OT-Hardware.

[QuantumDelta]

've been upgrading my system for a while, been taking it slowly bring it up to speed - not just the main stuff like graphics card / mobo / proc.

I've been upping my RAM Quality / HDD Quality and Sound Card Quality too.

The whole time I've been sitting 'behind' the front running tech, basically to avoid the stupidly high price tags.

Problem is, my system currently sits at:

AMD XP 3000+ (400 Mhz Ver).
K7 Triton Series Mobo, nForce 2 Chipset, 400 Mhz FSB.
2x512 MB PCI 3200 DDR RAM DIMMs set in a Dual Channel Config...
SB Audigy 2 ZS.
ATI Radeon Pro 9600.

--
You can tell what I left fixing 'til last.
The thing is;

I temporarily bought myself a FX 5200, which, quite frankly, is one of the worst cards I've ever encountered if you consider the tech band released in cards time.

So I bought a 9600 Pro.
Less problems, more reliable, better capabilities.

The card in itself is fine, but it's beginning (Doom 3 and CnC:G:ZH mainly), to show it's limitations now I have my new monitor and wanna run games in a higher rez.

....to that end, I'm looking at new cards.

I want to make the jump from high end budget to front line tech.

That can only mean one thing at this point:
X800 XT Plat.

I have really had enough of Nvidia cards, they've always been pretty harsh on my system, always been liabilities.
I've gone with them due to budget...
Heh, things even changed there with the 9600 Pro, since ATIs budget range started beating Nvidias.

---

So basically I'm after peoples oppinions.

NV6800U?
X800 XT Plat?

I've thought about waiting on PCIe/Dual SRI but I dunno...

Oppinions mofos :P

[[TgR]KILLER]

i'm getting a 6800 GT.. its good.. fine.. well.. fuck knows when its gonna be here.. site i orderd @ had 3/5 days delivery time and been pushing that so far back its 2 weeks ago and on the site it changed to delivery unexpected waiting on word from supplier lol.. the 6800 sold so fucking fast they can't keep up.

[Endar]

You have pretty much the same system as I do. Well I have 9800pro but the rest is the same o_O

I dont think you should buy a new vid card just yeat, wait for the PCIe. You should reconsider upgrading you HW at winter, ATI will prolly drop the X800 prices when they get PCIe out.

[Psycho_Soldier]

Get the NV6800 GT or Ultra, but wait for the PCI Express version, and upgrade your mobo.

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040809/doom3-02.html#enthusiast_high_quality

[alig]

That cpu will bottleneck any GF6/x800 graphics card to all hells end btw just so you know. My 2600+ running at 400mhzfsb/2.2 ghz (3200+ technically) seriously slows down my X800 pro card....i mean i cant even get a higher benchmark than people using 9800pro's and fast cpu's on UT2kX benchmark...so... :p

Anyway if i was you id forget about past times and nvidia because if i recall ATI was'nt to hot either...infact they wasnt even warm. Id get a 6800GT...not XT-PE or Pro or Ultra. The 6800GT can be easily overclocked to the ultra speeds..it runs the exact same components/ram timings/pipe lines as you should know, only clocked slower and does'nt have as adaquete cooling as the ultra either but thats nothing to an overclocker.

Get a 6800GT...it is the best card out and nvidia has on-par AA/AF to ati now.

As for PCI-e...you would need pretty much an entire new computer over again and they are intel based atm (well last time i checked they was still only intel based mobo's) and intels are shite nuff said about that.

As for dual SRI...well..its very nice but seriously wtf would you need 2 6800ultra/gt/standards running side by side for? even 2 standard 6800's would pretty much own any game for the next couple years max settings, max AA/AF. Of course this requires PCI-e too and i bet 2 slotted PCI-e mobo's certaintly wont come cheap, id say £150 at least just to be safe. Not to mention you'd need a good quality 700W+ PSU which wont be cheap either but if you've recently won the jackpot go for it and buy me one to. :)

[yavimaya]

So basically I'm after peoples oppinions.

NV6800U?
X800 XT Plat?

I've thought about waiting on PCIe/Dual SRI but I dunno...

Oppinions mofos :P

Well, many people will say get a 6800, many will say just get an x800, you have to make up your own mind. the 6800 may absolutely rock, i wouldnt be going for one of these 1st gen 6800's though, i'd wait to see how the XT, and the 512Mb versions fare.

Basically i say this because they are very expensive, but may not perform much better than an X800. which arent terribly awesome, i know as my friend has one, a pro bios modded to XT, extra pipes unlocked, but not hardware modded.
And my 5950U GT performs just about as well as it. its not quite there, and i did pay as much for mine, but i paid for the brandname, he didnt.

Basically the X800 is a nice card, the 6800 is too im sure, but after seeing how my card performs, they are very overhyped. Or maybe mine is just a good card.

P.s. if you go by 3dMark scores my card sucks compared to his, if you go by ingame FPS, its sometimes better, not often, usually only a little behind.


I kind of have to disagree with AliG, most of the 6800's ive seen around have been either shit brands (albatron) or have only been 128-bit. if you get a 128bit card, theres another you will want to throw out the window.... dont just jump into getting a GT. Sometimes waiting and paying more for the next version is a better idea: ram updrades (faster seek times), more support, better drivers already out.

[yavimaya]

That cpu will bottleneck any GF6/x800 graphics card to all hells end btw just so you know. My 2600+ running at 400mhzfsb/2.2 ghz (3200+ technically) seriously slows down my X800 pro card....i mean i cant even get a higher benchmark than people using 9800pro's and fast cpu's on UT2kX benchmark...so... :p

Anyway if i was you id forget about past times and nvidia because if i recall ATI was'nt to hot either...infact they wasnt even warm. Id get a 6800GT...not XT-PE or Pro or Ultra. The 6800GT can be easily overclocked to the ultra speeds..it runs the exact same components/ram timings/pipe lines as you should know, only clocked slower and does'nt have as adaquete cooling as the ultra either but thats nothing to an overclocker.

Get a 6800GT...it is the best card out and nvidia has on-par AA/AF to ati now.

As for PCI-e...you would need pretty much an entire new computer over again and they are intel based atm (well last time i checked they was still only intel based mobo's) and intels are shite nuff said about that.

As for dual SRI...well..its very nice but seriously wtf would you need 2 6800ultra/gt/standards running side by side for? even 2 standard 6800's would pretty much own any game for the next couple years max settings, max AA/AF. Of course this requires PCI-e too and i bet 2 slotted PCI-e mobo's certaintly wont come cheap, id say £150 at least just to be safe. Not to mention you'd need a good quality 700W+ PSU which wont be cheap either but if you've recently won the jackpot go for it and buy me one to. :)


Also theres the fact that you are meant to run the SRI at the same speed, so far PCI-e board have the first slot at 12X max, and 2nd slot at 8X max. :P
So you dont get full performance anyways.

[dark_reaper]

Get Serial ATA HDD see a huge diff in gameing and installing crap.

[-FN-]

Whoa... QD and I have like... the *exact* same machine 8|

AMD Athlon 3000+ (400MHz Bus)
2x512 Corsair XMS DDR400 in Dual Channel
DFI LanParty NFII Ultra (http://www.cluboverclocker.com/reviews/motherboards/dfi/LANPartyNFII/p2.htm) with SATA/RAID 0+1
On-Board 6-Channel Audio (I ditch an SB Live 5.1 for this which works fine)

Cept I still have my old GeForce3 Ti500.

So with NC2 coming Soon(TM) and a number of other titles being released in the near future, many people might be thinking of upgrading their video cards. I probably won't be until Christmas but the savvy shopper should get their knowledge in now so that when price drops on the "older gen" video cards, you know what's a good $100-$150 deal

I've started compiling a list of data that isn't really done yet, but it's a start. I use the specs of my GeForce3 Ti 500 so I can guage whether or not I'll truly get any decent improvement when I find a newer model card at an affordable price.

If anyone wants to fill in some holes or make corrections, GO FOR IT, but let me know so I can correct mine too :)

http://www.synergyxr.net/files/videocards.xls

[IceStorm]

Given ATI's problematic 4.x driver train on my 9800XT, their inability to ship X800XT cards in any volume, and nVidia's overwhemling dominance in Doom 3, I'd say get a 6800 GT or 6800 Ultra. I picked up a Gainward 6800 GT Golden Sample and I'm quite happy with it in Doom 3. Haven't tried overclocking it yet, but it doesn't use a reference design cooler - comes with twin fans mounted over the heatsinks.

If you can find an X800XT or X800XT PE and you think HL2's more important than Doom 3, go for it. Personally, I hope to see PCI Express 6800 GT cards ship before that happens. :-)

Also theres the fact that you are meant to run the SRI at the same speedFind me a doc that states SLI requires or is supposed to operate with cards that have the same PCI Express lane configuration.

nVidia's only test platform for SLI is a SuperMicro Xeon board or Iwill's VideoArray board (unless their promotional photos are completely falsified). Neither of the abovementioned boards provides identical lane speeds for each physical x16 PCI slot. x4 PCI Express is 1GB/sec full-duplex. That should be plenty for today's cards.

[-=9mm=-]

lol same system as QD again except I got an AIT radeon X800 Pro 256mb and so far I have to say its pretty awesome no problem running any games on max settings but one thing is the X800 dosnt work with neocron 8| or at least thats what tech support tell me dunno when it will be fixed.

[Mr_Snow]

Given ATI's problematic 4.x driver train on my 9800XT, their inability to ship X800XT cards in any volume, and nVidia's overwhemling dominance in Doom 3, I'd say get a 6800 GT or 6800 Ultra. I picked up a Gainward 6800 GT Golden Sample and I'm quite happy with it in Doom 3. Haven't tried overclocking it yet, but it doesn't use a reference design cooler - comes with twin fans mounted over the heatsinks.

If you can find an X800XT or X800XT PE and you think HL2's more important than Doom 3, go for it. Personally, I hope to see PCI Express 6800 GT cards ship before that happens. :-)
Find me a doc that states SLI requires or is supposed to operate with cards that have the same PCI Express lane configuration.

It's been the 6800 that hasnt been able to ship in the UK, x800's been available for quite a while now, with 6800's only coming into (limited) stock recently.

If you are looking for the best QD, go for a HIS Excalibur ATI Radeon X800 XT ICEQ II 256MB which will set you back a cool £380

Also, nvidia still isnt as good as ATI at AA/AF although they are getting better, and judging 6800/x800's on doom3s performance is silly as doom 3 was designed and optimised for nvidia

[Psycho_Soldier]

Also keep in mind the NV6800 GT and Ultra has Pixel Shaders 3.0 whereas no other card does not (including ATI).

[Ozambabbaz]

another distinct difference is the amount of games with "the way it's meant to be played" logo, now i am certified paranoid, but i swear nvidia is paying big bucks for NV optimization and no particular ati optimizatio.

most games i've played lately, people always bitch about their ati cards not performing well as opposed to ati.

[QuantumDelta]

Alig:

I intend to pick up a 64-59 when they come out ;)
The Socket 54 isn't what I'm lookin at atm, but I'm waiting to see what the improvements come out as.

Snow:
That is the actual card I've been lookin at, and, 380 is actually in my budget since I knew I wanted to make this jump :P

It's basically that or wait for the better cards coming out soon.
My only real problem is:
The industry has recently started shaking up and therefore buying anything now / in a couple of months will be 'dated' in terms of top end within a couple of months/weeks anyway o_O

Things look like they are continuing to speed up in the hardware world, my question is where's the software to push it?

...
Yea, Snows choice or holding on ... me go flip coin :p

Psycho:
FYI although 3.0 is only on the new Nvidia's, ATi produced a fun thing or two to do the same job ;p

[Celt]

Alig:

I intend to pick up a 64-59 when they come out ;)
The Socket 54 isn't what I'm lookin at atm, but I'm waiting to see what the improvements come out as.

Snow:
That is the actual card I've been lookin at, and, 380 is actually in my budget since I knew I wanted to make this jump :P

It's basically that or wait for the better cards coming out soon.
My only real problem is:
The industry has recently started shaking up and therefore buying anything now / in a couple of months will be 'dated' in terms of top end within a couple of months/weeks anyway o_O

Things look like they are continuing to speed up in the hardware world, my question is where's the software to push it?

...
Yea, Snows choice or holding on ... me go flip coin :p

Psycho:
FYI although 3.0 is only on the new Nvidia's, ATi produced a fun thing or two to do the same job ;pThe successor to the x800 is at least a year away, like 18months or more.

[Psycho_Soldier]

The successor to the x800 is at least a year away, like 18months or more.

18 months... not likely, im 99% sure it will be sooner.

[alig]

Also theres the fact that you are meant to run the SRI at the same speed, so far PCI-e board have the first slot at 12X max, and 2nd slot at 8X max. :P
So you dont get full performance anyways.

Then the fact that cards dont even use the bandwidth 8X "AGP" has yet. PCI-e is just a load of overhyped bollocks...its been proven they are no faster and in some cases slower.

So you think because they have less popular brands it makes them worse? And fyi a 6800GT isnt 128-bit and even if it was it still does'nt slow it down to being over 2 times the speed of the old cards so whats the problem?

Im quite certain your 5950 does'nt keep up with an X800pro nevermind a hardmodded XT flashed one.

Ive got an X800pro and your card cant play games at 1600x1200 max settings full AA/AF can it? didnt think so, my point exactly why the old cards are left in the dust vs the new ones. The only game i cant handle is doom3 but as thats pretty much Shrek-interactive im not arsed but still high settings 8X AF and 1280x1024 ress on doom3 at a constant 40 - 60 fps is not what id consider 'bad'.

Also the GF5 series is not a good buy. Valve have already stated they get unplayable FPS running HL2 in DX9.0 and have to revert to DX8.0


Also, nvidia still isnt as good as ATI at AA/AF although they are getting better, and judging 6800/x800's on doom3s performance is silly as doom 3 was designed and optimised for nvidia

Nah it was the other way. GF6 was optimised for doom3 because obviously nvidia KNOW that carmack makes pretty sweet engines that get used a damn lot in games and if their cards work better in it then they win. Note : its an openGL engine and ati suck at openGL. I also dont think carmack would of felt a great need to strongly optimise the game to make ati's shit openGL drivers work better after it was ATI that leaked doom3 alpha.

[Celt]

18 months... not likely, im 99% sure it will be sooner.9700pro came out in late 2002, 9800pro early-mid 2003, 9800XT autumn 2003, x800 april 2004

9700pro, 9800pro and 9800XT were all essentially the same core with slight tweaks, so while in 18months there may be an x900, it will likely just be an x800 with small modifications and clocked slightly higher.

[Psycho_Soldier]

9700pro came out in late 2002, 9800pro early-mid 2003, 9800XT autumn 2003, x800 april 2004

9700pro, 9800pro and 9800XT were all essentially the same core with slight tweaks, so while in 18months there may be an x900, it will likely just be an x800 with small modifications and clocked slightly higher.

Well the reason why I said what I did is because graphics technology is evolving much faster now. Computers within the next year will need to be able to handle Unreal 3 (not saying Unreal 3 will be out within the next year just that the system will most likely need to handle it), and they say the top of the line systems with PCI express and Duel Nvidia Geforce Ultra cards can barely even get 2-3 FPS on Unreal 3 on lowest settings.

[Celt]

Well the reason why I said what I did is because graphics technology is evolving much faster now. Computers within the next year will need to be able to handle Unreal 3 (not saying Unreal 3 will be out within the next year just that the system will most likely need to handle it), and they say the top of the line systems with PCI express and Duel Nvidia Geforce Ultra cards can barely even get 2-3 FPS on Unreal 3 on lowest settings.That's been an argument since GF1 DDR :)

[alig]

Well the reason why I said what I did is because graphics technology is evolving much faster now. Computers within the next year will need to be able to handle Unreal 3 (not saying Unreal 3 will be out within the next year just that the system will most likely need to handle it), and they say the top of the line systems with PCI express and Duel Nvidia Geforce Ultra cards can barely even get 2-3 FPS on Unreal 3 on lowest settings.

That aint true. The 6800ultra is the first card on the planet to get over 10 fps on the unreal3 engine at 1024 ressolution. It was originally tested with older hardware which sucks and the unreal3 engine is set to be finished sometime in 2005 but when the first game uses it god knows.

[StryfeX]

If you want PCI-e for AMD based systems, the soonest I think it will be coming out is probably Q1 2005, as nVidia plans to release their NForce 4 chipset (which will have PCI-e, no word on supporting SLI, but I bet it will be capable of doing so) in Winter 2004.

I'm currently saving up for a completely tricked out custom built PC which will use Socket 939 (FX CPU) and probably dual video cards in SLI mode as well.

Why the heck are you comparing a 5950 to an X800? That's just stupid, they aren't even the same generation of cards. The 5950 compares to the 9800 series and the 6800 compares to the X800 series. Either compare them correctly or don't do it at all.

--Stryfe

[alig]

Why the heck are you comparing a 5950 to an X800? That's just stupid, they aren't even the same generation of cards. The 5950 compares to the 9800 series and the 6800 compares to the X800 series. Either compare them correctly or don't do it at all.

--Stryfe

Read the whole post or dont read anything and certaintly dont comment me about it either.

[StryfeX]

Read the whole post or dont read anything and certaintly dont comment me about it either.I did read it. You're comparing his 5950 to your X800. *DUH* the X800 is going to get better performance than the 5950. As I said (and you said), it's an entirely different generation of card.

Anyway, where did you get your info about PCI-e being sometimes slower than PCI? Also, comparing the current PCI-e systems is a little bit one-sided as currently Intel is the only one making a PCI-e capable chipset (and as I'm sure you know, it's a workstation chipset). Other than nVidia, do you know if any other companies are going to be making PCI-e chipsets anytime soon?

--Stryfe

[alig]

I did read it. You're comparing his 5950 to your X800. *DUH* the X800 is going to get better performance than the 5950. As I said (and you said), it's an entirely different generation of card.

Anyway, where did you get your info about PCI-e being sometimes slower than PCI? Also, comparing the current PCI-e systems is a little bit one-sided as currently Intel is the only one making a PCI-e capable chipset (and as I'm sure you know, it's a workstation chipset). Other than nVidia, do you know if any other companies are going to be making PCI-e chipsets anytime soon?

--Stryfe

No you see. You didnt read and you failed to read it yet again *DUH*


Basically i say this because they are very expensive, but may not perform much better than an X800. which arent terribly awesome, i know as my friend has one, a pro bios modded to XT, extra pipes unlocked, but not hardware modded.
And my 5950U GT performs just about as well as it. its not quite there, and i did pay as much for mine, but i paid for the brandname, he didnt.

He said his 5950 is as good as an x800pro and i disagreed with him because i actually KNOW they dont come close.

---------

PCI-e regardless of chipset is as fast as AGP. PCI-e only has 16x data transfer rate and we dont even use 8x AGP to its full extent because cards simply dont need to in any game.

The PCI-e XT is no different than a AGP XT-PE...sometimes its a few fps ahead, sometimes its a few fps behind...overall they are the same card only one costs more to use by quite alot.

[IceStorm]

Also, nvidia still isnt as good as ATI at AA/AF although they are getting better,6800's AA/AF is the same as/better than the X800's. The big difference is that you can force it properly on in nVidia's drivers. With ATI's drivers, they don't allow forcing AF levels across all texture stages. It's a big problem in games written back in the day that don't adjust AF on their own (application preference). Only the first texture stage gets the AF filtering you ask for in the control panel. The rest are bilinear. Deus Ex (the original) does some really nasty things when AF is forced on.

Ironically, all the problems with NV30's drivers made nVidia swing 180 degrees and now one can force on several AA/AF/filtering options, unlike ATI which won't let one force these settings through-and-through. THAT'S why ATI's faster in most cases. Their drivers are ALWAYS in adaptive mode.
and judging 6800/x800's on doom3s performance is silly as doom 3 was designed and optimised for nvidiaNV30 was designed around Doom 3. NV30's old. NV40 contains NV30's Doom 3 centric extras, but includes much more.

I don't think he'll go wrong in current games with either card, but after the last year of fighting ATI's drivers in both new (Thief III wall flickering, anyone?) and older games, I'm ready to go back to nVidia for a while.

I'll give Deus Ex a try when I get home. That's one game that ATI never got 100% right. AA/AF caused all sorts of corruption issues on my 9700 and 9800XT. I'll see if the 6800 GT does the same. Oh, and my 6800 GT's at Ultra speeds now courtesey of the "enhanced" settings button on Gainward's own control panel. :-)

[Samhain]

and judging 6800/x800's on doom3s performance is silly as doom 3 was designed and optimised for nvidia

No it wasn't. Doom3 has 5 different rendering methods and each vendor (nVidia/ATi) has it's own specific method. Not only that, but at first, nVidia performed like shit and iD had to go and do all sorts of tweaks to get the game to actually run reasonably, it wasn't 'optimized' for nVidia, they had to optimize to actually make the game SUPPORT nVidia, which was repsonsible for some delays.

[bounty]

Personally, I know a lot of people will get pissed off at me saying this, but I think the x800 and 6800 cards(yes, even the ultra and xt) are a little disappointing. I'll explain why. I have quite a few friends who all went out and bought the x800xt and I have seen the 6800 on a few machines where they work (they work at a computer shop). Even with the fastest processor and the x800xt, a gig of ram, doom3 cannot be run flawlessly with all the settings up and at the highest resolution. Even people at id said it would not be until the 512mb cards are released that will be able to run that game flawlessly. That said, running that game at medium settings, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the new generation cards,and say a 9800 pro.

Personally, I will wait till the 512 cards come out and upgrade at that point and pay probably an arm and a leg for one, but I will get a very good life out of it, most likely taking me through quake4 at the very least.

I wouldn't upgrade my computer for doom3, great game, but way too linear and overall a bit disappointing despite the amazing graphics and environment. Half life 2 i think will be a different story as with other next generation games coming.

I kind of rambled but thats just my view. If you were gonna go with a card now, i think the 6800 ultra and the x800xt are both awesome cards, just go with personal preference at that point. imo 6800 GT is probably the sweet spot though for price and performance.

[Viper Venom]

nvidia is like kk, it has its problems but its still there best there is ;) iv had a nvidia since the early days when ati scrued over my computer when i tryed overclocking one.

always found teh preformance on a nvidia beats a ati :S prolly jus me

ohhhh and if u buy a 6800 series u get doom 3 freeeeeee

[Celt]

No it wasn't. Doom3 has 5 different rendering methods and each vendor (nVidia/ATi) has it's own specific method. Not only that, but at first, nVidia performed like shit and iD had to go and do all sorts of tweaks to get the game to actually run reasonably, it wasn't 'optimized' for nVidia, they had to optimize to actually make the game SUPPORT nVidia, which was repsonsible for some delays.http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17497

[Vampire222]

Simple bud, buy a x800 pro vivo and flash it to a xt plat... saves you 100....