View Full Version : Onoz! Attack of the "Whiners Who Get Classes Nerfed!"
I can smell it coming already.
People are beginning to mutter those words under their breath again...
"Monk'O'Cron" echoes in each of our minds, and people are already talking about making dynamic, gameplay-hurting changes to them (again).
"Give monks a reticile."
Are you nuts? Trying to introduce a reticile on a class that's run without them for two and a half + years? Trying to change the way a class operates on the core level after such a long period of time only results in nerfs, LOMs, and rerolls.
What the fuck is wrong with this community?
WHY DO YOU ALL WANT NERFS WHEN YOU DON'T LIKE HOW SOMETHING PLAYS AGAINST YOUR CHARACTER?
And then after KK nerfs, you bitch, moan, whine, and complain until it slowly makes its way back up the ladder.
Hey, I have a _Great_ idea! How about we work on making OTHER CLASSES WORTH PLAYING?
Why do you all whine when you don't like something? Why don't you think about ways to make the class YOU play WORTH playing, and LEAVE THE PEOPLE PLAYING THE OTHER CLASS TO DECIDE IF THEY'RE HAVING FUN?
What constructive comes out of complaining about something, and then having it smashed into the ground?
Instead of threads like:
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=118004
and
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=118002
Why don't we see CONSTRUCTIVE threads that make suggestions for future theme weeks? Why aren't people talking about changing stat bonuses and requirements to make things easier to cap, or reducing specialization so EVERYONE can have fun with their characters?
In KK doing the "Theme Weeks", they are proving that they are finally ready to show dedicated, listening ears to the way the customer thinks and speaks. So, tell me...
Why are you people bitching about nerfing? Why aren't you trying to find ways to make your class more competitive, fun, and interesting so that you can be just as "overpowered" as the class you're trying to nerf? That way, everyone's powerful, but balanced, and we don't need to bounce back and forth for several months as KK tries desperately to fix the initial impact of their sledgehammer nerfs.
NERF = BAD
BOOST = GOOD
Get it? Got it? Good.
Bugs Gunny
08-11-04, 10:34
Boost is not good, as in the end you would have to boost the mobs etc.. and the circle keeps on going round till they have to up health max to 999 ....
Like nerfing is any better?
Nerfing only makes people feel unhappy because they're losing something they enjoy.
Boosting makes the people who were neglected feel much happier, and the people who were not nerfed don't feel bad, because their shit wasn't touched in the least.
I fail to see your point either way, because the goal of boosting is not to bump classes over each other slightly over and over again, but to bump them to a deadneck tie.
IF classes were only boosted to the point where every class was needed just as much as the other, and just as fun to play as one another, we would have eternal bliss.
By nerfing, you throw that objective straight out the window.
By boosting, you bring hope to the "doomed", and underbalanced classes (IE Drones) and make the game more fun overall for a large variety of players.
How can you not agree with me?
There is a counter to that argument ... runaway positive feedback loops.
Boost X, Y needs a boost.
Boost Y, Z needs a boost.
Boost Z, X needs a boost.
...
...
and so on towards infinity.
ONOZ !, you might think . That would be *terrible* and KK would never fall into such a glaringly obvious trap !
And then you recall the history of PPUs.
There's a reason a good proportion of the game is now simply unavailable to anyone without a PPU buttplug:-
Increase PPU powah -> Increase mob powah -> Increase PPU powah -> Increase mob powah ...
Did you spot the point where it all went tits up ?
As a result of the short sighted policy that brought about that particular loop runner scaled variables and mob scaled variables are now *hugely* different. Yet a PPU's variables are scaled to cope with both.
That being said - "nerf to fuck everything that even remotely looks like a Jawa" is an equally unhelpful methodology.
This issue needs *subtle* attention, and from past experience we know that KK just doesn't *do* subtle.
Even so - something needs to happen ... the balance of the monk class compared to the other 3 is quite simply broken. Period.
All the endless playground posturing that goes on about about "g3t sum skillz0rs !" and whatever just doesn't cut it.
Look at the numbers - if one or two compulsive whiners were the only people remarking on it, or there were only one or two battles that were nearly all monkehs then we could take them as aberrations from the norm that would average out.
That obviously isn't the case, and can be empirically verified by any observer that has eyes and can count.
One might just have to bite the bullet and accept that some part of the monk equation needs a negative nerf to start to at least bring it within sight of the rest of the game's runner mechanics.
Bugs Gunny
08-11-04, 11:11
Because there's two kinds of levels you need to consider:
Dammage versus players
Dammage versus mobs
Dammage versus mobs is the most stable and your whole thing has that as standard.
So in your case, to compensate for monks, we have to boost several other classes or weapons, meaning a lot of work and finetuning, while dammage versus mobs as it is now is perfect.
It's a lot easier and makes more sense to adjust one class's subclass.
I started leveling my first ever apu, just to see what it's like. Honestly, it's too easy, i outdammage every spy that's higher level than me and with the right armor i can take a good beating too. I've seen capped apu's that run like the wind, who can cast at snipe distances and basicaly take down everything that can't dish out enough dammage to them before they are incinerated from lightning.
really dont get me started
Good post from Kurai, pretty much agree with that. @threadstarter, you'll also find that there are plenty of anti-nerf threads like this one, just not as many as the nerf threads. No one likes their characters being messed with, but its happened a lot.
For what its worth, the game is more balanced now than it has been in the past, although I agree that the ppu/apu combo is a problem.
One might just have to bite the bullet and accept that some part of the monk equation needs a negative nerf to start to at least bring it within sight of the rest of the game's runner mechanics.
Yeah. Remember back in the day when Psi spells capped at 342% or 376% or something funky? Then it was raised hideously high to 576% PPU, 648% APU. Which means that while PPUs and APUs would be crippled in the opposite skill, as a reward for specialization they were now hideously powerful because of such high caps. Why? In an effort to encourage people to seperate into PPU or APU in the hopes that hybrids would disappear. Then you had all this switching around of skill effects, spell mechanics, nerfed psi boosters, etc. all in an effort to try and discourage the rampant hybridism.
Well the final and ultimate solution was reached. Increase the APU/PPU requirements so high that hybrids would never be as super powerful as they were (still mourning this btw, but if the other 90% of the community is happy......:(), while at the same time not hurting pure APUs or PPUs in the end game.
So now here we are with hybrids nowhere near the problem they once were. Yet here we are with APUs and PPUs a HUGE problem. Great. We got rid of hybrids but now we have something just as bad.
You know, when KK was making all these changes, it seems like they were just rushing all these changes out to try and slaughter hybrids as fast as possible with absolutely no thought as to what would happen when people finally went APU or PPU. It's like they were digging through their drawer looking for something, tossing stuff over their head behind them not looking where it was landing So they finally found what they were looking for, but they didn't notice this gigantic pile that was building up just waiting to topple over and obliterate not only them, but everything else in the vicinity. One problem was solved, but at what cost?
So anyways, if only this final hybrid solution had been reached in the first place, we might not be where we are with this massive pure monk problem. But in short, I agree - fix what's broke, don't fix what's not broke in an attempt to indirectly fix what *is* broke.
Well, as for my thread which ft. the video, it wasnt the case of NERF! its more of the case of fixing other classes so they are:
1) viable damage wise (APU should still deal the most damage)
2) make each class as have a unique skill worth having
The reason its turned to monk'o cron is because an apu/ppu team is devastating.. back on saturn me and descent could take on the entire TG faction and come out alive.. what does that say? :eek: If other classes had something that could prove as uselful then maybe peeps would consider picking a class and 'specialising' rather than following the trend of the 'powerful' class.
i think monks are fine atm well apus are trust me even with ppu buffs and heals u can get him down
and a gentank with a heal on and sd is godamn hard to kill
now i think heavy tanks should get a boost seeing as they are the most underpowered class atm i think make the heavy weapons do like 25% more damage or so and will be worth playing a slow moving tank as u can do some damage
ppus tho are a totally different matter i dont know how to quite fix them tho
i think monks are fine atm well apus are trust me even with ppu buffs and heals u can get him down
Agreed, I think we've both experienced this.. And when that heal drops boy are you in trouble.. :lol:
A gentank with a heal on and sd is godamn hard to kill
True.. a damn melee tank takes the piss when they got full S/D and a heal
i think heavy tanks should get a boost seeing as they are the most underpowered class atm i think make the heavy weapons do like 25% more damage or so and will be worth playing a slow moving tank as u can do some damage
Yup, The HC tank is becoming a rareity because they simply do to little damage for the run-speed nerf! although still playable MC is always the prefered option.
ppus tho are a totally different matter i dont know how to quite fix them tho
who does, some people debate that PPU's are over-powered.. They should be able to surivive harsh scenarios of attack. They are a healing class nothing else. without them fights would be cut short.
Yeap, I agree. Some things need boost.
Droners will be overpowered after the theme week, but GOD - FINALLY SOMEONE IS PLAYING SOMETHING ASIDE FROM A MONK!!
(I play a monk btw :p)
Quite frankly PPUs do not belong to this type of games. If the game is about real time forst-shooter PvP, then all the characters should be balanced with one another but not relatively to some special class (PPU). Not any class should have a decisive role in a combat. Maybe if PPUs are removed all together, APU's unbalancing wont stick out that much as with a PPU glued to their ass. But its really hard to remove them right now, because then you would have to adjust all other things like mob damage in so many special zones which is very hard to do without making a mistake here and there. But since there are still so many things in the game to fix I just hope that one day KK will still do what they should and remove the damn PPUs :angel:
[...bla bla bla...]
NERF = BAD
BOOST = GOOD
Get it? Got it? Good.
Yeah, lets boost all classes except monks. Dont you think they would still whine? Why not just make guns instakill, that would be cool. Everyone would have the same chances!!
How bout you stop whine and post some ideas yourself?
:wtf:
/edit
Well, lets be some more constructive.
At first i got lots of characters. All classes. Overpowered monks, gimped tradeskillers, combat spies, a lowtech PE, tanks.
And there seriously is something wrong with classes that dont have to aim. And dont need line of sight. And do fuckloads of damage or turn every normal character into a godlike killingmachine.
Why rework everything else and not that one problem?
Lets increase h-c damage and runspeed, rifle and pistol damage! Give every class a gun to kill PPUs! Boost!!!11 Fights sometimes still take more then 10 seconds and that just cant be!1
Bleh.
Yeah what kid said :wtf:
what do you want them to do. add a new rare called the golden cock to the rare pool?
golden cock - Kills monks, useless against other classes
Mourns my HC tank:(
Get rid of run speed cap FFS (or reduce it significantly), no one plays this class anymore, why bother? I just play my APU now. HC is pretty useless TBH, the cons far outweigh the pros. I love fighting HC tanks on my APU. and even if I'm getting a battering (if my apoc hasn't burn't them to a crisp) I just run away, it's not like they can catch me ;-)
Thats one more class balanced.
Melee tanks, don't touch em pls! Do alot of dmg, take alot of dmg. Run fast, nuff said!
Spy's are pretty good atm imho. So many people playing then, they must be! I know some very very good spys (Minimess), they rock AND stealth. OK they go down hard when fighting an APU monk but hey they can stealth out if push comes to shove.
PE's, this is a funny one. I like playing my low tech pistol PE and sometimes I get a good PK but he's not my APU by any stretch of the imagination! Its a fun class but lacking direction. I think they always will TBH due to their nature as the generalist of NC.
PPU's, shame people have to use them. Its a nice feeling being an APU with full buffs tho ;-)
DjSKum
really dont get me started
from one hybrid to another, i agree.
StealthyAssassi
08-11-04, 14:27
now i think heavy tanks should get a boost seeing as they are the most underpowered class atm i think make the heavy weapons do like 25% more damage or so and will be worth playing a slow moving tank as u can do some damage
o_O
H-C compared to R-C: (I play a rifle spy so I tell you how it looks to me)
H-C tanks do more damage, H-C tanks run faster. Why? They can spend much more CON and DEX on runspeed.
I see a lot of H-C tanks at every OP fight - and rarely any melee ones. I see few Spies and I never see PEs.
o_O
H-C compared to R-C: (I play a rifle spy so I tell you how it looks to me)
H-C tanks do more damage, H-C tanks run faster. Why? They can spend much more CON and DEX on runspeed.
I see a lot of H-C tanks at every OP fight - and rarely any melee ones. I see few Spies and I never see PEs.
Id say its half and half i see many Melee at op fights. A rifle spy shouldnt be able to go up against a tank 1 v1 some do using inq setups which is good but a un buffed spy versus a hc tank should not be. As a rifle spy you should use range and the fact you can stealth to your advantage.
As for tanks especially HC this was the class that won the ceres wars . One man army's . What the have become is a meat shieled and are only ever at there best in 1 v 1 combat but when does that happen once in a blue moon cause most people play with a ppu rammed up them.
I ALWAYS see melee at op fights! ALWAYS! You been to many OP fights mate?
Maybe reduce the effect of para on HC tanks or smthg?
Dj
StealthyAssassi
08-11-04, 14:48
I ALWAYS see melee at op fights! ALWAYS! You been to many OP fights mate?
Maybe reduce the effect of para on HC tanks or smthg?
Dj
In the last week I have been to at least one or two OP fights a day. Average is 1 melee tank. Maybe 2 sometimes, but still far more H-C tanks.
really dont get me started
start hinch :)
for old times sake :D
Whatever you balance will give rise to the next unbalanced class. It will happen - things will get tweaked and everyone else will have thier time as a god.
No one will complain when it's thier time, but they'll be sure to piss and moan when it's someone elses.
yeeeh, boost the monks, nerf tanks spys pe's
ps: give monks a reticle, or take away the reticle at tanks spys pe's
QuantumDelta
08-11-04, 16:08
Whatever you balance will give rise to the next unbalanced class. It will happen - things will get tweaked and everyone else will have thier time as a god.
No one will complain when it's thier time, but they'll be sure to piss and moan when it's someone elses.
That's why 90% of the ideas that have been put forward with any real thought actually flop, because they're too complex for the masses.
KK don't play the game enough to notice the finess of the tweaks, it's not, and never was, a case of boost or nerf.
It's a case of manipulate.
No one can ever see that though.
Dribble Joy
08-11-04, 16:15
I have been so close to quitting this game.
People are either so totally biased about one thing or another, completely without forsight or (which is even worse) refuse to think about anything that is put forward and right it off out of hand.
As a result even if KK had the balls to sort it out, they can't because mmorpgs are designed by n00bs (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=117766).
I imagine several of the people here will right me off out of hand due to thier percieved hypocrisy they see in this post.
Pff. My favorite char is my monk on Terra, and I say give him a reticle. Read the rest of my reticle post in that thread before going off the deep end, Nvidia. Also, that monks haven't had a reticle thus far is hardly a valid argument against it.
Ooooh I love monk nerf threads! Nomatter how strong monks are, there's always demands to nerf them. I especialy like when people try to claim they're not sci fi or they're not cyberpunk. It's also fun to repeat myself 500 times because people say things like "instant aiming" or "monks don't aim". I swear, I could write a bot to autorespond to this stuff.
Ooooh I love monk nerf threads! Nomatter how strong monks are, there's always demands to nerf them. I especialy like when people try to claim they're not sci fi or they're not cyberpunk. It's also fun to repeat myself 500 times because people say things like "instant aiming" or "monks don't aim". I swear, I could write a bot to autorespond to this stuff.
shame you cant sms bind out of game eh?
Heavyporker
08-11-04, 16:51
This fucks me up.
In the first place, it was BECAUSE THE GENTANKS WERE MEAT SHIELDS that Neocron City won the first war.
And honestly, fuck this up-the-damage of other classes, ffs. You want to make H-C Gentank appealing? How about newer and deeper roles for him to take up? New toys to keep it interesting, like the stationary shield someone suggested ages ago?
or, maybe... we could just think on NOW and remember that a Gentank/PPU combo is just fucking lethal.
It's also fun to repeat myself 500 times because people say things like "instant aiming" or "monks don't aim". Not sure where you were going with that, but on my monk, if I have a target box, I hit mouse 1, and target gets fried by my HL. Not much else goes on really.
I have never cared about nerfs. I've been nerfed repeatedly and continued on for quite some time now. This being said I do NOT feel that there needs to be a massive "nerf" of the monks, but a handful of things should probably happen to make everything work well to balance the system.
1) Reduce the effectiveness of foreign cast PPU spells. This will keep PPU's near immortal but keep the resists and health pools of all other classes more balanced with what they naturally have. I simply don't believe that because a PPU is around everyone should be totally unkillable by mobs and other groups of players without a PPU teamed.
2) Slight reduction in either the range or rate of fire of damage dealing spells would *probably* even out the role of APU's by leaving them as the highest damage dealing class while leaving them in a reasonable area on the damage scale.
3) Let me clarify here that I do not feel people should be as pissed off about para as many people are, but a tiny reduction in its role in small combat situations would be appropriate in my mind. I feel that while it should glue you to the floor like it does, it should not last near as long as it does to reduce the dependence on drugs that currently exists.
I really don't care whether or not any of these slight changes occur or even if there is (or is not) a nerf, these are just my opinions, I will probably coninue playing primarily APU and Tank.
Ah, the topic that sadly will not die until NC dies.. because class balance is such a core part of MMORPGs. I can't help wonder if we went wrong somewhere near the, ah, very beginning. The design phase, to be exact.
Picture, if you will, a bunch of designers sitting at a table at 2am. Pizza and Cola cans everywhere, and they're scrutinising the Neocron design document. You may notice more PE digs in there than for any other class. If you don't like them, just gloss over them. No one but me cares about that stuff anyway ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
NC 1 Class Design:
Designer A: *yawns* Ok, whats next?
Designer B: Gah. Classes.
Designer A: Classes. Right. What do we have so far?
Designer B: Lets see. Monks, Tanks and Spies.
Designer C: And PE's! Don't forget PE's!
Designer A: Shut up designer C.
Designer C: Awww..
Designer D: Ok, lets start with Spies? They sound cool
They all shuffle some papers and find the notes on the "Spy" class. They read the notes in silence. Cola is swigged, and pizza is eaten.
Designer A: Ok, I get it. So these guys are smart, right? And agile too, real agile.
Designer B: Yeah, like Bond, only they dont have to be British.
Designer D: So what's their angle? How does this translate to the game we have here? (Holds up a bunch of pages)
They all think for a moment.
Designer B: Ok, if we go with the design as it is, we're going to have about ten base weapon types, with different levels to each.. so lets use the Spies as benchmarks for dexterity based weapons. Not only can he use them all, he's the most skilled and gets the best results from them.
Designer D: Yeah, and they get gadgets, too! Remote operated drones and stuff for assasinations!
Designer A: But what about tradeskills?
Designer B: Well, they can do them too.. but it will have to impact on their combat skills obviously. Actually, the Spy should be quite weak. He's not designed for the brutality of open combat.
Designer A: But how weak should he really be?
Designer D: Well if we're sticking to this points buy system, then really, he's about this tough by default.
Designer D demonstrates by poking his finger through a piece of paper. Everyone nods in agreement. Designer A takes a few notes.
Designer A: Ok, next we'll look at..
Somewhat optimistically, designer C turns to the PE page.
Designer A: Tanks.
Empty Cola cans are tossed in the bin. Or near the bin at any rate. More cans are opened and everyone begins reviewing the Tank notes. Designer C begins sobbing quitely.
Designer A: Right, these guys are the super-soldiers, I get that. Any thoughts?
Designer D: Well really, these guys are to fighters what Spies are to rogues.
Designer A: Hey we talked about this, no fantasy references!
Designer D: But it's true! The Spy is agile and smart, and the Tank is at the opposite end of the scale.
Designer B: So, strong and tough then? But dumb enough that it balances it out with the Spy?
Designer A: Yeah.. hmm. We don't want to make him too dumb though, because most people that pick up this game are going to gravitate towards this class. What weapons do we have lined up for him?
Everyone begins flipping through the notes again.
Designer B: Here we go. Cannons and melee weapons.
Designer D: Yeah, melee weapons. Swords and axes and stuff. The kind of thing you can take a Dra..
Designer A glares at Designer D across the table. Designer D shuts up.
Designer A: Ok, I see how we can balance cannons. High damage but cumbersome, slow them right down so they're like turrets. That will give everyone a fighting chance, right? But how they hell do we balance melee? Ranged vs Melee never works.
Designer B: Hey, these Tanks are tough, right? Well they'll just hunker down, stare at the ground and just try to wade through the damage. And if they get up close, that should mean instant death for the other guy.
Designer A: Yeah, that sounds fair.
Designer D: Yeah, BAM! Skewered! Good night Gracie!
Designer A takes some more notes while everyone else eats their body weight in cold pizza, topping it off with more Cola. No one even notices that Designer C left the room. Since there is only one class left, the remaining designers turn to the page detailing Monks.
Designer A: Monks, now I love these guys. These guys wield the real power.
Designer D: Some might say they were an awful lot like.. Mages?
Designer A snatches up an unopened can of Cola and throws it at Designer D. The can leaves a dent in Designer D's skull and he falls off his chair.
Designer A: So, how are we going to implement the monks?
Designer B: This is a tough one. Our combat system is really designed around the traditional FPS model, and that doesnt do the spell.. ah, Psi casting process any justice.
Designer A: So why can't we bypass it?
Designer B: Bypass it? But won't that unbalance things a little bit?
Designer A: Look, we've all read the backstory to Neocron. Monks are supposed to be hard core. They do stuff with their minds that are uncomprehendable to people who aren't monks. They even ruled the city at one point. We can't play down their awesome powers just for the sake of balance.
Desginer B: I'm not so sure.. I mean, if it doesn't work, we're going to be tweaking it every which way from Sunday and the Monk players aren't going to like that, especially with our proposed "Make them pay for our mistakes" policy. Players don't like having their cheese moved.
Designer A: Look, we'll just go with it. We can always change it later.. this is just the first version of the design document after all.
Designer D staggers to his feet and feebly waves a hand in the air.
Designer D: ..RighT oN....
Designer A: See, D agrees with me.
Designer C opens the door and comes back into the room. He's still clutching the page with the PE class design on it.
Designer A: C?
Designer C: Yes?
Designer A: Good, we're agreed then.
Designer B: O-kay. Well, I guess it's okay then. We're done here, right?
Designer A: Yup, thanks for your time folks, you can all go home.. but I wan't to see you all again at 8 am sharp.
Designer C sighs.
Desginer A: Oh, right. Fine. PE's then.
Designer D sags to the floor again, taking his copy of the design document with him. Most of the pages spill across the floor, but he seems quite happy with the arrangement.
Designer A: Right, so the PE is a class that can't be as strong or as tough as a Tank, nor can he be as smart or as agile as the Spy. Naturally, his grasp of Psi can't be as good as the Monk. What did you have in mind, C?
Designer C reaches into his folder and produces a document the size of a telephone directory.
Designer B: You know what? If this was Counter Strike, the PE would be, like, the spectator.
Designer A: Yeah. No, wait! He'd be the hostages!
They both laugh, but designer C ignores them and opens the first page of his document. He clears his throat and begins reading aloud.
Designer C: The Private Eye is easily the most versatile of the classes, as he is able to utilise almost every piece of technology in the Neocron universe without suffering from any particular weakness unlike the other classes. By way of compromise, he also lacks their individual strengths, so he must..
Designer A: Yeah yeah, I get it. He's a JOAT.
Designer D sits up right with a jolt, sending paper flying and knocking a can of Cola on the desk. It begins leaking over the long list of publishers who are interested in publishing the game, and only one name is readable by the time anyone takes notice.
Designer D: bARdz!.. ThEy aRE tEH BArdz!
Designer D suddenly realises what he just said, and covers his face instinctively.. but nothing happens.
Designer A: Sod it, that will do. Tell the modellers that at some point, PE's might end up forming rock-bands. Make them look good, and we'll worry about what they can and can't do later.
Designer C: No, you don't unde..
Designer A: Ok everyone that's a wrap!
Designer B: You know what, I'm going to play a Monk when we start testing this baby
Designer D: I like the sound of the Tank, tbh.
Designer A: Did you just SAY tbh instead of saying the words?
Designer D: Jup.
Designer A: It's like I'm talking to a ten year old. What was that, C?
Designer C: ..and the horse you rode in on!
NC 2 Class Design:
Designer A: Hey, should we review the classses before we release NC2?
Designer B: Meh. I've got a shit load of bugs to fix, not that the community will give a damn.
Designer D: Meh. I've got a ton of new items to design and implement by the end of the week.
Designer A: C?
Designer B: Designer C quit.
Designer A: Alrighty then. Consider the classes approved for NC2. Now back to work!
You know what this Monk thing (Yay! / Boo. Delete as appropriate) reminds me of? The Jedi in SWG. It's meta-game thinking vs the desire and need to balance gameplay, and it's pretty obvious that the meta-game thinking won during the class design process.. but ah, what can you do. Trust that they'll get it right before you leave, and if not, find another game and be let down by the same problems under a prettier engine :D
LOL Siygess, that was great. :D
I don't understand your confidence meter btw... is it almost fully towards 'stay'?
Not sure where you were going with that, but on my monk, if I have a target box, I hit mouse 1, and target gets fried by my HL. Not much else goes on really.
Unless they moved while you were clicking, unless you're on uneven ground, unless you were running(ppu), unless you're out of psi, etc. There's a lot going on, which is my point. People focus on one thing and forget that monks have tons of other little nerfs or bugs or annoyances which actualy do balance them out. You can't make blanket statements about a single aspect of the monk.
Thats correct, Glok. It was lower, but the positive implementation of the first theme week (thus far) has renewed my confidence somewhat. I'm just praying that it's not false hope :)
It's a simple fact that an APU+PPU combo is more effective than the sum of it's parts to an exaggerated degree compared to any other.
There is no other 2 character team permutation that can match it.
All KK have done is create an even stronger old-time ludicrously overpowered Hybrid ... but with 4 legs :rolleyes:
All the old fundamental and profound problems are still there and it's got to the stage where it now requires a very substantial change to rectify.
It's something they *should* have addressed with many small, carefully judged, finely graduated tweaks along the way.
Backing themselves into a position that now requires a fucking great NidHammer[tm] to escape from was not the wisest move I've ever seen.
The cumulative changes have resulted in a situation that requires either a re-working of the entire scale of damage of eveything in the gameworld (sort of like a currency devaulation) or they have to take apart the mechanics of the monk class and start again from the ground up.
Maybe even *both*, to a degree.
My preferred idea would be to re-work the spell line's skillpoint investments to a degree that makes it nearly impossible to justify speccing a Pure, even (perhaps especially)when in combination with an opposite type monk.
The optimum solution should be a Hybrid ... but [BUT !] balanced to a point relative to the median of the other classes, NOT the pures or mobs
(which in any case are now scaled, at the higher levels, to match a pure monk's excessive extremes).
Naturally we need to avoid the ridiculous Hybrid situation we had before - we need to learn from history that simply taking the extremes at either end of the spectrum, raising them further, and separating them out to two characters just doesn't work.
Edit: Excellent post Siygess :D
rofl, that was funny as hell siygess
All KK have done is create an even stronger old-time ludicrously overpowered Hybrid ... but with 4 legs :rolleyes:
Thanks for finding the words for what's been on my mind for quite some time now.
That's exactly what a PPU and an APU are.
All KK have done is create an even stronger old-time ludicrously overpowered Hybrid ... but with 4 legs
Yup with voice coms it works better than hybrid and thats because the PPU part can be done at the same time as the APU part. Heal APU buddy Parra damage boost Target and the whole time the APU is hitting him with HL.
Its never the bloody APU I'm scared of its the parra shocking and DBing lamer in a blue cloak O_o
One on the main problem regarding PPU i think is that their heal is a regen !
They should be insta heal for an amount of hit points based on the spell capp. Only heal sanctum should be regen.
As it is now, an apu can come: get a holy heal, and then go fight.
Holy heal is too powerfull because it is a regen and not instant. 8|
So you can constantly throw holy heal on everyone, whether they are full life or not.
Btw , I'm mainly ppu my self. PPU is not too powerfull, it is the edge it gives to APU that is a problem. And apu in itself , is not a problem.
The problem is that a capped APU with a capped PPU strapped to his ass is a 100% capped APU damage wised and 50% capped PPU defense wised. If this is not hybrid what is it !
APU+PPU > Hybrid 10 times.
Make holy heal insta heal for an amount of hit points should help balance the thing. Leave heal group and sanctum as regen.
Just my 2 cents :)
what id find amusing about siygess story is if nid came along ad edited to lot with the message " Spam, N" after siygess had typed all that out.
NOTE ON THAT STORY: people actually SAYING internet abbreviations is fucking annoying, ya?
@ above solution: not a bad idea, would also be a step towards removing the fucked up 'noob buffing'... erm... "tactic"
Perhaps they should reduce the dmg but in return give them the ability to use the ppu spells that tanks can
EDIT: (makes them weaker with PPU but just as strong against other classes when they are on their own)
who does, some people debate that PPU's are over-powered.. They should be able to surivive harsh scenarios of attack. They are a healing class nothing else. without them fights would be cut short.
yes thank god for ppus.... how fun is it to prepare for a op war and then die 4 seconds into the fight from mass hl spam. as a hc tank you would be dead meat....... blam blam legs gone.. blam select gr.
with the amount of apus we have running around op wars would be soo bad... just look at apu duels.....
@deac: The plague of APUs is a *consequence* of the problem, not the *cause* of the problem.
@all: Like I keep saying - it's the whole "inflation spiral" of damage dealing and subsequent mandatory PPU requirement and further damage inflation to cope with the growing PPU numbers - it's WAAAAAY out of control.
4 second deaths are a direct consequence of having to scale offensive mechanics against PPU derived defences.
The PPU effect is so great that without it you are not simply put at "somewhat of a disadvantage" - you are indeed 4 second *fucked*. Game Over. Go Home. Your Day is Done.
Without those overscaled PPU factors there wouldn't be any *need* for the humungous damage delivery.
Ho hum.
I'm starting to believe more and more that the whole framework is already in a terminal nosedive. :(
So much of the game's core mechanics have been horribly overstretched to accomodate the damage/defence inflation that it would be a monstrous job to overhaul it all piece by piece.
I think it might just be easier to increase the baseline runner "Steel Skin" effect
(see http://neocron.ems.ru/resist.html for details if that term doesn't mean anything to you.)
Compare it to the way currency devaluation is used in economics to resurrect systems that have been irretrievably fucked by inflation.
[The "remote cast" Holy effects, especially Heal, would still need attention, naturally, to stop us heading off down the same road once again, but at least this way we are only left with smallish tweak tasks rather than having to rework every single feature in the game]
Thanks for finding the words for what's been on my mind for quite some time now.
That's exactly what a PPU and an APU are.
Yeah but they are a team not a single person like hybrids...unless they work together well then they will get killed in the end anyway...imo the team in theory is strong but depends on the skill on ppl behind the controls.
Yeah but they are a team not a single person like hybrids...unless they work together well then they will get killed in the end anyway...imo the team in theory is strong but depends on the skill on ppl behind the controls.You haven't quite grasped where that statement stemmed from, have you ? :p
Take two amazingly skilled players and make a team.
Any class permutation of 2 players you like as long as it's not APU/PPU.
Now go find an APU/PPU team to fight.
They don't have to be anything special - just "competent" will do.
You can go do it right now if you like. I can wait - after all... it'll only be a matter of 2 minutes before you come back sporting a new asshole you just had torn for you. ;)
What I was trying to say is that the problems that were brought about by Hybrids at their peak are *still here*, only worse.
The quality of any APU/PPU teamwork is irrelevant because the opposition will be using teamwork too. You can take it out of the equation because it's an equal requirement for both sides.
(eXo) Opaleye
08-11-04, 21:50
I have played and play all classes - and have this to say:
As a nearly capped tank I have (just last week in MB center) killed an apu/ppu*team* solo with my HC tank.
As a nearly capped apu with ppu taken on a few tank/ppu teams with mixed results of win /loss
So I am questioning peoples reasoning behind the nerf monks ideas.
All I have to say
At the most basic levels, what needs to be changed is how much ppu spells effect combat *and* who has access to these spells. It's my opinion that if monks are to be balanced, then only monks should be using psi. At most pe's could get away with some as they're supposed to be joats. I don't want to ever see a Tank buffing himself or healing himself. Before you get your panties in a bunch, let me specify that it's not just removing that should be done.. but it's that you shouldn't need ppu spells. Using a medkit and their own armor a Tank should be self sufficient, maybe some drugs too. I know it was long ago, but there was a time when this was true. Even pe's rarely used psi, it was only the monks. Unfortuanetly this was because monks were broken, but it doesn't hafta be that way.
So the first step is to rid non monks of most, if not all, ppu spells. Then the really difficult part is how to balance monks in relation to everyone else. Somehow psi has to be just as effective as what everyone else can do without psi. The only way to do this is to consider the hybrid as the typical monk, that's right most monks should be hybrids. The hybrid heal at its best should only perform aswell as the best medkit. The hybrid's shelter/deflector and boosters should compensate for their natural crappy resists/armor to bring them on par with what other classes have with resists/armor. That means that monk armor needs to be knocked down by quite a lot, we should not be able to have good defenses without our ppu spells.
That brings us to the wrench in the system, pure Monks. It's hard to balance them because if you boost hybrids, you skyrocket pures. If you reduce pure's, you gimp hybrids. Personaly I don't believe pure's should exist anymore, I think it's a failed experiment and the game simply does not support anyone that specialized. Instead all monks should be hybrids, with variation. The equivalant of a ppu will then be a hybrid who focused on ppu abilities. This ppu should not have a dozen spells that give him abilities beyond anyone else. He really should just have a few extra spells and his ability should only be about the same as a hybrid. The advantage of specialization *is* access to spells like ressurect and damage boost, which noone else could use.
Some other ideas are:
Divide up ppu's into more focused specializations. This might require new skills be added. You should have ppu's focused on large teams vs small teams, offensive debuffs vs defensive buffs. Basicly divy up the dozen different things a ppu is responsible for. Maybe not all of these even belong in the ppu camp, could give them to other classes. I really like the idea of turning the apu into offensive support, which he's supposed to be already. The apu would have para, debuff, dmg boost, etc. Consequently he'd have little to no offense like ppu's do. PPU's would then focus on the defensive support.
Idealy Hybrids shouldn't use PPU spells either, they should use their own line of hybrid spells which depend on both ppu and apu. As long as they're not using the same spells balance is much easier.
Ah yes - I like!
By making more classes of monks - it makes it harder to become a catch all - You will still have the mighty heals and the mega buffs - just not from one person - requires more coordination from these monks - but makes them just as effective (sometimes moreso if they all do specific jobs) But at the same time makes them easier to kill - But not ludicrously easy - and even if the healer is gone - the mega buff fella still lives - so sides aren't completely crippled - WHICH
handily does away with the Kill PPU -> APU -> rest tactic!
Nice one :)
Dribble Joy
08-11-04, 22:40
I have played and play all classes - and have this to say:
As a nearly capped tank I have (just last week in MB center) killed an apu/ppu*team* solo with my HC tank.
As a nearly capped apu with ppu taken on a few tank/ppu teams with mixed results of win /loss
Irrelevant. A mid level PE can take down an apu/ppu team, so can a capped PE, tank or spy. I would however seriously doubt the abilities of said apu/ppu teams.
Doesn't mean it is balanced.
You have to look past what can be done, and what happens in theory at maximum skill ability. Sounds a bit daft, but you have to, you can't balance on stuff like 'oh but my clannie's bro's aunt once killed an entire clan on his lvl4 ppu'.
@carinth
I once believed that the role of the ppu had no place in a game that employs a system such as NC's, that all blessed and holy spells (ppu) should be removed and make everyone a hybrid, with defences that at most will be the same as a PE's. I do still believe that to an extent, but I have been.. influenced by a cirtain player to the opinion that the role of the ppu (in whatever form) should not be removed.
I still don't know if it ever could without allways ruining balance overall.
My ppu idea that I had about a month ago would work (sort of) but the uber effects of ppu's spells (in the form of the holy heals primarily) remain.
There needs to be some sort of sacrifice somewhere.
What we want to avoid is a situation (the reasons for keeping in the ppu role), is where the team mechanic is removed, where a team is not simply a group of individually balanced players. Ie. avoid turning NC into a ut2k4 or PS with stats.
The different classes and subclasses should offer something unique to a team, not essential, but not be mere clones in what they can do.
I think everyone read too much into what I was saying.
I was only using monks as an example, as this seems to be the latest trend.
The flavored "overpowered" of the month threads are getting really old. I hate seeing them. And I was not asking for ways to make other classes more powerful in their weapons (at least that was not my intention).
I want to be able to go to an OP war, notice that there are no Private Eyes, and say, "Shit, guys, we're not gonna win this without a Private Eye."
I have always believed that ALL classes should depend off other classes in the way that an APU currently depends on a PPU.
With a system like this, everything IS balanced. If you use teamwork, and diversity in a fight, you should be rewarded with a win.
That's not how it works right now though - everything runs off the PPU to win a fight.
Going off that logic, if you introduce 'abilities' that each class has, abilities that ONLY that class can do, you are, in effect, promoting diversity and teamwork.
Giving each class its own set of special 'abilities' is the only way I can see this working. Each ability should be able to counter-balance an ability of another class, which should also be counterable by another ability of another class, and so on and so forth.
Giving each class its own set of abilities is also what I would consider a BOOST, not a NERF.
Basically, my entire point is that you don't need to change weapon damage values to boost a class. Just give them an ability or abilities that no other class possesses, and requires another class to counter-balance.
But we're talking about KK here, and they wouldn't even consider an idea that takes longer than 15 minutes to program into NC2, so we're right back to overpowered PPUs. Yay! :rolleyes:
Asurmen Spec Op
09-11-04, 02:15
Sir(or mam), I respect your opinion that the whining is bad and tbh thats my usual argument. However I do not belive any classes need boosts when all I see is balance... until the 500000000032312565678776362834762386512 ppus show up. I play PEs, I love PEs but I dont want PEs getting a boost because if ya know what your doing you can do fearful things. unfortuntaly the things to do to beat a ppu are horrible. In NC its a pvp based game so by that theory one person will beat another person if his skills are better right? and two people will beat the other two if they have more skill right? the two best PEs in the game vrs a counter-strike(aka noob) tank with his strap on comes and wins because he has the status of a god due to the PPU. That is my only gripe, if the monks had their blessed/holy removed(ppu) and the stats reset what would be the problem? all PPU ims become APU imps. PPU spells can be traded in for the APU counterpart.
ok do this.
put spirt sh back in
put dev back to what it was
make the lib what it used to be
boost the cs back up to a couple patches ago when it was accidently boosted
increase rof on pain easer
and erm make hybrids ubar again
oooooh and raise tl of shelter to 30, fuck you spys
I think the topic needs to be changed to
'Onoz! Attack of the "Doesn't want monks to be balanced!"'
:0
swish
but yeah, monks do need some reworking. You'd be crazy to not agree.
ok do this.
put spirt sh back in
put dev back to what it was
make the lib what it used to be
boost the cs back up to a couple patches ago when it was accidently boosted
increase rof on pain easer
and erm make hybrids ubar again
oooooh and raise tl of shelter to 30, fuck you spys
spirit mod, yes!
dev, hmm sure
lib, ya.
cs, err em maybe
pain easer, I rather have the termi reupped
and hybrids well... make hybrids the only choice for a monk maybe ? lol :0 err
as for the spy comment, no es cierto sir
Asurmen Spec Op
09-11-04, 05:09
what was the lib like?
I havent noticed any drop in mine so im sure this was back when A wasnt playing or B wasnt libbage
lets rename it
ATTACK OF THE KILLER TOMATTOS!
Remove Monks.
Problem solved.
Edit: And giving monks a reticle will NOT solve anything at all.
Blacksword
09-11-04, 05:14
by myself, with my apu, i cant kill an equal level tank if they see me first, which they do. i cant beat them inside a building. I play first person, i need line of sight, i cant cast around buildings. if i target someone right at the edge of something and they run around it as i finish casting it they get hit, but its far from just pointing to where i think they are and having the spell go off. maybe its different in third person, i dont know, i refuse to play in that mode. i can outright kill any spy even twenty levels above me if i see them first, and they dont stealth. if they see me first and snipe me, legs out, life out. only my fire spells have any real decent range. monks, whoever of us gets the first shot off wins. this is me solo, no ppu. i cant take many hits, apus kill me quickest, followed by hc tanks, mellee tank, pes, then spys. i cant solo a ppu either. cant even scratch em. i bombed smurfen for like 3 minutes while she was shopping for plants. and we chatted kinda while she was doing it. then she stood in p1 asking for pokes while everyone tore at her. granted no debuffs were present, and presently im cm heading towards crahn for epic, so i left her alone that time. that being said, she couldnt kill anyone herself.
go ahead, put a reticle on, put a timer on and watch the new dawn of stealth-o-cron. an apu by themselves wont be able to kill a good tank, or any stealth spy. 2 seconds, hit, spy stealths, two seconds to drop a barrel randomly cause theres no way you can know where they are at in two seconds.
ppu is what makes apu too powerful. otherwise, tanks have a shot at em, and stealthing spys have a good chance with suprise on thier side. ppus make everyone more powerful, they are supposed to. and as far as apus go, i only really see them in pp3, by zone lines, or by grs. where they can attack first. otherwise, ive fought tanks and spies in the wastelands exclusively.
every class has an advantage, i have a feeling people get upset when they dont kill someone, cause they feel like they should be able to kill everyone and never die. get over it, i killed with my spies in nc1 when i used to play, and now im killing with my first ever apu in nc2. if i make a tank, ill kill again. if apus are so overpowered, why have i not yet seen an enemy run the other way when we see each other, they all come charging.
lets keep nerfing stuff, keep buffing others, its worked really well so far :rolleyes: i remember when everyone was pretty well pleased with how classes were, then someone must have died to a superb player, bitched about it, another died to that character, bitched about it, and somehow that superb players class was overpowered and we are left with the mess we have today. ffs, if you are a spy and that apu or tank sees you, stealth the fuck away, dont get killed and bitch about how overpowered they are. set the fuck up and try it again. pes that bitch, get familiar with the fact that the very description of a pe is one that is good at most things but doesnt excel at any. tanks and apus, well its my impression tanks and apus have a good grasp on thier chars, the ones who dont, bitch about being weak. i think were mostly seeing problems with spies. learn how to stealth, its so hard to kill a good stealther. its why your class has it.
[PiN]Fluffy
09-11-04, 05:15
Let kk handle all this stuff. Everyone stop making useless threads. If the KK wants to change something they will if not nothing you can do about it. it;s that simple
Remove Monks.
Problem solved.
Get a clue ffs.
http://www.manbottle.com/pictures/cluepon.jpg
I say let the Holy Shelter/Def reduce psi damage going both ways though it
eg damage to the apu is reduced, but all spells cast outward get a damage penelty of, oh i dont know 10-15%?
this could also apply to holy heal, nerfing that a bit too.
Fluffy']Let kk handle all this stuff. Everyone stop making useless threads. If the KK wants to change something they will if not nothing you can do about it. it;s that simple
or you could just stfu and think, does kk op war? does kk pvp? No they need to hear community feedback or they're do some more stupid shit like nerfing the termi......
Idealy Hybrids shouldn't use PPU spells either, they should use their own line of hybrid spells which depend on both ppu and apu. As long as they're not using the same spells balance is much easier.
But that takes away the fun of making a hybrid (it makes you feel that you have a unique setup)
Get a clue ffs.
http://www.manbottle.com/pictures/cluepon.jpg
I say let the Holy Shelter/Def reduce psi damage going both ways though it
eg damage to the apu is reduced, but all spells cast outward get a damage penelty of, oh i dont know 10-15%?
this could also apply to holy heal, nerfing that a bit too.
Thanks for showing that you don't know what sarcasm is.
Bring Spirit ammo back...
Dj
Tidus_Origin
09-11-04, 12:15
Bring Spirit ammo back...
IMO, spirit ammo/mods made sniper spies actually be of some use at OP fights. Seeing as every (and I mean EVERY) runner in the whole game specs for force resist, with good PPUs around, sniper rifles are next to useless, because, by the time you've shot them and are ready to fire again (bearing in mind the 15spm average for SHs), your target (whether due to the aid of a PPU or by their own power) has completely healed the damage you just did, and are making a beeline towards you. Unless anyone wants to correct me?
P.S - This is by no means a whine session to get Spirit ammo back into the game, just stating the facts of using a sniper spy at OP fights from personal experience.
But that takes away the fun of making a hybrid (it makes you feel that you have a unique setup)
That wouldn't change.. How much apu or ppu you go for would decide which spells you have access too, wether they're more defensively inclined hybrid spells or offensively inclined.
Bring Spirit ammo back...
Dj
That's just as selfish and pointless as me asking for my 103/min rof holy para with 300m range back.
There are better ways to make rifle spies important then just being able to kill ppu's.
Thanks for showing that you don't know what sarcasm is.
Ironically, it was irony, not sarcasm :p
Bring Spirit ammo back...
Dj
AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!
Fuck no. I wasn't there when it was introduced, I sure as hell don't want to be there if it gets re-introduced.
That was such a shit idea, I'm so glad they've dropped it.
/ignore ridiculous ideas presented
*patiently waits for PPU theme week*
Jesterthegreat
11-11-04, 20:23
NERF = BAD
BOOST = GOOD
Get it? Got it? Good.
please give every class instant aiming, raptor damage, ppu defences and heals, and melee tank run speed...
im sure we would all love those "boosts" so much more than actually trying to fix anything :rolleyes:
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