View Full Version : [MERGED] MJS statement in the german forum (translated to english)
During my quick wander to German Comm talk i stumbeled onto this, Somthing which seems important posted by MJS in the german comm talk about lag and stuff (http://neocron.jafc.de/showpost.php?p=1662168&postcount=30)
/Nid's edit - link modified to point to the translated version on page 3 of this thread.
they made a HUGE op fight at mars....guess what..... the zone was down, and the germans(how they are, specially one clan :rolleyes: ) started flamethreads like, whine oh whine we cant make op fights with 80 peoples :p :D O_o :eek: :)
thanks for explaining :) but it would have been nice for us to know about it, i mean im sure terra will like wanna have big fights :p
First big Fight NC against Doy starts 3 days ago at Mercury ... u know Mercury hasnt that much player, so there was not a big problem and all had a lot of fun.
The first BIG Fight NC vs Doy starts last evening at Mars ... and it was the hell ... most people had a lot of synk and fatals, we saw a lot of pes .. we lost connection to the world server .. a lot of people died more than 1 time in the damn synks ...
For example .. Doy Fighter are waiting at jeriko ... waiting for the NC enemies... some of our Spys report in ally chat that first enemies are entering the zone now ... and what did we hear at TeamSpeak ? "ahhh fuck, synk !!" .. "yeah me too, dammn, relog" "Arrg holy shit i got fatal" .. "shit i am stuck in the synk, cant login" "ahhh i cant see the enemie, but got synk" .... most of the compleate clan got synks if the enemies joint the zone .. and that not only one time cause the fights are running some hours in different sectors ..
Today MJS posted that nc is made to manage the players in more of the 300 ingame maps, but not 20 - 30% from the payers in one zone ... the game/servers are unable to manage that.
So his suggestion ist to set a PLAYERLIMIT of 80 per ZONE ! ... German people think taht that cant be a suggestion .... how can we do Fights city vs city if we can only bring 1 mate per clan to the fight ? It cant be true .. it can only be a bad bad joke ...
Sorry for my bad english, tryed my best ..
Rieke
get a new server obviously the ZX spectrum's they are using as servers cant hack the pace these days and also to be honest the coding sucks if they cant remove fatal runtime error which has been in the game since NC 1. People that pay and play this game shouldnt have to stand for such bullshit, however i feel that such problems wont ever be fixed e.g FRE
As we aaaall know, NC run on a cluster, but 1 zone = 1 server, MJS says, thats the minimum they could do, u cant split 1 zone in 2 or 3 servers, that will not work. So his suggestion is to fight in more then one Zone, but we fear the "cheater" (label it at your own ;) ), who simply can load a zone with 60 and more ppl, when the others came in then, they are really dead, or Godlike ( 60proNC vs 20proDay *Hauvabungaaaa!* )
That is the main discussion out there, the one flames, other try to find a "better" way and MJS haven't post for while, I think some ppl Flamed too much ;)
Sorry 4 that baaaad english too, but hope u know whats going on @ the crazy germans Corner ^^
One good point of distributed arrays of crappy units.
It's cheap.
One bad point of distributed arrays of cheap units.
Individual units are crappy.
One has to choose a balance point between all the various pros and cons of an architecture - exactly where this point lies is influenced largely by budget.
That a bog standard cheapo 1U rack box struggles with the load of 80+ players should hardly come as a surprise - compare it to the data, processing and comms requirements for an FPS game server with similar simultaneous player numbers (also consider that a traditional FPS server process would have a lot less to deal with since NC has lots of `rpg` style serverside calcs going on too.)
One good point of distributed arrays of crappy units.
It's cheap.
One bad point of distributed arrays of cheap units.
Individual units are crappy.
One has to choose a balance point between all the various pros and cons of an architecture - exactly where this point lies is influenced largely by budget.
That a bog standard cheapo 1U rack box struggles with the load of 80+ players should hardly come as a surprise - compare it to the data, processing and comms requirements for an FPS game server with similar simultaneous player numbers (also consider that a traditional FPS server process would have a lot less to deal with since NC has lots of `rpg` style serverside calcs going on too.)
damn it kurai quit stickin up for them !! we want these problems removed!!!
damn it kurai quit stickin up for them !! we want these problems removed!!!So get them lots of money.
That's the only way to `fix` this.
I would certainly love to see half the entire world population slogging it out in a mass battle - but I am realistic. It's just not going to happen (unless KK/10Tacel get bought by an insane multi-millionaire who has an obsession with the game and doesn't care about return on investment ;) )
So get them lots of money.
That's the only way to `fix` this.
KK must rake in lots of cash, I mean for one look at the price of the game then take into account of all the people that have a account for multiple accounts. Thats alot of money right there but if they wanna expand on there cash maybe they should make some crazy promotions for the thing. I mean i must agree its by far the best game i have played but there are still problems within the game that make it not one of the best games.
hmm well we had a big ass op fight at macpherson the other day and only problem i had was my FPS :p lag was not an issue
make lots of cash? . ..maybe lots of cash to you but I can't believe they have multitudes of cash income coming from a mmorpg that's been in a semi comotose state for a long while now. We can say so many maybe type comments like .. maybe the server numbers will go up once the box comes out .. maybe it'll go up when it's in retail stores on the shelves everywhere it can get. Maybe if they got rid of c2p.
I'll understand what kurai said .. and it was a business decsion that was made a long time ago. I'd hardly think they could change it easily. If they did we most likely wouldn't see it till the year 2006 if even then when the next supposed newgame/expansion comes out with an outdated engine that would of been good 2 years ago from now but by then it'll be 4 years too late.
Oh well we can hope :)
Momo Katzius
25-10-04, 13:47
many people of the german comm. are really pissed off. Why? NC2 won't handle big fights, never.
That's the clue of MJS's statement. If the community will play well distributed, there won't be a problem. But if you want to, you can crash the server every time again.
many people of the german comm. are really pissed off. Why? NC2 won't handle big fights, never.
That's the clue of MJS's statement. If the community will play well distributed, there won't be a problem. But if you want to, you can crash the server every time again.
haha . .well distributed. there are a crapload of players who will just go to the side with bigger numbers and those who will just group with the more skill players. When that happens the sides become uneven till the clan/clan leaders decide it's boring cause everyone is on our side. Then they move and eventually others go ..well we'll move also till once again . .lopsided.
I think one way to make people divide up better is to put some sort of powers setting.
Like for instance if more people are on the DOY side then the other side gets more XP for leveling and vice vetsa.
Or maybe loot drops better for t he other side. Prices are reduced slighting in stores.
though I'm sure alot of people might complain about things put in like that ;)
I think one way to make people divide up better is to put some sort of powers setting.
Like for instance if more people are on the DOY side then the other side gets more XP for leveling and vice vetsa.
Or maybe loot drops better for t he other side. Prices are reduced slighting in stores.
That would be nice, but you would have to make everyone have all their alts in the same empire so they won't just have a look at the stats for the day and hunt with the char getting most money at the time.
KK must rake in lots of cash...You and I must have very different interpretations of the word `lots`. :p
Seriously - think about the numbers.
KK need to recoup - what ... 4, 5 years of development costs, 2 or 3 of that without any incoming revenue, all the business process capital outlay and borrowing, all the game service infrastructure setup, then the operating and running costs, then they have to fund a relaunch ... etc etc etc. The list is endless.
All this from a revenue stream from numbers of inexpensive subscriptions that were never huge and had some serious downturns.
That KK have survived *at all* is something of a miracle, to be prefectly frank.
I may be critical of some of their decisions and processes at times, but they must be doing a good many things right because they are still here.
I'm only harsh because I *care* - there's nothing else like Neocron around, and there's been no other game that has held my attention for so long. :D
That would be nice, but you would have to make everyone have all their alts in the same empire so they won't just have a look at the stats for the day and hunt with the char getting most money at the time.
yea that would need to happen like that but then again people can just switch sides .. so there alts can end up on t he other side eventually so I guess that wouldn't work.
[TgR]KILLER
25-10-04, 14:17
want my opinion.. trow down the old nc1 servers and reuse them for backup or something :p
i was at a big fight on terra a few days ago.. FF DarK and me and a few others vs a assload of city scum. must have been around 50 guys there max. dint get any screenshots but still.. any bigger then that fight would get to big i think.
Limit of 80 players per zone cant be a suggestion.
Think about it ... its 40 per side ... so its 6(?) per faktion .. so 1 player from 2-3 clans are able to join this zone ... thats the big city vs city fight then ?
What about the RLP cave ? If there is a team leveling and the CRP is under attack, the team cant leave the cave cause of to muh people in the zone ?
I can her the APu who crys "who the fuck is our ppu ???" .. and i hear the answer from the ppu "sorry, cant join the zone ...its full"
Why we got the ally-chat ? Whats with cm ? If 40 NC and 38 CM runner in the zone, only 2 DOY runner can enter the zone ? ... it cant be a suggestion .. its holy crap.
Sorry for my bad english ...
Rieke
Today MJS posted that nc is made to manage the players in more of the 300 ingame maps, but not 20 - 30% from the payers in one zone ... the game/servers are unable to manage that.
So his suggestion ist to set a PLAYERLIMIT of 80 per ZONE ! ... German people think taht that cant be a suggestion .... how can we do Fights city vs city if we can only bring 1 mate per clan to the fight ? It cant be true .. it can only be a bad bad joke ...
Sorry for my bad english, tryed my best ..
Rieke
Very well thought out ... get a clan of 60 guys and take ops.... then you can expect a max of 20 guys to enter and thats a 3 to 1 ratio... I wonder who will own the ops after this ....
The first BIG Fight NC vs Doy was 3 days after retail started on terra...
thats all i wanted to say >.<
was 3 days after retail started on terra...
thats all i wanted to say >.<
Can't exactly remember his post and cba, but maybe he meant on his server?
Dunno, just a theory. :confused:
MindFeeder
25-10-04, 19:15
Can't exactly remember his post and cba, but maybe he meant on his server?
Dunno, just a theory. :confused:
Yea he ment his server, E Cryton just trys to show us thas his server and his penis are way bigger than ours :P
First off.Most clans do not have 60 ppl in it.But lots of alts :)
And if ANYONE knows a game based something like this that can handle more tahn 80 on same place I would kie to know.And those who say SWG that is owned by a huge company can kiss my a.. That game let so laggy already with 20-30 around that even a hardcore comp got trouble.Maybe not fre's and stuff but I can have fre as good as I lag so I cannot aim or anything
Hmm...well all I have to say about it is that it seems to be a small problem compared to some others. The German community is upset because of FREs and other problems when having a battle with more than 80 people in a zone or whatnot so that game starts having issues... I wish Terra functioned well enough half the time to accomodate a battle like that but we are too busy trying to recover from rollbacks and other server issues that seem plague Terra. I wished ours worked that well.
Underground
25-10-04, 19:59
So get them lots of money.
That's the only way to `fix` this.
I would certainly love to see half the entire world population slogging it out in a mass battle - but I am realistic. It's just not going to happen (unless KK/10Tacel get bought by an insane multi-millionaire who has an obsession with the game and doesn't care about return on investment ;) )
Neocronski ? :p
I remember in 10six there was a limit of 15 players to a zone. And 10six was run by Sega.
Oh yeah, and 10six was just one big exploit. :D
Underground
25-10-04, 20:06
I remember in 10six there was a limit of 15 players to a zone. And 10six was run by Sega.
Who basically went verge bankrupt due to mass advertising and investment in shite consoles and games for 10 years no ?
Yea he ment his server, E Cryton just trys to show us thas his server and his penis are way bigger than ours :P
"the first big nc vs doy op fight was on mars"
...
and yea, my penis is bigger as darkfears one >.<
Hi there!
Since I'm bored and you guys seem to be interested in this, I'll quickly translate the post (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=117048) from Martin J. Schwiezer over at the german community forum for you [Notes are added by me, where it seemed appropriate to add in some further comments]. :)
Statement about the lag/sync problems during the DoY vs NC battles on Mars
This is a short statement about the lag and sync problems during huge city vs city battles: As has been determined by now, huge numbers of fighting (!) players in a single zone lead to lag and sync problems. These problems are based on the fact, that the whole server cluster is designed in a way, that the servers divide the various sectors of the game map among each other. A single sector can, technically [Note: This obviously means under the current system], not be "clustered". In other words, from the whole amount of servers only a single, wretched machine gets all the work load of the sector in question, while the other servers sit there twiddling thumbs, metaphorically speaking. This happens especially when like 20-30% of the whole players online are crowded in a single zone.
In principle, this would be easy to counteract, if the player limit in a single zone is reduced from 255 to about 80. The participants of such battles would then have to distribute themselves on a number of sectors and thus the server cluster could "divide" the work load among different machines.
As has been said, the systems running Neocron are designed in a way, that the players are distributed somewhat among the 300 or so maps. If, however, 20-30% of the players are cavorting in only one of those 300 maps, our system is led ad absurdum.
[Note: This post by MJS was a reply to another pretty long thread about the topic. In a few posts there, it has been said, that a number of online games can manage far higher numbers than what Neocron seems to be capable of, without any problems. The following is meant to be directed at those posts.]
By the way, the comparison with pure online shooter games isn't exactly fair, since during battles in Neocron there are A LOT more operations to be executed on the server, as compared with online shooters. This is because of the variety of weapons, weapon power and other factors, which have to be considered (skills, boosters, etc) during the calculations. All of those are running on the server. The effort for the server is higher by a factor of 10 here, as compared with a regular online shooter game, that should be clear.
A limit of about 80 players per zone could easily resolve those issues, as has been said. Instead of an error, an appropriate message would then be displayed and the battle would have to be expanded to the neighbouring sectors as well. What do you think about this solution?
[Note: The german community has already indicated several problems arising from such a limit, like the possibility of zone blocking with a number of players or putting a large number of defenders into an outpost to limit the attacking forces in number, or that some players could then be trapped inside a cave, while a battle rages outside.]
Kitana
Dribble Joy
25-10-04, 21:15
Limiting the zone limit to 80 would do little/nothing. If it struggles at 60-80 then an 80 limit is daft. A limit lower than this would also suck badly for obvious reasons.
The only real solution is better servers and/or a server code rewrite to spread the load over all the machines in any given cluster.
Martin J. Schwiezer
25-10-04, 21:19
@Kitana: Thanks a lot for the translation.
Limiting the zone limit to 80 would do little/nothing. If it struggles at 60-80 then an 80 limit is daft.There don't seem to be any problems with around 80 players in one zone. Please note that there is a huge difference between players near you and players within one and the same sector.
Dribble Joy
25-10-04, 21:23
Spangly.
Are there any plans to improve the way the clusters handle the activity from these large accumulations of people in single zones? I still think having one machine do all the grunt work seems a bit daft when you have the rest of the cluster doing little.
Then again I am not a server expert.
Thanks a lot for the translation.
You're welcome. :)
Kitana
Dribble Joy
25-10-04, 21:36
[ edited ]
Wtf is with people?
How do you manage to use the word mock in the context that you do?
This bastardisation of this word is like the new NC forum fasion.
Wtf do you mean?
Who are you reffering to anyway?
Me?
MJS?
KK?
ARG!!!!!
mock? wtf?.....
Spangly.
Are there any plans to improve the way the clusters handle the activity from these large accumulations of people in single zones? I still think having one machine do all the grunt work seems a bit daft when you have the rest of the cluster doing little.
Then again I am not a server expert.
There are program APIs available to facilitate "clustering of zones" but unfortunately for languages such as C/C++ they're all quite low level and simply tacking it onto the end of an existing server program wouldn't do much good. The entire server program would have to be re-written with distributed computation in mind (which is pretty difficult in a program of Neocrons scale) _and_ a load balancing scheduler would still be needed to control which hosts a zone would be using.
Simply put it's a _lot_ of work since there is no off-the-shelf solution.
Don't worry DJ, it's just the fact that he doesn't have anything constructive to say so he tries to insult you.
Well the gfxengine just isn't very userfriendly. It might have been "the easier way" to get it done, but it sure bugs the user. Like with highend systems the lag is sometimes awful.
What kind of system specs should we have to run the game smoothly?
p4 @ 4000+ghz, overclocked with LN2 or something, 3G ram, and GF6800U overclocked with LN2?
Or how über should the servers be to be able to handle 80+ chars in close quarters.
shodanjr_gr
25-10-04, 21:55
You "could" upgrade the servers instead...how do you plan on supporting large customer bases if you can not support large battles...you always have to catter for the worst case scenario...
[ edited ]
[ edited ]
Anyway - There could be a way round - I'm sure the boffinses at KKHQ have been batting ideas about - but there's a wee thingy called load distribution.
Self explanatory.
Dunno if it would work in NC though - because of all the resists and crap for each player being handled by two machines sending data to each other before it goes out. Not to mention all the calculations chit chat and whatnot.
I don't think it has anything to do with code - I think it's the dynamic. In my opinion - it's an inherrent problem with the uniqeness of neocron. I dunno if processes that neocron uses are really supposed to be used in tandem with each other to the extent that neocron uses them.
Would explain a lot tho.
Wtf is with people?
How do you manage to use the word mock in the context that you do?
This bastardisation of this word is like the new NC forum fasion.
Wtf do you mean?
Who are you reffering to anyway?
Me?
MJS?
KK?
ARG!!!!!
mock? wtf?.....
ROOFFL
I wasn't reffering to you anyway... made me laugh though lol had to read it on coms.
I hope Spermy's post gets edited for flaming, i feel greatly offended :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
[ edited - never invite edits. They add up. ]
Martin J. Schwiezer
25-10-04, 22:37
I don't think it has anything to do with code - I think it's the dynamic. In my opinion - it's an inherrent problem with the uniqeness of neocron. I dunno if processes that neocron uses are really supposed to be used in tandem with each other to the extent that neocron uses them.EXACTLY! And that's also the reason why limiting the number of players per zone is not just the simpliest, but also pretty much THE ONLY solution to this "problem".
EDIT:No - Ignore me - Hideously expensive solution....:EDIT
say you do limit it to 80...what would happen when the 81st person tried to enter the zone
a zone like CRP which is used quite frequently for lvling we'll say at any given time theres 20 ppl leveling in the zone somewhere.
now by bringing 40 ppl for your side that would automatically limit the max ppl able to come defend as 20 leaving 2V1 odds dictated by the server)
/edit - threads merged instead. Apologies for the inconvenience.
N
EXACTLY! And that's also the reason why limiting the number of players per zone is not just the simpliest, but also pretty much THE ONLY solution to this "problem".
It's hard to decide what to make of this. If limiting the number of players in a zone to (for example) 80 is the only way to fix the problem, then any claim to 'massively multiplayer' becomes even more tenous than it was with populations in the low hundreds.
If that really is the only way of fixing the current system then I'd suggest taking the system, throwing it in the bin, and coming up with something that meets the design goals; rather than adapting the design goals to fit in with bad design.
80 players is more than a zone would usually see, even in a big op war. But as the whole design of NC2 encourages large op wars, it was inevitable that they would get larger and larger as time went on. It worries me that settling on a Red v Blue game style didn't immediately trigger a review of the server architecture and just as immediately highlight this problem.
If problems that large and obvious can't be foreseen what hope is there for NC2? Is it just going to be a case of each patch fixing the problems not foreseen in the previous patch? That's certainly what we've had so far.
Why didn't you just close the first one... Now the whole statement is hidden somewhere in the middle. ;)
Kitana
It's hard to decide what to make of this. If limiting the number of players in a zone to (for example) 80 is the only way to fix the problem, then any claim to 'massively multiplayer' becomes even more tenous than it was with populations in the low hundreds.
If that really is the only way of fixing the current system then I'd suggest taking the system, throwing it in the bin, and coming up with something that meets the design goals; rather than adapting the design goals to fit in with bad design.
80 players is more than a zone would usually see, even in a big op war. But as the whole design of NC2 encourages large op wars, it was inevitable that they would get larger and larger as time went on. It worries me that settling on a Red v Blue game style didn't immediately trigger a review of the server architecture and just as immediately highlight this problem.
If problems that large and obvious can't be foreseen what hope is there for NC2? Is it just going to be a case of each patch fixing the problems not foreseen in the previous patch? That's certainly what we've had so far.
i agree ...since NC is really aiming for Red Vs. Blue in the scope of all things zones should be able to handle at least 120
120 would be more than enough(theyre just now getting FPS online servers up to thaT CAPACITY)
as far as othe MMO's that can hold more ppl in a zone .....well pretty much anyof the major ones can COH EQ DAOC Planetside SWG ...WOW.....
wont kill me if they do limit it to 80.....wouldnt like it though
Why didn't you just close the first one... Now the whole statement is hidden somewhere in the middle. ;)
Kitana
To be fair they do naturally follow. By rights you should have posted on the existing thread to start with, and I did retain your thread title. ;)
N
Hey, I just followed the big boss' example to open a new thread, so everyone can see the statement in the root. Blame him! :angel:
Kitana
i agree ...since NC is really aiming for Red Vs. Blue in the scope of all things zones should be able to handle at least 120
Not sure I agree, sorry :) They should either be able to handle what the gameplay encourages - which could be anything up to 100% of the server in one zone - or the gameplay should be adjusted to encourage usage that the servers can handle. An arbitrary cap on the player numbers is a nonsense.
Can you imagine what would happen if one City Alliance got 60 or so people together and went OP warring? You literally couldn't stop them as at best it would be 60v20. If the servers can't be adjusted to distribute load then the game has to be adjusted to distribute players.
Underground
25-10-04, 23:41
Can I just say one thing.
You guys seriously want 60 a side OP fights ? 120 people within the confines of a OP and the surrounding area ?
Your all crazy tbh, sorry.
I dont know what kinda PCs you guys have, but to be able to get more then 1 frame a day in one of those OP fights, you better smash your PC before it developes some AI that takes over the world.
30 a side OP fights, 60 people fighting, your talking <10 FPS on the majority of systems, alot of them <5 FPS, I would rather play pong tbh then that, theres no skill in that kinda play, its all about who 'manages' to fluke the most hits in such atrocious FPS with FPS spikes when a fucktruck load of monks all casts their spells at once lol, which side has the most PPUs, or who manages to luckily get away and not fatal etc.
I personally prefer the 15-20 a side OP fights tbh, zero lag, reasonable FPS, you can actually fight properly, and can make a effect yourself to the fight, rather then being one of the masses that has more PPUs then you etc...
Not sure I agree, sorry :) They should either be able to handle what the gameplay encourages - which could be anything up to 100% of the server in one zone - or the gameplay should be adjusted to encourage usage that the servers can handle. An arbitrary cap on the player numbers is a nonsense.
Can you imagine what would happen if one City Alliance got 60 or so people together and went OP warring? You literally couldn't stop them as at best it would be 60v20. If the servers can't be adjusted to distribute load then the game has to be adjusted to distribute players.
yeh i would like it to not have a limit either....but im thinking in terms of realistic expectations, not never never land
80 is too small i think
You guys seriously want 60 a side OP fights ? 120 people within the confines of a OP and the surrounding area ?
Only if the game can handle it. If it can't why does the game encourage it?
simple sollution : break this stupid doy vs neocron alliances back.
That way it won't be red vs blue and players spreaded among many factions with complicated relations will have much harder time bringing 2 huge armies.
Worked well in NC1.
I think what Spermy alluded to to the agreement of MJS is that Neocron does several things that other MMORPGs have chosen one or 2 of, plus some things that no other game does. Primarily, we have real time combat (resource intensive) and stat based combat (also resource intensive). Those 2 alone make Neocron more server resource hungry than any other game out there.
Underground
25-10-04, 23:53
Only if the game can handle it. If it can't why does the game encourage it?
Thats what im saying, people want it, but the game imo cant properly support 40 a side, it can barely, and i mean barely support 30 a side, it runs, but it runs like shit, and chumble you know that, if i can stand at jeriko with ~20 of my clan around me, and then see unnamed PEs drop from the sky just outside the OP, that shows just how outta whack those numbers are... Just being honest, thats all, not deliberately trollin or whatever ill likely get slapped for, just stating my opinion, and honestly, the game should still be in beta, for a long while.
God bless you KK for keeping a promise, and releasing the game on the date you said you would, or well, within a month of it :p, however that was the one single promise that you should have broken, and nobody that rightfully wants the best for neocron would have got pissed off at, the major features that are new with DoY, are well, still in development a month after release O_o, theres still existing bugs, hell whole classes are bugged when you look at PPU and Drones, and yes, PPUs are bugged in the sense that they are imbalanced to fuckery and back and completely wank over any balance in pvp with their S/D/H/etc...
There should have been more done, more completed, more included and above all more stability client side and server side in the NC2 Retail release client. :(
Can I just say one thing.
You guys seriously want 60 a side OP fights ? 120 people within the confines of a OP and the surrounding area ?
_o/ wants to have REALLY big fights :)
Imagine like huge showdown where all procity and all anticity peeps confront each others... oooooo mama.. city vs city.. *DROOOOLS*
Like 20 vs 20 is kewl, but i'd really like to see 60 vs 60 fights.. (if it would be possible due to the engine and zonelimits)
But there hasn't been answer.. if there is like zone lock, when theres 80 peeps.. what happens to that 81th person who enters the zone?
Edit: cookie time.. 700 meaningless spam posts ^^
Martin J. Schwiezer
26-10-04, 00:09
I think what Spermy alluded to to the agreement of MJS is that Neocron does several things that other MMORPGs have chosen one or 2 of, plus some things that no other game does. Primarily, we have real time combat (resource intensive) and stat based combat (also resource intensive). Those 2 alone make Neocron more server resource hungry than any other game out there.That's the exact point. To make it clear: We could just throw away the whole thing about items, mods, skills, resists, armors, ammos, implants, boosters, comm channels, xp gain etc. etc. and then we could go for around 200 ppl in one zone.
Or we could leave in all of the above and switch the combat to point and click and then we could handle 300 players per zone.
Or we could leave in both and ask NC players to not focus the whole conflict between NC and DoY on one zone.
It's your choice...! ;)
Neocron is a unique concept. And this concept has natural limits. They will break away as hardware gets faster and faster and the netcode gets more optimized. But this is an evolution. It doesn't happen within a week or a month.
This unique concept is also the reason for the fact that there is no other game like NC. Believe it or not, but the technology behind NC is cutting edge. It faces and partially solves problems none of the big players like EA, MS or SONY dared to touch. We did.
We did, because we believe in the uniqueness of the concept behind NC.
...and so do you. ;)
One of the uniqueness was many factions fighting each other, keeping players in tactical squads rather then realm's armies.
All those small hostilities, NAPs signed and always broken.
Why abandoned that?
Underground
26-10-04, 00:19
One of the uniqueness was many factions fighting each other, keeping players in tactical squads rather then realm's armies.
All those small hostilities, NAPs signed and always broken.
Why abandoned that?
because a few favoured people complained that it was komplikatid
and the netcode gets more optimized. But this is an evolution. It doesn't happen within a week or a month.
Sooo.. ur saying that there might be small chance of getting the netcode developed to the point where there will be no I.E. "melee bug" (character/mob placement)? And if it's under developement, then is it more like x years, or x2 years? :)
I might sound a bit pessimistic with this, but i'm not throwing my hope away for the sake of my melee tank really hitting the target where he is on my screen :)
We could just throw away the whole thing about items, mods, skills, resists, armors, ammos, implants, boosters, comm channels, xp gain etc. etc. and then we could go for around 200 ppl in one zone.
Or we could leave in all of the above and switch the combat to point and click and then we could handle 300 players per zone.
Or we could leave in both and ask NC players to not focus the whole conflict between NC and DoY on one zone.
It's your choice...! ;)
I see your point, and options 1 & 2 don't appeal at all. But how about option 4; adjust the gameplay so the amount of people in zone never goes above a critical level. It wasn't a problem in NC1, so there must be a way of making it work for NC2. Nothing leaps to mind apart from removing the DoY vs NC thing, which doesn't sound like a good idea to me :) But you guys have designers and more idea how the servers work, there must be something you can change to encourage smaller op war teams.
Ozambabbaz
26-10-04, 00:39
all this talk about 20 or 200 indestinguishable PAs running around in a zone, i'd be happy if i could choose between visible or none visible PA _and_ customize PA colors plus maybe an option to wear clan logo too
But you guys have designers and more idea how the servers work, there must be something you can change to encourage smaller op war teams.
They already did - but in opposite direction : P
Realistically I can't see a limit of 80 people in a zone affecting the game much at this point except in that it removes the possibility for certain types of organised events. In normal play it's almost unheard of to see that many people in one zone.
I very much agree with Chumble in theory but in practice with the game in it's current condition I think KK would be right to apply that limit.
I do have two questions though :
1) What if you logout in a sector that subsequently hits it's limit? Considering the much increased chance of synchs and crashes in populated sectors this will inevitably happen a lot when the limit is hit. Locking people completely out of the game during critical events/battles would be a bad call.
2) @Martin - Shortly after NC1 launched you gave us the basic specs of the servers. Could you update us on the new NC2 servers. It may put pay to the silly rumours that Terra is running on the old Saturn boxes if nothing else.
What struck me was how at odds this kind of limit is with the entire design focus of neocron so far. Everything about this game encourages large groups of people in a few areas. It's no coincidence Plaza 1 became so overcrowded, people didn't just randomly pick it as a nice spot to stay at. The resources available made it the most efficient gathering spot for tradeskillers. Even now that we've been divided up, we still gather in certain areas. We go to the same few hunting areas, because they're the only worthwhile ones.
This is symptomatic of nc in general, a huge library of resources, but only 10% is actualy used. Why are so many zones praticly empty of even mobs? Why are our character setups so cookie cutter? Why are there so many useless shops that sell the exact same thing we can get somewhere else in a better location? Why are the majority of gr's restricted so that we only have a few open gr's to get around by. Why are there so few vehicle depots?
I could go on and on. I realy don't believe Neocron was ever designed to spread people accross the 300 some zones we have. Instead certain areas were done really well and everything else was just put in as filler. If you want to avoid a large number of people in one zone, then you need to give them incentive to spread out. I don't mean simply making it hard to find what equipment you need. I mean literaly giving every zone something important. No dungeon should be relegated to the "been ther once, no need to go back" list. Off the top of my head, there's Gaya Mines, a huge sparesly filled dungeon that you don't even hafta go through to get to a boss mob. And what does he drop? A laser cannon which noone uses anymore. The only purpose to ever go there now is for random missions during epics.
Shouldn't I want to go there for experience? for loot? for cash? Why is it that the chaos caves are the main hunting spot? why can't there be more?
Gaia was worth visiting ages ago for XP and rares but was (rightly) deemed too easy, nerfed and forgotten.
It became good again when Strange Books where meant to drop there.
It could be revitalised again I'm sure.
The problem with adding something unique to every zone is that people will still only want certain items and only visit certain places while the rest will be unused. This is inevitable as long as we are forced to specialise to such painful degrees. If there were more real freedom with characters people would be more likely to experiment.
That's the exact point. To make it clear: We could just throw away the whole thing about items, mods, skills, resists, armors, ammos, implants, boosters, comm channels, xp gain etc. etc. and then we could go for around 200 ppl in one zone.
Or we could leave in all of the above and switch the combat to point and click and then we could handle 300 players per zone.
Or we could leave in both and ask NC players to not focus the whole conflict between NC and DoY on one zone.
It's your choice...! ;)
Neocron is a unique concept. And this concept has natural limits. They will break away as hardware gets faster and faster and the netcode gets more optimized. But this is an evolution. It doesn't happen within a week or a month.
This unique concept is also the reason for the fact that there is no other game like NC. Believe it or not, but the technology behind NC is cutting edge. It faces and partially solves problems none of the big players like EA, MS or SONY dared to touch. We did.
We did, because we believe in the uniqueness of the concept behind NC.
...and so do you. ;)
the concept behind neocron is quite good. I can understand it's more stressed out on servers and such. But the biggest disappointment for at least myself. Is that fatal run time errors still exist. They've existed since neocron 1 and they still preside in neocron 2. Nothing is more disappointing then crashing into a y-replicant zone to be ganked by mobs on a relog. Or to be fighting and, [beep] fatal runtime error. I know it's being looked into, but. Is there any serious effort to make sure the FREs are going to be fixed and removed?
One idea also. Is perhaps getting even more powerful servers? I don't know if that'd improve the situation, yet I'm up for solutions.
Also, Martin. If you mind, are old neocron 1 bugs being looked into for being fixed? Nothing screams same old game louder than seeing bugs from neocron 1 in neocron 2. Just some thoughts and questions...
Blacksword
26-10-04, 06:39
well kk, if you cant have too many people in one place, lets put some shit in the vast number of zones that dont have shit in it. ive heard it mentioned before, a ton of times, since the release of nc1. youve come out and said that one zone will never be able to handle more than 80 people, lets start either fixing that limit, or adding stuff to the wasteland that is the wastelands. i have to wonder how this will affect player shops.
no point and click though, ill leave in a heartbeat.
EXACTLY! And that's also the reason why limiting the number of players per zone is not just the simpliest, but also pretty much THE ONLY solution to this "problem".Is the server-side component multi-CPU aware? If so, stack each server box with two CPUs. Mid-range Xeons and Opterons aren't prohibitively expensive.
If the server-side process is not multi-CPU aware, does a Zone have to be locked down to a particular server? If not, build a set of very powerful single-CPU boxes to handle large battles, say four per server cluster. When a zone starts to approach a particular limit, have it transfer over to a more powerful server in the cluster.
If you're really lucky and the server-side is both multi-CPU aware AND can move zones, then build a set of 2-way or 4-way servers for each cluster to handle large battles.
There should be a way around this problem other than limiting zones to 80 people.
I know this sounds kinda loopy, but why not "schedule" wars between pro-city and anti-city? Have something in the comms for it where the player limit is already established, the people register, and when it goes, those are the only ones with access to that zone. The balance issue would be nil, as it could be set to a predefined limit of team balancing...I.E. 35-40 is doable, where as 25/40 would be kicked out and the que restarted. To encourage skill, you enter once, and that's it, you either die or you retreat. To the victors goes the spoils of the belts, and the packs could automaticly be retrieved to the people who fell in the battle.
As for the zones where this would happen, as people say, there are places where people rarely go, and a server message could warn whoever may be in the zone when a war is about to be started to vacate, or be vacated.
I know this won't be without some glitches to it that I haven't thought of, so feel free to pick it apart.
...and so do you. ;)
I used to but since the lack of woc the severe lack of testing done that could have been done prelaunch of nc2 to get player shops and woc into the game. MJS i and i'm sure a fair few others are starting to lose faith log in less and less and think about quitting accounts down to 1 account and then total leaving.
We have massive threads about limiting players in zones where ur more than happy to comment but in more important threads about woc / players shops / bugged casting animations a kk voice is not to be seen.
*Brainwaves*
Okay - Bear with me.
So neocron is based on a grid.
Yes?
Okay - and each grid square has it's own little box of tricks to control data flow and stuff.
Okay - Why not tie 4 Grid squares (and teh corresponding grids) Into one wee cluster. 4 Grids - shared by 4 Wee boxes - Okay - so Each box monitors a zone, BUT! Not every zone is going to be in use - or heavily loaded - so while one zone in the cluster is idle - It can lend it's resources to any zones that do have a lot of action going on.
Would that Help?
Of course if all four zones of that cluster were loaded, then the problem would persist - but come on! That would take almost the entirety of the population to max the load.
Whaddya think?
Does it make sense?
DOES MY BUM LOOK BIG IN THIS?!
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