PDA

View Full Version : Neocron 2 Skills Guide [English & French]



Dirus
10-11-04, 22:57
Neocron 2 Skills Guide

Overview on how to read this guide:

This guide will not tell you how much skill in the different areas you need to reach the cap point in that skill. It is intended to give you a better understanding of what factors are involved in increasing your efficiency in the skill, and get you a better source of information to go on in terms of setting up your character.

This guide will list the skills name, and the factors involved in increasing that skill.

The easiest way to look at how all skills work is there is a ?hidden? number that can be considered the ?cap point?. Any points that you spend towards the skill you want to increase are added up based on their strength at raising the skill.

The first thing you may notice is that not all factors total up to 1 or 100%. For example:

Melee Weapon Damage = 0.7(70%)MC + 0.1(10%)STR

If you try to add the two factors together you only get 0.8 or 80%, what that means is if you spend 1 point in each of those 2 skills you get 0.8 points towards the ?hidden cap?. This is done for a reason, and it is not an error that they don?t equal 1 or 100%. The 0.# or XX% is their strength at raising that skill.

With the above example you will see that spending 1 point in MC has the same effect at raising the damage you do with Melee Weapons by the same amount that 7 levels of Strength would raise it.

Tradeskills

Construction:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) DEX + 0.2(20%) INT + 0.7(70%) CST

Research:
Skill Factors involved: 0.3(30%) INT + 0.7(70%) RES

Repair:
Skill Factors involved: 0.2(20%) DEX + 0.1(10%) INT + 0.7(70%) REP

Recycle:
Skill Factors involved: 0.3(30%) DEX + 0.7(70%) REC

Hacking:
Skill Factors involved: 0.9(90%) HCK + 0.1(10%) RCL

Implant:
Skill Factors involved: 0.2(20%) DEX + 0.3(30%) INT + 0.5(50%) IMP

Barter:
Skill Factors involved: 0.03(3%) INT + 0.35(35%) BRT


Physical Skills:

Movement Speed:
Skill Factors involved: 0.26(26%) ATH + 0.26(26%) AGL

Jump Height:
Skill Factors involved: 0.15(15%) ATH + 0.15(15%) AGL

Body Health:
Skill Factors involved: 0.5(50%) HLT + 0.25(25%) CON

Stamina:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) END + 0.1(10%) CON

Stamina Drain Rate:
Skill Factors involved: 0.2(20%) ATH + 0.6(60%) END + 0.2(20%) CON

Player Transport:
Skill Factors involved: 0.5(50%) TRA + 0.4(40%) STR


Physical Resists:

Resist Force/Pierce:
Skill Factors involved: 1.0(100%) FOR

Resist Fire:
Skill Factors involved: 1.0(100%) FIR

Resist Energy:
Skill Factors involved: 1.0(100%) ENR

Resist X-Ray:
Skill Factors involved: 1.0(100%) XRR

Resist Poison:
Skill Factors involved: 1.0(100%) POR

Resist PSI:
Outdated SubSkill, Do not use!


Weapons Skills:

Melee Weapon Damage:
Skill Factors involved: 0.7(70%) MC + 0.1(10%) STR

Melee Weapon Aim:
Skill Factors involved: 0.2(20%) MC + 0.3(30%) AGL

Melee Weapon Handling:
Skill Factors involved: 0.3(30%) MC + 0.3(30%) AGL

Pistol Weapon Damage:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) PC + 0.4(40%) WEP

Pistol Weapon Aim:
Skill Factors involved: 0.2(20%) PC + 0.35(35%) WEP

Pistol Weapon Frequency:
Skill Factors involved: 0.5(50%) PC + 0.3(30%) DEX + 0.2(20%) WEP

Pistol Weapon Range:
Skill Factors involved: 0.35(35%) PC + 0.5(50%) WEP

Pistol Weapon Handling:
Skill Factors involved: 0.5(50%) PC + 0.3(30%) DEX

Rifle Weapon Damage:
Skill Factors involved: 0.7(70%) RC + 0.25(25%) WEP

Rifle Weapon Aim:
Skill Factors involved: 0.4(40%) RC + 0.6(60%) WEP

Rifle Weapon Frequency:
Skill Factors involved: 0.5(50%) RC + 0.4(40%) DEX

Rifle Weapon Handling:
Skill Factors involved: 0.4(40%) RC + 0.4(40%) DEX + 0.2(20%) STR

Rifle Weapon Range:
Skill Factors involved: 0.3(30%) RC + 0.5(50%) WEP

Heavy Weapon Damage:
Skill Factors involved: 0.8(80%) HC + 0.35(35%) WEP

Heavy Weapon Frequency:
Skill Factors involved: 0.5(50%) HC + 0.4(40%) WEP

Heavy Weapon Handling:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) HC + 0.35(35%) WEP + 0.35(35%) STR

Heavy Weapon Range:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) HC + 0.45(45%) WEP

Passive PSI Damage:
Skill Factors involved: 0.65(65%) PPU + 0.35(35%) PPW

Passive PSI Range:
Skill Factors involved: 0.4(40%) PPU + 0.4(40%) PSU

Passive PSI Frequency:
Skill Factors involved: 0.4(40%) PPU + 0.4(40%)PSU

Aggressive PSI Damage:
Skill Factors involved: 0.65(65%) APU + 0.35(35%) PPW

Aggressive PSI Range:
Skill Factors involved: 0.4(40%) APU + 0.4(40%) PSU

Aggressive PSI Frequency:
Skill Factors involved: 0.4(40%) APU + 0.4(40%)PSU

PSI Energy Pool:
Skill Factors involved: 0.65(65%) PPW + 0.1(10%) PSI + 0.15(5%) PSU

Remote Control:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.3(30%) WPW

Remote Weapon Damage:
Skill Factors involved: 0.65(65%) RCL + 0.6(60%) WPW

Remote Weapon Handling:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.65(65%) WPW

Remote Weapon Range:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.65(65%) WPW

Vehicle Weapons:
These use the same skills as Heavy Weapons. I.e. The TL18 gun on the Combat Hovertec is the same as a TL18 Cannon.


Hacknet Skills:

Hacknet Health:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.3(30%) HCK + 0.6(60%) HLT

Hacknet Stamina:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.3(30%) HCK + 0.6(60%) END

Hacknet Energy Pool:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.3(30%) HCK + 0.6(60%) TC

Hacknet Weapon Damage:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.5(50%) HCK + 0.4(40%) TC

Hacknet Weapon Handling:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.5(50%) HCK + 0.4(40%) TC

Hacknet Weapon Range:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.5(50%) HCK + 0.4(40%) TC

Requirement Skill only:
MST: This skill is use as a requirement only and has no effect on the level at which you can use/do anything ingame.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Guide de compétences Neocron 2

Comment lire ce guide :

Ce guide ne vous montrera pas le niveau que vous devrez atteindre dans chaque compétence pour l'optimiser. Il vise à vous donner une meilleure compréhension des facteurs impliqués dans l'augmentation de votre efficacité dans une compétence donnée, et à vous donner de meilleures bases dans le projet de progression de votre personnage.

Ce guide liste les compétences existantes, et les facteurs impliqués dans l'augmentation de cette compétence.

La meilleure manière d'aborder la question est de considérer qu'il existe un chiffre "caché", que vous pouvez considérer comme le "point de cap". Tous les points que vous dépensez dans une compétence donnée sont ajoutés selon leur influence dans l'augmentation de la compétence.

La première chose que vous remarquerez, c'est que certains facteurs ne totalisent pas 100% (ou 1 point). Par exemple :

Dégâts de mêlée = 0.7(70%)MC + 0.1(10%)STR

Si vous additionnez les deux facteurs, vous arrivez à 0.8, ou 80%, ce qui signifie que si vous dépensez un point dans chacune de ces deux compétences, vous gagnez 0.8 points. Ce décalage est volontaire, ça n'est pas une erreur. Le pourcentage que vous voyez, c'est l'influence de telle ou telle compétence dans l'augmentation de votre efficacité.

Dans l'exemple ci-dessus, vous remarquerz que dépenser un point en MC entraîne le même effet sur l'augmentation des dommages en mêlée que si vous gagniez 7 niveaux de Force.

Tradeskills

Construction:
Facteurs : 0.1(10%) DEX + 0.2(20%) INT + 0.7(70%) CST

Research:
Facteurs: 0.3(30%) INT + 0.7(70%) RES

Repair:
Facteurs: 0.2(20%) DEX + 0.1(10%) INT + 0.7(70%) REP

Recycle:
Facteurs: 0.3(30%) DEX + 0.7(70%) REC

Hacking:
Facteurs: 0.9(90%) HCK + 0.1(10%) RCL

Implant:
Facteurs: 0.2(20%) DEX + 0.3(30%) INT + 0.5(50%) IMP

Barter:
Facteurs: 0.03(3%) INT + 0.35(35%) BRT


Compétences physiques:

Vitese de course:
Facteurs: 0.26(26%) ATH + 0.26(26%) AGL

Saut en hauteur:
Facteurs: 0.15(15%) ATH + 0.15(15%) AGL

Points de vie:
Facteurs: 0.5(50%) HLT + 0.25(25%) CON

Endurance:
Facteurs: 0.6(60%) END + 0.1(10%) CON

Perte d'endurance:
Facteurs: 0.2(20%) ATH + 0.6(60%) END + 0.2(20%) CON

Charge totale:
Facteurs: 0.5(50%) TRA + 0.4(40%) STR

Résistances physiques:

Resist Force/Pierce:
Facteurs: 1.0(100%) FOR

Resist Fire:
Facteurs: 1.0(100%) FIR

Resist Energy:
Facteurs: 1.0(100%) ENR

Resist X-Ray:
Facteurs: 1.0(100%) XRR

Resist Poison:
Facteurs: 1.0(100%) POR

Resist PSI:
Compétence inutilisée !


Compétences de combat:

Dégâts Melee:
Facteurs: 0.7(70%) MC + 0.1(10%) STR

Visée Melee:
Facteurs: 0.2(20%) MC + 0.3(30%) AGL

Manipulation Melee:
Facteurs: 0.3(30%) MC + 0.3(30%) AGL

Dégâts Pistol:
Facteurs: 0.6(60%) PC + 0.4(40%) WEP

Visée Pistol:
Facteurs: 0.2(20%) PC + 0.35(35%) WEP

Fréquence Pistol:
Facteurs: 0.5(50%) PC + 0.3(30%) DEX + 0.2(20%) WEP

Portée Pistol:
Facteurs: 0.35(35%) PC + 0.5(50%) WEP

Manipulation Pistol:
Facteurs: 0.5(50%) PC + 0.3(30%) DEX

Dégâts Rifle:
Facteurs: 0.7(70%) RC + 0.25(25%) WEP

Visée Rifle:
Facteurs: 0.4(40%) RC + 0.6(60%) WEP

Fréquence Rifle:
Facteurs: 0.5(50%) RC + 0.4(40%) DEX

Manipulation Rifle:
Facteurs: 0.4(40%) RC + 0.4(40%) DEX + 0.2(20%) STR

Portée Rifle:
Facteurs: 0.3(30%) RC + 0.5(50%) WEP

Dégâts Heavy:
Facteurs: 0.8(80%) HC + 0.35(35%) WEP

Fréquence Heavy:
Facteurs: 0.5(50%) HC + 0.4(40%) WEP

Manipulation Heavy:
Facteurs: 0.6(60%) HC + 0.35(35%) WEP + 0.35(35%) STR

Portée Heavy:
Facteurs: 0.6(60%) HC + 0.45(45%) WEP

Dégâts Passive PSI:
Facteurs: 0.65(65%) PPU + 0.35(35%) PPW

Portée Passive PSI:
Facteurs: 0.4(40%) PPU + 0.4(40%) PSU

Fréquence Passive PSI:
Facteurs: 0.4(40%) PPU + 0.4(40%)PSU

Dégâts Aggressive PSI:
Facteurs: 0.65(65%) APU + 0.35(35%) PPW

Portée Aggressive PSI:
Facteurs: 0.4(40%) APU + 0.4(40%) PSU

Fréquence Aggressive PSI:
Facteurs: 0.4(40%) APU + 0.4(40%)PSU

Réserve énergie PSI:
Facteurs: 0.65(65%) PPW + 0.1(10%) PSI + 0.15(5%) PSU

Remote Control:
Facteurs: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.3(30%) WPW

Dégâts drones:
Facteurs: 0.65(65%) RCL + 0.6(60%) WPW

Manipulation drones:
Facteurs: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.65(65%) WPW

Portée drones:
Facteurs: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.65(65%) WPW


Compétences Hacknet:

Santé Hacknet:
Facteurs: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.3(30%) HCK + 0.6(60%) HLT

Endurance Hacknet:
Facteurs: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.3(30%) HCK + 0.6(60%) END

Energie Hacknet:
Facteurs: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.3(30%) HCK + 0.6(60%) TC

Dégâts arme Hacknet:
Facteurs: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.5(50%) HCK + 0.4(40%) TC

Manipulation arme Hacknet:
Facteurs: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.5(50%) HCK + 0.4(40%) TC

Portée arme Hacknet:
Facteurs: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.5(50%) HCK + 0.4(40%) TC

Seulement par prérequis:

MST: Cette compétence est utilisée seulement comme prérequis, et n'a aucun effet sur l'efficacité de vos actions en jeu.

Maroc
10-11-04, 23:38
Why are most of the Factors not 100%? And some are even more than 100%!

And why is the subskill "psi resist" not removed? Every Newbie skills Resist Psi...

jernau
10-11-04, 23:40
Why are most of the Factors not 100%? And some are even more than 100%!More than 100% = easier to cap / more effective
Less than 100% = harder to cap / less effective

It's a way to apply balancing factors accross a whole weapon class.

Genty
10-11-04, 23:40
Why are most of the Factors not 100%? And some are even more than 100%!

Erm?


The first thing you may notice is that not all factors total up to 1 or 100%. For example:

Melee Weapon Damage = 0.7(70%)MC + 0.1(10%)STR

If you try to add the two factors together you only get 0.8 or 80%, what that means is if you spend 1 point in each of those 2 skills you get 0.8 points towards the “hidden cap”. This is done for a reason, and it is not an error that they don’t equal 1 or 100%. The 0.# or XX% is their strength at raising that skill.

avert your eyes a little higher.


And why is the fu***ng subskill "psi resist" not removed? Every Newbie skills Resist Psi...

Fuck knows, it's long over due...unless they actually want it to do something.

Dribble Joy
10-11-04, 23:55
I thought there was going to be other changes to some stuff... or did you change your mind?

Dirus
11-11-04, 00:01
I thought there was going to be other changes to some stuff... or did you change your mind?

What changes were those? The stuff in my Combat System rework?

Sakletare
11-11-04, 00:08
Resist PSI:

Outdated SubSkill, Do not use!
Outdated subskill, please remove from the game entirely. :p

Brammers
11-11-04, 00:25
Construction:

Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) DEX + 0.2(20%) INT + 0.7(70%) CST

Ello thats changed... Didn't that used to be 0.1(10%) DEX + 0.3(30%) INT + 0.7(60%) CST in NC1?

Sakletare
11-11-04, 00:33
Ello thats changed... Didn't that used to be 0.1(10%) DEX + 0.3(30%) INT + 0.7(60%) CST in NC1?
It says "Construction: 0.25(25%) DEX + 0.1(10%) INT + 0.6(60%) CST" in the old thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=69477).

Edit: Better take that PA off while contructing, the -INT hurts more than the +DEX it gives now.

Brammers
11-11-04, 00:40
It says "Construction: 0.25(25%) DEX + 0.1(10%) INT + 0.6(60%) CST" in the old thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=69477).

Only 5% out! :p I swear somewhere else it read 30% oh well.... The change that's got me wondering is the 10% on construct skill alone.

Current conclusion, construction is a little harder.

Dirus
11-11-04, 00:42
Ello thats changed... Didn't that used to be 0.1(10%) DEX + 0.3(30%) INT + 0.7(60%) CST in NC1?

It was Construction: 0.25(25%) DEX + 0.1(10%) INT + 0.6(60%) CST in NC1 yes. Not sure when it changed. But it was prior to me adjsting the Combat skills.

Dex was lowered, INT & CST were raised.

Brammers
11-11-04, 00:51
It was Construction: 0.25(25%) DEX + 0.1(10%) INT + 0.6(60%) CST in NC1 yes. Not sure when it changed. But it was prior to me adjsting the Combat skills.

Dex was lowered, INT & CST were raised.

Actually it was my bad, got DEX and INT the wrong way around in my original post.

jernau
11-11-04, 00:58
It was Construction: 0.25(25%) DEX + 0.1(10%) INT + 0.6(60%) CST in NC1 yes. Not sure when it changed. But it was prior to me adjsting the Combat skills.

Dex was lowered, INT & CST were raised.
What about STR?

Dribble Joy
11-11-04, 01:13
What changes were those? The stuff in my Combat System rework?
Erm.. dunno.. the whole WEP and pistol stuff that I thought was.. bad.

Doc Holliday
11-11-04, 01:20
one question. hitech combat works the same as mst yes? simply a req and not actually worth a hoot :)

Dribble Joy
11-11-04, 01:31
one question. hitech combat works the same as mst yes? simply a req and not actually worth a hoot :)
Read the skill guide again ;).

StealthyAssassi
11-11-04, 01:32
He isn't saying that its just a requirement because it matters for Hacknet.

kurai
11-11-04, 02:08
Interesting ...

Pistolers & Heavies would now seem to have more of a use for WEP, decreasing the load on DEX & STR respectively.

For riflers the differences are negligble since we spec almost equal amounts of WEP & RC anyway, both well above the base 100 point level.

Body Health is another interesting one. Looks like some tanks (and PEs to some extent) are going to need to sacrifice some resists/ATL to HLT points to compensate.

I won't comment on droners since I havent really been reading the Theme Week stuff, so have no idea what sort of state they are in now :D

da_zero0
11-11-04, 03:03
Pistol Weapon Frequency:

Skill Factors involved: 0.5(50%) PC + 0.3(30%) DEX + 0.2(20%) WEP


this formula seems to be wrong to me.

i was in neofrag right now and raised my wep from 101 to 143 both dmg and range gone up but freq didnt move not on slasher not on beam of hell.

only when i buffed myself with pistolbuff 1 > more pc the freq gone up

Dirus
11-11-04, 03:11
Body Health is another interesting one. Looks like some tanks (and PEs to some extent) are going to need to sacrifice some resists/ATL to HLT points to compensate.

The changes to body health have actually been ingame since about 1 month or so after the original guide was posted.


this formula seems to be wrong to me.

i was in neofrag right now and raised my wep from 101 to 143 both dmg and range gone up but freq didnt move not on slasher not on beam of hell.

only when i buffed myself with pistolbuff 1 > more pc the freq gone up

The RC, PC, HC, & RCL factors listed are the new ones that arrive with patch 120.

Momo Katzius
11-11-04, 10:31
Neocron 2 Skills Guide


Remote Control:

Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.3(30%) WPW

Remote Weapon Damage:

Skill Factors involved: 0.65(65%) RCL + 0.6(60%) WPW

Remote Weapon Handling:

Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.65(65%) WPW

Remote Weapon Range:

Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.65(65%) WPW


Okay: Damage is clear. Does handling influence the frequency? I suppose, that range means the flying range of the drones. For what we need "Remote Control"? "Remote Control" is not RCL, at least i understand that from reading. Sorry, but I'm a little bit confused. ;)

Siygess
11-11-04, 10:44
I could be waaaaaay off here, but for PC and RC, does that information add up to:

Pistol Users:

Damage: PC is now 15% less effective, WPL is now 100% more effective, but together constitute 100% of the skill required rather than 90% (Pistols can cap damage easier?)
Aiming: PC is now 50% less effective, WPL is now 62% less effective, but together constitute 55% of the skill required rather than 100% (Pistols are now much harder to cap aim?)
Frequency: PC remains the same, DEX remains the same, WPL is now 20% effective, but together constitue 100% of the skill required rather than 80% (Pistol can cap ROF easier?)
Handling: No change
Range: PC is now 40% more effective, WPL is now 100% more effective, but together constitute 85% of the skill required rather than 50% (Pistols can cap range easier?)

Rifle Users:

Damage: RC remains the same, WPL is now 25% more effective, but together constitute 95% of the skill required rather than 90% (Rifles can cap damage easier?)
Aiming: No change
Frequency: No change
Handling: RC remains the same, DEX is now 25% more effective, STR remains the same, but together constiture 100% of the skill required rather than 90% (Rifles can cap handling easier?)
Range: No change.

Is that right? :(

AlphaGremlin
11-11-04, 11:10
Okay: Damage is clear. Does handling influence the frequency? I suppose, that range means the flying range of the drones. For what we need "Remote Control"? "Remote Control" is not RCL, at least i understand that from reading. Sorry, but I'm a little bit confused. ;)
I second this... what do these statistics actually do to influence Drones? (Kinda curious, to get things accurate in NeoSkiller)
AlphaGremlin

Dribble Joy
11-11-04, 12:00
Like I said a while ago, I still don't think that including WEP in the equation for pistol freq is a good idea.

I was then and still am, under the idea that skill requisition should be dependant on the weapon's 'arena' of influence (range) but equal in over all power.

Melee has almost no range, so only the main subskill (MC) is required.
Pistols have a short range (in theory, it's borked atm) and so require a small amount of speccing of WEP.
Heavy has a higher range and needs a bit more WEP specced than pistols.
Rifles have a huge and almost unlimited range (again in theory) and therefore require significant speccing of WEP.

In the close combat situation they are equal, but in order to be effective outside of that they need to make a sacrifice.

Placing WEP into the pistol freq equation means that pistolers will (and they will, given the chance) have to spec most if not all thier INT in WEP.
This means that they will not conform to the above arena of influence, they will be specing all thier INT but not getting any more range.
Yes they will be able to gain higher freq, which then means they are more powerful in basic (close) combat.
That may seem as 'balanced', but I generally see it as a bit of a... mess.

Siygess
11-11-04, 12:19
I see what you're saying DJ, but while the idea is good in theory, the requirement for weaponlore alone does not appear to be the sole balancing factor for ranged weapons. Take comments from KK along the lines of "Rifles won't get AoE, they need some drawbacks" or words to that effect.. it implies that all rifles are very good, and that the high WPL requirements aren't enough to justify their range advantage? Yet clearly, the Pistol is more suited to PvP combat thanks in part to the more sensible line-up of weapon / damage types by TL.. so I can only assume that the increased significance of WPL for Pistol use is supposed to balance this out a bit more.

If nothing else, it's going to push a lot of Pistol PE's down a more specialised path, don't you think? :(

Dirus
11-11-04, 13:24
TC is still just a Requirement on RC, HC, MC, PC. Adding more then whats required when using those weapons will not provide any benefit.

Yes the effect of WEP has been made a liltle more noticeable and when it comes to pistols the only Stat besides AIM that has PC's effect lowered as a result is DMG. When it comes to aim, it only takes around half the skill to cap if compared to the other stats on the weapon.

WEP is not the main subskill needed for the weapons, nor is it a subskill in the player's primary group. Ie. Less points needed to be shared with TC, AGL, REC, VHC.

With the changes a Judge can be completely capped with around DEX100 PC175 & WEP 150.

BradSTL
11-11-04, 14:01
I assume that it still takes a Skill Factor equal to twice the TL of the item to cap quality on CST or guarantee RES? The items in the game that have a TL > 100 tend to have quality caps, so effectively the max TL for these purposes may be 100, or maybe 110. Let's use 110. That means that to guarantee success on a CST or RES roll, you need a combined Skill Factor of 220.

CST: The formula counts 10% of your INT and 20% of your DEX so 30 of that 220 is covered, but only if you're a capped spy. Assume CST chips 1, 2, and 3, plus one rare +10 chip, +5 for self-buff, +15 if you can get the faction database item the Constructor Machina Glove. That's a lot off pluses, a total of +60, not even counting any factory outpost bonuses. So you're on your own to cover the remaining 130, or 145 if you can't get the CST glove. Knock 5 off of that if you can get two of the rare CST chips. Result is 5 to 10 points lower than the last estimate of capped skill for an Engineer. Granted, that's 25 to 50 free skill points, but my enthusiasm is muted.

RES: E-parts are 115, right? So that's 230 skill factor. 30% of INT counts, so a maxed spy or monk gets 30 of those points right there. There aren't as many RES implants, so you're going to be doing good to have 25 counting one rare implant, 35 if you can get two, and another 15 if you can get it for the researcher machina glove. So let's figure it at +40 for implants. +4 for self-buff. That's a total of 74 skill factor points without any lab outpost bonus, leaving the RESer to need a raw RES of 156. Lower if you have access to a lab and don't mind the commute, higher if you're a dual CST/RES because the CST implants have minuses to RES.

Can you do both? Assuming no outposts, you'd need 130 CST (225 points) and about 160 RES (475 points), or 700 points even. A capped spy gets 578 INT subskill points, or about 122 points short. So figure RES comes up short by 25, guaranteeing about a 10% failure rate (and therefore 5% breakage rate?) on e-parts, top spells, and top drones. In other words: Yep, still one skill, even if you're willing to completely forgo the combat requirements of WEP and WPW.

BradSTL
11-11-04, 14:11
... With the changes a Judge can be completely capped with around DEX100 PC175 & WEP 150.

Wait a minute? 150 WEP? That's 1.5xTL! I thought it was supposed to be possible to cap pistols about about TL/2? I thought that the whole point of recommending pistols to tradeskillers and hackers was that they needed fewer points in WEP than a rifle?!?

Dirus
11-11-04, 14:16
I assume that it still takes a Skill Factor equal to twice the TL of the item to cap quality on CST or guarantee RES? The items in the game that have a TL > 100 tend to have quality caps, so effectively the max TL for these purposes may be 100, or maybe 110. Let's use 110. That means that to guarantee success on a CST or RES roll, you need a combined Skill Factor of 220.

CST: The formula counts 10% of your INT and 20% of your DEX so 30 of that 220 is covered, but only if you're a capped spy. Assume CST chips 1, 2, and 3, plus one rare +10 chip, +5 for self-buff, +15 if you can get the faction database item the Constructor Machina Glove. That's a lot off pluses, a total of +60, not even counting any factory outpost bonuses. So you're on your own to cover the remaining 130, or 145 if you can't get the CST glove. Knock 5 off of that if you can get two of the rare CST chips. Result is 5 to 10 points lower than the last estimate of capped skill for an Engineer. Granted, that's 25 to 50 free skill points, but my enthusiasm is muted.

RES: E-parts are 115, right? So that's 230 skill factor. 30% of INT counts, so a maxed spy or monk gets 30 of those points right there. There aren't as many RES implants, so you're going to be doing good to have 25 counting one rare implant, 35 if you can get two, and another 15 if you can get it for the researcher machina glove. So let's figure it at +40 for implants. +4 for self-buff. That's a total of 74 skill factor points without any lab outpost bonus, leaving the RESer to need a raw RES of 156. Lower if you have access to a lab and don't mind the commute, higher if you're a dual CST/RES because the CST implants have minuses to RES.

Can you do both? Assuming no outposts, you'd need 130 CST (225 points) and about 160 RES (475 points), or 700 points even. A capped spy gets 578 INT subskill points, or about 122 points short. So figure RES comes up short by 25, guaranteeing about a 10% failure rate (and therefore 5% breakage rate?) on e-parts, top spells, and top drones. In other words: Yep, still one skill, even if you're willing to completely forgo the combat requirements of WEP and WPW.

Your forgetting that depending on your setup you get an additional 20 or so levels alteast in both DEX & INT with the tradeskill boosting IMPs. I may be a little off here with the atleast part, but its pretty close without actually digging through the stats on the implants. but that gives you an additional 6 towards CST and RES. Plus there is drugs that increase your INT & DEX.

So yes is still is for the most part 1 main per skill, but that really depends on how you play your character. Yes Solo players are at somewhat of a disadvantage when compared to those who are in a clan strong enough to hold an Op, but that is one of the ideas behind having the bonuses on the Op's.

Also Selfbuffing with level 1 buffs and drawing the line at that doesn't really benefit those who have gone out and played the game in a way that allows them access to the high buffs. If you want to be able to do it all and on your own, then its going to be harder for you. Since theres an issue with boosting the solo players too much that those who don't play solo can do everything at one time with 1 character.



Wait a minute? 150 WEP? That's 1.5xTL! I thought it was supposed to be possible to cap pistols about about TL/2? I thought that the whole point of recommending pistols to tradeskillers and hackers was that they needed fewer points in WEP than a rifle?!?

Was it stated that Pistols would only require TL/2 WEP wise? If so show me where and I'll see about reducing it. As for Tradeskillers + pistols. If you want Combat + Tradeskill, then you're not going ot be able to Do CST + RES + PC. Drop one of the main tradeskills, and plan on speccing more PC to cover the missing WEP.

StealthyAssassi
11-11-04, 14:24
I did the following:
I created an imagined Spy+Pistol, Spy+Rifle and Tank+H-C - all capped, all spent all their skillpoints on their combatskills:

Spy+Pistol: 175 WEP, 117 Dex (to carry Slasher - reached by using Motoric 3 and all 3 Drugs), 142 P-C, 87 T-C
Spy+Rifle: 175 WEP, 117 Dex (to carry Disruptor - read above above), 141 R-C, 88 T-C
Tank+H-C: 76 WEP, 118 STR (to carry Doom Beamer or whatever - just for comparison reason with the Spies), 175 H-C, whatever T-C

This is all theoretical! Now I calculated their old "hidden" stats, and the new ones, added them up and calculated the average, and compared the old average to the new one.
This calculation implicates that P-C got boosted by 7%, R-C by 3% and H-C by 21%!
P.S.: Other calaculations show that the boost is P-C 5.5%, R-C 2.5% and H-C (still) 21%

Siygess
11-11-04, 14:34
Ok I'm confused again Lupus - are you saying that if the total % of the skills involved are lower, then it is easier to cap?

E.G. X: 50%, Y: 25% (total 75%) is easier to cap than X: 60%, Y: 35% (total 95%)?

AlphaGremlin
11-11-04, 14:34
The actual amount you have in one of the "statistics", ie: the points you have in construction, or the amount of health you have, is not simply based on the percentages of the skills you have.

The points you have in each skill only work towards the flip point, and then to the cap. In my calculations for NeoSkiller, the points in HLT flip at 100, and increasingly contribute less to the final value above that. However, the points for CON flip at 70, and the formula that gives the eventual value means that the lower the flip point is, the more the skill points you have in it contribute to the final value.

What does this mean? Well, in reality, HLT points give around 2.25 points of health each, and CON points give around 1.6 points, far from the half that the guide suggests.

So don't believe that the figures here give you a way to work out how much to put in each skill to cap it out. The figures here are only the ending multiplier for the calculated value of the skill, before they're added together to give your final figure. There's an entire step before that, and it can give a radically different figure than the amount of skill points you put in.

Hope I've explained things clearly enough and not given out information I shouldn't have.
AlphaGremlin

Dirus
11-11-04, 14:51
Ok I'm confused again Lupus - are you saying that if the total % of the skills involved are lower, then it is easier to cap?

E.G. X: 50%, Y: 25% (total 75%) is easier to cap than X: 60%, Y: 35% (total 95%)?

No. X 50% + Y 25% is a nerf compared to X 60% + Y 35%.

Tho when this is done, in most cases (atleast with weapons) you won't notice it as you need a set amount of X + Y and sometimes Z for other things. Like the AIM on Pistols. You may notice the effect right off the bat, as AIM is now more inline with your other stats, but it will be capped when the rest of the stats are capped.

Some stats on certain things were too easy to cap compared to the others, so they were adjusted to be closer to the others.

jernau
11-11-04, 14:52
The actual amount you have in one of the "statistics", ie: the points you have in construction, or the amount of health you have, is not simply based on the percentages of the skills you have.

The points you have in each skill only work towards the flip point, and then to the cap. In my calculations for NeoSkiller, the points in HLT flip at 100, and increasingly contribute less to the final value above that. However, the points for CON flip at 70, and the formula that gives the eventual value means that the lower the flip point is, the more the skill points you have in it contribute to the final value.

What does this mean? Well, in reality, HLT points give around 2.25 points of health each, and CON points give around 1.6 points, far from the half that the guide suggests.

So don't believe that the figures here give you a way to work out how much to put in each skill to cap it out. The figures here are only the ending multiplier for the calculated value of the skill, before they're added together to give your final figure. There's an entire step before that, and it can give a radically different figure than the amount of skill points you put in.

Hope I've explained things clearly enough and not given out information I shouldn't have.
AlphaGremlin
Surely the "flip point" (ie rate change) effect should be applied after the "hidden stat" calc.

Dirus
11-11-04, 14:53
Surely the "flip point" (ie rate change) effect should be applied after the "hidden stat" calc.

It is. The aim of this guide is to show you what skills are involved in the calculations, and their relative value. If you want to look at it another way. Take the skill that has the highest % and consider that 100% and figure out the others value based on that.

I.e. If (X = 60% & Y = 30%) then (X = 100% & Y = 50%) or (2 x Y = 1 x X)

AlphaGremlin
11-11-04, 15:15
I'm not sure what you mean by the hidden stat calculation, but the way I'm doing it (and I may be wrong, but Stamina and Health are spot on, so I'm doing something right), the flip point calculation is done BEFORE the Skills Guide figure comes into it.

They're simple division and multiplication calculations below the flip, so the order is not important, you can swap stuff around easily (thus Lupus is right below the flip, if I understand correctly).
The Skills Calculation ABOVE the flip point is not a simple divide and multiply though, so you can't rearrange them that easily. Above the flip, the figure from the Skills Guide is applied afterwards (ie: (Result of Flip Calculation) * Skills Guide Figure + other skill results = End Figure)

Regardless of the formulas specifics, the point I'm trying to make is that the relative values they have (the points they contribute towards something) are not exactly the values given here.
AlphaGremlin

Dirus
11-11-04, 15:23
I'm not sure what you mean by the hidden stat calculation, but the way I'm doing it (and I may be wrong, but Stamina and Health are spot on, so I'm doing something right), the flip point calculation is done BEFORE the Skills Guide figure comes into it.

They're simple division and multiplication calculations below the flip, so the order is not important, you can swap stuff around easily (thus Lupus is right below the flip, if I understand correctly).
The Skills Calculation ABOVE the flip point is not a simple divide and multiply though, so you can't rearrange them that easily. Above the flip, the figure from the Skills Guide is applied afterwards (ie: (Result of Flip Calculation) * Skills Guide Figure + other skill results = End Figure)

Regardless of the formulas specifics, the point I'm trying to make is that the relative values they have (the points they contribute towards something) are not exactly the values given here.
AlphaGremlin

Are you taking into effect the base values in your calculations? Ie the fact all characters start with so much health?

Ans yes they are the values given here. These are ripped straight from the file that sets it.

jernau
11-11-04, 15:24
It is. The aim of this guide is to show you what skills are involved in the calculations, and their relative value. If you want to look at it another way. Take the skill that has the highest % and consider that 100% and figure out the others value based on that.

I.e. If (X = 60% & Y = 30%) then (X = 100% & Y = 50%) or (2 x Y = 1 x X)
But then you've removed information ;).



@alpha - If the rate change is applied last you can reduce the number of calculations. You would need to have information that's hard to obtain by reverse-engineering though to get it working right. That doesn't mean your method is flawed, just that the game gets there by a different and more efficient route.

AlphaGremlin
11-11-04, 15:39
Are you taking into effect the base values in your calculations? Ie the fact all characters start with so much health?

Ans yes they are the values given here. These are ripped straight from the file that sets it.
Yup, I have the base values in the calculations. And I'm saying that the values in whatever file you have are only the final part of the calcluation, and the flip point changes the values that go into it! I'll send you my excel file if you want, Lupus, and you can see for yourself! It has the calculations I have done for the Health, Stamina, PSI and Free Load.

Believe me, it took hours and hours with my calculator to work out what formula you guys used above the flip point, and then to work out the approximate flip points themselves. I reverse engineered nothing.

AlphaGremlin

Momo Katzius
11-11-04, 15:40
@Lupus: What does this mean?

Neocron 2 Skills Guide

Remote Control:

Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.3(30%) WPW

Dirus
11-11-04, 17:46
Yup, I have the base values in the calculations. And I'm saying that the values in whatever file you have are only the final part of the calcluation, and the flip point changes the values that go into it! I'll send you my excel file if you want, Lupus, and you can see for yourself! It has the calculations I have done for the Health, Stamina, PSI and Free Load.

Believe me, it took hours and hours with my calculator to work out what formula you guys used above the flip point, and then to work out the approximate flip points themselves. I reverse engineered nothing.

AlphaGremlin

Well it's like this, I'm used to how the formulas are coded in this game, I've figured out enough of them and I have formula's from different things straight from the source code of the game. Thing is I'm also unable to discuss them as I'm under NDA on stuff like that. So unfortunately I won't be able to continue with a discussion like this.

As for the Drone stuff, I'll make all that a little clearer later on, possibly today tho I can't promise anything since I have to do some digging for that info.

AlphaGremlin
11-11-04, 18:25
Well it's like this, I'm used to how the formulas are coded in this game, I've figured out enough of them and I have formula's from different things straight from the source code of the game. Thing is I'm also unable to discuss them as I'm under NDA on stuff like that. So unfortunately I won't be able to continue with a discussion like this.

As for the Drone stuff, I'll make all that a little clearer later on, possibly today tho I can't promise anything since I have to do some digging for that info.
No sweat mate :) I'm still interested in the Drone info though, waiting for that eagerly.
AlphaGremlin

jernau
11-11-04, 18:32
Alpha - no offence but you really ought to look up "reverse engineering" as that's exactly what you did. It's quite an impressive feat to be fair considering the way NC works. I've considered doing it a few times and shuddered at the prospect.

Dribble Joy
11-11-04, 19:34
I see what you're saying DJ, but while the idea is good in theory, the requirement for weaponlore alone does not appear to be the sole balancing factor for ranged weapons. Take comments from KK along the lines of "Rifles won't get AoE, they need some drawbacks" or words to that effect.. it implies that all rifles are very good, and that the high WPL requirements aren't enough to justify their range advantage? Yet clearly, the Pistol is more suited to PvP combat thanks in part to the more sensible line-up of weapon / damage types by TL.. so I can only assume that the increased significance of WPL for Pistol use is supposed to balance this out a bit more.

If nothing else, it's going to push a lot of Pistol PE's down a more specialised path, don't you think? :(

I am mainly talking about basic combat balance between the weapon systems.
AoE and other effects/bonuses are a separate issue and should (in general) be balanced seperately.
WEP is the primary stat in all weapon systems concerning range, thus it is the main skill that determines the 'arena of influence' that any given weapon system abides by, including melee (no WEP, 'no' range). The dissadvantage that a weapon system suffered from it's 'limit of exploitation' (nice military term there) was countered by the ability to spec other points, such as more psu, imp or hack.
By 'forcing' people to spec more WEP you will remove that.
The then increased combat power of the pistol users will be somewhat contested against, as virtually all combat is fought in close up.

I basically believe that all the weapon types should be equal in close combat, ability to extend thier influence beyond that should be represented by extra skilling.

Though pistols may be 'balanced' with rifles (in that pistol now spec as much WEP as riflers, and gain a more concentrated but short range offensive style countering the long range, slightly weaker rifles) it just feels awkward and riflers will become even less seen on the battle field.

The number of secondary tradeskills will also fall considerably, I don't know whether I will be a 115 poker anymore..

StealthyAssassi
11-11-04, 19:45
[...] as virtually all combat is fought in close up.

I basically believe that all the weapon types should be equal in close combat, ability to extend thier influence beyond that should be represented by extra skilling.

Though pistols may be 'balanced' with rifles (in that pistol now spec as much WEP as riflers, and gain a more concentrated but short range offensive style countering the long range, slightly weaker rifles) it just feels awkward and riflers will become even less seen on the battle field.
[...]
OmG love your post and everything you say is what I feel, too. Makes sense.

Dribble Joy
11-11-04, 21:06
OmG love your post and everything you say is what I feel, too. Makes sense.
/backs away slowly...

Dirus
11-11-04, 21:42
I don't agree unfortunately and I have multiple reasons for why I don't.

1) The class of weapon is used by PE's & Spies

2) a TL100 Weapon is 20TL's over the Cap of a PE, Where as the highest for a Spy is 13TL's over.

3) The lines between Offensive Setup, Defensive Setups, Tradeskilling Setups needs to be unblurred. Arguing that a Pistol PE may lose their ability to Implant at TL115 if they want to completely cap a weapon thats 20TL's over their DEX Cap is not a valid issue to me. Especially when it wasn't even an option before no matter how much they put towards the weapon.

4) I can not cater to one play style out of many especially when I'm dealing with 2 classes and the one making the most noise is the lesser of the two.

It's a balance issue. If I boost Pistol PE's to the point where they can completely cap a TL100 HighTech Pistol & Implant at 115, What happens to the Spies? Those who push their limits and strive for either as much damage, or as much defense need to have an advantage over those who want to be able to do everything especially when they're the lower class.

The only part of the community that seems to really push for this it seems are those who try to push those limits and don't get any benefit. Like the people who spec 250 in CST and don't like the fact that someone with 150 can do as good as them with the exception of slot chances and speed.

Dribble Joy
11-11-04, 22:36
As I stated in a thread in the new runner section, I am more or less in favour of specialisation, simply because it does NOT allow us to do everything we want to. We are forced by it to make choices and sacrifices if we want to go full combat or full tradeskill or anywhere inbetween.
So yes I would be in favour of this change to pistol freq calculation, but only if it didn't effect the balance between rifles and pistol in the way that it will.
Pistollers WILL be at an advantage to riflers in any encounter where they both can engage each other. That is where I don't like this.
Obviously this is my personal opinion so it is completely dissmissable, but I would rather pistols and rifle be equal in thier basic combat effectiveness, and abilities above and beyond that to be represtented by additional skilling.

Dirus
11-11-04, 23:52
As I stated in a thread in the new runner section, I am more or less in favour of specialisation, simply because it does NOT allow us to do everything we want to. We are forced by it to make choices and sacrifices if we want to go full combat or full tradeskill or anywhere inbetween.
So yes I would be in favour of this change to pistol freq calculation, but only if it didn't effect the balance between rifles and pistol in the way that it will.
Pistollers WILL be at an advantage to riflers in any encounter where they both can engage each other. That is where I don't like this.
Obviously this is my personal opinion so it is completely dissmissable, but I would rather pistols and rifle be equal in thier basic combat effectiveness, and abilities above and beyond that to be represtented by additional skilling.

Rifles vs Pistols suffer from other issues and if they weren't ingame the whole idea of WEP wouldnt really be that much of an issue. when you compare MC to PC and RC, your forgetting the fact that AGL is to MC what WEP is to PC & RC.

Sophie
12-11-04, 13:39
Are the vehicle weapons considered like heavy weapons? Or are there seperat formulas?

Siygess
12-11-04, 14:43
@Sophie: I'm 99% sure that HC includes the vehicle mounted weapons.

@Lupus: Before you read the rest of this post, I want to make it clear that, as usual, we (I) appreciate the hard work that you have put into NC2 so far, especially the new skill guide and % distribution. However..


I can not cater to one play style out of many especially when I'm dealing with 2 classes and the one making the most noise is the lesser of the two.


Those who push their limits and strive for either as much damage, or as much defense need to have an advantage over those who want to be able to do everything especially when they're the lower class.

You see, things like that really tick me off - It implies that A) The PE is an inferior class because he does not have any stats that cap at 100 and B) The concept of the so-called"lower" class is entirely flawed and poorly thought out because the sum of it's flexibility is not be allowed to equal the sum of a specialised character.

Its like saying 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 shouldn't be allowed to equal 100 because 25 + 75 also equals 100.

I understand that the PE's must make it much more difficult to balance skills and classes in a system that is perhaps increasingly encouraging specialisation, but KK really needs to sort it out. If the template for the PE doesn't fit with NC2's roadmap, then for goodness sake, rebuild the PE template or scrap it altogether.

Roll on "PE" week, thats what I say :(

Dirus
12-11-04, 15:20
@Sophie: I'm 99% sure that HC includes the vehicle mounted weapons.

@Lupus: Before you read the rest of this post, I want to make it clear that, as usual, we (I) appreciate the hard work that you have put into NC2 so far, especially the new skill guide and % distribution. However..





You see, things like that really tick me off - It implies that A) The PE is an inferior class because he does not have any stats that cap at 100 and B) The concept of the so-called"lower" class is entirely flawed and poorly thought out because the sum of it's flexibility is not be allowed to equal the sum of a specialised character.

Its like saying 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 shouldn't be allowed to equal 100 because 25 + 75 also equals 100.

I understand that the PE's must make it much more difficult to balance skills and classes in a system that is perhaps increasingly encouraging specialisation, but KK really needs to sort it out. If the template for the PE doesn't fit with NC2's roadmap, then for goodness sake, rebuild the PE template or scrap it altogether.

Roll on "PE" week, thats what I say :(

5.2. 1 Private Eye
The Private Eye is not specialized in any particular area. All his skills are relatively weak at the beginning, yet equally developed. A player choosing this class for his character strives for equal skill levels in all areas, but must be aware or the fact that he can never be as good in any one skill as a class specializing in that particular area.

Strengths:
• No real weaknesses
• Versatility

Weaknesses:
• Equality in all skill levels, but limited in their development
• No real specialties.

A Judge using PE was the basis point for reworking the Pistol skills. In fact I used the info I was given in the thread where I requested player setups for most of the reworks.

With that said I took a PE that was had a setup that leaned towards as much pistol boosting implants as they could get, not including Pistol Combat booster 3, nor any drugs. Then with the exception of DEX since that has to be a minimum of 100, I took 90% of what I got PC & WEP wise and adjusted the skills so that it would be enough to cap the Judge.

That still leaves room for those PE's who want to reach for even higher since they have an additional 10% or so ontop plus they can get into using drugs, and high level PPU buffs as well.

Tradeskilling at a TL115 level as well as capping a weapon that is 20TL's over what your character reaches base wise is I'm sure likely to be possible with the right setup and access to things like Op's or lvl3 buffs, or drugs. However those areas are where you're on you're own when it comes to PE's.

Netphreak
12-11-04, 15:37
My only concern is that it will hurt spies (btw i have both rifle and pistol spies and pe's). We don't want to see it hurting the tradeskillers, but i see your point about having to balance it with PE's too.

And no matter what people say i think spies are still weaker than PE's even though a spy is more fun to play. Spies have paper armor besides their Xray resist from PA and Energy resist from Heavy Energy Protection Belt. Excluding the insanely high xray resist spy PA gives, a PE can easily get much higher armor resists even 10 lvl's before STR cap.

People will say use drugs and zerk2 and moveon etc. for inq 1. But really i hate the fact that a spy has to use nightspider for shelter just to be competitive, which if we read the class description you'd think a spy wouldn't have to drug for shelter anyways.
Basically what i mean is for a spy to be more powerful it has to specialise, and it can't have any decent armor if it goes along this path of using combat implants.

Anyways sorry for going off topic, and great work Lupus, i know the community can't say it enough. :)

StealthyAssassi
12-11-04, 17:55
Basically what i mean is for a spy to be more powerful it has to specialise, and it can't have any decent armor if it goes along this path of using combat implants.
True, its either taking lots of drugs, implanting lots of strength implants instead of combat implants or doing a bit of both.

Netphreak
12-11-04, 19:27
True, its either taking lots of drugs, implanting lots of strength implants instead of combat implants or doing a bit of both.

Yeah, and if you try to do abit of both then your combat strength is weaker than a PE and your armor is alot weaker.
Glad you understood what i was saying, as i wasn't too sure if people would understand my point.

Anyways of to test the patch then we can make up our minds about it.

whifix
12-11-04, 20:05
Aren't we missing the melee frequency equasion?

QuantumDelta
12-11-04, 20:33
Yup, I have the base values in the calculations. And I'm saying that the values in whatever file you have are only the final part of the calcluation, and the flip point changes the values that go into it! I'll send you my excel file if you want, Lupus, and you can see for yourself! It has the calculations I have done for the Health, Stamina, PSI and Free Load.

Believe me, it took hours and hours with my calculator to work out what formula you guys used above the flip point, and then to work out the approximate flip points themselves. I reverse engineered nothing.

AlphaGremlin
That's impressive.
It's so rare you see people ...actually, trying.
These days it's just skill managers heh..

Lupus;
I'm not going to pass judgement on these changes until I get ingame.
Though looking at it, I do feel a tad concerned.... (remember specialisation?)
We'll have to see though, I do have faith in ya...


Aren't we missing the melee frequency equasion?

Never been one.

QuantumDelta
12-11-04, 21:40
Damned blasted one hour edit rule :p
6minutes.
Jeez.
Anyway;

After altering my setup to this patches version of what it was last patch, I've lost 20% aiming, and gained 40/min. (ok 37/min).

I love that WEP is now more useful.
However you mighta overdone it a little bit ;)

thebee
12-11-04, 22:12
Rifles vs Pistols suffer from other issues and if they weren't ingame the whole idea of WEP wouldnt really be that much of an issue. when you compare MC to PC and RC, your forgetting the fact that AGL is to MC what WEP is to PC & RC.
Amen to this. But if and when we have a rifles theme week. is the need for less WPL for capping the dizzy and healing light reasonable now? cause i have (base) 140WPL and (imp'ed/buffed lvl 1) 189RC and that pushing it as a spy.

So what benefits are rifles seeing out of this. its nice to see pistols are yet again WAY to easy.

kurai
15-11-04, 06:36
I hope to god this is only a first step along the road of balance tweaking ... if it stays as it is now without further fine tuning we might be rather screwed.

Dear old tankehs now have the aim of pistols, the range of rifles, and the damage of APUs.

Sure - HC prior to the patch needed *some* work, but it's a tad overdone.

Oh - and the freeing up of HC points now means HC tankehs can easily spec for a melee shocker as well.

Great :rolleyes:

Dribble Joy
15-11-04, 15:21
A Judge using PE was the basis point for reworking the Pistol skills. In fact I used the info I was given in the thread where I requested player setups for most of the reworks.

With that said I took a PE that was had a setup that leaned towards as much pistol boosting implants as they could get, not including Pistol Combat booster 3, nor any drugs. Then with the exception of DEX since that has to be a minimum of 100, I took 90% of what I got PC & WEP wise and adjusted the skills so that it would be enough to cap the Judge.

The problem is that the majority of Judge users do NOT use full DEX/PC boosting implants.
A judge may be 20 tls above a PE's base dex cap, but this does not mean it is a high dex weapon, even for a PE. I for example (even without drugs) only need 3 dex imps and my PA to reach dex 100.
Balancing something on the basis that is something else is (imo) the wrong thing to do.

Regarding the rest of the changes:
My impression was that though the rifle changes were going in, the actual effects in the end were minimal, the freq calaulation for example was not going to change.
I also was under the impression that the affect of WEP on pistol aim was (although slightly adjusted) was not going to have a large impact on capping aiming.
As a result pistol users would be able to continue as they are, but had the option of gaining higher RoF at the cost of thier other INT speccings.
This meant that given full INT specialisation into WEP for both pistol users and rifle users would mean that pistols were more powerful, but rilfes had the advantage of range. This 'balance' I did not agree with, but a kind of balance anyway.

What actually happened is that now, riflers can fully cap aiming, damage and freq with much less speccing than before. A PE now caps freq at 170 RC.
Where as pistols users will be able to cap rof with as much speccing as a rifle user, maybe need even more.
A pistol user also cannot continue to have as much WEP as before, as aiming has been changed, he HAS to fully spec his INT into WEP, in order to cap aiming.
So where is any sense of balance now? Pistols don't have any advantage over rifles at all anymore.
Both cap freq, both cap aiming, both cap damage, but rifles still have the advantage of range.

jernau
15-11-04, 15:52
Pistols don't have any advantage over rifles at all anymore.
Both cap freq, both cap aiming, both cap damage
You could put it the other way round and say "Rifles don't have any advantage over pistols" because range is irrelevant in this game as long as the clipping plane and scopes work as they do currently.

Dribble Joy
15-11-04, 16:12
Seperate issue.
Pistol range is borked for a start, you can't nerf overall range without nerfing recticle speed (remember the wyatt pre boost), the two are linked and untill they change the code/let lupus have access to more of the game mechanics, it won't be coming down.
And I do want pistol range 'nerfed'.


edit/
Just seen this (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1683926&postcount=21). There is hope yet.
Though a RoG capping freq at 170 RC (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1684352&postcount=44) is just barmy.

Siygess
15-11-04, 16:19
Indeed. Pistols also have double the clip size of the rifles (something that never really made any sense, but feh, this game isn't meant to be realistic is it :D). I never use my pistol except for when I'm messing around, so I can't say for sure how much of a difference it makes..

But I'm assuming that, in a situation where a runner with a pistol and a runner with a rifle are in range of each other, the runner with the pistol has the advantage as long as he's specced pretty much all his available INT points into WEP?

Hmmm.

Dribble Joy
15-11-04, 16:22
But I'm assuming that, in a situation where a runner with a pistol and a runner with a rifle are in range of each other, the runner with the pistol has the advantage as long as he's specced pretty much all his available INT points into WEP?

Hmmm.
No, because rifles have had thier freq capping requirments dropped massively, as a result, both the rifle and the pistol have capped freq.
Rifles still maintain the advantage of range.

jernau
15-11-04, 16:27
No, because rifles have had thier freq capping requirments dropped massively, as a result, both the rifle and the pistol have capped freq.
Rifles still maintain the advantage of range.
You really need to seperate theory and practice there. I know the reasons and theories as to why it works as it does now but that doesn't change the end result.

Range means jack. Pistols get faster reticle which matters a lot more.

Dribble Joy
15-11-04, 17:01
I'm still recovering from a training weekend and I'm a little fuzzy in the brain area. Explain the first paragraph again?

I would say that rectilce speed also means jack, from my experience it's just as fast on rifles as it is on pistols. Full lock isn't needed as many weapons are beam/laser based. Look at the RoG and RoLH.

edit/
Remember that pistol recticle speed is as fast as it is atm because of the range boost pistols got a while ago by accident, my judge went from 83m to 130m.

jernau
15-11-04, 17:10
I'm still recovering from a training weekend and I'm a little fuzzy in the brain area. Explain the first paragraph again?
I mean that range is absolutely irrelevant in NC, where >90% of combat is done point-blank, so you can't list it as an advantage. Especially not against tangible benefits like reticle speed and clip size.


I would say that rectilce speed also means jack, from my experience it's just as fast on rifles as it is on pistols. Full lock isn't needed as many weapons are beam/laser based. Look at the RoG and RoLH.
Reticle definitely does have an effect although less so on Rayguns I admit.


IMO until the clipping issues are resolved pistol/rifle balancing is pointless as they are both doing the same task but neither is doing what it should.

Dribble Joy
15-11-04, 17:14
IMO until the clipping issues are resolved pistol/rifle balancing is pointless as they are both doing the same task but neither is doing what it should.
I agree, but I am mainly talking about theory of balance, the practice shouldn't (imo) affect that, as practice should be altered to fit with it (if possible).

I need to go buy tickets for wednesday's cheese night at the uni club, the shoebox dive that it is, back later.

Momo Katzius
22-11-04, 12:37
How are vehicle weapons influenced by skills?

kurai
23-11-04, 04:43
*gently prods Lupus* :angel:

It's been nearly a fortnight since the skill changes were announced now - any information on how you think things need to be further tweaked now that the results have been extensively observed in gameplay situations ?

nobody2004
23-11-04, 23:47
As for the Drone stuff, I'll make all that a little clearer later on, possibly today tho I can't promise anything since I have to do some digging for that info.

Any news please ? :)

Netphreak
25-11-04, 04:29
I do think that for pistol's they should decrease the weapon lore's influence just abit and increase pistol combat's importance.

Only slightly though. And this is mainly to help spies with trade skills use pistols. Atm it requires stupid amounts of p-c with low wep lore to cap a pistol.

How many trade skillers you know can afford to use combat imps to get 130+ wep lore?

This is what i mean.
Using a RoLH example used has 116% damage, 114% freq)
180 p-c and 130 wep lore doesn't cap a RoLH
only gets: 172% damage and 167/min freq

Jorille
03-12-04, 09:49
We are in the Hacknet theme week so I'd like to ask something

You said

Stamina:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) END + 0.1(10%) CON
Movement Speed:
Skill Factors involved: 0.26(26%) ATH + 0.26(26%) AGL

And after
Hacknet Stamina:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.3(30%) HCK + 0.6(60%) END

But why not a hacknet Movement Speed ?
It's always puzzle me why a PE with 100 ATH&AGL and 0 HCK, 0 TC (using implants to hack in hacknet) move so much faster than my completly dedict hacknet caractere.

Thanks for your answerd

Kiss :angel: (tm)

w!zZLa
12-12-04, 16:19
What is the secret on Constructing?
With a Skill of 140+ Construction and 100+ INT & DEX are all weapons at the maximum in the quality. Where is the maximum with rare weapons? And how are Slots affected? And why is it easier to get slots in a low TL Weapon with fewer Skill than with a high skilled char? Aren't Slots random?

Dirus
01-03-05, 06:39
First up, sorry for not responding to this thread sooner, it's always been one in the back of my mind ot get back to, however I'm usually always pressed for time and other more important issues have been taking priority.


How are vehicle weapons influenced by skills?Vehicle Weapons has been added to the main list. Their Weapons are HC Based so they use the same skills & calcs as them.




We are in the Hacknet theme week so I'd like to ask something

You said

Stamina:
Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) END + 0.1(10%) CON

Movement Speed:
Skill Factors involved: 0.26(26%) ATH + 0.26(26%) AGL

And after

Hacknet Stamina:
Skill Factors involved: 0.1(10%) INT + 0.3(30%) HCK + 0.6(60%) END

But why not a hacknet Movement Speed ?

It's always puzzle me why a PE with 100 ATH&AGL and 0 HCK, 0 TC (using implants to hack in hacknet) move so much faster than my completly dedict hacknet caractere.

Thanks for your answerd

Kiss (tm)The reason is Hacknet uses the outside worlds calcs for Run Speed. What isn't explicitly listed in the guide uses one of the ones posted as it's basis. What uses what in some cases, I can't answer for sure atm. With the exception of the HackNet Runspeed & Vehicle Weapons.

N3v3rM0r3
01-03-05, 13:43
if anybody got psi resist, revenge deal less dmg?

N3v3rM0r3

Xylaz
23-04-05, 11:13
ok can someone explain this to me:

rifle spy, 160ish in weapon lore, 182 in r-c (not capped yet)

HL (tl 110) 108% dmg stat= 178% dmg
FL (tl 114) all arti 120% stats = 169% dmg


now without a r-c 1 (177 r-c)
HL = 159% dmg
FL = 166% dmg


I'm kinda confused...

CMaster
23-04-05, 14:39
Its clearly dependendt on at what point in the caluclation the weapon's stats are appiled.

-FN-
20-05-05, 18:55
The reason is Hacknet uses the outside worlds calcs for Run Speed. What isn't explicitly listed in the guide uses one of the ones posted as it's basis. What uses what in some cases, I can't answer for sure atm. With the exception of the HackNet Runspeed & Vehicle Weapons.

With the changed run-speed in Hacknet in a recent patch, does that still apply? Overall, how current is this Skill Guide?

Guderian
20-05-05, 19:25
[ I.e. The TL18 gun on the Combat Hovertec is the same as a TL18 Cannon.

The Combat-Hover Gatlin is a TL18 Gatlin Cannon??? Then plz post the TLs of the other VHC-Weapons! (Bomber, Rhino.. etc)

KRIMINAL99
22-10-05, 21:30
Is vehicle speed boosted by overspeccing vehicle skill?

Mr Kot
23-10-05, 17:42
Is vehicle speed boosted by overspeccing vehicle skill?
Not that i've noticed

Spoon
10-12-05, 21:46
ReSticky this thread?

Or is the info now outdated?

IceStorm
28-03-07, 17:50
We could really use a 2.2 update to this...

CMaster
28-03-07, 18:45
We could really use a 2.2 update to this...

http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136817