View Full Version : Rifle Spy vs. H-C Tank
The Characters:
Rifle Spy - 79/63
Healing Light - TL 110
Heavy Tank 53/61
Special Forces Plasma Wave TL 110
Each soloed a:
DOY Defence Unit 90/90
Which resulted in:
Spy: Dexterity Experience = 150,000
Tank: Strength Experience = 200,000
So:
Both weapons were of equal tech level, both went up against the same mob. So the difference being the 79 combat rank on the Spy versus the 53 combat rank on the Tank. So are we clearly seeing the effects that combat rank has on experience gain? It's easy to see how it can affect money, since your money decreases as your rank gets higher and higher above the mob's rank. But shown here is experience gain.
I knew that combat rank affected experience, but damn. The Spy is still 11 levels below the mob; it's rank is not even green, it's still yellow. Assuming that both Spies and Tanks are set for the same mainskill experience gain (100), then it appears that the Tanks have an inherent advantage since their ranks are so heavily nerfed.
Does anyone have a Pistol Spy they can test this with? Like, use the TL 108 pistol and then use the TL 113 pistol and average the results together? I figure since the pistol spy usually has a rank in between that of a Rifle Spy and H-C Tank.
yeh everyone knows combat rank affects money/XP gained
Doesn't having a rank closer to the mobs rank supposed to give you more XP? :wtf:
It's not a causal result of the rank.
The XP mainskill points per mob kill are not directly 1:1 proportional across classes.
There are `balancing` modifiers applied.
In your example bear in mind that the spy is also getting something like 75% of the mainskill rate in INT as well, whereas the tank only gets points in his secondary skill if hit.
yeh everyone knows combat rank affects money/XP gained
Yes, I know that. That was obvious in day one of NC. I'm not debating whether or not combat rank affects experience. But what I (and who knows how many other people) thought was:
Doesn't having a rank closer to the mobs rank supposed to give you more XP? :wtf:
I had both of my characters using the same TL of weapon. Both were far enough under ranked for the mob to still be red (I know I said yellow in my original post, I meant to say it's not even that - it's still red). Money doesn't start to be affected until after you cross the mobs rank.
But what I'm saying is look at how big the difference is. It's huge. It seems like some sort of nerf to Rifle users because of how high their ranks get. The tank and the spy use the same TL weapon, the tank does more damage and kills the mob faster. But he gets 50,000 more experience because his rank is hideously underpowered compared to the Spy's rank.
It's not a causal result of the rank.
The XP mainskill points per mob kill are not directly 1:1 proportional across classes.
There are `balancing` modifiers applied.
In your example bear in mind that the spy is also getting something like 75% of the mainskill rate in INT as well, whereas the tank only gets points in his secondary skill if hit.
Eh, I guess it's just me then. I'll just be weird and keep thinking it's nuts. :(
(not that I'm complain per se, I finally found a quick way to solo level my tank in a decent amount of time/resources.)
no a higher rank will give you less exp.
the max XP cap is 10 lvls i think
so a lvl 10 and a lvl 30 of the same class/proffession kill a 50/50 both should get the XP cap from the 50/50
a lvl 45 of the same class attacks adn kills the same 50/50 will get less exp cause the 10 lvls is halved
but i think hes right tank just gains more cause he gets a bigger leveling bonus than the spies 75% xp gain in int...not cause of rank difference....unless 15 or 20 levels instead of 10 for capped XP
at least thats how ive always understood it
yeh everyone knows combat rank affects money/XP gainedOnly obliquely true.
If your rank qualifies you for money at all, then it will be the same per given mob, regardless of rank.
All that changes is the `cutoff` point at which lower ranked mobs don't give money any more.
i.e. I get 2563 cr (or whatever the exact number is) per Warbot wether I am rank 30/, 50/ or 70/. The only change would be if I reached a high enough rank to get the `pick on someone your own size` message and stopped getting cash at all.
As far as the comparable XP gain in a single class - that's more directly a function of the tech level of weapon used rather than rank, per se.
Combat rank is a combination of the effectiveness of the weapon and your combat related skillpoint distribution.
I get the same XP for a Warbot using the same weapon wether I have 100 RC or 180 RC. It just takes longer :)
If I change to a higher TL weapon then the XP rate rises.
So - the combat rank & XP rate *are* related, but only because they both share a common base calculation component.
One is not a direct result of the other.
You could test this empirically for concrete numbers if you like by finding combination of different weapons and skills levels that gives you the same combat rank.
i.e. TL 75 gun with 180 RC, then TL 100 gun with 100 RC.
(example numbers only, but you get the idea)
oh ok kurai is right i think and i am wrong
I thought i knew how it worked
i.e. I get 2563 cr (or whatever the exact number is) per Warbot wether I am rank 30/, 50/ or 70/. The only change would be if I reached a high enough rank to get the `pick on someone your own size` message and stopped getting cash at all.
2543nc for a Warbot, 2867nc for a Warbot Titan :) (Oh, and 3210nc for a 90/90 Doy Bot. Killed so many of all three little bastards that the money numbers are engraved on my brain).
I get the same 2543 for the warbot all the way up to 80/xx, with the Warbot being 80/80. I'm not sure about 81/xx, but at 82/xx I get 2340 from the 80/80 Warbot.
So it's not the same all the way to black, which is 26 ranks above (i.e. you stop gaining money when the mobs rank turns black, which happens at 26 ranks difference). It just decreases along the way. I'm sure you knew that though, just didn't sound apparent from your post. Ima picky little bugger :)
lol
Yeah - I got sidetracked a bit along the way when it comes to reaching/exceeding mob rank.
I'll let you run with the exact dropoff formula if you know it, becuase to be perfectly honest I've never really bothered looking at it in any detail.
Levelling is tedious enough as it is, so I tend to go for bigger rank mobs to at least make it as quick/efficient as possible :D
If your rank qualifies you for money at all, then it will be the same per given mob, regardless of rank.
All that changes is the `cutoff` point at which lower ranked mobs don't give money any more.
i.e. I get 2563 cr (or whatever the exact number is) per Warbot wether I am rank 30/, 50/ or 70/. The only change would be if I reached a high enough rank to get the `pick on someone your own size` message and stopped getting cash at all
how odd, my rifle spy (77/--) gets the same as you, but my monk (88/--) gets exacltly HALF (1282, rounded up) that.
i think im bugged, i'll kill one on my tank and report back.
edit - looking at above posts, i think the drop off in cash is exponetial. i'll go and check my monks cash... if i can GR anywhere... :rolleyes:
QuantumDelta
26-10-04, 20:32
I could have swore the amount of money from a kill was effected by rank (in terms of how much money per mob), not just the cut off Oo...
I'll need to double check.
--
The theory people are talking about when they say you can get more exp from mobs when you're higher level is;
Kill time vs Mob XP.
At Level 40 you may be able to get a LOT of XP from a single 100/100 mob.
But at level 60, you'll get 45% that XP (Fictional number).
However, at level 60, you will be able to kill 3x that many mobs in the time it took to kill one, in the past.
In your example bear in mind that the spy is also getting something like 75% of the mainskill rate in INT as well, whereas the tank only gets points in his secondary skill if hit.
Wrong. I have hard capped my tanks STR, yet I still level CON when I am leeching/gunning in a Rhino.
STR passively levels CON and vice-versa, at least that is what ive noticed
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 20:51
Whats the problem?
The spys combat rank is incredibly high.
Try being a droner with 91 to 93/ combat rank, and then tell em what XP you get.
However, youll actually find you still get an insane amount per DOY bot or lieutenant.
Around 300k a launch... 8| with TL 122(punisher)
Around 300k a launch... 8| with TL 122(punisher)
launch? a drone?
youre one of the lucky ones :p
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 20:55
launch? a drone?
youre one of the lucky ones :p
LOL talking before DOY...
always talking in the sense of pre-doy seen as DOY has effectivly mashed up everything that was once good and addictive.
yeah.. i remember trying to level my hyb back to capped...
... oddly enough, i did in DOY acting as a PPU :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
take that Dont Mess :rolleyes:
Clownst0pper
26-10-04, 20:59
take that Dont Mess :rolleyes:
Didnt think dilly was about any more 8| the lieing shite!
Wrong. I have hard capped my tanks STR, yet I still level CON when I am leeching/gunning in a Rhino.
I know vehicle XP gains are weird and have different effects for the different classes, but I must admit I don't know how the exact mechanics of how the system works, having never played around with driving/gunning for long.
What ratio of mainskill/secondary do you get as a Tankeh when using `ordinary` HC/MC weapons ? (i.e. How much CON per STR point without taking any health dmg)
Spy STR certainly raises `passively' when using rifles/pistols, but it's at a tiny fractional rate compared to DEX/INT.
My major blindspot when talking about all this stuff is that I have pretty much exclusively played Spies (in many and various professions and configurations) - so I know a spy's life inside out, and how other classes impinge on said spy, but most of what I know of life inside the other classes' skin is from an external perspective ;)
I could have swore the amount of money from a kill was effected by rank (in terms of how much money per mob), not just the cut off Oo...
I'll need to double check.
This part I can offer definitive and recent data for, at combat ranks less than or equal to the mob rank.
I started banging away at warbots from about rank 20/20 with my Terra nib.
It was consistently 2543nc as I levelled, right through to 49/51.
Then I got thoroughly fucked off with levelling and wimped out, transferring my capped Pluto main across. :D
It's still 2543nc per Wabbit, no matter what weapon (and concommitant rank) I use.
There is a dropoff once you *exceed* mob rank (as Sorin added for me earlier) but I'm hazy on the exact ratios as noted.
Didnt think dilly was about any more 8| the lieing shite!
yep, still annoying the shit out of us.
what was this thread about? oh yeah, combat ranks vs XP
I think taking more mobs down is better than taking fewer down with a lower TL weapon. thats why hybrids had the the hardest job, high rank and (thanks to the TL/req changes) low TL spells
I hated being a PPU bitch, but at least I recapped (woohoo 5 more PSW :rolleyes:)
Wrong. I have hard capped my tanks STR, yet I still level CON when I am leeching/gunning in a Rhino.
In teams yes but they are talking about solo'ing.
In teams yes but they are talking about solo'ing.
Alright. Put my tank as the gunner, I level CON. Put my tank in the Ceres dungeons behind a closed door, I level CON. Both times I am unteamed, solo and NOT exploiting anything (before anyone says anything bout the Ceres place, every once in a while the bastardages open the doors and shoot meh, which results in very little CON gain in comparison to me shooting at them).
So basically, I was talking about solo'ing aswell, ok?
So the spy got less XP?
Am i missing something? :S
so.....
QuantumDelta
27-10-04, 01:27
This part I can offer definitive and recent data for, at combat ranks less than or equal to the mob rank.
I started banging away at warbots from about rank 20/20 with my Terra nib.
It was consistently 2543nc as I levelled, right through to 49/51.
Then I got thoroughly fucked off with levelling and wimped out, transferring my capped Pluto main across. :D
It's still 2543nc per Wabbit, no matter what weapon (and concommitant rank) I use.
There is a dropoff once you *exceed* mob rank (as Sorin added for me earlier) but I'm hazy on the exact ratios as noted.
Noted for observation when I next level on chars... doesn't sound unreasonable, especially since i haven't leveled for a long long time.
All I remember is when my PE was originally leveling, Aggy Cap'n value going down as I leveled..
After my PE Capped, although my PE was always broke (PPU too I guess) -- I never really had money problems, so never really noted Money from mobs, patch change?
-
Anyways, somethin I'll keep an eye out for, cheers.
Its a subject you could aargue about for hours and never come to a compromise.
A APU can get more barreling a room of sheltered LTs than spy can... yet it gains INT very slow. Sofair at the end of the day.
Hacknet.
60/60 mobs
1466 or something like that, while I was below them.
I reached 63/54 and wooo, money went down to 1300something or so.
Then I said "fuck you hacknet" and used 30 lom pills.
lol
i remember on NC1 my not yet capped hybrid APU with kami had an combat rating of 115...had to tone it down a bit since i got a
"pick on someone your own size" after i killed a 90/90 terror raptor....zero xp....zero cash...
I think the Rifel users are better in gettint INT exp than the pisol users who gets more DEX. You have to look at the other mainskill too. My tank made the CON 99 sittin in a RHINO and shooting WB's 8| ...
So the spy got less XP?
Am i missing something? :S
so.....
They probably got the same total experience, just divided differently.
I think I explained my thoughts on how experience works a while ago, but it's basically this:
Experience get's calculated for every hit you make. This is probably a simple result of damage done and the rank of the enemy you just hit. It also seems to be the case that Weapon TL plays a small part in this as well, as I've noticed that I get more experience by killing the same mob when using a higher TL weapon.
Then experience get's divided over the used stats (Not entirely true, construction also levels strength, but it's pretty close to how it works) with more experience being given if that stat was used more for determining how well the weapon works. In the case of a cannon, lots of strength experience and a bit of intelligence. In the case of a rifle, high dexterity, average intelligence and a bit of strength.
This then get's changed by your class's experience modifier, this differs on a stat-per-stat basis. Approximatations of the numbers (Which are most likely wrong) can be viewed on http://neocron.ems.ru .
A practical example to explain it some more (Uses imaginary numbers in this case, can't be bothered to do a full check-up right now):
Say your rifle spy shoots a warbot.
He does 200 damage.
This get's calculated to give 10000 experience points.
2000 experience goes to intelligence. (Weapon Lore)
6000 experience goes to dexterity. (Rifle Combat, which is the largest effect on rifles)
2000 experience goes to strength. (Erm, don't ask my why, it just does)
Now for intelligence and dexterity, the class modifier for a spy is 100%, so you get the full experience.
Strength, however, get's a modifier applied to it of 40%, thus giving 400 experience to strength.
Now, let's take the same warbot with a H-C tank.
He does 200 damage too.
This also gives 10000 experience points.
7000 experience goes to strength. (Heavy Combat, largest effect on cannons)
2000 experience goes to dexterity. (It just does, don't ask me why)
1000 experience goes to intelligence. (Weapon lore, fairly small effect for cannons)
Strength remains as full experience (It's got a 100% modifier for tanks)
Dexterity get's lowered to 1400 (70%)
Intelligence get's lowered 100 (10%)
In this case, the spy is actually getting more experience in total, but the tank get's more experience in his mainskill, thus making it seems like he get's more experience.
EDIT: This is all untested theory.
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Hmm, posting all that feels so wrong. Someone say something I can make some kind of silly, not really funny reply to. :p
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