View Full Version : Interesting...
ok some one just showed me this...i go no idea if its bullshit or not, dunno who wrote it and im not saying i agree with the guy...but its interesting to say the least
http://www.blueicez.com/neocron/
Yes, very interesting and worrying. 8|
whoa O_o
well if it is true then its KK's problem to sort out, unless theres a post by a kk employee stating otherwise.
hahah I wonder how long before this thread goes poof into thin air.
I wish I was an expert in german law as well O_o
Looks like wishful thinking to me. It might be illegal in the UK/US, but it might not, and I've no idea what the law is in germany, and the terms of registration clearly state:
Responsible for the contract between you and REAKKTOR.COM is the law of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland (Germany). The court of jurisdiction is Hannover.
I'm sure KK can deal with it. I'm not gonna trust the word of someone who was hacking the game.
Hm he brings up that privacy law, isnt that like an international law or something?
yteah im not 100% it'd stand up...just thought id bring to the public lol http://neocron.jafc.de/images/smilies/old/tongue.gif
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 17:34
Any computer programme on your hard drive remains the property of the company who own the rights to it (that's why you have to agree to a User agreement, if you owned it they couldn't make you). The client, even though it is on the user's hard drive caqn be presumed to remain the property of Reakktor. Although not specifically mentioned in the TOS, it can be presumed under national laws of ownership that they are allowed to access this.
Also it is unlikely that any court would uphold this case as any online game requires information to pass both ways between client and server therefore it can legitimately be claimed that the user knew that information was being transferred from his hard drive and thus by playing the game agreed to it.
Also Reakktor are perfectly entitled to take criminal proceedings against anybody who attempts to artificially manipulate the information on their servers or they BELIEVE is attempting this (Hacking now lands you in jail). Also any attempt to publically use an edited version of their client (accessing the internet counts as public) is a breach of copyright.
Either way kk win :D
Hm I'm no law guru but Reakktor did download a file from our computers without permission? Sounds illegal to me even if it was their files they downloaded. Not to mention they've wasted my PRECIOUS BANDWIDTH!!! :lol:
From the website quoted above:
Since Reakktor hasn't stated ANYWHERE that they can check your files without your permission, they've simply broken the law.This is the entire crux of the argument, but unfortunately it's utterly wrong. The EULA states:
This software product has not been sold to you, but is only licensed to you.What that means is that they are not your files, they still belong to Reakktor and they have the right to ensure that they have not been tampered with contrary to:
You are not allowed to change the software product, subject it to a Reverse Engineering, decompilize, or disassemble it.
So, when you go to your lawyer and tell them that you broke the terms of the EULA and were punished for doing so, what do you think they will say?
I've read things like this so many times and they always brighten up my day! :)
N
Clownst0pper
07-08-04, 18:00
We all knew it.. You just cant say it on these forums.
As for this thread
*waves goodbye* :mad:
Yeah, an early, or should I say late april fools ;)
edit: oh niddy I dont understand that first part there about not sold but licensed blabla but what does that have to do if a company can check files? (I know Im plain stupid :rolleyes: )
hehe http://neocron.jafc.de/images/smilies/old//lol.gif
i thought it might be bs...
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 18:04
I said that about the software being Reakktor's still!!!!!
You plagiarist Nid!!!!
Maybe I should sue you :p
Konrad McKenzie
07-08-04, 18:05
Yeah, an early, or should I say late april fools ;)
edit: oh niddy I dont understand that first part there about not sold but licensed blabla but what does that have to do if a company can check files? (I know Im plain stupid :rolleyes: )
Lets use the good old car analogy :D
its like car hire, you dont actualy own the car but are allowed to drive it about for the duration of the lease. It also mean that the hire company could take the cars wheels off while your parked at some traffic lights and there's nothing you can do about it.
It's full of shit is what it is.
by attempting to run their game and connect to their servers we consent to allow KK to verify the integrity of the mechanism by which we make the connection.
They aren't viewing OUR files they're checking the integrity of THEIR files. If you don't want it you have the right to not play at all.
/votes 1 for FUD
This thread gets a waaambulance too.
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 18:07
It also mean that the hire company could take the cars wheels off while your parked at some traffic lights and there's nothing you can do about it.
No because the hire company agee to give you a working car. If they took the wheels off it wouldn't work.
Konrad McKenzie
07-08-04, 18:11
No because the hire company agee to give you a working car. If they took the wheels off it wouldn't work.
Okay, fair point :)
In that case, lets say the hire company could respray the car pink and wrap tinsel round it :D
No because the hire company agee to give you a working car. If they took the wheels off it wouldn't work.
They'd have the right to check the car wheels to make sure you'd not changed them...perhaps a better analogy?
I will never hire a car anymore.
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 18:13
Okay, fair point :)
In that case, lets say the hire company could respray the car pink and wrap tinsel round it :D
Indeed.
Lets start a car hire company!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
Hm I read that EUELA or however you spell it and it says "IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ THROUGH THIS CAREFULLY! This end-user-license-agreement ("EULA") is a legal binding contract between you and CDV Software Entertainment AG", isnt CDV like history? Is it still binding then?
One more thing, by hosting copies of the EULA and RoC on his website without Reakktor's permission he is quite clearly in breach of copyright. That could land him in serious trouble. Then there's the small matter of a clear suit for libel...
N
Clownst0pper
07-08-04, 18:19
One more thing, by hosting copies of the EULA and RoC on his website without Reakktor's permission he is quite clearly in breach of copyright. That could land him in serious trouble. Then there's the small matter of a clear suit for libel...
N
OMG Nidhogg is eductated! He knows more than swinging hammers!
<3 nidd
Nidhogg is going to be a lawyer some day, I know it :p
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 18:22
Hm I read that EUELA or however you spell it and it says "IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ THROUGH THIS CAREFULLY! This end-user-license-agreement ("EULA") is a legal binding contract between you and CDV Software Entertainment AG", isnt CDV like history? Is it still binding then?
Don't CDV still hold the publishing rights for NC1????
john irons
07-08-04, 18:22
i notice no one noticed that it was written by someone called
Gregorov "KALASH" sounds somewhat familiar o_O
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 18:23
Then there's the small matter of a clear suit for libel...
N
Gregorov Kalash sounds vaguely Russian and they don't have libel laws in Russia........and I'm sure that having a vaguely Russian sounding name qualifies you as being subject to Russian law ;)
One more thing, by hosting copies of the EULA and RoC on his website without Reakktor's permission he is quite clearly in breach of copyright. That could land him in serious trouble. Then there's the small matter of a clear suit for libel...
N
We want blood! We want blood! We want blood!
*go gets popcorn*
FETCH NID!!
;) :D
Gregorov Kalash sounds vaguely Russian and they don't have libel laws in Russia.
lol I got confirmed by a russian guy that vodka is cheaper than milk over there :wtf:
hahah I wonder how long before this thread goes poof into thin air.
lol, probably not long.
Quite interesting, seems much thought was put behind that and actuallly checked into. Doubt it'll change anything tho...
Whoever wrote that deserves to nominated in the Whitbread award for best new fiction.
What a crock of shite.
You'd have thought those cheats would have stopped crying by now and got their heads around the fact that their accounts have gone bye-byes permanently.
lol I got confirmed by a russian guy that vodka is cheaper than milk over there :wtf:
I bought some bottles of vodka directly of a Russian ship once. They were Russian navy issue 0.75 liter bottles that had.....flip-top caps on them (like old style coke bottles) not screw on ones. :wtf:
I bought some bottles of vodka directly of a Russian ship once. They were Russian navy issue 0.75 liter bottles that had.....flip-top caps on them (like old style coke bottles) not screw on ones. :wtf:
LOL! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Whoever wrote that deserves to nominated in the Whitbread award for best new fiction.
What a crock of shite.
You'd have thought those cheats would have stopped crying by now and got their heads around the fact that their accounts have gone bye-byes permanently.
I bought some bottles of vodka directly of a Russian ship once. They were Russian navy issue 0.75 liter bottles that had.....flip-top caps on them (like old style coke bottles) not screw on ones. :wtf:
Speaking of shit, your accusations about a few of the banned people are indeed utterly false. You know what accusations I'm talking about.
As for crying about being banned. Most of them couldn't care less as they are all playing daoc and seeming to enjoy it. One of the people perma banned here only got a 7 day ban for doing the exact same thing he did to get banned here. Or so he claims. He also had recieved a list of the rules and so forth.
Just thought I'd shine some light if such comments as that are going to be made.
Speaking of shit, your accusations about a few of the banned people are indeed utterly false.
...speaking about shit, how about you get your facts right before you attack me?
I've only ever made (private) accusations about one person.
Thanks for the concern you show about defending your banned friends though..
...speaking about shit, how about you get your facts right before you attack me?
I've only ever made (private) accusations about one person.
Thanks for the concern you show about defending your banned friends though..
ok, my bad, one person. There one person, big difference. You made a baseless accusation. Sorry if the truth comes out.
Edit: BTW, thanks for giving me the -rep I really do enjoy it when you get pissed off because I said something that was true. As for the spineless tard comment. I've most likely never seen you in game, nor talked to you, so I suggest the next time you make such a comment as that you think twice as to how much of an ass you'll appear to be. If you are going for that kind of thing, I guess go on right ahead.
You made a baseless accusation.
How the hell would you know if it was baseless or not? :confused: I'm convinced, that's enough for me.
Sorry if the truth comes out.
Yep it did, and a lot of your clan / friends got banned :lol:
How the hell would you know if it was baseless or not? :confused: I'm convinced, that's enough for me.
Yep it did, and most of your clan / friends got banned :lol:
How would you know if it's true or not? (oh, wait a second you wouldn't know)
I'd tell you the exact reason as why they got banned, but that would be against forum rules and so forth to most likely say what it is they did. Sorry if I think before I post :lol:
I've most likely never seen you in game, nor talked to you, so I suggest the next time you make such a comment as that you think twice as to how much of an ass you'll appear to be.
You've never seen me?
That's nice, because i could have sworn i was in the same faction as you for about a year (*cough FA *cough*) or more :lol: , and fought beside you on a number of occaisions....just before you hopped to BD after they started to dominate the map. (and after whining about getting beaten a lot)
I'd tell you the exact reason as why they got banned, but that would be against forum rules and so forth to most likely say what it is they did. Sorry if I think before I post
I know excactly why they got banned thanks. They exploited.
You've never seen me?
That's nice, because i could have sworn i was in the same faction as you for about a year (*cough FA *cough*) or more :lol: , and fought beside you on a number of occaisions....just before you hopped to BD after they started to dominate the map. (and after whining about getting beaten a lot)
I know excactly why they got banned thanks. They exploited.
I'm aware of a monk named I am the conduit, could have figured it was you. Yes I was fallen angel for a while. After the faction had went down hill, I stuck around, so what?
As for going to black dragon. Let's see. Hmm ah yes, I joined prior to them actually starting to hold ops. First op Tescom Uplink (so hrhr, huhu, and gg no re)
I went black dragon as my long time Fallen Angel clanmates Twist3d, gromeister, and nippa went Black Dragon (former smokin fools). You're going to blame me? My bad, did you ever try organizing a clan under diamond a small, non taken serious faction? I tried. If you're point is to try and label me as a faction bandwagoner, stop because it's garbage. False. I was with black dragon when it was only Blood Titans and Cartel beginning out. I stayed after the dismantling of cartel. I was there for the start of shadow corps...
Whining hmmm, ah yes, I did complain because Fallen Angels didn't know the term 'organization' at that point in time. I stuck around tho. As for the last remark, good for you. You know how to read, they got banned for exploiting. I know the exact thing they did to get banned as they all told me the day they got banned when I had logged onto the teamspeak server.
Bravo, ignorance is a disease obviously
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/web_resources/index.html
There you go guys. To sum it up....
If the copyright owner (image creator, photographer, whatever) placed it in the public domain it's generally free to use. They may also make it available to use freely but place some limitations on usage, such as requiring a link back or text credit. In this case they retain the copyright but grant you a free license to use it, and they can also exercise their right to require you to stop using it.
Most video cassettes and DVDs in the open market are sold and rented with home viewing rights only. Movie studios and their agents are the only ones who license sites such as schools. Copyright protects the intellectual property/creation of the author, computer programmer, or movie producer.
I also went through the agreement for 'Ad-Aware' and it made no mention of permission to scan files.
And I don't know why you'd take the website for credit since he did not post any information as to why it is illegal to scan files that don't belong to you.
EDIT: Im readin through international privacy law right now to see if anything conflicts.
I'm aware of a monk named I am the conduit
Almost right, but yes that would be me. Well done. ;)
You know how to read, they got banned for exploiting. I know the exact thing they did to get banned as they all told me the day they got banned when I had logged onto the teamspeak server.
I can read (on good days anyway :P), and sometimes i can even comprehend what others write too.
What part of "I know exactly why they were banned, thanks" didn't you understand?
ignorance is a disease obviously
Irony ++
Almost right, but yes that would be me. Well done. ;)
I can read (on good days anyway :P), and sometimes i can even comprehend what others write too.
What part of "I know exactly why they were banned, thanks" didn't you understand?
Irony ++
you said
'I know excactly why they got banned thanks. They exploited.'
a generalized term, not saying the exact thing they did. Thus why I said congrats you can read. Maybe it's the way it's written, but it seemed to be a bit sarcastic. :p
Alright here is the end all.
International Privacy Law for EU:
http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexapi!prod!CELEXnumdoc&lg=EN&numdoc=31995L0046&model=guichett
US Privacy Law:
http://www.abanet.org/intlaw/divisions/public/privacy/uslaws.html
And a summation:
"The Supreme Court has broadly defined privacy as the right of the individual to control the dissemination of information about oneself. Privacy as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution differs in two significant ways from privacy protected by tort law: (1) the types of acts constituting an invasion of privacy are very different, and (2) the type of protection provided to individuals - constitutional privacy protects against governmental intrusion while tort law primarily protects against invasion by private parties. Fourth Amendment privacy rights only apply in those situations where the government is the primary actor, however it encompasses government employees and some government contractors whose activities might be considered as state action. Twenty-four states, including Colorado, through state constitutional provisions or statutes protect the individuals' right to privacy. Some of these constitutional provisions or statutes have been held to create a civil claim for invasion of privacy by private parties, while others have not. "
The russians lost the war once again. :p
edit: I think? Those laws confuses me once again. :mad:
pure bullshit:
Remember KK is a german company, therefore not subject to US laws regarding evidence.
second, you are using their software, therefore you agreed to allow the functioning of that software to use your system resources.
For the same reason it is not illegal for Kazaa to have spyware, it is not illegal for KK to put monitoring on your file system.
I also HIGHLY doubt that they downloaded the client.exe from every person to scan it, because the sheer amount of traffic would bog down your connection and overload their servers. They probably used a remote scan file put in with a patch, which is most defniately NOT illegal.
In fact if you used a modified client.exe YOU broke the law, because you illegally modified their copyrighted software, so if you want to play hardball legally, you did more illegal than they did.
On legal terms it comes down to whether or not the evidence is admissable. Saying he did more wrong even if I did wrong to obtain the evidence doesn't wash. If I broke into someone's office, broke into his desk and found documents implicating him in terrorist activity, that evidence would be inadmissible. I could take it to the police and they could then conduct an investigation based on it to find more evidence, but those documents could not be used in court. (As far as I understand, anyway). So the page is basically working along those lines, that KK obtained the discrediting info illegally. Except that it was legal, because the files they scanned were there own.
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/web_resources/index.html
There you go guys. To sum it up....
...you dont know anything.
Us law applies to U.S. services, The game was never placed in the public domain or in any other state outside where copyright do not apply, and this is not about fair use. Fair use DO NOT EXIST IN THE USA since the day MPAA/RIAA began their "war against consumer rights". Why do you think www.eff.org are working 24/7 nowdays?
Back to the thread:
They used an altered client or had a copy of the same on their boxes. I do not know if they placed the .exe outside the installation directory, if they had, it could violate german privacy laws. Nothing else. They still wont get their NC accounts back.
They cheated, they got banned. Boo-hoo, noone cares. Period.
I find the "Those who were banned SHOULD BE unbanned because Reakktor
didnt get the file information legally and there for the file data they got on all
users isn't valid" part hillarious.
Sorry that stupid ass logic only work over in the US with their fucked up
justice system. On this side of the pond common sense > paragraphs.
Let's not get in to bashing countries please... There was a question raised and this thread has done a great job at explaining the situation.
The answer is simple and it doesn't require any of us bashing each others laws or governments. The matter is simple, laws have nothing to do with the situation at all.
Quite simply, when you installed Neocron you agreed to the EULA. The EULA is a license agreement, license meaning you are paying for the use of Reakktor's software. If at any time you are found in violation of the terms of use, Reakktor has the right -- not by law, by their own license -- to terminate your service. Since they cannot physically uninstall their software from your computer, the best they can do is terminate your account, which afterall, is exactly what they did.
The method in which they employ to determine if their software has been tampered with is really not an issue here. I can guarantee you that you do not have to "scan" a hard drive to figure out if a modified Client.exe is connecting to the server...
Edit: Maybe with all the time invested in trying to bring Reakktor down, we could do something useful for a change and go after the real criminals. I wouldn't mind getting a chunk of the advertising money the spyware/adware/malware peeps make off of us. If you wanna talk about privacy...
You think because a service that is offered outside of the USA cannot be considered a US service? Go call your Dell support hotline.
Where do you think half the crap in this country is manufactured?
That's pretty arrogant if you ask me. Why do you think there are extradition treaties?
You think because a service that is offered outside of the USA cannot be considered a US service? Go call your Dell support hotline.
Where do you think half the crap in this country is manufactured?
That's pretty arrogant if you ask me. Why do you think there are extradition treaties?
No it cant. Neocron is a german product hosted in germany and abiding
german laws. If you are playing it from the US, good for you, you still have to
abide by the german laws.
@juht: Im not bashing countries, Im bashing the justice system, which is
thoroughly fucked up. It embraces and fosters stupidity which does nothing
but reduce the common sense in people. The laws were not made to protect
stupid people from hurting themselves and getting someone else to be blamed
for it, if we have had those laws thousands of years ago we would still be
living in caves or hell, not even made it out of the ocean. The only reason Im
not actively crusading against it is that our society has taken us out of the
darwinistic evolution already.
as a natural-born US citizen I've got to agree with Rade on this one, the justice system in the US sucks...
Just realized something else too, cheating in a game is not a crime (yet, unfortunately) therefore it doesn't matter if the evidence is court-admissible, KK as a private company, can deny service to whomever they want for whatever reason they want, regardless of other factors.
as a natural-born US citizen I've got to agree with Rade on this one, the justice system in the US sucks...
Just realized something else too, cheating in a game is not a crime (yet, unfortunately) therefore it doesn't matter if the evidence is court-admissible, KK as a private company, can deny service to whomever they want for whatever reason they want, regardless of other factors.
Thats another issue, almost all MMORPGs (havent really read neocrons that
carefully, I dont do the usual stupid stuff so I never really have to worry ;) )
have EULAs formulated in such a way that they can basicly say "hawr hawr
we r pwn j00" and ban you, no reasons given, like it or not.
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 22:25
On legal terms it comes down to whether or not the evidence is admissable. Saying he did more wrong even if I did wrong to obtain the evidence doesn't wash.
Strictly speaking in Europe so long as the police/law enforcement agency stick to the rules in investigating it is still admissable.
This comes down to a simple question:
When you play a MMO game does data travel from your computer to the server/kk??
If the answer is yes (which it is) and you know this (which you do) then you knowingly allow data to be transferred from your computer to kk.
Case Dismissed.
Strictly speaking in Europe so long as the police/law enforcement agency stick to the rules in investigating it is still admissable.
This comes down to a simple question:
When you play a MMO game does data travel from your computer to the server/kk??
If the answer is yes (which it is) and you know this (which you do) then you knowingly allow data to be transferred from your computer to kk.
Case Dismissed.
I should have researched that a little more I guess - though it's not likely to end up a criminal case, but a civil one, where there wouldn't be any police investigation involved, right?
No it cant. Neocron is a german product hosted in germany and abiding
german laws. If you are playing it from the US, good for you, you still have to
abide by the german laws.
@juht: Im not bashing countries, Im bashing the justice system, which is
thoroughly fucked up. It embraces and fosters stupidity which does nothing
but reduce the common sense in people. The laws were not made to protect
stupid people from hurting themselves and getting someone else to be blamed
for it, if we have had those laws thousands of years ago we would still be
living in caves or hell, not even made it out of the ocean. The only reason Im
not actively crusading against it is that our society has taken us out of the
darwinistic evolution already.
IANAL
I think your ire is misdirected. There is a link provided in an above post to International Privacy Law which would govern those circumstances. German laws do not apply to a US citizen, but International would. If it is otherwise please explain other than a US citizen commiting a crime in Germany.
All laws are supposed based from Common Law (aka from the people). Certain laws like copyright are very draconian given the changes in the Digital Age and with bad legislation laws are bound to change.
Take for instance the law in Japan years back where they deemed anyone who was drunk could not be considered responsible for any actions they took. Obviously an awful law. The only reason it was removed was when a judge deemed a drunk driver not guilty when he hit and killed a child.
This isn't Utopia and nothing is perfect and any other country is no different from the US. Stupidity is born from stupid people who do little to be proactive and educate themselves.
'Lord of the Flies' provides a potent example as to why laws are nessecary to maintain a civilization.
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 22:33
I should have researched that a little more I guess - though it's not likely to end up a criminal case, but a civil one, where there wouldn't be any police investigation involved, right?
If you were to sue KK then yes there would because kk would report the hackers to the police because they are trying to do something that they aren't legally entitled to do. Also if you have altered their client without their permission that is also illegal (will get you in far more trouble), if you have an altered client and have sold stuff on ebay then you will be looking at a whole heap of trouble.
tbh this is all by the by because as Nid said kk own the client even if it is on your computer and unless you could prove they were downloading other files then they haven't done anything wrong. You own the limited license to use the client.
If you were to sue KK then yes there would because kk would report the hackers to the police because they are trying to do something that they aren't legally entitled to do. Hacking is taken very seriously.
tbh this is all by the by because as Nid said kk own the client even if it is on your computer and unless you could prove they were downloading other files then they haven't done anything wrong.
You're right, I ought to wake up a little methinks. :p
EDIT: Not really by the by though - if someone who was banned for exploiting tries to nail KK under privacy laws over it I'm sure KK would like to counter it with a case of their own.
Sorry that stupid ass logic only work over in the US with their fucked up justice system. On this side of the pond common sense > paragraphs.
I'm really not trying to make enemies here. But you really do need to admit that you were bashing. If you read your statement, you have identified a "logic" that you termed "stupid ass" that exists in the "US". At the same time you have clearly indicated that you are not from the US with "On this side of the pond" and you have also stated that your "common sense" is greater than that of US laws. Name calling (stupid ass, fucked up) and superiority statements (ours > yours) are prime examples of bashing. If there is anything more irritating on these forums than the whining and spam, it's people not admitting to mistakes. For that matter, why you chose to bash the US, I have no idea -- other than it's trendy. The author does nothing to indicate he is from the US and the domain it is hosted on is in Amsterdam NL.
All I was saying in my previous post is that this issue has nothing to do with laws in any country and therefore can be discussed without bashing other countries. The fact is Reakktor has done nothing wrong with their banning action and there has been enough discussion to prove this.
If you want my opinion, I don't think there is any perfect justice system. In fact I prefer Germany's government to the US's, bi-partisan doesn't work. I can say that without bashing anyone. It's mostly the responsibility of US citizens to make that government better, but the majority of the people are not active politically.
Um... Rade was replying to the guy who claimed US law applied. So I imagine that's probably where he got the idea from? There's only 3 which have been suggested in the thread - German law because KK is based in Germany, International law, because it's an international matter, and US law, because a customer in the US wants to define it as a US service.
As Rade said, he only thinks the US legal system is based on stupid ass logic. I'm sorry but just because a country's name appears on something does not make it country bashing to criticize it.
I just read through all this, and its Saturday when I should be out getting drunk, finding a chick, gettin laid and waking up tomorrow thinkin "omfg i shagged that?!?".. it is Saturday isnt it? I tend to forget what day it is these days :(
Ok, a few points. No you never own software ever, not even under the "Open Source" initiative do you own the software, its just some software allows you to modify it others do not.
However you do own your hardware, and you own the medium upon which the software is installed (i.e. CD-ROM) you are also legally entitled to make 1 (one) backup copy of any software you own, although in the UK it is now illegal to use any device which can let you play copied software on a PlayStation 2 (weird isnt it O_o)
Now, I've never taken any notice of this banned crap, its not effected me, so I can look at this in a open point of view.
Questions that need to be answered.
Did KK take software from your computer without your permission (as in, all of our computers, not just the people that got banned)
Did KK use the information gotten from this to derive personally identifiable information?
Did KK access your computer above and beyond what might reasonably be expected of their software package (as in, I dont expect Windows XP to send a file off to Microsoft every now and then to check if its legit)
See, we expect Neocron (client.exe) to transfer data packets not to transfer files. I think the privacy statement is barking up the wrong tree, if any laws were... bent, it would be Data Protection acts and probably computer intrusion laws (as in they accessed files on your system without your express permission and transfered them across a network without your permission).
My 2 cents :p
Dirk_Gently
07-08-04, 23:09
I dont expect Windows XP to send a file off to Microsoft every now and then to check if its legit)
See, we expect Neocron (client.exe) to transfer data packets not to transfer files.
Don't you???
Doesn't matter really as legally it could be argued that through your actions you have given your consent to the transfer of data from your computer.
Don't you???
Doesn't matter really as legally it could be argued that through your actions you have given your consent to the transfer of data from your computer.
True, and I've also given consent for Internet Explorer to transfer data from my computer using port 80 and port 21 (http/ftp). I have not however given Microsoft permission to take iexplore.exe even though I have explicitly granted IE access to the internet, however, on the flip side of the coin KK does have the DCMA or whatever it is which is the US law that prohibits circumvention of protection mechanisms (i.e. altering a file to bypass security mechanisms as in, NC wont start if you alter file x, so you alter file y so NC will start with an altered file x is in breach of the Digitical Copyright Millenium Act (or whatever it is))
However it goes it would be a very interesting debate, one one side you have protection of IP on the other side you have protection of Information, and such and such, its really a double edged sword.
Promethius
08-08-04, 00:05
This was just brought to my attention, I'm wondering what KK has to say about this... http://www.blueicez.com/neocron/
This is by no means to cause trouble to KK but to bring some light into this matter.
-Prom
Thats already been posted today...
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=106076
This is already discussed (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=106076)!
Please close/merge this.
Promethius
08-08-04, 00:09
From the website quoted above:This is the entire crux of the argument, but unfortunately it's utterly wrong. The EULA states:What that means is that they are not your files, they still belong to Reakktor and they have the right to ensure that they have not been tampered with contrary to:
So, when you go to your lawyer and tell them that you broke the terms of the EULA and were punished for doing so, what do you think they will say?
I've read things like this so many times and they always brighten up my day! :)
N
So if a virus edited the client.exe or watever and KK picked up on it and banned you....this is ok? *puts up zonealarm, Norton, adaware, spybot, blackice*
Also if there was any truth to this matter, (currently i have no idea...i'm not a lawyer and Neither is Nidhogg) the way kK could ahve avoided this was to just put up a screen thats says "allow us to check if your game has been tampered with or you cannot play anymore until you do so" That would ahve avoided this entirely but meh wat do i kno?
-Prom
Promethius
08-08-04, 00:16
Didn't see the other thread just close this one.
That would ahve avoided this entirely but meh wat do i kno?
What is there to avoid...just some banned guy trying to look for an intelligent method of whining. Nothing more.
So if a virus edited the client.exe or watever and KK picked up on it and banned you....this is ok? *puts up zonealarm, Norton, adaware, spybot, blackice*
The chances of a standard virus modifying Reakktor's Client.exe are extremely low and even if it happened, the chance that Client.exe would work afterwards is also very slim.
Now if someone wrote a virus to intentionally modify Reakktor's Client.exe and effectively attempt to get "innocent" players banned, that would be a different story. Albeit an intriguing debate, I honestly don't think anyone would bother to put the time and effort to do it. No, it's not a challenge. Besides, the GMs DO "watch" players that are reported before any action to ban is performed, so an "innocent" player with a virus modified Client.exe would have sufficient time/evidence to prove themselves.
Underground
08-08-04, 00:25
thing is
A few patches ago KK stated that they were adding a file checker to it that checks all def files etc. so that site, is infact, utter bullshit, probably made by someone that thinks their a smartass but is infact a stuck up twit thats going waaaaaaaaa waaaaaaaaaa they r bann0r me for hackin and i r got caught
All I can say to that fella is prove it.
As long as they're stopping asshats from pissing about, i really don't care, i don't cheat or exploit, therefore i've nothing to fear... If that were true, don't you think he would have done something more than just post it on a never to be found website?
Promethius
08-08-04, 01:04
Besides, the GMs DO "watch" players that are reported before any action to ban is performed, so an "innocent" player with a virus modified Client.exe would have sufficient time/evidence to prove themselves.
WRONG. The Gms during the MASS banning didn't watch people before they banned. The reason you dont kno this is because they do not allow us to talk it on these forums. 2nd off The people i knew who edited there client.exe used it for a minor exploit and deleted it thereafter. But a few months role by and BANNNED.
P.S. now tell me the truth, Did u HONESTLY think KK watched EVERY player that was banned or even a portion? Cuz we all kno when u write an ingame support queu, you can wait hours if not a day before getting a reply. Also wat they did was jsut look at there logs and found a way to differ edited client.exes vs non edited client.exe and all the edited ones without warning or a "watching" period got the swift ban.
Edit: whoever that guy was, there was no whining. he was jsut trying to bring some light into that subject. Now if he said OMG KK SUX THEY FALSLY BAN US OMG NERF!!!!11111oneoneeleven. Then maybe i could agree but as the way he says it, I'm going to have to disagree with you.
-Prom
WRONG. The Gms during the MASS banning didn't watch people before they banned. The reason you dont kno this is because they do not allow us to talk it on these forums. 2nd off The people i knew who edited there client.exe used it for a minor exploit and deleted it thereafter. But a few months role by and BANNNED.
P.S. now tell me the truth, Did u HONESTLY think KK watched EVERY player that was banned or even a portion? Cuz we all kno when u write an ingame support queu, you can wait hours if not a day before getting a reply. Also wat they did was jsut look at there logs and found a way to differ edited client.exes vs non edited client.exe and all the edited ones without warning or a "watching" period got the swift ban.
Edit: whoever that guy was, there was no whining. he was jsut trying to bring some light into that subject. Now if he said OMG KK SUX THEY FALSLY BAN US OMG NERF!!!!11111oneoneeleven. Then maybe i could agree but as the way he says it, I'm going to have to disagree with you.
-Prom
And this is somehow wrong?
Look, an edited exe. Edited exes are the result of cheating and in violation of
our EULA. Here take a ban.
Promethius
08-08-04, 01:13
And this is somehow wrong?
Look, an edited exe. Edited exes are the result of cheating and in violation of
our EULA. Here take a ban.
and the wheel turns.... :rolleyes:
I never said there was ANYTHING wrong with the banning ingeneral. I'm just stating his thoughts of the ban process were incorrect.
Edit: There is nothing wrong with the banning ASLONG as KK has not violated the EULA.
-Prom
And this is somehow wrong?
Look, an edited exe. Edited exes are the result of cheating and in violation of
our EULA. Here take a ban.
True they broke the rules so deserved to be banned there is no question about that, but if the fact of the matter is that KK copied files from your computer to theirs without your knowledge, then that is inherently wrong.
whoever that guy was, there was no whining. he was jsut trying to bring some light into that subject.
"Those who were banned SHOULD BE unbanned because Reakktor didnt get the file information legally and there for the file data they got on all users isn't valid, if they are not unbanned, those who got banned have the right to claim their account fully restored, if Reakktor dissaprove, in worst cases a law suit. Actually, all users that were online during these file scans have the right to make a law suit "
Right, no whining there.. :rolleyes:
Also, his choice of host for the article is rather interesting.
The owner of the site writes (or once wrote) trojans "like back orifice and netbus", and there's a section on that site dedicated to Debug / cracking, which is "All about the magical world of reverse enginering... " apparently.
Probably totally unconnected of course, but it made me chuckle. :lol:
but if the fact of the matter is that KK copied files from your computer to theirs without your knowledge, then that is inherently wrong.
This is where the debate has gone sour -- no one has proof that Reakktor has transfered any files of any sort from anyone's computer. So I'm not sure why we are even discussing that aspect. Now from a programming stand point you don't need to transfer the Client.exe or any other files to determine if Client.exe has been modified. The fact of the matter is, Client.exe connects to the server and therefore can tell the server anything about itself.
@Prom
You don't work for Reakktor and therefore would have no idea what they do or don't do. All I stated was the ban procedure they have stated in the past that they follow. The in-game support queue has nothing to do with abuse@neocron.com and exploits@neocron.com. They do look into these issues whether or not you've convinced yourself otherwise.
FACT: Players that had a modified Client.exe to gain an in-game advantage were banned.
FACT: Reakktor has the ability to detect a modified Client.exe as soon as you connect to the server without copying any files from your computer.
FACT: Reakktor does not take banning lightly because as we all know, there are still players that need a ban.
FACT: There is no privacy issues on topic here because no one has contacted any official agencies to conduct an investigation. Remember: "14) You will not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running the NEOCRON Service." You therefore cannot conduct your own investigation.
Dirk_Gently
08-08-04, 03:02
True they broke the rules so deserved to be banned there is no question about that, but if the fact of the matter is that KK copied files from your computer to theirs without your knowledge, then that is inherently wrong.
It is not inherently "wrong" that they check the file that legally belongs to them to check that you aren't breaching copyright, hacking or any other illegal activity. It is "wrong" if they go through files belonging to other people.
As I said before you have given them permission to recieve data from your computer which is all that matters as far as the law is concerned, if you don't like that then you'd better knock up a contract listing specific cases where it is OK for them to recieve data and get the makers of every single programme on your computer to sign it.
FACT: Reakktor has the ability to detect a modified Client.exe as soon as you connect to the server without copying any files from your computer.
Hmm then how do they know if the client had a cheated client.exe and not an infected one then? *wonders when this thread goes into sleep mode* :o
Hmm then how do they know if the client had a cheated client.exe and not an infected one then? *wonders when this thread goes into sleep mode*
To my knowledge, the whole virus thing was a hypothetical situation. I am unaware of any time that someone reported having a virus infected client.
Promethius
08-08-04, 03:58
@Prom
You don't work for Reakktor and therefore would have no idea what they do or don't do. All I stated was the ban procedure they have stated in the past that they follow. The in-game support queue has nothing to do with abuse@neocron.com and exploits@neocron.com. They do look into these issues whether or not you've convinced yourself otherwise.
FACT: Players that had a modified Client.exe to gain an in-game advantage were banned.
FACT: Reakktor has the ability to detect a modified Client.exe as soon as you connect to the server without copying any files from your computer.
FACT: Reakktor does not take banning lightly because as we all know, there are still players that need a ban.
FACT: There is no privacy issues on topic here because no one has contacted any official agencies to conduct an investigation. Remember: "14) You will not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running the NEOCRON Service." You therefore cannot conduct your own investigation.
Fact 1: Yes they were banned, i kno of people who punch guards in peppar to get an in-game advantage and they got banned aswell.....or have they?
Fact 2: How the hell do u kno wat reacktor does when u log onto there servers???? You work for them?
Fact 3: once again how would u kno how reacktor takes bans? and whoa re u to say there are people that need banning?
Fact 4: Just because no one has cared enough to file a lawsuit doesn't mean that they can't.
Also why is everyone fighting with all there might to even admitt there MIGHT (when i say this meaning there may or may not be a chance of) be a possibility that reacktor has broken the rules in searching for a client.exe
I'm not saying they HAVE or HAVEN'T done either of this I'm just open to the possibility that they may have. Unless your a lawyer dont give me your YES they have or NO they haven't responses.
-Prom
trigger hurt
08-08-04, 06:07
How the hell would you know if it was baseless or not? :confused: I'm convinced, that's enough for me.
Yep it did, and a lot of your clan / friends got banned :lol:
You know, I'll keep harping on this until someone gets tired of hearing it. The one person, his name is known by several folks, who actually created a hack for this game is still allowed to play if he wanted to. Meanwhile, the others didn't use anything of the sort.
That's why I have always been against the banning. If they banned "everyone", why are a few of the truely guilty still around?
As for your claim...you have obvious ill-will towards one of the people who was banned because he was in a clan you and I were in and according to some of you still active in or affiliated with that clan still harbor resentment for their actions during their tenure in said clan. I, on the other hand, played with this person for quite a while and if he had any of the things you claimed he had, it would have been impossible for me to stand a chance against him when we faught...and that just wasn't the case...he was better than you and you are sore about it.
Gotterdammerung
08-08-04, 06:14
Seriously, I don't know what else you are looking for. Nid has explained it most eloquently and it couldn't be made any more clearer.
You'd cast your lot with some of the wrong people, they got caught and they got banned. Their manipulation of a process, their attempt to avoid detection of it and their subsequent discovery of it by a legitimate process was their undoing.
You are trying to put this into a context where you admit that what they did was bad but also try to say that reakktors method of discovering them was worse and that simply isn't the case. And you are trying to say that because you think their method of uncovering was more bad then what they did they should be allowed to return ?
Try to look at it with a clear head & from a business standpoint. Cheaters & exploiters in any way shape or form are bad for a game and those that do are in violation of their terms of service therefore they are expunged.
You cannot look at this with the compromised values that you are now viewing it with. It's not a case of "oh so what they had a cheat that allowed them to access their famous golden toilet from anyplace in game, big deal. so all that did was allow them to crap anyplace in the map they wanted to without having to go back to the can to hit it".
Is that in your mind supposed to make them l33t or cutting edge because in the circle you traveled that gave them an EDGE OVER ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS??? and no matter what they promised that all they cheated at was the golden toilet ? Ever watch the series cops ? ever see someone who got caught admit to all their crimes? No, thats not what happens in real life.
In reality you want to believe that the expolit they used is all that there was but you can't really be sure because no matter how well you virtually feel you know someone in-game be they from canada, the uk, washington state or the carolinas unless you know then in RL then you don't really know them at all.
My suggestion is to worry about yourself and don't waste so much energy & effort on people who are caught & banned. They aren't comming back and no matter how much you think you can flog that dead horse it isn't gonna rise from the dead, just like they won't be returning.
p.s.
If daoc or everquest wants to allow people who exploit remain in their game they must be insane, how they think that not performing due diligence to their customer base is ok doesn't seem right. But then again we really have no proof of that do we, that they got caught and got a slap on the wrist, just the word some exploiters gave you about how they exploited another game & got away from it till finally caught. Do you see a bad pattern forming here ???.
Seriously, I don't know what else you are looking for. Nid has explained it most eloquently and it couldn't be made any more clearer.
You'd cast your lot with some of the wrong people, they got caught and they got banned. Their manipulation of a process, their attempt to avoid detection of it and their subsequent discovery of it by a legitimate process was their undoing.
You are trying to put this into a context where you admit that what they did was bad but also try to say that reakktors method of discovering them was worse and that simply isn't the case. And you are trying to say that because you think their method of uncovering was more bad then what they did they should be allowed to return ?
Try to look at it with a clear head & from a business standpoint. Cheaters & exploiters in any way shape or form are bad for a game and those that do are in violation of their terms of service therefore they are expunged.
You cannot look at this with the compromised values that you are now viewing it with. It's not a case of "oh so what they had a cheat that allowed them to access their famous golden toilet from anyplace in game, big deal. so all that did was allow them to crap anyplace in the map they wanted to without having to go back to the can to hit it".
Is that in your mind supposed to make them l33t or cutting edge because in the circle you traveled that gave them an EDGE OVER ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS??? and no matter what they promised that all they cheated at was the golden toilet ? Ever watch the series cops ? ever see someone who got caught admit to all their crimes? No, thats not what happens in real life.
In reality you want to believe that the expolit they used is all that there was but you can't really be sure because no matter how well you virtually feel you know someone in-game be they from canada, the uk, washington state or the carolinas unless you know then in RL then you don't really know them at all.
My suggestion is to worry about yourself and don't waste so much energy & effort on people who are caught & banned. They aren't comming back and no matter how much you think you can flog that dead horse it isn't gonna rise from the dead, just like they won't be returning.
p.s.
If daoc or everquest wants to allow people who exploit remain in their game they must be insane, how they think that not performing due diligence to their customer base is ok doesn't seem right. But then again we really have no proof of that do we, that they got caught and got a slap on the wrist, just the word some exploiters gave you about how they exploited another game & got away from it till finally caught. Do you see a bad pattern forming here ???.
No disrepect to you Gotter or reakktor, yet...
I'd take my chances on those banned players that I played alongside for a decent amount of months than a company who said DoY would be a free expansion due out a little while after release.
Oh well, they are banned, gone for good. Nothing I, nor any theory on a website can do to change the facts. They were cool. Yet I'm still here, enjoying neocron, waiting for NC2 which I have faith will be worth the wait.
Gotterdammerung
08-08-04, 07:40
I understand about you being friends with them, I may have even known & liked some in-game and maybe they were cool to play with. The point is that you can't view it from a skewed perspective. If first it's "well i only exploited a little cause all i was able to do was access my golden toilet from anyplace in the game. whats so bad about that, all my clannies are doing it" then it develops into "wow i just found a way to wear womens lingeree in game that gives me uber resists" or some such thing it just isn't kosher. Because it just keeps progressing and in the minds of those doing it it "just isn't that bad" as long as they are getting away with it and it is benefitting themselves & probably their clannies too.
Some of them may be great guys, some may have done more the the toilet bowl scam, some may have done just that. The thing is, is that this game and it's customer/company relationship is based on trust. That 1 thing they did, that file they altered, and the legnths they went to to cover it up was a breech of that trust. They wrecked it for themselves, not us.
And if it really was the toilet bowl scam then thats pretty sad that they jeopardized their stature in a game they love by cheating with something that probably had no effect on their pvp skills. But since the damage is done, any rep they had is dirtied, everyone thinks 'oh, the reason ***** pwnz0r3d me in pepper park was because he cheats"
I understand about you being friends with them, I may have even known & liked some in-game and maybe they were cool to play with. The point is that you can't view it from a skewed perspective. If first it's "well i only exploited a little cause all i was able to do was access my golden toilet from anyplace in the game. whats so bad about that, all my clannies are doing it" then it develops into "wow i just found a way to were womens lingeree in game that gives me uber resists" or some such thing it just isn't kosher. Because it just keeps progressing and in the minds of those doing it it "just isn't that bad" as long as they are getting away with it and it is benefitting themselves & probably their clannies too.
Some of them may be great guys, some may have done more the the toilet bowl scam, some may have done just that. The thing is, is that this game and it's customer/company relationship is based on trust. That 1 thing they did, that file they altered, and the legnths they went to to cover it up was a breech of that trust. They wrecked it for themselves, not us.
And if it really was the toilet bowl scam then thats pretty sad that they jeopardized their stature in a game they love by cheating with something that probably had no effect on their pvp skills. But since the damage is done, any rep they had is dirtied, everyone thinks 'oh, the reason ***** pwnz0r3d me in pepper park was because he cheats"
I'll agree a progression of exploiting isn't tollerable, by any means. Most of them were great guys, some of them were indeed scammers. Things worked out as they did, thus why they are banned today.
As for skewwed view, well, I can't say I have one. I hate exploiters in general, thus why I do report them frequently (with little result it seems). I trust KK will do something about any future exploiters thus why I haven't stopped reporting such things when they arise. And as for those who got banned, I actually had no idea as to what they were doing, until the day they got banned and explained why they were perma banned.
Like I said, it's done. Over with, time to move on. Time to find some good people to play alongside and enjoy Neocron till it's fun no more.
THE_TICK!!!!
08-08-04, 07:51
I find the "Those who were banned SHOULD BE unbanned because Reakktor
didnt get the file information legally and there for the file data they got on all
users isn't valid" part hillarious.
Sorry that stupid ass logic only work over in the US with their fucked up
justice system. On this side of the pond common sense > paragraphs.
what is it with you people !! why is it that you ALWAYS got to bash the US..no wonder ya'll think we are assholes...what choice do we have :)
trigger hurt
08-08-04, 07:53
I understand about you being friends with them, I may have even known & liked some in-game and maybe they were cool to play with. The point is that you can't view it from a skewed perspective. If first it's "well i only exploited a little cause all i was able to do was access my golden toilet from anyplace in the game. whats so bad about that, all my clannies are doing it" then it develops into "wow i just found a way to wear womens lingeree in game that gives me uber resists" or some such thing it just isn't kosher. Because it just keeps progressing and in the minds of those doing it it "just isn't that bad" as long as they are getting away with it and it is benefitting themselves & probably their clannies too.
Some of them may be great guys, some may have done more the the toilet bowl scam, some may have done just that. The thing is, is that this game and it's customer/company relationship is based on trust. That 1 thing they did, that file they altered, and the legnths they went to to cover it up was a breech of that trust. They wrecked it for themselves, not us.
And if it really was the toilet bowl scam then thats pretty sad that they jeopardized their stature in a game they love by cheating with something that probably had no effect on their pvp skills. But since the damage is done, any rep they had is dirtied, everyone thinks 'oh, the reason ***** pwnz0r3d me in pepper park was because he cheats"
Like i said. I have no qualms with the method used to discover them. As much as it pains, Nidhogg is right, however...the statement was made that all offenders, no matter the exploit being used, would be banned, but not everyone has been banned. Of course, they made sure to get rid of some of the people that the server termed as bad apples, but it still remains that there are a few people who had more than the ability to use a feature of the game anywhere in the world are still playing this game and noone seems to think that they did anything wrong. If reakktor are indeed banning everyone that exploits/hacks, why are these people still around?
At least on person, specifically, decompiled the client and coded a hack and used it to his advantage, but he's still here.
trigger hurt
08-08-04, 07:54
what is it with you people !! why is it that you ALWAYS got to bash the US..no wonder ya'll think we are assholes...what choice do we have :)
I think it has to do with some type of insecurity. Or maybe it's the shitty weather, year round.
It's not a case of "oh so what they had a cheat that allowed them to access their famous golden toilet from anyplace in game, big deal. so all that did was allow them to crap anyplace in the map they wanted to without having to go back to the can to hit it".
If that "Golden Toiled" is the vehicle depot, then i may have some sceenshots to send in to you...
Dirk_Gently
08-08-04, 11:05
I'd take my chances on those banned players that I played alongside for a decent amount of months
lol cheating on a mmorpg is quite possibly the most pathetic thing that you can do. It's just so unbelievably childish and pointless.
I wouldn't take my chances with them, I'd book them into therapy so they can work out the deep feelings of inadequacy that clearly blight their lives.
what is it with you people !! why is it that you ALWAYS got to bash the US..no wonder ya'll think we are assholes...what choice do we have :)
I didnt bash US I bashed its.... nvm.. The ones who was supposed to get it
got it, walk around with your panties in a twist all you want.
lol cheating on a mmorpg is quite possibly the most pathetic thing that you can do. It's just so unbelievably childish and pointless.
I wouldn't take my chances with them, I'd book them into therapy so they can work out the deep feelings of inadequacy that clearly blight their lives.
well you are not me, therefore I rather trust them than a company, who once again, said DoY was going to be a free expansion out a little while after NC's release.
irony that you say it's childish, but in the next sentence you suggest they go to therapy over a video game. O_o
the next sentence you suggest they go to therapy over a video game. O_o
Some adults have to take therapy because of childish things, like playing Evercrack 24/7..
Dirk_Gently
08-08-04, 19:25
irony that you say it's childish, but in the next sentence you suggest they go to therapy over a video game. O_o
The inability to play with others is a very good marker for diagnosing psychological problems in kids. Therefore if they are unable to play with others in a video game then maybe they should consider help.
How is that childish??
The inability to play with others is a very good marker for diagnosing psychological problems in kids. Therefore if they are unable to play with others in a video game then maybe they should consider help.
How is that childish??
they did play with others, I was in a clan with them... you fail to make a decent point.
I already said why it was childish... ;)
Some adults have to take therapy because of childish things, like playing Evercrack 24/7..
err wow lol
I dont expect Windows XP to send a file off to Microsoft every now and then to check if its legit)
See, we expect Neocron (client.exe) to transfer data packets not to transfer files. computer.
ROTFLMAO
You **do** realize that WinXP performs several copyright checks on bootup and periodically during updates don't you? If you have an invalid CD key or an overused one, it will be invalidated by Microsoft. A lot of people raised a stink about this when it first came out, but windows, WMP, The Office Suite, MSN Messenger and a LOT of microsoft products send your telemetry back to Micro$oft on a regular basis, when errors occur, or when doing authenticity checks.
Lol newb.
Dirk_Gently
08-08-04, 22:20
they did play with others, I was in a clan with them... you fail to make a decent point.
I already said why it was childish... ;)
Actually you didn't say why it was childish, you just smirked. I presume you were implying I was childish for suggesting that people who feel the need to cheat on something as utterly unimportant as an online game need help. I can understand the temptation to cheat to win something tangible, however doing it to gain an unfair advantage over other people in a game??? You think that is normal behaviour??
Playing with others involves playing with everyone, not just their other exploiting mates and the innocent bystanders that they choose to hang around with. By definition if they are seeking to gain an unfair advantage they aren't playing with others, they are giving themselves a situation where others haven't got a chance to play with them. Therefore they are displaying anti-social behaviour to a worryingly high level and would do themselves a favour by getting help to address that now so it doesn't affect their lives later on.
I fail to see what you can't understand about this, it's perfectly simple.
Promethius
08-08-04, 22:25
Playing with others involves playing with everyone, not just their other exploiting mates and the innocent bystanders that they choose to hang around with. By definition if they are seeking to gain an unfair advantage they aren't playing with others, they are giving themselves a situation where others haven't got a chance to play with them. Therefore they are displaying anti-social behaviour to a worryingly high level and would do themselves a favour by getting help to address that now so it doesn't affect their lives later on.
I fail to see what you can't understand about this, it's perfectly simple.
So cheating in an online game = anti-social behavior requireing them the seek help not to fuck up there life later on.
*glances at Counter-strike*
Them therapists are raking in the $$ from them 'anti-social' people huh?
-Prom
Dirk_Gently
08-08-04, 22:29
So cheating in an online game = anti-social behavior requireing them the seek help not to fuck up there life later on.
*glances at Counter-strike*
Them therapists are raking in the $$ from them 'anti-social' people huh?
-Prom.
lol yep i would imagine they are.
Actually you didn't say why it was childish, you just smirked. I presume you were implying I was childish for suggesting that people who feel the need to cheat on something as utterly unimportant as an online game need help. I can understand the temptation to cheat to win something tangible, however doing it to gain an unfair advantage over other people in a game??? You think that is normal behaviour??
Playing with others involves playing with everyone, not just their other exploiting mates and the innocent bystanders that they choose to hang around with. By definition if they are seeking to gain an unfair advantage they aren't playing with others, they are giving themselves a situation where others haven't got a chance to play with them. Therefore they are displaying anti-social behaviour to a worryingly high level and would do themselves a favour by getting help to address that now so it doesn't affect their lives later on.
I fail to see what you can't understand about this, it's perfectly simple.
actually yes I did state it
irony that you say it's childish, but in the next sentence you suggest they go to therapy over a video game.
Irony, that you say it's childish... then you yourself make a childish statement saying some people who got banned from a video game for exploiting go to therapy? Like that would solve anything? That seemed a bit childish if anything. And you have no point whatsoever, prom hit the nail on the head.
Playing video games can be anti-social behaviour, why don't we all go see a therapist :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ^^ err huhu hrhr and other non sense things
Dirk_Gently
08-08-04, 22:43
actually yes I did state it
irony that you say it's childish, but in the next sentence you suggest they go to therapy over a video game.
Irony, that you say it's childish... then you yourself make a childish statement saying some people who got banned from a video game for exploiting go to therapy? Like that would solve anything? That seemed a bit childish if anything. And you have no point whatsoever, prom hit the nail on the head.
Playing video games can be anti-social behaviour, why don't we all go see a therapist :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ^^ err huhu hrhr and other non sense thingsFirstly that wouldn't be ironic that would be hypocritical. (Irony meaning the intention to convey the opposite of the literal meaning of the words said) Me saying "Yeah, that's really mature" would be irony. [ edited ]
Secondly if you cheat in a video game, so screwing over other people who pay money to play then how is that different to stealing from the local store or defrauding people out of money??? Or are they OK to you too.
Thirdly, if you take a video game seriously enough to screw around finding exploits and coding cheats then you clearly take it far to seriously. If you take it far too seriously then it becomes more than a "game" to you. Are you saying that doesn't require you get help??
Fourthly video games can often be un-social behaviour as some people sit around on their own playing them for hours a day. To be anti-social you have to do something to other people.
Fifthly, I have made a series of "points" whereas you just seem pissed that your mates got banned for cheating.
Firstly that wouldn't be ironic that would be hypocritical. (Irony meaning the intention to convey the opposite of the literal meaning of the words said) Me saying "Yeah, that's really mature" would be irony. [ edited ].
Oh! oh! oh! Cheap shots! Cheap shots! Can I join in? This looks like so much
fun! :D
Dirk_Gently
08-08-04, 22:48
Oh! oh! oh! Cheap shots! Cheap shots! Can I join in? This looks like so much
fun! :D
Absolutely. Everybody is welcome.
We are going for point-scoring now. :p
I eat big donuts! yum yum yum!
Promethius
08-08-04, 22:53
Firstly that wouldn't be ironic that would be hypocritical. (Irony meaning the intention to convey the opposite of the literal meaning of the words said) Me saying "Yeah, that's really mature" would be irony. [ edited ].
Well if were gunna be throwing the cheap shots.
[ edited ].
-Prom
Dirk_Gently
08-08-04, 23:00
Well if were gunna be throwing the cheap shots.
[ edited ].
-Prom
Both are acceptable :wtf:
I accept I used the new world structure though...naughty me. ;)
Promethius and Dirk_Gently take it to PM's.
Please get back on topic.
V
Firstly that wouldn't be ironic that would be hypocritical. (Irony meaning the intention to convey the opposite of the literal meaning of the words said) Me saying "Yeah, that's really mature" would be irony. [Edited]
Secondly if you cheat in a video game, so screwing over other people who pay money to play then how is that different to stealing from the local store or defrauding people out of money??? Or are they OK to you too.
Thirdly, if you take a video game seriously enough to screw around finding exploits and coding cheats then you clearly take it far to seriously. If you take it far too seriously then it becomes more than a "game" to you. Are you saying that doesn't require you get help??
Fourthly video games can often be un-social behaviour as some people sit around on their own playing them for hours a day. To be anti-social you have to do something to other people.
Fifthly, I have made a series of "points" whereas you just seem pissed that your mates got banned for cheating.
I'm not pissed they got banned (don't know where you got this assumption from), so don't put words in my mouth. I know what irony means, it is ironic that you call someone else childish, where as what you said was quite childish. Not sure how much more clearer I could put it for you, but well tough luck if I failed to understand such a simple thing. I never said stealing from a store was ok, now did I? Once again, don't put words in my mouth.
I'm not a doctor phil or a therapist. Neither are you (unless you are actually studying to be one, then you would be) Finding exploits doesn't require anyone to get help. There are those kind of people (whom exploit) that either...
a) suck at the game and require a cheat to greatly improve there gameplay b) are bored and decides to have some fun by breaking rules
c) are pissed off and decide to exploit
'Fourthly video games can often be un-social behaviour as some people sit around on their own playing them for hours a day. To be anti-social you have to do something to other people.'
well, so what would you call a kid that doesn't talk to other people, hates being around people (for example). Refuses to be socially involved. Un-social? I'd say that's more like anti-social...
Please don't put words in my mouth that I've never said... really no need for that, now is there?
(ya I took a while to respond, but i'm busy playing neocron :D )
I have a strong feeling that this thread is not going to get back on topic, therefore. . .
Thread closed.
V
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