View Full Version : Para-Module Damage Reasoning
A short & simple post worth discussion, I think.
Why do the para-modules cause *any* damage to a runner? A PPU killing a damage-boosted APU with a TL 8 Crahn Holy ParaShock Bolt seems a bit silly. It should be a stalemate in my opinion. Why isn't the *only* PPU damaging ability the Soulcluster? Again, in my opinion, Para* should cause paralysis and not do *any* damage at all.
Rhode Island is neither a road, nor an island. Converse.
So you are saying that because this spell does damage, a PPU will beat an APU in a duel every time? Just trying to understand your concern better.
Well if you stay around a ppu long enough to be killed by a para then you deserve to die for trying to annoy that ppu
Well if you stay around a ppu long enough to be killed by a para then you deserve to die for trying to annoy that ppu
Exactly.
Anyone who dies to a PPU by Para shouldn't be PvPing at that stage in their NC career, lol.
Just for clarification, I've not died to a PPU myself, but I've seen it happen to spies and APUs. A spy gets holy para'd, then the true sight goes up, and then the low TL para comes out. Same thing with an APU. If the PPU throws on a Holy Heal and then starts spamming on a Damage Boosted target, it can sometimes be up to -20 a hit. You can probably TL 3 heal out of it, but an APU's medkit won't work faster than the para. So basically a Spy can fire clip after clip of any gun and it shouldn't do jack to the PPU, just as any PPU should outheal Holy Lightning hits.
It's just a topic that I've often thought about. I'm not starting some avid movement :p Just wondered what other people thought. And one more thing, the point of the thread is why does para deal damage, not a question of PvP skills. A PPU just isn't supposed to be a damage dealer, imho.
its used to work like that FN but i don't know how long u've been away but para bolt does like 2-5 dmg to a dmg boosted apu/spy now and is pointless its a lot easier taking a xstrong and a melee boost and using a claw or sword
Yeap, a n00b takes out the LE, and a PPU comes and para's him. Low ATL and AGL, and the para keeping him at bay = one dead character.
Damage should go.
Hell, para itself should go, but that's another discussion.
Hell, para itself should go, but that's another discussion.
Agreed, and let's please leave that outta here ;) But I'm probably one of three people who really doesn't mind Para*. It's the fact that it actually takes HP that boggles my mind. I always felt it should be like Damage Boost. Cast -> Effect Hits Target -> Timer Starts. No damage dealt *shrug*
If it didn't do a little damage it wouldn't hurt the PPU's soullight when he ganks or assists gankage with it.
I don't think the apu's and spies were playing very smart. I've seen some apus take down solo ppu's left and right, or at least be so damn persisitent with an antibuff and HL, that the ppu has no time to pull out a parashock spell. Spies, well, sure they can't antibuff, but if you die to the ppu you suck. TSS takes time to cast, if the spy can't get some distance between himself and the ppu then i can't have much sympathy and above all, a spy with a decent heal spell can heal enough to run and get away.
The only reason I can think of that it does damage is to make a ppu respondsible(sp) for their actions. If the help or kill a runner using para and it does damage then their soullight/symps are marked same as the killers if that runner dies.
Thats my thinking anyway.
The para damage was originally put in the game to enable PPUs to complete epic runs. (by killing the nominated targets)
*shrug*
It's another case of KK chucking in a mad `fix` from way out in left field with little evidence of any rational reasoning.
It totally sidesteps the real issue and fucks the situation up further by bringing into play balance issues that any sane toddler could have forseen,
given 15 seconds of thought.
Well if you stay around a ppu long enough to be killed by a para then you deserve to die for trying to annoy that ppu
Yeah, because it's so easy to run away when you're being paraspammed, isn't it? :rolleyes:
Would taking damage away from Para~ hinder the soloing abilities of a PPU maybe? (not rhetorical; I'm still noob and just guessing)
Just playing Devil's Advocate to the posts so far:
So why couldn't PPUs complete Epics with a Soulcluster? I used to hunt with mine. Damage Boost, Spermy the Soulcluster, and my best Melee Weapon made for a slow, but somewhat amusing hunting session now and then.
I do see the Soullight factor being a decent reason however, thanks for that point of view. It would be just as simple for a PPU to restrain from using any Para if he had a damage dealer though. If a PPU kills a runner solo, he'll take an SL hit whether he did it via para* or his SC. So the question remaining would be how to accordingly make a PPU responsible for kills he was part of, be it damage boost or whatever.
Maybe PPUs shouldn't get such a drastic SL hit due to the number of high-priced modules they have to carry around? Again, Devil's Advocate :p
So why couldn't PPUs complete Epics with a Soulcluster? I used to hunt with mine. Damage Boost, Spermy the Soulcluster, and my best Melee Weapon made for a slow, but somewhat amusing hunting session now and then.
Because KK seemed incapable of making the code that attributed the kill to the PPU work correctly.
yeah as kurai says epic kills done with a sc never registered as a mission complete
KK seems to have a lot of trouble with pets in general.. soul clusters seem pretty inconsistent/buggy, and I shouldn't even mention the thread-derailing topic of drones. =/
With the epics and missions (sl/symp) kk realized that a purely passive class simply won't work. So the ppu got a soul cluster and parashock doing minimal damage. Which leads to ppu's becoming killers. I'll be the first to admit a good ppu was deadly. I killed Tanks, though admitedly they shouldn't have died if they were any good. But for really good Tanks I still fought them off to the point that they had to run away or die. APU's and Spies would die outright, Tanks took a while but will die eventualy. Only pe's were a challenge because they had a semi decent heal. I remember one duel lasted until I was physicaly exauhsted and finnaly I slipped up lettin the pe kill me : ) Anyway they nerfed para rof and damage, which reduced our ability to kill by a lot. Then they nerfed our last pvp tool, Holy Parabolt. Really we do the same damage to a boosted target as our fists do. It's actualy better to use fists since we don't burn up all our psi. If you die to a ppu now it's because you stayed around too long and underestimated the ppu. Scikar: I've had plenty of para'd enemies escape. Use drugs and it's not hard to run out of range of the sc. It's not like the ppu can chase you down, he's stuck to wherever his sc is floating around.
That's how kk works, instead of fixing the prolblem they hide it with a quick fix, which will eventualy show up later as a worse problem. I would love it if they removed our ability to damage entirely, but they created ppu missions and made the epic possible in a team, and gave us exp for ppu'ing. It's not gonna happen : (
Scikar: I've had plenty of para'd enemies escape. Use drugs and it's not hard to run out of range of the sc. It's not like the ppu can chase you down, he's stuck to wherever his sc is floating around.
I'm not saying it's impossible. However, some people like to think that PPUs only kill people with SCs and para when those people are trying to kill the PPU. If you don't slip up, a PPU can quite viably gank someone, especially if the victim isn't high level. Funny when you think about it, if anyone attacked me normally I'd just shoot back and fight it out. Yet if a PPU attacks you with para and SC, you're expected to just run away and that's fair?
I'm not saying it's impossible. However, some people like to think that PPUs only kill people with SCs and para when those people are trying to kill the PPU. If you don't slip up, a PPU can quite viably gank someone, especially if the victim isn't high level. Funny when you think about it, if anyone attacked me normally I'd just shoot back and fight it out. Yet if a PPU attacks you with para and SC, you're expected to just run away and that's fair?
The opposite isn't very fair either, Scikar. Before we had an offense, ppu's had no choice but to run away. Hey look at me, I'm a master at defense, time to run away! Not being able to kill anything and having to run away when you don't have anyone to help.. is prettty depressing.
If there was a way to deter people from attacking a ppu without killing them I'd be all for it.
Boost the damage
Remove the para effect.
Much better idea if you ask me
The opposite isn't very fair either, Scikar. Before we had an offense, ppu's had no choice but to run away. Hey look at me, I'm a master at defense, time to run away! Not being able to kill anything and having to run away when you don't have anyone to help.. is prettty depressing.
If there was a way to deter people from attacking a ppu without killing them I'd be all for it.
Just because PPUs had it tough in the past is hardly a reason to screw everyone else in the present, is it? The easiest way to allow PPUs to deter people is to completely remove the hybrid class and just have blessed hybrids and APUs instead. Then there's no more trouble with balancing a class that has 'no offense'.
Boost the damage
Remove the para effect.
Much better idea if you ask me
Yeah.
That's called `APU`.
I think I've heard the term around somewhere before.
:rolleyes:
Just because PPUs had it tough in the past is hardly a reason to screw everyone else in the present, is it? The easiest way to allow PPUs to deter people is to completely remove the hybrid class and just have blessed hybrids and APUs instead. Then there's no more trouble with balancing a class that has 'no offense'.
You want to recreate the same conditions were we had it tough before, hence the point. And who is being screwed over now? The low/mid level players and the ones not smart enough to run away? Or the unlucky few that legitimatly get caught by a ppu.
Your solution is to remove ppu's? I think thats what you meant anyway.. That would do it, but I doubt kk is gonna remove somethign they invested so much time in and made an integral part of the game. Why do you think para hasn't been removed?
You want to recreate the same conditions were we had it tough before, hence the point. And who is being screwed over now? The low/mid level players and the ones not smart enough to run away? Or the unlucky few that legitimatly get caught by a ppu.
Your solution is to remove ppu's? I think thats what you meant anyway.. That would do it, but I doubt kk is gonna remove somethign they invested so much time in and made an integral part of the game. Why do you think para hasn't been removed?
I don't want anyone screwed - otherwise it's no fun. I'm through with campaigning for nothing though, hence the cancelled account.
Yes, my solution is to remove PPUs. Ever since they were first conceived they have been unbalanced. First they are useless and weak. Then they're a cool thing boost but uncommon. Now they dictate all combat and are a requirement for practically everything at higher levels except duels. Clearly nobody knows what PPUs should be doing and nobody knows how to balance them - so scrap the whole idea.
Just because PPUs had it tough in the past is hardly a reason to screw everyone else in the present, is it? The easiest way to allow PPUs to deter people is to completely remove the hybrid class and just have blessed hybrids and APUs instead. Then there's no more trouble with balancing a class that has 'no offense'.I'd go in a slightly different direction ...
Remove all benefit from `pure` setups making hybrid the only viable choice. Then balance the spell levels accordingly.
The whole NC framework is hugely messed up by having to scale everything in the world to the extremes of pure monk capabilities.
It's just never going to work, no matter how long KK insist on burying their heads in the sand and ignoring it, or slap half hearted "missing the point" fixes on stuff.
I'd go in a slightly different direction ...
Remove all benefit from `pure` setups making hybrid the only viable choice. Then balance the spell levels accordingly.
The whole NC framework is hugely messed up by having to scale everything in the world to the extremes of pure monk capabilities.
It's just never going to work, no matter how long KK insist on burying their heads in the sand and ignoring it, or slap half hearted "missing the point" fixes on stuff.
I like the two extremes just like yin and yang, good and evil.
Praetorian
12-10-04, 05:32
Well...
For one thing, I like the fact that the pare does damage, so the PPU cant just run around making an ass of himself parashocking and then damage boosting people out hunting for an example... If they die to the mobs, he gets a SL hit. Fair enough in my oppinion...
Besides, as stated earlier, a PPU with a melee weapon is more of a concern than the fact he does a little damage with the parashock. And if we consider it, being shocked (electrified) should damage you, shouldnt it? :)
And yes, everyone should be carrying drugs to escape a parashock if their smart. So unless its a group taking you down, that should get you to safety from the PPU without too much trouble.
I like the two extremes just like yin and yang, good and evil.That would work only if NC consisted of nothing but APUs and PPUs.
It doesn't.
Specialised monks *might* work if KK would bring in the two extremes closer to centre - the PPU especially is *so* far outside the median bounds of all the other character classes' attributes that everything in the NC world has to be skewed to compensate for that currently.
However - KK seem to have adopted the current monk system as a fundamental dogmatic doctrine and will do almost *anything* rather than address the issue directly.
Therefore we are left with them bull-headedly trying to force the game mechanics to fit around the pure monk issue, no matter the cost/impact to the rest of the system.
Yeah.
That's called `APU`.
I think I've heard the term around somewhere before.
:rolleyes:
:D :rolleyes: :D
It a better idea though. Para needs a removal :)
Para needs a removal :)That we agree on :D
I was killed the one day with my h-c tank, just running around here and there, then a duo with melee tank (with paw of bear, must have been a noob, nobody PvPs with pob) and ppu came and ganked me, well atleast the ppu did, I'm not sure if the tank was just a diversion or something, should I have just stood there raving away plasma to the ppu for shooting me with his para, and the annoying insect called tank would have killed me in let's say, two days after the attack. It was the ppus para that did the killing and there is no resist against it.
KK implement psi resist goddammit, it has been missing for THREE YEARS!!!
I have heard that it was working in early closed beta of neocron, and it supposedly nerfed the psi damage like hell, it was in the days of hybrids, now I wouldn't mind if there were hybrids (remove mst) and bring in psi resist that helps against para and all psi damage (not the element itself, we have resists for those).
I wish I had resist for KKs incompetence.
Jesterthegreat
12-10-04, 08:20
Yeap, a n00b takes out the LE, and a PPU comes and para's him. Low ATL and AGL, and the para keeping him at bay = one dead character.
Damage should go.
Hell, para itself should go, but that's another discussion.
agreed 100%
I didn't realize this was such an intense topic. 8|
I didn't realize this was such an intense topic. 8|lol :lol:
Don't worry about it ...
This (and related issues) have been an endless source of argument here from the day they were coded.
It's pretty much the Neocron equivalent of a `Holy War[tm]` in the same sort of way `Windows vs Linux` is :D
KRIMINAL99
12-10-04, 16:08
All monks are incredibly lame in my opinion. APU does on average between 2 and 3 times as much damage as every other class AND they don't have to aim their weapons before firing they just run around shooting people instantly like they were playing quake. PPU takes like 4 times as much damage to kill as the next good defensive class AND they can outheal most damage.
The PPU hybrids, as much as people complain about them, still can do almost the same damage as every other class (about 1.5 times other classes damage with damage boost) AND have instant aim AND about 2x the defense of the next best defense class AND can heal really well (although perhaps not outheal damage)
APU's are incredibly annoying in leveling areas, they spam barrels everywhere and expect everyone else to get out of the way, they need to go through like 5 times as many mobs to get the same xp which means they are constantly kill stealing, they have an unfair advantage in looting rights etc. PPU's are very reluctant to hang around anyone but an APU because theyre the only ones with ranks high enough to give them XP and damage high enough to overcome the monk level speed handicap. PPU's completely ruin pvp for the average player making them and their teammates immune to anyone who doesn't have one nearby. Both classes have lots of abillities that other classes don't have.
The argument that monks take longer to level so its ok is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Thats a whole different arena that has nothing to do with their PVP and PVE strengths and weaknesses. Once the monks cap this becomes irrelevant and it doesn't matter how long it took them to level, you just have a grossly overpowered class that ruins the game for everyone else, and long before that they are still rediculously overpowered compared to capped characters of other classes.
IMO Just delete monks from the game. What the heck are dudes arbitrarily shooting fireballs and lightning bolts from their hands doing in a Sci Fi game anyways? If not then some serious rebalancing needs to be done, and not on a "I think this SEEMS fair" type of reckoning that KK has been using. I mean on a "This character lasts 2.3 seconds longer in this situation but less in this situation assuming the same skill level etc" precise mathematical real world model type of reckoning.
Jesterthegreat
12-10-04, 16:15
All monks are incredibly lame in my opinion. APU does on average between 2 and 3 times as much damage as every other class AND they don't have to aim their weapons before firing they just run around shooting people instantly like they were playing quake. PPU takes like 4 times as much damage to kill as the next good defensive class AND they can outheal most damage.
The PPU hybrids, as much as people complain about them, still can do almost the same damage as every other class (about 1.5 times other classes damage with damage boost) AND have instant aim AND about 2x the defense of the next best defense class AND can heal really well (although perhaps not outheal damage)
APU's are incredibly annoying in leveling areas, they spam barrels everywhere and expect everyone else to get out of the way, they need to go through like 5 times as many mobs to get the same xp which means they are constantly kill stealing, they have an unfair advantage in looting rights etc. PPU's are very reluctant to hang around anyone but an APU because theyre the only ones with ranks high enough to give them XP and damage high enough to overcome the monk level speed handicap. PPU's completely ruin pvp for the average player making them and their teammates immune to anyone who doesn't have one nearby. Both classes have lots of abillities that other classes don't have.
The argument that monks take longer to level so its ok is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Thats a whole different arena that has nothing to do with their PVP and PVE strengths and weaknesses. Once the monks cap this becomes irrelevant and it doesn't matter how long it took them to level, you just have a grossly overpowered class that ruins the game for everyone else, and long before that they are still rediculously overpowered compared to capped characters of other classes.
IMO Just delete monks from the game. What the heck are dudes arbitrarily shooting fireballs and lightning bolts from their hands doing in a Sci Fi game anyways? If not then some serious rebalancing needs to be done, and not on a "I think this SEEMS fair" type of reckoning that KK has been using. I mean on a "This character lasts 2.3 seconds longer in this situation but less in this situation assuming the same skill level etc" precise mathematical real world model type of reckoning.
agreed 100%
i have 2 monks on my account... i have these because they are so stupidly overpowered. i hate monks. they have no place in a cyber punk world and they have done nothing but throw the balance of the game (PPU's vital for big PvP / op wars, APU almost as vital, stupid damage dealing / taking abilities... they just dont fit with the rest of the game
Ah yes, first we remove ppus, then remove all pures, then remove all monks. Then we get rid of spies because they can stealth and do stupid things like not die. But I guess we do need to keep the tradeskillers around, so maybe spies can only do non combat roles. Keep them at home making weapons for us. Oh then we can just toss pe's out the door cause they're useless and smell funny. Then we can start having fun, everyone's a Tank, except for the masochistic tradeskillers who stay in their apts building stuff for us. Alright!
Alright I guess I'll be serious now, Kriminal:
1) Before monks became dominant, Tanks were the most annoying class ever. Your typical tank would run into a hunting area and mindlessly shoot away with mal or db, doing just as much friendly fire as any monk is capable of.
2) Just as annoying as the aoe moron is the pistol/melee prick who runs right up next to the mob and strafes around it. Then suprise, they die to friendly fire and get mad.
3) Your complaints about apu's damage and lack of aiming neglect to mention how the apu has paper thin defense and will die unless they get the jump on you. If you're refering to them in a team with a ppu, well a ppu can make anyone into superman.
4) There is a big debate wether endgame abilities should be dependant on how much work you put into getting there. Some say that everyone should be equal in the end, others say that those that work harder should be rewarded by being stronger. What I will tell you is that a balance needs to be maintained. If you put in tons of work into the game and end up only the same as someone else who put in a fraction as someone else.. well you're not gonna be happy. PPU's are the hardest to level, are the most expensive to equip, risk the most when they die, and are plagued by more problems then anyone except maybe tradeskillers and droners. If you want to make us all equal in the end, that's fine.. but first make the work we do to get there equal. ie it should be just as easy to cap a ppu as a pe as a spy as a tank.
5) I don't know why people keep trying to act as if Monks and Psionics have no place in a cyberpunk world, or even in scifi as you put it. If you'd like I can explain it again. Monks are an divergent branch of evolution from your typical Human, due to isolation and radiation. The powers of the mind have been a long disputed semi science, sometimes a joke, sometimes the topic of serious scientific work. There's no doubt that the human brain and even the body in general do create electricity. It's not too far a stretch to imagine that some might be born with the ability to more finely control these electric impulses. Due to rapid mutation from the radiation and environmental pressure, these abilities were favorable. That's all a Monk is, a psionic specialist. We manipulate energy with our minds. The Glove focuses our power/enhances it, and Psi Modules give our energy form. I don't know how you can think that's not sci fi? Maybe you got used to calling them "spells" and thinking of Monks as "mages" or "wizards" or other fantasy based stuff. There's a quote that goes something like "Technology sufficiently advanced compared to ours would seem just like magic to us." So then shall we get rid of hover's, because that's too much like magic flying. You could also say Tanks are too much like warriors and so should be removed also.
Jesterthegreat
12-10-04, 17:18
all im gonna post in reply to that is that tankocron was the most fun i have ever had in NC... ad for the record i was a pistol spy at the time
Hmm.. just deleting entire classes seems like a poor solution.
It seems like all that is really needed is some further balancing? I haven't reached the end game, so I can't say what my actual recommendations would be, but, for example:
(1) Reduce dmg on APU spells by x%
(2) Reduce dmg on para~ by x%
(3) Shorten duration or lessen extent of para~ effect
(4) Decrease by x% the amount of defense that deflect/shelter spells add
(5) Softcap defensive abilities so that, after a certain point, adding more resistence via buffs does not provide as much benefit
(6) Make it so that PPU-cast buffs like Shelter flag them for potential soulight hits as well
(7) Make it so that a PPU gains some exp for healing/buffing his party
etc.
Honestly, at this point (xx/42 for me), the classes seem fairly balanced. However, I haven't had much experience with PPU's (friend or foe). Spy seems gimped to me at this level, but I also realize that getting my first Stealth module will change my playstyle and abilities, so I don't consider that a problem yet.
AND have instant aim
Huh??? How?
I don't see the need for damage coming from the Parashocks. Plus just before Neocron 1 ended I found a much easier way to kill using a PPU...4 spies were unlucky enough to fall to it in the space of 2 days, but after that we stopped Op warring.
Edit - Sci don't go! Well, actually, do what I'm doing, and wait for 3 months to see if KK can rescue the mess they've set sail in, then decide.
im not going to bother reading all the above, if it were small posts then maybe, but all those books that got written...
a parashock is an intense electrical shock going through your body causing your muscles to spasm making it hard to move
now considering that
how can it be healthy?
its not ... hence ... damaging :rolleyes:
I think what everyone failed to read in this thread is that the newb parashock spell now does 2-5 dmg. Has anyone tried a 2slot Str1 knuckles lately? It does 10-15 dmg, now tell me, why would anyone spam newb parashock over that?
Edit - Sci don't go! Well, actually, do what I'm doing, and wait for 3 months to see if KK can rescue the mess they've set sail in, then decide.
It's been a year and balance centering around monks is still screwed. I'm not prepared to wait any longer and I'm sick of debating solutions which are completely ignored. I won't be able to play much in my first year here at uni so it's simply not worth it any more. I'll be around on the forums for one last try before my account time runs out, after that I won't be back without major changes, but those are listed in my leaving post.
@Above: Str1 Knuckles do not deal 10-15 damage to anything except roaches.
@Above: Str1 Knuckles do not deal 10-15 damage to anything except roaches.
That may be, but my fists alone do more damage then parashock does. I made a noob to kill because of the warped faction system, I needed to somehow get 40 symp without being able to do missions. Anyway, damage boosted I was doing more damage with my fists then parashock or holy parabolt could do. You guys are barking up the wrong tree, parashock's damage isn't a problem. The minimal damage it does do lets us kill rats for eternity to do missions.
That may be, but my fists alone do more damage then parashock does. I made a noob to kill because of the warped faction system, I needed to somehow get 40 symp without being able to do missions. Anyway, damage boosted I was doing more damage with my fists then parashock or holy parabolt could do. You guys are barking up the wrong tree, parashock's damage isn't a problem. The minimal damage it does do lets us kill rats for eternity to do missions.I think it's reached the point that people will bark up any tree with parashock up it in the vague hope of eventually getting something done about it.
The para damage was originally put in the game to enable PPUs to complete epic runs. (by killing the nominated targets)
Wrong. I remember a time long long ago when monks were hybrids and we still had apu, epu and ppu. You were able to kill people with 2 to 3 parashock beam strikes. And I'm talking about more or less capped players ... (and yes, the damage was depending on resist setup + armor).
Anyway, the parashock stuff is, beside the soulclusters, the only thing which has an impact on the soullight and faction sympathies of a PPU, as you deal damage (even when it is not visible due to shelters, heals etc. on the "enemy").
Compared to NC1 the damage of parashocks has been reduced even more, at least on the parashock bolts.
Pulling the LE at low levels and then getting ganked by a PPU ... as if the other classes are NOT able to do the same (and that much much faster). Yeah, you cannot really run away, but alone the fact that you can try to run away makes the difference. Every other class doesn't even offer you the chance to run, because you are blasted into pieces before you do the first step. It's a newbie, afterall.
Personally I think this whole discussion is just useless, especially with the even more reduced damage compared to NC1. Maybe KK should change the damage of parashocks back to the way it was in beta4, then you _would_ have something to "discuss" about.
PS: "Oh I got killed by a PPU! They should be nerfed!" - You can get killed by tanks, PEs and spys, by APUs and by hybrids. But PPUs shouldn't be able to? How long does a PPU need to kill you? Ever tried that in NC2? My guess is, a soulcluster does more damage than the PPU can deal directly with parashock.
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