesn't pretty much outright kill the guy, a spy is usually screwed and must run. With a tank or apu it's pretty much engage till your hearts content:). Stealthing is meant to be like it is.
no a spy with a poor con / armour / imp setup is screwed... there are plenty of well setup combat spies.
if you want to go snipe (IE use a weapon) you should spec for a combat setup. or if you choose not to then pay the price (lower defence)
and none of us can say how stealth was "meant to be" unless we work for KK or have access to leaked information. and im sure none of the people on personal account would want to admit to either
no a spy with a poor con / armour / imp setup is screwed... there are plenty of well setup combat spies.
What i tried to say heh
Spies aren't as weak as they were when ppl didnt know bout setups and their weps werent great in dmg, many spies these days take some good degree of punishment
no a spy with a poor con / armour / imp setup is screwed... there are plenty of well setup combat spies.
if you want to go snipe (IE use a weapon) you should spec for a combat setup. or if you choose not to then pay the price (lower defence)If sniping were truly viable (other than in areas where people can't reach you easily - which we WERE told was an exploit, unlike the play-style some people (read: PEs) like to brand as an exploit) I'd maybe agree wrt rifle spies but it isn't so I don't.
By "truly viable" I don't mean that anyone you target can see (and most can target) you as easily as you can see them and that they can cover the distance between you in under 3 seconds which amounts to 1-2 server refreshes and is less than the time it takes to fire enough rounds to kill them.
none of us can say how stealth was "meant to be" unless we work for KK or have access to leaked information. and im sure none of the people on personal account would want to admit to eitherEven with KK you can read between the lines a bit. Although you surely cannot be certain what their intent is the current implementation and the changes made to achieve it certainly offer some hints. Remember that they shortened the durations, not lengthened them and they reduced the requirements to make it easier to use on more silly character setups (eg the half-assed PE wannabe ones).
If people really want a change to stealth to add more "skill" to it's use then remove the drugs and add a small random element to the duration. That way if you can't predict when it will expire you have to be a lot better/luckier to react when it does drop if you aren't clear of the action. Those that are using it to spy :eek: or to avoid trouble can then continue to so pretty much unaffected.
Leave the core mechanics as they are - lag often does exactly the job of these daft "cool down", "charge up", etc. timer ideas already. Adding another delay would mean using stealth would just be insta-death. Mind you I think that's exactly what some people want - no challenge.:wtf:
Jesterthegreat
17-11-04, 23:46
If sniping were truly viable (other than in areas where people can't reach you easily - which we WERE told was an exploit, unlike the play-style some people (read: PEs) like to brand as an exploit) I'd maybe agree wrt rifle spies but it isn't so I don't. admitedly the closest i have played to a sniper in the last year or so is a PE with a scoped ts epic rifle, but i have no problems sniping people (amusingly enough most people im forced to "snipe" are rifle spies sniping me at the same time, fortunatly they dont spec resists :p) oh and what do PE's consider exploits? i play a PE these days and im curious
By "truly viable" I don't mean that anyone you target can see (and most can target) you as easily as you can see them and that they can cover the distance between you in under 3 seconds which amounts to 1-2 server refreshes and is less than the time it takes to fire enough rounds to kill them.
there are weapons other than the SH. personally i hate snipers with HL's cos it seems to not show the trail or impact sometimes. that combined with the sick damage and long range makes it a damn good rifle for long range, as well as close range
Even with KK you can read between the lines a bit. Although you surely cannot be certain what their intent is the current implementation and the changes made to achieve it certainly offer some hints. Remember that they shortened the durations, not lengthened them and they reduced the requirements to make it easier to use on more silly character setups (eg the half-assed PE wannabe ones).
of course we can assume... but saying things like "Stealthing is meant to be like it is." sounds more like fact than an assumtion, which it isnt.
If people really want a change to stealth to add more "skill" to it's use then remove the drugs and add a small random element to the duration. That way if you can't predict when it will expire you have to be a lot better/luckier to react when it does drop if you aren't clear of the action. removing the visable timer in the corner and having it random would be good... but the main problem is its instant near-invunrability, not the length of time. however we seem to discuss this on an almost daily basis so lets not go into the means of countering stealth again :p
Leave the mechanics as they are - lag often does exactly the job of these daft "cool down", "charge up", etc. timer ideas. Adding another delay would mean using stealth would just be insta-death. Mind you I think that's exactly what most of the idiots want - no challenge.:wtf:
a well set up spy is a challenge. i have fought spies who have never stealthed, i have been killed by spies how havent stealthed in close combat. changing stealth would not destroy a class, it would remove a get out of jail free tool
wrt PEs - I was just re-iterating a point made earlier that all the "nerf stealth" threads seem to come from PEs who really just want it back for themselves. I'm sure it's not entirely true but there is a definite correlation.
wrt Assumptions - True but there's more sense to that than "stealth is an exploit", which is patently absurd but yet is still the first assumption of some people.
wrt Deja Vu - True, but it's more fun than barrelling a billion XP worth of launchers.
erm....stealth 1 is pretty much the only thing that keeps my little /43 spy alive...and removing any self cast buffs would be bad...
Blacksword
18-11-04, 00:41
I no longer have a stealthing combat char, but i see no problem with stealth as it is.
You can kill a stealther. Slap on a heal, db, poison, shock etc...
plasma and aoe weapons take em down easy.
They are sometimes anoying, but nothing more.
I agree here, I dont find stealthing spies to be much more than annoying. Ive killed far more of them than have killed me. 1 heh, out hunting wbs wondering where the damage was comming from. a timer would be nice however, ive killed far fewer spies than have escaped from me.
i wouldnt want stealth to be useless, but there should be a chance to get them without resorting to a dot of some kind.
how about a stealth skill in int?
would mean theyd have to gimp a lil more or i duno
in dex or somthing u guys figger the rest out
how about a stealth skill in int?
would mean theyd have to gimp a lil more or i duno
in dex or somthing u guys figger the rest out
No more skill sinks.
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