View Full Version : APU spell balancing
I really cant stand the holy lightning anymore. Its insane dmg output compared to its TL boggles my mind. Im sitting there on my spy doing 1/3 the dmg of a weapon (Holy lightning) that is 14 tech levels below my disruptor.
To compound the issue I have to aquire a target while the apu is placing bolt after bolt on me rapid fire. If I try to run I find myself being nailed 3 maybe 4 times after I round a corner or activate stealth.
The holy lightning seems to just melt through any resists I have. My tank has 98 natural energy resist and another 40 in armor and the HL eats right through it as if I were on my spy. Even with a holy shelter on the HL does fairly good dmg.
If the holy lightning was TL115 and took a lot more APU/PSU to cap I would not have as much of a problem. But when APUs run around killing everything in 5 shots and then are able to hack the belt it becomes an unbalanced situation. If my capped spy had the DMG output of a capped APU and could still hack any belt, this would be spy'o'cron.
I dont want that of course, so cant their be a happy medium found? Perhaps the TL of holylightning could be matched with its dmg output to start. Also, many before me have proposed an APU reticule that increases your spells dmg the tighter it becomes. To go along with that concept, MST/APU shoudl be used to determine how fast the reticule closes. Therefore more MST points than are required by the spell will need to be invested in order to be most effective. It does not seem right that all other classes have to wait until they can shoot something while monks have 100% accuracy as long as they see a target box. Not to mention their spells can be runcast at incredible frequencies and they dont have to reload.
In a roleplay sense shouldnt a monk have to concentrate (IE let their reticule close fully) before maximum damage is dealt? One class should not have point and click play while the others have skill based aiming and dmg output.
I would like everyones thoughts on this please and try to keep the thread clean.
Thanks.
if i have a recticle i want max damage everytime then :P....and less the farther out the recticule is the lower the damage "ie less concentrate"
nuff said :P
I think you are agreeing with me :)
Yes less forcused ret. means lower dmg and possible fizzle, or maybe even miss (like it hits another targetable object nearby). However, if you wait the half a second for it to focus all the way you get full dmg output and accuracy.
Well the insane damage output done by monks is "explained" through that monks are not capable to take that much damage... which KK fucked by giving monks 5 lvls more CON than spies and psi based armor (which anyone agrees is easily the best all around armor in the game), so this leads to the fact that monks can be hall of a damage dealers, damage takers (close to PE by comparision) and because of their insane 100 INT they can even have that hack in them too.
If we break it down to the formula of, less damage input = more damage output
We would have spies on top of the game since they have easily the weakest armor and have the least amount of CON.
Then we have monks with the best armor because of it's versatility (it has all resists plus they can use heavy resist belts).
After that PEs with their normal armor but pretty solid CON to play on resists.
Tanks with their ubar armor but non the less resist specific.
But because KK doesn't play by it's own rules we have this mixature where monks are the best damage dealers with their second best armor/resist setup.
Spies are ment to cover this with range (if you are rifle that is ;) ), actually trash that, spies are ment to be tradeskillers or droners. Fighting is left to the he-man classes like monks and tanks.
THE_TICK!!!!
26-10-04, 07:36
i dont know where you got your information..but to hack a belt you need at least a 100 hack to make sure you can get in a belt..a APU would be severily gimped if he had 100 hack..not even sure if he COULD cap a holy lightning..and i think your tanks resi's are not quit right if you take that much damage from an hl...unless they upped the damage ? im not in nc2 atm due to the war in iraq..have they upped the damage ?
I played a spy for loooong time. And yes you do die for 3-5 HL hits (depends on the random damage).
Spys have advantage to apus though , its range. Now, I do know about clipping etc etc, but its very possible (and fun might I ad) .. to take first shot with SH to leg (apu is slower than a 0/2 noob) and finnish him off with HL.
If done right, the APU is dead within 10 seconds (timed this) if he is lucky to get close enough (meaning you were too cocky and started shooting him too close) , he might get one or two HL on you, but you will survive.
I agree on the fact that if APU gets close enough to spam HL on you, there is little to do. If you were not aware of APUs presense, you rarely have enough time to stealth. Usually APU have targeted you, and eevn if you do stealth the last hit comes "through" stealth (becasue he was aiming and fireing) before the stealth activated.
But as I see it, its only down to circuistnaces, small area, close combat = usually apu wins,
plain field, good distance and APU doesent have a chancse (just have to time your attack perfectly).
edit: about the damage comparison between spy/tank against HL.
did you do really some "testing" or were you shot dead one time ?.
Since APU spells have random damage, it could just mean that your spy had crappy damage on him and tank got lucky with uber damage...
and about shelter... yesterday me and another apu dueled ... with shelter the damage was reduced greately (cant give you any figures though).
i have to agree with na koth,
apu's have great advantages like good damage and great resists...
but
disadvantages are that you can't heal ( apu monk is only class that can't heal
range is idd quite poor
most apu's can't get enough speed on them cuz dex is a pain to level and constitution is needed for hp and resists.
i personally think its fairly balanced cuz when a spy is on long range the apu would stand a chance. Even if a apu would jump behind a mountain you could easily stealth to another position without being seen and shoot him from there. Also i dont know alot of apu's that hack but i know if a apu hacks that its gonna cost you freq on your spells...
I play a apu for almost 2 years now and experienced enough times that they were nerfed and boosted. after all that is done with monks this is best ever yet if you look at balance...
greetz gurt
edit :
my apu with his resists takes this damage...
ravager ( fire modded ) 32 damage per shot
cs ( fire modded ) 75 damage per 4 shots
RoG ( X-ray modded ) 64 damage per 2 shots
Sure, in a 1vs 1 close battle, the apu has an advantage, but imo stealth more than makes up for this disadvantage. And why not stay stealthed in close quarters, hard for the apu to get the jump on you if he can't see/target you.
-=Dredduk=-
26-10-04, 09:57
Hmmmmmmm
Your all are mention how easy it is to kill apu at long distance...
but what is a pe, pistol spy and any tank ment to do?
To me its like this:
If a apu sees you first your dead (unless your lucky)
If you see him first you still might die but not as much as.... long as you take the legs out or do major dmg to him in first shot.
Well all this time you spend playing your monks have you tried playing a spy?
Yeah it is easy to stealth, but it lags, it is the same as with spells, it can't be used right away after you change your weapon, there is allmost a seacond lag in there (it wasn't this way in NC1) which comes down to another two or three HLs and death. And even if you manage to stealth in close quarters, BAM legs gone onoz the floor is full of wiggly jiggly lightnings or better yet fire. The barrells are uber effective now, I have been killeg like three times by them, monk can spam 5 of them in a nanosecond and take your legs, if you try to run it comes down to HL.
Bugs Gunny
26-10-04, 10:38
We got an apu hacker in the clan and with the crahn glove i think it's quite possible to do.
apu's have great advantages like good damage and great resists...
:lol: :lol:
Spawn you should really compare capped spy and capped monk(apu), not capped tank and capped monk(apu).
Monk vs. spy
monk con 45 > spy con 40
monk psi based armor > spy str based
spy x-ray bones > monk basic bones
monk heavy belts = spy heavy belts
So only real advantage spies have over monks is their x-ray bones and x-ray resist from PA but guess what.. monks don't do x-ray damage. And if you take str imps and gimp your spy, you can get inq 1 oooh.
apu's have great advantages like good damage and great resists...
:lol: :lol:
What, with full holy spirit armour (minus belt and chest) and pa3 on, an apu gets 154 energy resist. That means you don't even need to spec energy in con and you are already (practically) guranteed to have a better energy resist than a spy or pe. An undbed, holy sheltered APU with this armour setup will not die to a holy lightning when they have a holy heal streaming.
With either a fire belt or poison belt and you don't have to spec either of those resists, meaning you only have to spec two resists, athletics and body health on an APU. Not sure about you, but I'd say they are great resists :rolleyes:
@ Threadstarter..
APU's are meant to be powerful, simply because they have shite resists..
so far they've had range nerfed, had random damage thrown at em!
Its not just what KK do to the classes, its also how people play them.
If an APU was to stand still in a fight he'd be dead.. its only due to skill that an APU can overcome their enemy..
APU's are meant to be powerful, simply because they have shite resists.
Pardon me, since when?
Read above your post, they outline the "resists" part pretty well.
Pardon me, since when?
Read above your post, they outline the "resists" part pretty well.
Compared to everyother class that can heal.. err.. Everyone knows natural resists are better than armour etc..
//edit : Apu's have such a high energy resist.. simply because of APU vs APU situations.. most people use the Holy Lightning to fight..
Compared to everyother class that can heal.. err.. Everyone knows natural resists are better than armour etc..
We do? That's news to me.
Natural Resists are better then armour? howso :wtf: I'd rather have 154 armour energy resist than 154 natural energy resist, considering with the natural resist I'd only be getting 119 armour due to the cap.
I see a lot of talk about APU's resists and armour, and even some about how invincible they are with holy shelter and holy heal cast on them (which is completely irrelavant, its not casted by the APU).
What I don't see people taking into account are buffs that spy can access. Most spies I know drug up for shelter. With resist booster, shelter, deflector and a combat buff, the improve their defence and save points they can then spend on other skills. They also have the ability to heal during a fight, and if they time it right stealth off and heal.
While the spy is behind a hill healing the APU is munching on medkits. When the spy comes back into the fight fully healed, the APU is gonna be sitting watching the medkit slowwwwlllyyy tick their health back up.
Rinse and repeat = dead APU.
If you can't do that as a spy (1 on 1) you either have a bad setup, or are too slow on stealth
Look take any other class.. self buff yourself and get shot with a CS.. you can stand their for atleast a few shots..
take an APU.. no self buffs no heal.. shot with a CS.. boom leg shot..
Stop whining about APU's, get some skills.. Ive played an APU for two years.. Theyve been nerfed to hell and back, first our range got halfed then random damage..
So when we go to fight sometimes we hit lucky and get a HIGH random damage, or we can be unlucky and get something insanely low..
Seriously tho have you ever played an APU? do you actually know how hard it can be.. untill then guys you havent got a a clue. :rolleyes:
Natural Resists are better then armour? howso :wtf: I'd rather have 154 armour energy resist than 154 natural energy resist, considering with the natural resist I'd only be getting 119 armour due to the cap.
natural resists cap at 114. wth armor resists it caps at 200.
so :wtf:
you read up, natural resists are supposed to give a 0.3 or something better resist than armor resists.
anyway, why would you only have a character with only 154 in energy resists? most people i know want to fully cap their resists o_O especially the most common used one...
First of all, PSU doesnt affect damage, only range and freq. An APU that hacks still cant hack any higher SL belts (unless severly gimped). As someone said, APU is the ONLY class that cant heal. Sure, they do good damage, but unless they got a PPU strapped to their back, an APU goes down very quickly.
In my opinion (slightly biased since I dont have any rifle/pistol spy) APUs are in no way at all overpowered when compared with a Spy. The spy have loads better range but an APU have better damage. What else? Spy can heal and cast shelt with drug. APU? ehh.... They can do damage and nothing else. Unless the APU comes really close to the spy without the spy noticing, the APU will never have a chance killing the spy. If you dont believe me, then ask Spyware on Terra how well he does against APUs (or against anyone for that matter). Unfortunately he's abit TOO good at getting away when he starts getting hurt.
Its all about knowing how to play the character well. Theres nothing that can outdamage a spy over some range. And a well setup and skilled Spy does extremely well in closecombat too. Seems like those that doesnt know how to play their Spy well always complains while those that does actually are silent since they are afraid of instead being NERFed! A good Spy ROCK!
Yes I've played an apu (granted not for as long as you have) but still, I've played them enough to know about them, so to speak. Really the amount of apus that run around without a ppu is pretty small (really shouldn't be bringing the ppu into this, but anyway).
However, this thread was mainly concerned with their damage not their resists, and no matter what you say, HL does a considerable amount of damage more then most other weapons even with random damage and such.
Imagine the next situation, in face to face combat, apu can deal so much damage so fast that it can win tank 1on1, now let's take the rest to the picture, you got better resists than spy, tanks self buffs don't scare me much, only thing you should be worried is PE with rifle, they are the only class that can buff, got good con and have long range guns. But then comes the hybrids on the set, 1on1 situation you just can't compete with a buffed monk that is running around with HL.
Now to the other point, when there is 2on2 where there is any other class /w ppu against apu /w ppu the apu /w ppu team will win because of the antibuff and much much larger damage output than any other class, in this combo even the range doesn't mean shit.
So if you still say apus aren't overpowered you really should put your alarm clock to alarm and WAKE UP!
Yes, HL does more damage than other weapons. So? They cant heal so I think thats as it should be. As lots of people have said, solo APUs arent unbalanced at all, but APUs with a PPU strapped on their back is. But so is all other chars too. As a matter of fact, if any char is overpowered, its the PPUs. But to fix them, thats a task I doubt KK is capable of. (sledgehammer nerfs anyone?)
Back on subject, Spys can do loads of damage (even outdamage a HC tank with CS), they can heal/shelt, have the most awesome range in the game and even have stealth on top of that and you complain that APUs damage are overpowered? A good Spy does soooo much damage that they drop a solo APU in 3 secs flat. If you havnt noticed, there is a reason why most PKs nowadays are actually Spys. Sure, they do a little less damage than APUs, but the Spy can stay alive too which the APU cant.
armor gives better resist dan skill
i always check neocron.ems.ru
i know its not up to date but you can still get a lot of very usefull information
from it
check http://neocron.ems.ru/resist.html
Orion']If you havnt noticed, there is a reason why most PKs nowadays are actually Spys.
Yeah and that is stealth III/obli, you have to go to places you can't without stealth. If PEs could use stealth I believe there would be much more PE PKs than spies tbh.
Yeah and that is stealth III/obli, you have to go to places you can't without stealth. If PEs could use stealth I believe there would be much more PE PKs than spies tbh.
And how would you explain all Spies coming to CRP/Cycrow PKing daily then? Since a PE (or anyone for that matter) can run there easily without a stealthtool. Yes, its still the stealth. And good damage. Good damage paired with an uncanning ability to stay alive makes people play Spys. And more than well make up for the APUs higher damage. Sure, APUs rock with a PPU, but solo, only a hybrid could even dream of matching a Spys ability to stay alive. And around CRP, NOONE comes even near the Spys ability to keep killing people and still stay alive. I'd be much happier if a APU/PPU combo comes than a GOOD Spy since its easier to kill both the APU and the PPU than a skilled Spy (due to stealth).
Luckily there are VERY few GOOD spys...
I have seen many PKs in crp and yes the spy is a pain in the ass, but can easily be ridden of if played with strategy, stay at the op and when he comes there, he is in your range be it you are pe, apu or tank.
But in any means I won't say that spies are the worst pks just because there is ONE pk in crp, and usually the pks in DoY run when they are fronted with force, usually we chase the fuckers away instantly when they log in. It was the same when PEs could stealth, it is a powerful tool when in wrong hands.
Im sorry but if you cant take out a single unbuffed APU on your Spy you're simply a lousy spy.
Basic neocron "fuck you"-attitude, "Im sorry but if you cant take out a single unbuffed APU on your Spy you're simply a lousy spy."
I'm sorry but if you can't prove your point you are a walking neocron forum clishe.
APUs are over nerfed as it is, but do take in mind they are the 'purest' elemental damage doers in NC, take in notice that other class weapons do 2 or more damage types compared to APUs [force+pierce+poison meleers, force+energy+xray spies etc.]. APUs are also helpless without buffs, so you won't expect them to solo anyone without buffs since their equipment costs a lot, their spells cost a lot etc, killing one is easy and the loot... I don't even need to talk about it. Theyr not fast unless you go for pure AGL, their constitution needs good balancing since PPU buffs can't cover their weaknesses unless they configure their const properly. I don't even need to mention how much the APU spell range has gotten nerfed over the years. You [as a spy] have the advantage to shoot from anywhere as long as you have visual, and to stealth out, while the APU with the HL will always be nearby and easy to spot when casting. Yes, you can comment that a APU with buffs is hard to kill... but so is any other class [if you think right].
All in all the class which really needs the balancing are spies... I've taken a look at NC2, you won't see APUs trying to solo raid cities, you'll see pistol\rifle spies. They do massive damage, never miss and are very agile [as spies are meant to be], have better armor than APUs [since they can go for full fire, full energy full pierece, and with drugs they can wear better armor], and are invisible basicly as they can always stealth out when the going gets tough. So the best class and the most failsafe class to choose right now is a Spy [PC more than RC I'd say].
Or rather... lets not change anything. I think NC is good as it is right now [balance wise].
Basic neocron "fuck you"-attitude, "Im sorry but if you cant take out a single unbuffed APU on your Spy you're simply a lousy spy."
I'm sorry but if you can't prove your point you are a walking neocron forum clishe.
And you can't prove yours...
Its spelt cliche.
My prove is that go against a hybrid with any class and die, go figure, no any other class has this advantage, sure it takes time to tweak, but so does the impossible indestructible spy.
Have been in enough friendly duel events to know that pinning anything against a monk is foolish, sure I admit, range is good for spies (who use rifle mind you) and stealth their advantage, and I have been in NC long enough to know what has happened to monks, I had a hybrid back in beta and since it has gotten shittier all the time. And now I don't even care to play my monk anymore.
Cliché Mr. deathrow sync
Bugs Gunny
26-10-04, 14:18
Against an apu i'd say rifle with explosive mod.
However the apu can put several HL onyou and when you stealth the smart apu throws in an energy barrel or firebarrel. Guaranteed death.
Yeah and the good old poison spam is good too, since even if you have good resists you can't survive with a nice stack of poison and stealth away, fire barrel will follow.
My prove is that go against a hybrid with any class and die, go figure, no any other class has this advantage, sure it takes time to tweak, but so does the impossible indestructible spy.
Have been in enough friendly duel events to know that pinning anything against a monk is foolish, sure I admit, range is good for spies (who use rifle mind you) and stealth their advantage, and I have been in NC long enough to know what has happened to monks, I had a hybrid back in beta and since it has gotten shittier all the time. And now I don't even care to play my monk anymore.
Cliché Mr. deathrow sync
Now you talking hybrids. Make your mind up. This thread is about APU's. Go start a new one if you want to talk about hybrids.
Edit: oh and deathrow? If my monk is so overpowered you don't have a chance in hell.
i think apu's are balanced, they have crazy dmg, but they drop like a sack of shit, however get em with a ppu and they are v hard to drop, but that could be said for almost any class tbh.
heres a tip, dont use an nrg weapon on the class with the best nrg armour in the game o_O
Now you talking hybrids. Make your mind up. This thread is about APU's. Go start a new one if you want to talk about hybrids.
Edit: oh and deathrow? If my monk is so overpowered you don't have a chance in hell.
And hybrids don't use apu spells? The title of the thread is "APU spell balancing" and I think it conserns all that use apu spells, even hybrids. Hybrids are especially overpowered with their HL and now they can cap it thanks to crahn epic.
Yes deathrow, 187 is the code for murder, and is also used for deathpenalty aka. deathrow in slang.
hudsonbeck
26-10-04, 15:57
Im sorry but if you cant take out a single unbuffed APU on your Spy you're simply a lousy spy.
That has got to be the Quote of the day!
Well Put and right on target Quake.
Hudson
And hybrids don't use apu spells? The title of the thread is "APU spell balancing" and I think it conserns all that use apu spells, even hybrids. Hybrids are especially overpowered with their HL and now they can cap it thanks to crahn epic.
Yes deathrow, 187 is the code for murder, and is also used for deathpenalty aka. deathrow in slang.
You can't fix hybrids by nerfing APU spells. You fix one thing and break another.
If hybrids need fixing the solution is going to have to be thought out a lot better than that.
Ozambabbaz
26-10-04, 16:46
monks need fixing
monks need fixing
no shit?
I haven't read hole thing but i got the idea, and just wanted to say that what kinda spy get close enough to hostile apu? There was alot of discussions about HL's and it dmg and it has been tested that if you spec you character right u can take quite few hl's. I fought numerous pistol spy's and good setup spy's take minimum 5 hl's and by that time u'd be prolly dead since slashed does silly fast dmg, as for rifle spy's they shouldnot be anywhedre close to hostle apu, on me 55 rifle spy i have yet to die to a apu and even if i get spoted there still plenty of time to stealth....am not even talking about pe's or tanks who can max their energy with eas(and 90 con and 40 in ramor for tank is not even half diesent)....
Ozambabbaz
26-10-04, 17:32
point&click > reticle aiming
no slowdown modules > weapon runspeed impedement
no reload > reloading
HL delayed spam > weapon gfx
HL delayed spam > stealth
HL delayed dmg > weapon dmg
locational dmging HL > any other weapon
point&click > reticle aiming
no slowdown modules > weapon runspeed impedement
no reload > reloading
HL delayed spam > weapon gfx
HL delayed spam > stealth
HL delayed dmg > weapon dmg
locational dmging HL > any other weapon
I don't c anything wrong with that, as a matter of fact I want my boosters reaload atomaticli like r guns, cuz when u run out er rof dropes to 5/hl per minute. No slowdown? the only class that does slow down with gun out is tank rifles barly noticble and am not even talking about pistols. The only thing i agree on it's hl's delyed shots and dmg that sht need to hit right away... Oh and me main char is spy.
Ozambabbaz
26-10-04, 17:42
I don't c anything wrong with that, as a matter of fact I want my bosters reaload atomaticli like r guns. the only thing i agree on it's hl's delaed shots and dmg that sht need to hit right away... Oh and me main char is spy.
i wondered if i should make some comment about u using a mirror and thinking about ur sig :) i hope u can take it as a "me trying to be funny" remark tho
on the serious note, ya gotta balance the classes with the netcode and game design in mind
i wondered if i should make some comment about u using a mirror and thinking about ur sig :) i hope u can take it as a "me trying to be funny" remark tho
Too bad that you can't post with out insult's if you disagree on the topic, very intelligent might I add. :rolleyes:
Ozambabbaz
26-10-04, 18:03
That's a very constructive post right here, especially on the topic... :rolleyes:
Too bad that you can't post with out insult's if you disagree on the topic, very intelligent might I add. :rolleyes:
oh well, u couldn't
so, about ur edits in the previous post, u wouldn't run out of boosters vs. any class in a 1on1, if we're talking team PvP, then u got a strap-on and that's a different discussion, but nevertheless that situation (apu+ppu vs 2 cookie cuts)has a huge impact on the balancing issues, as well as highlighting the obvious disadvantages any non Psi user has compared to monks
and rifles barely noticeable? 80 ath 110 agl on a rifler makes for a slow rifler, while APUs can boast what, 120+ agl un-buffed and just on redflash?
and, while PC classes have little slowdown with weapon drawn, that also works as an disadvantage with reticle using weapons, as u might know
Just remove random damage and adjust HL damageoutput
This subject been argued about for very long time and unfortunately have not been agreed upon both sides. So we can go about arguing about their advantages and disadvantages for ages but then fact remains that there is no fair balance with monks, they either going to be powerful or weak(not worth playing). As it is now I don't c it as too much of a problem.
get a slient hunter. drug for tl 25 shelter. stay out of holy lighting range. use stealth when needed.
your right theres no way for a spy to compete with an apu.
SigmaDraconis
26-10-04, 18:38
from experience as an APU and a spy.........
spy's HL > monk's HL
I have no problems with spell balancing from either side of the fight (for APU's anyway)
point&click > reticle aiming
no slowdown modules > weapon runspeed impedement
no reload > reloading
HL delayed spam > weapon gfx
HL delayed spam > stealth
HL delayed dmg > weapon dmg
locational dmging HL > any other weapon
Psi-Boosters.. o_O are our ammo.. and yes it takes time to regen..
Heal > Medi-kits
There are pro's and con's to every class..
Against an apu i'd say rifle with explosive mod.
However the apu can put several HL onyou and when you stealth the smart apu throws in an energy barrel or firebarrel. Guaranteed death.
Guess you havnt met any really good spy then. A really good spy (and abit too chicken, Id admit) is so fast and good at stealthing that you wont catch them with a barrel that easy. At CRP we get alot of spys PKing.. And most of them gets killed very fast when somone bothers. But there is one that manages to stay alive for ages even though lots of people were hunting him.
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 18:49
A spy who dies in 4-5 hits from a HL is a gimped spy.
Everyone with a brain knows the best spys drug to use inq armour and shelter.
I know for a fact my spy can take over 10 Holy lightnings self buffed, and can (when I pop my resist drugs) take over 20+ fire apocs (while healing)
I dont even want to comment when im holy buffed..
here you go. My spys setup, with PPU buffs, without PPU buffs.
Go copy.
(if you dont mind being a druggy)
I really cant stand the holy lightning anymore. Its insane dmg output compared to its TL boggles my mind. Im sitting there on my spy doing 1/3 the dmg of a weapon (Holy lightning) that is 14 tech levels below my disruptor.
To compound the issue I have to aquire a target while the apu is placing bolt after bolt on me rapid fire. If I try to run I find myself being nailed 3 maybe 4 times after I round a corner or activate stealth.
The holy lightning seems to just melt through any resists I have. My tank has 98 natural energy resist and another 40 in armor and the HL eats right through it as if I were on my spy. Even with a holy shelter on the HL does fairly good dmg.
If the holy lightning was TL115 and took a lot more APU/PSU to cap I would not have as much of a problem. But when APUs run around killing everything in 5 shots and then are able to hack the belt it becomes an unbalanced situation. If my capped spy had the DMG output of a capped APU and could still hack any belt, this would be spy'o'cron.
I dont want that of course, so cant their be a happy medium found? Perhaps the TL of holylightning could be matched with its dmg output to start. Also, many before me have proposed an APU reticule that increases your spells dmg the tighter it becomes. To go along with that concept, MST/APU shoudl be used to determine how fast the reticule closes. Therefore more MST points than are required by the spell will need to be invested in order to be most effective. It does not seem right that all other classes have to wait until they can shoot something while monks have 100% accuracy as long as they see a target box. Not to mention their spells can be runcast at incredible frequencies and they dont have to reload.
In a roleplay sense shouldnt a monk have to concentrate (IE let their reticule close fully) before maximum damage is dealt? One class should not have point and click play while the others have skill based aiming and dmg output.
I would like everyones thoughts on this please and try to keep the thread clean.
Thanks.
Dude, sorry but your spy must sucks then. TBH if you have a nice spy you have a good chance against an APU not buffed.
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 18:51
heres my monk with just ppu buffs, and without holy shelter.
They are more than capable of fucking insane resists...
point&click > reticle aiming
no slowdown modules > weapon runspeed impedement
no reload > reloading
HL delayed spam > weapon gfx
HL delayed spam > stealth
HL delayed dmg > weapon dmg
locational dmging HL > any other weapon
what you need more than one round of ammo for the PE to kill a solo non-buffed APU?
Dargeshaad
26-10-04, 19:15
Few questions to your uber spy:
a) Why does he use an Advanced Heart 2?
b) Did you update your skillmanager with the most recent drug changes?
-Beast is now also -10 HLT
-Nightspider is now also -15 FOR, rendering your 114 FOR a bit pointless
since you'll end up with 99 FOR when drugged
Yes I know with a Strengthen Heart 2 it'll negate the -10 HLT from Beast, I just like correcting you.
My spy setup isn't too different from that one except he's a rifle spy and only use Stealth 2, so yes I'd agree it's a good setup
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 19:20
Few questions to your uber spy:
a) Why does he use an Advanced Heart 2?
b) Did you update your skillmanager with the most recent drug changes?
-Beast is now also -10 HLT
-Nightspider is now also -15 FOR, rendering your 114 FOR a bit pointless
since you'll end up with 99 FOR when drugged
Yes I know with a Strengthen Heart 2 it'll negate the -10 HLT from Beast, I just like correcting you.
My spy setup isn't too different from that one except he's a rifle spy and only use Stealth 2, so yes I'd agree it's a good setup
Yeah its the old skill manager, yup im fully aware of the new drug changes.
Ive changed the transport since obviously :cool: I can actually take about 20 HL's+ with holy shelter on. Who says spys suck :rolleyes:
Yeah its the old skill manager, yup im fully aware of the new drug changes.
Ive changed the transport since obviously :cool: I can actually take about 20 HL's+ with holy shelter on. Who says spys suck :rolleyes:
flame apoc *\o/*
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
:p
apu's arent a problem at all
the problem is apu's dont exist without a ppu glued to their back. Either that or they are all hybrids now.
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 19:28
flame apoc *\o/*
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
:p
Who in there right mind uses that spell! Its horrendous.
Awful dmg, awful ROF.
the only reason id ever use it is this: Hit a spy once, he sets on fire, the game makes him bugged so he is always on fire, follow him until he unstealths.
Exploit? meh :rolleyes: :p
apu's arent a problem at all
the problem is apu's dont exist without a ppu glued to their back. Either that or they are all hybrids now.
Ud be suprised how many players ive killed without a PPU just because of the fact that A) my apu is an insane druggy B) she is stupidly fast, makes it almost impossible to be hit.
This thread is making me sick. People actually conceding that a TL101 spell has MORE dmg than a TL115 wep. Someone said that aiming an APU comes down to purely skill?? HOW?? Its point and click. NEVER try to run from an apu unstealthed because you will get owned. They dont have to wait for a ret. to close, immediate and insane dmg. Not to mention you get hit several times after LOS has been lost.
People who claim that a spy is "the easiest class to keep alive" obviously have never played a spy for very long. Sure if your all the way across the map its easy to kill an apu. But how often does that occur? What about pistol spies/PE, or melee tanks? If an APU sneaks up on you, your dead before the stealth tool can be used. Your also dead before you can pop a nightspider and cast a shelter. Why should one class have to go everywhere perma-drugged and perma-sheltered because another class has a grossly overpowered weapon? What about fights in the cities?? APU > spy. They can run faster, dont have to aim, and you lose your range advantage. The same goes for op wars.
About the reload thing. How many HL strikes can an APU get off before they freq goes down? Because it is a hell of a lot more than my 5 first love bursts or my 8 disruptor bursts. Oh yea, our rifle STILL miss rounds even when the ret. is fully locked.
This thread wasnt meant to talk about how a triple drugged rifle spy across the map can wax an apu. Or how someones spy can take 10HLs (which is total freakin BS). I am talking about the excessively easy aiming of APU spells and the insane dmg output compared to the TL.
BTW, if your a capped apu and dont hack, well your missing out because everyone else does.
I will seriously try to do some experiments and be as scientific as I can. I know its not just me.
SigmaDraconis
26-10-04, 20:16
go cap an APU then and go try PKing a decent rifle spy...
on a less cynical note:
People who claim that a spy is "the easiest class to keep alive" obviously have never played a spy for very long.
if you get hit more than 1-2 times AFTER stealthing its either that damned stealth bug ( ive had several ppl able to see me plain as day after stealthing) or yur slow on activating it, a spy is extremely easy to keep alive, most of it is directly related to your reaction time and common sense really.... i.e. learn to stealth BEFORE someone gets a solid lock on you, or gets within range, and dont bum rush with a freakin rifle spy :\
Sure if your all the way across the map its easy to kill an apu. But how often does that occur?
i run around with my stealth tool out, first sign of a hostile in close range, or first time i get hit its activated, so fairly often i can get range on an enemy even if theyre aware im in the zone. (its best ofcourse just to keep yur eyes open ^^) because obviously, suprise is a huge advantage.
What about fights in the cities?? APU > spy. They can run faster, dont have to aim, and you lose your range advantage.
you're right, in cities usually APU > spy, in open field spy > everything besides another rifler. You're arguing against yourself here.
About the reload thing. How many HL strikes can an APU get off before they freq goes down? Because it is a hell of a lot more than my 5 first love bursts or my 8 disruptor bursts. Oh yea, our rifle STILL miss rounds even when the ret. is fully locked.
this is kind've off youre point but, in my OPINION youre using 2 of the worst rifle rares for PvP, granted disruptor is one of yur best close in weapons, Healing Light and/or Silent Hunter can get you a pretty much garunteed kill in a 1v1 or even 1v2 (excluding a PPU) situation if you use good stealthing tactics, and btw Healing Light rarely misses for me :\
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 20:45
This thread is making me sick. People actually conceding that a TL101 spell has MORE dmg than a TL115 wep. Someone said that aiming an APU comes down to purely skill?? HOW?? Its point and click. NEVER try to run from an apu unstealthed because you will get owned. They dont have to wait for a ret. to close, immediate and insane dmg. Not to mention you get hit several times after LOS has been lost.
People who claim that a spy is "the easiest class to keep alive" obviously have never played a spy for very long. Sure if your all the way across the map its easy to kill an apu. But how often does that occur? What about pistol spies/PE, or melee tanks? If an APU sneaks up on you, your dead before the stealth tool can be used. Your also dead before you can pop a nightspider and cast a shelter. Why should one class have to go everywhere perma-drugged and perma-sheltered because another class has a grossly overpowered weapon? What about fights in the cities?? APU > spy. They can run faster, dont have to aim, and you lose your range advantage. The same goes for op wars.
About the reload thing. How many HL strikes can an APU get off before they freq goes down? Because it is a hell of a lot more than my 5 first love bursts or my 8 disruptor bursts. Oh yea, our rifle STILL miss rounds even when the ret. is fully locked.
This thread wasnt meant to talk about how a triple drugged rifle spy across the map can wax an apu. Or how someones spy can take 10HLs (which is total freakin BS). I am talking about the excessively easy aiming of APU spells and the insane dmg output compared to the TL.
BTW, if your a capped apu and dont hack, well your missing out because everyone else does.
I will seriously try to do some experiments and be as scientific as I can. I know its not just me.
Have you failed to read everything ive said?
My spy, along side dozens others can take countless Fire Apoc's and holy lightnings. SELF BUFFED with no need to stealth.
Sorry, but you need to go and look at my attached setups, and revise your character.
The aiming on a monk is easy yes, but it doesnt mean that even with a reticle it would be harder, i find both rediculously easy.
At the end of the day, APU's unbuffed die so easy to healing lights and executioners I cant see your problem.
Dargeshaad
26-10-04, 20:45
Hoover+Poison Beam+Barrel spell = Usually dead spy
Hoover to get close to him without him noticing it and poison beam for initial spell and barrel the area where those green clouds come from :D
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 20:49
Hoover+Poison Beam+Barrel spell = Usually dead spy
Hoover to get close to him without him noticing it and poison beam for initial spell and barrel the area where those green clouds come from :D
The only APU ive ever faught against who used to fucking make me shit myself was Rage-Mage, he was the only APU on saturn who was wise enough to realise that I couldnt spec against poison.
The moment I saw him I just chewed a poison drug, stealthed, took antidotes and tried to wear him down.
VERY difficult character to fight against with his quick spell changes making belt swop pointless :D
Ozambabbaz
26-10-04, 22:14
so, basicly, in this NC MMO environment, the psi modules are...balanced?
i don't want none of that "spec" stuff, or "get some skills with X item" shit, but instead, ideally, is monk weaponry/counter weaponry balanced in Neocron, with its netcode, player updates, health bounces, firearms dmg, firearms range etc etc
the argument that rifles are meant to be used at range only weigh about a 10th of its actual value, when u look at the perspective with the aforementioned APU range, player updates, local list, health bounce, HL delayed spam, no reticle, no weapon slowdown, monk mainstat spreadout, subskill planning etc.
what do u think
are psi modules balanced?
plz think about it before u answer
Psi mods aren't balanced, they're easy weapons to use in general. But they have less potential than say.. rifles. At long ranges.. well, psi mods don't go that far. Medium range, the no reticle for psi mods gives them an edge, but close up it's a fair fight as rifles lock fast.. and weapons like RoG and HL hit almost all the time.
There shouldn't be a local list, there never should have been one. The only problem I see with psi mods are beam spells, and their ability to hit targets without seeing them if using 3rd person.
Oh, downside to psi mods is.. they're not all runcastable. As in, the monk has to stop moving momentarilly to shoot at all, or heal, or shelter, or any number of things. And fizzle is another down side (when you miss or try to runcast when you can't). With guns, hitting with the previous burst doesn't affect the RoF of the next burst, whereas psi spells do. I think if you fizzle a cast, you basically skip the next shot you're allowed to take before you can fire again, that's how bad it is. Psi spells use psi, which requires taking a booster besides stamina, thus using more quickbelt slots, whereas guns can just reload. Especially with switch-reloading (is that the term?) reloading guns only takes you out of the fight for about 2 seconds, if that. Psi boosters eat like 40-50 stamina and only increase the regen rate for psi, not instantly let you fire. Psi mods would be even better if they had ammo and had to reload.. >.<
Comparing APU spells to rifles, I'd honestly say they're about even considering the APU's defense and a rifler's defense. Actually, without PPUs, I'd say all classes are balanced... except melee shockers. PE (using liberator or pain easer, xray modded) against APU turns out to be a close fight in most cases, PE winning more actually. Spies on a drug or two have equal defense to a PE with a much better offense, so I don't see the problem there. Tanks.. should theoretically destroy APUs, but again it turns out almost even.
My point is that if an apu gets the jump on me their is practically nothing I can do. I dont know every freakin players name and corresponding faction. Therefore, clown would suggest I stealth as soon as ANY name appears in local. Thats fun while hunting. Oh and not only do I have to have my finger on the stealth tools activate button, but I also have to be constantly drugged and constantly sheltered to stand a chance. In all honesty, clown, I dont care about an out of date skill manager picture of your setup. When you I see you take 10 consecutive HL hits I will believe you. Even if that was true however, it does not change the fact that you are at least double drugged, need to be hard capped in the main skills, and even then dont cap RoF on your weapon. Oh yea, monks get to hack as well and dont have a runspeed nerf... :D :D :D
Sure in a duel the fight MAY be balanced, but in the real world it simply is not. APU spells need to be fixed to give other players a fighting chance against them and to stop the exploits which they cause by default.
Locational body area damage with the new seriously fucked leg dmg capacity is probably the most annoying thing at present.
(if you ignore the never ending `non-line of sight/3rd person` Holy War[tm] argument)
Legs are just ludicrously fragile at present.
(Don't even get me started on fall damage)
This locational component amplifies the "zero aim time click'n'hit" versus "reticle close time" factor enormously.
All the stealthing and drug swilling and skill planning in the world won't stop you taking instant root on the spot, like you'd been hit with a TL-300 Omnipotent Deity Parashock, and then having the APU vigorously sodomise you at his leisure. :mad:
Mr Friendly
27-10-04, 04:50
(close to PE by comparision)
PEs have a shelter, basic buffs including a resist buff 1 or 2, & a deflector, possibly a blessed deflector. nearly tripleing the defence of a PE. apus have non of that. 3 shots from a CS & an apu is near dead. 3 Hls to a tank & hes possibly 1/2 dead if he doesnt have good enr resist speccd
My point is that if an apu gets the jump on me their is practically nothing I can do. I dont know every freakin players name and corresponding faction.
a spy is a sniper, spies are not ->meant<- to be up close & personal fighters. they're only 2 things: snipers & assassins. in other words, if ur spotted, there's a good chance u wont kill him b4 he kills u. so yea, u have hella range, all other chars, do not. while at a far distance from your victim, ur class is superior. so dont try to step in to the other class's world cuz if u do *refers to animation below* u will be..Own3D
.... healing light is VERY close to HL dmg.... and you can take more hits than an apu... and stealth around like a little bitch....and heal....and snipe....take out legs.....
solo 1v1 the spy wins.. handsdown...
if not your teh suck
Who in there right mind uses that spell! Its horrendous.
i just like the noise it makes :D
Not the APU is your problem, it's the PPU spaming HH on him...
P.S.: Nerf Spies.
Dargeshaad
27-10-04, 16:16
P.S.: Remove PPUs.
P.S.: Remove PPUs.
agree
5 stars :p
Apu is cool on its own balanced most apu's can't take no more than 4 HL's 4 to 6 explosive earp hits or a full clip of libby and CS. As other people have stated its the PPU a good team of PPU + APU on teamspeak who know what they are doing can kill an entire clan !!! PPU + APU working as 1 and you have a 2 man hybrid anti buff parra the works
remove ppu and stealth spies will rule the world.
But what about TANKS?
Does a tank stand any chance against any APU or Sniper?
If so, how?
Cause Tanks dont got what spies do, range (melee tank) and tanks doesnt have what apus do, looots of damage (and range compared to a melee)...
Im playing a melee tank and so far i havent started to hunt pro city, but i mean, a spy, 1 hit in the leg and bam, im dead, a apu, a lightning, legs = busted, and im dead ;D
remove ppu and stealth spies will rule the world.
Not really, there are other ways aside from Truesight Sanctum that can show up a stealthed spy :lol:
Not really, there are other ways aside from Truesight Sanctum that can show up a stealthed spy :lol:
If you're not counting bugs or exploits, then yes he'S right Stealthers WOULD rule the world if PPUs get remove.
Mr Friendly
27-10-04, 20:30
further weaken the shelt, def, & heal casted on other chars, simple.
make it so a capped holy shelt on an apu is the same as the apu casting a regular shelt on himself. *bing* ppu problem fixed.
If you're not counting bugs or exploits, then yes he'S right Stealthers WOULD rule the world if PPUs get remove.
& what about the lil device we all know of called the tracking device thats in nearly every game dealing with stealth chars?.....
a simple rifle or pistol (no heavy, sry tanks buds :p) that hits a spy or neone its fired on, with a tracking device, has about the same frequency as the Silent Hunter.
sound good?
[...]& what about the lil device we all know of called the tracking device thats in nearly every game dealing with stealth chars?.....
a simple rifle or pistol (no heavy, sry tanks buds :p) that hits a spy or neone its fired on, with a tracking device, has about the same frequency as the Silent Hunter.
sound good?
Simply bring shelter out of spies reach and all is fine.
Mr Friendly
27-10-04, 23:13
nah, b4 i quit, i never met a single shelter spy that didnt drug for resists or weapons. its the same as any other class druggin durin pvp. just shelt spies seem to be sad drug addicts :eek: :D
but yea, i kinda dont see why spies have 20 PSI neway @_@
Jesterthegreat
27-10-04, 23:19
so, basicly, in this NC MMO environment, the psi modules are...balanced?
i don't want none of that "spec" stuff, or "get some skills with X item" shit, but instead, ideally, is monk weaponry/counter weaponry balanced in Neocron, with its netcode, player updates, health bounces, firearms dmg, firearms range etc etc
the argument that rifles are meant to be used at range only weigh about a 10th of its actual value, when u look at the perspective with the aforementioned APU range, player updates, local list, health bounce, HL delayed spam, no reticle, no weapon slowdown, monk mainstat spreadout, subskill planning etc.
what do u think
are psi modules balanced?
plz think about it before u answer
add LoS (Line of Sight) on all spells...
do something about PPU dependancy (no i dont know what)
other than that yes id say its fine
Ozambabbaz
28-10-04, 00:42
shelter out of reach of spies 8| good god, why not enforce 4 100+ tradeskills on every spy as well
about monkage, LoS would indeed be supa, why it isn't in already is beyond my mere mortal sanity
but APUs are still too good for their own good, even with no PPU around.
there's too many effects in place to say exactly what would balance the monks.
my favourite example is a pure capped APU on redflash with an HL. that's just wrong. with just lvl3 buffs, that's 140 Agl and 73 ath. without "only" 116 agl.
now with no slowdown, everybody else has slowdown, pistol users, whom people say have no slowdown, have to draw PC and TC also from dex. just wanting to use an XP reflex4 to bounce back some runspeed is gonna require an SA for the pure combat PA3 (another side-effect, monks get their mc5 chips/high end stuff faster than any conventional char, bar the tank)
the psi armor, well that's the best armor in the game, it covers everything, while the disadvantage of it is PRC/FOR, monks can easily spec resist force, seeing as modules weigh all but nothing.
then the HL. when u get hit by one on ur end, ur actually gonna get hit by 3-5, and there is nothing u can do about it, except ask for some cheese with that whine. and the bugger actually does locational dmage, the most damaging spell of them all does locational damage, that's too good a package in one weapon, there are no drawbacks at all. further more, it doesn't even require line of sight. wewt. the range of it is also very nice, it's like 2/3s of the entire clipping range.
i'd suggest to add reticle to monks. fully closed reticle while crouching = 80% chance of max damage, 20% chance of doing 70-90% adding spell fizzle of 10% on non fully closed reticle and random damage of 50-80% of max damage, incl LoS requirement, remove locational damage from beams, raygun effect on heals, S/Ds and DJs PPU idea (check brainport for that one).
am i totally off the rocker?
Mr Friendly
28-10-04, 02:45
about monkage, LoS would indeed be supa, why it isn't in already is beyond my mere mortal sanity
monks do not target in a line of sight vision, lockin on to ur body & sending a lightning bolt form the sky, will hit u even if u go invisible to the naked eye, but not to the psychic mind :p
& besides, makin it sumthin like that im about 95% sure kk wouldnt be able to implement that right :\ prolly screw it up bad
& besides, makin it sumthin like that im about 95% sure kk wouldnt be able to implement that right :\ prolly screw it up bad
HAHA, yea. They would most likely accidentally uber boost the apus and make a full reticule lock 200% dmg or something. Then leave it like that for about 10 patches....while people go nuts on the forums and every monk and his brother has an evil grin on their face.... :lol:
Mr Friendly
28-10-04, 06:33
more like then every sad tank on each server makes an apu monk just to be overpowered like the tanks did when melee became overpowered rofl
its sad how some ppl in this game dont even play a class they like, they play the one that's overpowered @_@
Mr Friendly
28-10-04, 06:37
Pardon me, since when?
Read above your post, they outline the "resists" part pretty well.
yes yes, the typical guy that says apus shouldnt be overpowered cuz of either their ubar resists or l337 armor... o_O :rolleyes:
allow me to remind u that an apu monk is the only char in the ENTIRE game that cannot buff or heal himself. <--thats a period. marking the end of that discussion.
But since we are talking about the spells it really doesn't matter if he can or can not buff himself, this considers hybrids aswell. <-- NOW THAT is a period. marking the end of that discussion.
yes yes, the typical guy that says apus shouldnt be overpowered cuz of either their ubar resists or l337 armor... o_O :rolleyes:
allow me to remind u that an apu monk is the only char in the ENTIRE game that cannot buff or heal himself. <--thats a period. marking the end of that discussion.
I was not saying they shouldn't be overpowered cause of their amour/resists, I was pointing out (in response) that it's possible for apus to get very good resists.
About the apus not having access to heal and such, it's very easy for an apu to spec some ppu, enough for a tl 3 heal up to shelt, then when they're with a ppu, throw on pa and get a psi 3, your as good as any other pure apu (with a slightly less pool, not that it matters much cause of the new glove).
I just lommed my pure apu to hybrid and I have to tell you, I didn't even notice difference, except that I'm now 200% more dangerous than earlier, can solo anything and that I can duo with another apu to kill more faster better.
Jesterthegreat
28-10-04, 12:21
I just lommed my pure apu to hybrid and I have to tell you, I didn't even notice difference, except that I'm now 200% more dangerous than earlier, can solo anything and that I can duo with another apu to kill more faster better.
yes indeed... its entirely possible to be efficiant (or overpowered if you listen to some people) with enough PPU to use low level spells (like heal...)
its sad how some ppl in this game dont even play a class they like, they play the one that's overpowered @_@
Then theres the people that have to play the overpowered characters as the characters they like playing can't stand up to the enemy (i.e. APU/PPU teams at an OP war atm are better than bringing tanks/spies as well).
Personally I think a good way of balancing them would be to mean part of their base CON is a negative value of POR to mean even with a good setup you can still kill them (even if it does mean only tanks/APUs can kill them).
Or put negative effects on buffs, like haz raises x-ray and por but lowers energy and for.
And maybe some for them psi, rifle, pistol etc. boosters too.
Alienfreak
28-10-04, 14:16
disadvantages are that you can't heal ( apu monk is only class that can't heal
range is idd quite poor
most apu's can't get enough speed on them cuz dex is a pain to level and constitution is needed for hp and resists.
1.ONOZ!!!
You really have to spend 5 of your points in APU in your PPU skill to be able to use the Heal ... ONOZ ... help poor APUs!!!
2. Im still waiting for the Sniper Pistol :rolleyes:
3. most apu's can't get enough speed on them cuz dex is a pain to level and constitution is needed for hp and resists.
1. Spend all your Points in Agility.
2. Get an Reflexbooster 1.
3. Get an Foot.
= 110 Agility without Drugs
4. Get an Leg
5. Skill some points on athletics
6. Get an Drug
= Fastest Fighting Class ... no Speed Malus for drawn weapon and insane damage.
healing light is VERY close to HL dmg
Who told you that? Very funny ... indeed.
Alienfreak
28-10-04, 14:16
Originally Posted by Mr Friendly
yes yes, the typical guy that says apus shouldnt be overpowered cuz of either their ubar resists or l337 armor...
allow me to remind u that an apu monk is the only char in the ENTIRE game that cannot buff or heal himself. <--thats a period. marking the end of that discussion.
Refer to point 1 of my former post.
But what about TANKS?
Does a tank stand any chance against any APU or Sniper?
If so, how?
Cause Tanks dont got what spies do, range (melee tank) and tanks doesnt have what apus do, looots of damage (and range compared to a melee)...
Im playing a melee tank and so far i havent started to hunt pro city, but i mean, a spy, 1 hit in the leg and bam, im dead, a apu, a lightning, legs = busted, and im dead ;D
Get some skills, then you can survive.. ;) Im APU and have met atleast a 15 good tanks, theres definatly more ;) you have a heal, you have speed use it.
Jesterthegreat
28-10-04, 14:36
Who told you that? Very funny ... indeed.
if we are taking into account other spells in this thread (APU's inability to heal) we have to take a PE's DB into account... a DB'd tank will take at least 100 damage from a Healing Light... im not sure about other classes as i have only fought against them as a tank (and seen many other tanks fight them)
Znufs post allmost makes me wish that you could specifically distribute your resist points to different parts of your body, like pump force and energy to legs so you won't lose them so fast.
Other thing is, I can fight spies with ranged combat with my tank, just pull your S.T.O.R.M. Laser from your qb and start punding the poor little guy :) You can deal enough damage to for him to take cover, in the mean time you have been munching some meds and can heal yourself.
if we are taking into account other spells in this thread (APU's inability to heal) we have to take a PE's DB into account... a DB'd tank will take at least 100 damage from a Healing Light... im not sure about other classes as i have only fought against them as a tank (and seen many other tanks fight them)
a db'ed tank gets 200 dmg from hl...
hl = holy lighting
hlg = healing light
Mr Friendly
28-10-04, 21:51
a db'ed tank gets 200 dmg from hl...
hl = holy lighting
hlg = healing light
a tank with shoit enr resists yea :lol: :rolleyes:
from a healing light i have idea what a tank takes seeing as how ive never been a spy class. but witha tank ive never seen more than a 150 or 160 pop off a clanm8s tank (who have good enr resists)
But since we are talking about the spells it really doesn't matter if he can or can not buff himself, this considers hybrids aswell. <-- NOW THAT is a period. marking the end of that discussion.
& since we're talkin about apus bein overpowered, resists take part in the discussion proving how the apu is NOT overpowered. <--period. marking the end of that discussion. dont mock me again son :rolleyes: :p :lol:
1.ONOZ!!!
You really have to spend 5 of your points in APU in your PPU skill to be able to use the Heal ... ONOZ ... help poor APUs!!!
this guy right here proves why a discussion on forums shouldnt be takin seriously unless shown proof.
as u can see this guy is either a poor soul only able to use 1/3 of his mind, or he's just never played an apu b4, ...or both :p
lets see, if an apu put 5 points in ppu he'd have arounnnnd..... -20 ppu, round there? :rolleyes: & thats with PA off
an apu can definently not afford ppu for a heal, if he did it would be with no psi attack chips & PA4, & hed prolly get just enough for the heal @_@
u can use heal without pa and get ur HL on like 620%
Mr Friendly
28-10-04, 22:59
u can use heal without pa and get ur HL on like 620%
ermmk, ull need about at least 170 apu to get that much % on the HL.
without usin a psi attack2 or 3 chip, all ur gettin is a +10 bonus to apu.
so plz, endulge me how its possible. use the skill system if ud like.
(ive tried to get an apu with heal many times with 600%+ on HL, not possible at all.
OH, & we aint talkin bout PA switchin btw.
______
& btw, i need a link to the skill system generator thing, for some reason since a reformat its been sayin im missin a .dll file somehow @_@
a db'ed tank gets 200 dmg from hl...
hl = holy lighting
hlg = healing light
Is that so.. even with random damage? I dont think so, you could score lucky and get a high.. or score shit and get a low ;)
Mr Friendly
28-10-04, 23:06
i have done some testin though on an HL with headshots.
with no DB, the apu wearing all hly spirit armor except a HVY fire belt, & PA3. has 55 in enr. highest dmg recorded was 155.
Okay, Mr. Friendly, since you wanted a setup with 170 apu and tl3 heal..
Psi Core, DS, Exp Psi Con 3, Psi Attack 3, APU PA3
total you can get
18 ppu
171 apu
84 mst
95 ppw
easilly tweakable for better stats on heal or holy light. Oh, and this is with PA on all the time. I've explained a setup similar to this before, so I don't want to go into all the fine details, but basically using APU PA and Psi attack 3 is more efficient for point gain if you want both apu and ppu, but more apu than ppu. It'd take a while to explain the math, but you can either trust me or figure it out for yourself.
Edit: If you're kryptonite, you should know that, right?
Mr Friendly
28-10-04, 23:47
lol, there's a thing called proof kissmyshin, screenshot of ur skillmanager for example, very simple.
& yea i know the math. slept 3/4 the year in trig my senior year actually, finished that class with an 88.
EDIT: actually h/o....been a while since ive tried that kinda setup, never used it cuz i never have believeed a basic heal & buffs with a HL not even capped aint worth it.
newayz, currently ive configured dis:
BASE - (**)=after imps + pa
ppu - 53 (18) +10, -25, -20
apu - 130 (171) +10, +16, +15
mst - 74 (84) +10
ppw - 61 (91) +10, +10, +15
usin, psi core, ds, psi attk3, exp psi contr3 & PA3 (tried to match ur numbers)
think these are right.....guess its been a while since ive tried that setup @_@ sry for the accussations. think i tried this one back when u first decided to LoM from apu to hybrid, didnt really like the basic stuff thing, gotta have my shelt :p
screenshots don't prove anything, you can just as easilly photoshop it as you can post it... but here since you don't believe anything anyone says that may or may not prove you wrong. Acting mature helps with people doing what you ask, as does being polite. (Btw, trig in senior year? Isn't that a junior class?)
Here's a copy-paste from the .txt output from smoker's skillmanager v2
PSI-Monk
INT:110 Base:100
HCK:0 Base:0
BRT:0 Base:0
PSU:217 Base:167
WEP:0 Base:0
CST:0 Base:0
RES:0 Base:0
IMP:0 Base:0
RCL:0 Base:0
DEX: 35 Base: 35
P-C:0 Base:0
R-C:0 Base:0
T-C:0 Base:0
VHC:0 Base:0
AGL:-20 Base:0
REP:0 Base:0
REC:0 Base:0
WPW:0 Base:0
STR:15 Base:20
M-C:0 Base:0
H-C:0 Base:0
TRA:0 Base:0
FOR:-15 Base:0
CON:45 Base:45
BodyHealth:122
Stamina:50
ATL:0 Base:0
HLT:0 Base:0
END:0 Base:0
FIR:0 Base:0
ENR:0 Base:0
XRR:0 Base:0
POR:0 Base:0
PSI:124 Base:100
PSI-Pool:312
PPU:20 Base:55
APU:171 Base:130
MST:84 Base:74
PPW:95 Base:60
PSR:0 Base:0
Implants:
PSI Core CPU
MC5 Dimension Splitter CPU
PSI Attack Chip 3
Experimental PSI Controler 3
--none--
--none--
--none--
Crahn Power Gauntlet
--none--
--none--
--none--
--none--
--none--
Armor:
Crahn Holy Spirit Helmet
Spirit Crahn PowerCloak APU
Heavy Fire Protection Belt
Crahn Holy Spirit Throusers
Crahn Holy Spirit Boots
Buffs:
--none--, --none--, --none--
--none-- selfcast, --none-- selfcast
Drugs:
--none--, --none--, --none--, --none--, --none--
Armor:
Piercing: 65 Force: 36 Fire: 109 Energy: 154 Xray: 25 Poison: 0
Protection:
Piercing: 43.33% Force: 24% Fire: 69.38% Energy: 73.31% Xray: 16.67% Poison: 0%
Remaining PvP DMG:
Piercing: 18.7% Force: 25.08% Fire: 10.11% Energy: 8.81% Xray: 27.5% Poison: 33%
Mr Friendly
29-10-04, 00:11
refer to my last post edited
& jtlyk, 2 ppl isnt everyone
k.
I've noticed slight differences with smoker's v2 and the new on posted on the forums by.. someone(sorry!) Smoker's v2 is correct I believe, because I've used it to successfully make setups down to the last point numerous times.
Example, the new skillmanager setup I made had 18 ppu, but smoker's v2 had 20 (4 point difference), and smoker's has always worked out exactly for me.
Mr Friendly
29-10-04, 00:20
could u send it to me (smoker's version) via AIM or yahoo or msn er summin? im actually tryin to find a download for it, ever since my reformat its been ssayin im missin a .dll file so guess i need to reinstall :\
You will need DOTNET Framework v1.1 in order to run the Program!
Grab it here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=262d25e3-f589-4842-8157-034d1e7cf3a3&DisplayLang=en
That's from the readme from smoker's v2
Mr Friendly
29-10-04, 00:31
heh, i kinda need the program itself, not the framework thing...
SigmaDraconis
29-10-04, 01:09
wow I don't really feel like going through this pile of crap and quoting all the half-baked replies and ideas in here, so I'll just list some random points...
1. Healing Light can fry most people almost as fast as a Holy Lightning if your aim is good and you hit with rapid succession. Range has nothing to do with damage output, only the fact that a drug free spy will die faster than an APU up-close therefore doing less DoT, heh.
2. An APU can get 170+APU and still cast basic heal with his PA on, but I highly doubt yur getting 600% damage on yur HL there, can't say for sure as thats not my setup, I'm getting something like 480% 103 RoF with 161 APU, 86 PPW, 225 PSU (all art HL), beyond that none of the setups you guys have listed have the MST to use HAB (sorry my favourite APU spell, and yes it is worth using even if u dont cap RoF, as i get 19/min even with my setup). Taking PA3 off i lose 39% damage (16 APU lost) so I don't see adding 10 APU giving you the extra 120% damage you need, even with the boost you get around 170 (if that still exists even)
3. A melee Tank who has BETTER overall defense/HP/runspeed and heals and basic buffs, out damages my HL with current setup.
4. HC Tanks can easily deal with Rifle PE's and APU's, and quite often spies. Melee tanks will get screwed by ranged fighters, but in most cases will take down a good APU unless just about everything in the scenerio is in the APU's favour.
5. erm... APU/PPU combos do not make tanks PE's and spies useless at OP fights. well PE's..mebe but thats a diff topic. you know that insane amount of dmg an APU can take with a PPU? a Tank can take PLENTY more with a PPU...and still dish out respectable damage, hell a melee tank could probably dish out just as much dmg as an APU, and theyre harder to hit, have slightly better resists, and HP.
note not all of this is directed at any one person specifically, and each point probably refering to a different comment all-together. I could probably add some more but I don't feel like diggin any further back.
Mr Friendly
29-10-04, 01:17
weeee, #2's at me @_@ :p
as u can see from my posts i redid it all on paper & saw it is possible.
& possibly it is able to get 600% on it seeing as how 170 seems to be the % boost spot for HL & having 96 ppw so....dun really know but its a good possibltity thats true
You can have 177 APU and still not reach 600% on a HL.
Mr Friendly
29-10-04, 01:38
You can have 177 APU and still not reach 600% on a HL.
with how much ppw though?
ppw above 90 plays a large role in the % on ur spells jtlyk
I get 470% on my HL on my hyb with 158 apu (pa2) and 72 ppw. 94 rof with 202 psi use (79 base int). I will have 163 apu when I cap psi tho.
with how much ppw though?
ppw above 90 plays a large role in the % on ur spells jtlyk
I was just pointing out that even with 177 APU you can still not cap the HL, if you have low PPW.
Mr Friendly
29-10-04, 01:45
I was just pointing out that even with 177 APU you can still not cap the HL, if you have low PPW.
yea but this is having 96 ppw (high), 171 apu, & still having about 60 in ppu for a heal & basic buffs....
most likely u could cap an HL with 175 apu & 100 ppw
yea but this is having 96 ppw (high), 171 apu, & still having about 60 in ppu for a heal & basic buffs....
most likely u could cap an HL with 175 apu & 100 ppw
With 174 APU, 87 MST and rest PPW you'll cap HL iirc.
Mr Friendly
29-10-04, 01:56
someone needs to update smoker's skillmanager with dat :D
so it shows the % & RoF ull get on a weapon with artifact stats
me thinks people need to start playing the game more and spend less time in skillmanager.. mmmkay?
Anyway, this thread has gotten horribly off topic.
Off topic is the way of the internet. :p
I use skillmanagers to distribute points, not much more, though I do like to have nice round numbers on a skillmanager setup. :)
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