View Full Version : Spirit Mods or Monk-o-Cron ?
Pretty much I'm getting disheartened by the reports of getting zerged by armies of APU/PPU/Tank combos :(
When the Spirit Mods were in, they were great. A new tactical and strategic element to OP wars that actually brought some excitement playing a spy. Of course now that they're gone, I'm seriously considering an APU just for OP fights.
The mods brought something that PPUs had never experienced before ..... fear. You had to be a good PPU and you needed you're team mates to win. It made OP wars a much more varied experience which involved co-ordination, team work as well as individual skill.
As spy the stands now, the only viable use is a scout which has its good points but is absolutely useless when the crap hits the fan. Droning is bugged so you get the picture.
So what are you're thoughts on how the Spirit Mods affected NC1?
Please leave the stealth issues and flames out of this thread :P
especially the pistol spy is fucking awsome in op fight .. pistol pe can rock too.
spirit mod = imba.
Yes but maybe impose a time limit before stealth after firing. Just to stop the shoot, stealth, shoot, stealth crap.
especially the pistol spy is fucking awsome in op fight .. pistol pe can rock too.
spirit mod = imba.
So is that a spec'd out combat pistol spy ? (ie. MOVEON, Shelter, drugs, etc)
And what does imba mean? :p
Dribble Joy
21-10-04, 12:35
Spirit mods were the wrong solution to the ppu 'problem'.
That and they were just totally unbalanced.
KK need to drasticly change the way ppus work.
Not a number of tweaks and say it's done.
They need to bite the bullet, grab ppus by the balls and do something that may piss off a few people.
Chances are they won't though.
StealthyAssassi
21-10-04, 12:37
Monk-O-Cron sucks, I dont care what solution they implement.
Monk-O-Cron sucks, I dont care what solution they implement.
Yeah really, at this point I don't much care either, so long as Monks are solved. I'm absolutely all for Tank-o-Cron again, if it means that Monk-o-Cron is a thing of the past. I'd rather be in the wrong place at the wrong time with 5 tanks than with the norm of 10 PPUs and 8 APUs.
I think a big reason why so many apu's are involved in op wars is because of the antibuf spell so they can take out the ppu's.
I do not like the huge amount o monks either but it is also very difficult to take down the power of the ppu as if he cannot have that healing power he got noehe is pretty much useless.And I cannot say I like the idea with tanks either as they had their time when devourer was hardcore.
3 x ppu and 3 x tanks was nearly impossible to take out
Spirit Mods were imbalanced but if no changes were going to be done to the PPU class then it was the only viable solution.
The only time I've seen APU debuffs work was when my clan were using voice comms to pick a target and then hit that person when the debuff was cast.
Unfortunately debuffs aren't the main reason why APUs are present at OP wars, debuffs are only a bonus. APUs deal out damage on a large scale ..... they are the most offense heavy class in terms of damage output alone. Tanks with CS are no match for an APU with can switch between Holy Lighning, Fire Apocalypse, Poison Beams, Energy Halos, barrels and direct damage spells without having to reload ammo. PSI boosters pretty much have an immediate effect so "reload" is negligible. Also APUs do not need direct line of sight like the Tank/PE/Spies to target someone.
Maybe Spirit Mods aren't the answer but if they don't change the monk class then what is the solution?
Spirit mods are teh shit. I'm glad theyre gone.
remove the whole holy/lvl3 series of spells. Problem solved. People will adjust to use blessed spells without problems.
OMG I'm lurking here too much when I should be working !! :lol: :lol:
Spirit mods are teh shit. I'm glad theyre gone.
Why is that?
What I'm really looking for here is to get some community ideas that can at least make KK take notice. They may make the game but we experience the game which is totally different perspectives.
From a technical/development background that I'm from ..... I hate customers who just say "It doesn't work" or "Its just crap". I'll always ask them why and and then ask them what they suggest. Then we come back with a solution that fits or we suggest something else. Without proper feedback we get no value out of our product.
IMHO, KK are taking notice and they now have the resources devoted to NC2 issues. Now is the time to start getting things right :)
Anyways .... if they were to bring back Spirit Mods and change nothing else then I think the debuff effect should be a countdown until it happens .... like when you use stealthbreaker drugs or poison stacks disappearing. That way its not instant but usable. The PPU can either choose to acknowledge or not.
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 13:42
me (melee PE) and another melee PE killed a *** PPU on our own last night...
its fine.
PPU's arent immortal, Spirit mods were overpowered
me (melee PE) and another melee PE killed a *** PPU on our own last night...
its fine.
PPU's arent immortal, Spirit mods were overpowered
Are you sure he was fully buffed? How long did it take? :p
I'm not having a dig at you :)
I remember one time at band camp ..... ooops at MB in NC1 ..... that we had 3 tanks, an APU, a PE and 2 spies try to take down an PPU who was totally on the ball with the character. It was literally taking the piss ..... he even had time to taunt us a few times and outhealing the damage done. I think the the PPU was CryptoChronic at the time ..... IMO one of best anti-city PPUs at the time.
Yes over time you can kill a PPU ... but if it takes more than 5-10 minutes with over 5 or more damage dealers then that is nearly invincable during an OP war.
Dribble Joy
21-10-04, 13:53
N00b buffing + DB + less than good ppu = dead ppu. :p
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 13:55
Are you sure he was fully buffed? How long did it take? :p
I'm not having a dig at you :)
I remember one time at band camp ..... ooops at MB in NC1 ..... that we had 3 tanks, an APU, a PE and 2 spies try to take down an PPU who was totally on the ball with the character. It was literally taking the piss ..... he even had time to taunt us a few times and outhealing the damage done. I think the the PPU was CryptoChronic at the time ..... IMO one of best anti-city PPUs at the time.
Yes over time you can kill a PPU ... but if it takes more than 5-10 minutes with over 5 or more damage dealers then that is nearly invincable during an OP war.
he was fully buffed. he was running from one melee PE i saw (a BD when im crahn) so i ran over and joined in... he didnt make it to the gr, shame it was a warzone though :(
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 13:57
me (melee PE) and another melee PE killed a *** PPU on our own last night...
its fine.
PPU's arent immortal, Spirit mods were overpowered
look, just because you have a nice lil win there, doesn't mean PPUs aren't overpowered.
"hey! i made it over the street today, there's no cars driving too fast, 'cuz i made it, yo" see what i mean?
what about spell range/clipping range/client updates?
beam lag effects?
no reticle insta aim?
no LoS hitting with megadamage at uber RoF?
what about runspeed nerfs on everything else than MC or spells?
what about holy heal?
holy S/D+holy heal totally negating the only inherent drawback that APUs have?
i fear that the monk problems are here to stay, they've been here too long now, and everybody with a monk has gotten accustomed to it. go look at an op fight and look at the monks.
look at the monks.
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 13:59
look, just because you have a nice lil win there, doesn't mean PPUs aren't overpowered.
"hey! i made it over the street today, there's no cars driving too fast, 'cuz i made it, yo" see what i mean?
what about spell range/clipping range/client updates?
beam lag effects?
no reticle insta aim?
no LoS hitting with megadamage at uber RoF?
what about runspeed nerfs on everything else than MC or spells?
what about holy heal?
holy S/D+holy heal totally negating the only inherent drawback that APUs have?
i fear that the monk problems are here to stay, they've been here too long now, and everybody with a monk has gotten accustomed to it. go look at an op fight and look at the monks.
look at the monks.
i never said classes were blanced...
i said PPU's arent immortal and that spirit mod was overpowered.
dont freak out, actually read my posts. i wopuld be the first to say this is monkocron. i would be the first to say that PPU should not be a necessity in PvP... infact search for posts by me about PPU's if you doubt me.
Yea bring back spirit mods...... bring some fun back
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 14:04
k, sorry man, wasn't aiming it at you specifically, i was just afraid that the thread would turn into "omfgz tl3 heal, j00 nib, stopwhine.suk"
it's just these glaring issues have been in-game for so long now, and i haven't seen anything done to try and balance it from KKs side :confused:
It's the way the human race works...monk-o-cron...I'd perfer anything else. Something else comes along...OMG something else-o-cron.
It's just the way it will always be...lol
o, and wtf is spiritmod :confused: *nib*
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 14:30
It's the way the human race works...monk-o-cron...I'd perfer anything else. Something else comes along...OMG something else-o-cron.
It's just the way it will always be...lol
o, and wtf is spiritmod :confused: *nib*
tank o cron was the most fun (and i wasnt a tank at the time)
wtf is spiritmod :confused: *nib*
It was an ammo mod for a sniper rifle which also needed special ammo called Spirit ammo. This was introduced into Neocron 1 about 6 months before the release of Neocron 2. You needed to find a GM controlled character near various sniper spots and try to kill him. When teh GM character was near death, he would drop the Spirit ammo mod and some Spirit bullets
The initial effect was that one shot from a spirit modded rifle would instantly drop the shelter and deflector buffs from any character.
It was later changed to drop the shelter only.
Just found this thread, good idea from Carinth I think:
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=105484
tank o cron was the most fun (and i wasnt a tank at the time)
same for me i was a spy and was loving it :D
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 14:51
Cars idea sound grand IMO, but i feel the whole "runspeed/no reticle" issue should be solved as well.
If Cars deflector bypassing bullets would be implemented, how then?
Only in lo-tek weaponry?
Only lo-tek + sniper rifles?
all conventional firing weapons?
Maybe it would be an idea to introduce new guns? like a Particle Accelerator Rifle, same TL+TC as SH but with the weapon characteristics of a cannon (aiming/runspeed) due to the rifles physical bulkyness, with damage done exponentially increased by the level of shelter/deflector, ie the better shelter/deflector, the higher the damage?
hudsonbeck
21-10-04, 15:07
Its funny to see threads like this...
I never had a spirit mod and dont need them.
Just a few days ago, me and another rifle spy took down a group of 5. They had a PPU, 2 APU's, Tank, and a PE all were xx/6x ranked.
Thats two spys taking down five runners, now who should be 'nerfed'?
this was the first time i ever met that spy too, you just need team work.
I guess the nerf this, nerf that comments will always be around :(
Hudson
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 15:08
Its funny to see threads like this...
I never had a spirit mod and dont need them.
Just a few days ago, me and another rifle spy took down a group of 5. They had a PPU, 2 APU's, Tank, and a PE all were xx/6x ranked.
Thats two spys taking down five runners, now who should be 'nerfed'?
this was the first time i ever met that spy too, you just need team work.
I guess the nerf this, nerf that comments will always be around :(
Hudson
stealth should be "changed"
hudsonbeck
21-10-04, 15:10
stealth should be "changed"
It already was.... several times.
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 15:12
It already was.... several times.
do you think its right as it is now?
hudsonbeck
21-10-04, 15:14
do you think its right as it is now?
Being that my primary atm is a rifle spy, i would have to say yes.
Being objective about it, I would have to say they 'could' add about a second more delay.
;)
/edit but a second more delay between reactivating stealth is a slight tweek... we all know there are no slight tweeks in NC.
gimme this
http://ezzaneocron.20megsfree.com/images/tankysmall.jpg
over this
http://ezzaneocron.20megsfree.com/images/monkocron.jpg
anyday
hudsonbeck
21-10-04, 15:19
ugh... no thank you.
THe Tank is the only character i absolutely Hate to play... maybe i should try Melee, but i despise playing HC :(
Gimme me my hybrid back and you can have Tank-O-Cron.
Hudson
ugh... no thank you.
THe Tank is the only character i absolutely Hate to play... maybe i should try Melee, but i despise playing HC :(
Gimme me my hybrid back and you can have Tank-O-Cron.
Hudson
you have hybrids now :wtf:
Nothing more funny than a melee tank running around with a Devil's Grace while chasing after a spy and saying "wtf? I not hitting you ... h@x!!" :lol: :lol:
[TgR]KILLER
21-10-04, 15:26
sure now you got ppu/apu teams etc like it used to.. but i'm getting very annoyed by all the spies rampaging trough the cities being nothing more then stealthwhores and half the time they kill some mid level wandering around.. spirit mods would only make their job way easyer. on killer i couldn't take more then 3 shots or so from a spirit SH before dieing.. would be total crap if they would just go around like that in doy/nc stealting like mad.
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 15:27
KILLER']sure now you got ppu/apu teams etc like it used to.. but i'm getting very annoyed by all the spies rampaging trough the cities being nothing more then stealthwhores and half the time they kill some mid level wandering around.. spirit mods would only make their job way easyer. on killer i couldn't take more then 3 shots or so from a spirit SH before dieing.. would be total crap if they would just go around like that in doy/nc stealting like mad.
yup. stealth needs balancing
oh and as the pole is biased i aint voting
i neither want spirit mods or monkocron
edited for Jester ;)
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 15:34
monkocron back
you cant want it back... it hasnt gone
:edit: although i agree and havent voted
Dargeshaad
21-10-04, 15:36
Could just remove the dmg done by a spirit modded SH entirely so it's only the effect
KILLER']sure now you got ppu/apu teams etc like it used to.. but i'm getting very annoyed by all the spies rampaging trough the cities being nothing more then stealthwhores and half the time they kill some mid level wandering around.. spirit mods would only make their job way easyer. on killer i couldn't take more then 3 shots or so from a spirit SH before dieing.. would be total crap if they would just go around like that in doy/nc stealting like mad.
But its not stopping anti-city spies from doing the same thing ;)
you cant want it back... it hasnt gone
:edit: although i agree and havent voted
well its monkocron in the sence that people basically have ppus all the time, however its not like back in what really was monkocron where nearly everyone was a monk except for a few pockets of antimonk resistanse :p
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 15:38
KILLER']sure now you got ppu/apu teams etc like it used to.. but i'm getting very annoyed by all the spies rampaging trough the cities being nothing more then stealthwhores and half the time they kill some mid level wandering around.. spirit mods would only make their job way easyer. on killer i couldn't take more then 3 shots or so from a spirit SH before dieing.. would be total crap if they would just go around like that in doy/nc stealting like mad.
this is also another issue discerning from the monk problem.
people don't like to die, so they either be a tank and join an RPK clan, or join the monkey race or roll spies who can evade the monks by stealthing (generalizations are bad, but they get an obscene point across 8| )
hudsonbeck
21-10-04, 15:42
oh and as the pole is biased i aint voting
i neither want spirit mods or monkocron
edited for Jester ;)
same here
Spirit mods were the wrong solution to the ppu 'problem'.
That and they were just totally unbalanced..
All Spirit Mods needed was a countdown ticker like the Anti-Heal Mosquito Drone had with heal. Period. KK is adverse to small changes in an effort to fix things though. Complete removal was more up their alley :rolleyes:
Drones are also AWSOME in op fights a raptor ********** apus hands down
and pistol spies are mosltey ignores so they run around shooting peops and doing great damage lol
u cannot easily win a fight with only monks u need tanks as well an apu will go down with freeze and DB fast a tank wont u need some tankys to shield for the apus
also i do remeber tankocron and the only reason it was great was cuz there was no ppus i think we had 2 or 3 ppus on pluto rest was hybrids and there was FAAAAAR between the good overpowered hybrids most sucked and could be taken down by a tank or pe etc
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 15:58
Drones are also AWSOME in op fights a raptor ********** apus hands down
and pistol spies are mosltey ignores so they run around shooting peops and doing great damage lol
u cannot easily win a fight with only monks u need tanks as well an apu will go down with freeze and DB fast a tank wont u need some tankys to shield for the apus
also i do remeber tankocron and the only reason it was great was cuz there was no ppus i think we had 2 or 3 ppus on pluto rest was hybrids and there was FAAAAAR between the good overpowered hybrids most sucked and could be taken down by a tank or pe etc
APU PPU combo is the best in the game.
you dont need a single tank at an OP war, if an APU has S/D and a holy heal on them they easily perform as well as a tank
ppu/melee tank >apu/ppu
if you add 2 more teams the tank team will get even stronger....
hmm or dunno think it would be kinda close 0o
anyways i hated spirit mods and those should never grace neocron again....
let those fecking spys that refuse to tradeskill die..
or drone... or scout... or camp hacknet
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 16:32
ppu/melee tank >apu/ppu
if you add 2 more teams the tank team will get even stronger....
hmm or dunno think it would be kinda close 0o
anyways i hated spirit mods and those should never grace neocron again....
let those fecking spys that refuse to tradeskill die..
or drone... or scout... or camp hacknet
disagree... my PPU alone outheals any melee weapon (unless i stand still like an idiot)
an APU can antibuff me and if they really want the PPU can forign (sp? :p) / noob buff me
I tought it was good back the days of
No PA but tank PA
PEs stealth
Hybs
Tank-o-cron
We took down several tanks in one night with a group of 3 musketeers.. I mean spies, two rifles and one pistol and that was leet, they even had ppu with them but they didn't see us because we stealthed and their ppu didn't have true sight.
i glad to see the back of spirit mods. they were too unbalanced and were highly duped.
Dribble Joy
21-10-04, 17:11
All Spirit Mods needed was a countdown ticker like the Anti-Heal Mosquito Drone had with heal. Period. KK is adverse to small changes in an effort to fix things though. Complete removal was more up their alley :rolleyes:
Still does not solve the ppu problem.
If anything, it would add to the frustration and increasing complexity of a ppus job.
Besides the spirit mod was unbalanced because of the gank factor it afforded rifle pes and spies, not for killing ppus, but other PEs and spies, that simply could not counter it. Re-cast? by the time your shelter is gone and you are casting again, the 3 HL shots have killed you.
[TgR]KILLER
21-10-04, 17:16
this is also another issue discerning from the monk problem.
people don't like to die, so they either be a tank and join an RPK clan, or join the monkey race or roll spies who can evade the monks by stealthing (generalizations are bad, but they get an obscene point across 8| )
i got.. killer ( rifle PE ) got 1 apu then.. got my poker who's a PE and my researcher to be who is a spy but pure lowtech since i need her points for tradeskilling..
never even had a tank hate them :p
seeing slient hunters being deleted due to the spirit mods being in them was totally unfair tbh and bringing them back will be super....just do as you're told KK FFS!
Jesterthegreat
21-10-04, 17:57
seeing slient hunters being deleted due to the spirit mods being in them was totally unfair tbh and bringing them back will be super....just do as you're told KK FFS!
they werent deleted.
gimme this
http://ezzaneocron.20megsfree.com/images/tankysmall.jpg
over this
http://ezzaneocron.20megsfree.com/images/monkocron.jpg
anyday
Ahahaha, I was at both fights!!11
Edit: Didn't vote either because of biased poll.
stoopid biased poll....
PPU's were stealth nerfed holy heal heals alot slower now.... its not that hard to kill someone with a PPU up teh arse anymore
Jeebus .... to get the thread back on track .... its not about a few skirmishes of pk'ers or solo pk'ing or the like :rolleyes:
Its about the 95% reliance on the monk class during OP wars. For example, if a team of 5 spies and 5 PEs can't win against a 2 PPU and 2 APU combination during OP wars then what does that say about balance ? :wtf:
I like how some people go out of their way point out a biased poll and someone's elses mistake but won't lift a damn finger to suggest possible solutions. You wonder why KK decides to ignore the community at times :rolleyes:
So what are you're thoughts on how the Spirit Mods affected NC1?
I didn't ask for views on the poll, heck you don't even have to vote in the damn poll, all I asked was to discuss a growing balance issue which hinders the scope of playability within Neocron. Sometimes its better to shut up then to seem irrelevant :angel:
dude play anygame.....if u dont have a cleric with you u get pwned by someone who does
neocron is the same
tbh i didnt read the whole thread, but some posts...
and some ppl say, spirit sh was imbalanced, etc, its not ok if u can kill a ppu with a single spy etc.
but (!!!)
u cant kill a a good ppu with spirit mod.u cant!
i killed so many wannabe ppu's with my spirit sh, but thats what seperates the wannabes from the good ones...
but if i think about ppu's like iCe`, Gerald Tarrant, Skuld ( just examples for ubar ppu's) i have to say spirit mod wasnt overpowered.
if u could kill every ppu with a spirit sh, i would say ok, spirit sh is/was overpowered.
otherwise its just seperates the anybody from the somebody :)
(its just my opinion :o )
/Eric
dude play anygame.....if u dont have a cleric with you u get pwned by someone who does
neocron is the same
That still does not fix a problem .... accepting something that "just is" because KK are too busy/lazy to balance the game just does not cut it.
Yes I don't want to be just a tradeskiller spy ..... KK have given the spy a wide range of stuff but ineffectal at best.
I am rolling an APU because OP wars were meant to be the content enjoyment for high level characters. A high level spy can raid DoY at times sure but at an OP war, what class do most people use ..... monks.
So Spirit Mods are overpowered and not the right solution from the responses in this discussion. But heck I enjoyed being a high level spy so much during OP wars during that time ... I've never had a Spirit Mod ever .... I've always been in teams where there was a sniper with a Spirit modded SH ... and my clan being mostly spies in NC1, we could hold our own without PPU support with the Spirit Mod.
yeh im not agains SH mods at all....just his stoopid biased poll so i voted no
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 19:04
dude play anygame.....if u dont have a cleric with you u get pwned by someone who does
neocron is the same
nope
the fps/skill based difference disrupts the class balance when some have a skill based reticle, others don't
yeh ok....whatever in any MMO without a healer u get owned by ppl who have a healer
Neocron is the same
even if it uses an FPS engine
If i get a recticle on my APU i wanna do a burst of HL (say 4 HL instantly)
[edit] oh yeah and i almost forgot everygame out there is imballanced since you NEED healers at the endgame(EQ, DAOC, SWG)
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 19:19
NC is different from any of those games
NC claims to be an FPS hybrid, and from the start it circumvents the MMO related pings by having a skill affecting a reticle, thus creating the FPS illusion.
monks got introduced and they got introduced with no skill affecting reticle, just fire and forget type aiming, thereby foregoing the first thought KK had with MMO netcode>fps and they have never rectified this
then they add the gross APU spells and PPU spells that nullify the APUs inherent class drawbacks
so netcode+monk aiming+client updates = bad
theres no way around this, it's there but most people don't care 'cuz they can drop an APU or a PPU once in awhile and mark the whole thing down to personal skill OR they self play monks
what do u mean monks were introduced? they were in from teh start afaik
[edit]if i take a full burst from a CS it does about 50-100 more than a HL
so if they did introduce a recticle all it should affect is damage if u hit fully closed should do HL damage X 3
KK will not remove monks or PPu's...so youll have to learnt to deal with it....SHmods i have no problem with(theyre power wasnt the reason for the wipe, theyre widespread duping was afaik) they may be introduced at a later time.[edit] oops wrong person
Put all ppus against a wall and shoot them and clone them back as hybrids, balasically remove all ppu spells over tl 40 or maybe tone down blessed shelter a bit and keep that in to differentiate them a bit from PEs, but no blessed heal.
Dribble Joy
21-10-04, 20:05
The problem with that is you effectively reduce NC to a stat/skill based fps within a supposed persistant rpg world.
The role of the ppu is lost, even if you get balance.
Doing something like this (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=114752), might work to reduce the effectiveness of ppus on a team.
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 20:18
reduce it from what? a "stat/skill based fps within a supposed persistant rpg world with monks as the only pure twitch-skill class" to a "stat/skill based fps within a supposed persistant rpg world" ?
the link u provided, does indeed look snazzy, i dig it :)
Dribble Joy
21-10-04, 20:21
What I really meant is that atm NC is/should be a team based MMORPG, and should continue to be so.
Reducing everyone to combat classes would heavily dimminish that. To the point that besides the rpg/persistant world thing, it would be effectively the same as PS or ut2k4.
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 20:25
exactly
i still see only monks left at an OP war, + the generic pet and sole stealther
that's not "team-based" to me, that's "outmonk the fuckers"
APU/PPU Teams are always gonna be around.. they were made to work together.. ive played apu 19 months now.. and i still enjoy it..
@ Shinto, you followed the trend I see ;)
The spirit mod sucked.. not because of it being over-powered.. but more to do with the fact the 'bigger' clans had duped mods n shit, please no-one deny the dupping it was pretty evident..
Imagine an apu without a ppu now and then.. It would be the most annoying/stressful class to play.. It not just 'set class' O' cron its to do with how people handle the situations..
E.g take down the apu's as opposed to the ppu's first, yes im fighting for the Monk's cause playing one for so long, ive seen class hoppers come and go.. it will always happen.. the skilled stick to the classes they are good at.. everyone else jumps around to compete with the constant 'O crons'
Spirit Mod back.. Nope! its gone due to the sledgehammer effect it had on PPU nerfs.. APU's are there for a reason please respect that ;)
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 20:44
So u like the class, cool
but do u acknowledge that there's problems regarding the monk class at all?
So u like the class, cool
but do u acknowledge that there's problems regarding the monk class at all?
Of course.. But the spirit Mod isnt the way to solve it. But also think that a 'nerf' to shift the O'cron factor is shit too, for the people that have played the class for so long.. they arn't over powered! but when everyone is the same class then that becomes 'overpowered'..
I dont know.. Its hard, KK really need to think about this one!
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 21:23
yep, you would know this, how'd you think your clan would react if monks were balanced? i mean, SS is hardly known for their hordes of spies
but that's neocron for ya, a clans success rate in OP wars is how many monks they can muster...suckcessfull
and it's a quite typical reply, don't you think?
"KK need to think hard about this one" and play along with your monk?
Business viewpoint is to please the loudest part of the masses, shifting class balance would seem unwise after all this time when you check the number of complaint threads/posters as opposed to the number of players in-game, no?
i'm not saying put back in the spirit mod as it were, i would however, at any time, oppose the fact that it was massively overpowered.
overpowered as in CS a tl 105 weapon isn't overpowered for it's TL?
HL, also overpowered for it's TL
netcode, also overpowered for its poor TL when you factor in the various aiming mechanisms, range on weapon balances etc.
spies have all kindsa toys
it was tanka cron(and is returning to tank a cron with melee uberness)
atm its monk a cron
PE's are just mediocore all around(with a few exceptions)
ive allways played a monk even back when APU's did alot less damage and capped spells at 500%(i think) back when everyone and their mother was Hybrid, and even before that when everyone and their mother were tanks....
I personally think APU's are fairly well ballanced....PPu's got theire holy heal rates nerfed and so their getting more ballanced....but TBH a healer should be able to keep ya alive against almost anything
Ugh I don't even know where to begin, done this so many times.
Silent Hunter was a step in the wrong direction, you're focusing on the killability of ppu's which isn't really the problem. The problem is how important ppu's are. There needs to be a reduction in how necessary we are. Yet at the same time we can't be rendered useless or pointless. Making us more killable just makes our lives more stressful and leads towards us being pointless. What good is a team support character that's killed right out?
Many proposals have been made, my favorite is making the ppu dependant on their team for defense. The ppu should focus on team support, not team & self. Some ways to do this are Tanks being able to tank damage for others(gasp!) or having damage dealt to the ppu disperse among the team. Another way is to duplicate the ppu role with Spy Engineers. Spies could become just like Monks in that they don't use weapons but instead use Gadgets/Tech. APU and PPU lines of Spies could exist with them using offensive and defensive devices. I especialy liked this, but it's way too much work to think kk would ever do it. Tanks could then truely be Combat Specialists by being the only ones that specialize in gun usage. PE's could become real joat's by having access to hybridized weaponry which combines different areas (tech/psi psi/guns tech/guns, etc). Oh well : (
TankoCron wasn't such a great time really. Well I take that back, it was a blast and hell of a lot more fun then now... but that's just because I was way overpowered and made important by having very few other ppu's around. But I can accept that the current situation is more favorable. Do you have any idea how unfair it was to have the top ppu's be responsible for the domination of certain clans? Unless you got one of these magic ppu's you had no chance.
"KK need to think hard about this one" and play along with your monk?
Yes.. play along with my monk.. since APU's aint the over powered class..
anyways.. Carinth summed up what i was gonna say.. ;)
APU's got a range nerf.. a fucktard random damage.. what else ya want.. our con decreased to 10... :rolleyes:
Ozambabbaz
21-10-04, 23:19
Yes.. play along with my monk.. since APU's aint the over powered class..
anyways.. Carinth summed up what i was gonna say.. ;)
APU's got a range nerf.. a fucktard random damage.. what else ya want.. our con decreased to 10... :rolleyes:
well, i gotta give it to ya, your right...APUs are also overpowered.
unhappy with a range nerf? well, the moment your APU is in firing range out on open ground, he isn't shown on local yet.
fucktard random damage? every other conventional weapon has random damage, burst weapons rarely, if ever, land all shots in a burst. single shot weapons don't always hit, but wait, APU spells always hit, even if your reticle just grazed the opponent, no?
Con 10 is a nice idea, i have to say, it might make up for the runspeed difference, class weapons in between have as well as the closing reticle issue
no, you do not like it, if your class gets balanced. change is bad, mkay. did i like it when stealth was made spy only? no, and i still disagree with that. how about terminator RoF nerf, patch 163 speccing, PPU dmg% decrease/increase, PPU/PPW dmg% shift, freezer weapon folly while HPara got boosted, weapon runspeed, you name it, PEs got fucked, i got fucked.
APU's got a range nerf.. a fucktard random damage.. what else ya want.. our con decreased to 10... :rolleyes:
ooooooo dont give me ideas :p
i personally dont like the Spirit mod, i think that it overpoweres an already to powerful weapon.
If it is made available again, i think it should only be made available as as long as it is available to all
The preponderance of monks is a problem.
Trying to argue otherwise only makes one look mentally challenged.
However - the Spirit mod (and it's distribution method) was not the way to fix it.
CARINTH im curious as how u would recommend making tanks tank damage.....it works with dumb ai that agroes whoevers doing the most damage.....but in PvP a player will home in on the PPU real fast regardless of who/what else is attacking it
PPU are balanced and fine, this thread is ridiculous =P
Nothing to see here, move on.. go post on the 'Roll Backs Suck' thread! thx
Monkocron>Spirit Spies
Fix monks instead of bringing the spirit ammo back in.
Monkocron>Spirit Spies
Fix monks instead of bringing the spirit ammo back in.
Stop with the fix monk Bullshit.. be more precise.. maybe its more of a case of bring every other fucker up to scratch :p
I dont know.. I personally have no problem with team of apu/ppu's and ppu's aint overpowered.. anyone skilled can take one out..
anyways, I dunno how to word my opinion.. so ill just say (:rolleyes:)
the only way to fix monks (ppu specifically) is to remove them, which - what's rather obvious for everyone - wont happen.
Like i said before, remove the all holy/lvl 3 line of spells. PPUs are enough powerful with the blessed spells as well. They will be still unkillable solo, but finally they wont be able to negate any dmg directed to them. Supporting role would be still possible and still very useful, but people supported by PPUs would finally be killable at all.
but PPUs then would have a large spell gap, which would result into lvling gap etc etc. Therefore the easiest way would be just to remove them. Once and for good.
QuantumDelta
22-10-04, 02:29
Screw spirit mods.
...I don't have any input for monk problems, though I acknowledge the fact that there are problems.
Dribble Joy
22-10-04, 02:33
For the record I am a n00b.
Singularity
22-10-04, 03:51
spies can still snipe ... not just spam spirit .. anyway if spirit came back they'd be far more rare than they were
Lucid Dream
22-10-04, 05:17
spies can still snipe ... not just spam spirit .. anyway if spirit came back they'd be far more rare than they were
If spirit mods ever came back, and my gun was not made back into a spirit ammo usable rifle, I will break the internet with my fury. Seriously, heres what to do with spirit ammo - make them way 10 per clip, and make the clips a max of 4 ammo (one shot) and make the gun only load one shot at a time like was intended (I think). There. you have a rare mod, that can be used for an instant debuff, but you could only carry about 8 or 9 rounds.
Spirit mods were crap. They were unbalanced, because a rifle spy on drugs with stealth, shelter, a good setup and a spirit-sh was totally overpowered.
And they reward teams with a large amount of PPUs. Why ? A PPU who has to support a full team on his own is more vulernable to such a hidden attack and when he dies chances that someone resurrects him are low.
A team with many PPUs has no problem at all ! The support will still continue, if one PPU is under pressure or even shot down. Chances are also high that one of his ppu mates resurrects him. That's a big advantage for teams with a lot of PPUs.
PPUs have to be balanced by reducing the strength of their support spells e.g. heals etc., not by means that give an extra advantage to teams with a lot of PPUs. That's at least my opinion :cool:
Spirit mods were crap. They were unbalanced, because a rifle spy on drugs with stealth, shelter, a good setup and a spirit-sh was totally overpowered.
And they reward teams with a large amount of PPUs. Why ? A PPU who has to support a full team on his own is more vulernable to such a hidden attack and when he dies chances that someone resurrects him are low.
A team with many PPUs has no problem at all ! The support will still continue, if one PPU is under pressure or even shot down. Chances are also high that one of his ppu mates resurrects him. That's a big advantage for teams with a lot of PPUs.
PPUs have to be balanced by reducing the strength of their support spells e.g. heals etc., not by means that give an extra advantage to teams with a lot of PPUs. That's at least my opinion :cool:The team with the most PPUs always wins. Well, assuming they got equal skill that is.
But its right, a drugged up spy or PE using a sprit SH was way too strong. If one person in an opfight is enought to keep a ppu busy so he cant support anymore, thats just wrong.
When the mod was quite new, we had lots of fights vs a clan that had one spirit sh spy. He always had a ppu with him, he was the first to get a rezz when we managed to kill him. As long as he was alive, we were losing. When he died, we won. Everytime.
Not to mention the extreme amount of mods there were. That poor sniper mustve died thousands of times. And most of the time to just one or two clans. o_O
And most of the time to just one or two clans.
HAHA, whatever are you talking about....? ;)
I played for hours a day on tons of different chars since the spirit mods came out to when they were wiped, and managed to see that Johnny guy ONCE in local, I didnt even see the guy himself :mad: I would still like to really try one out :cool:
@lucid, that sounds like a plan to me. If they only got about 10 shots per inventory it would force them to be more strategic on who was debuffed and when. However, they could always stealth 2 back to the gogu and grab more. But that would be a super PITA.
CARINTH im curious as how u would recommend making tanks tank damage.....it works with dumb ai that agroes whoevers doing the most damage.....but in PvP a player will home in on the PPU real fast regardless of who/what else is attacking it
The easy way is to have the Tank gain the ability to pick a player and absorb some of the damage done to them. So for example in a team you could have the ppu healing the team and a tank absorbing damage dealt to the ppu.
Another way is to introduce Shields for Tanks, which acomplish a similar goal but instead of the Tank taking damage, it's the armor/shield. This was explained to me once, but I forget exactly how it went. Somehow you'd hafta let the person being protected still see around him. It would be rather silly to protect your ppu when he can't see his team to buff/heal them.
In either case the Tank has given up takin part in combat to perform a more defensive role. Would also need to make sure its not possible for an infinite feedback loop of sorts, tank keep ppu alive, ppu keep tank alive, live forever. The Shield works because it would break down nomatter what the ppu did. I think the other way is safe too, since if the tank is bein hurt that much that the ppu has to focus on him, then the rest of the team isn't being covered. So they can be killed and all firepower brought onto the ppu/tank.
Basicly my goal is the spread around the team work. The ppu is like the super handyman that does everything, that's just not right. Not only is it stressful to ppu's, but its unfair to everyone else. In these examples the ppu is nolonger responsible for defending himself and the team, he can focus on just the team.
One thing that could balance the game out a bit, but it is not likely to happen (I say this my self so you don't have to post 100 "not likely to happen" posts after me like you allways do..) is the introduction of skills,(for spies) like if you are using projectile weapon you could shoot "venom shot" that ignores all defence and poisons the victim, you are too busy to heal yourself that you lose your team mate, ofcourse a long cooldown should be introduced so that this is used as a opening shot when attacking a ppu / xxx team, allso other skills should be introduced and all classes should have these aswell. This way we could be on our way balancing the game through skills and not by changing content all the time which by all means is far more tedious work than changing few stats on skills that affect the whole class (i.e. if you change weapon stats it only affects the people who are using the weapon thus making some other weapon wielder more powerful).
But like I said, not likely to happen since this is no ordinary mmorpg, but skills like these could be good if made right, and RP means could be explained the same way psi is explained (they were literally a very small group of ppl living in caves that had these skills and now all have them o_O )
..., grab ppus by the balls and do something that may piss off a few people....
s/d selfcast and only group spells for others.
spirit mods were a pathetic wepon/mod and no they shouldnt be put back in stealthing rifle spys annoy me as it is with there healing lights yeh give them somat else to be ******** with
yeh bring back silenced spirit modded sh and silecned healing light combo seriously some people are dumb as fux why would you give a single class that combo yeh you say apus can do it but they cant stealth etc
tbh i think rifle spys are lame i think they need a full rework
Chase.Devine
22-10-04, 20:48
1. Balance PPUs without Spirit
2. done
:rolleyes:
tbh i think rifle spys are lame i think they need a full rework
'TBH', get some skill and stop whining about things that have nothing to do with the problem. Monks need the rework, not spies. Would a spy have to stealth around and debuff PPUs if that was the only way they could kill them?? No. Would a spy have to run away from any APU if the apu didnt kill them in 4 shots every time? No. Would that spy have to use his stealth tool as much if he had a better way of defending himself? No.
KK decided to make spies a horribly weak class defense wise, and to make up for that we have a stealth tool. As I said before when was the last time you heard someone says, "this is spy'o'cron now". Never, so stop acting like spies are soo insanely uber and overpowered just because they could debuff a PPU or use stealth. I dont ever recall mass amounts of people rolling spies. :rolleyes:
bah spies have lotsa toys now......with hacknet and all.....regardless of who can enter hacknet spies are overpowered in there so they should be nerfed :P
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