View Full Version : The removal of the backpack feature
Holger Nathrath
09-11-04, 15:43
We decided to remove the backpack feature with one of the next patches. Here are the reasons:
Within the bundle of effects the dead will have on a runner, the lost backpack is principally pretty irrelevant. Much more important are the synaptic impairment, the new location of the character or the implants which fall out and take damage.
Part of the problem we have with the backpack feature is the big amounts of them lying around in several locations. This not only looking bad, but also stresses the database a lot, which could cause several additional problems.
Because of these reasons we will remove this feature and replace it with a little GenRep fee. We think this is the right decision even though this feature has been around since Neocron was born. The belt drop is not affected by these changes.
omg pwned rofl tbh thats ok
sanityislost
09-11-04, 15:48
hmmmmm sounds chilled, kinda a shame we wont be able to spell stuff anymore with them tho lol
SiL ..:..
never really go to pick my backpack up so i guess this is ok by me
hmmmmm sounds chilled, kinda a shame we wont be able to spell stuff anymore with them tho lol i think theres still items that have the backpack graphic so you can proberbly still do that
Sounds like a good idea to me. Less data for the database to handle, by removing a function barely anyone used in the first place.
Dargeshaad
09-11-04, 15:48
Does this mean we won't have to reorganize our backpack each time we die?
Murder Elf
09-11-04, 15:49
thats excellent tbh! Such a great idea. :)
So, If you have no cash, and you die. What then? You won't have a bp?
Not good tbh.
never really go to pick my backpack up so i guess this is ok by me
That's exactly the reason why the backpack thingy is going to be removed. Sectors full of backpacks it's owner thinks it's not worth the cost/effort to get them back.
Pretty damn annoying.
And a wortless item like a booster will do perfectly for target practice. You can even drop it wherever you want. :P
Holger Nathrath
09-11-04, 15:56
So, If you have no cash, and you die. What then? You won't have a bp?
If you have not enough money your money will be set to zero. If you have no money you don't have money you don't have to pay.
The formula will stay like it was: skillrank X 100
Rocks for everyone. (edit, doh)
But if it decreases database failures, I guess it gets thumbs up from me o_O
That's exactly the reason why the backpack thingy is going to be removed. Sectors full of backpacks it's owner thinks it's not worth the cost/effort to get them back.
Pretty damn annoying.
And a wortless item like a booster will do perfectly for target practice. You can even drop it wherever you want. :P
yup, i know there was one back pack i kept running past for about 3 weeks before it disappeared, annoyed me to no end :lol:
Sounds like a great idea :) ...
I however see one problem with the GR fee that will be charged even if it is a low amount what if you have no money on you when you die..
"you are dead and have no money to GR , please delete your character and try again"...
Sounds like a great idea :) ...
I however see one problem with the GR fee that will be charged even if it is a low amount what if you have no money on you when you die..
"you are dead and have no money to GR , please delete your character and try again"...
the answer is 3 posts up.
If you have not enough money your money will be set to zero. If you have no money you don't have money you don't have to pay.
The formula will stay like it was: skillrank X 1000
If you have not enough money your money will be set to zero. If you have no money you don't have money you don't have to pay.
The formula will stay like it was: skillrank X 1000
So... That basically means when you die your backpack get's "automattically" recovered?
Sounds like a great idea :) ...
I however see one problem with the GR fee that will be charged even if it is a low amount what if you have no money on you when you die..
"you are dead and have no money to GR , please delete your character and try again"...
edit : forget it just read the above reply :lol:
The formula will stay like it was: skillrank X 1000
You mean skillrank x 100?
Can't imagine paying 60k every time I die :eek:
Holger Nathrath
09-11-04, 16:05
You mean skillrank x 100?
Can't imagine paying 60k every time I die :eek:
right :eek:
just changed it :D
it's Skillrank X 100
so with SI being a focus when you die, is anything going to change about that? Or is it still going to be 40%?
Rocks for everyone. (edit, doh)
But if it decreases database failures, I guess it gets thumbs up from me o_O
Nope, doesn't rock for me:
getting killed at plaza1, gr'in back to p1 to secure my belt --> getting killed again, but now with my imps out and/or nothing in my saveslot.
Why couldnt KK remove the backpack lying around as soon you choose to recover your inventory?
An excellent and very welcome change this one.
I guess if somebody runs out of money can always go and punch the hell out of some small mobs or go through the bins & boxes and visit YOs every now or then....
Simple!
That's so fucking stupid. Now when I get pk'ed I have to pay to get my stuff back. Set up a time so that after so long, the backpacks are lost. That will keep them from piling up all over the place.
This doesn't sound bad either..
so when we die, our stuff from the QB and INV goes where ?
if it is into fresh air then does this not open up a new realm of stuff disappearing if you are GR ganked a few times?
also if it doesnt go into fresh air and instead goes into the INV with a fee would your imps drop in aswell, meaning if u get GR ganked u stand to loose your DS or SA that has just popped?
[edit]
also what if you are helping someone level symp to change faction?
when i saw the thread title i was like OMG my stuff is going to spew onto the floor when i die and get stolenz0r3d!!11111oneoneone
then i read the post and all was well.
so when we die, our stuff from the QB and INV goes where ?
[edit]
also what if you are helping someone level symp to change faction?
think you spawn with empty QB and empty INV, and then when you pay, then you get it all transferred to INV.
and as far as I know it´s not entirelly legal to help someone level symp.
just as it isnt allowed to shoot yourself for constitution experience.
i see it, it charges you for respawning, so your stuff is immediatly returned to you.
i see it, it charges you for respawning, so your stuff is immediatly returned to you.
Clarification please, Holger..
I see both as viable interpretations of your posts.
i think its straight away.. or else the items would still have to be stored somewhere -> database load is not reduced.
Holger Nathrath
09-11-04, 17:02
The System charges you for respawning. You just don’t loose your stuff any more so nothing has to be recovered or returned
from the german board:
items goes to your inventory right after you respawn at any genrep + you lose the money you would have to pay for the recovery (skillrank X 100), if you dont have enough money it would be set to zero, so yes, you better should move to your appartment cause the items are in your inventory and can drop to quickbelt after you respawn
sry for the bad english, hope you understood the most of it ^^
greendonkeyuk
09-11-04, 17:08
thanks for clarification on that, cheers also to dev for your help, your english is fine m8, its all good.
One thing, is there ANY CHANCE whatsoever that we could get our inventories lined up exactly as they were when we died? Its a pain in the arse waiting out 40% impairment without having to worry about reorganising all my qb slots as well. It would also look after that precious slot 1 item too. Regards to dropping ds's, sa's etc, i thought most people just logged off who had mc5 chips in because the wear and tear damage these days is just disgusting.
[TgR]KILLER
09-11-04, 17:18
always gr to my app anyway so doesn't matter to me.. and i always pay to get my backpack back so just solves a little step in between.. nice 1 kk :)
The System charges you for respawning. You just don’t loose your stuff any more so nothing has to be recovered or returned
Thank you :) was a little confused.
The System charges you for respawning. You just don’t loose your stuff any more so nothing has to be recovered or returned
Sod THAT!! Now i get charged for getting killed? Money is tight enough in NC2 as it is. :mad: I only used to pay for my backpack as a last resort, like after being PKed and the PKers camping my pack and belt.
If i was killed by a mob, i would respawn at the rep within the zone, and ask my teammates to distract the mobs while i walk to my pack for free.
As for dropping MC5 chips, i just used common sense in the matter. Respawning at the rep, i would check the imps in my head. If MC5 is missing, rep to appt and buy backpack, or get backpack on foot and IMMEDIATELY shove MC5 into slot one, taking a chance with favourite weapon. If nothing vital has popped, next priority is to get belt. If the belt contents are precious, straight into slot 1 it goes, then i get the hell out and buy my backpack in a safe zone. If i dropped something worthless in belt, i pick up backpack for free and IMMEDIATELY stick my slot one item into slot one.
Now, it looks like we can never respawn where we died, for fear of the GR camper waiting for our SA / DS / Herc to drop into our belt. We will have to GR to our apartments (for a fee), get poked up again (for a fee) then rep back to where we were hunting (for another fee).
And bang goes the convenient and free way for the poor newbie character to get around. While low level with few or no imps in head, just stick all worldly goods in gogo, /set kill_self and respawn at the genrep of choice for free.
The only possible problem with this that I can see is what we had in the days when rez'ing removed all of your items from the QB into your inventory. If you respawn without your inventory/QB being the way it was, you have a chance to lose your slot 1 item, which is not good.
Now granted, if you choose not to respawn in a safezone or your appartment that is your own fault, but even if you're stupid and do that, you shouldn't be able to lose your slot 1 item.
--Stryfe
Dribble Joy
09-11-04, 17:37
Highly sexual.
You have to pay for your back pack in the majority of cases anyway.
Lucid Dream
09-11-04, 17:38
Horrible idea. This is a crappy solution to a minor problem. A timer sort of system would be so much better.. for example, how about making it so that all the backpacks dissapear at the 00:00 time? (or if they already do, then what exactly is the problem) But FORCING you to pay the retrieve backpack fee every time you die is a terrible idea. 4 deaths - 20k+. that is horrible.
Horrible idea. This is a crappy solution to a minor problem. A timer sort of system would be so much better.. for example, how about making it so that all the backpacks dissapear at the 00:00 time? (or if they already do, then what exactly is the problem) But FORCING you to pay the retrieve backpack fee every time you die is a terrible idea. 4 deaths - 20k+. that is horrible.
let me ask you something..
then what if the timer reaches 00:00 and you havent picked up your backpack, and havent respawned, maybe due to a severe crash or that you die at 23:59..
then the backpack will be lost, and inobtainable...
Nice, sounds decent.
good move :)
right :eek:
just changed it :D
it's Skillrank X 100
do you know what would happen to you if you worked in a bank and did this? :D
do you know what would happen to you if you worked in a bank and did this? :D
...if it was a client that had to pay... then he would be famous in the bank...
...if it was the bank to the client... he would get fired, sued and spanked...
Holger Nathrath
09-11-04, 17:56
do you know what would happen to you if you worked in a bank and did this? :D
Fortunately I don't :p
Heavyporker
09-11-04, 18:06
Mmmm.. I'm extremely ambivalent on this idea.
Forcing one to pay for every use of the GR, whenther for traveling or resurrection, *is* good...
The backpack thing isn't so good. I *do* go to get my backpack on foot at least 60% the time I die, if not more.
Hrm.
Because of these reasons we will remove this feature and replace it with a little GenRep fee.
The formula will stay like it was: skillrank X 100
When you said a little GenRep fee it sounded like it was going to be less than it is currently.
Then you posted the formula will stay like it is. :confused:
If I'm leveling at MB bunker and die, I go back for my pack everytime.
At level 38, that's 3800 a pop, when I can just run out and get it.
How about skillrank X 50
ah greate news, i hate to reorgonize me sht when i die, great change indeed.
seven raises a good point imo.
maybe not having any recovery charge below a certain rank /40 or /50 maybe?
Heavyporker
09-11-04, 18:21
Hmmm.... when I saw a few posts and then Seven's post...
It clicked.
This is a straight up money-sink and also a teamwork duct-tape mod. Yes, perhaps it'll make KK's server a little less prone to kneel over, but look at the ramfications.
Closes up something veering on an exploit (poor man's GR - when a GR is supposed to be a luxury item), makes levelers really afraid of dying, so they'll demand a PPU on their ass, and of course makes the solitiary runner's pocketbook thinner at an ever-increasing speed as high-end content increases in difficulty and ranges further from public GRs necessitating traveling through hostile territory.
Hell, it makes death itself that much more painful.
Let's just look at this - I GR from my apt to another place... that's 1k. Heaven forbid, i have to hop direct from one place to another, I pay 4k (too low, to be honest). But if I DIE.... I pay 6k+!
Amazing the how one decision can ripple out.
Just a suggestion on Fees.
/10 + = 0 x CR
/20 + = 30 x CR
/30 + = 50 x CR
/40 + = 70 x CR
/50 + = 100 x CR
seven raises a good point imo.
maybe not having any recovery charge below a certain rank /40 or /50 maybe?
Nah just make it skillrank X 50 for all, this way the percentage is fair for everyone. :)
Nope, doesn't rock for me:
getting killed at plaza1, gr'in back to p1 to secure my belt --> getting killed again, but now with my imps out and/or nothing in my saveslot.
Why couldnt KK remove the backpack lying around as soon you choose to recover your inventory?
If you get killed somewhere, GR to the nearest GR and run straigh back to your belt, then you deserve to lose everything. This 'problem' exists currently regardless of the mentioned feature change.
Athon Solo
i never really minded the 6k charge for getting my backpacks....but then again more often than not i could just walk out and pick them up. having to pay your 6k everytime you die is going to suck big time.
your hunting...random pk (or shot in the back and killed before you know it)...and you are charged upto 6.5k for getting murdered. as if its not hard enought to make money in this game (fairly - i dont know how they get their millions o_O ).
im sure there are plenty of people that actually picked up their bp to save themselves the money...now they're getting taxed (oooo political).
YOUR DEAD. TO SELECT GENREP PRESS MOUSE BUTTON 2. AND PAY ME LOADS OF MONEY BECAUSE YOU GOT GANKED.
edit : obviously you get killed you dont go right back to get killed again unless it was a mistake.
Does this mean that once you have died and dropped a belt, you go back and die again and drop another ?
Or do you limit the amount of belts dropped to 1 every few mins
I get killed, for what ever reason, be it GR camplers, stupidity or mobs, I drop a belt... Today I can go get my belt without the risk of loosing anything else...
What you are offering is a risk, and I have to pay for it.
On top of that, I choose a GR, and its closed to me, so I have now paid 6k for a GR to my app, and a futher 4k to get somewhere close to where I am going ...
And people think this is cool ?
Peopl think what you have offered is a feature ?
Its taking away choice. I choose to get my backpack from GR, or I choose to go back and get it... now I dont have that....
I thought it was all about adding content and features, seems its more about taking some away.
The charge for getting your backpack back is only expensive for low/mid level players. Instea of a linear formula it should be exponential or somthing like that. So low/mid level players have a relatively cheap backpack recovery fee, while the higher level players have an expensive recovery fee.
If its possible that we won't hafta re organize our inventory after death, them I'm all for this change. That was the most annoying feature of death, I didn't mind si or waiting, but having to reorganize my inventory just made me want to log off.
If you get killed somewhere, GR to the nearest GR and run straigh back to your belt, then you deserve to lose everything. This 'problem' exists currently regardless of the mentioned feature change.
Athon Solo
I am in no danger loosing everything when gr'in back to the place of my death - because I don't carry stuff that I could loose. I have the (little) chance to secure my belt, with no risk loosing more stuff.
But with the new system I'll have to gr to a savezone, because most likely
a) I cannot use my weapons / spells to defend myself.
b) I am overloaded due to synaptic and cannot move.
c) cant afford to loose that valueable imp that just fell out.
The system opens up another hole for a**holes bugging/grieving other players. I just wanna see how long people with yellow sl stay alive in p1/p2. They get killed - get charged some $$, loose their quickbelt (reasons: see above)
€:
I thought it was all about adding content and features, seems its more about taking some away.
exactly !
The System charges you for respawning. You just don’t loose your stuff any more so nothing has to be recovered or returned
What if you have no stuff that would have dropped into a BP?
Sometime you have to cross dangerous areas (eg on some ERs) and the best way to do it is stick everything in the gogu and "charge". I'd be pretty annoyed paying 6k to recover nothing.
I guess the upside would be that sympathy-levelling would be a thing of the past but it's a high price to pay for that.
Costs are possibly an issue as stated above - can you make the formula distance related rather than rank to help levelling players?
Other than that I think it's a good plan in general. Reducing DB load is critical to the game's stability.
Here's an idea.. make the fee a percentage of cash on hand based on skill rank. That way if you have low cash or are low-level, you pay less. Cap the percentage at 10% or something.
Call it a death tax. :D
Here's an idea.. make the fee a percentage of cash on hand based on skill rank. That way if you have low cash or are low-level, you pay less. Cap the percentage at 10% or something.
Call it a death tax. :D
Only if you add banks where we can safely put cash.
Actually even then I don't like it...
Just a suggestion on Fees.
/10 + = 0 x CR
/20 + = 30 x CR
/30 + = 50 x CR
/40 + = 70 x CR
/50 + = 100 x CR
The Assumption is high level chars have cash. Since capped chars who have a life don't hunt (Except for WOC Mindless crap) They dont really have a massive cash flow. This means that they not out killing mobs, but enjoying in OP wars and such.....
I know that 0/2 have no cash either, mebbe KK should make the game less depndant on cash ..... somehow
What if you have no stuff that would have dropped into a BP?
You take all your Imps Out...
i agree 6k for a crappy foot could be a bit to pay
Me thinks Holgar should put this to the community and let them vote on it... So we feel this is our game
Does this mean that once you have died and dropped a belt, you go back and die again and drop another ?
This has nothing to do with belt drops. You can repeatedly drop a belt, GR out, recover stuff, die & drop and a belt, start again, as it is now.
All that will change is that instead of having to press the 'recover' button on the genrep, your stuff will automatially be returned to you.
Athon Solo
could there not be an option ??? when you die and have to gr to your appy (or wherever) you dont have to pay your x Knc to retreive your backpack if you dont want too.
make backpacks disolve with the server refesh like dropped items do. you can still get your stuff by paying at a gr but you have that set time (set my arse...its all random in random-o-corn) to go pick it up.
it makes sense but whether it can be applied ??!?!?
But i do like the idea of newbs with no money able to gr home and get their stuff when the have no money. damn the times i had to go punch spiders. :lol:
edit: like the idea of getting rid of all the crappy bp lying around the world. just dont like the automatic payment to get your stuff if you could just walk round the corner and pick it up.
Making cash as a capped char is really easy though.. you just have to be patient and not mind doing some tedious work. An hour in chaos caves would net you 200k or so, enough for several weeks worth of deaths. With tradeskills you can make even more money.
What you are saying is that you don't feel your capped char should have to work anymore, you should be able to just do pvp and pretend the rest of the game doesn't exist. Unfortuanetly it doesn't work that way, you do have to put in some work to maintain your char so that he can keep participating in pvp or whatever else you enjoy doing.
Why dont KK just remove the fee all together a few hundred NCR isnt very important to a high level but to noobs it could be a pain in the arse
Richard Blade
09-11-04, 19:37
The only downfall I see is that you won't be able to see the "hot" spots.
You know, when you cross a zone line and see thirty backpacks laying there, then you fall down dead. Then you see the 8 Johnnie 5's camping the area. :lol:
Other than that, I've always got money for recovery. It's part of living in this hard cruel world of Neocron, or so I keep being reminded by the more violent members of our community.
Why go to the pub with out a condom?
Ok, 2 important points here that haven't been emphasised enough imo:
1)
b) I am overloaded due to synaptic and cannot move.
There we go, someone thought of it before I had a chance to point it out. We are talking about overloading people automatically with this change, there is no choice. You will be stuck, unless you dump stuff into your gogo.
If you have just died and dropped something valuable in your belt the last thing you want is to be stuck to the ground for 5 minutes. Normally you have a chance to make a dash for your belt but with this change you will be screwed.
2) I expect this to be tested HARD before it goes retail. I mean really tested, with someone dying 20 times in a row, syncing after death, fatalling after death, having low cash, having zero cash, what happens if it comes during the 00:00 reset etc etc! All this must be totally secure otherwise people are going to start losing all their items.
I hope that you think this change is worth the benefit, given the risk to our posessions. People start to lose their inventories and they will quit very fast. I hope it works out.
This has nothing to do with belt drops. You can repeatedly drop a belt, GR out, recover stuff, die & drop and a belt, start again, as it is now.
All that will change is that instead of having to press the 'recover' button on the genrep, your stuff will automatially be returned to you.
Athon Solo
Yes drop A belt, the same one over and over, now you drop a new one ....
I Used to Die, GR out .. If GR PKER waiting, kills me nothing drops in belt till I revoer... Or I get to belt, pick up die, and then drop item again
With this , I die Drop belt 1 GR back, die aain, drop belt 2 (Cause I got stuff on me, which would normally be in my back pack)
Think out of the box
Why go to the pub with out a condom?
cuz you want a baby ?
I hope that you think this change is worth the benefit, given the risk to our posessions. People start to lose their inventories and they will quit very fast. I hope it works out.
Testing and risk, this KK, they never take risks... This is why there is a tracking database...
ASK KK they have a tracking database... It just does not work....
Hos can all these backpacks be causing a problem anyways, ther eless people playing now than a year ago, and then there were no problems even with the less powerfull servers....
Testing and risk, this KK, they never take risks... This is why there is a tracking database...
ASK KK they have a tracking database... It just does not work....
Hos can all these backpacks be causing a problem anyways, ther eless people playing now than a year ago, and then there were no problems even with the less powerfull servers....
well there has been numerous tickets about backpacks stuck in things so you cant target them, and smoetimes the backpack just vanished...
well there has been numerous tickets about backpacks stuck in things so you cant target them, and smoetimes the backpack just vanished...
A little cheak and tongue....
Instead of KK implimenting things like tracking database, and assitance this offers to support, which should have been done for NC2, they worried about fixing something that is not broken.
How is that, we have a theme week, dronners are us week, and yet back packs are a change they gonna make ? Should qwe save this for a backpack week ?
Is there any reason KK can offer us for things promised for DOY release not delivered ?
Yet implimeting some quick idea which may look like a blessing until people really feel the pain.
Wait till you SA in your belt and you cant move from GR cause you too heavy, and then you die and loose something else ....
Here is a question though, just a simple one ?
Does this mean everything stays in implace, except for the imps, or is it messed up in your inv ... out of your safe slot ??????
That will be funny ... Doing WB's get killed GR to Battle dome, got your 5 slot healing light in inv now, get killed by GR campers, loose healing light, try get it back, get killed again and gone is your SA ... Man thats funny
Yes and everyone thiks this is a good idea ... Why not give me your stuff SA's and Healing lights and rares, and I will go get your back pack for you
Oh Thank God. No More My Pa Being My Implant. Yes The Caps Are Intentional.
Wow. The forums actually checked my post and removed the all-caps words.
You take all your Imps Out...
i agree 6k for a crappy foot could be a bit to pay
Yeah, sometimes. Not often but there are times it's worth it. Also remember that hackers can't use imps in Hacknet anyway.
Me thinks Holgar should put this to the community and let them vote on it... So we feel this is our game
I think this is a technical issue primarily so KK need to make the call. I would like to see them consider our suggestions for alternative charging formulae though. That or upgrade to a real database ;).
could there not be an option ??? when you die and have to gr to your appy (or wherever) you dont have to pay your x Knc to retreive your backpack if you dont want too.
make backpacks disolve with the server refesh like dropped items do. you can still get your stuff by paying at a gr but you have that set time
And if you get a sync bug on relog and can't get online for a few minutes your BP is gone along with all your items. No ta.
Yes drop A belt, the same one over and over, now you drop a new one ....
I Used to Die, GR out .. If GR PKER waiting, kills me nothing drops in belt till I revoer... Or I get to belt, pick up die, and then drop item again
With this , I die Drop belt 1 GR back, die aain, drop belt 2 (Cause I got stuff on me, which would normally be in my back pack)
Think out of the box
You should take your own advice and think outside the box... Gr'ing right back to where you died at is not a good idea. Wether its a mob or a player camping the spot. You shouldn't go back till you're recovered and ready to fight.
I always find it absurd when people complaing about being ganked repeatedly, it's not like anyone forced you to gr right back to an unsafe gr were you know a hostile is waiting to kill you.
I'd rather they were still in tbh. I like saving cash by walking a few meters and collecting it.
The new system seems good but I see one major flaw.
My apologies if this has been brought up. But lets look at a scenerio in both the backpack and backpackless world.
Backpack-Land:
1.) I die.
2.) My implants fall out, ONOS my MC5!
3.) I generep
4.) ONOS, I'm killed at the generep by a gr camper.
5.) GR to apartment
6.) Phew, my MC5 is safe in my pack. I'm sure glad I didn't recover it first or else it could be in my belt right now.
7.) Pay to recover pack. Aww yes, my MC5 is safe!
Backpackless-Land:
1.) I die.
2.) My implants fall out, ONOS my MC5!
3.) I generep
4.) ONOS, I'm killed at the generep by a gr camper.
5.) GR to apartment
6.) Looks in inventory...
7.) MOTHER !$%@$% the generep camper made my MC5 fall into a belt!
8.) Go to forums and flame KK and everyone else that replies.
Update: Okay I see someone posted this while I was writing it up. =) Anyways, in response to Carinth I agree.. its not a worthwhile arguement to complain about being "ganked" over and over... but this can occur by simply being ganked once after dying... and it is not always an option to GR to your faction HQ or apartment EVERY time you die. Granted, Neocron lives by a SOL law... and its a part of life. But there was a system in place that prevented this problem and now its being removed.
Take away the backpack feature.. fine. But I think you should have to choose to recover the goods.
The new system seems good but I see one major flaw.
My apologies if this has been brought up. But lets look at a scenerio in both the backpack and backpackless world.
Backpack-Land:
1.) I die.
2.) My implants fall out, ONOS my MC5!
3.) I generep
4.) ONOS, I'm killed at the generep by a gr camper.
5.) GR to apartment
6.) Phew, my MC5 is safe in my pack. I'm sure glad I didn't recover it first or else it could be in my belt right now.
7.) Pay to recover pack. Aww yes, my MC5 is safe!
Backpackless-Land:
1.) I die.
2.) My implants fall out, ONOS my MC5!
3.) I generep
4.) ONOS, I'm killed at the generep by a gr camper.
5.) GR to apartment
6.) Looks in inventory...
7.) MOTHER !$%@$% the generep camper made my MC5 fall into a belt!
8.) Go to forums and flame KK and everyone else that replies.
I like backpacks. Let's keep them!
Necrosadistic
09-11-04, 20:56
Lol... Everyone complains just because a lot of exploits are not possible anymore...
It's a great idea, no more begging if you happen to eb totally skint when you die...
As for reorganizing inventory, teh should NOT be done - because death means something, it shouldnt be easy and fun. It should be someting you regret and something you avoid.
QuantumDelta
09-11-04, 20:59
What I find is that everyone's whining about the cash.
I'd be more worried about characters that are 'close' to overweight.
When you die, you gain SI, which reduces abilities like TRA.
This forces your character over weight, and forces them to drop items on occasion.
The Genrep recovery system also has something coded in it at the moment so that you don't always recover all of your inventory if you don't have space for it (negative trans).
If that happens you would lose it permanently, or at best until next death.
Those are my concerns.
"Bugs", not cash.
Those are my concerns.
"Bugs", not cash.Ditto.
Would it not be wise to get the item tracking working first before starting to fuck around with things like this ?
Those are my concerns.
"Bugs", not cash.I share you concerns that bugs can now more easily eat items. However, we could hope that KK will use this as an opportunity to overhaul all the relevant areas of code and fix those bugs. Probably won't happen but we can hope.
I'd definitely be concerned about things like the multi-death bug if this was introduced too hastily.
In principal though I think it's a good idea. If it just brought an end to re-arranging inventories and implanting boots into your brain by accident after death it would make a lot of people happy.
When I first heard about it, I though sound good, then I got slightly worried, espically for the newbies. By this I mean a "new player", not a seasoned layer like myself making a new character, who know how to save and make money.
For example a 0/7 player who has 400nc goes "Ohh this goes somewhere new, whats down here? I'll have a quick peep before I get my ammo and goto my (Much safer) hunting spot"
However this spot happens to be the Aggie Cellars. The poor 0/7 player dies. He genreps and finds he has no cash because of the genrep fee. What does he do? Does he beg, and hope the other hard up players give him some cash? Does he re-roll his character? Or does he quit the game?
As I said that's my only main worry.
Also the genrep cost. I think it should be changed as a result. The fee should be a lot less if you GR to the nearest genrep, and a lot more if you GR a long way.
QuantumDelta
09-11-04, 21:16
Multi Death belt droppage...hmm.
You don't drop a belt if you have more than GR SI?
+ Reduce LoM Pills to GR Level SI and it can't be exploited.
Multi Death belt droppage...hmm.
Makes you shudder doesn't it.
You don't drop a belt if you have more than GR SI?
+ Reduce LoM Pills to GR Level SI and it can't be exploited.
**cough** remove LoMs**cough**
This forces your character over weight, and forces them to drop items on occasion.That shouldn't be much of a problem unless something seriously crazy happens, as you need to be -128 (or -255, one of the two) weight before you start automattically dropping items. I suppose it is a valid concern if you repeatedly return to and get killed at the same GR however, since it's possible it'd occur when you do that.
Hmm, I guess I won't be spawning at racetrack anymore when I bite it. With a choice to recover my backpack, I could be assured of not losing anything to campers. Not so anymore. Oh well.
QuantumDelta
09-11-04, 21:21
Jernau:
I'm a tweaker, I'd hate to see'em gone.
Folsom:
My concern was more the second part to do with the genrep bp recovery code than the actual -200 limit.
angelsenior
09-11-04, 21:29
For me, this feature is just fine,
It does mean that death will have a greater importance so players will/should become more carefull about dying; paying more attention to life when fighting mobs etc.
VS players, getting ganked at a GR never was fun but GRing back to it is plain stupid/annoying (i mean the runner is back more quickly then it takes you to kill him), now theres a reason not to do it so thats fine for me (again making death more important).
This by the way goes both ways; the victim not able to retrieve belt and the ganker not able to retrieve his belt when finally somebody do gets him, as previously they would be able to recover belt before anyone hacked it.
Dont forget the chance to drop a particular item is quite limited so if you carry some lower lvl items you'll prolly drop those instead.
About money; at least now theres an automatic money loss (death is more important again), and to be honest, money is easy to come by for combat chars, theres no need for exploits to get money just kill mobs which grant good money and go down easily and sell the loot they carry (only take the more valuable loot if transport is a problem).
Everyone should test which mob is best suited for his lvl/abilities for this.
Tradeskillers may have some difficulties for getting money, but then again they shouldnt be wandering around in dangerous areas very often so they die less times then combat characters.
As this also grants XP, certainly now that WoC needs lots of XP, i dont really see a problem at all.
About bugs, well, NC1 and NC2 have always felt like some open betatest and i reckon will never be fully bugfree :(
The only thing KK should consider together with this is to make the dropped belt image larger so its easier to spot in the wastes.
everything which has even the slightest chance of improving NC performance is a very good thing.
I count it as +1 fps to NC performance, gimme another +80 fps i've lost while migrating from NC1 to NC2...
QuantumDelta
09-11-04, 21:31
Angel:
It'll be one of the top ten most expensive items in your inv.
Lucid Dream
09-11-04, 21:40
This would be such a horrid feature. While we are making game breaking changes, why not just make it so that when you die you automatically go to your apartment? Its an equally retarded fix to a minor problem.
Like Brammers, I thought the idea sounded cool at first - but many valid points have been brought up.
QD's point of "any GR you GR to, you very likely will be *stuck* there until you lose enough SI to not be overloaded".
Brammer's point of "noobs poking their head in a potentially new leveling spot will just get screwed out of important monies"
SyncError's point of "The second your GR you will drop a belt now - possibly losing things you never have a chance to save"
I agree with Lucid - This is a sledgehammer fix without much creative effort.
That shouldn't be much of a problem unless something seriously crazy happens, as you need to be -128 (or -255, one of the two) weight before you start automattically dropping items. I suppose it is a valid concern if you repeatedly return to and get killed at the same GR however, since it's possible it'd occur when you do that.
It's -200 and same thing applies when you have too many items in inventory (never bothered counting them, propably 200+ as well). I find it hard to believe that someone with ~-180-200 weight dies. It's possible if one is building at an op or something, but highly unlikely, and when that happens, one can only blame oneself.
Why not limit it, 1 backpack per player... if you die twice you need to use the GR to get your old crap O_o
Like Brammers, I thought the idea sounded cool at first - but many valid points have been brought up.
QD's point of "any GR you GR to, you very likely will be *stuck* there until you lose enough SI to not be overloaded".
Brammer's point of "noobs poking their head in a potentially new leveling spot will just get screwed out of important monies"
SyncError's point of "The second your GR you will drop a belt now - possibly losing things you never have a chance to save"
I agree with Lucid - This is a sledgehammer fix without much creative effort.
True true.
I'd really like some explanation on how these potential problems will be avoided.
Managment?
Like Brammers, I thought the idea sounded cool at first - but many valid points have been brought up.
QD's point of "any GR you GR to, you very likely will be *stuck* there until you lose enough SI to not be overloaded".
Brammer's point of "noobs poking their head in a potentially new leveling spot will just get screwed out of important monies"
SyncError's point of "The second your GR you will drop a belt now - possibly losing things you never have a chance to save"
I agree with Lucid - This is a sledgehammer fix without much creative effort.
i second this.
There some concerns (as mentioned above, not sure I agree with any of them), but I can see some advantages as well, for example you won't have noobs losing all their stuff when they die and not knowing how to get it back. This seems to be a common problem; little LE noobies knifing stuff, ask them why and it's cos they lost their gun (bless).
Yes drop A belt, the same one over and over, now you drop a new one ....
I Used to Die, GR out .. If GR PKER waiting, kills me nothing drops in belt till I revoer... Or I get to belt, pick up die, and then drop item again
With this , I die Drop belt 1 GR back, die aain, drop belt 2 (Cause I got stuff on me, which would normally be in my back pack)
Think out of the box
err - If you've just been killed GRing in to somewhere - don't GR straight back there - duh!
THINK.
Athon Solo
-=Blinduk=-
10-11-04, 01:15
Oh yay im gonna throw around drug packages instead then :lol:
Not to drop flame bait off or anything but...
Shouldent the 'new' uber servers we are paying extra for be able to handle the backpack problem :rolleyes:
Ditto.
Would it not be wise to get the item tracking working first before starting to fuck around with things like this ?
Yes it would.
And after reading this whole thread I would say it's a must.
I think KK is really going to open up Pandoras box on this one...
Huge game mechanics change in the middle of retail, why didn't they do it in beta?, doesn't sit well with me.....
They're just asking for even more problems....
But, they did slip another moneysink into the game, with this change...
Although, it does get rid of an exploit, it may open up the door for even more....
Personally, I think it's a terrible idea, and damn near suicidal to implament this, at this point in the game...
I think KK is really going to open up Pandoras box on this one...
Huge game mechanics change in the middle of retail, why didn't they do it in beta?, doesn't sit well with me.....
They're just asking for even more problems....
But, they did slip another moneysink into the game, with this change...
Although, it does get rid of an exploit, it may open up the door for even more....
Personally, I think it's a terrible idea, and damn near suicidal to implament this, at this point in the game...
I do notice they implimented it the day AFTER my trial finished and I'd just been charged for my first month...
You cunning Germans...
I've got to agree with what others have said, at first look it didn't phase me at all, but the more discussion people have had, the more it's forced me to look at it too. I'm not that worried about dying while hunting, but the current PK situations throughout NC make it a really worrying situation if I were ganked in the City. Sure I can generep back home or over to my faction HQ and be safe, but then my belt is just as likely to be hacked and I won't get whatever I drop back. Money's not *that* tight for me, but if I drop one of my psi modules and then have to try and run the gauntlet of DoY to replace it or find someone to buy the module off in NC itself, that opens up a whole new world of risks.
I'll reserve final judgement 'till I play with it a while, but I'll be honest that so far I'm not enthused about this change.
Like Brammers, I thought the idea sounded cool at first - but many valid points have been brought up.
QD's point of "any GR you GR to, you very likely will be *stuck* there until you lose enough SI to not be overloaded".
Brammer's point of "noobs poking their head in a potentially new leveling spot will just get screwed out of important monies"
SyncError's point of "The second your GR you will drop a belt now - possibly losing things you never have a chance to save"
I agree with Lucid - This is a sledgehammer fix without much creative effort.
I agree.
Removing backpacks is a TERRIBLE IDEA! One of the worst yet to date. SOOO many other things that are ACTUAL PROBLEMS exist in this game which need addressing, but backpacks get bumped to top of the list!?
Yet another change being brought about without consideration to the customer. I save a LOT of money by recovering my own backpack.
Backpacks show the history of an area/zone.
This thread gets 1 star from me ----TERRIBLE.
Voted - 1 star
Every one else please vote, do you really like this idea?
Toilet-Duck
10-11-04, 05:10
Good Idea!
I hope the fee will be cheap depending on the stuff you have.
well im not gonna rate it till i see if....if it actually does improve stability and FPS then great do it please(5 stars).....but if they do it and nothing changes, or worse yet problems crop up then (0 stars)
Good Idea!
I hope the fee will be cheap depending on the stuff you have.
Read back a little bit, Ducky - the fee will be the same as currently recovering your backpack, but not optional. If you can't afford said fee, the Great Lioon Reeza will take whatever you've got.
He's kind like that.
I do notice they implimented it the day AFTER my trial finished and I'd just been charged for my first month...
You cunning Germans...
This "feature" (onoz another KK feature!!! :( ) is not in yet. But will be within the next few patches it sounds like. And cunning they are :D
Seriously though, the more I think about this the more I cant help thinking how much of a PITA this will become. Someone a few pages back stated this will only take away choice, which I agree 110% is a foolish move. I dont know about everyone else, but 6k is a lot for me when I am trying to save every penny for the greedy WoC people, or the next faction change. But that is the least of my problems it seems.
I will now not be able to GR back to a place close to my belt that is potentialy dangerous because there is a very good chance something extremely valuable will be dropped in my belt. Therefore, my chances of a successful belt "snatch 'n run" will be rather impossible. Unless I like to lose my rare weps and implants.....
People who believe that belt drops are totaly random havent dropped a belt enough. It is not random. For that reason, I will most likely go back to my appt EVERY time now. That just means more money spent for a GR back to the hunting ground (or wherever I was). Suddenly I have spend 10k+ just for getting ganked by a bugged mob or bushwacked in a hack. Not cool :mad:
It's a band-aid on the database problems.
I've never understood why my backpack is not removed from a zone when I recover it. I'll go back out 30 minutes later and it'll still be there, even after I've recovered it. "Taking" it removes it from the zone, but that doesn't explain why it stays around in the first place.
Whatever. This doesn't impact me. I always pay for my backpack after death. All this does is automate the process. Maybe it'll help, but I doubt removing backpacks is going to fix Saturn, er, Terra's database problems.
I have a question.
Why are backpacks lying around in the first place?
They vanish once you pick them up, why don't they vanish when you retrieve them from a GenRep?
Fix that and all the problems in this thread go away.
~edit~
Damn, Ice, you beat me to it by one minute. :)
in one word...
NO
-i recover my backpack on foot 50% of times
-3 years with backpacks and it is NOW a problem to db???
-better performance/fps? we had better in NC1 and we had backpacks too
-isnt this the Drone Week???? wtf?
-this is top priority right? lmao
i wonder why kk always take one step forward (theme weeks/better communication) then 2 steps back...
The whole plan just reeks of "let's throw the first idea we can come up with at the problem that takes less than 10 minutes to code. Worry about what else it fucks up later."
Of course "later" never comes till it's *far* too late - if it ever comes at all.
There are already many dozens of examples of this approach in the game and the subsequent long term and far reaching consequences linger around like a bad smell.
Short-termism like this in a project of this level of inter-related complexity will *always* come back and bite the coders on the ass, haunting them and making their lives a fucking misery when 3 months down the line they then have to go fix 6 other problems that were caused by the supposed "quick fix"
*sigh* :(
LOL, all the whines start again, like "I am used to it, please dont remove it" I have opersonally never recovered my back pack on my feet and I always GR to my apt when I die. Now there will be no more con levelling when u just shoot a guard and let it kill you then respawn in the close gr , rince and repeat. And the priority is not "backpacks", its the ssystem stabilty and load.
Maester Seymour
10-11-04, 09:36
Like Brammers, I thought the idea sounded cool at first - but many valid points have been brought up.
QD's point of "any GR you GR to, you very likely will be *stuck* there until you lose enough SI to not be overloaded".
Brammer's point of "noobs poking their head in a potentially new leveling spot will just get screwed out of important monies"
SyncError's point of "The second your GR you will drop a belt now - possibly losing things you never have a chance to save"
I agree with Lucid - This is a sledgehammer fix without much creative effort.
Good points there, especially QD's. - If you died whilst you were already slightly overloaded then when you gr you're most likely gonna start dropping your shit on the floor too, which could be pretty bad if you gr'd to somewhere public O_o
I have a question.
Why are backpacks lying around in the first place?
They vanish once you pick them up, why don't they vanish when you retrieve them from a GenRep?
Fix that and all the problems in this thread go away.
~edit~
Damn, Ice, you beat me to it by one minute. :)
Sometimes they do vanish, sometimes they don't.
-3 years with backpacks and it is NOW a problem to db???
The way I understand it, isn´t that it is a problem now, just that it was an unnoticed problem before.
-better performance/fps? we had better in NC1 and we had backpacks too
That varies from person to person..
I personally have 100 - 200 fps in most zones.. but sometimes I do go down to 5 fps, but only in selected heavy populated areas.
-isnt this the Drone Week???? wtf?
Yes it is.
-this is top priority right?
Well..... they believe it will give better database stability, and client performance in the games zones...
Judging from your point of view on performance and fps, I would say this should be a welcomed adjustment for you.
Ok, here is a fix to 90% of your objections: Make it so the backpacks DO disappear, but do not appear automatically in your inventory. Instead you will have to click "retrieve backpack" on GR. This way you wont become overloaded, and you wont be killed over and over losing money all the time.
What do you guys think about it?
I'm guessing that the fact that your items are removed from your inventory (whether into a backpack or into an invisible holding place) is to KK a similar thing, but I'm not sure about that. If its not then I agree your solution would be better, giving us the choice of when to re-equip.
+ive for KK: Actually posting your intention to do this before you do it, giving us a chance to think it through and point out the flaws.
-ive for KK: Putting this above core promised features like Item tracking and Player Vendors.
Hopefully by now KK will have read this and the German thread and thought again, because as I posted earlier, these issues are not including what happens if Neocron's notorious bug factor gets involved. Without item tracking we won't get anything back. In fact, the only justification I can think of for this change is not a 'slight reduction in server load', but removing a major cause of memory leak, fatal runtime, or syncrhonising problem.
ultimate chill
10-11-04, 13:02
yup, i know there was one back pack i kept running past for about 3 weeks before it disappeared, annoyed me to no end :lol:
Only because it was one of your alts :lol:
Only because it was one of your alts :lol:
Hmm, tis true that backpacks stay for waaaay too long. Anyone remember the smilie made from backpacks in TH back in NC1? They stayed there for months I think...
angelsenior
10-11-04, 13:41
I stay with my view, itll be a good feature;
I always try to minimize the number of valuable items I carry when going into possible dangerous zones (so even top ten most valuable items will include items of limited value, slot 1 being protected, imps still implanted being protected, epic items being protected).
if im correct, slots is a determining factor for this calculation so having some lowlvl spells with many slots would give those a big chance to drop instead of the more valuable items (when I die I tend to lose either spells[heal,shelter,deflector etc] or armor first, of which only my PA is troublesome/very expensive)
Walking around with a full load of items is always a risk in dangeous zones.
Does anyone actually know which kind of items will be dropped first if overload would happen after GRing after death? If KK makes these the least valuable items then it should be ok from that side.
for belt recovery, teammates can help to recover the belt you dropped.
About coding, if this feature is implemented it will mean removal of existing coding, making things a bit clearer (so actually less chance for bugs to occur).
If I do understand correctly, when you die, all items will just remain in place in your inventory (easier to spot what you dropped in belt and no reorganising needed), they wont go to a 'holding place' as some people think.
This 'holding place' is in use with the backpacks as it is now but would become useless if the automatic recovery is implemented so should be removed.
About GR costs to go back to the hunting place you were in, remember that its cheap (500cr) to GR from your apt to ANY other GR accessible to you.
I would agree with just changing the coding so that bp IS removed from the zone when you choose to retrieve it through a GR and that in case you didnt use this function, that the Bp dissapears after say 1 or 2 hours real time.
If this would be enough to decrease the database problems it causes, itll be ok for me.
KK will have to test this feature on a test server though before implementing it and they should prepare a backup in case too many problems arise after implementation.
R.I.P Back-packs :( Good bye Back-Pack art.. anyone care to post any? :p
I had one that read "TWAT" in PP 1 :( ;)
I am glad to see, the community have thought passed 'Cool, this sounds good' to what implications does this really have.
Now this all said, I have not seen anything more from KK
KK Give us a say on this, let us decide if we think 'THIS FEATURE' is good.
I fail to see how this has a performance issue, added to the promise of a tracking database so things dont get lost .....
This might not be an issue you find worth fighting for, but hear me out.
They are having issues with the server load, so they are trying to find a solution. But what they have decided to do is to provide you with LESS choices (i.e. features) in the game and at a cost that could be great:
1.) It will ENSURE generep camping to increase, as the loot now stands to be greater.
2.) People will be dropping multiple belts that they otherwise never would have dropped, losing rares, implants, ...MC5s?
3.) You will be left overweight after many genereps now as you will automatically receive all of your inventory in addition to your SI.
4.) You will be left with only the choice of risking it all for the sake of a rep, or returning to your HQ or apartment.
Give KK your suggestions of how to alter the system and KK... listen to them. There are major flaws and bugs that will occur do to this minor change.
But the point of me actually posting... when are the runners of Neocron going to stand up for themselves? I still post here, but I haven't not yet upgraded my account because the features that we were promised with DoY/NC2 are not in-game! For every feature they have added, they've added 2 restrictions upon you. Now, because the servers they promised would be better than the old and could handle the load cannot do the work, they have concluded to remove the feature that allowed you to decide when to recover your backpack.
They aren't doing you a favor, they are doing themselves a favor. I suggest the runners help them find a decent compromise or stand up for whats right. Cause right now, you've been paying for NC2 and have not been receiving what you were promised.
Demand that features be added, instead of allowing them to remove the few features you already had.
1.) It will ENSURE generep camping to increase, as the loot now stands to be greater.
Only if people insist on returning to the same Gr everytime, if you ask me, people getting killed over and over again coming out of the same GR was annoying as hell, although it does not completely remove this it should reduce the amount of people willing to do it. As now you would have to prepare to do it (ie. remove everything and put it in a safe place) instead of just doing it in a spur of the moment.
2.) People will be dropping multiple belts that they otherwise never would have dropped, losing rares, implants, ...MC5s?
Again, only if you GR straight back to where you were killed....
3.) You will be left overweight after many genereps now as you will automatically receive all of your inventory in addition to your SI.
Fair point, however this does not really cause a problem if you are Gr'ing to a safe place.
4.) You will be left with only the choice of risking it all for the sake of a rep, or returning to your HQ or apartment.
Neocron would not be Neocron without fear and risk. Anything to add to the atmosphere. Also, you would hardly be "risking it all". There are lots of choices.
Only if people insist on returning to the same Gr everytime, if you ask me, people getting killed over and over again coming out of the same GR was annoying as hell...
This has NOTHING to do with returning to the same GR over and over. People do not just play in ONE zone in Neocron... Generep camping will occur at ALL the genereps... hoping that a dead player returns to it. Genereps that were once fairly safe cause they were out of the way may have campers now just because if a dead player goes there, they could have rare imps in their inventory that would drop to a belt when you get to attack their slow-overweight-SI'd-full-of-inventory ass.
Stop limiting this to the concept of some stupid newb returning to the same generep after he is killed. I'm talking about dropping multiple belts to different attackers. I'm talking about this entire system reviving the GR Camping market, because now its worthwhile to stick two of your clanmates at each GR and hope for an MC5 or rare imp drop from some poor smuck that decided to GR somewhere other than his apartment.
It might possibly be easier to obtain your own MC5/SF/SS/etc/etc by camping genereps now rather than camping the mobs for the parts.
This has NOTHING to do with returning to the same GR over and over. People do not just play in ONE zone in Neocron... Generep camping will occur at ALL the genereps... hoping that a dead player returns to it. Genereps that were once fairly safe cause they were out of the way may have campers now just because if a dead player goes there, they could have rare imps in their inventory that would drop to a belt when you get to attack their slow-overweight-SI'd-full-of-inventory ass.
Stop limiting this to the concept of some stupid new returning to the same generep after he is killed. I'm talking about the entire system reviving the GR Camping market, because now its worthwhile to stick two of your clanmates at each GR and hope for an MC5 or rare imp drop from some poor smuck that decided to GR somewhere other than his apartment.
There will _ALWAYS_ be the option of returning to somewhere safe, if you choose to go somewhere potentially dangourous then that is your choice. If you play the game smartly, you will have the same chance of dropping something rare that you do currently, if you play it stupidly then well, shit happens.
I am not saying this is the ideal solution but if it helps database problems then it's all good.
I am not saying this is the ideal solution but if it helps database problems then it's all good.
Fine, give up the option that you had in the past to return to a generep besides your apartment. I'm sure you're thinking you mainly return to your apartment anyways, and I doubt you'll realize how much it negatively effects Neocron on a whole. But in time you will, and you'll have traded your features away in exchange for letting KK slide on another server issue that your montly fee should go towards fixing.
Let 'em walk all over you guys, I really don't give a shit. I'm nailing this coffin shut. Enjoy NC2 everybody.
I dunno if anyone has mentioned this, but for backpacks, doesn't the game have to create an object in the world and then link it to everything that was on the char that died? And could this possibly also be a fix for the 'scrambled inventory' bug you get after dying? Where your implants are armor and you have 20x17 MC5 Hercs... 8|
This has NOTHING to do with returning to the same GR over and over. People do not just play in ONE zone in Neocron... Generep camping will occur at ALL the genereps... hoping that a dead player returns to it. Genereps that were once fairly safe cause they were out of the way may have campers now just because if a dead player goes there, they could have rare imps in their inventory that would drop to a belt when you get to attack their slow-overweight-SI'd-full-of-inventory ass.
If someone wants to spend their entire time waiting at a genrep for someone to come along, solely for a quick kill and hack, then I say let them do it. I for one can't be bothered to sit around all day just to have no challenge in killing SI-ridden people, but obviously they can.
Fine, give up the option that you had in the past to return to a generep besides your apartment. I'm sure you're thinking you mainly return to your apartment anyways, and I doubt you'll realize how much it negatively effects Neocron on a whole.
I don't mainly return to my appartment I _ALWAYS_ go back to my appartment, unless of course I can go to a near by OP which of course would mean I don't drop anything if by chance someone is there.
I'm nailing this coffin shut. Enjoy NC2 everybody.
Jezz, I just got back and people are already leaving after i argue with them.
If someone wants to spend their entire time waiting at a genrep for someone to come along, solely for a quick kill and hack, then I say let them do it. I for one can't be bothered to sit around all day just to have no challenge in killing SI-ridden people, but obviously they can.
It's a known fact public grs are busy places..it's more than likely for people to group or grief there purely because they see the traffic. I know I think most of us need a challenge and don't gr camp but some people in this game just play to annoy others...it happens.
Op grs are different on the whole and you would not drop a belt anyway...apart from on the german server so I can see a problem with that going onto the German servers.
@ All : doesn't anyone else see this as a another time and money sink? Haven't we got enough of these already with NC2? Maybe add some fun back to the game instead!
Ok, here is a fix to 90% of your objections: Make it so the backpacks DO disappear, but do not appear automatically in your inventory. Instead you will have to click "retrieve backpack" on GR. This way you wont become overloaded, and you wont be killed over and over losing money all the time.
What do you guys think about it?
That's not the point. It's the fact that the database has to remember what items where in what bp and whether it's been collected or not.
Doc Holliday
10-11-04, 18:21
this thread is a sticky. its being implemented. why does a 10 page debate raise about it if its BEING implemented. :wtf:
It's a known fact public grs are busy places..it's more than likely for people to group or grief there purely because they see the traffic. I know I think most of us need a challenge and don't gr camp but some people in this game just play to annoy others...it happens.
But surely if they're public and regularly used GRs, someone is eventually going to be pissed off as they're killed by campers and bring along some sort of force to kill them with?
It's grief, yes, but Neocron is hardly supposed to be a rosy place to live in. People are going to try and take advantage of certain weaknesses in the way things work.
the only thing backpacks were really good for, was a means to write
silly things on the floor.
anyone remember the screenies of a series of backpacks that spelled 'fuck'
or 'noob' or sumting? hilarious imo
this thread is a sticky. its being implemented. why does a 10 page debate raise about it if its BEING implemented. :wtf:
Surely you have been around long enough to know why :D
Doc Holliday
10-11-04, 18:44
Surely you have been around long enough to know why :D
;)
is it alton towers or disney genty remind me.
"wonders never cease and the magic never ends"
kinda fits this dont it :p
Fine, give up the option that you had in the past to return to a generep besides your apartment.You have up to 11 GR points other than your apartment which are "safe" - All faction HQs and Tech Haven. If you're CM, that gives you 11 GRs which are safe. If you're not, the number varies, but it's still more than one...
why would you GR right back into where u were killed unless you were just trying to annoy teh PKers......
more i think on it the more i like this idea
R.I.P Back-packs :( Good bye Back-Pack art.. anyone care to post any? :p
I had one that read "TWAT" in PP 1 :( ;)
Oh, go on then :p
http://www.davesdrivertraining.co.uk/Neocron/Twat.jpg
(eXo) Opaleye
10-11-04, 23:14
KK please rethink this:
It has the potential to be THE killer of this game !!
If the graphical load in areas for having the backpacks littering the ground is causing server load then posibly the answer is to have a 5-10 min. timer for player recovery before the backpack disappears and the items that were inside are returned to the player at a fee. Player gets a message saying that items have been recovered and will be made available at the nearest genrep or automatically deposited during the next genrep use.
Unless I have misunderstood, it is the graphical load the backpacks in a zone left unreclaimed that is the issue here. But the issues of forced recovery / fees is not going to fly with the community.
The first thing that I thought of upon reading this was that everyone would be able to kill "yellow" runners and "hack away" with no penaltys and greifing "a-plenty" being the rule of the day.
Graphics themselves have nothing to do with the server.
It's to do with safely clearing records from the DB. Believe it or not this is not a simple task and we'd all much rather they erred on the side of caution. If this streamlines the DB even a little I'm all for it.
Doc Holliday
11-11-04, 01:23
Graphics themselves have nothing to do with the server.
It's to do with safely clearing records from the DB. Believe it or not this is not a simple task and we'd all much rather they erred on the side of caution. If this streamlines the DB even a little I'm all for it.
what he said. im all for it too.
Obsidian X
11-11-04, 01:49
Multi Death belt droppage...hmm.
You don't drop a belt if you have more than GR SI?
+ Reduce LoM Pills to GR Level SI and it can't be exploited.
Best idea I've ever heard. The only way I can see to prevent multi-belt drops.
Best idea I've ever heard. The only way I can see to prevent multi-belt drops.
SI bugs are more common that free-load ones.
Making a bad feature worse won't help anything.
Oh, go on then :p
http://www.davesdrivertraining.co.uk/Neocron/Twat.jpg
OMG LOOOL! dude.. <3 :lol: ;)
A solution, besides killing Back pack drops completly is fixing up the code.
1) I go to GR and Pick up Back Pack, it then dissapears from the world , off the floor ... Does not stay there for weeks
2) You can only have 1 backpack out at a time. If you die a second time, the contents of second backpack is added to first
3) If you delete a char, his backpack gets deleted.
How this is how it should be ? (Except for point 2).
When KK claims its resource hungry, I fail to see why. I have 50 Items on me, I die, and there is now 50 Items ina Backpack, and none on me. All that has been introduced is 1 more container being a BackPack, So my inv is not the container anymore, but the Backpack is.
Introduce point 2, and it ensures that if someone is doing the unthinkabale of a symp kill, he will only drop 1 backpack. If there is a clan war, only 1 back pack per player ....
Total effect is, since there is 350 people on Terra, and 500 on the German server, and they all died at the same time each with 4 chars, all dying at the same time you have 1400 backpacks on Terra, and 2000 on German server.
Now you gona tell me there more people, and all are not playing at the same time, but my answer to that is, not all 4 chars are dead at the same time, with backpacks.
Toilet-Duck
11-11-04, 12:13
A solution, besides killing Back pack drops completly is fixing up the code.
1) I go to GR and Pick up Back Pack, it then dissapears from the world , off the floor ... Does not stay there for weeks
2) You can only have 1 backpack out at a time. If you die a second time, the contents of second backpack is added to first
3) If you delete a char, his backpack gets deleted.
How this is how it should be ? (Except for point 2).
When KK claims its resource hungry, I fail to see why. I have 50 Items on me, I die, and there is now 50 Items ina Backpack, and none on me. All that has been introduced is 1 more container being a BackPack, So my inv is not the container anymore, but the Backpack is.
Introduce point 2, and it ensures that if someone is doing the unthinkabale of a symp kill, he will only drop 1 backpack. If there is a clan war, only 1 back pack per player ....
Total effect is, since there is 350 people on Terra, and 500 on the German server, and they all died at the same time each with 4 chars, all dying at the same time you have 1400 backpacks on Terra, and 2000 on German server.
Now you gona tell me there more people, and all are not playing at the same time, but my answer to that is, not all 4 chars are dead at the same time, with backpacks.
I agree this idea is much better than wiping out the whole backpack feature...
@Crest
1) The actual BPs on the ground probably have little effect on the DB. The problem will be that each one still has to be stored somewhere.
2) Merging them may or may not be viable depending on how the DB is coded.
3) I'm sure that's meant to happen.
The problem (I think) is that the NC database generates a lot of orphan records. That is data which isn't properly connected to anything else. This is hardly surprising as MySQL lacks the necessary features to prevent or rectify it.
You can't just delete that orphaned data (it may be your DS) but you can isolate areas of code that are more likely to produce it and remove/replace them.
Note that this is just a theory based on observation of the way NC works and more importantly the way it breaks - KK may have other reasons. If however this is the reason then I think they are doing the best thing they can here even if it's not perfect.
@Crest
1) The actual BPs on the ground probably have little effect on the DB. The problem will be that each one still has to be stored somewhere.
2) Merging them may or may not be viable depending on how the DB is coded.
3) I'm sure that's meant to happen.
The problem (I think) is that the NC database generates a lot of orphan records. That is data which isn't properly connected to anything else. This is hardly surprising as MySQL lacks the necessary features to prevent or rectify it.
You can't just delete that orphaned data (it may be your DS) but you can isolate areas of code that are more likely to produce it and remove/replace them.
Note that this is just a theory based on observation of the way NC works and more importantly the way it breaks - KK may have other reasons. If however this is the reason then I think they are doing the best thing they can here even if it's not perfect.
Welll I can manage to make MySQL not do it, I fail to see why KK can't. It's really not that hard. You validate your DB inputs. Check to see what's going on before inserting/updating the data.
Welll I can manage to make MySQL not do it, I fail to see why KK can't. It's really not that hard. You validate your DB inputs. Check to see what's going on before inserting/updating the data.
Without a proper relational database the overhead in keeping all the relationships in check is monstrous and fraught with pitfalls. MMOs are not websites.
A solution, besides killing Back pack drops completly is fixing up the code.
1) I go to GR and Pick up Back Pack, it then dissapears from the world , off the floor ... Does not stay there for weeks
2) You can only have 1 backpack out at a time. If you die a second time, the contents of second backpack is added to first
3) If you delete a char, his backpack gets deleted.
How this is how it should be ? (Except for point 2).
When KK claims its resource hungry, I fail to see why. I have 50 Items on me, I die, and there is now 50 Items ina Backpack, and none on me. All that has been introduced is 1 more container being a BackPack, So my inv is not the container anymore, but the Backpack is.
Introduce point 2, and it ensures that if someone is doing the unthinkabale of a symp kill, he will only drop 1 backpack. If there is a clan war, only 1 back pack per player ....
Total effect is, since there is 350 people on Terra, and 500 on the German server, and they all died at the same time each with 4 chars, all dying at the same time you have 1400 backpacks on Terra, and 2000 on German server.
Now you gona tell me there more people, and all are not playing at the same time, but my answer to that is, not all 4 chars are dead at the same time, with backpacks.
No I don't think people understand We would be better off without backpacks scattered all over the place. Everytime someone zones the server has to send that extra data of the exact location of every backpack and every belt weather its next to that tree or that npc. With out backpacks theres less data being sent = faster responce times and quicker zoning less lag
If you have not enough money your money will be set to zero. If you have no money you don't have money you don't have to pay.
The formula will stay like it was: skillrank X 100
"hey m8, can you hold my money a sec. i gotta get my backpack for free"
:P
No I don't think people understand We would be better off without backpacks scattered all over the place. Everytime someone zones the server has to send that extra data of the exact location of every backpack and every belt weather its next to that tree or that npc. With out backpacks theres less data being sent = faster responce times and quicker zoning less lag
This is not where I wanted to spend my 1000th post , but what are you on.
Yes I imagine the impact of the extra 2 bits of data are going to affect the performnce of the line , especially the Broad band guys ..
2 bits of extra data
1st Bit, What are you, you are a back pack
2nd Bit Where are you, you are at point x and y....
So Someone not dropping a backpack but drop 2 belts is going to fix this....
I think KK should employ you as its development director.
Each player , each item you see in every sector goes through this, reducing it by 0.0000001% does not warrant a performance increase.
Let be honest KK removes this and we will not see any difference in performance in any way.
With the exception of a drop in performance at the 11 GR places that are safe, cause this is where everyone will be (Who thinks this shit up anyways)
@jernau
Some good points, but then if KK are using some freeware database that offers these problems, then they should code to compensate for it. I used plenty of DB's before, except Mysql, and not once did I get this problem...
Solve the problem, don't throw some hald aresed idea in and hope it fix's itself ....
Someone explain the benefit of doing this again, give me performance gaurantees, since this is the 'RIGHT' thing to do.
I wonder why KK wont give the PAYING COMMUNITY a voice in this.
I understand this is part of the KK redistribution program (Giving low levels something vets have the easy way), because there is no benefit from tis, not that will be vissible ... NC been running 2.5 - 3 years and only now where populations are not that great (Pretty low for a new game) its an issue ???
Someone smoking the good stuff and I want some
Note to some, think before you type
@Epij, sometime you can't plan when you die
Coding in that kind of functionality is a lot harder and less efficient than using built in functions.
Doing it defensively is not only extremely hard but very time-consuming and often highly specialised.
I think they've been making a few optimisation assumptions that work but often leave data lying about. That data builds up and eventually causes problems.
My gut feeling is that it's not worth doing "right", if it's even possible.
I repeat it's all theory and I've not seen any of KK's code or DB but the symptoms and now this action certainly support it.
btw - you can store a location in 1 bit? :o.
Without a proper relational database the overhead in keeping all the relationships in check is monstrous and fraught with pitfalls. MMOs are not websites.
I'm not sure if you mean that mySQL tables aren't _good_ relational tables?
mySQL is a relational database and you can even write your own table handlers for maximal optimization.
As far as I know there isn't a problem on this particular point.
I'm not bashing or anything, I'm just curious if I got something wrong :)
Just wondering... but what happens if someone's broke.. how is he/she gonna pay a small GR fee?
I'm not sure if you mean that mySQL tables aren't _good_ relational tables?
mySQL is a relational database and you can even write your own table handlers for maximal optimization.
As far as I know there isn't a problem on this particular point.
I'm not bashing or anything, I'm just curious if I got something wrong :)
Yeah, sorry, that wasn't clear.
The problem I suspect is in the efficiency of mySQL's record locking and in it's heavy read-bias. Updating large numbers of small datasets quickly and reliably without hurting other processes is something it's very poor at but it's something an MMORPG has to do a lot of.
Making optimisations to improve this is likely to open up problems elsewhere. Cutting the need for those optimisations will in turn reduce their consequences.
That's my guess anyway. Much as I'm unconvinced by much of what KK do I think this makes sense based on the evidence to hand.
Jesterthegreat
11-11-04, 21:15
"hey m8, can you hold my money a sec. i gotta get my backpack for free"
:P
you are going to give someone else your money just before you die each and everytime?
:rolleyes:
nice try though
Best thing would be to use heap tables basically (in memory tables).
There are some issues you need to consider of course but they are lightning fast. I made a few tests with a heap tables a couple of months back and the performance difference is huge.
There is a general reluctancy to use in-memory for basically anythin database related, but nowadays using replication and other safety measures such as saving to disc periodically (and in turn to tape for example), you don't need to worry basically.
Furthermore, when mySQL cluster will be released (production grade, I think it's beta atm), I can't see any excuse for not running in-memory really :p
EDIT 1/2: You could even have replicator machines which writes to disc (their sole purpose is to replicate basically), while the master machines just writes the database periodically (and potentially in chunks only) to disc.
EDIT: Sorry for off-topic mods.. we'll be nice now :D
What about character rank x10 instead since its a forced payment now? :)
honestly, i want the backpacks to stay as there are some probs(some of which have been brought up).
such as:
1.) SI- when you get SI, your freeload and max load is majorly affected, this can be a problem.
2.) Its nice being able to just run to your backpack and not pay anything.
3.) GR ganking becomes alot more dangerous.
BUT-
then again, it does help the DB in the long run and (from what I can tell) you dont run the risk of losing your backpack to a bug.
In the end, its has its ups and downs, hopefully everything will turn out for the better though. Guess we will just have to see what happens.
edit: also, the payment should be lowered a lil.. atleast make it skillrank x 75 or something like that. Helps out those that dont have much money. And something I was thinking about . If there is ever a bank system in Neocron, wouldnt that mean someone can just deopsit all their cash before going out somewhere and then if they die, they get their stuff back for free? But I do see solutions around this.
edit 2: Idea- maybe you could make it so every appt has a cabinet that you cant put stuff in, but when you die, all your stuff that would have been dropped in a backpack, instead, goes to this cabinet. It would be bassed on either having it go to which ever appt u currently have set as primary on the GR or just have it goto your start appy. (although having it go to a starter appy has its problems too...) And then if you want, you can use the Genrep or gogo maybe to recover your cabinet inventory if you dont feel like running to your appy to get the stuff. That way its still optional on where you GR too when you die and eliminates the cash penalty for dying. This way the backpack feature stille exists in a way, but no more backpaks.
Here is another thing .....
I die, and pay 6K, GR somewhere else, Die and pay another 6K cause of some GR PKER, and not only do I loose a second belt I pay double, for no benefit.
@jernau
I dunno about the exact size of the locations field, but I imagine, it cant be that big in relation to the rest of the data comming through.
I yet to see the point of getting rid of them
I died at Gravis tonight. I GRed to Redrock, bought my backpack, wore off SI, got repoked, and when I got back to where I died at Gravis, nearly 10 minutes later my backpack was STILL there.
The coding fault seems to lie in the halflife of the backpacks... that backpack should've disappeared from the database once I bought mine back... no?
Crest if you GR back to the place you were killed on I see no reson why you should not loose stuff.There is a GR in your appartment you can use.Then after you are poked or put the valuable things in gogo or something then I would say you could go back.And GR camping is not a new issue btw.That was born with NC.Just check racetrack GR and lots of times battledome not to mention point red where anticity got their epic quest as well.
And I also saw how clever someone posted that it takes only 1 or 2 bits about backpack for the database.Maybe so but also calculate all stuff that is in the backpack.That must also be linked to database.And my guess is that it is those links they want removed to get better DB.And by that I hope less rollbacks too.Many ppl scream on those rollbacks but then still scream when they want to clean up the DB to make it better.
nobody2004
12-11-04, 15:05
You shouldn't remove backpacks IMHO, they're part of NC.
If there are performance related issues, what about reducing the delay BP's remain IG ?
Crest if you GR back to the place you were killed on I see no reson why you should not loose stuff.There is a GR in your appartment you can use.Then after you are poked or put the valuable things in gogo or something then I would say you could go back.
So Rule of thumb, always go back to your APP. Wait for Synap to go, then GR for Pokes ? You wanna work for KK and introduce time syncs in...
Say you die in J_09, drop belt, and SA comes out ... GR to plaza which is where you could get pokes, and a Anti city raid (Has happened before) is in plaza 1, they kill you , SA in belt and gone ... R U Saying that I should have go to App first ? Then GR for pokes and almost as much SI ??????
And I also saw how clever someone posted that it takes only 1 or 2 bits about backpack for the database.Maybe so but also calculate all stuff that is in the backpack.That must also be linked to database.And my guess is that it is those links they want removed to get better DB.And by that I hope less rollbacks too.Many ppl scream on those rollbacks but then still scream when they want to clean up the DB to make it better.
Call me clever will you, How about te same calculations occur when the stuff is in your inv anyways. You have a Weapon, it has a location stored, either its in a BP, so linked to BP or in your Inv...same amount of data defining the locations. So this is not a valid argument to removing what we have
Say you die in J_09, drop belt, and SA comes out ... GR to plaza which is where you could get pokes, and a Anti city raid (Has happened before) is in plaza 1, they kill you , SA in belt and gone ... R U Saying that I should have go to App first ? Then GR for pokes and almost as much SI ??????
How about taking a visit to the neutral trading area of Tech Haven?
Also are you saying that you would not die anyway if you had a few implants out and a big surge of enemies came even if you had 0 SI? If you want to get it poked you will carry it with you so you have the same chance of it dropping.
Freaky Fryd
12-11-04, 21:38
I can't wait to see how many GR campers there are now...
Each one of them hoping the person GRs right back because 1) they forgot about the new rule 2) they are really hopeful about getting their belt back
I wonder how many MC5s are going to be found in belts now...
:confused:
(once they fix imps not popping)
Jesterthegreat
12-11-04, 22:15
the new rules are fine... except SI + full inv = overloaded :p
oh and imps arent popping anymore
Disturbed21
14-11-04, 22:41
Honestly didn't see a reason to implement this. I mean was there really that many backpacks laying on the ground that it was causing problems?
I don't really care about retreiving my backpack from the spot where I died but I do think you should be allowed to select when you want your backpack back, not just have it forced on you when you gr.
Only real option I'm going to miss is if I died in Plaza to an ally (getting them yellow sl) I could potentially gr back and try to grab my belt b4 it gets hacked, and if they decide to kill me a few times in a row they gain even more - sl. Eventually they would leave in fear of being ganked themselves.
That option is gone as I will lose more and more items and get to a point where I couldn't walk if I continued to gr back there.
*shrug* seems like a closed issue I guess, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
I think the backpack recovery charge should be lowered to at least half it is now ...... I used up so much cash by dying many times its not funny ... particularly when ur getting pk'd while hunting.
Its also damn annoying that you have to wait out SI just to get your goddam belt because of the freeload issue. There's no gogos next to GRs so basically ur a sitting duck.
The penalties for dying far outweigh the penalties before the change.
Maybe the change to make is that instead of picking the GR you want to go to, you go straight to your apartment with zero SI ..... if you want to recover your belt or go back then the normal GR fee of 500 NC and normal SI still applies. With the halving of the fee then getting pk'd many times over won't be as bad.
I think the backpack recovery charge should be lowered to at least half it is now ...... I used up so much cash by dying many times its not funny ... particularly when ur getting pk'd while hunting.
It was supposed to be lower.
Because of these reasons we will remove this feature and replace it with a little GenRep fee.
The ideas shocking, It creates a money sink for one,
Then you take a GR in an anarchy zone, you get jumped a die and know you could of dropped something rare.. you GR back but wait... I have my popped imps in my inventory all my rares etc.. err oh..
I died again, shit Now i dropped my MC 5 chip.. Belt retrieval just got made redundant if it was a Pk death..
Maybe add layers to a belt so the person has at least a remote chance of getting the belt.. 100 SL dont mean shit.. it can still be gone in seconds :rolleyes:
The ideas shocking, It creates a money sink for one,
Then you take a GR in an anarchy zone, you get jumped a die and know you could of dropped something rare.. you GR back but wait... I have my popped imps in my inventory all my rares etc.. err oh..
I died again, shit Now i dropped my MC 5 chip.. Belt retrieval just got made redundant if it was a Pk death..
Maybe add layers to a belt so the person has at least a remote chance of getting the belt.. 100 SL dont mean shit.. it can still be gone in seconds :rolleyes:
solution is very easy and have been stated hundreds times already - dont GR back there...
And personally, i like the money sink it creates. Yesterday i've paid about 80k for backpacks, but its ok, it gives time to people who defeat me to hack my belts and prepare for counterattack. Before i was popping out of gr, grabbing a stealth 1 and rushing to get my belt (without retrieving backpack of course), most of the time i could get my belt back before they managed to hack it. And it wasnt very fair as other classess didnt have the chance for this. So, from my point of view, its all good.
Bugs Gunny
15-11-04, 12:22
Has anyone ver thought of the consequences for the new players in this game?
It's not like they get easy cash anyway, and how many die in the aggies?
Suppose i'm a 8/12 noob, and i die in aggies 5 times, that means i have lost 5000nc. Try making that cash on a new char without items and stuff from other players.
solution is very easy and have been stated hundreds times already - dont GR back there...
And personally, i like the money sink it creates. Yesterday i've paid about 80k for backpacks, but its ok, it gives time to people who defeat me to hack my belts and prepare for counterattack. Before i was popping out of gr, grabbing a stealth 1 and rushing to get my belt (without retrieving backpack of course), most of the time i could get my belt back before they managed to hack it. And it wasnt very fair as other classess didnt have the chance for this. So, from my point of view, its all good.
Okay so you've lost your greatest/most loved spell/weapon.. you can wave good bye to getting that back eh? :rolleyes:
KK went and done it anyway, once again not fixing the problem, not thinking of the result. Thanls for the Imps not falling out.
Yes I created a new char, and before you know it I have my backpack, no cash case I died a few times... and was screwed before I started...
WELL DON KK.....
yeah, what happens if you have no cash..? no armour no weapons?
of to the aggie cellers with my fists and a healer i guess.. oh wait im LE'd :o
Okay so you've lost your greatest/most loved spell/weapon.. you can wave good bye to getting that back eh? :rolleyes:
yes - if it means the risk of loosing more with another kill
yes - if it means the risk of loosing more with another kill
well if i was to lose something important.. id leave the game.. because ive not played this game for 2 years to loose my shit to this 'new' idea ;) :)
Bugs Gunny
15-11-04, 13:53
More and more KK is making this a game for the long time players only.
It's now realy hard for a new player to start the game, and level up, since he has to go to great lengths to get his leveling weapons etc.
Then there's this new gr thing, so many other moneysinks.
I don't see how people won't get frustrated with the game withing a week or so, the way it is now.
How many new players will ever get to go outside the cities? I know it took me a while to go outside into the wastelands, and it was when i found out how big neocron realy is.
Right now, players go broke before that point, or just stop playing as they can't find good weapons anymore.
Not to mention there is'nt many constructors or researchers with acces to the bp's for weapons that are not working out of techhaven, and which noob has that gr, or even knows about the place?. Then the high level tradeskillers usualy don't do a lot of business for the pisspoor new players anyway.
They prefer doing 3 tl 150bp's and getting a straight 30k instead of a poor tip from a noob, for which they probably have to genrep twice too.
We need someone else with the motivation and the brains, like lupus, that looks into the situation with the mindset of a new player, and then goes and fixes things the right way.
Has anyone ver thought of the consequences for the new players in this game?
It's not like they get easy cash anyway, and how many die in the aggies?
Suppose i'm a 8/12 noob, and i die in aggies 5 times, that means i have lost 5000nc. Try making that cash on a new char without items and stuff from other players.
I really don't get why people think it's not easy to make cash in Neocron as a newbie.
Tips:
1) Collect and sell trash
2) Collect and recycle trash for ammo (Highest ammo is TL42 IIRC, so you only need 42 recycle - much less for most things)
3) You don't need to buy an all artifact weapon for levelling.
4) You don't need to buy a new weaon every time you ding - I usually buy a new one about every 10 TL's
5) Don't use drugs. These are expensive and IMO not worth it just for levelling.
6) Make friends and join a clan who will help you out.
Athon Solo
I really don't get why people think it's not easy to make cash in Neocron as a newbie.
Tips:
1) Collect and sell trash
2) Collect and recycle trash for ammo (Highest ammo is TL42 IIRC, so you only need 42 recycle - much less for most things)
3) You don't need to buy an all artifact weapon for levelling.
4) You don't need to buy a new weaon every time you ding - I usually buy a new one about every 10 TL's
5) Don't use drugs. These are expensive and IMO not worth it just for levelling.
6) Make friends and join a clan who will help you out.
Athon Solo
Ok for a new person starting out without knowing what NC is let alone knowing anyone in-game .... how can they possibly know this?
Ok for a new person starting out without knowing what NC is let alone knowing anyone in-game .... how can they possibly know this?
I'd say those rules apply to every RPG I've ever played.
The biggest issue for me now, is the freeload problem...
I don't like being forced to GR to a completely safe zone upon death....
They need to reduce the Death S.I. to about 25% to 30%...... *winks*
I really don't get why people think it's not easy to make cash in Neocron as a newbie.
Tips:
1) Collect and sell trash
Yes I am new and know how to do this... I also have no life so I sell junk
2) Collect and recycle trash for ammo (Highest ammo is TL42 IIRC, so you only need 42 recycle - much less for most things)
I mannaged to know what this was for when I created my char, so yes this id a plus since I have can afford these points upfront, with a noob
3) You don't need to buy an all artifact weapon for levelling.
Yes I am, I want to spend as much time in sewers as possible, I kinda like the flies, they are a challenge, and with crap weapons, I can hit them twice as much
4) You don't need to buy a new weaon every time you ding - I usually buy a new one about every 10 TL's
Yes I am new and dont want to level quickly as I enjoy being PK'ed and all, these sewers are so cool anyways, I think the fly likes me too
5) Don't use drugs. These are expensive and IMO not worth it just for levelling.
Yes I am, the first thing I do with my left over 1k is buy drugs, cause I know where it is and how good they are... I think those flies could do with some drugs too, and then we could have some fun
6) Make friends and join a clan who will help you out.
Yes I am new, but with no money, crap weapons, I can never get out of the sewers to make friends, at leaset I have drugs, and flies, and we can all be friends
Think of noob with no NC experiance
I started a dronner yesterday, just from tagging GR's I spent 50K ... I had pre made my dronnes so they did not cost a thing, and now I can level. If I were a noob, I would have 3 dronnes, and no cash ... and I must learn how dronnes work before I loose all 3 ...
THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX
Bugs Gunny
15-11-04, 17:50
Yep, people that played the game for too long take thinking paterns inside neocron for granted.
Yep, people that played the game for too long take thinking paterns inside neocron for granted.
IMO "loot everything" is the RPG equivalent or "strafe and jump" in FPS and "protect your harvesters" in RTS.
It is fair to expect some level of general knowledge from new players.
If you think it's hard to get money and items in NC you really need to try some of the real grind games out there.
IMO "loot everything" is the RPG equivalent or "strafe and jump" in FPS and "protect your harvesters" in RTS.
It is fair to expect some level of general knowledge from new players.
If you think it's hard to get money and items in NC you really need to try some of the real grind games out there.
That's only if you assume that "new" players are experienced at RPGs or MMORPGs. ;)
I assume all noobs don't know crap because my experience of non-IT literate people has shown it to be mostly true
:lol:
The notes neglected to mention that if you're broke you get your backpack for free.
And you guys are lookin at this the wrong way, income has been a problem in nc for a long time. There's nothing wrong with removing backpacks and charging us, the problem is in the availability of cash for different players. Instead of focusing on the backpacks, you should try to get the real problem solved.
It's always been really tough on new players and way too easy on high level/capped players. Until mid/high level you're living paycheck to paycheck, just barely making it. The money you bring in while hunting and selling loot just barely covers the constant upgrades in equipment you'll need. As a broke young monk the biggest restriction wasn't any stat, it was cash. I would have the requirments to use my spells/armor way before I ever managed to earn the cash to buy em. When you finnaly reach the point where you don't need to buy anymore equipment, when you move on to rare's you actualy start saving cash.. and at an astronomical rate. Now it becomes easy to earn cash, which only serves to push inflation up and make it even harder on the new players.
The tradeskiller problem is another one that's been with us for a long time. I remember actualy being happy that people had found money exploits because they could actualy afford decent tips then. I got my start in neocron as a tradeskiller and it was awful, especialy when they introduced substance. Tradeskillers are faced with many reasons to just stay in bed, instead of going out to work for the public. The work itself is needlessly tedious and not always rewarding. The tips are not worthwhile unless its for big jobs or from people that throw away money, getting a 100k tip for a poke is nice : ) Until now it wasn't really viable to level through your tradeskill, and even now I believe it's still better to go hunting.
That's only if you assume that "new" players are experienced at RPGs or MMORPGs. ;)
I assume all noobs don't know crap because my experience of non-IT literate people has shown it to be mostly true
:lol:
True but I think it's fair that KK (or any developer) assume some basic level of knowledge and leave anything below that to player-to-player help or natural selection. Otherwise where do they draw the line - explaining about the "any" key?
More and more KK is making this a game for the long time players only.
It's now realy hard for a new player to start the game, and level up, since he has to go to great lengths to get his leveling weapons etc.
Then there's this new gr thing, so many other moneysinks.
I don't see how people won't get frustrated with the game withing a week or so, the way it is now.
How many new players will ever get to go outside the cities? I know it took me a while to go outside into the wastelands, and it was when i found out how big neocron realy is.
Right now, players go broke before that point, or just stop playing as they can't find good weapons anymore.
Not to mention there is'nt many constructors or researchers with acces to the bp's for weapons that are not working out of techhaven, and which noob has that gr, or even knows about the place?. Then the high level tradeskillers usualy don't do a lot of business for the pisspoor new players anyway.
They prefer doing 3 tl 150bp's and getting a straight 30k instead of a poor tip from a noob, for which they probably have to genrep twice too.
We need someone else with the motivation and the brains, like lupus, that looks into the situation with the mindset of a new player, and then goes and fixes things the right way.
I agree 100%.
NC2 was supposed to have an enhanced "newbie experience"
And yeah, Lupus>All :cool:
@ Carinth - PPUs are about the only class I can see having a hard time with cash. Hunting with SCs is a joke and team cash barely covers boosters.
APUs, for instance only really need to buy 3 or 4 spells before they get to rares and there are no shortage of players that will advise you on that or even give you them for free. I levelled my APU without any external financial support and he was always well off even when he was chewing boosters like candy.
Weapon users can recyc ammo to keep outgoings low and selling loot easily covers the cost of new guns once you get into the aggie cellars. Below that it does suck unless you farm plants but that's only an hour or two unless you refuse to speak to any other players (the minute you do they'll tell you to leave the damn flies alone).
If the game explained every little thing like this where would the fun of learning come from?
Tradeskills have improved enormously - IMO research is now completely viable as a levelling and earning method. If Lupus can get the others to that state I'll be very impressed as they are harder wrt the game mechanics but I know he's looking into it. "Tips" are still an issue and I know what you mean about the exploit thing though I think it only really served to accelerate the innevitably stabilisation of the economy.
True but I think it's fair that KK (or any developer) assume some basic level of knowledge and leave anything below that to player-to-player help or natural selection. Otherwise where do they draw the line - explaining about the "any" key?
Which key is the any key ? I get that alot, press any key ... still not found it
You should take your own advice and think outside the box... Gr'ing right back to where you died at is not a good idea. Wether its a mob or a player camping the spot. You shouldn't go back till you're recovered and ready to fight.
I always find it absurd when people complaing about being ganked repeatedly, it's not like anyone forced you to gr right back to an unsafe gr were you know a hostile is waiting to kill you.
No, this was the idea for introducing the QuickBelt. You were meant to come back and kill the hacker who was hacking your Quick Belt. If you do now, you'll loose more stuff. I really can't believe that this auto backpack recovery has been implemented like this. A cheap fix that impacts game play.
No, this was the idea for introducing the QuickBelt. You were meant to come back and kill the hacker who was hacking your Quick Belt. If you do now, you'll loose more stuff. I really can't believe that this auto backpack recovery has been implemented like this. A cheap fix that impacts game play.
I still don't see the "fix"
What has it done? I still get the same FPS, the same FRE's, mem leak, crashes, syncs, right click bug...
What was it supposed to fix again? :confused:
Disturbed21
15-11-04, 21:51
I still don't see the "fix"
What has it done? I still get the same FPS, the same FRE's, mem leak, crashes, syncs, right click bug...
What was it supposed to fix again? :confused:
Exactly, one way or another ppl will adapt but the main point is why is this change needed? What did it add to the game play or preformance of the servers?
And noone is saying hey I like to go back to the same gr and get repeatedly killed so I can whine on Trade N-C. But prior to this change if you got ganked near a gr, you could potentially GR back and try to grab your quickbelt while they were hacking. But that option has been taken away. You will drop more items or be overweight.
I guess from one point of view, the killers now get more time to hack or get multiple belts to hack. :angel:
Very true.
Now you know if you do kill someone, he won't be back for his belt. PKers win in this case.
The best thing is to PK someone in his appartment :) Fool he who opens the door to a stranger.
Jake Cutter
16-11-04, 08:45
Not sure if this has been mentioned or not...one downside to getting your gear back automatically...is that if you were near your carry limit before you died, with 40% SI you're pretty much immobile. An inconvenience if you are LE'd or GR to a safezone genrep. Possibly fatal if you aren't LE'd and take a chance at an unsafe genrep.
Regards,
Jake Cutter
OMG sex agaisnt teh backpacks :D this was relly good i think! Gratz
Although a valid point, this change is not really about cash, (barring newbie backpack losses), but it is about the change in gameplay. You might as well do away with QuickBelts altogether since there is little chance you can get your QB dropped item(s) back.
[ edited ]
(I have read this thread and I notice that we are all complaining about this change of gameplay.)
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