View Full Version : Are classes balanced
Asurmen Spec Op
18-10-04, 07:00
I am asking a simple question and I would ask a lack of flaming please
Answer the poll and post your reasons please
this is a public poll please dont be an ass for once people
-=Dredduk=-
18-10-04, 08:52
tbh
I think the only class are properly balanced are spy's....
APU's have always got a ppu so there way overpowered.
Tanks are balanced i surpose as well....
PE's arent balanced because they have no real skill and are pritty useless in opwars and also have no chance against a apu really.(in a pritty open area anyway)
ppu's are balanced for lvling but take the piss when it comes to pvp.
nothing worse when your going around looking for a fight then you hit by a Holy Lighting in the back/legs gone try to fight back but isnt worth it because of a ppu is there.
thats my opinon anyway.,
angelsenior
18-10-04, 10:22
My opinion in this is that all Classes are pretty balanced (up to 70-80% of the time) and all classes are unbalanced (20% of the time).
The only really overpowered class is a hybrid monk (most of the time).
Lets take a closer look;
Rifle PE; medium damage, good range, good resists, good spells.
Pistol PE; good damage, short to medium range, good resists, good spells
PEs can choose to do limited tradeskilling, drive medium vehicles, some gunning capabilities. PEs cant specialize like other classes can.
HC tank; short range mostly, high damage, very good resists, inferior spells.
MC tank; very short range, high damage, fast hit rate, very good resists, inferior spells. Mobility is the key here, VS a more mobile target you'll stand no chance.
Tanks are mostly pure combat, gunning vehicles, very few options beyond that
Spy sniper; low health, stealth, very high damage, very good range, difficult to spot (due to range and no swirly on silent hunter), medium spells.
very good at tradeskilling, hacking, driving (not gunning) vehicles.
APU; very high damage, low health, very good offensive spells, easy targeting
PPU; very few to no damage, low health, very good defensive spells, easy targeting.
PPU are generally difficult to kill, but do minimal damage in return.
Hybrid monk; good damage, low health, very good defensive spells, easy targeting
monks can be good at tradeskilling, but are quite limited due to PSI requirements.
In Duels, a HC or MC tank may jump/zerg any class and have a chance to win.
PPU VS Hybrid, this is mostly a stalemate (i think), as both have good defenses, a hybrid has a chance to kill the PPU, but a PPU cant do enough damage to kill the hybrid (but can survive long enough to get away alive).
APU VS PPU; balanced fight, one side is full offensive, other full defensive could go either way.
APU VS hybrid; normally the APU stands no chance because of his lack of defense but could win if he gets the initiative (ie hybrid doesnt get time to put up defensive spells).
SPY sniper VS any class; the sniper can penetrate any defensive setup in a good degree and his range and stealth gives him a good chance to escape, but if hes jumped he'll go down quickly.
Monks VS PEs; rifle PEs have some advantages with their range and damage (as long as they use their range), but mostly no PE can stand up to a monk because damage/defense ratio of the monks is too high in comparison to PEs
Monks VS tanks; both can deal good damage and have good defenses so its quite balanced mostly with some advantage for hybrid monks.
PEs VS tanks; the combination of good mobility, damage and good spells can spell doom for a tank but the high damage/health/resists ratio of a tank may counterbalance this. PEs will win in the long run (they need some time to cast their spells), tanks win mostly in the short run (their healing rate is low so they mostly lose if the fight lasts longer).
in high level PvM encounters, tanks and monks tend to rule, while SPY and PE stand few chances.
In team fights, the APU, PPU, hybrid, tank combination is very good, PEs play mostly a secondary role and snipers are very good for support (long range fire) but not for fighting in close quarters.
As we can see, each class has its advantages, all depends on the circumstances mostly (initiative, terrain, team combination, play style) and also the player's skill in setup/playing.
As some classes have more chances in fights, other classes have more play style options/versatility to choose from.
So as I said its both balanced and unbalanced depending on situation.
Its up to each player to know what his character can/could achieve and which situations to avoid or not.
It is clear that specialization of the main skills is very important for high end situations, but being more versatile could result in more fun/less restrictions in a general sense.
Anyways, Lotsa fun to all of you ;)
$tormbringer
18-10-04, 10:33
Spy sniper; low health, stealth, very high damage, very good range, difficult to spot (due to range and no swirly on silent hunter), medium spells.
very good at tradeskilling, hacking, driving (not gunning) vehicles.
PPU; very few to no damage, low health, very good defensive spells, easy targeting.
PPU are generally difficult to kill, but do minimal damage in return.
Hybrid monk; good damage, low health, very good defensive spells, easy targeting
uhm sry sir... but i dont think that 370 to 400 hp is low health....
ok back to topic...
the only class that is not well balanced is the ppu... no other class is so necessary for fighting/lvling than the ppu
one dmg dealer/ppu team can take out a full team of ppl without ppu... in my eyes this is imbalanced
the other classes r pretty balanced... a pe can beat every class on a 1on1 basis
the tank can take shitloads of dmg and do some decent dmg too
spies can stealth, have fairly good resist and have a nice dmg output
apus do massive dmg but cant take much hits due to low resists (when unbuffed)
Dribble Joy
18-10-04, 10:36
Balance comes on two levels.
Basic combat balance between the combat classes (direct dmg-output/defence balance), and team balance (additional team things like foreign castings, DB and the effects of several classes teaming).
Basic combat balance is.. quite close, there are a few bugs to be ironed out, things like class distinction (PES and Spies specifically in the later).
The problem with APUs is that they are fine up close, thier aiming method makes little impact over a recticle in a duel/confined environment. However at range, where a rifle/pistol/heavy user might have to wait at least a second for rectilce closure (all the time maintaining recticle lock with the target), an APU needs not to, they can start clicking away.
Hybrids are also a problem.
Whether this should/can be addressed is a different matter.
Team balance is a bit different, and is more to do with the way the classes interact and affect those also in the team. Problems here can also mess with the basic combat balance too, for example foreign shield casting.
One glaring problem we have at team level is the PPUs, you cannot deny it.
The main problem is that they have the capacity to confer great defensive bonuses, while retaining them for themselves at the same time. The role of the ppu should not be removed, but what to do about it. There's one (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=114752) idea that might work.
Other team based balancing also needs to include the other classes/sub-classes, each should be of equal value to a team.
As it stands they are not.
tbh
I think the only class are properly balanced are spy's....
APU's have always got a ppu so there way overpowered.
Tanks are balanced i surpose as well....
PE's arent balanced because they have no real skill and are pritty useless in opwars and also have no chance against a apu really.(in a pritty open area anyway)
ppu's are balanced for lvling but take the piss when it comes to pvp.
nothing worse when your going around looking for a fight then you hit by a Holy Lighting in the back/legs gone try to fight back but isnt worth it because of a ppu is there.
thats my opinon anyway.,
Huh? How can one class be balanced? Balanced with what? Themselves? If its with themselves then every class is balanced in that way.
u just want another nerf.
all classes are pretty good balanced atm. cept maybe the PE cuz its fucking hard to get drugs.
for the rest:
tis all good dood
All classes are balanced IMO except PEs but PEs are balanced in there own way for what tey are there fo... you can cap one in under 6 hours ffs they don't deserve the same talant as all other classes.
PPUs are balanced in OP wars (except with these retarded DAOC cast animation bull shit) both sides get the chance to have them and it comes to skill in the end. A good team with 1 PPU can whipe the floor on a team with 5 PPUs if they are good... how is that over balanced?
tbh
PE's arent balanced because they have no real skill and are pritty useless in opwars and also have no chance against a apu really.(in a pritty open area anyway)
errrr no real skill?
they can use the same rifles/pistols as a spy, they got more RC/PC than a spy at dex 80.. they CON is just as good as a Tanks CON.
PEs can use explosive ammo. Dood with holy S/D on a PE and some drugs its PE > APU.
depends on the skills aswell
Slasher PE + tl3 heal > PPU
Thats a bias poll, why
well each class has 2 classifications, ie
Tanks = heavy and melee
spies = pistol and rifle
pe = alot of classifications , but mainly pistol and rifle
monks = APU / PPU
People may feel pistol spies are under balanced and rifle are over balanced
Where melee may be over and heavy spot on ...
How can you put a poll there for char class and include APU / PPU, rather than MONKS
Either have mods change so you have Prime class with categories, or just prime class, else this is another dig at monks thread
Asurmen Spec Op
18-10-04, 13:28
Thats a bias poll, why
well each class has 2 classifications, ie
Tanks = heavy and melee
spies = pistol and rifle
pe = alot of classifications , but mainly pistol and rifle
monks = APU / PPU
People may feel pistol spies are under balanced and rifle are over balanced
Where melee may be over and heavy spot on ...
How can you put a poll there for char class and include APU / PPU, rather than MONKS
Either have mods change so you have Prime class with categories, or just prime class, else this is another dig at monks thread
acually I dont want a nerf I just want to know where everyone else stands
APU/PPU have a big diference and I thought they should be seperate
Ozambabbaz
18-10-04, 18:39
The current implementation of the monk in this game as it is now, is the essence of imbalance.
This is a skill/skill game, where you'd want good twitch skills and good character skills.
Now the monk was "balanced" statwise the same as anybody else, the combined 300 mainstat rule. With the current skill spread-out this means they can fore-go any other skill under Dex than Agl, giving them the same or in most cases better runspeed than any other combat class, save the MC variants. Also the 100 Int means they get some crucial belts that allows for this Uber-mode they're in.
This is a very important aspect in viewing the PvP balance. PvP in NC is as in any other game, hit the opponent faster than he hits you, and avoid being hit.
Now this feature combined with the no-reticle-aiming on monk modules, leaves this fire & forget effect we have at current.
On top of this, at some point weapon runspeed reducement was introduced in some patch (seriously can't recall which), which again boosted the monks combat capabilities. Meaning they have no weapon slowdown.
At some point KK tried to remedy another aspect of the PvP dance, they introduced random damage on APU spells, in some vain attempt to attone for the fact that regular weaponry misses alot more while on the move.
Now to make matters even worse, there's a really shitty implementation of the Beam Spells, more often than not causes hits to lag, a sort of delayed damage, which is impossible to counter with the normal counters (heal/meds/stealth). This is mostly called the "stfu n00b" effect.
For a final "fuck off, you twat, roll a monk or lose" regulation, the one direction of monks, PPUs, totally outweigh the inherent drawbacks of APUs having fastest runspeed, fastest targetting and by far best damage capabilities of all.
This means, that at present time, every serious PvPer has a monk char.
And here's a question; how many monks wass left standing when the OP war you saw/participated in was over?
tbh
I think the only class are properly balanced are spy's....
APU's have always got a ppu so there way overpowered.
Tanks are balanced i surpose as well....
PE's arent balanced because they have no real skill and are pritty useless in opwars and also have no chance against a apu really.(in a pritty open area anyway)
ppu's are balanced for lvling but take the piss when it comes to pvp.
nothing worse when your going around looking for a fight then you hit by a Holy Lighting in the back/legs gone try to fight back but isnt worth it because of a ppu is there.
thats my opinon anyway.,
Fire modded judge on APU w/ no ppu = dead APU
I think APUs still have FAR too much dmg output for only using TL 101 spells (IE holy lightning). They barely have to aim, and can hit you around walls as you run away. The frequency and devastating dmg of a capped HL overcomes practically any defense (save for a holy shelter or very well setup capped tank con).
I also feel the comabt spies are at a disadvantage to other classes. They are the only class where you NEED to drug to be combat effective. Sure pop a beast/desterol forte (sp?) and you become uber, but why should spies be gimped to hell if they dont? It makes me mad that my PE can have more P-C than my spy yet I have TWENTY levels on him. People say they have very high dmg output....compared to what? A PE...?
I would love to just once be able to PvP effectively with a spy that is not 100% capped and doesnt use drugs. So we get stealth. Woo, a chance to run away when anyone shoots us. That gets old after a while. And people bitch/moan whenever you stealth.
Spies have the least dmg output when compared to tanks/apus and have the least defense. Sure they do more dmg than a PE, but can a spy have PE like defenses to make up for relatively low dmg? No...
A spy can be fun to play, but they will never be more than a pain in the ass to the other classes.
And btw this is just concerning combat spies. Trade skillers, well there isnt mucht to say about them :)
PE's imo are combat wise balanced. But now that they dont have a stealth they become utteraly unfun to play and useless IMO. Before stealth was removed PEs were very effective PK machines. A few PEs (who were gimped combat wise) used stealth 2 which made like 5 people mad. So KK decides to take stealth away. Why not just limit their stealth useage to lvl1? Make 2/3/4 all have a spy req. Problem solved and I will once more feel normal playing my PE.
Given that the classes balance in relation to each other it's not possible for one to be balanced while another isn't, it's an all or nothing situation. That said the PPU is clearly the root of all evil in this world, so no, the classes are not balanced.
My opinion is;
Classes are fine balanced.
A PE, Is nice if he fights alone against a APU out in wastelands, MB 1on1 he have a good chance, then he have to be a bit nerfed in Op fights like he is now.
APU, a nice class but a bit riski you never know if a melee tank, hc or a spy snipe you so you have to be carefull but, APU aren't realy good to run at MB alone you can easy be rushed or something you can't heal your self. So APU is realy strong to OP WARS or together with a PPU. And the DAMAGA has to be high you see APU he is master of attack, dmg so its pointless if he sucks to make high dmg.
PPU, Like it is now its posible to kill a PPU if you are a bit cleaver. But again a PPU shouldn't get nerfed its riski to run around with all does spells.
TANK, Perfect as it is, if you fight alone against a APU in MB you have a good chance to win, but at OP fights or a APU with PPU against TANK and a PPU the APU has a better chance but thats fair.
SPY, Perfect he don't have the best defense but he got more then enough chances to escape, Stealth or he can attack by long distance.
I voted for the balance is fine as it is now.
I think you take the PPU out of the mix and all classes are pretty balanced. But I am here to play the game not get all mathematical.
I played a full PPU in NC1 from Beta and I got to say it was a bitch to level. No one cared about PPU's they were all trying to be "uber" and constantly went to fight without a PPU. Then when I would hook up with a good team, I got crap for $$$ because I couldn't loot.
When some PVP action would happen, and we would win, all the tanks would talk about how it was their "uberness" that was the determining factor. These are the same tanks I threw protects and heals on during the fight...
I think people say "imbalance" anytime they get their uber clocks knocked off by a tank and a PPU. PPU is a bitch to level. You have to really want it to do it, but some guys just LOM their APU and suddenly they are PPU then in a battle, they lose half their squad, heh heh
As far as gameplay goes, I think they are pretty balanced, but I am no mathmetician to be sure. The purpose of this thread is pretty obvious, someone wants another NERF.
Sorry, but it is so clear... Someone had to say it...
PE, Tank, Spy & APU (and Hybrid PSI) are at least in the right ballpark compared to each other.
The odd man out is the PPU. It's capabilities are just too far outside the `curve` of all other characters capabiities.
The Holy Heal being the most obvious example.
The effects are far reaching because it means that *everything* in the gameworld has to be scaled to the PPU's level. It's the classic example of an arms race in a runaway state.
The PPU should give a team a competetive advantage - it shouldn't be absolutely mandatory.
Note, however, that I'm not simply calling for a typical all-out sledgehammer KK nerf ... the PPUs need a form of compensation in other areas if their prime strength is modified ... easier levelling/faster XP gain/easier equipment replacement etc.
The only solobalanced class is the APU.
QuantumDelta
18-10-04, 22:44
The only solobalanced class is the APU.
:lol:
Seriously though.
I don't see any balanced classes.
-=Dredduk=-
18-10-04, 22:51
Fire modded judge on APU w/ no ppu = dead APU
now come on when do you ever a see apu wondering around enemy turf on his own without ppu or who isnt a hybrid?
errrr no real skill?
they can use the same rifles/pistols as a spy, they got more RC/PC than a spy at dex 80.. they CON is just as good as a Tanks CON.
PEs can use explosive ammo. Dood with holy S/D on a PE and some drugs its PE > APU.
depends on the skills aswell
Slasher PE + tl3 heal > PPU
PE's are solo class's you hardly ever see them with ppu.
pes also are pritty crappy in every other skill except pistol.. and maybe rifle depending on setup.
tanks are balanced as i see... they can go either way depending on their and your setup.
:lol:
Seriously though.
I don't see any balanced classes.
A lone APU is pretty balanced, imo.
Extreme Damageoutput, No Defense at all.
Spies, having Stealth and Selfcast Shelter says it all.
PEs, well PEs are just plain shit.
MC-Tanks, bugged as hell and to high Damageoutput.
HC-Tanks, Having to aim and being semi-"paraed" with a weapon drawn is no Advantage.
PPUs, I won't even go there.
Edit:
Fire modded judge on APU w/ no ppu = dead APU
Make that an Xraymodded Judge and maybe, just maybe I'll agree.
Ozambabbaz
18-10-04, 23:28
...The purpose of this thread is pretty obvious, someone wants another NERF...
oh, rest assured i'd want monks nerfed, burned and banned :D
the subject of PvP in this game, is about winning.
the subject of OP wars is not, it's about OutMonking the opponent, it's _the_ way to win.
It's just those f*cking melee tanks and APUs
Clive tombstone
19-10-04, 00:12
Honestly, all I know is, when im playing my PE, i usually have a hunch that im gonna die whenever I encounter some form of monk or tank, because USUALLY the cercomstances are that its a close range fight, and as a rifle PE, that usually means "sucks to be me right now" but, really, Ive made a tank, there cool I enjoy them, with there big ass cannons and AOE abilities, and a spy too, too bad they get all the cool junk (give rifle PE's jet packs^^)and Ive made a monk before to, there fun to play as, there really the only class that gives this game the "FPS" feel to it you know^^,
Add a new pole hehe, give us cone of fire!
pointless rant over. end note, class balance=Inconclusive. :confused:
Theres one thing that annoys me. The tradeskillers.
Spys should be your average good tradeskillers who can construct and research your non rare weapons without a problem if you are not a combat char. Unfortunately capping a tradeskiller is a whole lot boring and more difficult than capping a combat character.
Now ReaKKtor seems to have noticed this and has been making this easier with new costruction and researching missions but I fear that its not enought. There are few things that can be done about this:
1) When you take a missions, make a choise if you want to look for a combat or non combat missions. Its really annoying to scroll through 5 pages of missions just to get one that suits you.
2) Raise the amount of XP gained from missions. This includes all missions, not just non combat ones.
3) Make some real difference in TL and Intelligence + Construction skill needet to make outstanding low level weapons. Now this is important. Its just ridiculous how much Intelligence and Construction skill you need to make an Outstanding Lazar pistol... It would also make the tradeskilling more interesting if you could make a newbie shoppe before you wont get any experience from making those newbie weapons :D
4) Raise the amount of money gained when selling weapons to shops. Now this is important too. You pay 3000cr to buy a Bad Unlabeled Pinfire Nailgun from a shop but you will gain only about 200cr when selling a Outstanding one :wtf: The combat characters can earn a lot of money by killing monsters, but construction characters can only hardly earn enought to buy the next tool they will be using.
5) Make the stats of the weapons change. Its boring to construct weapons with same stats over and over. If the stats would change accordingly to your skills it would be more interesting. Like, when you can make "normal" quality weapons, you sometimes make a weapon with good mechanism,so the recoil would be better. Or sometimes the stabily of the weapon aint the best but you managed to make a great barrel, so it would be harder to hit with the weapon but the damage would be increased.
Ofcourse when you are making "Better" or "Outstanding" quality weapons the difference between the weapons wouldnt be so great (around 2%) because then you know how to make the best possible barrel for the weapon and how to make it stabile.
Aww anyway Im too tired to write and Im going to sleep...
Asurmen Spec Op
19-10-04, 00:25
I really like PEs in my opinion
I like the diferent stats its the only class I see with 4 combat stats to really use
BUT If you dont like PEs, good for you. you can have your own opinion but i love em enough to have 4
anyway
My problem with PPUs is just they ruin the fun of PVPing. They make one charecter invincible then skill and weapons are outa the picture. In leveling I have nothing aginst but I dispise combat ppus.
PPUs and APUs are far enough to deserve to parts on the poll however
as you can see alot less people think PPU balanced the APU as I figured
so I wanted to see wich one brings the monk class's rep down so much
and thank you all again for not flaming I apreciate it
KRIMINAL99
19-10-04, 04:51
I put none of the classes are balanced.
In this game the average person probably isn't going to think in detail about weather the classes are balanced or not. Combat goes by so fast and twitch skill is so important that even if a class is 5 times as strong as another class the weaker class could still kill the other and perhaps even make it look easy. That doesn't mean that class isn't imbalanced. If the average person dies to a certain class 75% of the time they are probably going to tell themselves "well I suck I need to get better" or at most just subconsiously realize they have more fun playing the stronger class and play that instead. The fact that many people are recognizing that some of the classes are overpowered means those classes are GROSSLY overpowered.
The truth of the matter is the issue of balance should be MUCH more specific than just a superficial evaluation of weather the classes seemed balanced based on your win/loss ratio with that class. I mean like a very specific mathematical model which given the typical setting and typical players abilities, shows exactly who is going to win in each situation (apu after sniper on a hill, tank vs pe at close range, hidden droner vs pistol spy, etc). And then you make sure you don't have for example two classes that are supposed to be good at the same thing but one is 4x better than the other. And you also don't have things like two classes are the same combat strength in the same situations but one has 10x as many non combat abilities. And its also imbalanced to have classes that do good in 50 different combat situations while the rest only do good in one. There are so many different possible levels of imbalance.
It seems to me that KK has not done this.
Jesterthegreat
19-10-04, 11:20
all but PPU.
PPU is too important and too much of a deciding factor. its like all others are cannon fodder compared to the PPU.
Alienfreak
19-10-04, 13:38
PPU VS Hybrid, this is mostly a stalemate (i think), as both have good defenses, a hybrid has a chance to kill the PPU, but a PPU cant do enough damage to kill the hybrid (but can survive long enough to get away alive).
APU VS PPU; balanced fight, one side is full offensive, other full defensive could go either way.
PPU has his Soul Cluster.
And PPU wins every 1on1 without problems, only PPUs and probably Hybrids can stand against that.
PEs play mostly a secondary role and snipers are very good for support (long range fire) but not for fighting in close quarters.
PE is better for close combat ... especially with pistols.
Spy is for long distances ... and he can even withdraw with his stealth tool.
im not motivated to comment any other statements of you ...
Asurmen Spec Op
19-10-04, 17:28
I put none of the classes are balanced.
In this game the average person probably isn't going to think in detail about weather the classes are balanced or not. Combat goes by so fast and twitch skill is so important that even if a class is 5 times as strong as another class the weaker class could still kill the other and perhaps even make it look easy. That doesn't mean that class isn't imbalanced. If the average person dies to a certain class 75% of the time they are probably going to tell themselves "well I suck I need to get better" or at most just subconsiously realize they have more fun playing the stronger class and play that instead. The fact that many people are recognizing that some of the classes are overpowered means those classes are GROSSLY overpowered.
The truth of the matter is the issue of balance should be MUCH more specific than just a superficial evaluation of weather the classes seemed balanced based on your win/loss ratio with that class. I mean like a very specific mathematical model which given the typical setting and typical players abilities, shows exactly who is going to win in each situation (apu after sniper on a hill, tank vs pe at close range, hidden droner vs pistol spy, etc). And then you make sure you don't have for example two classes that are supposed to be good at the same thing but one is 4x better than the other. And you also don't have things like two classes are the same combat strength in the same situations but one has 10x as many non combat abilities. And its also imbalanced to have classes that do good in 50 different combat situations while the rest only do good in one. There are so many different possible levels of imbalance.
It seems to me that KK has not done this.
wow thats a very indepth post. Its true when I die to apu I dont say "damn that fucking apu imbalance blah blah swear blah" its "fuck i need to NF more"
Im just after the peoples opinions on what just feal impossible to PVP with/agaist thats why I dont like ppus ya I can kill em easy but its not really PVP to me fighting agiast some one with a ppu
thanks for that post tho, really got me thinking
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