View Full Version : Instance Dungeons - The way to solve griefing ?
Im playing CoH atm and all missions are instanced now this means
You go select a mission the server spawns a door that you enter and you run mission ( Like you dont know how they work :) )
Once that happens your the only one in there and can run the mission to your hearts content
Now Neocrons biggiest downfall is that lvling can turn into a gank fest with high killing low .. Much as some ppl enjoy it keeping people subscibing is all important. If your getting ganked all night wheres your oppurtunity to lvl up ?
Proposed would be missions have a better difficulty setting like the viper caves or thos ones at crp etc
Of course you can level outdoors as normal but you need to be given a choice.
Ive not seen in mention in nc2 plan file and not checking at 2am :) bu its all the rage in rpgs atm and NC could really benefit
Richard Slade
14-08-04, 03:45
AKA Dynamic Dungeon System (DDS)
anarchy Online started this, and yes, it's a good thing in the way that you get to be left alone,
HOWEVER it takes away the integration between people since we're not THAT many in there anyways
And of course the current server-hamster is getting quite old..
But I would like a good mission system, where missions are good even for capped players, and having a DDS there would be wikkid!
I'd rather they remove the cellers at least .. the sewers can stay though of course .. and made Normal missions alot longer. So when you actually complete your "random" mission you get a bigger payout in money and XP and symp or SL (not sure on what changes they were assigning to Faction symp and SL). Also you should only be given a choice of difficultly level and then what style of mission. Choice of Tradeskill / Combat related / smuggler / Hacking. And once you choose that then you "HAVE" to take the mission assigned to you. If not you suffer some penalty of trust falling so deny a few and you might have to drop in level of difficulty because you lost enough trust. throw in tons more missions and you'll have people sparced out enough instead of stacked in the typically aggie cellers leaving all the other sectors pretty empty. As you level up you should be "forced" to move out and travel about.
Ugh
Getting ganked is apart of Neocron and very important. You will have to find new places to level and you will need to get others to protect you. I had a lot of fun leveling in the outzone and wastelands as a noob and having clan mates protect me. Pvp is not a problem!
EQ2 will have the same system.
I think the best way to stop high killing low in NC is to make it so you can't damage or be damaged by someone who is more than 10-15 cbt ranks below or above you.
Neocron is a hardcore pk game, and instanting only serves to detract from what makes Neocron interesting. If it wasnt for the FPS aspect of this game I would be playing EQ or AC.
I think the best way to stop high killing low in NC is to make it so you can't damage or be damaged by someone who is more than 10-15 cbt ranks below or above you.
I would honestly quit the very second kk did that.
I'm going to say this again NOOBS CAN KEEP LE IN.
[ edited ]I know newbies who quit, because capped l33t ganker BDs like you killed them all the time.
naw i dont think thats a bad idea drake....why do you think its a bad idea...as a primarly PK char i still think lvl limits would be good
[ edited ]
[ edited ]Jack is as entitled to his opinion as you are.
Besides I agree with him. Newbies get the option of an LE to protect them. Ganking is a part of Neocron, like gun raids etc etc. Neocron is a game where if your stupid or if you don't know anyone, you will die.
Besides, Neocron hardly punishes death. It's easy to deal with.
That's great Benjie, but Drake has only threatened to quit (and cost KK money) which is highly unlikely, [ edited ] However, I know people who _have_ quit thereby, actually, costing KK money, because of peeps like Drake. :)
That great Benjie, but Drake has only threatened to quit (and cost KK money) which is highly unlikely, [ edited ] However, I know people who _have_ quit therby costing KK money, because of peeps like Drake. :)
FYI, Jack Drake is a faction counsiler assistant, and a constructive member of the community. Not the 10 year old griefer you are making him out to be.
[ edited ]
[ edited ]
I started Neocron as Tangent and joined the Khans at retail start. I didnt want to an asshole or anything. I leveled in aggies and sewers getting pked at least 5 times a normal days play. I moved to outzone and different storages... My clan would follow the noobs around to protect them. It was really fun! I was always looking over my sholder for crackheads or crc to kill me. I died a lot. I loved the fear and challenge of it all.
Now I'm black dragon. I never gank noobs! Who the fuck are you to say I kill noobs randomly? I killed a Tsunami noob a few days ago outside Black Dragon hq (he was rank /20) does that mean I'm a dickhead? No!
If noobs couldnt get pked there would never be noob helping clans (well when the game had noobs there were clans that would protect them).
[ edited ] In fact he plays one so well that people decide that this game isnt for them. Oh well.
I killed a Tsunami noob a few days ago outside Black Dragon hq LOL, Translation - I kill noobs, but I'm not a noob killer honest!!
Law enforcement chip is the equivalent of an instanced dungeon since it offers the same protection...just leave it in. I don't see any detriment to doing so at early levels - especially for new players.
[ edited ] In fact he plays one so well that people decide that this game isnt for them. Oh well.
LOL, Translation - I kill noobs, but I'm not a noob killer honest!!
I killed a rank 20 red noob who is my factions biggest enemy outside our hq. Maybe he will learn to stay out of pepper park 2 and maybe he will join a powerful clan and get his friends to come kill me. It is apart of the game. I'm doing my best to make the game go around the way it is ment to. I wont kill a "new player" below rank 20 because they havent been playing long enough... I wont go in aggies and pk 'anyone' not even a /65 enemy clan. How am I so bad?
Yeah I roleplay a black dragon thug. I wont sex your body or ever talk on DM about a kill. I'm playing a needed role in this game and I'm trying to do it the best way possible.
Cant we all agree the LE chip is there so players can level up without having to worry about getting ganked? And agree that it is the perfect fix? sheesh
Law enforcement chip is the equivalent of an instanced dungeon since it offers the same protection...just leave it in. I don't see any detriment to doing so at early levels - especially for new players.
I agree but I think there needs to be a BIG freakin box that pops up when you try and pull the LE out
WARNING!!!
You are attempting to extract the Law Enforcer Chip.
The Law Enforcer Chip protects you from Player Vs Player
Combat. Deactivating the Chip will put you at risk of
being attacked and killed by other Runners. It is Strongly
Advised that you keep the Law Enforcer Chip in place
until you are confident enough to protect yourself.
Do you wish to proceed with the Removal of the Law Enforcer Chip.
Yes / No
Did you feel manly Drake? I mean wow, he was a whole whopping level 20. The LE is not a perfect fix, because you will ridicule and send private messages to LE'd people saying they should be "manly" and take out the LE, because you want to kill them.
Making it so you can't hurt or be hurt by people who are more than 15 cbt ranks above or below you is probably the best way to attract and keep players who dont think a "good time" is getting ganked by capped peeps at Military base.
because you will ridicule and send private messages to LE'd people saying they should be "manly" and take out the LE, because you want to kill them.
WTF is your problem with me? Just because I'm black dragon does not mean I'm a dickhead. I dont PM/DM anyone about taking out their LE :wtf: I tell noobs to keep it in until they want to be involved.
Did you feel manly Drake? I mean wow, he was a whole whopping level 20. The LE is not a perfect fix, because you will ridicule and send private messages to LE'd people saying they should be "manly" and take out the LE, because you want to kill them.
Making it so you can't hurt or be hurt by people who are more than 15 cbt ranks above or below you is probably the best way to attract and keep players who dont think a "good time" is getting ganked by capped peeps at Military base.
You obviously know nothing about Jack Drake, [ edited ]
WTF is your problem with me? Well, unfortunately for you, I have had experiences with you and so have some of my friends. The general conclusion is that you 'roleplay' a blood thirsty BD bastard very well. Don't worry, I'm dreading being forced into DoY with you. :)
Gotterdammerung
14-08-04, 06:35
The one and only warning this thread will get. Some of the more intelligent need to rise above things and let it go. Benjie, Spaticus & Drake please get off this thread with your pissing contests. Take it to pm's or wherever but drop it already.
Allow me to apologize Gotter. I was simply trying to say that allowing newbies to be ganked by capped characters is the fastest way to cause people to rethink renewing their subscription.
I offered a possible solution to this problem, because if there is one thing that is certain, it is the fact that every “newbie” who comes into NC2 will get ganked by bored capped players. You simply can not prevent new characters from getting repeatedly murdered by capped peeps, when NC2 comes out.
So maybe, in order to try and keep a reasonable player-base, KK should try to implement a system that doesn’t discourage people from playing by making them nothing more than “new meat.”
The LE is not the answer, because it prevents all PK. You want people to not feel cheated by being killed by a capped character when they are a newbie. Instead you want them to be able to engage in the primary aspect of the game, which is PK, without exposing them to instant random death by capped peeps. In other words, keep the PvP relatively interesting and competitive by limiting who can kill whom.
Gotterdammerung
14-08-04, 07:08
I'll re-rail this.
An instanced dungeon or a dungeon-on-demand is as someone mentioned before generated when you choose your mission. In another game the area is generated and you can even allow others to come along with you by giving them a duplicate mission key or you can all team first, accept the mission, all get keys and then do it. Solo missions do have a goal to them but team missions usually are multi leveled & have a boss mob at the end that drops some very good loot.
Now if you are talking about something like an mc5 what happens is one is generated and when the population inside reaches a certain level a new one becomes available. I have seen teams enter at the moment this happens and half end up in an older one and the other half in a fresh one. As far as I know there isn't a limit to how many are generated, it's all based on internal population.
The dungeons I'm thinking about though are much larger then mc5, have multiple levels and 2 mid level bossess, 5+ higher level ones, 3 super bossess and 1 big daddy.
Obviously this is different then the situation we have at hand but that is the gist of what you are talkign about yes ?
Is it something possible in NC ? I don't know but please discuss the topic at hand and keep flaming & personal grudges out of it.
Gotterdammerung
14-08-04, 07:19
P.s.
You simply can not prevent new characters from getting repeatedly murdered by capped peeps, when NC2 comes out.
So maybe, in order to try and keep a reasonable player-base, KK should try to implement a system that doesn’t discourage people from playing by making them nothing more than “new meat.”
Let me just address this part here. Now I know not everyone has plenty of spare time to hammer out a near capped character in record time but we are talking about neocron, it really doesn't take that long to hammer out a decent leveled character for yourself that can stand some chance in PvP.
There are no drawbacks to having an LE in your head and I say this because surely it's easy enough to leave it in your head for a few days till you are at that decent pvp level & then you can remove it.
I'm playing the game for 2+ years now and if i have to start a new character from scratch I leave my le in a few days and go to one of a few nice, underpopulated places in the wastes I know where I can level in peace.
One of the issues lies in peoples dependence on the aggie cellars. You may feel you will level faster there but you also face the stress you exhibit by perhaps being in there at a low level & getting killed. I strongly recommend that you use the outzone & the wastes to level as in those places it may take you slightly longer (an extra day or 2) to level but you'll have better peace of mind.
There is no wonder cure for what ails each & everyone in NC but there are a few painless ways. At least you'll have a better chance of fighting back and won't have to feel like "OMG a capped bd peekayed me in the agie celler and I'm just a noob"
Instanced dungeons are cool IMHO for several reasons:
they insure that you're the only ones in an area, which means not only is it impossible for you to get ganked by people lying in wait, but also that you are gaurenteed to have a hell of a time getting through, because you face a fresh batch of mobs every time.
It also allows use of 'FPS style' layouts, that depend on the unchanged condition of a dungeon to place health pickups (medkits in hack boxes? ammo and armor? drugs?) to make a level that requires players to 'play the dungeon' as much as the individual mobs.
It also allows you to ensure that people can't bring along too much help. Not that critical ATM in Neocron, where a good PPU and someone else can duo anything, but important for something like SWGs Corvette.
I think that NC should have at least one, MC-5 being the prime candidate, but possibly also a new 'off map' mission (like the aforementioned ones) it would be a great new addition and a good new gameplay dimension...
The idea that you can have multiple ‘dungeons,’ hunting areas (i.e. MC5) destroys the purpose of creating a large powerful clan.
What’s the point? All you need to do is get a group together that you know can clear the dungeon and then go in and “kill the boss” and get the reward. It sounds like an assembly line part machine, since clans will simply create teams designed to go in and run the dungeon all day. This defeats the whole purpose of having a PK centered game.
The more organized, powerful clans are supposed to control prized leveling spots. On Darktide in AC there were “guards” who were posted at the entrances of prime leveling areas in order to ensure that only monarchy members could level there, which is the point of being part of a large powerful clan/monarchy.
I'm playing the game for 2+ years now and if i have to start a new character from scratch I leave my le in a few days and go to one of a few nice, underpopulated places in the wastes I know where I can level in peace. I played this game for a month before I left the city. You are using your superior knowledge of the game, since you have been playing for over 2 years, and saying that people who have never played should know what you know. This is utterly flawed logic, and will not solve the problem of actual new people deciding that getting Pk'ed every other minute is not their idea of fun.
I can level a character in no time now as well, but a real "newbie" can't because they don't have 2 years of playing this game under their belts.
Another thing about instanced dungeons...
I like it when clans can control leveling areas. If you want to level there put your LE in or go kill the bastards taking your spot! That is what makes Neocron so damn fun. I could never level at crp cause a certain TG clan kept cycrow... So I would go with a few friends and kill their entire leveling party and level ourselves for a hour or so (before they came and killed us lol) But its fun! At least the way it is now there is strife between players and clans and people interact.
1 who said NC was ever PK centered?
second, in order for Instanced dungeons to REALLY shine, you need POWERFUL mobs.
IE: (I know I hate to use another MMO as an example, but in this case the shitbucket has a few gems... Note that this is not an endorsement of SWG, for as my underwear so plainly state: NC > SWG. Leveling treadmills are excersice equipment, not fun MMOs)
The Corrilian Corvette in SWG in probably one of the toughest dungeons ever assembled. It has a time limit, you have a limit to the number of team mates you can bring (it used to be 5 total per team, not sure what it is now) and the Black Sun Startroopers inside could waste you in a few hits. only a team of 5 experianced, capped (master) combat characters with lots of experiance, planning and supplies stand a chance, and even then it's a 50/50 sometimes, with luck and team composition playing a LARGE part.
So here's my idea:
NC's instanced dungeon: MC-5 data cores.
The dungeon itself is located in the sector below MC-5, a hole in the ground with a pair of 120/120 sentry guns. In order to gain access you need to have completed a mini-epic for your side (pro-DoY get a mission to raid a CA tech facility, Pro-NC get a mission to recapture stolen technology.)
When a person with authorization (a special epic datacube, good for x visits) enters the opens the door, it stays open for 1 minute, allowing his team to enter. After that the door closes in a rather cinimatic scene and they sync into MC-5 data core.
The core itself is the MC area show in the origional demo, with smatterings of rouge STORM bots, MC-5 guards and other tough mobs. half way through the sprawling complex, with numerous lab rooms with hack boxes full of goodies (non-rare imps, guns, drugs, ect.), they find the Base commander, the MC-5 commander, with bodyguards. This encounter fails to yeild the parts sought after (maybe give him a chance to drop a part) but leads to a small safe-room (no spawns and closed doors) with a gogo and a GR (out only, the safety valve to let teams opt out of the data core portion) Once inside the MC-5 cores, there is no way out except dying, or the boss room. The cores are basically rooms full of cryo-pods full of runners (the ones that have yet to 'wake up'), leading to the central data structure.
A Massive circular room (with NO cover) as tall as you can see. using the 'circular hovering numerics' texture in a circle (like the MC-5 starter room has, you know what I mean) Here is the MC-5 administrator, a mega-boss that makes the MC-5 BC look like a wee-crab with oodles of HP, a deadly energy/stack X-ray/heat attack and can call in arial strikes (like STORM bot rilfe shots, but massively AoE) from the data core itself. When beaten he drops loads of cools stuff, rare parts, MC-5 parts, unique stuff, whatever KK can think of to make us drool
What do you guys think?
rofl sounds like gotters played coh
1 who said NC was ever PK centered?
http://neocron2.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=42692
At retail start noob killing was a popular topic heh...
Neocron is PK centered, because you have to "become" PK in order to join a clan or engage in Op wars. This is a PK game. The problem is that somepeople get bored and decide to kill anyone they see enter a sewer. I saw a capped BD tank enter a Via Rosso level 1 sewer to gank someone. It was funny, the Tank actually watched the sewer entrance waiting for an un-LE'd peep to go in.
Maybe if there were skill limits on who could enter certain leveling areas the problem would be solved. For example only peeps with a skill level below 10 can enter a level 1 sewer. To keep things fair peeps can't be buffed with levels that are significantly above their level (i.e. level 0/2 people with level 3 buffs and Holy Shelter and Deflector). Base the level of buff on the skill level of the target, and make it so you can only kill people close to your level and more people might decide to stay.
But, making it so you can create a specialized team to run a particular dungeon all day (i.e. MC5) without the fear of ever being interrupted by other players simply makes getting certain parts/ boss drops a matter of endurance.
The KEY IMHO to a good instanced dungeon is one that even a specialized team has no certian chance of getting through...
a well set-up ID gives a team of capped players, using good tactics and experianced. a maybe 1 in 5 chance of getting through the first time, and marginally better success rate once they learn to 'work the rooms'
Making highleveled chars not beeing able to hurt lowleveled ones doesn't make sense. Specially when there is such a thing as the LE around. And the whining about people killing people is just booring me. It's a rough world, deal with it. If you can't take the smell of your noobs plasmaburnt corpse, choose another game. I meen, sure, i've made the same noise as this dude (www.pwned.nl) a dozen times when some fresh char of mine have been killed by some random PK'er. However, when my face turn back to it's usual shade of pale i accept the defeat, log on a higher level char and go gank someone to make me feel better. Dog eat dog. Red is dead, no matter how nibbish.
Now, to the subject. Instance dungeons would make it easier for KK to make more complex missions.. but, It would remove the constant watching over ones shoulder for enemies which i find to be one of the few, perhaps the one single part of leveling a noob char that is fun. However, I agree to you guys saying that the missions need to be reworked. The ones that exist is a joke. Even though they make your runner well... run.. and kill... rats. :p
Gotterdammerung
14-08-04, 08:26
The idea that you can have multiple ‘dungeons,’ hunting areas (i.e. MC5) destroys the purpose of creating a large powerful clan.
What’s the point? All you need to do is get a group together that you know can clear the dungeon and then go in and “kill the boss” and get the reward. It sounds like an assembly line part machine, since clans will simply create teams designed to go in and run the dungeon all day. This defeats the whole purpose of having a PK centered game.
See what I'm talking about isn't as simple as it's portrayed above. The dungeons I speak of are geared towards certain & specifically targeted player levels. Teams must all be of level close to each other, and the dungeon & what it contains are geared to that as well. If the dungeon is from level 25-50 then the best item in there you'd have to be around level 75 to use IF it's an item thats geared toward you. There are ways to equip it or fit it in prematurely via implants & buffs though.
Now those bossess i mentioned drop good loot but not all the time & some of it is geared toward special professions but the point is if you want to be the kick ass clan then you can be that but in the level 25-50 range, someone else has the kick ass clan in the 50-100 range and so it goes on.
If the kick ass level 200 clan came along all they could do is watch from the outside as they'd be too high leveled to enter & too high leveled for killing the noobs. That wouldn't stop some clan in the 25-50 range though from trying to control the area around it.
In a way what this does is stops capped characters from killing noobs and pushes them into actually having to fight players around their own level. This is where I think we would see some real quality pvp. See people with a capped character marauding know that when they enter the bunkjer at mil base that anyone there is pretty easy prey and in spite of what they say it's really what they want, easy kills. Having to fight someone close to their own rank throws the whole process off, they have to stop & think "is he gonna use a pain easer on me ? modded with what? should i put on a fire belt? what if I don't have enough speced in poison resist etc"
I would honestly quit the very second kk did that.
I'm going to say this again NOOBS CAN KEEP LE IN.
That a lame excuse as usuall what about clans etc
maybe if the pk'er left that would solve the problem so maybe they should implement a dynamic dungeon system so they would leave!
Instanced Dungeons still doesn't make sense to me. And Gottre.. Gotterd.. hmm.. Mr. Farm Slut's post didn't make it clearer. It would be like having a store where poor people would instantly end up in the cheapstakes section and rich people ending up at the gourmét place when entering it. And this with no possibility for interaction. Newbs would be out there on their own without the help and support of their fellow oldies. It would divide people, destroy the need for protection and well.. not make sense.
gotter hit it on the head exactly...
watching a pair of good duelists (especially in NC, from a good vantage point) is like watching poetry in motion. I've seen some people in NC that were GOOD (to avoid getting a 'keep it in game' or derailing the discussion, I'm not going to name names, you know who you are... hope you enjoyed my belt too :) ) they spend as much time trying to outsmart each other as they do trying to simply keep the crosshairs on target, switching weapons and armor mid-fight to evade resist setups, pulling some REALLY oddly modded weapons out (ever see an advanced ammo modded CS? they happen to be brutally effective against a purely ERR/XRR/FIR spy)
maybe instanced dueling grounds (like NF but with belt drops or objectives and no 'reset'?) could be an idea to implement too, they match likle ranked players...
I'd like to see NC battles like the old wars in Japan... a lone samurai would wander the battlefield while the peasants fought and seek out an opponent of his rank and honor level to duel, and if he defeated him, oftentimes the defeated samurai's ranks would retreat... maybe implement a system that lets players 'lead' Either DoY or NC infantry like that? for events...
Instanced Dungeons still doesn't make sense to me. And Gottre.. Gotterd.. hmm.. Mr. Farm Slut's post didn't make it clearer. It would be like having a store where poor people would instantly end up in the cheapstakes section and rich people ending up at the gourmét place when entering it. And this with no possibility for interaction. Newbs would be out there on their own without the help and support of their fellow oldies. It would divide people, destroy the need for protection and well.. not make sense.
you do make a very good point maybe have both system as it is now with the option of dynamic dungeons.
I also know ppl who quit due to being ganked repeatedly... for a lot of ppl PvP is not the end all and be all of the game, and would prefer to play the game without it, as it is now its forced onto players who want to join a clan,
and clans do have a untique social status in NC its simply not the same without one, imo they give you a sens eof belonging and community :)
also if you choose to keep the LE in your penilised by loosing a valuable head implant slot :(
I think the should have a totally seperate slot dedicated only for an LE chip, and enable LE clans, that would solve all the problems :)
Aaargh! What are you thinking with? There is no invicible barrier IRL disabling me from hurting people of "higher rank" than me. I could waltz right up to the fuckin wanker King of Sweden and poke him right in the eye if... well.. if i could get past the guards that is. But you get my point i hope. The barrier, if any, should be in the psyche of the player. And people tend to get a bit nasty when playing games such as this one.. and so be it. As i said, dog eat dog.
The only place where instanced dungeons might be good in Neocron is MC5. Then again, they could just redesign MC5 to make it a longer and much more interesting dungeon, such as Gaya Mine, and they could make 2-3 such locations to alleviate the crowding that is sure to come when population counts start climbing.
As far as griefing new runners goes, leaving your LE in for a few days or weeks is such a simple solution. Additionally, the new two empire scheme should make it much more difficult for anti-city people to just stand around in Neocron. The inner city areas should be fairly safe for new runners leveling up.
you do make a very good point maybe have both system as it is now with the option of dynamic dungeons.
I also know ppl who quit due to being ganked repeatedly... for a lot of ppl PvP is not the end all and be all of the game, and would prefer to play the game without it, as it is now its forced onto players who want to join a clan,
and clans do have a untique social status in NC its simply not the same without one, imo they give you a sens eof belonging and community :)
also if you choose to keep the LE in your penilised by loosing a valuable head implant slot :(
I think the should have a totally seperate slot dedicated only for an LE chip, and enable LE clans, that would solve all the problems :)
Giving the LE a dedicated slot would be lovely. But having LEd' clans? Hell no. There is nothing more annoying than a high leveled enemy char with his LE in. It makes my brain... itch.. It's very unpleasant. I feel a need to shoot, but i can't. Frustration.. yes.. frustration.... dislike it. LE should only be effective until a certain level.. to stop brain from itching... yes...... *scratches head*
Aaargh! What are you thinking with? There is no invicible barrier IRL disabling me from hurting people of "higher rank" than me. I could waltz right up to the fuckin wanker King of Sweden and poke him right in the eye if... well.. if i could get past the guards that is. But you get my point i hope. The barrier, if any, should be in the psyche of the player. And people tend to get a bit nasty when playing games such as this one.. and so be it. As i said, dog eat dog.
I would agree but if u did that you'd be thrown in jail for 10 years :)
i could live with PK'ing if there were actual worthwhile consequences.... but there isn't.
and even so PvP should be for those who want to, but those who don't should not be forced to PvP or penilized by an LE
you can't justify pk'ing my saying "I'm RPing a nasty person" it's plain and simply because you can, and PK'er don't seem to care about the harm they do, they do it because they can end of story, even if doing it make ppl quit and ruins the server poplulations.
I would agree but if u did that you'd be thrown in jail for 10 years :)
i could live with PK'ing if there were actual worthwhile consequences.... but there isn't.
and even so PvP should be for those who want to, but those who don't should not be forced to PvP or penilized by an LE
you can't justify pk'ing my saying "I'm RPing a nasty person" it's plain and simply because you can, and PK'er don't seem to care about the harm they do, they do it because they can end of story, even if doing it make ppl quit and ruins the server poplulations.
I myself, am a pretty nasty person. And this is the sole reason for me killing people. I happen to run across someone in OZ or whatever, kill him and get a nice little picture in my head of whomever it may be at the receiving keyboard going nuts. And it makes me smile. Actually it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. I giggle for a moment and well, it's having a lasting effect on me. And the person going nuts too i think. I'll have a good day, and he won't. Hmm, this probably changes stuff IRL too. People breaking up because of GFs' going nuts at their boyfriends screaming their lungs out at the 'puter.. People bying new keyboards.. maby even new monitors.. I'd say that by PK'ing, you change the world! MOMMY!! I've CHAAANGED THE WOOORLD!! *takes a deep breath*
If people quit because getting killed makes them sad(er), then they should cowboy the fuck up. It's not that bad. Seriously. It just makes you want to level even more, to get your sweet sweet revenge.. like strawberries after whooping your friends in cricket or bowling.. *smudgysmudgy*
OH! Allmost forgot.. getting thrown in jail would resemble bad SL and a bountysystem.
i could live with PK'ing if there were actual worthwhile consequences.... but there isn't.
and even so PvP should be for those who want to, but those who don't should not be forced to PvP or penilized by an LE
you can't justify pk'ing my saying "I'm RPing a nasty person" it's plain and simply because you can, and PK'er don't seem to care about the harm they do, they do it because they can end of story, even if doing it make ppl quit and ruins the server poplulations.
I roleplay a nasty person! Because Neocron is a pvp game. What is so horrible about the LE?? I dont get it. Some people quit when "carebear" features go in that prevent a full pvp world. There are two sides. That is why you can have a LE in or not have a LE in. I dont care if reakktor adds a "LE slot" under implants if that is what you want but there really isnt much more wrong with the thing!!! If I had a LE in I would just make a buddy list with my friends and enjoy the game unable to get hurt by other players. Why do LE people feel like they need to take it out?
I myself, am a pretty nasty person. And this is the sole reason for me killing people. I happen to run across someone in OZ or whatever, kill him and get a nice little picture in my head of whomever it may be at the receiving keyboard going nuts. And it makes me smile. Actually it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. I giggle for a moment and well, it's having a lasting effect on me. And the person going nuts too i think. I'll have a good day, and he won't. Hmm, this probably changes stuff IRL too. People breaking up because of GFs' going nuts at their boyfriends screaming their lungs out at the 'puter.. People bying new keyboards.. maby even new monitors.. I'd say that by PK'ing, you change the world! MOMMY!! I've CHAAANGED THE WOOORLD!! *takes a deep breath*
That is fine and you should be able to do that. I enjoy pvp but I'm not quite like that. I only enjoy making people mad in RL if they complain a lot about me or pvp in general. Its kinda like "hahaha he got what he deserved". I enjoy the combat and the strife between players of different levels and clans... and factions.
I'm just repeating myself :wtf:
To everyone: Put your LE in and you cant get hurt ;) Neocron already has a feature to avoid getting ganked.
Gotterdammerung
14-08-04, 09:17
Sorry if you don't get my meaning mobius but it's not as you think.
An instanced dungeon would be for someone from level 25 to 50. So it's not like you are poor going in there and since the best loot is at the end & for higher levels in the begining you are there to level. Later when you get to a higher level & want some of that loot you get in a good team & go in further. Lower level teams ae there to gain exp, higher ones for the loot. And as I said the loot thats there isn't applicable to eveyone and regardless of the quality of the team the process isn't a cakewalk, it's still very possible to get your butt kicked. The big daddy boss drops sometimes a medical journal that helps only those who are or a healing profession.
Once you reach level 50 if you want to level more there is a diffrent dungeon for 50-100 in another place etc.....
Sorry if you don't get my meaning mobius but it's not as you think.
An instanced dungeon would be for someone from level 25 to 50. So it's not like you are poor going in there and since the best loot is at the end & for higher levels in the begining you are there to level. Later when you get to a higher level & want some of that loot you get in a good team & go in further. Lower level teams ae there to gain exp, higher ones for the loot. And as I said the loot thats there isn't applicable to eveyone and regardless of the quality of the team the process isn't a cakewalk, it's still very possible to get your butt kicked. The big daddy boss drops sometimes a medical journal that helps only those who are or a healing profession.
Once you reach level 50 if you want to level more there is a diffrent dungeon for 50-100 in another place etc.....
Sounds like the DoY-tunnels to me. So basicly u'r saying that the dungeon should be the same no matter the level of the chars that enter it. But as you go further in, the mobs grow stronger. Hmm.. Sure. If i'd be agreeing to the whole idea of instanced dungeons, i'd say that sounds good. However, this was not what i was against in my post.
What i don't like about instanced dungeons (i'll write ID from here on) is that it lacks logic. I meen, i see a group of people running into a cave in the distance, run after to follow them and end up in a parallel world to theirs. This is what i ment by the poor/rich-scenario earlier. It just doesnt make sense.
Sorry if you don't get my meaning mobius but it's not as you think.
An instanced dungeon would be for someone from level 25 to 50. So it's not like you are poor going in there and since the best loot is at the end & for higher levels in the begining you are there to level. Later when you get to a higher level & want some of that loot you get in a good team & go in further. Lower level teams ae there to gain exp, higher ones for the loot. And as I said the loot thats there isn't applicable to eveyone and regardless of the quality of the team the process isn't a cakewalk, it's still very possible to get your butt kicked. The big daddy boss drops sometimes a medical journal that helps only those who are or a healing profession.
Once you reach level 50 if you want to level more there is a diffrent dungeon for 50-100 in another place etc.....
this is confusing, this sounds more like how most dungeons in MMORPGs work today. the main theory behind an instanced dungeon is that there is a clear beginning and end, that is designed around a specific level. It was added originally as a way to re-create the classic PnP dungeon crawl, complete with neat/awesome/uber loot and big mean baddies at the end, and traps and treasures along the way. (at least how lost dungeons of norrath and to an extent AO do it, and what WoW is aiming for).
Current MMOs have their non-instanced dungeons setup into tiers, with scaling loot and encounters like how you just described.
[ edited ]I know newbies who quit, because capped l33t ganker BDs like you killed them all the time.
Then prehaps you should of told those newbies to wear their LE's until they were at a level they were not such an easy target.
Then prehaps you should of told those newbies to wear their LE's until they were at a level they were not such an easy target.
*pats on back*
Good night/day/whatever to you all.. My account just expired hehe.. and i'm fookin tired. So.. laters! =P (i'm not quitting, i like it when the red water comes out)
Instanced dungeons are great for the player if they don't want to share, however as community building it is counter-productive unless those dungeons require a large team to run them.
Instanced dungeons are great for the player if they don't want to share, however as community building it is counter-productive unless those dungeons require a large team to run them.
Not exactly. Small group dynamics work best, IMHO. It's very easy to build a small party of people you may or may not have met before than it is to build a huge one. most large scale raid-type encounters create a very Xenopobic atmosphere between clans/guilds etc. If you look at anything large-scale required in a MMO, you'll always see it dominated entirely by said clans/guilds.
The small scale stuff is what brings people together. And it's not about not wanting to share, either. The concept is more of giving a gorup of people a sense of acomplishment in doing an entire dungeon by themselves.
Not exactly. Small group dynamics work best, IMHO. It's very easy to build a small party of people you may or may not have met before than it is to build a huge one.
You can already do this in NC. With an instanced dungeon (ID) you are able to create a larger group as there would be a mission/quest in order to get the trigger to open the ID.
If you look at anything large-scale required in a MMO, you'll always see it dominated entirely by said clans/guilds.
Like I said it is because people don't like to share. most dungeons (in NC2 starting off) will be dominated by by clans. They won't share starting off, in fact your going to see a lot of killings starting off. With an ID you dont have that interruptions.
The small scale stuff is what brings people together. And it's not about not wanting to share, either.
In NC contention is what brings groups together.
You can already do this in NC. With an instanced dungeon (ID) you are able to create a larger group as there would be a mission/quest in order to get the trigger to open the ID.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. You mean like "Get rare item drop A to open dungeon B"? Most Instanced dungeons in games are not generated (or in WoW's case proposed to be) in that fashion. this defeats the entire purpose of the events.
Like I said it is because people don't like to share. most dungeons (in NC2 starting off) will be dominated by by clans. They won't share starting off, in fact your going to see a lot of killings starting off. With an ID you dont have that interruptions.
but also with an ID it's a one shot deal, you do the dungeon run, thats it. There's no point in staying there once you've completed your dungeon, because it's not open to you anymore, you've finished your instance.
In NC contention is what brings groups together.
I've never seen evidence of this, 90% of what I hear, most clans are at eachothers throats, most players for that matter. (But I do play on saturn, and as most MMORPGs show, behaviour will vastly change server to server)
I think we may be speaking of two different ideas of instanced content.
(i'm not quitting, i like it when the red water comes out)
Bwahahahaha, Salad Fingers!! Got to watch that now, before logging into NC. Anyway I love the Instance Dungeons, well thats actually the only thing that kept me in AO (for two months). Dynamic Dungeons would not be punishment for those who like to PvP (some people seem thinking like that). Anyway we need some good jobs in NC2, so tradeskillers can get money and XP without need to lvl up via killing and then LoMming, that just doesnt make sence really... Just think it this way
You kill -> you learn to use your weapon better -> you kill more -> you use LoMs -> and suddenly you are uber in making weapons and you dont know a thing how to use em.
Giving the LE a dedicated slot would be lovely. But having LEd' clans? Hell no. There is nothing more annoying than a high leveled enemy char with his LE in. It makes my brain... itch.. It's very unpleasant. I feel a need to shoot, but i can't. Frustration.. yes.. frustration.... dislike it. LE should only be effective until a certain level.. to stop brain from itching... yes...... *scratches head*
you need some flea power *wink* :lol:
thats the point you don't like LE clans cos u wan to force pvp onto anyone you want to whether they like it or not, thats whats wrong you should have a choice, and a dedicated LE slots and LE clans would solve the problem imo.
non le clans can take OPs and do PvP LE clan would not be able to do either but can play without being ganked etc best of both worlds really :)
you need some flea power *wink* :lol:
thats the point you don't like LE clans cos u wan to force pvp onto anyone you want to whether they like it or not, thats whats wrong you should have a choice, and a dedicated LE slots and LE clans would solve the problem imo.
non le clans can take OPs and do PvP LE clan would not be able to do either but can play without being ganked etc best of both worlds really :)
I dont want to force PvP onto people.. i'm just saying i go weird when i see highleveled LEd' players.. that's just my own personal problem u know.. *twitch*
Richard Slade
15-08-04, 08:23
FIRST, Götter, you've played AO waaay to long now :p
We ain't got no lvl 200 in here.
SECOND, I see the DDS as a good way to level AND a good way to hang out with friends and chill.
AO had this, and thanks to it I found many friends there,
you team up and go for a hunt in a nice and private complex.
If KK just got themself arsed to make more items (ALOT) this would be a very valid thing.
Also by adding the little little thing that you don't know what you get means it's a good way to get rare stuff UBER rare, like 1/150 gets you a part or one of the certain rares, and to make it even more fun, make it none aggressive rares, like uber sweet hats, special smokes or clothes, and so on,
and in like 1/500 you might even get a part for a rare weapon or such
YES there will be raiders made only for the sole purpose of this place,
but hey, even I got a raider only made for MC5.
And seriously, must every single bit of the game be pvp oriented?
Can't we have the chance to relax with our friends without having to give a shit about others, for once?
I dont want to force PvP onto people.. i'm just saying i go weird when i see highleveled LEd' players.. that's just my own personal problem u know.. *twitch*
You're one of the people that flip out about my ** PE with his LE in aren't you?
I'd love LE clans, it would give me a reason to play more than just when my static party in FFXI isn't leveling that night. maybe, I dunno. I do mostly play neocron to solo.
No restrictions thanks, danger is a part of the game, and we already have a high enough leveling-pace without having perfectly safe leveling zones + there is the LE which imo should be removed (too exploitable)...
Voted no. :o
Abstained voting.
Sure, if you make; Instanced GR's, Instanced Chat, Instanced Trade, Instanced... (on and on)
The only way to get rid of griefing is to programatically eliminate it. IF someone CAN do a thing, they will do it. Rules in general wont help, we've seen that time and time again.
Here are some examples that could be automated/changed:
* "Mommy....he got LE in..Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa." - Ok, so lets flipp it over; Why do someone need to be able to PK a non clanned runner? Because they think they are playing Crapper-Strike.
* "WOhoHOh.. camping the GR's.. i aml33t0rz, killing runners with Synaptic Impairment." - NOT when you get Autobanned for a week if you kill more than 1 runner near a GR within 60 minutes.
With the comming of NC2, i hope to see some more RPG encouraging game logic to get rid of some pathetic people.
I played Battlefield Vietnam today for a lot of hours with a friend, there is constant action in that game. Why Play NC when you can go kill everyone there? Because, it's not a right to play on someones server, it's a privilege. If you grief (TK/Cheat) YOUR ARSE ARE KICKED OUT OFF THE SERVER, that's why these people play MMO's because they know it takes time before anyone get kicked from a "Pay to play" game.
I'm abstaining from the vote, I don't want instanced dungeons tho.
As for the PKers, who justify the killing of newbies, well, fine, They may know why they are being killed, and not do it again, but if they don't know why the keep getting PKd, or there is no reason, then they'll prolly just say "sod it, I can't be arsed with this crap" And leave.
We don't need game mechanics to enforce things like this - we just need the game to support the players policing themselves. Just as some clans may choose to randomly PK, other people with more honourable tendencies will form clans to protect players and hunt down those PKers. However, due to people demanding game mechanics to protect them, we instead have safezones etc. which only make things easier for the PKers, and make the anti-PK clans' job impossible. This is the reason I want to see Neptune - because the people who benefit most from safezones are people who will only fight those that can't fight back - i.e. sit in Plaza all day until you have a few PPUs and a gang of people then all go out to MB together killing single enemies. Remove safezones, and when they don't have a PPU on the only place they can hide is their apartment, and an apartment is a lot less inviting to a lone player than Plaza with all the local chat.
Therefore I vote no to this, because I would rather encourage support for the community to police itself rather than 'false' artificial game mechanic means which spoil the atmosphere, immersion, and roleplay.
Jesterthegreat
16-08-04, 00:44
Im playing CoH atm and all missions are instanced now this means
You go select a mission the server spawns a door that you enter and you run mission ( Like you dont know how they work :) )
Once that happens your the only one in there and can run the mission to your hearts content
Now Neocrons biggiest downfall is that lvling can turn into a gank fest with high killing low .. Much as some ppl enjoy it keeping people subscibing is all important. If your getting ganked all night wheres your oppurtunity to lvl up ?
Proposed would be missions have a better difficulty setting like the viper caves or thos ones at crp etc
Of course you can level outdoors as normal but you need to be given a choice.
Ive not seen in mention in nc2 plan file and not checking at 2am :) bu its all the rage in rpgs atm and NC could really benefit
seems to me it turns missions into a single player game
You're one of the people that flip out about my ** PE with his LE in aren't you?
I'd love LE clans, it would give me a reason to play more than just when my static party in FFXI isn't leveling that night. maybe, I dunno. I do mostly play neocron to solo.
hahaha yep, that would me me.
* "Mommy....he got LE in..Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa." - Ok, so lets flipp it over; Why do someone need to be able to PK a non clanned runner? Because they think they are playing Crapper-Strike.
Oh you little whiner. Why do i want to kill my enemies? BECAUSE THEY ARE ENEMIES! Aaaah christ. The HUMANITY!! *waves in dispair*
* "WOhoHOh.. camping the GR's.. i aml33t0rz, killing runners with Synaptic Impairment." - NOT when you get Autobanned for a week if you kill more than 1 runner near a GR within 60 minutes.
Ah wtf.. Red = Read. Nothing more nothing less. If i see someone pop out of a GR in front of me who is my enemy, will i stand there for like 2 minutes waiting for his SI to drop so he can attack me? Ofcourse not, it doesnt make sense. Infact that would be stupid. Think of it like this. If you walk down the street and you see this person u know wants to put a nice little peice metal through your skullbone and u notice he hasnt seen u yet. Will you 1. Shoot him first. or 2. Pat him on the shoulder and say "hi, there here's ur chance to kill me" and then load ur gun.
With the comming of NC2, i hope to see some more RPG encouraging game logic to get rid of some pathetic people.
Why would you want to get rid of yourself?
I played Battlefield Vietnam today for a lot of hours with a friend, there is constant action in that game. Why Play NC when you can go kill everyone there? Because, it's not a right to play on someones server, it's a privilege. If you grief (TK/Cheat) YOUR ARSE ARE KICKED OUT OFF THE SERVER, that's why these people play MMO's because they know it takes time before anyone get kicked from a "Pay to play" game.
Tell me, please, since when can i get kicked/banned from neocron for killing my enemies?
haiku-writing wanker.
On top of that, NC2 is WAR. That's even more of a reason for reds to be shooting first and asking questions later.
We don't need game mechanics to enforce things like this - we just need the game to support the players policing themselves.
This has been tried and it was a spectacular failure. Just look at DarkTide in AC. All that happens when you have a world where there are no safe areas period, is that the most ruthless Random PKs join together create a monarchy, then the monarchy becomes a self-reinforcing system where the largest most ruthless monarchy expands its power, because people will join for protection. Eventually enough people joined the monarchy in question that a new monarchy "rule" was created, which stated that higher level members could kill any sub level 50 characters in the monarchy.
The solution is to make it so you can only kill people who are within several levels of you, skill wise. This will allow everyone from newbies to capped characters to enjoy all the aspects of Neocron particularly PK and the thrill of knowing it is a PK game, while making it so low level characters are not just "new meat" for bored capped peeps. The system now is such that low level characters cant really enjoy the central element of Neocron, PK, because anyone can kill anyone.
This has come up before
i'd LOVE to see DDS in NC IIIFFFFFF you didn't gain XP in there or not to a great extent. It was just for missions, set goal to complete for your faction or an item or to gain a new standing with some1 else.
Leveling SHOULD BE VERY RISKY its not cyber punk if ur safe.
[edit] deleted what i said since i didnt make sense at all [edit]
I'm against instanced dungeons because they destroy the meaning of cooperation which is an important aspect of every rp - you need other people to help, to cooperate, to interact with (whether in a hostile manner or not, it doesnt really matter).
Though it is the problem obviously. I am all up for the non-safe zone environment, but as i've stated many times before, it wont help the newbies. Other players can kill pkers, though they *cannot* protect low lvl players. Noob dies in 3 hits and there is absolutely no way other than LE to prevent them from dieing. Though the consequences of non-safe zone environment may (maybe...) scare off some of those wannabe griefers due to the fact that they would be forced (at some point) to fight people who match their ranks and are not defensless victims.
Gevrik Halfdead
16-08-04, 08:28
If I wanted a dungeon all for myself, I'd play Baldur's Gate.
This is a MMORPG, please don't take the MM out of it.
Viper Venom
16-08-04, 08:46
stoped at first page, i think its bad if u have to solo a cave, type thing,,,, but what about places where copbots or similar guard outside, and will only let certain lvls in, " ime sorry citisen that cave is for medium expirianced runners (25-40 lvl) please procede to an area more fitting of sumone of ur tallents"
that would be great, u can only be ganked by ppl u stand a chance in killing
I guess everyone missed the point of the idea of instanced dungeons is to have a challenging encounter with a group dynamic. The only game to botch it so far has been AO. Lost Dungeons of Norrath for EQ or the Burning Circle fights in FFXI are much better examples of what instanced content is, or at least what most people agree should be, about.
WoW, EQ2, and LDoN all have instanced dungeons setup to be a challenging encounter designed around a balanced group of a certain level. They do (or supposedly will) require a great deal of co-ordination with the group you go in with to succeed. And for succeeding, you get treasures, good amounts of XP and usually a neat story to tell. The one's I've done in LDoN were not easy, and were the most fun I ever had in EQ. In FFXI many of the story (read boss) fights are conducted in instanced stages with whomever you're after for the mission/quest and are extremely challenging, particularly the ones that have the "uber loot".
Done properly, instanced content is challenging, rewarding and exciting. Since proper ones are done around the idea of a group, you obviously need to know people (part of the reason to freaking play an MMOG). Since they're not the bulk of the game (both in LDoN and FFXI Instanced content is a fraction of your play time, and you can't just keep going back), you don't lose out on the usual things you have to go through in an MMORPG.
But obviously I'm talking to the wrong crowd about the benefits of such a system. Most people here obviously think of instanced content like how AO did it, which everyone I talk to agrees, was the wrong way.
(please do note that I also hear CoH did it the AO way too, which is very disapointing, if anyone knows for sure I'd like to hear about it, $15/m is too much for me to justify paying)
Gevrik Halfdead
16-08-04, 09:54
The whole idea of having instanced dungeons for only one player or a group of players in a pvp based game is just wrong.
People will be hiding in their little instanced holes and abuse the system.
..a load of mindless drivel...
Try reading post before you comment on someone the next time.
NC has a shitty reputation in the MMORPG genre because of griefers.
I dont understand what the hell you are meaning; maby you want demented people camping the GR, exploiting, high leveled characters fucking up noob leveling spots, rezkilling etc..
Griefing wont help bring people in to the game. Griefing kills the game. Neocron do not need griefing retards. Period.
Try reading post before you comment on someone the next time.
NC has a shitty reputation in the MMORPG genre because of griefers.
I dont understand what the hell you are meaning; maby you want demented people camping the GR, exploiting, high leveled characters fucking up noob leveling spots, rezkilling etc..
Griefing wont help bring people in to the game. Griefing kills the game. Neocron do not need griefing retards. Period.
So you say i didnt read your post huh? And calling my view mindless dribble ey? Guess what, i never even mentioned exploiting. Neither did i mention rezkilling. So i guess you didnt really read MY post. Wanker.
You want a system that would kill one of the things i like about neocron. And one of the very few things that are slightly logical. The complete and total lack of "virtual" little fuzzy carebear-rooms to which people like you, who really need to eat more meat, want to hide and kill little cute mobs with their little fizzy wizzy nailguns for hours on end.
Situation: Some guy is boored or drunk or stoned or what the fuck ever. He runs down into the aggies and whacks a bunch of noobs that pulled out their LE way too early. What happens? They go back to Rontrade and whine for five minutes until some guy looses his mind and goes after this first PKer. Problem fucking solved.
If you can't take getting killed a few times while leveling then choose another game ffs, go whine somewhere else! Play Final Fantasy or something.. Spend your life playing some snuggly little gay dwarf with assless pants and a nice little leather cap. Run around saying nice things to people to make them happy and jolly because they never dieee.. nono.. it's a perfect world in Final Fantasy. Indeed, no one gets ganked.. because it's not possible. Yey happy thoughts fill your mind when.... oh WHAT THE FUCK! :mad:
Oh oh! U dont understand what i'm meaning?! I gave you a perfectly fine real world example of pure fucking logical behaviour to respond to what you said about killing people that pop out of GRs'. And you didnt understand that.. Allright. Let's take it down a few notches then...
Example#2: Two snuggly little babies sitting on the floor looking at their toys. Billy and Barnie. Billy is pretending that his toy, which happens to be a red really cool car, is about to crash into Barnies barbiedoll (yep, Barnie is gay). Barnie suspects this, he's allmost psychic, and does a pre-emptive strike on Billys super cool red car before Billy could even react (because he was thinking of boobies).
In this example we lear about Billy and Barnie. Billy beeing the guy coming through the GR. Billy thinking about boobies resembles SI and Barnies pre-emptive strike against Billy's super cool red car is the guy beeing at the GR killing the unlucky bastard coming through the GR before i has a chance to fight back! Because he's thinking about boobies! OK!? Is it clear now Mr Fuzzypants?!
I guess everyone missed the point of the idea of instanced dungeons is to have a challenging encounter with a group dynamic. The only game to botch it so far has been AO. Lost Dungeons of Norrath for EQ or the Burning Circle fights in FFXI are much better examples of what instanced content is, or at least what most people agree should be, about.
WoW, EQ2, and LDoN all have instanced dungeons setup to be a challenging encounter designed around a balanced group of a certain level. They do (or supposedly will) require a great deal of co-ordination with the group you go in with to succeed. And for succeeding, you get treasures, good amounts of XP and usually a neat story to tell. The one's I've done in LDoN were not easy, and were the most fun I ever had in EQ. In FFXI many of the story (read boss) fights are conducted in instanced stages with whomever you're after for the mission/quest and are extremely challenging, particularly the ones that have the "uber loot".
Done properly, instanced content is challenging, rewarding and exciting. Since proper ones are done around the idea of a group, you obviously need to know people (part of the reason to freaking play an MMOG). Since they're not the bulk of the game (both in LDoN and FFXI Instanced content is a fraction of your play time, and you can't just keep going back), you don't lose out on the usual things you have to go through in an MMORPG.
But obviously I'm talking to the wrong crowd about the benefits of such a system. Most people here obviously think of instanced content like how AO did it, which everyone I talk to agrees, was the wrong way.
(please do note that I also hear CoH did it the AO way too, which is very disapointing, if anyone knows for sure I'd like to hear about it, $15/m is too much for me to justify paying)
Whyyyyyy does a cave with cool mobs that take a whole team to take down have to be instanced. Tell me this, please. Huh? I just can't see why? Why put in this instance shit? It's A CAVE not a portal to a multidimensional... thing! LOOOOGIIIIC pleease..
Richard Slade
16-08-04, 13:06
Whyyyyyy does a cave with cool mobs that take a whole team to take down have to be instanced. Tell me this, please. Huh? I just can't see why? Why put in this instance shit? It's A CAVE not a portal to a multidimensional... thing! LOOOOGIIIIC pleease..
So put it in an elevator and make it a basement instead, problem solved and we can have instanced dungeons
and having this 'shit' is so one could relax with friends with a while and not give a flying fuck about anyone else
So put it in an elevator and make it a basement instead, problem solved and we can have instanced dungeons
and having this 'shit' is so one could relax with friends with a while and not give a flying fuck about anyone else
Now theeeres something i could agree with! Finally!! A man with a brain huge enough to be able to reply in a nice way. =) Now i've only got problems with that other haiku-writing wanker.
[edit]
Notice i said "could" agree with...
Richard Slade
16-08-04, 13:36
Now theeeres something i could agree with! Finally!! A man with a brain huge enough to be able to reply in a nice way. =) Now i've only got problems with that other haiku-writing wanker.
[edit]
Notice i said "could" agree with...
That's you're problem not mine ;)
Anyways I do belive we could need a chill-out place we're we can get away from the rest, and still have something to do,
and no, rearranging furniture in ones apartment doesn't count :p
So you say i didnt read your post huh? And calling my view mindless dribble ey?Guess what, i never even mentioned exploiting. Neither did i mention rezkilling. So i guess you didnt really read MY post.
I didn't read what you said because you didn't read my post. Welcome to ignore.
Wanker.
Ärthjärna.
If you can't take getting killed a few times while leveling then choose another game ffs, go whine somewhere else! Play Final Fantasy or something.. Spend your life playing some snuggly little gay dwarf with assless pants and a nice little leather cap. Run around saying nice things to people to make them happy and jolly because they never dieee.. nono.. it's a perfect world in Final Fantasy. Indeed, no one gets ganked.. because it's not possible. Yey happy thoughts fill your mind when.... oh WHAT THE FUCK! :mad:
You see people, this is the reason why i'm for Birthcontrol.
I didn't read what you said because you didn't read my post. Welcome to ignore.
Ärthjärna.
You see people, this is the reason why i'm for Birthcontrol.
1. If i didnt read your post then why the hell did i reply to it? Huh?
2. I'm more than happy to be on his ignorelist, coz i really don't enjoy complete moorons replying to my posts with nothing to add.
3. Birthcontrol huh? Well finally theres something we both agree on. I'm surprised u slipped through. And i'm even more surprised to see that you survived long enough to be able to make half-assed posts in forums.
Fittskalle.
Richard Slade
16-08-04, 13:45
You just gotta love Swedish taunting, it's the most odd thing in the world if you actually understand it.. Hilarious :D:D:D :lol: :lol:
That's you're problem not mine ;)
Anyways I do belive we could need a chill-out place we're we can get away from the rest, and still have something to do,
and no, rearranging furniture in ones apartment doesn't count :p
Lol yea, sure is my problem. Well his problem really, but hey.
As 'cron is set up right now, the only place i could see as one of these dungeons is MC5. I could go for some new cool places with awesome drops beeing instanced as well. Just as long as the places make sense. MC5 could very well make sense. Like, u get a security bypass gizmo to get past the security lock and a code for which "office" to hit.. or something similar
Swedish taunting > all
Richard Slade
16-08-04, 13:54
Lol yea, sure is my problem. Well his problem really, but hey.
As 'cron is set up right now, the only place i could see as one of these dungeons is MC5. I could go for some new cool places with awesome drops beeing instanced as well. Just as long as the places make sense. MC5 could very well make sense. Like, u get a security bypass gizmo to get past the security lock and a code for which "office" to hit.. or something similar
Swedish taunting > all
I say put it in the regular elevator, just enter pass like 'basement' and u get slapped into an instanced basement
That way u can just relax and take it easy inside the city walls
I say put it in the regular elevator, just enter pass like 'basement' and u get slapped into an instanced basement
That way u can just relax and take it easy inside the city walls
For noobs? Then there would be noobs runnin around all by them selves all over the place. Not cool.
For missions, hell yea! Get a nice mission from jobcenter or what ever like..
Mission:
Go to plaza blah enter B basement and find the missing industrial typ dildo that ichinin stole and ran down there with. Beware, it might be covered with nameless things.
Mission time left: 100 days (for preparing mentally)
Mission reward: Priceless
Try reading post before you comment on someone the next time.
NC has a shitty reputation in the MMORPG genre because of griefers.
I dont understand what the hell you are meaning; maby you want demented people camping the GR, exploiting, high leveled characters fucking up noob leveling spots, rezkilling etc..
Griefing wont help bring people in to the game. Griefing kills the game. Neocron do not need griefing retards. Period.
So? NC has a reputation of greifing because of people who don't understand the PvP system. It also was clearly never meant to be a mainstream MMORPG, otherwise it would have mainstream features, like no caps on skills maybe, or only able to PvP with people of similar level. Instead, it's specifically aimed at this niche. Or more accurately, it was, until some people started playing who didn't like it that way. In an attempt to cater to everyone, KK have mostly destroyed that initial atmosphere that got most of us properly hooked. We now have two incompatible groups of players - one group still pines for the old atmosphere when NC really was dangerous. I keep coming back to the idea of 'player police' - well we used to have them. On Saturn, there used to be an RPK clan known as HATE, you may have heard of Starkes and his friends. Starkes' favourite pasttime was to head over to MB and gank newbs (at that time including myself).
Now, during and after Starkes' raids, there were two main reactions. Some of us would gang together in a large team, and go hunting him. It was really good fun, and I loved it. Some others would instead come to the forum and whine that they got killed, despite being a /20 who had taken their LE chip out. Had nothing changed, we would mainly have the first group, and there wouldn't be a problem, because it balances itself out. Instead the second group who whined got the game mechanics changed in the form of SL and belt drops. Result? More fun for people who just wanted to sit around on their own levelling all day, at the expense of people who wanted to take part in what the game was all about - PvP - from the moment they stepped into the NC world.
Anyway, back to topic. Instanced dungeons do sound like they could be an interesting addition. The only thing I am against is the fact that it's yet another aspect to reduce immersion.
@Scikar. All very true.
The reason I started playing this game was that it was a "real" world, which had a element of risk. You had to watch your back. \The element of danger has been reduced.
Why implement an instant dungeon system? Where's the element of danger in this. The only thing that could kill you is the mob, and they're predictable most of the time.
Maybe we should give clans a no-friendly-fire option? :)
So? NC has a reputation of greifing because of people who don't understand the PvP system. It also was clearly never meant to be a mainstream MMORPG, otherwise it would have mainstream features, like no caps on skills maybe, or only able to PvP with people of similar level. In EQ skill caps are linked to level, and they cap your level. Now, EQ does periodically raise the max level possible, but there are caps. In Asheron's there is a hard cap to every stat and skill. Also, in Asheron's any PK can kill any other PK.
The idea of not having any safe zones whatsoever has been tried and it is called Darktide. There you are a PK all the time and you can be killed by, anyone, anywhere, there is not a single place where you cant be killed. But to be merciful they made it so you can't be killed for 5 minutes immidiately after you have been killed. Enjoy your 5 minute respite.
The no rules, no safezone, player 'enforced laws' model was tried. It didnt work, and not for a lack of players either. There were always 1000-1500 people on the server.
Making leveling areas level based (ie Level 1 sewers in Via Rosso only allow people who have a skill rank between 2-7). Then other areas have skill ranges like 20-30, and so forth. I would still prefer a limit on who can kill whom based on skill rank, but oh well.
In EQ skill caps are linked to level, and they cap your level. Now, EQ does periodically raise the max level possible, but there are caps. In Asheron's there is a hard cap to every stat and skill. Also, in Asheron's any PK can kill any other PK.
The idea of not having any safe zones whatsoever has been tried and it is called Darktide. There you are a PK all the time and you can be killed by, anyone, anywhere, there is not a single place where you cant be killed. But to be merciful they made it so you can't be killed for 5 minutes immidiately after you have been killed. Enjoy your 5 minute respite.
The no rules, no safezone, player 'enforced laws' model was tried. It didnt work, and not for a lack of players either. There were always 1000-1500 people on the server.
Making leveling areas level based (ie Level 1 sewers in Via Rosso only allow people who have a skill rank between 2-7). Then other areas have skill ranges like 20-30, and so forth. I would still prefer a limit on who can kill whom based on skill rank, but oh well.
The fact that one game tried it and it didn't work doesn't prove it wouldn't work if tried again. Also note that I didn't say just remove safezones and leave it. I said use the game mechanics to support the community policing itself rather than changing them and saying "Hey, you can't do this!" "Why not?" "Because it's not fair on low level runners." Since when was everything in the world fair? The real world isn't fair, and NC is supposed to be more harsh, not less so. If you can come up with RP reasons for things like this then fair enough.
For example, what I carefully omitted from my previous post is that I think rather than having safezones, instead have guards KoS players who draw weapons, maybe even players with weapons in their QB (transfer them to inventory before entry). First off, this makes much more sense from an RP point of view than just being unable to draw a weapon for no apparent reason. Second, it also at the same time works against zone hoppers, since they would have to stop and move their items to their inventory before entering a club or HQ.
Richard Slade
16-08-04, 17:37
There's a simple solution to this:
Coppers
The real world isn't fair, and NC is supposed to be more harsh, not less so. If you can come up with RP reasons for things like this then fair enough. My suggestion has very little do do with 'fairness' or trying to make Neocron a 'less harsh world.' Neocron is not a 'harsh' world to begin with, but it is an uninviting one to new players. Try playing a game where there the landmass is as big as Neocron's wastelands, and has no zones (except to go into dungeons), so you cant 'zone crash' or whore, where there are no safe areas period, so you better be good at fighting or running. Try playing a game where as a 126 you always drop 10-14 of your most valuable items, always. There are ways to make this less damaging, but sometimes you get killed several times in rapid succession. Then come here and talk about 'harsh.'
What I am suggesting is keeping a playerbase by making all aspects of Neocron available and enjoyable for all levels of players. This includes making it so low level players can enjoy PK as well.
The more people are killed in what can only be termed executions the more likely those players are to just decide to quit and find some other game to play. If there is one constant in MMORPGs it is the fact that the "PK servers" always have lower average populations than the non-PK servers even when there are 5 times as many non-PK servers, this is because most poeple dont want to deal with 9 year olds who have nothing to do but level up their characters and then use the disparity in character level to kill people online.
My suggestion has very little do do with 'fairness' or trying to make Neocron a 'less harsh world.' Neocron is not a 'harsh' world to begin with, but it is an uninviting one to new players. Try playing a game where there the landmass is as big as Neocron's wastelands, and has no zones (except to go into dungeons), so you cant 'zone crash' or whore, where there are no safe areas period, so you better be good at fighting or running. Try playing a game where as a 126 you always drop 10-14 of your most valuable items, always. There are ways to make this less damaging, but sometimes you get killed several times in rapid succession. Then come here and talk about 'harsh.'
First off, as we know, you can only ever drop 1 item unless you happen to like killing allies, and it won't be your best rare or any of your implants. So the penalty for dying isn't all that harsh at all. Second, you still have your apartment to go to if you simply want to avoid danger. Third, the soulight system exists, to prevent you from simply being killed by anyone. If you are pro-city, and you stick to the city early on, then in NC2 you pretty much won't have any problems. Anyone who kills you must be allied to you, and they're going to need a pretty damn good reason to kill you given the fact there's plenty of CopBots around to blow them away if they start PKing allies. Finally, the areas you would go to after being killed in Plaza, to get pokes, are going to be made safe by allied players in those areas, maybe protecting tradeskillers. Just because there are no safezones does not mean it is therefore easy to kill someone anywhere.
What I am suggesting is keeping a playerbase by making all aspects of Neocron available and enjoyable for all levels of players. This includes making it so low level players can enjoy PK as well.
The more people are killed in what can only be termed executions the more likely those players are to just decide to quit and find some other game to play. If there is one constant in MMORPGs it is the fact that the "PK servers" always have lower average populations than the non-PK servers even when there are 5 times as many non-PK servers, this is because most poeple dont want to deal with 9 year olds who have nothing to do but level up their characters and then use the disparity in character level to kill people online.
No, what you are suggesting is to implement rules with no RP footing whatsoever for the sole reason of protecting people from what is in most cases their own stupidity. If you die in say the aggressor cellars, that's unforunate, but a fact of life in Neocron. Now, if you get poked and run straight back down, and get killed by the same player, who's fault is it really? Your own. There's a whole Outzone full of the same mobs, which is almost always empty. There are sewers and cellars all through Pepper Park and Via Rosso, yet people always flock to the same ones in Plaza, so they're easy to find. If you do what you're supposed to, i.e. watch your back, you can quite easily head out into the wastelands and hunt the small groups of mutants you find out there. Not only is this much safer, it's also better XP from the occasional higher level mob such as a launcher or a swamp strangler, and it's considerably less boring than sitting in one room all day long.
There is then the fact that a newbie is never completely helpless. There is no reason whatsoever for a 0/2 newbie character not to have his LE in. I take it out straight away because I despise the LE (being another element which takes away from immersion and RP) and I enjoy the excitement of having to be careful and watch my back, keeping to out of the way areas, and running for my life if I spot anyone hostile. Someone who cannot accept dying like this however should keep it in. Thus the only real point at which a newbie becomes vulnerable is when they need all 4 brain slots and want to be healed by a PPU. However, that requires that he's in a team with said PPU and most likely others - thus able to fight back against enemies.
Finally, I'm not asking for a PK server at all. I refer to Neptune as an RP server myself, since there would be far more capacity for it there. Bounties would actually work, assassinations would actually work, tradeskillers hiring guards, charging more for their work, and working from out of the way alleys in Pepper park would occur, or even from apartments, that still works for me. Ever watch films like Blade Runner? When you want something done that isn't strictly legit, do you go to someone stood in the main plaza area of a city? No. You find that kind of person down a dark alley, or in a dodgy apartment block in a rougher part of town where he's less likely to be found by police. Hence, Neptune would be a much better RP atmosphere than the current servers with safezones ever will.
First off, as we know, you can only ever drop 1 item unless you happen to like killing allies, and it won't be your best rare or any of your implantsI'm sorry, I was talking about a MMORPG I played for 3 years before coming here. I was just pointing out how Neocron really is a 'carebear' game compared to some others, so the whole 'its a harsh cyberpunk world' argument really isnt persuasive, because Neocorn isn't harsh it is just uninviting to new players.
I think we are at an impasse. I'm talking about creating a gaming environment that is appealing to more people, particularly casual players, and you are talking about immersion.
Perhaps if more people played Neocron, then KK would actually have the money to put into making Neocron a better game. However, because the game is uninviting most people come look around and leave. Why do you think KK is marketing just in Germany? They are desprately trying to get enough seed money to be able afford to market Neocron outside of Germany, because they dont have a large paying playerbase to do it now.
It would be nice to see KK try something like a 4 slot non-PK server, where you can only kill other people in warzones, for the whole OP war 'immersion,' but peeps could create and join clans. I'm willing to bet such a server would have a higher average population than the all PK, all the time servers. Of course, KK would have to add more content, more often, to keep people playing.
Richard Slade
16-08-04, 18:50
hey, the dude got brains
***** on you Splaticus :D
It would be nice to see KK try something like a 4 slot non-PK server, where you can only kill other people in warzones, for the whole OP war 'immersion,' but peeps could create and join clans. I'm willing to bet such a server would have a higher average population than the all PK, all the time servers. Of course, KK would have to add more content, more often, to keep people playing.
That wouldn't work. Anyone who likes op wars would leave because of the zone exploiting that would go on on the edge of op war zones.
IMO if people don't want to get PK'd they shouldn't be playing games where players can hurt each other. Or they could just leave their LE in.
Instance dungeons is a bad idea. It would remove some of the socialization aspects on the game (teaming with others in the dungeons).
Why do we need any more anti-PK measures other than the LE?
Athon Solo
the instant dungeons no but maybee the u can kill players a certain lvl under urs
i cant for the life of me understand why a lvl 60+ guy would have the need to kill ranks 10s and 20s i dont see the point
and the problem is not sometimes ganking the problems is places liek aggies where on sat at least they are camped always high lvl peops killing in there
There's a simple solution to this:
Coppers
It's been done fairly successfully, atleast for a while. One of the major problems comes when clans or factions claim ownership of a dungeon and kill anyone who goes in there without paying, or sometimes anyone who goes in there at all. This just pisses others off - same as when clans will take the ops of their 'allies' because "it's our op - the clan you took it off took it off us" (or even in some cases "it's our op - the clan you took it off took it off the clan who took it off the clan who took it off us").
Athon Solo
IMO if people don't want to get PK'd they shouldn't be playing games where players can hurt each other. Or they could just leave their LE in. All you have to do is look at the server populations to see that most people dont play games where they can be PK'd. If you have a non-PK server, then you will notice a lot of people switching back and forth between the non-PK and the PK servers, because not everyone wants to be looking over their back all day everytime they log in.
I knew lots of people who take a break from the PK server and go play on a 'non-PK servers just to get away from the drama but still play the game. I also knew a lot of people who grew tired of the non-PK servers and decided to goto the PK one for some fun and excitment.
As far as zone whoring, well, that happens anyways and people can already zone crash to avoid death. Just place the OPs in the center of the zone, besides most people die in or immidiately around the OP in OP wars anyways.
All you have to do is look at the server populations to see that most people dont play games where they can be PK'd. If you have a non-PK server, then you will notice a lot of people switching back and forth between the non-PK and the PK servers, because not everyone wants to be looking over their back all day everytime they log in.
I knew lots of people who take a break from the PK server and go play on a 'non-PK servers just to get away from the drama but still play the game. I also knew a lot of people who grew tired of the non-PK servers and decided to goto the PK one for some fun and excitment.
As far as zone whoring, well, that happens anyways and people can already zone crash to avoid death. Just place the OPs in the center of the zone, besides most people die in or immidiately around the OP in OP wars anyways.
Lot's of people don't, correct. But this is one MMORPG when people who do want that atmosphere can actually have it. They are the first though, rather than an afterthought as in other MMORPGs. All we want is for that to continue. So saying "Well EQ does it this way therefore so should NC" or "The majority of MMORPG players want PvP to work this way" doesn't wash.
Shadow Dancer
16-08-04, 19:33
If this truly was a dangerous harsh world, then some of you would have better points. But when I see people not even traveling outside unless they are under the safety of a PPU, or people who stay dead on the floor for 20 minutes till their friend comes along and rezzes them so they face no penalty for dying, when I see a spy disappear into think air and avoid death for the 50th time..............I simply laugh when people say it's a harsh dangerous world.
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