View Full Version : Monk Poll
As we are playing in late Beta ;) (and its a paid one) I think its always not too late to change something. Been asking for this for ages.
I dont think the holy line of spells should be removed, but their effectiveness reduced when foreign cast.
Ie a holy heal/shelter/deflector would only have the effectiveness of a blessed version of the same spell when cast upon someone other than the caster. This leaves ppus with their innate ability to survive while somewhat weakening their role. (or at least keeping them busy ^^)
Another possible solution would be to make deflectors/shelters break after so much damage is absorbed instead of the time limit. Of course this doesnt help the ppu team>all situation but might put a lil dimple in it :D
QuantumDelta
08-11-04, 05:09
This is already the case, and what made PEs even more useless on the battlefield.
I dont think the holy line of spells should be removed, but their effectiveness reduced when foreign cast.
Ie a holy heal/shelter/deflector would only have the effectiveness of a blessed version of the same spell when cast upon someone other
Um, Shelter and deflector allready have a foreign cast penalty.
I like the idea of shelter dropping once so much damage is done to it rather than in being timer based, just give it an absorbion value for how much damage it can absorb. But at the same time add in the group shelter only effecting people in your group and you would have a nice effect to game play, do the same with group heal but make its healing less effect than the single target holy heal.
Dribble Joy
08-11-04, 05:10
Monk aim is not a problem at short range, rectilce lock for the other classes is negligable and it is lost slowly.
At long ranges however, it is a big issue. Pistols, heavy weapons and even rifles faced with a small quickly moving target and a slow recticle are at a serious disadvantage to the instant aiming of the monks.
I don't WANT to be someone who says 'give monks a recticle', but something needs to happen.
simple allow apu's to continue run casting... however reduce the rat of fire on the spell... therefore removeing the instant aiming bonus with monks but not complicating matters too much... unless this is a shit idea? in which case ignore meh ;)
SigmaDraconis
08-11-04, 06:44
how bout we lay off the poor fuckin APU's till someone pulls their head out of their ass and realises a melee tank is much more combat effective ( minus HAB )
PPU's tho need re-worked completely, its no quick fix...change the PPU you end up changing every aspect of the game :(
Give monks a reticle, make all foreign cast buffs 33% effective INCLUDING HEALS, and make all psi spells runcastable at any skill level.
The reticle would make monks subject to the same restrictions all other classes have to deal with aside from melee (melee shouldn't have a reticle). This is good.
Foreign buffs should be a LOT weaker. A LOT. It will still be good to have a PPU, but it won't make any tank or apu a killing machine. This means shelter, deflector, and heal. Stat buffs are fine.
If monks suddenly got a reticle, it would no longer do to have them either completely dependant on having very high stats on their modules in the case of the apu, or not able to runcast at all in the case of the ppu. With a reticle in place, all psi modules should runcast the same way as other weapons, ie 100% of the time, with hit/miss calculated based on how closed the reticle is.
Let's get some equality to the classes. :/
MindFeeder
08-11-04, 06:58
The Problems is this:
More PPUs -> Better - Most PPUs -> Win.
To solve this, just 3 things to do:
Double Holy Heal Time, and halfen its heal force.
--> An Good PPU can support more DDealer, its pointless to get an PPU for every single DDealer
Make Ressurect quick again ....or... make it fuck SD
---> A team with less PPUs can also rezz infight fight an faster rezz, theres no big advantage to bring 10 PPUs for rezzing..... or.......No one can rezz in the fight without shields, so then you cann bring on 20 PPUs for rezzing and its pointless cause they will die.
Make Freeze ROF 105 and low Manacost ...or....DELETE IT
---> Theres no need to bring on 10 PPUs so everyone of the enemy is para/db spammed all the time cause a team with less ppus can do this too......or........ no one can para, much better in my opinion, if i want pointandcklick fights i dont play NC
Whith these 3 simpe changes you will get a situation where is no need to come with 10 PPUs to support 10 DDealer, cause 3 Skilled PPUs will make it ass good.
You will then need teamplay and skilled DDealer/PPUs to win the fight, as it used to be long time ago :md:
PS: Personal Addition: The day KK will fuck up a patch so that APUs and MC Tanks wil have to aim i will have a big laugth to some clan who will realize that theyr noob DDealer event cant kill anythin with is paraspammed and 20 PPUs in theyr back ;)
Ok i've been playin a ppu since nc2 started and i've not noticed this "instant aiming of the monks."... someone mind explaining what i'm doing wrong? i have to find the persons box (ie, aiming) just like i do on my spy... it's not like a droner's instant aim if that's what you mean...
Ok i've been playin a ppu since nc2 started and i've not noticed this "instant aiming of the monks."... someone mind explaining what i'm doing wrong? i have to find the persons box (ie, aiming) just like i do on my spy... it's not like a droner's instant aim if that's what you mean...
On other classes exept melee you have to find the persons box AND close ur reticle.
APUs aint overpowered. Only bad players think they are. Ive said this about 100 times by now, sure they do good damage, but they drop in an instant if anyone starts shooting at them.
Reticule would kill APUs.. One thing I would support though is to make all APU spells require line of sight coz I dont think its right that I can stand behind a wall blasting away at someone just coz I managed to get the targetting box up while he cant do shit about it (except running around the wall if he survives that long).
QuantumDelta
08-11-04, 10:09
Orion']APUs aint overpowered. Only bad players think they are. Ive said this about 100 times by now, sure they do good damage, but they drop in an instant if anyone starts shooting at them.
Reticule would kill APUs.. One thing I would support though is to make all APU spells require line of sight coz I dont think its right that I can stand behind a wall blasting away at someone just coz I managed to get the targetting box up while he cant do shit about it (except running around the wall if he survives that long).
I think you got that backwards.
Orion']APUs aint overpowered. Only bad players think they are. Ive said this about 100 times by now, sure they do good damage, but they drop in an instant if anyone starts shooting at them.
Reticule would kill APUs.. One thing I would support though is to make all APU spells require line of sight coz I dont think its right that I can stand behind a wall blasting away at someone just coz I managed to get the targetting box up while he cant do shit about it (except running around the wall if he survives that long).They ARE overpowered. Fact. I cant understand why you cant see this.
Insane damage. Insane RoF. Piss easy aiming. No slowdown with weapon out. Best armor by far.
I still like the idea where random damage depends on the reticle, i.e high damage with a closed reticle, low damage with an open one. And tone down RoF, 105 is just too high.
So you would actually need skill to play an APU.
And nerf foreign cast heals. A lot.
reticle, reticle, reticle.... or the ideas with the reticle :P
or the mindfeeder's ideas =p
just make apu spells back to the end of nc1 power, instead of the nc2 overpoweredness.
damage cap of all spells need to be lowered by ALOT tbh
damage cap of all spells need to be lowered by ALOT tbh
maybe, or return apu damage to that of NC 1
apart from that..
FUCK OFF WITH NERF THE MONKS.. because its not 'monks' in general just when the two halfs meet.. :mad:
QuantumDelta
08-11-04, 18:09
Nah.
Drop APU Max damage to 50% of max random damage.
Boost APU Min damage to 50% of min random damage.
Wait... I think I just said Remove random damage.
Yea, that's the one.
They ARE overpowered. Fact. I cant understand why you cant see this.
Insane damage. Insane RoF. Piss easy aiming. No slowdown with weapon out. Best armor by far.
I still like the idea where random damage depends on the reticle, i.e high damage with a closed reticle, low damage with an open one. And tone down RoF, 105 is just too high.
So you would actually need skill to play an APU.
And nerf foreign cast heals. A lot.
Hmm, three things wrong there.
I can think off at least 2 other classes that have NO slowdown with weapon out. Melee tank, and pistol pe/spy. Should these be nerfed as well?
Insane RoF? What about a capped libby? That rips through monks like a hot knife though butter, should that be nerfed as well?
Best armour by far? Try playing a tank bud.
Imo, monks DON'T need a the famous sledgehammer approach that KK is famous for, all they need is tweaking to bring them back into line with the other classes.
I agree with reducing the damage, but only to a point.
I agree that there is NO way you should be able to shoot though walls.
But, I don't agree with completely NERFING a class 'cause someone doesn't agree with monks.
Chiefy
QuantumDelta
08-11-04, 18:24
Your choice of words make you sound like someone who has been around for a while.
What you actually say makes you sound like you actually started playing the game at the date you subscribed to the forum.
Yes, Lib is effective against monks.
It's my weapon of choice for killing PPUs if I am on my lonesome.
But hell no is it's damage ANYWHERE NEAR Holy Lightning.
105 RoF HL.
92x4 RoF Lib.
HL Damage is in the THOUSANDS (Two thousand something).
Lib Damage is in the low hundreds and only does anything significant against a moderately well setup target (CON/STR/Armor/Buffs wise) if more than two bullets hit in a burst (not all that likely tbh).
i agree with removing random damage.
Remove the holy line of spells.
or just nerf all ppu spells by 30%, oh what the hell - apus too :p (or more seriously, lower rof a bit)
QuantumDelta
08-11-04, 18:32
Any alterations to APU spells should most definately allow them to continue to runcast though..... Quite seriously, that was the _original_ point of an APU.
i agree with removing random damage.
I second that, but idea puting in recticle wont change anything. Any person with good aim will still have no problems hitting evry time so why bother?
Good luck MC5ing with nerfed ppus (or fighting any high lvl mobs for that matter)
If you have a whole character setup for staying alive I think you should let them
QuantumDelta
08-11-04, 18:35
Good luck MC5ing with nerfed ppus (or fighting any high lvl mobs for that matter)
If you have a whole character setup for staying alive I think you should let them
Again, as has been stated a THOUSAND TIMES.
MOB DAMAGE CAN BE ALTERED TO BE KEPT IN CHECK WITH PLAYER ABILITIES, KK HAVE IN THE PAST ALTERED MOB HP AND DAMAGE TO KEEP THEM IN CHECK WITH SAID PLAYERS.
Eesh.
HL Damage is in the THOUSANDS (Two thousand something).
Lib Damage is in the low hundreds and only does anything significant against a moderately well setup target (CON/STR/Armor/Buffs wise) if more than two bullets hit in a burst (not all that likely tbh).[/QUOTE]
Is HL damage in the thousands? Shows the last time I played an APU I guess. I agree that the damage NEEDS reducing, but not in the typical way KK do it. That is to absolutly nuke it to death.
Chiefy
(btw QD, been playing since Jan 03 on and off, just really only got around to re-activating my forum account again recently)
i agree with deleting monks, or giving them reticles...
make the pe usefull, he will be the new ppu... can die, can help... rezz is at 30 psi.... sex
give monks reticles would help alot :D
or just nerf the hl into the dmg of a healing l. ...
Good luck MC5ing with nerfed ppus (or fighting any high lvl mobs for that matter)
If you have a whole character setup for staying alive I think you should let them
oh dear...... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
another dumb biased as fuck poll.
didnt read
another dumb biased as fuck poll.
didnt read
yeah... monks = 90%
tanks spys pes = 10%
so whats the result of the poll ?
i agree with deleting monks, or giving them reticles...
make the pe usefull, he will be the new ppu... can die, can help... rezz is at 30 psi.... sex
give monks reticles would help alot :D
or just nerf the hl into the dmg of a healing l. ...
huh??? I think someone hates monkehs. Why delete a whole class? That makes no sense. Why change how monks aim, when it has been that way since the beginning??
Chiefy
Mechanicus
08-11-04, 20:58
a slight damage reduction is all it would take, for apu offence and slight reduction in effectiveness for PPU defence, imo
prob is it'll never be done right
huh??? I think someone hates monkehs. Why delete a whole class? That makes no sense. Why change how monks aim, when it has been that way since the beginning??
Chiefy
i hate monks right... ok, lets take away all reticles... would be f***ing fair...
omg, why can't understand some people, monks are over...
lets make them to aim in pvp, not pvm...
or something like that :
if the reticle is open 10% of its dmg
if its closed 100%
reticle needs ~1 sec to close
QuantumDelta
08-11-04, 21:05
HL Damage is in the THOUSANDS (Two thousand something).
Lib Damage is in the low hundreds and only does anything significant against a moderately well setup target (CON/STR/Armor/Buffs wise) if more than two bullets hit in a burst (not all that likely tbh).
Is HL damage in the thousands? Shows the last time I played an APU I guess. I agree that the damage NEEDS reducing, but not in the typical way KK do it. That is to absolutly nuke it to death.
Chiefy
(btw QD, been playing since Jan 03 on and off, just really only got around to re-activating my forum account again recently)
kinda like me then Oo
No one .................sensible, would argue sledge hammer nerfing ever ... :/
now seriously
why not reduce the ROF of the whole line of apu spells? It would allow them to runcast their spells, to use their movement, to use the advantage of the highest dmg output in game & lack of reticule... just make it so HL would hit 1 time per second, not two times...
and add to that
removing holy line of spells or maybe something a bit delicate, like nerfing the ppu powers a bit, 20-30% should be enough, but only under the restriction that all ppu spells will get nerfed (not just one spell, or holy line of spells) - in this way the proportions would be still intact.
the votes are clear tbh, leave em alone :0
(eXo) Opaleye
08-11-04, 22:40
HL damage is in the thousands ?
When was the last time you saw anyone (player over **/50) take a hit from a HL that was in the thousands? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Then factor in the leveling curve for the monks. (Many capped chars in other classes - vs, - v. few capped monks.
TBH I dont think there is much that needs to be done with any of the classes except to make the HC tanks run speed w/ PA better.
I just dont understand how 50 some odd people (according to the pole) can think things are fine right now..... :confused:
Mechanicus
08-11-04, 22:51
not the actual damage, the base numbers used for calculations
Mechanicus
08-11-04, 22:52
I just dont understand how 50 some odd people (according to the pole) can think things are fine right now..... :confused:
no some 50 odd people play monks as their main
no some 50 odd people play monks as their main
Its a shame really, its people like these that just kill the experience for me. All these people that merely care for themselves and dont seem to give two shits about balance. Its a "OMG I KAN KEEL MOR EPEEOPLES!!" mentality. Anyone noticed that nooone has made a single post explaining why they want to leave monks alone? I think mechanicus hit the nalil on the head.
Its a shame really, its people like these that just kill the experience for me. All these people that merely care for themselves and dont seem to give two shits about balance. Its a "OMG I KAN KEEL MOR EPEEOPLES!!" mentality. Anyone noticed that nooone has made a single post explaining why they want to leave monks alone? I think mechanicus hit the nalil on the head.
I played a monk back during N1 beta, and have just started playing again, trying to rebuild the monk I had. I, like, I'm sure, more than a few people in the game don't particularly WANT to PvP. I'm still a little miffed at being forced to do it for my epics. Right now, as a 40/35 monk, I'm having some serious problems with my char. I'm ok with energy based attacks, but piercing attacks rip through me like butter, and the when I've had to defend myself from other players, I can't do squat damage to them... and yes, it's against Monks I have to try and defend myself against more than often. Yes, I'm sure it's largely because I've constructed my character badly and I'm a poor player, but damnit, I'll blame other people as loudly and as often as I can!
I'm personally against the nerfing of any character, regardless of class, but I do agree that something needs to be done to tone down the absolute reaming Monks can hand out against other players - and also have epic options for those of us who don't want to kill other players. (... waiting now to be shouted down as a carebear).
So what's the point of me saying this? I'm just trying to put in a little perspective as an up-and-coming Monk, not one of the HL-wielding psychopaths you guys are complaining about. Don't try and get the entire class made unplayable just because of a capped characters you don't personally like. Let's look, instead of breaking down a character, at what it is about your own characters that you want to have boosted? Should the aim time for your reticles be reduced? Should PA come with a coffee cup? Should you have an option of metallic paint and air-con on your new Rhino? C'mon folks, let's be constructive instead of trying to rip shreds out of something you just... don't like.
C'mon folks, let's be constructive instead of trying to rip shreds out of something you just... don't like.
I have a monk alt whom would be greatly affected by these changes. Keep in mind there is a medium between for and against. I want whats best for my monk, however, i realise sacrifices must be made. The people whom i was referring to are the ones that simply play monks ONLY to have an upper hand in battle and do not want anything to affect their oh so mighty "power".
I am really curious why giving a reticle to the monks is considered "nerfing the whole class". According to this logic all other classes have been nerfed for ages. There is nothing in my opinion that justifies the monk's insta aim and shoot around the corner feature. With correct setup the APUs have pretty nice resist if they pop up a cpl drugs they can withstand lots of damage. Their ROF is magical. They run like a wind. They do lots of damage. For me its balanced that the class with presumably the least defence does the most of the damage, but why insta aim? why shoot around the corner? It would be nice if KK just tried to introduce the reticle to all monks, maybe its the only thing that needed to balance even PPUs to some extent and then see if any further tweaks are needed.
Mechanicus
09-11-04, 01:56
i liked the idea thrown around a looooooooooooong time ago that the reticle isnt used for aiming, as long as you have the curser over them you will hit.
but do away with random damage and the tigher you can get the reticle to close the higher damage you will do, keeps the same old feel of the monk class but adds more skill requirement to play
i liked the idea thrown around a looooooooooooong time ago that the reticle isnt used for aiming, as long as you have the curser over them you will hit.
but do away with random damage and the tigher you can get the reticle to close the higher damage you will do, keeps the same old feel of the monk class but adds more skill requirement to play
I could deal with that as a monk, but one fundamental aspect of the monk would have to change - instead of "summoning" energy before casting, to be fair we should cast as soon as we click, then maybe 'recover' energy (?).
Sure, we have great ROF, but unlike guns, we don't fire as soon as we hit left-click. For a lot of spells, the lead time to actually firing is small, but that's because it has been reduced by the amount of points we put into Psi Use, just as the time for the reticle to lock is reduced by weapon lore (I think that's the right skill).
Every class has checks and balances, we just need a few more balances at the moment instead of everyone screaming to have the *PUs checked.
HL Damage is in the THOUSANDS (Two thousand something).
Lib Damage is in the low hundreds and only does anything significant against a moderately well setup target (CON/STR/Armor/Buffs wise) if more than two bullets hit in a burst (not all that likely tbh).
If this is actually true, then simply, apu power is 5 fold dmg by almost EVERY other weapon. The difference is extremely high, and all I can think of is, that random factor. Actually what's the reason for random APU dmg? Why not ballancing the weapon taking in concideration low piercing/force apu resists ? it's that simple. Back in nc1 it was ok
So useless.
reticle
You can fire weapons all the time, maybe they may even hit other runners by "accident", even though you haven't even aimed at them. Secondly they fire in the very instant you pull the trigger. Depending on the weapon and clip size you can do that a few times, then you have to reload the weapon (or it does that by itself). Reloading is a mere keypress.
PSI stuff works differently, as has been said already. You start "casting" the "spell" and then it fires. The longer that time (means the lower the RoF), the greater the chances of fizzling when you run around too much ("runcasting" gets more difficult). Except for AoE spells you need to have an aim to get a spell casted, else it fizzles (offensive spells, defensive spells are "applied" to the caster then). Reloading works with a keypress as long as you have boosters in your quickbelt, loading boosters into your quickbelt requires you to open your RPOS and move them manually (very slow). APUs normally have way more slots free for boosters than PPUs do. The longer the fights the more likely this reloading has to be done at least once.
When monks get reticle I want to have "spells" work like the other weapons. Don't ask me how the beam-type spells will be handled, I never said monks should get reticle :p Btw. I like to have different play styles, making them all the same is a nice way to kill a nice feature of Neocron.
only heals can be cast on others, rest is selfbuff only
Now lets see who can selfbuff. Spies can cast deflector, with drugs even shelter. Tanks are at the lower end, only being able to cast a deflector. PEs have nice buffs already, including a decent deflector and shelter. Pure APUs are even worse off than tanks, PPUs are the buff machines and you got different kinds of hybrids (e.g. APU based hybrids with PE buffs). Now imagine these people with a PPU throwing continuously a heal at them. What will happen? How will OP fights look like? APUs will die, tanks are most likely to die as well, you will have left hybrids, PEs and maybe some spies.
longer time for heal/buffs, lower power on them though
People will die faster. PPUs are less stressed and thus have more spare time to wreck havoc otherwise. Means you need less PPUs to make fights a big mess, not to talk about the PPUs you need now to resurrect all the dead people (they die faster).
remove parashock
Not sure if that only aims at the parashock line of psi modules or at the whole parashock stuff ingame. Anyway, for PPUs it's currently the only way to get them "responsible" for their actions. Parashock deals damage, thus you have to pay SL/faction symps according to the respective rules. Other PPU modules don't have this feature. You could change the damage boost module accordingly (damage boost sanctum is an interesting case then, because it seems it needs to deal damage to get taken into account :p). I dunno how important this "feature" of the parashock spells is, though.
etc.pp. ...
The list of ideas is long, very long. Changing PPU spells per se would include a change for PEs as well (and they have access to a few "blessed" type spells already). Fact is, regardless how you want to change the monks, they will always be what they are (or absolutely useless).
PPUs will always be a "pain in the ass", because they change the combat power of other characters. As long as they are able to do this, there will always be something to moan about. They need to be hard to kill (this game is PvP afterall, you cannot split them into healers and buffers and whatnot).
APUs are easily to kill and thus have to deal lotsa damage as compensation. The thing you can argue about here is the way the damage is dealt and the amount of it. Changing RoF will affect the "hitrate" on enemies, sure, but it changes the way the APUs have to deal with the psi modules (e.g. HL).
Maybe I should add a short version of what I posted a while back in the german forum about this whole thing. You can see the whole combat in a very abstract way and apply to every character a set of two numbers: the attack and the defense power. Multiply both to get the overall "ranking". As long as this ranking stays the same (and given same hit frequency as well as the fact they virtually hit both at the same time), the characters are balanced. Lets put that into numbers: player A with AP 5 and DP 5 (rank 25) and player B with AP 2.5 and DP 10. Both are at half "health" after the first hit-round and dead after the second. Now lets add a "PPU". The way the PPUs seem to work in Neocron they add to the power-values, lets say 0.5 to AP and 2 to DP. In this scenario player A gets a higher ranking (38.5) than player B (36), thus player A wins the fights. The only way to fix that problem is to let "PPUs" multiply the ranking with a certain value (= changing AP and DP of the players accordingly to match this new ranking). In theory this looks like a nice solution, in reality it's more or less impossible to accomplish (way too many stuff you can do which affects these values in one way or another). As long as a character(-class) can change others AP and DP you will always get "inconsistencies" in your balance.
So the only viable way to get rid of all the problems is deleting this whole monk-class. Furthermore, all the comments about getting "owned" or "owning" someone with or without PPU are void as long as you don't add the necessary context information to it (best would be full information about their setup, current status when fight started (health, buffs, ...) and so on). This data never really shows up anywhere, still these kills are put up as a fact (APU != APU, same for everything else). Besides you can have a fully capped PPU doing worse than a not even PSI capped PPU just because the player behind it knows what to do as a PPU.
That's only some thoughts about this, with a few examples and "could be"s. Looking at my PPU it seems nothing has really changed compared to NC1. APUs may have a higher damage output, but fixing this with reticles and whatnot is kinda ... odd :p
Leave us alone - its bad enough we cant be a hybrid anymore
greendonkeyuk
09-11-04, 18:35
They ARE overpowered. Fact. I cant understand why you cant see this.
Insane damage. Insane RoF. Piss easy aiming. No slowdown with weapon out. Best armor by far.
I still like the idea where random damage depends on the reticle, i.e high damage with a closed reticle, low damage with an open one. And tone down RoF, 105 is just too high.
So you would actually need skill to play an APU.
And nerf foreign cast heals. A lot.
sums up the changes id like to see made for sure.
Leave us alone - its bad enough we cant be a hybrid anymore
y]Yes you can... And you can be very over powerd in 1v1 as a apu hybrid.
remove spy's, pe's and tank's leave monks alone :lol:
QuantumDelta
09-11-04, 21:07
Leave us alone - its bad enough we cant be a hybrid anymore
Ignorant >.>
You can be hybrids.
You can be MORE EFFECTIVE than PEs and a lot of spies on the battle field for crap sake >.>
Darkana;
Nice post.
The reason why I said manipulate rather than boost or nerf is because of that very comment.
"Monks will always be what they are now or useless."
Hense manip rather than one dimensional thinking is required.
y]Yes you can... And you can be very over powerd in 1v1 as a apu hybrid.
Not my fault. :P
So useless.
reticle
You can fire weapons all the time, maybe they may even hit other runners by "accident", even though you haven't even aimed at them. Secondly they fire in the very instant you pull the trigger. Depending on the weapon and clip size you can do that a few times, then you have to reload the weapon (or it does that by itself). Reloading is a mere keypress.
PSI stuff works differently, as has been said already. You start "casting" the "spell" and then it fires. The longer that time (means the lower the RoF), the greater the chances of fizzling when you run around too much ("runcasting" gets more difficult). Except for AoE spells you need to have an aim to get a spell casted, else it fizzles (offensive spells, defensive spells are "applied" to the caster then). Reloading works with a keypress as long as you have boosters in your quickbelt, loading boosters into your quickbelt requires you to open your RPOS and move them manually (very slow). APUs normally have way more slots free for boosters than PPUs do. The longer the fights the more likely this reloading has to be done at least once.
When monks get reticle I want to have "spells" work like the other weapons. Don't ask me how the beam-type spells will be handled, I never said monks should get reticle :p Btw. I like to have different play styles, making them all the same is a nice way to kill a nice feature of Neocron.
I don't want psi spells working like guns... variety is very nice. Oh, and to add to your list, if you fizzle a spell (miss/tried to runcast a spell you can't) it takes like twice as long to cast it again than if it hit.
only heals can be cast on others, rest is selfbuff only
Now lets see who can selfbuff. Spies can cast deflector, with drugs even shelter. Tanks are at the lower end, only being able to cast a deflector. PEs have nice buffs already, including a decent deflector and shelter. Pure APUs are even worse off than tanks, PPUs are the buff machines and you got different kinds of hybrids (e.g. APU based hybrids with PE buffs). Now imagine these people with a PPU throwing continuously a heal at them. What will happen? How will OP fights look like? APUs will die, tanks are most likely to die as well, you will have left hybrids, PEs and maybe some spies.
Well, actually, that's wrong. PEs, while they have shelter/deflector, have comparable ability to take damage as a tank (in terms of hp/resist ratio). Basically, well setup PEs and Tanks take about the same amount of hits to kill. Spies drugging for shelter take a little less than PEs, depending on ammo mod used against them and more drugs. APUs are actually balanced too, for their damage output at least, but you're right, in an op-war setting they'll take fire from everyone and drop like nothing. Hybrids range from PE/tank level defense to nearly PPU depending on their APU/PPU ratio.
remove parashock
Not sure if that only aims at the parashock line of psi modules or at the whole parashock stuff ingame. Anyway, for PPUs it's currently the only way to get them "responsible" for their actions. Parashock deals damage, thus you have to pay SL/faction symps according to the respective rules. Other PPU modules don't have this feature. You could change the damage boost module accordingly (damage boost sanctum is an interesting case then, because it seems it needs to deal damage to get taken into account :p). I dunno how important this "feature" of the parashock spells is, though.
Making db do a token 1 damage would be interesting, so PPUs lose SL just like everyone else. Parashock needs to stay in... it's one of the few ways you can kill a PPU. Everyone knows PPUs have the best defense in the game, and that you probably wont be able to outdamage their heal when they're standing still and you're getting constant headshots. Everyone also knows that APUs in a duel can beat a tank if the APU has good aim and knows how to move fast and dodge. Defense plays less of a role if your opponents are missing. A PPU that isn't parashocked has the speed of a PE or so and the best defense in the game bar none. It would be even harder to kill PPUs without para than it is now... keep para in.
Increase the dmg they take from pierce/frc
It was what i always percieved as the main weakness since no armour really helps against pierce but spec the strength and deflect ontop of that and voilla its a lot less scary.
Basically do some nifty thing with there str to lower the frc they can spec or add like a bonus on pierce dmg to monk or something lol.
Since most classes have access to a piercing weapon even monks have a force spell it gives peeps a wep to try and fight back with, take away random dmg and that would probably fix the fire apoc aswell which gives poison/Energy/fire back to the monks (adjust toxic beam to be a bit more effective since poison on melee is good dont see why the spells cant be)
It's really hard to suggest things that don't take the jobs purposes away, i used to think hybrids were bad but least they had 2 sets of problems, ppu and apu to deal with, the fact the classes are seperate means its one job to be focussed on which makes it worse.
At the end of the day whatever happens to a apu DEFENSE they will still be the highest dmg dealer, so they might have to be a bit more carefull with there bodies but i thought thats why they raised gen tanks to be at the front line takin brunts of dmg.
Weaken their defense more raise the range to compensate...
The ppu i dunno, maybe shelters and deflects should be more penile to cast on everyone and keep recasting, either imo whatever balance is suggested as long as a ppu is in the mix it just changes it all the time and negs most parts of it.
How about a penalty on SELF CAST buffs lol so his team might be more interested in who's shootin him or makin him not use shelter and rely on psi shields or something i dunno lol but it seems long as ppus stand someone normall stands alongside....
Not my fault. :P
Yes it is :rolleyes:
y]Yes you can... And you can be very over powerd in 1v1 as a apu hybrid.
No I mean a real hybrid - A monk that can cast every Psi power in the game
When I signed up for this Monk lark no one (inc the manual) said anything about having to go APU or PPU.........
QuantumDelta
09-11-04, 22:23
No I mean a real hybrid - A monk that can cast every Psi power in the game
When I signed up for this Monk lark no one (inc the manual) said anything about having to go APU or PPU.........
Oh you mean the sickeningly overpowered and unkillable ones if played properly?
What was your argument again?
Oh you mean the sickeningly overpowered and unkillable ones if played properly?
What was your argument again?
Also arguably the most fun monks ever to play. Not because they were so overpowered, but because they had so many choices and such a huge array of abilities open to them. I loved my 50/50 hybrid, I could be a ppu, an apu, or a hybrid depending on the situation.
___T-X____
10-11-04, 00:40
Also arguably the most fun monks ever to play. Not because they were so overpowered, but because they had so many choices and such a huge array of abilities open to them. I loved my 50/50 hybrid, I could be a ppu, an apu, or a hybrid depending on the situation.
With the removal of the 'Backpack' feature, the resource should be used to ensure they get a recticle.
Giving monks a reticle won't solve anything... it'd be a cool feature to have it do like 10% damage if fully open or 100% damage if fully closed, but if people want to gives monk a reticle because their aiming is too easy, I'm gonna laugh when the same monks with a reticle still kill them. Reticle isn't a problem, and giving monks one won't change anything except to lose variety in the game.
Oh you mean the sickeningly overpowered and unkillable ones if played properly?
What was your argument again?]
My point is that they nerfed a class that had 3 'weapon options' (full hybrid, PPU and APU) into one with _less_ choice - now balance and cookie cutter aside look at how many 'weapon options' the other classes get (i.e. low/high pistol/rifle/melee/heavy) and you'll see how all other classes get more options (even before the big nerf) - monks give up alot of options just to be monks!
Hybrids should have been balanced with the other classes while APUs and PPUs were notably harder (in the appropriate dept.) to compensate for their chosen inherent weakness - now because of nerfs monks are forced to pick a dominant trait (hence the earlier 'hybrid APU' comment - if its got APU in the title it obviously isnt a hybrid)
Its probably worth pointing out that I dont PvP - so what most of you only see are the problems you have with monks in PvP and dont consider the consequences of these nerfs on the PvE monk.
]
Hybrids should have been balanced with the other classes while APUs and PPUs were notably harder (in the appropriate dept.) to compensate for their chosen inherent weakness - now because of nerfs monks are forced to pick a dominant trait (hence the earlier 'hybrid APU' comment - if its got APU in the title it obviously isnt a hybrid)
It obviously isn't a hybrid? What? So if I were to call the hybrids of old APU/PPU hybrids, would they also not be hybrids?
hybrid n. - Something of mixed origin or composition.
"Leave My Precious Monk Alone"
Should have been:
"I play an Overpowered monk, I'd rather keep it than have a balanced game"
I play Joint Operations, there was recently a patch that nerfed Snipers, a dominant class in the game (as anyone that's played it would know) they now have a fixed scope zoom, making them pretty much useless in close quarters.
Oh did they CRY and threaten to QUIT because it of, even though it was an obvious step towards balance in the game.
Moral is, people get used to playing an overpowered class for so long, they don't wanna give it up, even more so in a game like this where work has been put into an individual character, not to mention you're paying a monthly fee to play said character. So the issue is much worse.
I think KK should make note of that when/if they view these polls.
QuantumDelta
10-11-04, 21:13
]
Hybrids should have been balanced with the other classes while APUs and PPUs were notably harder (in the appropriate dept.) to compensate for their chosen inherent weakness - now because of nerfs monks are forced to pick a dominant trait (hence the earlier 'hybrid APU' comment - if its got APU in the title it obviously isnt a hybrid)
They were.
Its probably worth pointing out that I dont PvP - so what most of you only see are the problems you have with monks in PvP and dont consider the consequences of these nerfs on the PvE monk.
Oh.
As an asside, I would have done things differently.
However since KK probably didn't have time to do more ...indepth, changes than simple nerf/boost, the class needed to be downscaled.
There is nothing wrong with the current hybrid UNTIL you try to bring it to an op war.
It is currently more powerful than any other soloist class.
However, it suffers the exact same problem, as the PE.
hudsonbeck
10-11-04, 21:15
I think KK should make note of that when/if they view these polls.
I am sure they appreciate your recommendation O_o
These threads make me sick!
When will you people give the fuck up?
Do you honestly think that a hybrid is over powered?
Do you honestly think that a APU is over powered?
Do you honestly think that a PPU is over powered?
I have three accounts now. Every class type and I can guarantee you that i can beat any class with any class, and I am not that good at PvP as I don’t do it much anymore.
Every class has its benefits and its weaknesses, learn to play them and stfu for Christ’s sake!
It is amazing how so few people can bitch so much so loud that it makes me nauseous. It really pushes people away from this community.
Ugh!
Hudson
ONOZ!!! my APU has just been killed by a pistol spy!!!
NERF SPIES!!!
(thats what this thread about IMHO. Looking at the results of the (Biased, look at the "leave my monk alone option") the monks should NOT be berfed :D)
hudsonbeck
10-11-04, 21:36
ONOZ!!! my APU has just been killed by a pistol spy!!!
NERF SPIES!!!
(thats what this thread about IMHO. Looking at the results of the (Biased, look at the "leave my monk alone option") the monks should NOT be berfed :D)
Exactly.
QuantumDelta
10-11-04, 21:38
I hate this community.
Please add up the 'anti' monk, and the 'pro' monk votes.
You'll find there ISNT actually that much of a difference.
-- You, Hudson, Please, don't start.
hudsonbeck
10-11-04, 21:54
I hate this community.
I agree with you there. Well just the majority of the forum community.
Please add up the 'anti' monk, and the 'pro' monk votes.
True.
atm its like 66/81
You'll find there ISNT actually that much of a difference.\
So then when half the community thinks one way and the other half thinks another, it leaves KK in a difficult lose/lose situation.
-- You, Hudson, Please, don't start.
--you, QD, are one of the very few people i respect and one of the few people who actually knows a great deal about the mechanics of the game so my intention was not to 'start' with you. I am just fed up with all the bitching about monks and maybe i should get away from teh forum again for a little while. This is the first time in a long time i have actually had fun in NC again, but for some reason i always come back to the forum and get pissed off.
Hudson
QuantumDelta
10-11-04, 22:08
I didn't want you to start because I didn't want to lose what I have in oppinion of you because you do tend to talk in an unbiased light, which helps.
The problem is with monks, they're very very annoying to play atm.
Fiddley.
Feel Nerfed.
Not very rewarding.
Stressful.
Like PEs too.
This is because they were never balanced with any foresight.
Yes, they're more balanced now than they were, no, they're not totally balanced and in most scenarios it will be a monk at the top of the table;
Hybrid;
Best solo.
PPU;
Best defence
Best team presence.
APU;
Best offence (Bar Melee? not sure think HL is still stronger).
Best benefit from a PPU.
Is what the real problem with monks is.
That APU/PPU Combo, no one minds Hybrids now because they're not _completely_ unkillable with uber offence.
The Def+Atk of PPU/APU will forever be a problem until, quite specifically, something is done about PPU buffs.
I would prefer to come to a well thought out and less stressful/nerfed feeling solution, but this community is far too stubborn and paranoid about everything that it refuses to look beyond it's own nose in terms of solutions.
If nothing is done, eventually people are either gonna leave, of KK will nerf something out of existance.
And/Or Both.
NC2 Postponed the inebitable.
hudsonbeck
10-11-04, 22:23
^^ I agree with what you said above QD.
I would complete agree with a re-work of the monk class. I hope that what Lupus talked about (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=118057&page=1) with the skills re-work is foreshadowing a new progressive approach by KK to mostly balance characters (as much as possible) with more foresight and less 'quick fixes'
but how many times have i had hope.... probably like 1000 times b4 (I am so gullible). But KK has actually impressed me this time and I think Holgar(sp?) is actually doing a great job, I hope he keeps it up.
/rambling
Anyway... I do apologize and from time to time, i lose it and post b4 thinking. The propensity most of this community has toward un-needed (imo:)) bitching astonishes me on an almost daily basis.
Apologies @QD
and i need to go smoke and have a beer.
Hudson
Dribble Joy
10-11-04, 22:41
I would prefer to come to a well thought out and less stressful/nerfed feeling solution,
Question is, can we find a solution that both balances and removes the complete necessity of ppus (or any class) from PvP?
(though each class should have a use and/or something to benefit a team, it should not be a requirment.)
I am sure they appreciate your recommendation O_o
When will you people give the fuck up?
Do you honestly think that a hybrid is over powered?
Do you honestly think that a APU is over powered?
Do you honestly think that a PPU is over powered?
1. yes
2. no
3. yes
I play a hybrid. It might just be skill, but the strenghts of the class make it unbalanced. Or maybe it's just that other classes suck right now. An apu hybrid is better in EVERY WAY than a PE... except driving. Tanks are balanced except that they do not benefit from drugs like a PE or a Spy does. A drugged PE/Spy is about equal to an APU hybrid 1v1, but not in an op war in which they're worse. Monks also don't benefit from drugs, but they make up for it in pure power.
Make shields self-cast?
Monks also don't benefit from drugs, but they make up for it in pure power.I have a monk setup that uses 2 drugs, but I need a feskin DS for it to work. If you saw it you would see why monks can benefit from drugs. :)
It's not anywhere near as much as a spy or pe can use drugs. And why don't you show me the setup?
It's not anywhere near as much as a spy or pe can use drugs. And why don't you show me the setup?Bleh. May as well. Drugged on whiteflash and x-strong. My hyb has lower apu and psu and way less ppw atm and he can runcast HL, so don't worry about that.
nice setup.. could use minor tweaking, but I get why you use xstrong to use moveon and filter 2 and anti-gamma bones. But spies and pes still get much larger gains than monks do.
Yeah that's true, monks aren't helped by drugging for armor or psi.
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