View Full Version : LoM Poll - Please think then vote.
hudsonbeck
03-11-04, 16:36
This is a request to change the LoM pills for one patch period. The only thig i would like to see removed is the synap. Keep the xp loss because you should lose xp when you lom, but just for one week allow us the ability to take them without synap.
Now that we have been in NC2 for a while and people have some cash we can afford certain things like LoM pills.
I know that I LoMed for two weeks before NC2 launch to have it all 'undone' by the 3 week rollback to Spetember 5th. I have since LoMed a little in NC2 but have twice had it 'undone' by the many Terra rollbacks. I can not stomache the hours upon hours of waiting while LoMing again. Before NC2 launch I took sever hundred LoM's across many characters and can not spend the hours upon hours doing that again...
I have read threads upon threads of people in the same situation. They LoMed hundreds of pills only to have it undone by a roillback
So my plea is to Please, for ONE patch period (one week) allow us to take LoM's without synap BUT KEEP THE XP LOSS.
Please, Please think before you vote and lets let ReaKKtor know know how we feel. And If this thread is a success (either way) can someone from Reakktor let us know what the Official opinion is in this matter, please just remember what some of us have been through ;)
My Plea to you,
Hudson
-=BlackBeard=-
03-11-04, 16:46
tbh no one wants to lose xp so the xp loss is bad enough. i think the change shud be perminant
Michael Graves
Maybe have less synap, 5% or something.
I would say should give about 2x SI as a normal GR trip and keep the XP loss and this should be a permanent change. There should at least be some time sink to change your chars to something totally different.
5-10 Synap and the same xp loss would be enough.
No. One "week of exploiting" is not what i like.
Just XP loss simply would not be enough to stop ppl from it.
Bad luck with the LoMs, get over it.
And those who moaned about loming and then getting rerolled are how many? 1 out of 1000 ppl playing?
Bad idea.
angelsenior
03-11-04, 17:06
tbh SI is a pure timesink, as is the XP loss because it all translates to how much time is needed to use it/gain xp again.
I need no timesink, I want to play/have fun ffs
Skill definition and usage being a bit *vague*, certainly for new players, it is a regular occurance to find oneself in a position where skill setup is no longer good for your char/playstyle.
For me drop the SI altogether.
There is no good reason to change the LoMing.
The problem ain't the LoMs it's the rollbacks.
Example of a different equally annoying situation:
If I would lose my exp points due a rollback should I be able to re-level my char easier?
NO
hudsonbeck
03-11-04, 17:18
No. One "week of exploiting" is not what i like.
Just XP loss simply would not be enough to stop ppl from it.
Bad luck with the LoMs, get over it.
And those who moaned about loming and then getting rerolled are how many? 1 out of 1000 ppl playing?
Bad idea.
Exploiting in what way? That is a very strong word to use and I suggest you think about the words you use, before you use them.
The xp loss is huge and I have to disagree with you there...
I see you are from Ur_anus so its easy for you to say 'get over it' as you didn’t lose three weeks to a rollback. Try to walk in our shoes then see how you feel.
Where do you get your numbers '1-1000' I would like to know. I feel that it is much, much higher than that but as I Don’t Know exact numbers I use general terms, Please PM me with your sources for your data.
I really don’t see how this affects you so greatly that you are so adamantly against such a benign idea that would make so many feel so much better that lost so much.
geesh,
Hudson
Edit - added
There is no good reason to change the LoMing.
The problem ain't the LoMs it's the rollbacks.
Example of a different equally annoying situation:
If I would lose my exp points due a rollback should I be able to re-level my char easier?
NO
Not a good comparison...
There is a mechanism in the game to correct this timesinc currently that can simply be altered slightly to correct what was done.
There is no mechinism in game to correct wht was done to you with the xp loss.
just my opinion but, i dont mind playing and lvling to get the xp i lost back because its fun and interactive. LoMing is nothin but sitting in an apt and being bored = no fun x2.
H
Hudson - you can't put forth a suggestion and then shoot down every theory that disagrees with yours. It's not how things work.
I would be all for a week of amnesty in certain cases - say for example if this theme period for drones came up negative - IE they didn't manage to solve that many problems - this would allow droners to reroll - and for anyone else it's convenient - for example saturners who lost valuable time or anyone who lommed before a rollback and hasn't had the chance to do so.
I do also agree that SI is much needed - purely for timesink - I am dead against people just popping pills once they cap a character and turning them into whatever the hell they want - only to turn it back the next day for a loss of XP.
It is very annoying that SI is so high - Maybe a slight nerf in my opinion - but there's plenty of skillmanagers out there to help you plan a character - you shouldn't need to lom If you plan properly.
I can appreciate also that for some people Lomming is a necesary evil in adjusting thier characters to the changes made in NC2 which is why I suggested a slight nerf.
I think that's all the bases covered (trying not to be biased here)
By the way - I've only completely lommed once - to change from heavy tech to melee combat - and once I had done it - I hated it. Because I was familiar with my HC tank - not some sword toting turd poker, not because of the timesink.
sanityislost
03-11-04, 17:34
Have 2 types of loms
the type we have now and another set with no si but cost about 7k each
SiL ..:..
Why would you have to stay in you're apt and do nothing while LoMing?
If thats not an option try to re-arrange you're RL apt so that you can watch a movie at the same time, play Minesweeper or numerous little "quality times" (with someone or by yourself).
I'm just saying all (who were online) loses something due a rollback.
If only someones work (for the rollbacked hours/days) can be "rescued", it ain't fair to the others.
-As you propably noticed I'm not english-
hudsonbeck
03-11-04, 17:45
Hudson - you can't put forth a suggestion and then shoot down every theory that disagrees with yours. It's not how things work.
I am not trying to shoot down every theory, just the ones I believe (imo) to be false. When someone uses the word 'exploit' with LoM's I give the 'theory' little credit and was simply stating my response to a 'theory.'
If people come up with sound reasons why LoM's should not be changed for a short period, then I will concede, until then I will try to 'debate' any 'theories' that oppose the change.
Hudson
Edit - added
I'm just saying all (who were online) loses something due a rollback.
If only someones work (for the rollbacked hours/days) can be "rescued", it ain't fair to the others.
I understand that it may not be fair to all because so much was lost. I just hope we can get back as much as possible with the least cost to the players :)
Obsidian X
03-11-04, 17:49
Lomming is boring and tedious. Maybe increase the XP loss to discourage Lom addicts but ditch the SI.
hudsonbeck
03-11-04, 17:49
Have 2 types of loms
the type we have now and another set with no si but cost about 7k each
SiL ..:..
Fine by me. I would spend every NC credit i have just to not have to sit through the pain again.
Lomming is boring and tedious. Maybe increase the XP loss to discourage Lom addicts but ditch the SI.
Fine by me too... combine your idea and SiL's and i would still be happy.
H
Have 2 types of loms
the type we have now and another set with no si but cost about 7k each
SiL ..:..
great idea, but i think they should cost more...it's good money sink too, and if ppl dont want to wait then they would have to pay arm and leg. I think they should cost 15k atleast tho, cuz u know high lvl experienced player can get money pretty easy.
I would like it to stack SI more than removing it....
SiL - I don't like your Idea - I can earn shedloads in a day - and spend it all on loms - pop away and re distribute - do it all again - and be back where I started by noon.
We have space for more characters for a reason - get em rolled - get em levelling.
That NC has LoM's at all should be greatly appreciated, almost no other mmorpg's have anything like that. The *only* reason we even have LoM's is because KK often makes drastic changes to how skills work and equipment requirements. They were originaly supposed to be removed after a patch or two. If KK ever finishes tweaking the classes then there shouldn't be any reason for LoM's to exist.
Until then LoM's should definitly keep their current SI/XP Loss. It's bad enough that we can hop around factions, switching professions at least needs to be tough.
I think the short time (one week) would be acceptable... the Saturn players lost a lot at the end of NC1 when everyone was preparing for NC2 and it seems to me to be the least one could do to help out all that time lost.
SiL - I don't like your Idea - I can earn shedloads in a day - and spend it all on loms - pop away and re distribute - do it all again - and be back where I started by noon.
We have space for more characters for a reason - get em rolled - get em levelling.
I have no space and all chars r caped, so u sugest ppl delite caped chars just to change coulpe of skill points? gg lol. i do agree that money is very easy to get tho maby it should cost alot more and have 15% si or somthing..
I have no space and all chars r caped, so u sugest ppl delite caped chars just to change coulpe of skill points? gg lol. i do agree that money is very easy to get tho maby it should cost alot more and have 15% si or somthing..
I would take that seriously if you hadn't have put GG lol... sarcasm doesn't really cut the mustard. No - YOU have all capped chars - so I would'nt suggest other people delete to make room.
and if you've played enough to cap 4 chars - you'll have played enough to
A) what classes you like to play
B) what classes you as an individual are liable to need
C) what classes your clan has
D) How to set up a fucking character in the first place
So no. I do not suggest you delete - I suggest you look at your characters. Because I sincerely doubt that if you've done them properly - they'll need to lom - especially if their capped - you've had AGES to sort them.
I think the SI sucks ...... and the xp losses a high level are too much ,
then again i suppose having played back when LOMS had no side effects i much prefered that .......less hastle = more fun .
and the amount of xp ive lost loming in the past i could have capped WOC 2 times over .
But all in all LOMS work well , but SI = most boring part of the game
I would take that seriously if you hadn't have put GG lol... sarcasm doesn't really cut the mustard. No - YOU have all capped chars - so I would'nt suggest other people delete to make room.
:wtf: by saying I got caped char I meant all ppl who got caped chars will have to delete to change skills, and that's why it's ridicules idea.
and if you've played enough to cap 4 chars - you'll have played enough to
A) what classes you like to play
B) what classes you as an individual are liable to need
C) what classes your clan has
D) How to set up a fucking character in the first place
So no. I do not suggest you delete - I suggest you look at your characters. Because I sincerely doubt that if you've done them properly - they'll need to lom - especially if their capped - you've had AGES to sort them.
And all me chars setup, but I like to lom cuz I like to try different setups and that's what makes the game fun for me there is always something different to try out, I lomed me monk 7 times from hybrid to apu and back, that's what kept me playing..thats why I though er idea is horrible
I would take that seriously if you hadn't have put GG lol... sarcasm doesn't really cut the mustard.
It doesn't? Tho you use it excessively....gg lol :rolleyes:
:wtf: by saying I got caped char I meant all ppl who got caped chars will have to delete to change skills, and that's why it's ridicules idea.
No... You can lom - JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES. There's a 1/100 ratio of people against lomming in my opinion. Everyone else perseveres - why can't you? Are you special?
And all me chars setup, but I like to lom cuz I like to try different setups and that's what makes the game fun for me there is always something different to try out, I lomed me monk 7 times from hybrid to apu and back, that's what kept me playing..thats why I though er idea is horrible
But you did it seven times - if you did it seven times - you put up with it. If it was that bad - why did you repeated - EXCEPT from it kept you interested - unless you like getting pissed off.
It doesn't? Tho you use it excessively....gg lol :rolleyes:
No It doesn't - and no, I don't - I put forth to you this link (http://www.dictionary.com). Furthermore - I vote that GG and Lol be erased from existance on account of they are the most irritating phrases/shorthands I have ever come across.
i voted yes
even though like the rest of my clan i decided kk have left it too late and delivered too little and cancelled. and most of us had 2 accounts each :(
if they had listened to this sort of poll and ACTED on it then maybe we would have stayed. sadly whatever the results of this poll nothing will be done by kk.
No It doesn't - and no, I don't - I put forth to you this link (http://www.dictionary.com).
"We have space for more characters for a reason" <---- Sarcastic coment go and look at that link er self.
Furthermore - I vote that GG and Lol be erased from existance on account of they are the most irritating phrases/shorthands I have ever come across.
No argument here, and thats the exact reason I use it against sertain aponents (to enoy/irritate them)
This argument is getting out of hands and certainly out of topic so if you wish to educate me further on meaning of sarcasm I sagest u do it in pm for the sake of both us being edited.
"We have space for more characters for a reason" <---- Sarcastic coment go and look at that link er self.
No. That's a point. We have space for a reason. See? I pointed something out. Now if you couldn't figure out the reason - it's to make new characters.
BUT that point is redundant now as you took that and said - all of your spaces are full. Great move there bucko. <--- SARCASM.
No argument here, and thats the exact reason I use it against sertain aponents (to enoy/irritate them)
This argument is getting out of hands and certainly out of topic so if you wish to educate me further on meaning of sarcasm I sagest u do it in pm for the sake of both us being edited.
Glad to see you take the moral highground. Now don't fall and break your neck. BTW I choose to keep this public so anyone who would raise the subject as you have - will know the possible cons of it.
No. That's a point. We have space for a reason. See? I pointed something out. Now if you couldn't figure out the reason - it's to make new characters. Pointing out obvious is sarcasm espetially in the matter you did.
BTW I choose to keep this public so anyone who would raise the subject as you have - will know the possible cons of it.
Ah, this one made me laugh.
Pointing out obvious is sarcasm espetially in the matter you did.
Ah, this one made me laugh. You sound like college student that just finished first writing class and thinks he know everything, been there tho.
Oh you can fuck right off.
HOWS THAT FOR ENGLISH LANGUAGE?
Oh you can fuck right off.
HOWS THAT FOR ENGLISH LANGUAGE?
hehe, seems that it was the last drop too bad you can't carry on light debate. So we all can see now cons of it.
I edited my previous post though it was kind of rude but you where asking for it.
i think SI should be removed.
about 3 weeks since i delted my capped droner due to all the bugs, not because i wanted to loose a capped char, but becasue i was no longer willing to put up with the years of neglect to them, so i rolled a new pistol spy.
i could have spent ages doing all 430 loms needed to remove pure drone but at what about 5 minutes per lom i would be wasting my entire gaming time on something as pointless as that.
430 x 5min = just short of 36 hours.
4 hours a day for 9 days, fuck that, and fuck lom SI
@ hudson, notice the saturn hate from uranus and pluto nibs.....whats that all about O_o
Jesterthegreat
03-11-04, 23:46
Furthermore - I vote that GG and Lol be erased from existance on account of they are the most irritating phrases/shorthands I have ever come across.
thats just not true... some people call VENOM "CS script kiddies! ROFFLES!"
iwould fowrard the whole thing as idiotic, but especially the "roffles"...
:edit:
@ hudson, notice the saturn hate from uranus and pluto nibs.....whats that all about O_o
maybe its things like "uranus and pluto nibs"? surely its not that hard to work out... the majority of all servers are egotistical... and saturn just has a larger majority :p
Okay - Plague. PMed you the flamefest. But I would put this to you - MAKE A POINT.
At the mo - you're quite happy to troll and pick at my points. I'd like to see some really groundbreaking points - other than "I'm impatient".
Okay - Plague. PMed you the flamefest. But I would put this to you - MAKE A POINT.
At the mo - you're quite happy to troll and pick at my points. I'd like to see some really groundbreaking points - other than "I'm impatient".
am tired of this, i had a point and it's still there check my first post again. And what impations have to do with anything... o_O
The problem is people are spoiled having had LoM's for so long. Changing your profession should be a radical step. If anything it's *too* easy already!
If you find yourself bored with what your capped char can do, create a new one in another slot. If you've filled up all 4 slots with capped chars and still want to do something else, then delete one of your chars. If you can't be bothered to spend the time to level up a new char then you should check into why you're still playing nc. If you're determined to stay despite that, then look into buying another account.
The problem is people are spoiled having had LoM's for so long. Changing your profession should be a radical step. If anything it's *too* easy already!
If you find yourself bored with what your capped char can do, create a new one in another slot. If you've filled up all 4 slots with capped chars and still want to do something else, then delete one of your chars. If you can't be bothered to spend the time to level up a new char then you should check into why you're still playing nc. If you're determined to stay despite that, then look into buying another account.
you make a good point but i completely disagree.
so what if other mmo's dont let you re-skill, NC is the buggiest game of all time, people need to switch so they cant take part effectively in pvp, this is a pvp game, not some roleplaying pvm game.
what percentage of people play this to pvm and what percentage to pvp?
i would GUESS 95%-5% in favour of pvp.
if this game had no bugs, no unbareble fuck ups, then maybe people wouldnt need to lom?
Although I can see there is a justified urge for people to LOM quickly, I do disagree with them; but absolutely respect their opinion, don't get me wrong here...
Personally, I am against it as it will upset tradeskilling. You can argue with me simply by saying "hey, it's not unfair because you can do it as well; in fact anybody can do it up to a certain degree". Indeed, it must be enormously frustrating to wait for endless hours to LOM, but PLEASE think of the consequences of a free for all.
It is so unfair to the pure tradeskillers that is unreal. Scenario follows below:
Runner A: Need Resser TL 130!
Runner B: RES TL 140
Runner A: Great. I need 30 BPs. I will tip well...Thanx
Runner B: Ok just a sec to get my tool (Pker nearby getting ready)
Runner C DMing Runner A: Oi mate, why don't you LOM to ressing? The tip will pay for the LOM pills! Don't be a sucker..
Runner B: Ok back!
Runner A: Oh sorry pal. I changed my mind.
Some minutes (not hundreds of hours) later...
Runner A: I need CSTer TL 130!
Runner D: CST TL 150!
Runner A: Fantastic. Can you CST for me please?
Runner D: Sure. Open Trade..
Runner C DMing Runner A: Ah you don't get it, do you? Why don't you LOM to a CSTer......
tomparadox
04-11-04, 12:53
No. One "week of exploiting" is not what I like.
Just XP loss simply would not be enough to stop ppl from it.
Bad luck with the LoMs, get over it.
And those who moaned about loming and then getting rerolled are how many? 1 out of 1000 ppl playing?
Bad idea. actually I know about 10 or 12 who had it happen to them
if not this idea, let us use autolomers. Some of us have lives and don’t have time to mess around with this loming BS.
Edit
The problem is people are spoiled having had LoM's for so long. Changing your profession should be a radical step. If anything it's *too* easy already!
If you find yourself bored with what your capped char can do, create a new one in another slot. If you've filled up all 4 slots with capped chars and still want to do something else, then delete one of your chars. If you can't be bothered to spend the time to level up a new char then you should check into why you're still playing nc. If you're determined to stay despite that, then look into buying another account.
good point but I don’t agree, but I have 2 accounts, both filled with chars I need and chars I need to lom. I get time on the weekends to play that’s about it and im going to be damned if I half to sit there on the weekends loming something because of new items. We should at least have the right to lom for new items because new things are in the game that people want but can’t get because of the stupid lom. imo they should let us use 1 week without SI on lomes so that we can adjust our chars to NC2 not NC classic - right now most of them are setup for NC classic setups.
Edit: damn, finely got my self word 2003. It works nice with this spell check :D
I'm all for it, remove the synaptic. Changing and fine tuning your character is one of the things that keeps people playing. The suggestion that if you want to change you create a new character is to me a terrible punishment. At the end of the day we are losing experience points so I can't really see how anyone can exploit being able to lom quickly.
Lomming is part of what makes the game good, note how many people have tried being a sniper, got bored, and then changed to pistol for instance. This also allows KK to balance the game properly without completely screwing loads of people over.....umm...theoretically of course, balancing is a never ending flamefest.
Lets also not forget the people who are new to the game who would never be able to get their points right the first time, no way, you have to be able to change points later. When I first started in retail on Neocron 1 this was the way it worked, but thank god they allowed us lom in time because most of our characters were borked ;)
Take the synaptic out, or at least reduce it to half its current degree.
What if we have one (or two) free LOMage Day(s) every two months or something?
Doc Holliday
04-11-04, 14:35
Skipped most of the thread. its a tried and tested arguement for and against and the best way i see it now given the level grind nerfage of nc2 ( apparently ) is remove si keep the xp hit or even increase it. i dropped a mill per lom last night fixing my monkey. psi capped at 100. 7 loms later 7 mill gone. if that was higher but cost more to use them then i woulda been out quicker and actually doing something like questing or having fun or simply enjoying the game.
please please do not i beg u go back the old LOL pills as i call em. ie the non synap removal of level. i dropped 10-15 levels accross a pe with these back in the day and this was without ap sanct/chaos caves even being open etc so levelling was a grind in retrospect.
LOMs should be made less attractive not more so. I voted "no".
I think this would be a step in the wrong direction.
Optimally the game should be made as such that things such as LoMs aren't necesarry at all except when a patch makes severe changes to skills, or to put it differently, every single possible class should be possible to cap, from pure trader spy to pure combat tank.
Removing disadvantages from LoMs just makes it so that this isn't really necesarry, players get around such levelling problems using LoMs, while if the LoMs weren't around, work would have to be done on balancing out the various forms of levelling.
Just look at the average advice for making a trader (or a PPU!) you see:
Just level as [class] then LoM to [class] it's the only real way of doing so.
The solution to that isn't changing the LoM pills to accomodate this, the real solution is to make every single class viable to level. It does take a while to sort that stuff out, but eventually it'll be better for the game as a whole.
EDIT: If anyone wishes to counter with "But it'll be only for one patch!" remember that people will always want to go back to the most advantageous state for them, the biggest mistake KK ever made when it comes to LOMs was to originally introduce them without penalties!
@ jernau
say for example after 2 years (not sure how u've lasted) decided enough was enough and fucked off drones you would need about 430 loms assuming u r still pure drone.
that to me is un-acceptable.
however if SI cannot be removed what about the option of auto loming?
I know the macro exists and know loads of people who have used it in the past and more recently.
[edit] @ j.folsom but there would still be a penalty, loosing 1mill per lom at cap is enough, equally loosing 500k at base 90 is enough IMHO
You miss my point. I want them removed entirely. I do not like the way they've changed the game for the worse.
It was better when characters were different and each flawed in their own varied ways. It was better when characters actually had some character and you were playing as your own person and not something you found on the forums or were given by another player.
Remove LoMs completely - bring back the fun part of character generation and growth. LoMs just rip the heart out of the game.
You miss my point. I want them removed entirely. I do not like the way they've changed the game for the worse.
It was better when characters were different and each flawed in their own varied ways. It was better when characters actually had some character and you were playing as your own person and not something you found on the forums or were given by another player.
Remove LoMs completely - bring back the fun part of character generation and growth. LoMs just rip the heart out of the game.
afraid i still disagree, but i will agree to disagree.
afraid i still disagree, but i will agree to disagree.
Fair enough. I realise this is one I won't win.
They've been in too long and people have gone soft. In fact most people now probably never even knew the game before it had the cursed things.
Fair enough. I realise this is one I won't win.
They've been in too long and people have gone soft. In fact most people now probably never even knew the game before it had the cursed things.
i do.
i remember no loms, then lol pills, then loms that actually removed 5 points from the skill, meaning 110apu 1 lom would remove 5 apu points = 25 skill points, followed by the present loms.
dont think i missed any, although maybe the order is wrong.
i do.
i remember no loms, then lol pills, then loms that actually removed 5 points from the skill, meaning 110apu 1 lom would remove 5 apu points = 25 skill points, followed by the present loms.
dont think i missed any, although maybe the order is wrong.
Pretty much :).
Before LoLs they had no side-effects at all. The first attempt to reduce their use was a price increase which was utterly useless.
My point was that LoM's only exist because KK is constantly making really drastic changes to how skills/equipment work. I agree that it's unacceptable to expect us to delete/recreate every time KK makes a change. But we shouldn't fall into the trap of assuming they will always exist as part of the game. Assuming NC2 lasts that long and assuming kk does actualy iron out most of the problems, then there should a point when they can safely remove LoM's from the game. Every so often if there is something that needs to be tweaked, kk always has the option of releasing skill points. It happened many times in NC1, especialy for monks. So I don't agree with anything to make LoMing easier, it should remain annoying/time consuming. It should not be something we take for granted.
Not only do LoM's ruin tradeskills, but more importantly they mask many of the biggest problems in Neocron. The ability to jump around to whatever profession we need means that profession doesn't need to be fully fleshed out. Who cares that researchers are boring as hell and no fun to play? You just LoM to ressing while you need one, then LoM back. The missions we recently got are the first time ressers actualy get a decent leveling system. How long has it been? How about how the most common way to start a ppu is as an apu or hybrid and then lom over? Most tradeskillers even are combat oriented to gain levels quickly then lom over. These are problems that need to be addressed.
Just fyi, here's a quick timeline on LoM's:
- Just like ppu's, LoM's were not originaly part of the retail nc1. After a series of patches that drasticly changed the way skills work and the reqs on equipment the usual skill wipe wasn't working.
- LoM's were introduced with the intention of being removed in a following patch. The purpose was simply to allow us to keep our characters despite radical changes the previous patch had made. The first generation of LoM's were instant and had no level loss, just exp reduction.
- LoM's are abused by almost every single player in Neocron, popping them like candy. We would swap professions multiple times a day. The worst offenders were tradeskillers, myself included. We would switch back and forth between a combat setting and a tradeskiller setting. We'd also jump around between tradeskills depending on what we need. You could literaly go pure researcher to bp items, then switch to pure constructor to build items, and mix in a pure barter step to buy/sell.
- In an attempt to curb this, prices on LoM's were jacked way up. But then money doesn't have much meaning in nc, nor did it back then.
- Official statement was made that LoM's would be phazed out over the next few patches. Rumours abounded about how they were going to do it, something like each patch adding negatives until they finnaly remove them. Adding SI, adding level loss, etc.
- Well we got the negatives, first massive SI, then moderate SI and level loss. But they were never removed and it wasn't long before people considered them a feature of Neocron.
hudsonbeck
04-11-04, 18:50
My entire point was that "we" (people of Saturn) were hit hard with a three week loss of playtime!
I don’t care that I have to gain the xp back, for the most part, its fun and interactive.
What I do care about is the fact that I spent two weeks LoMing to prepare for NC2. I LoMed most of my characters because I did not play them anymore because major game mechanics were changed and it was no fun to play my characters in the state they were in... This is a Game and it is (to me) about having fun.
I can not stomach LoMing again. I did it once and I should not have to do it again. I am not asking for a permanent change, just a temporary change to help us who were so severely effected by the rollback. Yes, I know that others will take advantage of the proposed change if it were to be implemented, but that’s why you keep the xp loss in place.
I also feel that LoM's should always be in NC. I think that how they are now is fine. I ask you how many times you LoMed? NC when you really get into it is a very complicated game and to never allow players to change a mistake that was made is idiotic. How many actual new players would stay around once they get high lvl and realize that they get owned every time by someone just because they put points in a skill when they knew little about the game and now have no option other than delete and start from scratch? I think many would just say fuck this and move on to the next game.
Again, I am not asking for a permanent change. Just a patch period or so to allow us the benefit of not sitting in our apts for days or weeks again for the 2nd or 3rd time because of rollbacks. I don’t think that is much to ask.
Hudson
@Carinth - you missed out the LoL stage which IMO is the only way they should be allowed to stay ingame long-term. I'd rather have skill-releases if we ever have another patch 160.
QuantumDelta
04-11-04, 20:50
For every SI % Dropped off, increase the XP Loss correspondingly with the current XP % Loss.
So 142% Of current XP Loss or something.
--
Works for me.
Leave about 5% SI.
LoMing being instant was stupid, funny, but stupid.
I used to buy bulk loms and some stam boosters, and my chars bounced between skills.
Quite funny at the time.
Freaky Fryd
04-11-04, 21:06
Due to the rollbacks, I would agree to having 2 *maybe* 3 days of lomming without SI...but not a full week...
Have 3 days spread out of a week and announced well ahead...say a Monday, Wednesday and Saturday...
Dribble Joy
04-11-04, 21:13
I do believe that there should be a method of changing profession/skills in the game somehow.
I don't mind how LoMs are now, the big SI hit is something of a deterrant and quick changing/reskilling should not be allowed.
I voted YES but keep the change PERMANENT!!!
tomparadox
05-11-04, 00:46
You miss my point. I want them removed entirely. I do not like the way they've changed the game for the worse.
It was better when characters were different and each flawed in their own varied ways. It was better when characters actually had some character and you were playing as your own person and not something you found on the forums or were given by another player.
Remove LoMs completely - bring back the fun part of character generation and growth. LoMs just rip the heart out of the game.
ok, i disagree, forgive me for saying this, but thats just a dumb idea. i would leav, i meen, screw up on a skill without meening to and you half to reroll, get sick of a skill and you half to reroll. its BS, why make everyone who dosent like there skill half to reroll it would be dumb, and annoying...
ok, i disagree, forgive me for saying this, but thats just a dumb idea. i would leav, i meen, screw up on a skill without meening to and you half to reroll, get sick of a skill and you half to reroll. its BS, why make everyone who dosent like there skill half to reroll it would be dumb, and annoying...
Because it's more fun that way. Go play any other RPG and you'll see what I mean.
NC is full of clones thanks to LoMs. It's boring knowing that every tank you fight is identical, Spies only have two flavours, etc.
Remove LoMs, remove specialisation, bring back fun characters.
Freaky Fryd
05-11-04, 10:43
It's boring knowing that every tank you fight is identical, Spies only have two flavours, etc.
Nah, that's just good reason to remove reqs from MC5 chips, and bring Kami chips back...
Because it's more fun that way. Go play any other RPG and you'll see what I mean.
NC is full of clones thanks to LoMs. It's boring knowing that every tank you fight is identical, Spies only have two flavours, etc.
Remove LoMs, remove specialisation, bring back fun characters.
Best explanation yet.
*Pokes jernau*
As a side note - I'd like to show you the tank I'm playing at the moment - complete rarehunting machine.
Not meant for anything else other than rarehunting - he's specced for a max weapon use of a cursed soul - no moveon to make room for other nice stuff to help with hunting - Fully resistant to firemobs only - and one HUGE stack of health.
Looks very pretty.
Best explanation yet.
*Pokes jernau*
As a side note - I'd like to show you the tank I'm playing at the moment - complete rarehunting machine.
Not meant for anything else other than rarehunting - he's specced for a max weapon use of a cursed soul - no moveon to make room for other nice stuff to help with hunting - Fully resistant to firemobs only - and one HUGE stack of health.
Looks very pretty.
and also a complete gimp when it comes to pvp, which is why 90% of us play?
Jesterthegreat
05-11-04, 12:46
and also a complete gimp when it comes to pvp, which is why 90% of us play?
hence the "not meant for anything else other than rarehunting"?
tomparadox
05-11-04, 13:04
Because it's more fun that way. Go play any other RPG and you'll see what I mean.
NC is full of clones thanks to LoMs. It's boring knowing that every tank you fight is identical, Spies only have two flavors, etc.
Remove LoMs, remove specialisation, bring back fun characters. now I see your point a bit more, nice point but still ganna half to disagree. Every tank I fight isn’t identical, nor spy nor PE nor monk. btw, I have played many MMOs, eve, tested: SWG( lag hell, don’t try it ), MU, L2, RO ( kind of O_otbh ), not a huge list, but iv seen a lot.
Btw, what do you mean "specializations"? Oo
Nah, that's just good reason to remove reqs from MC5 chips, and bring Kami chips back... I agree, but wouldn’t that make MC5 even more camped?
Jesterthegreat
05-11-04, 13:10
now I see your point a bit more, nice point but still ganna half to disagree. Every tank I fight isn’t identical, nor spy nor PE nor monk. btw, I have played many MMOs, eve, tested: SWG( lag hell, don’t try it ), MU, L2, RO ( kind of O_otbh ), not a huge list, but iv seen a lot.
Btw, what do you mean "specializations"? Oo
I agree, but wouldn’t that make MC5 even more camped?
specialisation would be a tank with herc / marine / moveon needed to get the best efficiancy out of heavy weapons...
specialisation would be APU's speccing the most APU possible (realisticly) for the best HL damage...
specialisation is what stopped a PE being a JOAT and turned him into a mini-py or a mini-tank
Nah, that's just good reason to remove reqs from MC5 chips, and bring Kami chips back...MC5s without Reqs was insane (even if it was fun).
Kamis should never have been removed.
@Tom - Of those MMORPGS you played how many allowed you to completely reskill your character every day if you wanted to? None that I've played or read about do, neither do any of the single player or traditional RPGs I've known.
There is a reason for this - to make the characters more personal and more human, to give them their own lives. That includes flaws, mistakes and everything else.
Specialisation : Up until almost exactly 2 years ago you needed a lot less points in each skill to be effective. Weapon TLs and reqs were less, stat caps were lower, there were less pointless skill-sinks, etc. This meant you could be completely viable with two or more combat skills and maybe even a tradeskill on top of that. Monks were all what we would now call "hybrids" but they were underpowered if anything.
I'm not saying balance was perfect then - hell it was much worse that now in some ways but it was more fun because you weren't limited in the way we are now. How often now to you see a tank pull a Libby or a PE on you? How often do you see spies levelling with low-mid level nade launchers to get AoE? How many great tradeskillers and also great fighters? etc. etc.
KK opted for heavy specialisation in the misguided belief it would be easier to balance (or that's my theory). It clearly wasn't successful in that goal and it's made the game more restricted. Who plays an MMO to be restricted? The whole idea is to escpae into another world.
LoMs make this problem much worse because they allow people to be 100% specialised and "perfect". This further homogenises characters according to class/skill. Everyone has to do it that way because it's the norm and making a different character is frowned on (just look at the Quikfix's response to Spermy above - no offence Quickfix) and makes you so much less effective in so many ways.
i did not vote, there's no matching option:
add a new sort of lom pills -> Concentrated Loss of Memory
Effects: 25% more xp loss than the normal ones, no SI
Costs: 50k (or something like that) for one pill (get it from a NPC with clicking dialog, for no barter effect)
- money sink, new content (weeee)
We've gotten the mind set that our chars must be perfect, every point must be distributed exactly right. That's due to specialization, in which you really do need every point to get the most out of your character.
What jernau is saying is that before kk went crazy with specialization, it was ok to not be perfect. You could get away with only half or 2/3 of your points towards combat. The rest could go into alternate combat skills or tradeskills.
The creation of the ppu was the start of the specialization binge, but even then it wasn't as bad as now. At my best I was a tradeskiller ppu, yet I was competing with combat ppu's. I was a PPU / Implanter / Researcher / Driver / Repairer, and I did just fine in pvp. As specialization was made more important I had to give up my tradeskills in order to compete with the combat ppu's. The speed/damage gulf grew too large.
Jesterthegreat
05-11-04, 18:02
Of those MMORPGS you played how many allowed you to completely reskill your character every day if you wanted to? None that I've played or read about do, neither do any of the single player or traditional RPGs I've known.
DAoC (although aquiring respec / realm respec stones is harder than aquiring loms :p)
DAoC (although aquiring respec / realm respec stones is harder than aquiring loms :p)
Exactly - they don't drop of mobs in noob sewers or sell for pennies in dozens of shops.
Dribble Joy
05-11-04, 18:27
Even with specialisation removed (which I may or may not disaprove of) I believe that there should be some method of reskilling without having to reroll.
Jesterthegreat
05-11-04, 18:27
Exactly - they don't drop of mobs in noob sewers or sell for pennies in dozens of shops.
if there was a really hard area that dropped something like that would you agree with it then? (im talkin like the woc caves that aren't easy)
did i read there were really hard Y-Rep ceres caves? something that kinda difficulty dropping with almost woc disc droprate... make a few dungeons with it, make it respawn every hour or something to lower camping
Well, I voted for keeping them as they are... And I was from Saturn, so I DID lose a ton of stuff in the rollback (faction change, xp, lommed stuff, rares - all the usual) - I just got over it and did it all again...
I agree with everything Carinth said above - we're lucky to have them, and if everything wasn't set up the way it is now, LoMs will probably become one of the most abused aspects of the game...
if there was a really hard area that dropped something like that would you agree with it then? (im talkin like the woc caves that aren't easy)
did i read there were really hard Y-Rep ceres caves? something that kinda difficulty dropping with almost woc disc droprate... make a few dungeons with it, make it respawn every hour or something to lower camping
Something like that would be fine. Just stopping them from dropping on plants and putting them into all the new 127/127 mobs would be pretty good actually. You'd have to kill a lot of mobs to get enough of the ones you want to do a complete reskill. Obviously they'd have to come out the shops too.
I also like many of the ways other games do it, eg skill releases at certain levels, complex missions (WAY longer than we have in NC), time-based (ie every six months you get an item you can use or sell that frees skills), paying a small RL fee, etc.
@DJ - I don't see any reason to reskill unless KK change the game enough to warrant it. I can see why others want to tweak constantly but I think that damages the game.
did i read there were really hard Y-Rep ceres caves? something that kinda difficulty dropping with almost woc disc droprate... make a few dungeons with it, make it respawn every hour or something to lower camping
Check zone i10, theres a YRep WoC dungeon there. It's the same as the underground for Mine Ops, just full of Y Reps. Literaly you could have over 6 in a hallway and very little cover. It's similar to the DOY Tunnels, if you manage to get them one at a time or maybe two it's ok. But when they call backup and a swarm of 6 Y reps run after you, not even the best ppu will make it out. I died getting someone's belt, then died again getting the belt of the ppu that tried to get my belt. : D
LOMs...dont...drop from plants....i think they did in nc1, but they dont now, unless they are disguised as wood... o_O
LOMs...dont...drop from plants....i think they did in nc1, but they dont now, unless they are disguised as wood... o_O
They did in beta - I haven't tried in retail as I don't have a low enough level character to get anything from them (except maybe wood).
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