View Full Version : Community demands:
Due to this recent fuckupping.. which has gone way too long already.
There is few things i bet ppl would agrees with me:
1) I think everybody has already figured out that all the talking about new servers is total bullshit. You just changed Saturn to Terra.
2) There is a term ingame called "Get some skills". I suggest that KK starts firing the ones behind this crappy code. If shit like this happens - you gotta get some skills.
3) <addyourfavouriteranthere>
- Seriously, hire some new ppl to fix your code. And the new "improved" engine.. i'm using the fastes GFX-card there is on the markets, and still i get some lag spikes. whoppee.
QuantumDelta
06-10-04, 19:14
Due to this recent fuckupping.. which has gone way too long already.
There is few things i bet ppl would agrees with me:
1) I think everybody has already figured out that all the talking about new servers is total bullshit. You just changed Saturn to Terra.
2) There is a term ingame called "Get some skills". I suggest that KK starts firing the ones behind this crappy code. If shit like this happens - you gotta get some skills.
3) <addyourfavouriteranthere>
- Seriously, hire some new ppl to fix your code. And the new "improved" engine.. i'm using the fastes GFX-card there is on the markets, and still i get some lag spikes. whoppee.
All of this post makes me think one or two things, the main one being:
You really don't know much do you?
What Graphics Card are you talking about too, eh?
Producer, Range, Model, Please.
You really don't know much do you?
What Graphics Card are you talking about too, eh?
Producer, Range, Model, Please.
Well weren't there a promise that new servers will be running the nc2, but how the fuck we still had the same shit that was on saturn?
And im talking about Asus GF6800U.
database has nothing to do with server afaik
I find it strange that the same shit was happening on saturn...
QuantumDelta
06-10-04, 19:23
Apart from on Doom3, and, even on Doom3 if you bump all the settings high enough iirc (incl. AA/AF/AS), the XFX X800 XT PE is faster, it definately out mathed and out performed it in games outside Doom3, by an increasingly large margin the more you up the quality.
Sorry, You lose. :p
--
Anyways, most peeps know NC is allegeric to 'new' technology :|
Edit;
And yea, Server and Database are two seperate entities, however one works within another.
Like i would care?
GF > radeon. and this is opinion thinggy, you can't debate on that.
Servers and databases, BOTH ARE FUCKED.
KK doesn't just have the simple thing called SKILL to manage their servers.
If they would shit like this wouldn't happen.
Imagine this. how in the hell they brought 90% of only saturn bugs to Terra..........? by accendent? i bet they just added few things here and there and called it a new game and rised the price.
QuantumDelta
06-10-04, 19:28
I don't need to debate on it, it's wrong, simple as.
--
And, if you're going to make a claim like it's the fastest on the market, and, shelled out that much cash for it, you probably should care :p
@ Your edit.
Again, it's people like you who made them stop posting early 2003 :rolleyes:
Second Edit;
If you feel you need something done so badly, and that there is such a problem, why do you not constructively write up some suggestions, unless you have no real suggestions, in which case, as you so deftly put in your poll: Stfu.
well if ur misc vendors radeon is faster, then i'll just overclock mine. simple, over and out. pffffff.. soz.. just need to let out some fucking steam.
Pissing me out to start doing epics again.
QuantumDelta
06-10-04, 19:32
Asus = Misc Vendor.
And XFX Cards can overclock too.
Err....unless they're a XFX GF6800U :| (for some reason doesn't overclock as high as I'd like).
Anyways, take a breather and try find some suggestions at the end of the day it's a game and if you're just gonna get wound up over it, it defeats the point of it being a game, doesn't it?
meh...
Gotterdammerung
06-10-04, 19:33
if you two want to keep having a tit-for-tat go at each other please take it to pm's
if you two want to keep having a tit-for-tat go at each other please take it to pm's
Well for that i'd have to say. Push the coders at KK HQ to work much more, or KK to hire much more skilled coders.
Eventually shitting ppl like this, will lead to that ppl start to leave, and who will pay their salaries then? I bet MJS isn't going to sell his golder rolex to pay some poor g33ks salary..
dont they have like one coder? im sure he is under alot of pressure right now so give him a break. would be sucky to try to help the community by getting item tracking working then have it totaly mess up tons of stuff people have done.
NS_CHROME54
06-10-04, 19:43
well tiikeri, if it all bothers you that much, do us all a favour, and make this a leaving thread. mindless ranting doesn't help.
well tiikeri, if it all bothers you that much, do us all a favour, and make this a leaving thread. mindless ranting doesn't help.
You know what? just not to let you have that pleasure, no i'm not going to do that. i'll keep whining and whining until u crack.
@Tera:
Seriously, hire some new ppl to fix your code.
Isn't that saying that they should hire more coders to help that poor fella whos doing work for 24/7 and still peeps give him spanking.
plz dont call me tera :rolleyes:
and i missed the part where you said that sry.
NS_CHROME54
06-10-04, 19:56
You know what? just not to let you have that pleasure, no i'm not going to do that. i'll keep whining and whining until u crack.
lol
don't go fishing today tiik, you won't catch anything.
@tiikeri: If you know anything about c++, you know you cant just "fix" the code and make everything work. If you know how to code c++, try to make a simple calculator for Windows. I dont mean any so-fucking-easy-that-everyone-can-do-it MS-DOS calculator, just make a simple calculator what uses Windows environment (get Microsoft Visual C++ program somewhere).
Sounds easy? Ok start doing it...
...Is the calculator ready? Ok how many pages of code do you have just for a simple calculator? 10+ ? Ok now try to build it.
You got errors? How many? 30? Ok now just find the errors from the 10 pages of code and fix them.
You fixed them? Build it again. What, you fixed the errors and at the same time you created 20 new ones?
Now see how long did that take. 3 days? Damn you were fast. Now imagine a game, how many pages of code would that have. Your simple calculator just had 10+...
You see what I mean?
Oh and BTW, Osoita nyt edes vähän kunnon suomalaista asennetta :p
NS_CHROME54
06-10-04, 20:12
@tiikeri: If you know anything about c++, you know you cant just "fix" the code and make everything work. If you know how to code c++, try to make a simple calculator for Windows. I dont mean any so-fucking-easy-that-everyone-can-do-it MS-DOS calculator, just make a simple calculator what uses Windows environment (get Microsoft Visual C++ program somewhere).
Sounds easy? Ok start doing it...
...Is the calculator ready? Ok how many pages of code do you have just for a simple calculator? 10+ ? Ok now try to build it.
You got errors? How many? 30? Ok now just find the errors from the 10 pages of code and fix them.
You fixed them? Build it again. What, you fixed the errors and at the same time you created 20 new ones?
Now see how long did that take. 3 days? Damn you were fast. Now imagine a game, how many pages of code would that have. Your simple calculator just had 10+...
You see what I mean?
Oh and BTW, Osoita nyt edes vähän kunnon suomalaista asennetta :p
owned tbh
(i won't even ask what that last line means)
I have coded (Perl/c++ i.e.) .. Fewyears ago me and few my buddies made a game that was MB:s game of the week :) But i find it boring.
But everything made by human can be fixed by another human, yea i know how shitty is it to try searching the possible missing ; or missing string etcetc. :)
And in the end.. Ja vitut.. eikös meillä ole tapana kitistä jos joku ei ole kohdallaan ;) Kyllä mä haluan rahalleni vastinetta - Ja eikös asiakas ole aina oikeassa ;)
@chrome: Rofl who owned who.
It's not a case of a missing ; that's easy to find, and the code won't compile without it. Syntactical bugs are easy to fix. It's the logical errors in the code that can be a real pisser to find, and it's often as much down to luck as being a good coder. Of course a rigourously defined code definition in something like Z helps no end...but takes about 10x as long to write as the code itself.
NS_CHROME54
06-10-04, 20:22
i believe the point was: if you want it done the way you want it, go do it yourself. if your such hot shit, take your hand at it.
and btw tiik, it seems more ppl voted "no" in your poll...
read: I find it boring.
In other words, not my thing. I don't have the intress of sitting in a bench just watching some code. I want to do stuff with my hands, interact with ppl etcetc.. like RL u know?
(+ i don't have the nerves, short fuse)
Edit: and how many of those 5 who voted No, is not from Saturn?
All? imo, you would be pissed too if you would have to take this shit again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again ... you get the pattern?
Did you hear the moaning what started when pluto players first saw the ev1l mission bug from Saturn.....................
(Warning - Finnish)
@tiikeri: Asiakas on aina oikeassa mutta tuotteen valmistajalla ei ole mitään velvollisuuksia kuunnella asiakasta :) Saahan se asiakas kitistä suljetun kaupan oven ulkopuolella vaikka kuinka eikä kauppiaan sitä ovea tarvitse mennä avaamaan.
Toisin sanoen eikös se ole jo huomattu että täällä ei vinkuminen pahemmin auta :D
Ja niinkuin tuo yksi sanoikin, eihän ne puuttuvat merkit vaikeita ole korjata, niistähän builderi vinkuu ja inisee. Logiikka virheistä builderi taas ei tajua yhtään mitään ja niitä on perkeleen hankala alkaa korjaamaan, ja veikkaisin että tässä pelissä on kahden vuoden kehittelyn aikana tullut enemmän logiikka virheitä koodiin kun kukaan pystyy laskemaan :lol:
Enkä siitä vinkumisesta sen pahemmin tiedä, itse en sitä ainakaan pahemmin harrasta koska mitään hyötyä siitä ei vielä tämän pelin kehitykseen ole ollut :rolleyes:
(End of Warning)
NS_CHROME54
06-10-04, 20:32
read: I find it boring.
might want to say "i find programming boring" instead in your original comment, as what you wrote suggests you find the game you made boring.
i agree with your point that most people don't have the patience to be programmers. now look at codi. the guy spends like 12+ hours a day working code. sure it isn't perfect, but it aint bad. he's 1 man creating every single line of code for a game, they didn't divide all the work up between more people, charging one guy with openGL programming (well, dx in this case), giving 1 guy the net code, 1 guy the database interactions, 1 guy the AI... 1 guy does all of that here.
vous etes etranges, vous deux.
damn mac keyboard.
no johonkin se vitutus on purettava :) ja sitä pitää menna jatkamaan töihin.
Ja onhan se vinkuminen auttanu moneenkin asiaan. Mut kyl KK vetää tän homman niin päin perseitä ku olla ja voi, paljon lupauksia ja toteutus prosentti aika matala. Palkkaisivat oikeesti lisää koodereita kun ei tosta hommasta tahdo tulla mitään. Tai no. Paskahan se on ruveta jo valmiiks paskaa koodia ruveta fiksaamaan jollain patcheilla.. en kyl mistään hinnasta rupeis siihen. Varsinkaan kun on koodaus innot haihtunu jo aikoi sitten taivaan tuuliin..
:eek:
QD got told off by a mod!
WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE! IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD! 0HN0Z!!!!!!!!
Back on topic:
I agree with QD, in that:
ATI > Nvidia, and KK = doing a great job :p
The other servers prolly get just as much shit as we do. We just don't read their forums :rolleyes:
I really hope that gigz.. but i have my doubts that german servers have any of these probs we've had.
I really hope that gigz.. but i have my doubts that german servers have any of these probs we've had.
*sigh* Even if they did it wouldn't solve any of the problems.
(OT: what's wrong with ventrilo?)
Apart from on Doom3, and, even on Doom3 if you bump all the settings high enough iirc (incl. AA/AF/AS), the XFX X800 XT PE is faster, it definately out mathed and out performed it in games outside Doom3, by an increasingly large margin the more you up the quality.
Sorry, You lose. :p
--
Anyways, most peeps know NC is allegeric to 'new' technology :|
Edit;
And yea, Server and Database are two seperate entities, however one works within another.
not that large a margin
http://www20.graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041004/index.html
check the call of duty marks :eek:
anyway my point is its swings and roundabouts and not just on doom3. but thats besides the point. any top end card should run nc without breaking a sweat, ok they improved tectures etc but its not a massive improvement
Also see :
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=18029
&
http://www20.graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040414/geforce_6800-27.html
NVidia are a long way ahead of anything ATI have now and the gap is set to get MUCH wider in the next year or two.
Even so - any top end card should be able to render NC-quality graphics without breaking a sweat.
Wohoo.. i'm getting atleast some support :) and even when i have already passed my steam out..
any top end card should run nc without breaking a sweat, ok they improved tectures etc but its not a massive improvement
Amen.
But for some reason, i still kinda "struggle" with it. I see ppl talking about over 100 FPS.. but my max so far has been like 80 (when theres no one around)
And i'm using 2,5Ghz XP, 1G 333mhz DDR, and GF6800U.. any ideas why i have so low FPS?
Edit: oh yeah.. and something concerning the topic.. umm.. HIRE MORE CODERS!! to help the already existing ones..
NS_CHROME54
07-10-04, 03:50
Amen.
But for some reason, i still kinda "struggle" with it. I see ppl talking about over 100 FPS.. but my max so far has been like 80 (when theres no one around)
And i'm using 2,5Ghz XP, 1G 333mhz DDR, and GF6800U.. any ideas why i have so low FPS?
i'm in the same boat. 3.2ghz, 1024mb 533mhz DDR2, X800, and my fps stays put at 76 no matter what i do (except in plaza).
and jernau. yes, nvidia has an advantage at the moment in the high end industry, but, while they're hampered by driver issues at the moment, benchmarks show that when they do run properly, the x700 series outclasses the gf6600 series by a pretty good bit, and that's what will keep ati alive and kkicking (mwahaha).
besides, nvidia has an advantage atm, not a big one, we're in exactly the same place we were with nvidia gf4 ti4600 and ati radeon 8500. things were pretty much deadlocked, as they are now (point in case, every vid card reviewer on the planet is still arguing over which card is better in current generation). then ati released the 9700, and it took nvidia a year to respond with the gf-fx series, and even after a year and a generation later, the 9700 still outclassed that series. now nvidia has taken a giant leap. it looked like the tables had turned. unlike nvidia however, ati didn't sit on it's ass and do nothing for a year, but they released a pretty damn good card soon after. sure it has no support for some things, but nothing is using them, and by the time someone does, the next generation of cards will be out on the market anyway.
as long as ati doesn't sit around with the R500 (they did unfortunately do this with the 9800, and that is why they aren't ahead anymore), and believe me they have plenty of incentive right now, they'll be able to match nvidia.
Well now, I picked a fine thread to do my debut post in didn't I?
Re: Coding
There is a saying:
"If you code as cleverly as you possibly can, you are then, by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
Think on that for a while.
Now, if there is really only one code jockey who's doing this game.... my hat is off to that man/woman. They are truly a code warrior.
And if you think making a game is so easy, I suggest you go try it. Myself? Been down that road, and you know... it isn't worth it most days when you see posts like this.
To pull off a project this size take a lot of things, not just code. The concept, design and a whole bunch of other things have to be sound and thought out well.
If you must vent, vent. But please don't be disrespectful.
I now go back to lurk mode.
@Chrome - the big problem for ATI atm is that they have backed all the wrong horses for the next generation (maybe even two generations). It's becoming more and more clear now that NVidia weren't sitting back while ATI had the lead in the high-end, they were getting their shit together in some style.
If ATI don't find a miracle rsn they are in very deep doo-doo. It was exactly this kind of poor planning (and distro probs) that killed off 3DFX. I'm not saying it's that bad for ATI as they still have their core low-end market to fall back on but it's not looking good for their top-end. What must be deeply scary for ATI right now is how much NForce is digging into their old "safe" markets.
That inquirer article covers most of the technical points so I won't re-iterate them but it's definitely worth reading if these things interest you.
@zeronode - There's more than one guy - generally there have been at least three at any time. Even with three though I think they do an amazing job in writing and maintaining the game. The disgrace IMO is that their stellar efforts are hidden under a mountain of poor management and design decisions they may or may not be a party to.
Now, Im not sure about this, but I dont think "hidden under a mountain of poor management and design decisions" is true.
I think the reason is more like following:
You remember Beta 4? Make a list of all the things that have changed after that. The list WILL be long (and dont you fucking dare say that nothing has changed). Now, Im 90% sure that the code the Neocron 2 uses now is basicly same that was in Beta 4. A lot of stuff has added and removed. The ideas has changed. Even the engine has changed.
Now in my point of view, they have done fucking awesome job. I couldnt have done the same. Changing and adding massive amount of stuff in the code aint a easy thing to do. They even added D9 support in the engine, the code cant remain same after that.
Blah off to get some coffee...
The bad decisions I referred to have little or nothing to do with the game code itself - they are things like the obsession with specialisation, the handling of the LE issue, the poor communication, the choice of critical technologies, the inconsistencies with the storyline and RP content, the entire DOY-BDOY-NC2 fiasco, the new item distribution system, the handling of faction relations, the re-use of assets, the prioritisation of tasks that led to neglecting huge areas of the game, the apparent lack of source control and bug-tracking, the procedural design failure of the test server, the ignoring of their own policies both internal and external when it suits them and many more I can't think of on only one cup of coffee ;). Some of these would have involved the coders but (in 99% of companies) they would not have the final say or ultimate control.
None of us can really say how things happened and are happening inside KK's office but we can draw conclusions from things we've seen and heard and some of us can see analogies with personal experiences.
KK are a small company and many of these issues are endemic in small companies but that doesn't excuse the fact that after so long we've seen none of these things properly addressed even after the fallout from internal problems has become public.
darknessfairy
07-10-04, 09:22
@ threadstarter, you really have NO IDEA how hard KK work do you? working from right in the start of the morning, til when they FEEL they should go home, there's no stop time. Could be as late as 6/7/8 in the evening.
KK are doing their best. You think you can do better? You go to hannover and you fix EVERYTHING. Until you can, and have done that, pls STFU
Jesterthegreat
07-10-04, 14:34
If you feel you need something done so badly, and that there is such a problem, why do you not constructively write up some suggestions, unless you have no real suggestions, in which case, as you so deftly put in your poll: Stfu.
well said... seems to be a moan thread with no real direction other than "fix it KK!!1!1!"
constructive suggestion may (prolly) get ignored... but "fix it" definatly will be.
Richard Slade
07-10-04, 14:38
Here's something fun to know:
It doesn't matter shit if NV or ATI is faster or better,
NV got all the support from all companies, ie ATI sucks major balls since no company hardly gives a flying fuck about them anyways.
Also I'd like to point out that the community demands alot,
however what the community NEEDS, is sex.
Nothing more, nothing less...
Serious relationships might get rid of all the wankers around here ;)
And
@Darkie, it's more than 6/7/8 at times... Rumor has it that some at KK never even went home some evenings during beta.
Also we know for a fact that some, Thanny I belive it was, was up at 3 in the morning when NC2 went retail to keep a look out at things...
That's what I call dedication and hard working, if threadstarter has another opinion I belive he needs to be ganked once or twice..
Jesterthegreat
07-10-04, 14:41
Here's something fun to know:
It doesn't matter shit if NV or ATI is faster or better,
NV got all the support from all companies, ie ATI sucks major balls since no company hardly gives a flying fuck about them anyways.
Also I'd like to point out that the community demands alot,
hoiwever what the community NEEDS, is sex.
Nothing more, nothing less...
Serious relationships might get rid of all the wankers around here ;)
*****
5 stars, for this post, not the thread :lol:
Well now, I picked a fine thread to do my debut post in didn't I?
Re: Coding
There is a saying:
"If you code as cleverly as you possibly can, you are then, by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
Think on that for a while.
Now, if there is really only one code jockey who's doing this game.... my hat is off to that man/woman. They are truly a code warrior.
And if you think making a game is so easy, I suggest you go try it. Myself? Been down that road, and you know... it isn't worth it most days when you see posts like this.
To pull off a project this size take a lot of things, not just code. The concept, design and a whole bunch of other things have to be sound and thought out well.
If you must vent, vent. But please don't be disrespectful.
I now go back to lurk mode.
fair enough, its an argument a few people have come out with "OMG!11 go code it yourselfes!!111" yet were i to purchase a new car, and it broke down continuously and ran like a bag of rusty spanners. would everyone then tell me "omg!!11 you learn how to build a car before complaining n00b" if i was to get upset at the fact?
i'm not denying they do an excellent job under the circumstances, however they are selling a product, if that product is flawed, people will complain about it. not only is it human nature, its usually how things are brought to the product manufacturers / producers attention. admittedly some people (myself included) could put things a little more sensibly at times. but a combo of frustration and anonymity often turns people into an arsehole they actually arent in the flesh.
and on that note..
OMFG!!111 KK FIX Teh DrOnEz!11111111
~King Diamond~
07-10-04, 18:25
[ edited ]
~King Diamond~
07-10-04, 18:41
[ edited ]
GG no RE there King
so far in your 7 posts ive seen nothing construtive posted, sure my previous post was spam/flame bait whatever, but ive not seen you post anything interesting or relevant yet.
so take your box of kleenex and take it else were
[ edited ]
and you dont have the wit to form a coherent argument. your point is?
GG no RE there King
so far in your 7 posts ive seen nothing construtive posted, sure my previous post was spam/flame bait whatever, but ive not seen you post anything interesting or relevant yet.
so take your box of kleenex and take it else were
just do as i did and report his posts. hopefully a warning from a mod will improve his posting. but i doubt it.
Nothing to do with the topic, but GIJOe, why do you have "feersum" written on a HellSing picture?
Nothing to do with the topic, but GIJOe, why do you have "feersum" written on a HellSing picture?
my tank is called FeeRsuM. i also play UT2k4 as [DOA]FeeRsuM.KFC
and hellsing is cool as fuck.
any more questions?
:p
oh and its spelled wrong i know, its taken from the book Feersum Endjinn by Iain M Banks
Please stay on topic and stop the flaming, trolling and spam.
V
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